Black Panther Annual #1 *spoilers*

[bluedmighty]

GREAT read.

We start off in space at the Wathcher's place.

One of the Golden frogs appears next to his foot and gets his attention.
The Frog tells the Watcher that it has been watching him just as long as the Watcher had been watching them. They begin to have a descussion about the Watcher's prophecy in Fantastc Four regarding the Kingdom of Wakanda and it's future.

The Frog asks how the Watcher knows all this, and asks if he's seen it.
The Wathcher tells the frog that he does not have visions or travel through time like the Frog does. Instead, he relies on experience and probability. He knew that T'challa and Ororo would be the foundation of a dynasty, and that dynasty would change the course of Humanity

We then drop into Future Wakanda.

It is the wedding day of T'challa's oldest son, and there is a great celebration. The Black Panther appears in typical Wakandan flare, by leaping out of the Totem's mouth.

We then flip to the Palace. King T'challa is seen prepping some of his children for the day's festivities. He tells to keep the family drama to a minnimum, and then asks where the youngest is. Of course no one knows.

Next, we see Storm enjoying the breeze as she floats in the country.
T'challa pages her and asks where she is. She tells him she is "Just floating".
She says it's nice to not be rushing off to beat people up. He tells her that she is going to wear herself out before the wedding. She tells him that she is renewing herself before she has to smile at "those people". They have a father mother talk about each's attitude and approach to the wedding. Storm feels that T'challa only sees the Pollitical advantage/importance of the union. While T'challa says she's just being overprotective of her first born Cub.

He then tells her that their youngest, T'wari, is missing. Storm flies off to find him, while her and the Panther exchange words about the Boys' differences. T'challa's twin daughters, who look like their mom, say that they could have found him. T'challa tells them it's not about finding him, it's about the conversation to be had when he's found.

We then see T'wari sitting on a rock as his mother shows up. He tells his mother he's not going, and she asks him what could be worth hurting your family and your friends by not attending?

He says he sees what his father is doing, trying to make nice with the Americans. He asks why do they have to work with other countries, they are a warrior peolpe. Queen Ro tells him that is how Wakanda saved its soul.

Ororo then gives us a history lesson envolving Wakanda and the European powers that be. We see one of the first Black Panthers, and are shown how Wakanda remained sovriegn in the midst of colonization and slave trade.

Next we are shown that Pax Americana began to conquer nations. It was easy for them to garner support at first. They invaded Latveria and killed Doom, then they destroyed Atlantis out of the public eye. Wakanda had way too many resources, and way to much wealth to be left alone, which led to a war against the United States.

In the final battle, The two totems (a Giant Robot Iron Man, and a Giant Pantherbot) fought. The Ironman shot a beam and sliced off the Pantherbot's left arm. At the same time the Pantherbot leaps onto Ironman's chest knocking him down and bitting his throat.

As it turned out, at the end of the battle, Toney was linked to his Avatar to the point that he sustained the same injuries. After that, the war was over. T'challa in his last official act as Black Panther brokered a peace that lasts to this day.

Other Highlights:

Shuri, T'challa's sister became the first Woman to wear the cerimonial Panther garb in a long time, and was the most powerful Black Panther in history.

T'challa's son married "Baby" Cage.

Luke was President of the United States.

Woverine was big and fat.

The four most powerful words in existance, "Leave it to Storm" :D

Those Frogs sure don't like Wakandans.

Also, the introduction of King Solomon at the end was cool, and makes it seem that there is a default diminsion for the frogs when they're not causing trouble for the King and his Queen.


Yeah,

10/10

[GalactaSurfer]

Awesome issue but i wash we got to see some action with Black Panther Suri, maybe a side story or some thing.

[bluedmighty]

Well,

Now they have their own established alternate universe to pull from, I wouldn't be surprised to see BP Shuri or the kids pop up in the 616.

The King Solomon scene gives me the feeling that we'll be seeing all theses guys again at some point.

Is this the first appearance of King Solomon in the MU?

[drwho]

So now the golden teleporting frogs are on the cosmic level of the Watcher? That is laughable in my opinion. Now I wonder if they are ever going to explain more about the frogs.

[Yaw]

So now the golden teleporting frogs are on the cosmic level of the Watcher? That is laughable in my opinion. Now I wonder if they are ever going to explain more about the frogs.

Since their inception the frogs nonsensically have transported individuals thru different dimensions. McDuffie was the first to imply they were actually sentient. Hudlin was the first to actually make them sentient. Nevertheless all the frogs do is travel through time and space and possibly bring others along for the ride. Jack Kirby is the one who introduced the frogs.

[Come To Deathstrike]

I siad I wouldn't get into it.
But it's the worst thing I've read since the Draco.

They destroy Latveria, But can't beat wakanda.
Doom would put up FAR more of a fight than the Panther.

Not to mention the fact that it was resolved with robots.
And why would iron man link himself to his robot.
That was a terrible resolution.
If they'd have just gave it a normal robo-fight it would have been better.

And they destroyed Atlantis.
Oh. You mean that one the was already destroyed?

OH, the cosmically powered frogs are just. . . .I can't even mention them seriously.

All the slavery and colonization was FAR too heavy-handed.
IT became almost parody of what people said the book was becoming.

So those are MY points.

Oh and,the art was pretty and Storm has cool powers (not like she used them much mind you)

Oh and I'm NOT a hater,I just thought it was terrible.
It sits upon my living room chair, far far away from me.

Now time for discussion.:)

[BoneMonkey]

black to the future ? ........ is that a joke lol

[drwho]

Well,

Now they have their own established alternate universe to pull from, I wouldn't be surprised to see BP Shuri or the kids pop up in the 616.

The King Solomon scene gives me the feeling that we'll be seeing all theses guys again at some point.

Is this the first appearance of King Solomon in the MU?

Didn't the frogs originally belong to King Solomon when they were introduced? I'm gonna stop while I am ahead because reading the spoilers pretty much get me hyped up in a bad way and hit the wrong buttons with me if Hudlin wrote this annual because it seems like the same old schtick. I will say no more. Can't wait for Storm to turn out to be a skrull. lol

[worstblogever]

Hudlin wants King Solomon to become an important character. You know, so he can appear to concede to T'Challa that he's the wisest king ever.

Fits into the Hudlin fanwank perfectly.

[bluedmighty]

black to the future ? ........ is that a joke lol

It's a play on words.

Didn't the frogs originally belong to King Solomon when they were introduced?

Yes, and they still do.

However,

When they were first introduced by Jack Kirby they were a 2 part mechenism. They were a gift to King Solomon.

In this incarnation the frogs are sentient, and appear to come and go as they please.

[GalactaSurfer]

I dont understand why people think all the History stuff was heavy handed, it was well woven into Wakandan history.
I get them feeling that people are just uncomfortable with the subject of African history, no surpirse there.

[PamGrierOverdrive]

The whole issue stink stank stunk. I'd like to start a campaign to get Priest back on Black Panther the way some folks campaigned to get Hal Jordan back as Green Lantern several years ago.

[Brian M.]

I dont understand why people think all the History stuff was heavy handed, it was well woven into Wakandan history.
I get them feeling that people are just uncomfortable with the subject of African history, no surpirse there.

Ok seriously...lets not start w/ the racial undertones.

I got the issue, the only BP issue I've read since the HoM tie-in, which I thought was one of the best ones. Was it me or was this book solicited as a glimpse into the future of Wakanda? While we got a glimpse into it, I feel like this story was nothing but a what-if one-shot. Why get it if it doesn't tie into the main story? Yea you learned a little bit about the past of Wakanda and such...but unless that is going to directly tie into some upcoming stories, I just don't get why you put it in a book that is suppose to be about the future. I think I'm making sense, I'm trying too.

The art...the art was fantastic. I loved it. As corny as the fights were, they were beautifully drawn.

I don't know if I'll pick up another issue of BP or not. Hudlin's writing and characterization didn't really grab me or convince me his BP is an interesting character.

[bluedmighty]

I dont understand why people think all the History stuff was heavy handed, it was well woven into Wakandan history.
I get them feeling that people are just uncomfortable with the subject of African history, no surpirse there.

Not only that, but Mr. Hudlin DARED to take it there.

I don't think there has everbeen an attempt to explain, in story, how Wakanda managed to remain independant in the midst of such turmoil.

Rather than just say that Wakanda is technologically advanced, mighty, and undefeated, Hudlin has shown us that these weren't just some "Natives" that hapened onto Vibranium and "blew up". Wakanda was international back during the "Triangle" and worked to subvert slavery in many ways.

[Deus ex Chris]

I get them feeling that people are just uncomfortable with the subject of African history, no surpirse there.
Give me a break. Hudlin is a bad writer. That's what people are uncomfortable with.

[GalactaSurfer]

Ok seriously...lets not start w/ the racial undertones.

I got the issue, the only BP issue I've read since the HoM tie-in, which I thought was one of the best ones. Was it me or was this book solicited as a glimpse into the future of Wakanda? While we got a glimpse into it, I feel like this story was nothing but a what-if one-shot. Why get it if it doesn't tie into the main story? Yea you learned a little bit about the past of Wakanda and such...but unless that is going to directly tie into some upcoming stories, I just don't get why you put it in a book that is suppose to be about the future. I think I'm making sense, I'm trying too.

The art...the art was fantastic. I loved it. As corny as the fights were, they were beautifully drawn.

I don't know if I'll pick up another issue of BP or not. Hudlin's writing and characterization didn't really grab me or convince me his BP is an interesting character.

Sooooooooo how was the Historical stuff heavy handed?

Im not starting with any racial undertones I was simply asking why people see it that way. I mention peolpe being incomfortable with the subject because the story didnt feel heavy at all.

[Brian M.]

Sooooooooo how was the Historical stuff heavy handed?

Im not starting with any racial undertones I was simply asking why people see it that way. I mention peolpe being incomfortable with the subject because the story didnt feel heavy at all.

I didn't care about the history, it's good to finally get that out there, but I bought this book based on the solicit, which I remember correctly was what where Wakanda was 20+ years from now and how it got there. Again, my memory could be wrong but I believe that's what it said. That's why I bought the issue, I was hoping to get a glimpse of some plotlines Hudlin was gonna touch upon in upcoming arcs. Instead it felt like a What If One Shot that does nothing for the main ongoing.

[GalactaSurfer]

Give me a break. Hudlin is a bad writer. That's what people are uncomfortable with.

He not a great writer but hes not a bad one either i could agree tha hes a mediocre writer and there are TONS of writers in the biz that are mediocre and they dont get have the shiznit that Hudlin gets.

People bitch even when the stories are decent!

People keep saying that his writing is bad but what i really hear is the problems people have with the subject matter. Now i could agree that the subject matter isnt always given the treatment that it really desrves but this is a comic. A comic that geared towards people who want to have that type of thing in their stories.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Sooooooooo how was the Historical stuff heavy handed?

Im not starting with any racial undertones I was simply asking why people see it that way. I mention peolpe being incomfortable with the subject because the story didnt feel heavy at all.

Having not read the issue, I wouldn't be surprised if it was a knee jerk reaction to Hudlin's writing, given that the plot sounds like a was Hudlin's default story.

"Outside, imperialist world envies Wakanda, attacks and gets beaten by Panther/Wakanda's awesomeness."

That was the point of the first arc, the House of M issue and Arabian Cliche...I mean Knight, attacking Panther when he was talking to Storm and proposing. That's a hella lot of plots focused on just one narrow theme, especially given trade writing and how little time T'Challa's spent in Wakanda. Same story, same complaints.

Whether they're valid, of course, is another matter.

[PamGrierOverdrive]

Rather than just say that Wakanda is technologically advanced, mighty, and undefeated, Hudlin has shown us that these weren't just some "Natives" that hapened onto Vibranium and "blew up". Wakanda was international back during the "Triangle" and worked to subvert slavery in many ways.


I would love to read a story detailing that. Unfortunately, all we've gotten is bad dialogue and uninteresting characterization.

[Deus ex Chris]

He not a great writer but hes not a bad one either i could agree tha hes a mediocre writer and there are TONS of writers in the biz that are mediocre and they dont get have the shiznit that Hudlin gets.
No, others definitely get shit.

People bitch even when the stories are decent!
They haven't been decent. The only story by Hudlin that I've read and enjoyed was the House of M tie-in. That was fun. Everything else has been disappointing. Of course, he has good moments but never enough to make a good issue. I continue to read because I love Storm and the good moments give me hope that maybe he'll eventually have a good issue.


People keep saying that his writing is bad but what i really hear is the problems people have with the subject matter.
People have problems with the way the subject matter is handled. You're just hearing what you want to hear.

Now i could agree that the subject matter isnt always given the treatment that it really desrves but this is a comic. A comic that geared towards people who want to have that type of thing in their stories.
That isn't really an excuse. Plenty of writers have used comic books as a platform to explore controversy and social issues in general and have done it well. Hudlin hasn't. I love much of the subject matter and think he's had some interesting ideas--the MLK and Malcolm X Skrulls being one of them. I just don't think he's done a good job with them.

[Come To Deathstrike]

He not a great writer but hes not a bad one either i could agree tha hes a mediocre writer and there are TONS of writers in the biz that are mediocre and they dont get have the shiznit that Hudlin gets.


When people don't like the stories, They're pretty vocal about it.
One More Day,Most Of Ultimate X-Men,Ultimates, Austen.
He was given a chance to do his thing on the book, And it hasn't worked.
It's not shifting a hell of a lot either.

People bitch even when the stories are decent!

Apart from House of M tie - in.
I haven't enjoyed any of the ones i read.
(Note: Haven't been on the pull list for a while. I read them in-store)

People keep saying that his writing is bad but what i really hear is the problems people have with the subject matter.

Controversial subject matter always makes the best stories.
They've been dealt with in other places subtly and effectively, and as less of a "Every issue"
Here, it's the same themes, in every issue of every arc.
It's tedious.


Now i could agree that the subject matter isnt always given the treatment that it really deserves but this is a comic. A comic that geared towards people who want to have that type of thing in their stories.

"it's a comic" aint no excuse.
Comics can be touching, hilarious, or anything. They can do anything a book/film/piece of music/anything else can.

Hudlin's just got no execution on this thing.
Maybe he'll deal out some more of those Malcolm X skrulls in secret Invasion.
I enjoyed them far mroe than Robo-Panther.


Edit: Well I basically said what D.E.C.did. lol

[HepOne]

I got the issue, the only BP issue I've read since the HoM tie-in, which I thought was one of the best ones. Was it me or was this book solicited as a glimpse into the future of Wakanda? While we got a glimpse into it, I feel like this story was nothing but a what-if one-shot. Why get it if it doesn't tie into the main story? Yea you learned a little bit about the past of Wakanda and such...but unless that is going to directly tie into some upcoming stories, I just don't get why you put it in a book that is suppose to be about the future. I think I'm making sense, I'm trying too.

Isn't EVERY single issue of Immortal Iron Fist and the tangential one shots based off the EXACT same premise?

[RolandJP]

I enjoyed the issue. It was the perfect treat for black history month, And I believe the only comic dealing with the subject of African slavery since Milestone's Icon.

I feel as though you will enjoy the book more if you watch the BBC mini-series Shaka Zulu before reading the comic--It adds to the enjoyment of the book.

[PamGrierOverdrive]

No offense, but I've seen Shaka Zulu and I still think this book blew. Maybe the problem was the limited format. Hudlin tried to squeeze the Uatu sub-plot, family introductions, a history lesson, a brief recap of the future of the Marvel U., and a wedding ceremony all into one comic. These story threads could have been fleshed out more in the monthly instead of that asinine Fantastic Four crap.

[Brian M.]

Isn't EVERY single issue of Immortal Iron Fist and the tangential one shots based off the EXACT same premise?

I don't read that book...so I don't know.

[XPac]

Honestly, I really wanted to like this book but it didn't wow me.

It was certainly an interesting read, but it felt more like I was reading something out of the Marvel Handbook, or maybe a wiki. The history lesson was interesting, but I didn't feel like I was reading a comic book (let alone a comic with a 4 dollar price tage).

Honestly, I think they just should have had the annual about the female Black Panther (she looked pretty cool), and saved the 4 dollar history lesson as a back up story.

If it's a tribute to black history month, then I can understand why they did it the way they did. But honestly don't think I got bang for my buck here. Though I ended up buying it anyways since I wanted to support BP, so I suppose I have no one to blame but myself.

My other tiny tiny issue with the book is that it felt more like a What If than anything else. You can't not feel that way after seeing a dead Dr. Doom. But that's a small thing... I do see why they did that.

[Brian M.]

Honestly, I really wanted to like this book but it didn't wow me.

It was certainly an interesting read, but it felt more like I was reading something out of the Marvel Handbook, or maybe a wiki. The history lesson was interesting, but I didn't feel like I was reading a comic book (let alone a comic with a 4 dollar price tage).

Honestly, I think they just should have had the annual about the female Black Panther (she looked pretty cool), and saved the 4 dollar history lesson as a back up story.

If it's a tribute to black history month, then I can understand why they did it the way they did. But honestly don't think I got bang for my buck here. Though I ended up buying it anyways since I wanted to support BP, so I suppose I have no one to blame but myself.

My other tiny tiny issue with the book is that it felt more like a What If than anything else. You can't not feel that way after seeing a dead Dr. Doom. But that's a small thing... I do see why they did that.

That sums up a lot of my feelings too.

I did buy the last one in my LCS...so it sold out where I was.

[Sanctus]

The book was good, not the greatest, but good. I walked away happy from it. Actually I was more happy with it than the NA Annual. Hudlin gets a lot of flacks, but I think that the book has been solid for a while and the annual was as well.

[worstblogever]

My problem with this annual, and Hudlin's run, is very early on it became very clear to me that T'Challa will not lose. He won't be maimed. He won't even get a bloody nose.

And when the lead character is never in jeopardy, the conflict is null. And when the conflict is null, the book is dull. It's getting ridiculously stale, to the point where its Hudlin's fan-fiction.

I've seen cosmically powered characters in jeopardy. But not T'Challa. And it's not like he's picking D-Listers to fight every month. From his fanatical bodyguards, to his endless resources and myriad of tech and magical devices, to his entire nation's political might, to his weather goddess of a wife... he's got every angle covered.

Of course, that makes it incredibly boring. Some would compare him to other icons, like Batman or Stark... but come on, Batman gets the crap kicked out of him sometimes. Stark is getting pulled in a billion directions and can't keep up.

Meanwhile, T'Challa's been warned to get home and run his country without any penalty by the village elders for the past year of comics. And who's going to be a threat? Killmonger? PUH-LEASE.

Secret Invasion and a Skrull infiltration is the only hope this book has for improving. That, or another writer. Of course, the Skrulls in Wakanda will probably turn out to be the Malcolm & MLK Skrulls and T'Challa will just go out drinking with them instead of them trying to kill him. Just watch.

[Capt USA]

The Good.

Most of the historical aspect of the storyline, somewhat unbelieveable (mostly about the part where the wakandan king basically allowed slavery because it wasn't worth the effort to fight it even though they would probably win...yea, right)

But beyond that, the historical stuff was good, I liked that aspect of the story.

The interaction between the family, it was a nice scene very good, good dialogue etc.

The Ehh....
The actual wedding...yep a fat wolverine was funny, although I imagine his healing factor probably prevents that from being a reality, not to mention his bones wouldn't expand enough to be that fat. the rest was more a take it or leave it type of thing.


The Just no, please no.
The entire war with the u.s., cage as president (Sam Wilson I could see, but not Cage) The totem fight, the ease that Wakandan won the war is ridiculous. Sorry but Wakandan doesn't have the resources to fight the U.S. on their own, it's been portrayed many times that they need to use backdoor politics, alliances etc just to prevent a U.S. invasion from happening. They are a rich country, but don't have the population, and since a lot of their wealth is tied up in "money" not useful resources(except Vibranium) they couldn't wage a war that is based upon army, minerals and sheer firepower.

The once again making Stark appear to be an idiot, and a power hungary maniac at that. Seriously if Stark wanted to take out Wakandan, there is absolutely zero that T'Challa could do to prevent it.

[worstblogever]

The Good.

Most of the historical aspect of the storyline, somewhat unbelieveable (mostly about the part where the wakandan king basically allowed slavery because it wasn't worth the effort to fight it even though they would probably win...yea, right)

But beyond that, the historical stuff was good, I liked that aspect of the story.

The interaction between the family, it was a nice scene very good, good dialogue etc.

The Ehh....
The actual wedding...yep a fat wolverine was funny, although I imagine his healing factor probably prevents that from being a reality, not to mention his bones wouldn't expand enough to be that fat. the rest was more a take it or leave it type of thing.


The Just no, please no.
The entire war with the u.s., cage as president (Sam Wilson I could see, but not Cage) The totem fight, the ease that Wakandan won the war is ridiculous. Sorry but Wakandan doesn't have the resources to fight the U.S. on their own, it's been portrayed many times that they need to use backdoor politics, alliances etc just to prevent a U.S. invasion from happening. They are a rich country, but don't have the population, and since a lot of their wealth is tied up in "money" not useful resources(except Vibranium) they couldn't wage a war that is based upon army, minerals and sheer firepower.

The once again making Stark appear to be an idiot, and a power hungary maniac at that. Seriously if Stark wanted to take out Wakandan, there is absolutely zero that T'Challa could do to prevent it.

Speaking of fat Wolverine... sure that's funny. But wasn't it funnier back when Alex Ross and Jim Krueger did it back during the Earth X maxi-series? Just like when they married Storm & Black Panther then?

Just pointing out, someone's riding someone else's coattails when they do write something worth saying it's good.

[bulbasteve]

Sooooooooo how was the Historical stuff heavy handed?

Im not starting with any racial undertones I was simply asking why people see it that way. I mention peolpe being incomfortable with the subject because the story didnt feel heavy at all.

That panel with the giant stained glass window of Jesus was pretty dang on the nose don't you think?

What we mean by heavy handed I think is simply lacking subtlety. When you have Malcom X and MLK as Skrulls you have really...really decided to just not even bother with subtle storytelling anymore.

Speaking of fat Wolverine... sure that's funny. But wasn't it funnier back when Alex Ross and Jim Krueger did it back during the Earth X maxi-series? Just like when they married Storm & Black Panther then?

Just pointing out, someone's riding someone else's coattails when they do write something worth saying it's good.

Now now be fair, the entire MU has been riding their coattails since it came out. :p

[StoneGold]

No offense, but I've seen Shaka Zulu and I still think this book blew. Maybe the problem was the limited format. Hudlin tried to squeeze the Uatu sub-plot, family introductions, a history lesson, a brief recap of the future of the Marvel U., and a wedding ceremony all into one comic. These story threads could have been fleshed out more in the monthly instead of that asinine Fantastic Four crap.

I can agree with that. I actually liked the Wakandan history lesson, but most of the rest was blech enough that it weighed down the good.


Also, the art got pretty bad on some pages. And I used to like Larry Stroman. Although it does explain what Strong Guy was doing at the wedding.


And what the hell was the Silver Surfer of all people doing with the Initiative forces? And where did everyone else go on the Wakandan attack? Just Tony? He's not that stupid. And he knows about the giant robot panthers.

[Titanium]

The thing that bothered me the most of the issue, I don't know why but was the Punisher being at the Wedding. In the front row. In a costume. Like it's no big deal. Like they just wanted to bring all the marvel big guns they could and fit them in a splash image.

Besides that, Hudlin's run has kinda sucked. A lot. Does he just not know anything about comics and the characters he throws in for no reason?

[StoneGold]

Besides that, Hudlin's run has kinda sucked. A lot. Does he just not know anything about comics and the characters he throws in for no reason?

Could have been Stroman throwing him in there. Last I remember Stroman working at Marvel, it was the early 90s, and Punisher was everywhere.

[DaeJi]

This read like a giant what if? story. Actually made it bearable. But not good. Or medicore even.

[Loren]

Ah, where to begin? How about with the most unequivocal complaint: why is a story billed as a "special double-sized issue" only 34 pages long? Shouldn't it be, y'know, twice the size? (I know, I know...the food is terrible, and such small portions.)

Here's the meat of the solicit:

It’s 2057 and the Watcher’s prediction came true: Wakanda is an Imperial Power steering the course for humanity’s future. As T’Challa prepares the next Black Panther for the great responsibility ahead, he must first reflect on the road traveled–a long and winding journey filled with surprises.

Did we see *any* of this in this issue? There's no indication that Wakanda is an imperial power (frankly, a good thing). There's little indication of Wakanda's influence on the global scale (other than characters stating 'Wakanda is important'). There is no next Black Panther. T'Challa doesn't prepare anybody. T'Challa doesn't reflect about anything. And although Storm does some reflecting, very little of it (~5 pages) is about the interim 50 years.

OK, perhaps we should just assume that Hudlin had nothing to do with the solicit, and that it was written by some Marvel hack who didn't bother to, y'know, read the issue they were summarizing. So we can't necessarily blame him for that. But we can blame him for this, the intro text in the annual:

"On the day of [T'Challa and Storm's] wedding, Uatu the Watcher appeared to witness the union. Because it is known that he appears only to record moments of great change and enormous upheaval, many thought that T'Challa and Ororo's marriage would change the world. And, as time would tell, it has...'

I thought Uatu's appearance at the wedding was lame the first time, as if Hudlin was trying to force the import of the moment on the reader ('This is important! I mean, really important! Look, Uatu himself is here, and he didn't even show up for Mr. Fantastic's wedding! And sure, Watchers usually don't show up for events that might one day lead to great change/upheaval, but that just shows how REALLY important this is!')

So, how has T'Challa and Storm's marriage changed the world, like page 2 says? Well...you don't really get any answers in the Annual. They had some kids, and Wakanda beat the US in a remarkably ill-thought-out invasion, and that's about it. Again, it's stated a time or two that Wakanda's important on the world stage, but we're never shown HOW. And there's nothing to indicate how STORM has helped change the world. (Similarly, it's stated that Shuri is the "most powerful Black Panther in history." No details, no evidence to back this up. It's just stated as being true. I'm almost impressed that Hudlin has managed to write a comic book for three whole years without bothering to learn the "Show, Don't Tell" rule of comic storytelling.)

So instead of getting any real sense of what the Wakanda of 2057 is like, or how our main characters have evolved, or how the MU of 2057 is different, we're mostly treated to two big flashbacks. In fact, the Annual is pretty much structured like so:

Framing Sequence A - Watcher & the Frog
Framing Sequence B - Wakanda 2057
Flashback 1 - Wakanda & Slavery
Framing Sequence B
Flashback 2 - Iron Man Invasion
Framing Sequence B
Framing Sequence A

Now some might want to disagree with the future segments being a framing sequence, but I think it's apt. There's only the bare scrapings of a plot there (BP's son is depressed about brother getting married, mom tells him stories, wedding happens). The entire future sequence seems to exist only to provide a narrator for the flashbacks, and to allow for the obligatory splash page of future cameos. Most of the issue is just Storm telling stories to T'Wari. T'Challa himself (y'know, the "Black Panther" of the "Black Panther Annual") appears on just a handful of pages. And to think that some people complain that Ross took too much attention away from T'Challa.

And why, with the future setting serving as a framing sequence, the Annual needed ANOTHER framing sequence to booked IT, that's just beyond me. Those pages could have been used to, y'know, say something insightful or interesting about the future, rather than to see a talking deus ex amphibian chat up Uatu.

Frankly, the whole thing is a smorgasboard of Hudlin's writing faults. I could go page-by-page, or I could just cite some big examples.

- Bad history. The European transatlantic slave trade pretty ended well before Europe started conquering and colonizing Africa. The Annual pretends as if both were happening simultaneously.

- Bad dialogue. T'Challa: "Mr. President." Cage: "Who've thunk it?" This exchange makes no sense in context; the annual has already established the families have a long, close relationship. Unless this is their first conversation after his election (and it can't be), this is terribly hackneyed dialogue. And it's just one example.

- Bad politics. For all the poor understanding of politics we've seen in Hudlin's BP, this may take the cake: the daughter of the President of the United States entering into a political marriage with the prince of a foreign kingdom. WTF?!? Do I even have to explain how antiquated and anachronistic this concept is, or how it's made even more nonsensical when it's the child of a temporary, elected leader?

- Bad continuity. And this isn't nitpicky continuity either; it's very, very broad. Tony Stark declares a very straightforward physical invasion of Wakanda with Iron Man robots. Y'know, pretty much the same kind of invasion that was tried by the US and failed in Hudlin's first arc. They apparently forgot that. And they get beat-down by Wakanda's superior technology, which Tony apparently...also forgot about. (Just to cite one example, say, the giant Wakandan battleship that T'Challa had several of in Priest's series. Including one laying in wait in the Hudson River.)

(And spinning off that last parenthetical, apparently in the future, nobody deals with practical battle weaponry anymore. The US has a giant Iron Man robot that it uses for serious military purposes, and Wakanda fights back with a giant Panther robot. Sure it looks cool, but it's the height of Silver Age silliness.)

Also, apparently the 'Black Panther Title Fight' from Hudlin's first arc is no longer part of Wakandan culture, since T'Challa apparently just *gave* the title to his sister. In one sense, that's good, because an unending sequence of physical brawls was a really, REALLY dumb way to choose a leader. On the other hand, changing it to this scraps the only decent aspect of it that Hudlin was aiming for in the first place, which was to bring some egalitarianism to Wakandan leadership. Apparently, Wakanda's back to being a hereditary monarchy. How 21st-century of them. Then again, if the US can start getting into the political marriage business in the future...

- Bad timing. The future setting is stated as being "several decades from now." Specifically, 2057. (And even if we ignore that, "several" is definitely more than "three.") So why does nobody look 50 years older? Storm, in particular, barely looks older at all. And since their kids look to be in their 20s, did they wait 20 years to have kids? And shouldn't President Luke Cage be, like, 80? Did somebody forget to do, well, ANY math about this?

- Bad characterization. Future T'Challa and Storm are given four children, two sons and two daughters. None of them are given any degree of characterization, beyond "T'Wari is kinda envious of his brother's fiance." The son actually getting married is given no characterization at all. The two daughters are not only given zero characterization, they're not even given NAMES.

- Same jokes. In the slavery sequence, there's a page where a character references Wakanda, followed by a panel of other characters staring in silence, followed by a panel of those same characters stating their awe over Wakanda. How many times has Hudlin used this exact pacing joke before? It feels like his trademark at this point.

- Same boring Wakanda. Hudlin's Wakanda of the future is the same dull utopia it is today. Everything's great there! Probably the reason why the biggest conflict the future Wakanda seems to suffer is one prince being a little jealous over his brother's wedding. But not so jealous that he's not OK with it after a talk with his mom. It doesn't exactly make for interesting reading.

- This point isn't a recurring theme, but there were a couple of things in this issue I simply didn't understand. What's with the 19th-century Storms? What exactly was the compromise the 19th century BP made?

---

Let's take a moment to compare the Annual with Priest's Black Panther #36-37, a future-set story that was originally pitched as an Annual.

Priest: Calls his story "The Once and Future King," a la TH White.
Hudlin: Calls his story "Black to the Future."

Priest: Gives T'Challa a son, T'Charra, and a daughter, Faida.
Hudlin: Gives T'Challa TWO sons, T'Chaka and T'Wari, and TWO daughters, who he doesn't bother to name.

Priest: Makes Sam "Falcon" Wilson the mayor of New York.
Hudlin: Makes Luke Cage the President of the United States.

Priest: Actually tells a story with a plot in the future.
Hudlin: Uses the future setting just to bookend flashbacks.

I think I may need to cleanse my palate by pulling out those issues and reading them again.

[Walter Hill]

Like Hudlin's writing and story telling or not -- a lot of people on this thread are sure buying his book. Just a fact.

[Deus ex Chris]

Like Hudlin's writing and story telling or not -- a lot of people on this thread are sure buying his book. Just a fact.
And yet Black Panther slides closer to cancellation each month. Just a fact.

[DaeJi]

Like Hudlin's writing and story telling or not -- a lot of people on this thread are sure buying his book. Just a fact.

I have a friend who buys it.

[bulbasteve]

Great post Loren (now I don't have to ever think about this issue again, right? :))

[Xero]

For me this was an excellent read, I had a great two hour conversation last night about this annual, and I'm glad that Reginald Hudlin setup this timeline.

Also we finally get a well thought out explanation as to why Wakanda developed it's non-interference policy as regards to the rest of Africa.

In my opinion this was an excellent read.

I tend to lump Hudlin haters in with the Winick hating mouth breathers, and after reading some of their trollish posts here, I see no reason to update that policy.

If you don't like Hudlin or Winick then DON'T READ THEIR F#CK!NG BOOKS!

[Deus ex Chris]

I tend to lump Hudlin haters in with the Winick hating mouth breathers, and after reading some of their trollish posts here, I see no reason to update that policy.
Trollish? People like you and statements like this are more trollish than those who've expressed dissatisfaction in this thread. People criticize Hudlin, and they're either being trollish or racist or both. It's absurd. Stop seeing what you want to see, and take a look at what's actually there.
If you don't like Hudlin or Winick then DON'T READ THEIR F#CK!NG BOOKS!
You should probably just worry about what you're reading. It'll work out better for you.

[frog]

He not a great writer but hes not a bad one either i could agree tha hes a mediocre writer and there are TONS of writers in the biz that are mediocre and they dont get have the shiznit that Hudlin gets.



Take a gander at an Exiles thread sometime.



Out of curiosity, can someone list all the characters that attended the wedding?

[bluedmighty]

I didn't care about the history, it's good to finally get that out there, but I bought this book based on the solicit, which I remember correctly was what where Wakanda was 20+ years from now and how it got there. Again, my memory could be wrong but I believe that's what it said. That's why I bought the issue, I was hoping to get a glimpse of some plotlines Hudlin was gonna touch upon in upcoming arcs. Instead it felt like a What If One Shot that does nothing for the main ongoing.

I can feel where you're comming from regarding the solicit.

But taken as a stand alone story, this was pretty a good read, and a great first annual.

My problem with this annual, and Hudlin's run, is very early on it became very clear to me that T'Challa will not lose. He won't be maimed. He won't even get a bloody nose.

And when the lead character is never in jeopardy, the conflict is null. And when the conflict is null, the book is dull. It's getting ridiculously stale, to the point where its Hudlin's fan-fiction.

T'challa's been beaten up, and seen his share of difficulty.

Besides, the problem with the Panther runs before this, didn't have The King behaving in a "Kick ass" manner.

And, while "smart" the Preist's Panther seemed O.K. by comparison (just the way my soul feels).


I've seen cosmically powered characters in jeopardy. But not T'Challa. And it's not like he's picking D-Listers to fight every month. From his fanatical bodyguards, to his endless resources and myriad of tech and magical devices, to his entire nation's political might, to his weather goddess of a wife... he's got every angle covered.

Which is AWESOME!!!!!
On paper he's a beast, and should never lose. But that means that his Bad guys have to be just that good to beat him.


Of course, that makes it incredibly boring. Some would compare him to other icons, like Batman or Stark... but come on, Batman gets the crap kicked out of him sometimes. Stark is getting pulled in a billion directions and can't keep up.

Those uys have had YEARS of ass kicking under their belts.
Which is WHY I think Mr. Hudlin's take on the Black Panther is the best one.
Wakanda has always been billed to be the "Atlantis" of Affrica if you will. But no one has ever really tried to show how that's possible.

To avoid the history lesson, Jack Kirby painted the Wakandans kinda like the Amazons, or some other hidden long lost tribe. Back then T'challa was the only in his community to be educated abroad and this was the reason he was so brilliant.

I feel that Priest tried to establish that Wakanda was a mighty Warrior nation by having Zuri (?) give Ross history lessons.

Mr. Hudlin whent back to the beginning and cleared up some of the WTF's.

1) Are these the magical N!&3r$ over the rainbow? How has Wakanda managed to keep people out of their land, remain undefeated, and keep their culture intact?

2) Seeing the Panther whip ass, unappologetically, is refreshing.


Meanwhile, T'Challa's been warned to get home and run his country without any penalty by the village elders for the past year of comics. And who's going to be a threat? Killmonger? PUH-LEASE.


While Hudlins run is the official continuity of the Black Panther, we see him incorperating elements from the characters past incarnations.

That being said, and while reffering to my statement about bad guys, Killmonger is EXACTLY the man to threaten T'challa.

[The Cool Thatguy]

For me this was an excellent read, I had a great two hour conversation last night about this annual, and I'm glad that Reginald Hudlin setup this timeline.

Also we finally get a well thought out explanation as to why Wakanda developed it's non-interference policy as regards to the rest of Africa.

In my opinion this was an excellent read.

I tend to lump Hudlin haters in with the Winick hating mouth breathers, and after reading some of their trollish posts here, I see no reason to update that policy.

If you don't like Hudlin or Winick then DON'T READ THEIR F#CK!NG BOOKS!

Guess that saves you the trouble of actually thinking about any legitmacy of their points. Truly, the moral high ground is yours :p

[XPac]

He not a great writer but hes not a bad one either i could agree tha hes a mediocre writer and there are TONS of writers in the biz that are mediocre and they dont get have the shiznit that Hudlin gets.

People bitch even when the stories are decent!

People keep saying that his writing is bad but what i really hear is the problems people have with the subject matter. Now i could agree that the subject matter isnt always given the treatment that it really desrves but this is a comic. A comic that geared towards people who want to have that type of thing in their stories.

Hudlin gets heat for a variety of reasons, I think.

I think his continuity right off the bat was really bad, so he turned off a lot of readers to his work early on.

I also think Hudlin had a tendency to make BP look good at the expense of other characters. Similiar to Wolverine in the 90's, that sort of writing tends to get a backlash from the fanbase after a while.

And also, I do think some have issues with the subject matter when the writer doesn't choose to be terribly subtle about it.

It's really a combination of issues that makes Hudlin more disliked by some than other writers who are comparably mediocre. Plus, when you have a lot of people that REALLY like the character but really don't like the writer, you end up with people reading a book they don't like and critiising it a lot. If BP was a less popular character, people would just ignore Hudlin and the book and that would be that. But because a lot of people genuinely love the character, it keeps drawing them back even if they don't like Hudlins' writing.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Hudlin gets heat for a variety of reasons, I think.

I think his continuity right off the bat was really bad, so he turned off a lot of readers to his work early on.

I also think Hudlin had a tendency to make BP look good at the expense of other characters. Similiar to Wolverine in the 90's, that sort of writing tends to get a backlash from the fanbase after a while.

And also, I do think some have issues with the subject matter when the writer doesn't choose to be terribly subtle about it.

It's really a combination of issues that makes Hudlin more disliked by some than other writers who are comparably mediocre. Plus, when you have a lot of people that REALLY like the character but really don't like the writer, you end up with people reading a book they don't like and critiising it a lot. If BP was a less popular character, people would just ignore Hudlin and the book and that would be that. But because a lot of people genuinely love the character, it keeps drawing them back even if they don't like Hudlins' writing.

Couldn't agree more on the last part.

I'd also add that, given how often Hudlin recycles his narrow plots and themes, it's so surprise that the same complaints keep popping up. It's because it's the same story!

[Jackob]

my problem was it is 2057 right, wouldnt baby cage be 50 years old.
and i didnt like how he made all american heroes a bunch of imperialist dickheads that atack other countrys because they can

[RolandJP]

my problem was it is 2057 right, wouldnt baby cage be 50 years old.
and i didnt like how he made all american heroes a bunch of imperialist dickheads that atack other countrys because they can

Doom has attacked America before, Namor too. So whats so imperialistic about Hudlin having them attack Wakanda??

I think Hudlin's main detractors have a beef with him because of how he wrote white people's dialogue in the first 12 or so issues(unlike minorities who have swallowed bad dialogue and characterizations for years, by Marvel's writers, they cannot stomach it.) Panther beating Cap instantly turned some off.

And they havent forgiven him since.


Proverbs 18:19 An offended man is [harder to reach] [f]than a fortified city,
and quarrels are like the bars of a fortress

[XPac]

Whoops... misread what you wrote there. Nevermind.

[Loren]

Doom has attacked America before, Namor too. So whats so imperialistic about Hudlin having them attack Wakanda??

Hudlin didn't have Doom and Namor attack Wakanda. He had Iron Man and American forces attack Wakanda, after he had a whole squadron of American heroes (Iron Man, Mr. Fantastic, Spider-Man, Silver Surfer, etc.) attack Latveria and kill Dr. Doom.

The reason given for the heroes going imperialistic on Latveria is because its leader was a supervillain. The reason given for the heroes going imperialistic on Wakanda is because Wakanda has a lot of nice stuff.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Doom has attacked America before, Namor too. So whats so imperialistic about Hudlin having them attack Wakanda??

I think Hudlin's main detractors have a beef with him because of how he wrote white people's dialogue in the first 12 or so issues(unlike minorities who have swallowed bad dialogue and characterizations for years, by Marvel's writers, they cannot stomach it.) Panther beating Cap instantly turned some off.

And they havent forgiven him since.

Doom and Namor have attacked America. Wakanda has not and largely isn't a threat (in terms of likelyhood to attack the U.S.). Thus, attacking them unprovoked is a clear sign of imperialism.

And while I'm sure his first 12 issues turned alot of readers off to his writing, the reasons run alot deeper than 'beating up Cap' and just remembering the first 12 over and over.

We're over 30 issues in, and there's barely a supporting cast, barely any legitmately threatening rogues, and virtually no subplots. Hudlin's recycled the same plot (morally bankrupt villains who envy Wakanda) four times now.

And that's just the big stuff. There's also the dirty pool he pulled with Black Knight, his out-dated symbolism and just plain bad writing.

[Deus ex Chris]

I think Hudlin's main detractors have a beef with him because of how he wrote white people's dialogue in the first 12 or so issues(unlike minorities who have swallowed bad dialogue and characterizations for years, by Marvel's writers, they cannot stomach it.) Panther beating Cap instantly turned some off.

And they havent forgiven him since.
What is it with you guys? How many different ways do the criticisms of Hudlin's work have to be articulated before you accept that they are in fact legitimate criticisms and not some petty, racist grudge?

[RolandJP]

What is it with you guys? How many different ways do the criticisms of Hudlin's work have to be articulated before you accept that they are in fact legitimate criticisms and not some petty, racist grudge?

I never disagreed with your argument. i was stating what I believe is/was the main reason for the hate. That being said, its only my opinion.

I butressed my statement with the countless hoard of bad minority characters and dialogue that I have read over the years. And None of those writers recieved the ire that Hudlin has.

[drwho]

I never disagreed with your argument. i was stating what I believe is/was the main reason for the hate. That being said, its only my opinion.

I butressed my statement with the countless hoard of bad minority characters and dialogue that I have read over the years. And None of those writers recieved the ire that Hudlin has.

The man, Hudlin, is obsessed with putting race in all his stories and I think he uses poor taste when doing it. Many readers don't want to read about race in every story the man writes. That is why I am no longer a reader though I am a fan of Black Panther and I wouldn't be surprised if that is one of the reason this book sells so badly.

[Loren]

The man, Hudlin, is obsessed with putting race in all his stories and I think he uses poor taste when doing it. Many readers don't want to read about race in every story the man writes.

I don't want this to get into another big discussion on race (you'll notice I didn't address race at all in my long post), but I don't think Hudlin is "obsessed" with putting race in. Personally, I suspect that he's just not good at writing conflict, and racial conflict is easy.

For instance, when there was an issue about T'Challa meeting with Doom, there were many rich possibilities for that encounter. One's a long-time Avenger, one's the MU's premier supervillain. Both rule their own sovereign nations. Both are technological prodigies. The conflict between these two should practically write itself. Imagine that scene in the hands of, say, Ed Brubaker. So what kind of character-based conflict does Hudlin employ to when they meet? Doom randomly getting racist.

[Deus ex Chris]

I never disagreed with your argument. i was stating what I believe is/was the main reason for the hate. That being said, its only my opinion.

It's dismissive and can't be substantiated, so why bother? I haven't even read most of the first 12 issues. In those few issues that I did read, I had no more trouble with the portrayal of the white people than I did with the portrayal of the black people.

I butressed my statement with the countless hoard of bad minority characters and dialogue that I have read over the years. And None of those writers recieved the ire that Hudlin has.Like who? Give me an example. You might find that those writers have indeed received ire or are in fact held in poor esteem by Hudlin's detractors. Minorities have been portrayed rather poorly in comic books over the years. I don't think most people would disagree with that. Start a discussion about the portrayal of minorities in comics over the years, and I bet you'd be surprised at the kind of response you'd get. Most people don't like offensive stereotypes and caricatures.

Anyway, I have no problem with the exploration of past racism or the racism that currently exists. I think that subject is completely valid, relevant and deserving of exploration. Honestly, I think Hudlin has some very interesting--if sometimes limited and repetitive--ideas. It's his execution that bothers me.

[XPac]

I don't want this to get into another big discussion on race (you'll notice I didn't address race at all in my long post), but I don't think Hudlin is "obsessed" with putting race in. Personally, I suspect that he's just not good at writing conflict, and racial conflict is easy.

For instance, when there was an issue about T'Challa meeting with Doom, there were many rich possibilities for that encounter. One's a long-time Avenger, one's the MU's premier supervillain. Both rule their own sovereign nations. Both are technological prodigies. The conflict between these two should practically write itself. Imagine that scene in the hands of, say, Ed Brubaker. So what kind of character-based conflict does Hudlin employ to when they meet? Doom randomly getting racist.

Yeah... the Doom encounter was pretty weak. I won't say it's completely out of bounds for Doom to play the race card, it's really the weakest most superficial low brow way I could ever imagine the characters interating.

The confrontation itself was hardly the worst thing I've ever read... but when you consider how potentially cool it could have and should have been, it really breaks your heart.

[Sanctus]

Hudlin's BP is fine. He tells coherent stories in a timely manner while opening up enough issues that will give writers who follow him the chance to explore some avenues not taken. BP, under his pen, is rarely in mortal danger. To me, that makes sense. He is the leader of the most technological country in the world that has been the envy of others for centuries. It only makes sense that the nation's advisors would raise a leader whose major character attribute is to think of all possible dangers to his person or his nation and to devise ways to neutralize them. In many ways, Stark does the same thing via his Iron Man suits, but where as Stark has the resources of say Exxon, BP has the resources of say Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Pre-1991 Iraq combined.

Also, it makes perfect sense for the US to go after Wakanda. Its leader fought against the government during the CW, it is a resource rich and its population is not necessarily infatuated or willing to be subjected to a US dominated world. Though not exactly, we have seen the US take similar stands/actions against Venezuela, Iraq, Chile, the Congo, Haiti, the Dominican Republic, the Phillipines, Angola and CUBA in the past. I don't fin Hudlin's writing atrocious. I find it adequate and the subject matter timely and laced with nuances that provide an alternative view of the MU and the current global situation as depicted by the US and its dependencies (Western Europe and Canada).

[bluezulu]

I find it most ironic that the more vocal Hudlin critics in a lot of ways work out to be his biggest supporters. There is no way this thread will end up with the 12 or so pages it will with out you. Big thumbs up. We pretty much see this to be the pattern with every issue right?:)

This was a great issue. In the book didn't the frogs mention that this was a possible future out of the many possible futures?

The annual was not what I expected. This was a fun stand alone issue. To the critics of the slave trade story angle answer me this. Take every issue of Hudlin's black panther run out of the equation. Hell for that matter take out Priest's as well. So given Stan Lee's and McGregor's history of Wakanda, how in the hell do you have the most powerful technological advanced nation in the world that happens to sit in Africa yet they allow the slave trade to happen with out so much of a blip of involvment? Oh yea they are xenophobic.:rolleyes: . Xenophobic or not if Nations are being conquered to the left and right of you for no other reason then the labor cost, even if you don't want to get involved wouldn't it be a good idea? Wakanda can provide labor and other resources, that would make them a target to be conqured. I like Hudlin's explanation of the minimal engagement then long term solution.

[XPac]

I find it most ironic that the more vocal Hudlin critics in a lot of ways work out to be his biggest supporters. There is no way this thread will end up with the 12 or so pages it will with out you. Big thumbs up. We pretty much see this to be the pattern with every issue right?:)



Like I said in an earlier post, that's what happens when you like the character even if you dislike the writer.

If many of the Hudlin critics didn't have a genuine appreciation for the character, they could easily ignore both Hudlin and his book. The fact that people will discuss the character for 12+ pages shows that they do care and support the charater, even if they don't like Hudlin.

It's not really THAT ironic... everyone has a character they love being written by someone they don't like sooner or later. It's kinda like when Chuck Austen wrote the Avengers... as much as I loved the Avengers, I just wasn't a happy camper.

[bluezulu]

No, it is ironic that even with the criticism they still manage to read and participate in discussions that keep this book out in the forefront no matter the numbers. With every multiple page thread I read one poster who states they tried the book based off of what they read here or other boards.

The Black Panther
Ms. Marvel
Runaways?
Cable
Deadpool
Cable & Deadpool
New Warriors

All of these book sale at around the same level. None of them generate the amount of passion and discussion. The book will be here for a while. Hopefully when Hudlin's run end, it won't mean that the book will either and Marvel will listen to some of your request for a new writer once Hudlin leaves. However I doubt it unlike insert your favorite writer here:______, Hudlin does not need the check from Marvel so I bet that factors in to one of the reasons this book continues on despite the numbers. I think Hudlin mentioned he looses money writing the book. Say what you want but that is love for the character and the art form.

[Yaw]

meh

not much more I really want to say.

nice art.

[Loren]

In the book didn't the frogs mention that this was a possible future out of the many possible futures?

Yep. That was in the framing sequence for the other framing sequence.

The annual was not what I expected.

I doubt it was what anyone expected, given how little it resembled the story solicited.

To the critics of the slave trade story angle answer me this. Take every issue of Hudlin's black panther run out of the equation. Hell for that matter take out Priest's as well. So given Stan Lee's and McGregor's history of Wakanda, how in the hell do you have the most powerful technological advanced nation in the world that happens to sit in Africa yet they allow the slave trade to happen with out so much of a blip of involvment?

That's easy: because if we're taking Hudlin's issues out of the equation, then Wakanda wasn't the most powerful technological advanced nation in the world. Hudlin was the one who changed it so that Wakanda was always ahead of everyone else; all previous incarnations of Wakanda portrayed it as being historically isolationist and warrior-ish, but not powerful or technologically advanced. The pre-Hudlin Wakanda had no greater reason to interfere in the slave trade than the multitude of real-world African nations that didn't interfere in the slave trade. To the extent that there's a historical hole that needed to be filled, it was Hudlin that dug it in the first place.

Xenophobic or not if Nations are being conquered to the left and right of you for no other reason then the labor cost, even if you don't want to get involved wouldn't it be a good idea?

As I pointed out previously, the European slave trade didn't happen at the same time Europe conquered Africa. The US and England both banned the slave trade by 1808. The *last* country to ban the Atlantic slave trade was Brazil in 1831.

Meanwhile, the European conquest of Africa didn't really begin in earnest until the 1880s. There were a handful of earlier colonization efforts (US in Liberia, France in Algeria), but the serious European rush for Africa (as depicted in the issue) didn't happen until half a century after the slave trade ended.

I like Hudlin's explanation of the minimal engagement then long term solution.

I'll admit I liked that. I wasn't as sold on the notion of 'Wakanda has spies everywhere,' but the low-profile retaliation was a neat idea.

[XPac]

No, it is ironic that even with the criticism they still manage to read and participate in discussions that keep this book out in the forefront no matter the numbers. With every multiple page thread I read one poster who states they tried the book based off of what they read here or other boards.

The Black Panther
Ms. Marvel
Runaways?
Cable
Deadpool
Cable & Deadpool
New Warriors

All of these book sale at around the same level. None of them generate the amount of passion and discussion. The book will be here for a while. Hopefully when Hudlin's run end, it won't mean that the book will either and Marvel will listen to some of your request for a new writer once Hudlin leaves. However I doubt it unlike insert your favorite writer here:______, Hudlin does not need the check from Marvel so I bet that factors in to one of the reasons this book continues on despite the numbers. I think Hudlin mentioned he looses money writing the book. Say what you want but that is love for the character and the art form.

The BP threads do definately generate more passion than most.

And I think there are reasons for that. They do bring in racial and on occasion political issues that most other books do not... that will automatically generate more disussion (and potential heat).

Heat by itself isn't a bad thing of course, as long as it translates into greater interest and sales for the character.

[The Cool Thatguy]

The BP threads do definately generate more passion than most.

And I think there are reasons for that. They do bring in racial and on occasion political issues that most other books do not... that will automatically generate more disussion (and potential heat).

Seriously. You'd think that would be common sense, like yelling 'Fire!' in a movie theater. It takes no effort to do, really.

[bluezulu]

I don't think Hudlin introduced the fact that they were always technologically advanced, it has been that way since Wakanda was first introduced. Wait I think we are saying two different things. Wakanda has always been shown to be advanced to us, however you are saying IN story they were only made advanced after Tchala studied at Oxford AND then made Wakanda in the span of what 10 years top, surpass every nation on earth? I think this is one of the better changes that Hudlin made. It makes more sense for Wakanda to always have been an advanced warrior culture then to have been butt naked and savage until they guess right about the strange mound of Ore. Tchalla's father then on a hunch sends him to EUROPE to get civilized and then...then they can surpass in a decade what some countries have not been able to do in eons. Hey I love StanMcgregorPriest as much as yall but that seems to be far fetch even for a comic book.

[bluezulu]

Seriously. You'd think that would be common sense, like yelling 'Fire!' in a movie theater. It takes no effort to do, really.

------------------
I mean you don't have to like Hudlin or his writing but there is no need to insult fans of the book by saying we only buy it because of the racial/political commentary. Why we can't just be fans of the character and or the writer? I mean however valid your points on the book are how come it just can't be that 25 to 55k people enjoy this book? Those statements just to make them or win an argument turns me off to any type of discussion with you. I mean come on what makes more sense me posting in a forum because I like a character, book and writer or you because you hate the book and writer? Am I or Hudlin yelling fire in a theater or are you? 25k read the book faithfully and enjoy it, far less then that hate it.

[The Cool Thatguy]

------------------
I mean you don't have to like Hudlin or his writing but there is no need to insult fans of the book by saying we only buy it because of the racial/political commentary. Why we can't just be fans of the character and or the writer? I mean however valid your points on the book are how come it just can't be that 25 to 55k people enjoy this book? Those statements just to make them or win an argument turns me off to any type of discussion with you. I mean come on what makes more sense me posting in a forum because I like a character, book and writer or you because you hate the book and writer? Am I or Hudlin yelling fire in a theater or are you? 25k read the book faithfully and enjoy it, far less then that hate it.

I never said you or anyone else liked it because of the racial commentary (though I'm certain it appeals to some. Something appeals to everyone, and I mean that about everything).

Rather, you were extolling the fact that Hudlin seemingly gets rise out of his detractors, (though sometimes this is an example of skill, I wouldn't call it such in this instance) as if it were a virtue.

I was simply pointing out that, using the material in the heavy handed manner that he does, such a reaction should be expected.

[bluedmighty]

That's easy: because if we're taking Hudlin's issues out of the equation, then Wakanda wasn't the most powerful technological advanced nation in the world. Hudlin was the one who changed it so that Wakanda was always ahead of everyone else; all previous incarnations of Wakanda portrayed it as being historically isolationist and warrior-ish, but not powerful or technologically advanced. The pre-Hudlin Wakanda had no greater reason to interfere in the slave trade than the multitude of real-world African nations that didn't interfere in the slave trade. To the extent that there's a historical hole that needed to be filled, it was Hudlin that dug it in the first place.

While we have different points of view, and your entitled to you opinion,
I don't think that's a fair assesment.

Jack Kirby and many after him portreyed Wakanda as a sort of Savage Land meets Atlantis kind of thing. T'challa was the only one who studied abroad, and apparently that's where all the high tech came from. Kirby also made it seem like the Wakandans were backward/premitive people who didn't understand the value of the great mound.

The problem with this is:

In the world that we live in, how is it possible that you still exist?

Once it was descovered that you were sitting on one of the most precious and rare metals on the planet, what would stop other countries from comming and taking it from you?

Where were you during the slave trade? Since you've never been conqured or colonized?

As far as I know, Priest was the first person to try and establish that Wakanda was a mighty nation because of the Panther's that came before T'challa. These were given to us via verbal accounts from Zuri (?)


The problem with this was that it was second hand, and worked in s a gag/complaining poin for Ross. Did Priest ever show what "Old" Wakanda looked like?

Mr. Hudlin from day 1, has shown Wakanda to be a feirce warrior nation.

These guys had a Ghost legend, I.e. "Don't F' with Wakanda".

I loved the "Boule' " scene, where the sellouts and consorters were talking about possible sources of the terrorism.

They didn't even want to say his name. They didn't want to tell their "partners" because then they woul be sent in there and killed.

They were terrified.

As it should be.


As I pointed out previously, the European slave trade didn't happen at the same time Europe conquered Africa. The US and England both banned the slave trade by 1808. The *last* country to ban the Atlantic slave trade was Brazil in 1831.

Meanwhile, the European conquest of Africa didn't really begin in earnest until the 1880s. There were a handful of earlier colonization efforts (US in Liberia, France in Algeria), but the serious European rush for Africa (as depicted in the issue) didn't happen until half a century after the slave trade ended.

You are correct.

I took it as a medly, and I think what we were shown were the handful of earlier efforts.



I'll admit I liked that. I wasn't as sold on the notion of 'Wakanda has spies everywhere,' but the low-profile retaliation was a neat idea.

Agreed.

But I found the use of spies great, and it fit with the instory explination that Wakanda started buying Slaves and sending them to Wakanda. This could be where those spies came from.

[bluedmighty]

Also,

No one has answered my earlier question:

Is this the first time King Solomon has been seen in a Marvel Comic?

[Loren]

I don't think Hudlin introduced the fact that they were always technologically advanced, it has been that way since Wakanda was first introduced.

Nope, it was Hudlin (http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=22839): "The basic tenet of the character is that there is this African nation named Wakanda and they have this amazing super-science. So I said why do they have this amazing super-science? They have it because they were always more advanced then the rest of the world."

Wait I think we are saying two different things. Wakanda has always been shown to be advanced to us, however you are saying IN story they were only made advanced after Tchala studied at Oxford AND then made Wakanda in the span of what 10 years top, surpass every nation on earth?

I'd also point out that "surpassing every nation on earth" is ALSO a change of Hudlin's. Priest and prior, Wakanda's technological advancement was largely limited to its capital city and its military. It was no utopia, and the country on the whole was not some pinnacle of civilization under either MacGregor or Priest (and prior to them, Wakanda itself wasn't fleshed out all that much).

I think this is one of the better changes that Hudlin made.

And I'm on record as saying that utopias are really boring, and poor conduits for good storytelling. And that a fiercely isolationist country is the least likely candidate to vault ahead of the pack technologically and stay there.

It makes more sense for Wakanda to always have been an advanced warrior culture then to have been butt naked and savage until they guess right about the strange mound of Ore.

"Butt naked and savage" is an astonishingly offensive and ignorant description of pre-colonization Africa. If a white guy described Africans that way, I'd peg him as a bigot.

[bluezulu]

Nope, it was Hudlin (http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=22839): "The basic tenet of the character is that there is this African nation named Wakanda and they have this amazing super-science. So I said why do they have this amazing super-science? They have it because they were always more advanced then the rest of the world."



I'd also point out that "surpassing every nation on earth" is ALSO a change of Hudlin's. Priest and prior, Wakanda's technological advancement was largely limited to its capital city and its military. It was no utopia, and the country on the whole was not some pinnacle of civilization under either MacGregor or Priest (and prior to them, Wakanda itself wasn't fleshed out all that much).



And I'm on record as saying that utopias are really boring, and poor conduits for good storytelling. And that a fiercely isolationist country is the least likely candidate to vault ahead of the pack technologically and stay there.



"Butt naked and savage" is an astonishingly offensive and ignorant description of pre-colonization Africa. If a white guy described Africans that way, I'd peg him as a bigot.

-----------------

Butt naked and savage was me being sarcastic. In the series Panther Prey we were given the most insightful look at Wakanda to date. In that series Wakanda's advance nature was highlighted but also the westernization of it as well. There was a scene that showed a pizzeria in Wakanda. Go back in read Panther's Prey, my whole beef with the series was that on one hand you had this perfect black utopia then McGregor chooses to place crack in Wakanda. To me the message wasn't no matter how advanced a society is, it still cant escape the ills of the world. No I just took offense to crack in Wakanda.

[Loren]

-----------------

Butt naked and savage was me being sarcastic. In the series Panther Prey we were given the most insightful look at Wakanda to date. In that series Wakanda's advance nature was highlighted but also the westernization of it as well. There was a scene that showed a pizzeria in Wakanda. Go back in read Panther's Prey, my whole beef with the series was that on one hand you had this perfect black utopia then McGregor chooses to place crack in Wakanda. To me the message wasn't no matter how advanced a society is, it still cant escape the ills of the world. No I just took offense to crack in Wakanda.

Yeah, I'm not even going to attempt to defend the crack thing. I can get behind the general theme (escaping the ills of the world), but making it a drug story drips of '80s after-school-specialism, and making it specifically crack just adds insult to injury.

[DaeJi]

-----------------

Butt naked and savage was me being sarcastic. In the series Panther Prey we were given the most insightful look at Wakanda to date. In that series Wakanda's advance nature was highlighted but also the westernization of it as well. There was a scene that showed a pizzeria in Wakanda. Go back in read Panther's Prey, my whole beef with the series was that on one hand you had this perfect black utopia then McGregor chooses to place crack in Wakanda. To me the message wasn't no matter how advanced a society is, it still cant escape the ills of the world. No I just took offense to crack in Wakanda.

So it's a bad thing that Wakanda isn't a perfect society? I agree with Loren, utopia is boring. Having T'Challa as the perfect king with the perfect land is boring. There's no conflict there. Having a troubled king rule over a country torn apart with conflict is sooooooooo much more interesting.

[Loren]

So it's a bad thing that Wakanda isn't a perfect society? I agree with Loren, utopia is boring. Having T'Challa as the perfect king with the perfect land is boring. There's no conflict there. Having a troubled king rule over a country torn apart with conflict is sooooooooo much more interesting.

This is the same reason why Aquaman stories are so much more interesting when Atlantis/Poseidonis isn't a happy, wonderful place to live. When there's internal conflict, the king can actually do kingly things. A writer can always inject external conflict by having someone attack Atlantis (which writers do, rather frequently), but the 'Atlantis Gets Attacked by Outside Villain/Nation' plot gets really stale when it's done for the umpteenth time.

It's a very simple Silver Agey setup to have Atlantis be a paradise that's constantly under outside attack, but never seems to suffer lasting harm as a result.

[XPac]

This is the same reason why Aquaman stories are so much more interesting when Atlantis/Poseidonis isn't a happy, wonderful place to live. When there's internal conflict, the king can actually do kingly things. A writer can always inject external conflict by having someone attack Atlantis (which writers do, rather frequently), but the 'Atlantis Gets Attacked by Outside Villain/Nation' plot gets really stale when it's done for the umpteenth time.

It's a very simple Silver Agey setup to have Atlantis be a paradise that's constantly under outside attack, but never seems to suffer lasting harm as a result.

That's a good point. Maybe if there was a bit of actual conflict in Wakanda, BP and Storm would actually bother spending 2 seconds there rather than battling skrull zombies in outer space.

[Xero]

I find it most ironic that the more vocal Hudlin critics in a lot of ways work out to be his biggest supporters. There is no way this thread will end up with the 12 or so pages it will with out you. Big thumbs up. We pretty much see this to be the pattern with every issue right?:)....

You are so on the money, I first saw this pattern during Christopher Priest's (Jim Owsley) run when poster's back then were basically saying the same things about him. The detractor's were always the biggest boosters and the threads they created always brought in new readers.

[StoneGold]

You are so on the money, I first saw this pattern during Christopher Priest's (Jim Owsley) run when poster's back then were basically saying the same things about him. The detractor's were always the biggest boosters and the threads they created always brought in new readers.

Priest had detractors?



I thought the only people reading the books were the 50 or so of us in love with it.


And notice I included myself in the mix there.

[Sanctus]

So it's a bad thing that Wakanda isn't a perfect society? I agree with Loren, utopia is boring. Having T'Challa as the perfect king with the perfect land is boring. There's no conflict there. Having a troubled king rule over a country torn apart with conflict is sooooooooo much more interesting.


BP should be the perfect king and Wakanda should be the perfect land. The conflict could come about when other nations try to make Wakanda conform to their ideals when BP already knows that Wakanda is more advance, technologically, economically, socially and spiritually than any other place on Earth. I like the idea of outside forces being the subversive that are trying to break down paradise. It is even somewhat reflective of history since most of Egypt/Kush history shoes that conflict and real periods of suffering in their history came with the invasion of Hyksos, Assyrians, Hittites, etc from Europe and the Middle-East.

[TonyJaymz03]

dumb, dumb, dumb issue

i miss Priest's Black Panther sooooo much

can we get a new writer? Please?

[RolandJP]

Well, the owner of my LCS just told me they have sold out of the annual, and his other locations have as well.

[TonyJaymz03]

BP should be the perfect king and Wakanda should be the perfect land.

why should that be? And if so, that just leads to a boring, unrealistic (yeah, i know comic but still) series. The Wakandans are human, which means there is going to be greed, envy, crime, etc. inside the country...no country is perfect, and every time a literary country is written as such...its boring.

I'm not saying make Wakanda a drug filled, broken country, but to say that it should be perfect....come on

[The Cool Thatguy]

You are so on the money, I first saw this pattern during Christopher Priest's (Jim Owsley) run when poster's back then were basically saying the same things about him. The detractor's were always the biggest boosters and the threads they created always brought in new readers.

...I started reading the series because of the praise it drew on the comicboards Black Panther forum. I fail to see how 'poorly executing storylines with possible racial subtext' is a draw for anyone.

[RolandJP]

...I started reading the series because of the praise it drew on the comicboards Black Panther forum. I fail to see how 'poorly executing storylines with possible racial subtext' is a draw for anyone.

I think for a character like Panther you cannot focus entirely on sales. Preists series was excellent but it was also a low seller. The Jungle action stories written by McGregor same thing. The excellent mini-series written by Peter Gillis and drawn by Denys Cowan, and the McDuffie prestige format Panther stories--all sold under the quality of the work.

I like the fact that the Panther is an Outsider, it reminds me of early Wolverine. But I do not wish to see panther cancelled.

[The Cool Thatguy]

I think for a character liek Panther you cannot focus entirely on sales. Preists series was excellent but it was also a low seller. The Jungle action stories written by McGregor same thing. The excellent mini-series written by Peter Gillis and drawn by Denys Cowan, and the McDuffie prestige format Panther stories--all sold under the quality of the work.

I like the fact that the Panther is an Outsider, it reminds me of early Wolverine.

I agree...but as I've stated elsewhere, Hudlin's writing doesn't impress me.

Sales is not the sole deciding factor in quality, but it can be telling, IMO. Especially in straight forward books, which Hudlin's Panther most certainly is.

[DaeJi]

BP should be the perfect king and Wakanda should be the perfect land.

Why? What is so interesting about a hero with no flaws? The only characters who should be perfect are villains. Wakanda is dull. A story involving an invasion would be dull, since under Hublin's pen the country is so far ahead of anything else that it's unbeatable. It's a crappy story situation, stories are built off conflict. The more things going wrong, the better.

[RolandJP]

The man, Hudlin, is obsessed with putting race in all his stories and I think he uses poor taste when doing it. Many readers don't want to read about race in every story the man writes. That is why I am no longer a reader though I am a fan of Black Panther and I wouldn't be surprised if that is one of the reason this book sells so badly.

Scans from a previous Panther limited series--Race issues and all--so thats nothing new.
Out of curiosity I have to ask, to what extent have all the posters on this thread read Panther adventures?? How far back have you guys been reading panther??

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u102/NoPrize/panther1-1.jpg

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u102/NoPrize/panther2.jpg

[The Cool Thatguy]

IIRC, that mini was released in the 80s, when South American Apartheid was a relevent issue (less so now, but that's the sliding time scale for ya).

Hudlin used Cold War, colonization and crusades symbolism and had it set in the modern day. Hudlin was at least a decade late to actually being relevent with his symbolism.

So yeah, those scans are like comparing apples to other really, really old and moldy apples. One's done with vastly more skill than the other.

[RolandJP]

IIRC, that mini was released in the 80s, when South American Apartheid was a relevent issue (less so now, but that's the sliding time scale for ya).

Hudlin used Cold War, colonization and crusades symbolism and had it set in the modern day. Hudlin was at least a decade late to actually being relevent with his symbolism.

So yeah, those scans are like comparing apples to other really, really old and moldy apples. One's done with vastly more skill than the other.

Well I keep up with politics in south africa and you know what it hasnt changed much. But, I was trying to show the one poster that race has always been an issue in the Panther titles.

Unfortunatly, racism is an old and moldy orange that doesnt seem to want to die or go away.

[bluedmighty]

OK.

I'll take a different approach, and explain why I love his Wakanda and why it's Utopian facade does the opposite of bore me:

'ish is F'd up out here man.

This whole series is a wonderful fairytale based on a group of advanced African People who were left alone to develop untouched by the western world or their european counterparts.

I don't need to see problems in Wakanda. I got problems in VA. :D

Does that mean that Wakanda shouldn't face it's share of hard times?

NO.

But, for all intents and purposes, I need for the default to be "Utopian".

Not to mention the guy is a Genious King. Bred from birth to be a Warrior, and to think like a King. As far as I can tell ALL of the Panthers were great in their own rights.

To be honest why we haven't seen this type of Black Panther BEFORE Hudlin is beyond me.

On paper, T'challa is Cap+Iron Man+Doom+Nick Fury+Dare Devil.

To write him as less than AWESOME is a diservice.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Well I keep up with politics in south africa and you know what it hasnt changed much. But, I was trying to show the one poster that race has always been an issue in the Panther titles.

Unfortunatly, racism is an old and moldy orange that doesnt seem to want to die or go away.

I'm pretty sure they outlawed and dismantled the institutional apartheid system ;)

Racism does die hard. But global politics evolve and change. The Cold War's over and the challenges facing Africa are (largely, but not completely) different from what they faced decades ago.

Honestly, I think Hudlin using a Russian Radioactive Man instead of a Chinese one, given China's spoiler role in Darfur and other places in Africa, hilights his ignorance of international politics beyond his little bubble.

Race has been a constant in Black Panther, I agree. But mixing race with ignirance is always a bad combo and the writer will deserve to catch hell for it.

[XPac]

OK.

I'll take a different approach, and explain why I love his Wakanda and why it's Utopian facade does the opposite of bore me:

'ish is F'd up out here man.

This whole series is a wonderful fairytale based on a group of advanced African People who were left alone to develop untouched by the western world or their european counterparts.

I don't need to see problems in Wakanda. I got problems in VA. :D

Does that mean that Wakanda shouldn't face it's share of hard times?

NO.

But, for all intents and purposes, I need for the default to be "Utopian".

Not to mention the guy is a Genious King. Bred from birth to be a Warrior, and to think like a King. As far as I can tell ALL of the Panthers were great in their own rights.

To be honest why we haven't seen this type of Black Panther BEFORE Hudlin is beyond me.

On paper, T'challa is Cap+Iron Man+Doom+Nick Fury+Dare Devil.

To write him as less than AWESOME is a diservice.

I think you're working on the assumptiong that the Panther is a DC character.

That's the part that Priest got but Hudlin didn't. You can be awesome (Priest BP was that in spades), yet still flawed.

[The Cool Thatguy]

OK.

I'll take a different approach, and explain why I love his Wakanda and why it's Utopian facade does the opposite of bore me:

'ish is F'd up out here man.

This whole series is a wonderful fairytale based on a group of advanced African People who were left alone to develop untouched by the western world or their european counterparts.

I don't need to see problems in Wakanda. I got problems in VA. :D

Does that mean that Wakanda shouldn't face it's share of hard times?

NO.

But, for all intents and purposes, I need for the default to be "Utopian".

Not to mention the guy is a Genious King. Bred from birth to be a Warrior, and to think like a King. As far as I can tell ALL of the Panthers were great in their own rights.

To be honest why we haven't seen this type of Black Panther BEFORE Hudlin is beyond me.

On paper, T'challa is Cap+Iron Man+Doom+Nick Fury+Dare Devil.

To write him as less than AWESOME is a diservice.

As an aside, I honestly fail to see how Hudlin writes Panther as awesome. Panther's bad guys are chumps, he stole the signature weapon of a signature character using dirty pool (in the writing sense) and Hudlin took away Panther's greatest scientific accomplishment, making Wakanda an uber advanced nation by himself.

What exactly is bad ass about Hudlin's Panther?

[Sanctus]

why should that be? And if so, that just leads to a boring, unrealistic (yeah, i know comic but still) series. The Wakandans are human, which means there is going to be greed, envy, crime, etc. inside the country...no country is perfect, and every time a literary country is written as such...its boring.

I'm not saying make Wakanda a drug filled, broken country, but to say that it should be perfect....come on

I explain why it should be in the rest of my earlier post. A society can be perfect and still make for dynamic stories becaue of its interactions with other societies. It does not mean that Wakanda needs to win every battle, but it needs to win the war.

[Sanctus]

IIRC, that mini was released in the 80s, when South American Apartheid was a relevent issue (less so now, but that's the sliding time scale for ya).

Hudlin used Cold War, colonization and crusades symbolism and had it set in the modern day. Hudlin was at least a decade late to actually being relevent with his symbolism.

So yeah, those scans are like comparing apples to other really, really old and moldy apples. One's done with vastly more skill than the other.

Iraq, Corporation in Sierre Leone, Haiti, the Russians in Chechna, China in Tibet, India and Pakistan in Kashmir. Imperialism is still going strong.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Iraq, Corporation in Sierre Leone, Haiti, the Russians in Chechna, China in Tibet, India and Pakistan in Kashmir. Imperialism is still going strong.

I don't recall saying imperialism was over. I said the Cold War is over. Big difference.

[XPac]

I explain why it should be in the rest of my earlier post. A society can be perfect and still make for dynamic stories becaue of its interactions with other societies. It does not mean that Wakanda needs to win every battle, but it needs to win the war.

ANd that's exactly why we get no stories with BP actually in Wakanda. Its perfect... and boring. Hence him largely spending his time in the imperfect where the writer can actually tell a story.

Once the writer decides to create problems in Wakanda is around the time BP will actually bother spending some time there.

[Sanctus]

I don't recall saying imperialism was over. I said the Cold War is over. Big difference.

I mentioned Imperialism because what Hudlin writes is closer to dealing with Imperialism than the cold war. also, can't really say that the Cold War is over when the US still does not have formal relations with Cuba because it is Communist and see China as one of it major, potentially on real state, rivals. And the US has terrible relations with North Korea. The fronts have changed, though tensions with Russia, the successor to the Soviet Union has been rising, but the Cold War is not over. Again, however, Hudlin deals more with imperialism than the Cold War.

[Sanctus]

ANd that's exactly why we get no stories with BP actually in Wakanda. Its perfect... and boring. Hence him largely spending his time in the imperfect where the writer can actually tell a story.

Once the writer decides to create problems in Wakanda is around the time BP will actually bother spending some time there.

The problems can be external threats infiltrating Wakanda (much like the Red Skull and Lukin infiltrating the US in Captain America). The problems do not have to be Wakandan in origin.

[worstblogever]

Agreed with everyone pointing out the lack of a flaw in T'Challa. He's boring, because he's so perfect, there's no way to relate to him. Any other hero has moments of anger, moments of fear, moments of insecurity. T'Challa doesn't have one, save perhaps pride or cockiness, but at the same time, he's often portrayed as a humble king.

Saying that knowing he's gonna win every week because he's a bad*ss on paper is a terrible argument. Because the Silver Surfer wields the power cosmic, and yet he manages to still be imperiled within at least half the stories he's contained. Superman still is put in places where either himself, or someone he dearly cares about has their life on the line. Every issue of Black Panther I pick up, including this one, I doubt he'll end up more than bruised, if that.

I watched the whole of the U.S. show up in Wakanda to beat them down. The whole country. And not for a second, was I worried T'Challa might lose. It was a forgone conclusion. Predictable. And... that's the way it's been. I mean, Storm and T'Challa took on the entire Inhuman nation during their honeymoon, too.

There's no suspense. No passion. It's flat, stale, and dull. If it is exciting, or there is a life and death situation from Hudlin's run I'm not remembering, feel free to cite some examples. Because this issue, along with the past twelve, ain't had it.

[The Cool Thatguy]

I mentioned Imperialism because what Hudlin writes is closer to dealing with Imperialism than the cold war. also, can't really say that the Cold War is over when the US still does not have formal relations with Cuba because it is Communist and see China as one of it major, potentially on real state, rivals. And the US has terrible relations with North Korea. The fronts have changed, though tensions with Russia, the successor to the Soviet Union has been rising, but the Cold War is not over. Again, however, Hudlin deals more with imperialism than the Cold War.

That's another debate. Some of the ramifications of the Cold War still linger (Cuba and Norh Korea, for example), but Russia is nowhere near the creature nor threat it used to be.

Regardless, Hudlin used clear colonization and Cold War symbolism under the cover of modern politics in his first arc. It was an amazing display of ignorance and a major reason why he got off with readers on the wrong foot.

Even conceding that he writes about imperialism, he doesn't do it in any relevent way.

[dagonbeer]

There's no suspense. No passion. It's flat, stale, and dull. If it is exciting, or there is a life and death situation from Hudlin's run I'm not remembering, feel free to cite some examples. Because this issue, along with the past twelve, ain't had it.

Not to mention that Huldin feels the need to put down other characters to make BP look good. Let's see, in 28 issues we have:

Cap (who didn't lose to BP in Priest's original story -- they parted on mutual respect. Nope, Huldin has to have BP win in a fight)
Iron man
Sabertooth
Black Widow
Bunch of Inhumans
Doom
Iron Fist
The most worst X-men outing ever, feat. Wolverine

It might have been fine if they weren't all portrayed as rank amateurs, or if the fights were interesting, but they were all of the "One Punch, haha I'm so much better than you" variety.

And apparently all non-Wakandian earth heroes turn into mass murderers circa 2050.

[Jackob]

It might have been fine if they weren't all portrayed as rank amateurs, or if the fights were interesting, but they were all of the "One Punch, haha I'm so much better than you" variety.

And apparently all non-Wakandian earth heroes turn into mass murderers circa 2050.

i know, it is like no mater how good they are they dont even get a punch in. they never have the panther on the ropes or get the upper hand.

and spiderman invading countrys with a bunch of other heroes. no that is not how it would go down. i could see them all going after doom, but all the heroes going after a country ruled by an avenger? no that would not go down.

it was just an excuse to show that the panther is beter than everyone combinded.

[Dr. Chaos]

Anybody know when Hudlin is going to have The Hulk job to the Black Panther?

Thanks in advance.

[XPac]

Anybody know when Hudlin is going to have The Hulk job to the Black Panther?

Thanks in advance.

Probably around the next time Galactus shows up.

[RolandJP]

Not to mention that Huldin feels the need to put down other characters to make BP look good. Let's see, in 28 issues we have:

Cap (who didn't lose to BP in Priest's original story -- they parted on mutual respect. Nope, Huldin has to have BP win in a fight)
Iron man
Sabertooth
Black Widow
Bunch of Inhumans
Doom
Iron Fist
The most worst X-men outing ever, feat. Wolverine

It might have been fine if they weren't all portrayed as rank amateurs, or if the fights were interesting, but they were all of the "One Punch, haha I'm so much better than you" variety.

And apparently all non-Wakandian earth heroes turn into mass murderers circa 2050.

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u102/NoPrize/Panther3.jpg



http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u102/NoPrize/BlackPantherSmoking440.jpg

[XPac]

Not to mention that Huldin feels the need to put down other characters to make BP look good. Let's see, in 28 issues we have:

Cap (who didn't lose to BP in Priest's original story -- they parted on mutual respect. Nope, Huldin has to have BP win in a fight)
Iron man
Sabertooth
Black Widow
Bunch of Inhumans
Doom
Iron Fist
The most worst X-men outing ever, feat. Wolverine

It might have been fine if they weren't all portrayed as rank amateurs, or if the fights were interesting, but they were all of the "One Punch, haha I'm so much better than you" variety.

And apparently all non-Wakandian earth heroes turn into mass murderers circa 2050.

The thing that a lot of writers don't understand is that when you badly job out a character, you make them look worse than better.

The BP armbar on Surfer (which is all fairness was McDuffie's fault rather than Hudlins) illustrates that pretty clearly. Though I'm sure some fans liked it, I think a good percentage of the readers franky was bothered by it more than anything else. Rather than making BP look cooler, it was frankly something for people to critize the character more.

You can make someone look good without the other person looking bad. A lot of writers failed to do that with Wolverine in the 90's (and Batgod got a bit of that at times too), and it created a preditable backlash against the character. It's a shame a lot of BP writers aren't noticing that it's happening with BP right now... or maybe they don't care. But the difference is that Wolverine and Batman is so ridiculously popular, they can handle a backlash from the readers. BP doesn't have an uber large fan base as it is, so he's less capable of taking it while still thriving as a character.

[SquidSquod]

OK.
I don't need to see problems in Wakanda. I got problems in VA. :D

On paper, T'challa is Cap+Iron Man+Doom+Nick Fury+Dare Devil.

To write him as less than AWESOME is a diservice.

Just tell you need a fantasy reading to make you forget of real life, dreaming of a utopian that will never come. BP is not Lord Savior; he's just a made up character. If you want to create a real utopia then throw your comic books down, do something tangible to your community, and be more inclusive to all sort of human being.

I pray BP someday gets written by another writer (Asian perhaps), and writes how BP grace without being exclusive.

[Kizz]

I completely agree with the posters who are saying that Tchalla should be perfect.

His nation should be perfect. I also believe in the upcoming storylines, that perfection is about to be tested.

And hudlin is going to show even more how perfect Tchalla is by having him overcome all the trials that are going to come with someone trying to overthrow him from wihtin.

I'm in Dallas, and i got it hard here too bruh! *black power fist to ya*

I remember reading this issue today and smiling to myself knowing that the caucasians were gonna be maaaaaaaaaaad about this. I called my best friend in houston.

'did u read BP yet?"

"no. what happened? ha ha"

"The caucasians are gonna be maaaaaaaaad"

I like how the story went and was written today. I like it comeing from Storm. I didnt like how short it was!

I wanted more! Show me more how great Wakanda is! I love how Hudlin has changed Wakanda into something that's kinda giving the flavor that, "this is the way it's always been"

And as a black man i'm GLAD he finally addressed why Wakanda didn't step in and stop the slave trade.

America's imperialistic ways make perfect sense to me in them attacking Wakanda, again and again and again. And always trying to find ways to subvert wakanada.

Destabilize it. Seek to control it and destroy it's native people. As has been westerners ways with every natural peoples on the planet with a valuble resource.

I stand by Hudlin. i don't knock the people who don't like it. One of the key things i BELIEVE in. "EVERYTHING ISN'T FOR EVERYBODY"

This book? I believe is one of those things that isn't for everybody.

Hopefully those who feel me? FEEL ME. With what i'm sayin here.

[worstblogever]

I completely agree with the posters who are saying that Tchalla should be perfect.

His nation should be perfect. I also believe in the upcoming storylines, that perfection is about to be tested.

And hudlin is going to show even more how perfect Tchalla is by having him overcome all the trials that are going to come with someone trying to overthrow him from wihtin.

I'm in Dallas, and i got it hard here too bruh! *black power fist to ya*

I remember reading this issue today and smiling to myself knowing that the caucasians were gonna be maaaaaaaaaaad about this. I called my best friend in houston.

'did u read BP yet?"

"no. what happened? ha ha"

"The caucasians are gonna be maaaaaaaaad"

I like how the story went and was written today. I like it comeing from Storm. I didnt like how short it was!

I wanted more! Show me more how great Wakanda is! I love how Hudlin has changed Wakanda into something that's kinda giving the flavor that, "this is the way it's always been"

And as a black man i'm GLAD he finally addressed why Wakanda didn't step in and stop the slave trade.

America's imperialistic ways make perfect sense to me in them attacking Wakanda, again and again and again. And always trying to find ways to subvert wakanada.

Destabilize it. Seek to control it and destroy it's native people. As has been westerners ways with every natural peoples on the planet with a valuble resource.

I stand by Hudlin. i don't knock the people who don't like it. One of the key things i BELIEVE in. "EVERYTHING ISN'T FOR EVERYBODY"

This book? I believe is one of those things that isn't for everybody.

Hopefully those who feel me? FEEL ME. With what i'm sayin here.

I love the assumption everyone who disagrees that T'Challa is written to be overpowered, and too invincible is caucasian. Because that's the ONLY way someone would disagree with that sentiment.

This isn't about race. It's simply a guy being pushed to the moon by an author with a hard-on for a character, and everyone citing examples.

And we're still waiting for examples of when T'Challa, or any of his supporters have been in dire peril in the past year to prove he's been in some way in jeopardy. Haven't seen a one yet.

[Loren]

I realized I didn't have a lot to say about the substance of the slavery story in the Annual. It has its share of problems, but it was definitely the strongest point of the book. It may be patching a hole that Hudlin himself created, but it patches it pretty well.

However, as I thought more about that story, I realized that everything positive about it (and most everything positive anyone else has had to say about it) stems from its bare plot. Readers liked it because of what it accomplished, not because of the story on its own terms.

That's when I realized that it wasn't really a full story; it was (literally) a history lecture. There's no characterization, and no real characters other than the unnamed 18th/19th century Black Panther. It's all plot. Most of it was simply described by an omniscient narrator.

And so, in this little backstory, there's a microcosm of Hudlin's strengths and weaknesses as a writer that I've talked about before. He's decent at plotting, but poor at characters and characterization. It's also got a wonky timeline, unimpressive dialogue, and unfunny gags (and why is there randomly one attempt at being funny in the middle of a rather serious backstory?).

Finally (and this is an issue with Lashley's art, not the writing), who is the American leader supposed to be at the end? You'd think it should be a President, but the guy shown looks nothing like any of the three Presidents (Washington, Adams, Jefferson) who served while the slave trade still existed. The only President he even vaguely resembles is Abe Lincoln, which is impossible in the context of the story. So who's it supposed to be?

[XPac]

I love the assumption everyone who disagrees that T'Challa is written to be overpowered, and too invincible is caucasian. Because that's the ONLY way someone would disagree with that sentiment.

This isn't about race. It's simply a guy being pushed to the moon by an author with a hard-on for a character, and everyone citing examples.

And we're still waiting for examples of when T'Challa, or any of his supporters have been in dire peril in the past year to prove he's been in some way in jeopardy. Haven't seen a one yet.

Yeah... people playing the race card is never fun. That gets on my nerves.

I'm NOT caucasian... yet it's wrongly implied that I am that by posters at least half a dozen times simply because it's critial of how a black character is written. And that to me shows THEIR racial issues more than mine.

[Omega the Unknown]

the only real issue I have is that on the first page it states "ufettered by the yoke of colonization".

if they stated that "due to the discovery of vibranium and the technology they derived from it" that wakanda became more advanced than practically any other nation on earth I would be fine with it, but it is as if they are saying every country in africa would be that advanced, if not for those darn europeans.

mind you, I am not in any way or form condoning colonization or slavery, but to say that is the main reason why wakanda is the way it is and the rest of africa is the way it is removes responsiblity for the state of the continent from the people who live there. they also must share in the blame for the state of that area in the world.

my only other nitpick is that they are trying too hard to make him batman, I get it, he has a backup plan for his backup plans, okay?

still, I am reading it every month, so it cant be that bad, can it?

[The Cool Thatguy]

Yeah... people playing the race card is never fun. That gets on my nerves.

I'm NOT caucasian... yet it's wrongly implied that I am that by posters at least half a dozen times simply because it's critial of how a black character is written. And that to me shows THEIR racial issues more than mine.

Agreed. Hell, I think the previous writer wrote a much stronger Panther than Hudlin's, using the characters strengths and balancing them out with his flaws.

Priest's Panther used high tech weapons that would be natural for the head of an advanced nation to use. Priest made it a plot point that Panther was so bad ass, he didn't need an armor to put a beat down on someone (and that someone he put a beatdown on? Iron Man. THE armored hero).

Hudlin's Panther rarely uses any weapon that indicates he's from an advanced nation. When he's in a pinch, he pulls out the signature weapon of a B-Lister (grabbed from Black Knight using dirty pool) and lousy armor that from all indications, pales in comparison to every other suit of armor out there.

So yeah, tell me about my issues, Kizz :rolleyes:

[Kizz]

And we're still waiting for examples of when T'Challa, or any of his supporters have been in dire peril in the past year to prove he's been in some way in jeopardy. Haven't seen a one yet.

I don't think we care. Those of us who like it as it is. You're waiting on something that people don't care about apparently my good fellow. It's like saying i'm waiting on an example of Batman being a homosexual. Nobody cares about it man. People who like Batman like Batman. And don't care about the penny anny things that other complain about.

[Jackob]

I don't think we care. Those of us who like it as it is. You're waiting on something that people don't care about apparently my good fellow. It's like saying i'm waiting on an example of Batman being a homosexual. Nobody cares about it man. People who like Batman like Batman. And don't care about the penny anny things that other complain about.

people dont care about characters being totaly unreadabley ubber. just cause some people like it, it doesnt mean that alot of us dont care.

[Kizz]

Yeah... people playing the race card is never fun. That gets on my nerves.

I'm NOT caucasian... yet it's wrongly implied that I am that by posters at least half a dozen times simply because it's critial of how a black character is written. And that to me shows THEIR racial issues more than mine.

I think it is a race issue. And it always has been. We just differ in our opinions. Most of the brothas i know of who read black panther? Like the book. As a matter of fact, i don't know ANY black people who don't like this book. The way i see it? It's the first mainstream character written for us. For what alot of us can identify with.

Or wish to see. Comics have been for years been the power fantasies of white male geeks. lol what's so wrong with us black male geeks having a male power fantasy? I think that's what Hudlin has givin us. For the first time ever.

[Kizz]

So yeah, tell me about my issues, Kizz :rolleyes:

lol You know that right there is a good opening line for a shot at ya but i won't take it. lol

That would have been a nice joke too. But i'm new here sorta. So hi. My names Kizz. I like lots of different comics but BP is one of my faves.

How're you?

[The Cool Thatguy]

I think it is a race issue. And it always has been. We just differ in our opinions. Most of the brothas i know of who read black panther? Like the book. As a matter of fact, i don't know ANY black people who don't like this book. The way i see it? It's the first mainstream character written for us. For what alot of us can identify with.

Or wish to see. Comics have been for years been the power fantasies of white male geeks. lol what's so wrong with us black male geeks having a male power fantasy? I think that's what Hudlin has givin us. For the first time ever.

You think it's a race issue because that makes it easier to dismiss the legitmate complaints about the series. Which is understandable, given that some of those complaints have basis in historical fact .

Nothin' wrong with power fantasy, but they have to be done well. Panther has virtually no supporting cast, no real subplots and no recurring rogues. Even if the series isn't half as bad as it's critics say, it's average at best. Is that what you want for the foremost African (American) hero in the MU?

[RolandJP]

You think it's a race issue because that makes it easier to dismiss the legitmate complaints about the series. Which is understandable, given that some of those complaints have basis in historical fact .

Nothin' wrong with power fantasy, but they have to be done well. Panther has virtually no supporting cast, no real subplots and no recurring rogues. Even if the series isn't half as bad as it's critics say, it's average at best. Is that what you want for the foremost African (American) hero in the MU?

I agree with those points. I would have him , Sheena and Kazar develop a friendship. With Storm having a more prominent role, it could lead to fascinating stories involving the Savage land and the Savage Land mutates.

And you have converted me to your point of view. There are problems in the writing. Altho to me they are negoitable. My most argent reaction was to posters who feel as tho the book is racist. Panther has always been written in opposition to colonialism, especially of africa.

And I have been frustrated with the lack of specifics when it comes to criticisms. Unlike yourself and X-pac, loren,worstblogever, and a few others who have stated a detailed analysis.

[XPac]

You think it's a race issue because that makes it easier to dismiss the legitmate complaints about the series. Which is understandable, given that some of those complaints have basis in historical fact .

Nothin' wrong with power fantasy, but they have to be done well. Panther has virtually no supporting cast, no real subplots and no recurring rogues. Even if the series isn't half as bad as it's critics say, it's average at best. Is that what you want for the foremost African (American) hero in the MU?

I think thats the downside to Hudlins constant use of cross overs. It does help in sales, but it prevents the book from really fleshing out it's own stories.

He really needs to seatle in, build a supporting cast, and fleshing out a lot of things. Ideally the first story arc of the book should have done that... unfortunately it took place in bizarro world which rightfully has been completely ignored.

[The Cool Thatguy]

I think thats the downside to Hudlins constant use of cross overs. It does help in sales, but it prevents the book from really fleshing out it's own stories.

I think, used right, crossovers can be used to compliment a series ongoing plots. Civil War worked well enough with Fabe's Thunderbolts, did okay in Heroes for Hire and a few others. Crossovers aren't always bad, but a writer needs to use them to compliment what he's already doing, instead of dropping everything to get some short term sales.

That's not to say Hudlin's used crossovers right, though ;)

IMO, if Marvel had half a brain, they would have had Black Panther infiltrate the Baxter Building instead of Punisher (because Reed Richards can keep out scientists like the Wizard, but not gun slingers :rolleyes: ) as it would have shown how concerned other nations are about registration, it would have been a betrayal of trust and would have had greater implications than them just showing up outta nowhere for the final fight.

Though that's Millar/Marvel's fault, in fairness.

[DaeJi]

Or wish to see. Comics have been for years been the power fantasies of white male geeks. lol what's so wrong with us black male geeks having a male power fantasy? I think that's what Hudlin has givin us. For the first time ever.

If you really want a power fantasy, then a new character should be created in a new universe designed to just be a black power fantasy. A lot of people like the character of the Black Panther, and a lot of people cannot stomach Hublin's work on the book. Power fantasies make for weak characters and lame stories; no character should be reduced to a such a state. The best heroes are the ones who are not perfect, have huge, gaping flaws, get knocked around a lot, and go up against odds where it's clear that they are the underdogs, and then pull of victory anyway.

[Loren]

I think, used right, crossovers can be used to compliment a series ongoing plots. Civil War worked well enough with Fabe's Thunderbolts, did okay in Heroes for Hire and a few others. Crossovers aren't always bad, but a writer needs to use them to compliment what he's already doing, instead of dropping everything to get some short term sales.

That's not to say Hudlin's used crossovers right, though ;)

IMO, if Marvel had half a brain, they would have had Black Panther infiltrate the Baxter Building instead of Punisher (because Reed Richards can keep out scientists like the Wizard, but not gun slingers :rolleyes: ) as it would have shown how concerned other nations are about registration, it would have been a betrayal of trust and would have had greater implications than them just showing up outta nowhere for the final fight.

Though that's Millar/Marvel's fault, in fairness.

Don't forget that BP was a VERY late addition to the Civil War crossover. #23-25 were only declared crossover issues when the main mini-series started running months behind schedule. Had it run on time, I think #23 would have come out the same month as the final issue of the mini, or maybe even the month after.

Personally, I think the biggest problem with how the crossovers (all of them, actually) have been executed is that Hudlin made them all really self-contained. It was made all too easy for the X-Men fan to drop the title after #9, or the Civil War fan to drop after #25, or the Zombie fan to drop after #30(?), because there was nothing in those issues to pique their curiosity into picking up the next issue. No cliffhangers, no continuing subplots, no intriguing supporting characters. The story they came for ended, and the crossover fans acted like they'd been buying a mini-series, and left.

[bluedmighty]

Don't forget that BP was a VERY late addition to the Civil War crossover. #23-25 were only declared crossover issues when the main mini-series started running months behind schedule. Had it run on time, I think #23 would have come out the same month as the final issue of the mini, or maybe even the month after.

Personally, I think the biggest problem with how the crossovers (all of them, actually) have been executed is that Hudlin made them all really self-contained. It was made all too easy for the X-Men fan to drop the title after #9, or the Civil War fan to drop after #25, or the Zombie fan to drop after #30(?), because there was nothing in those issues to pique their curiosity into picking up the next issue. No cliffhangers, no continuing subplots, no intriguing supporting characters. The story they came for ended, and the crossover fans acted like they'd been buying a mini-series, and left.

I agree.

But that's why I dug this annual. In my mind, I see him setting up a Confrontation with the frogs and King Solomon.

I'm also reminded of that future Black panther that came back in time with cancer or a tumer or something. Anyway, now this series has a future timeline that it can draw characters from.

What if Killmonger comes from that future :eek: ?

[XPac]

Don't forget that BP was a VERY late addition to the Civil War crossover. #23-25 were only declared crossover issues when the main mini-series started running months behind schedule. Had it run on time, I think #23 would have come out the same month as the final issue of the mini, or maybe even the month after.

Personally, I think the biggest problem with how the crossovers (all of them, actually) have been executed is that Hudlin made them all really self-contained. It was made all too easy for the X-Men fan to drop the title after #9, or the Civil War fan to drop after #25, or the Zombie fan to drop after #30(?), because there was nothing in those issues to pique their curiosity into picking up the next issue. No cliffhangers, no continuing subplots, no intriguing supporting characters. The story they came for ended, and the crossover fans acted like they'd been buying a mini-series, and left.

Yeah. I definately think the Civil War aspects SHOULD have continued after CW. They laid the ground work for some pretty interesting things with alliances between various kings in the MU. That was a GREAT story that was completely dropped right off the face of the earth.

BP is a king... he's not just a regular superhero. That's one of the aspects I think Priest took advantage of. Hudlin really should have ran with that more than he did. Namor, BP, Doom, Black Bolt, etc... Hudlin started something REALLY cool there and just kind of let it vanish.

That said, I will say that the CW stuff in my opinion was the best BP material Hudlin put out. So I'll give him credit there, even though I'm critical of him not running with it more.

[Loren]

In the book didn't the frogs mention that this was a possible future out of the many possible futures?

I said "yes" to this earlier, but after looking back at the actual pages, there appears to be a big inconsistency here.

Here's the exchange from the end of the annual:

Frog 1: "Wait, are you telling me that's what is going to happen?"

Frog 2: "No. Yes. It's a possible future. You know how alternate timelines work."

So "yes," that is what the frog said. The problem here is that the issue didn't begin with a conversation between the two frogs; it began with a conversation between one frog and the Watcher. And what do *they* have to say to each other?

Frog: "I just wanted to know how it felt to see your prediction come true."
...
Watcher: "I knew that once Storm and the Black Panther became husband and wife, that union would become the foundation of a dynasty...a dynasty that would rule the world."

Notice that they're not talking possible futures here. In fact, they're both speaking in the past tense, about events that have already happened. And it's the Watcher (not the frog) that kicks off the future part of the story with the above dialogue, RIGHT AFTER he says that he can't see the future. So this has to be the Uatu of the future.

Even the introduction text backs this up:

[quote]"On the day of [T'Challa and Storm's] wedding, Uatu the Watcher appeared to witness the union. Because it is known that he appears only to record moments of great change and enormous upheaval, many thought that T'Challa and Ororo's marriage would change the world. And, as time would tell, it has..."

See? Past tense. Not "As time could tell, it might."

So the opening framing sequence is clearly set in the future, but the closing framing sequence openly claims not to be in the future. And where did the Watcher go? He started the story; why does a frog finish it, and in a totally different location? Is the notion here supposed to be that one frog traveled by himself to the future, chatted up Uatu, was told a story about the future that mostly consists of Storm telling stories about the past, and then traveled back in time to relay that story to his fellow frog? That's the best I can come up with, but even that doesn't quite jive with the frog telling Uatu "I've been watching you as long as you've been watching me."

[Loren]

Yeah. I definately think the Civil War aspects SHOULD have continued after CW. They laid the ground work for some pretty interesting things with alliances between various kings in the MU. That was a GREAT story that was completely dropped right off the face of the earth.

BP is a king... he's not just a regular superhero. That's one of the aspects I think Priest took advantage of. Hudlin really should have ran with that more than he did. Namor, BP, Doom, Black Bolt, etc... Hudlin started something REALLY cool there and just kind of let it vanish.

He even pitched it in interviews. I remember him talking about Panther leading some kind of global resistance to the American policy. It seemed like a natural fit for the character and for Hudlin's preferences for the series: it would be a seriously high-profile role in the MU, and it provided a good and functional reason for BP to remain international and outside Wakanda.

So naturally, he not only didn't go this route, but he went and sent T'Challa off-planet for nine consecutive issues. It's as if he was trying to put as much distance as he possibly could between BP and the MU that he keeps promising to make T'Challa a major player in.

[Kage Kisaragi]

Like the rest of the run, I've enjoyed this issue all to well. I could only hope that the Marvel Universe did follow that potential future. Just knowing that at least in one sane writers mind the world can be good, that a couple can be happy together regardless of fans obvious criticism. Though there were some points that struck me as strange those reflect more on the artist perhapses than the writer.

Of the 5 children Storm and T'challa had, not one of the boys manifested any of Storms physical characteristics. I find that kind of odd considering there hasn't been any written proof that none of Storm's male ancestors couldn't manifest some of her more exotic features, and the idea of all her daughters gaining them is kind of preposterous. Also the flash back with a Ancestor who was doing practically what Storm does is kind of silly.

The giant Avatar fight seemed kind of hokey, but if memory serves me right that is the 2nd time a giant Iron manned by Stark himself was shown/introduced. So seeing it being taken out by a giant B.Panther was kind of funny. Old overweight Wolverine was the best joke ever. We all know it's gonna happen.

[Kage Kisaragi]

He even pitched it in interviews. I remember him talking about Panther leading some kind of global resistance to the American policy. It seemed like a natural fit for the character and for Hudlin's preferences for the series: it would be a seriously high-profile role in the MU, and it provided a good and functional reason for BP to remain international and outside Wakanda.

So naturally, he not only didn't go this route, but he went and sent T'Challa off-planet for nine consecutive issues. It's as if he was trying to put as much distance as he possibly could between BP and the MU that he keeps promising to make T'Challa a major player in.

didn't the end of the issue clearly say that the frogs weren't gonna allow BP to save Marvel Earth?

[DaeJi]

Like the rest of the run, I've enjoyed this issue all to well. I could only hope that the Marvel Universe did follow that potential future.

Interesting. What made that future so great?

[Kage Kisaragi]

I siad I wouldn't get into it.
But it's the worst thing I've read since the Draco.

They destroy Latveria, But can't beat wakanda.
Doom would put up FAR more of a fight than the Panther.


1.) Superheroes invaded Latveria not the Iron Man army. No one likes Doom so obviously those Superheroes wouldn't mind warring with him for some greater good. Wakanda is no Latveria, there are heroes who are actually BP's friend and thus would probably not sign on to invade his land just because they are a nation that is powerful enough to stand on their own and not conform to Tony's ideals.

2.) Tony Stark has done the bonding with Giant mechas before. If the big mecha is more powerful than his normal one then I don't see why he wouldn't do it if faces with potentially other giant robots.. (not that he knew abouit Robo Panther.) Simple answer it was symbolic, it put Tony on equal grounds with T'challa.

[Kage Kisaragi]

Interesting. What made that future so great?

Well let's see, a future where the world isn't enslaving mutants in concentration camps ala X-Men post Messiah Complex. The future isn't ruled totalitarian ruler Tony Stark ala the Exiles. Gee according to Storm the spread of Wakanda's influence and the ideal that love is the weapon people should rule and use to guide their decisions in life seems like a pretty nice future to me, especially since from what was said the marriage of the Cage's daughter and T'challa's son calms and cements a co-existance between the major powers of the world.

[Kage Kisaragi]

i know, it is like no mater how good they are they dont even get a punch in. they never have the panther on the ropes or get the upper hand.

and spiderman invading countrys with a bunch of other heroes. no that is not how it would go down. i could see them all going after doom, but all the heroes going after a country ruled by an avenger? no that would not go down.

it was just an excuse to show that the panther is beter than everyone combinded.

Excuse me, I must have a one of those rare issues where they don't show certain things but I don't remember seeing Spiderman or any Superhero invade Wakanda. Unless Dr Doom is a avenger and I missed something. Sounds like people are just high on themselves as oppose to hudlin being high on Panther. *snicker* Oh also it was a damn flash back, a retelling of a story by Storm to her son, not a 6 part mini series. Get over it.

[DaeJi]

Well let's see, a future where the world isn't enslaving mutants in concentration camps ala X-Men post Messiah Complex. The future isn't ruled totalitarian ruler Tony Stark ala the Exiles. Gee according to Storm the spread of Wakanda's influence and the ideal that love is the weapon people should rule and use to guide their decisions in life seems like a pretty nice future to me, especially since from what was said the marriage of the Cage's daughter and T'challa's son calms and cements a co-existance between the major powers of the world.

This future is lame. Hublin seems incapiable of writing T'Challa as a strong character without putting down every white character at Marvel. MC2 is better.

[XPac]

Well let's see, a future where the world isn't enslaving mutants in concentration camps ala X-Men post Messiah Complex. The future isn't ruled totalitarian ruler Tony Stark ala the Exiles. Gee according to Storm the spread of Wakanda's influence and the ideal that love is the weapon people should rule and use to guide their decisions in life seems like a pretty nice future to me, especially since from what was said the marriage of the Cage's daughter and T'challa's son calms and cements a co-existance between the major powers of the world.

Cage being the president of the US is definately one way to achieve world peace. No one is going to mess with the US after that.

[Kage Kisaragi]

This future is lame. Hublin seems incapiable of writing T'Challa as a strong character without putting down every white character at Marvel. MC2 is better.

Right. Because I guess Tony Stark represents the best aspects of white people :rolleyes: You pretty much just destroyed my faith that you were gonna be serious about this. What white characters be sides Dictator Stark has Black Panther put down in the guise of making all white people out to be war mongers?

Does Silver Surfer or a bunch of Skrulls who chose to be racist white people count as White people? Cause thats pretty much all I've seen him take down as of recently. By the way im sure tired right now im running on fumes, I can't be trusted to sound coherent right now.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Well let's see, a future where the world isn't enslaving mutants in concentration camps ala X-Men post Messiah Complex. The future isn't ruled totalitarian ruler Tony Stark ala the Exiles. Gee according to Storm the spread of Wakanda's influence and the ideal that love is the weapon people should rule and use to guide their decisions in life seems like a pretty nice future to me, especially since from what was said the marriage of the Cage's daughter and T'challa's son calms and cements a co-existance between the major powers of the world.

Ya know, Cage's daughter marrying in a political marriage reminds me of Bush's daughter...no, Clinton's daughter...no, Reagan's son...no...

I'm sorry, in the entire history of the United States, I don't ever remember an arranged marriage between a president's child and the child of a foreign power.

Can someone kindly explain to me what world Hudlin is living in?

[Will.S]

Can someone kindly explain to me what world Hudlin is living in?
In the same way DC usually designates names them, Marvel calls it Earth-Hudlin.

[Jackob]

Ya know, Cage's daughter marrying in a political marriage reminds me of Bush's daughter...no, Clinton's daughter...no, Reagan's son...no...

I'm sorry, in the entire history of the United States, I think ever remember an arranged marriage between a president's child and the child of a foreign power.

Can someone kindly explain to me what world Hudlin is living in?

well he has the president wearing a tiara so who knows what it is like now.

[Yaw]

I said "yes" to this earlier, but after looking back at the actual pages, there appears to be a big inconsistency here.

Here's the exchange from the end of the annual:



So "yes," that is what the frog said. The problem here is that the issue didn't begin with a conversation between the two frogs; it began with a conversation between one frog and the Watcher. And what do *they* have to say to each other?

Frog: "I just wanted to know how it felt to see your prediction come true."
...
Watcher: "I knew that once Storm and the Black Panther became husband and wife, that union would become the foundation of a dynasty...a dynasty that would rule the world."

Notice that they're not talking possible futures here. In fact, they're both speaking in the past tense, about events that have already happened. And it's the Watcher (not the frog) that kicks off the future part of the story with the above dialogue, RIGHT AFTER he says that he can't see the future. So this has to be the Uatu of the future.

Even the introduction text backs this up:



See? Past tense. Not "As time could tell, it might."

So the opening framing sequence is clearly set in the future, but the closing framing sequence openly claims not to be in the future. And where did the Watcher go? He started the story; why does a frog finish it, and in a totally different location? Is the notion here supposed to be that one frog traveled by himself to the future, chatted up Uatu, was told a story about the future that mostly consists of Storm telling stories about the past, and then traveled back in time to relay that story to his fellow frog? That's the best I can come up with, but even that doesn't quite jive with the frog telling Uatu "I've been watching you as long as you've been watching me."


Took it as the annual ending during the times of King Solomon so it started in the future then ended in the past. Therefore the frogs traveled to the future and then back to the past.

[Loren]

Took it as the annual ending during the times of King Solomon so it started in the future then ended in the past. Therefore the frogs traveled to the future and then back to the past.

I suppose, but that means the frog was simply lying when he told the Watcher "I've been watching you." Because if the frog just jumped several decades into the future, he definitely *hadn't* been watching the Watcher during the interim.

I mean, it really doesn't affect whether or not what's depicted is a "possible" future, because all Marvel futures are just "possible" futures. They just made that point rather explicitly over in "Messiah Complex," and that even involved sending Jamie Madrox into two different futures (and the one we saw was most definitely not the one seen here). Rather, it's the simple matter of why the bookends of the book don't match up, and even given the half-explanation we have so far, why there's virtually nothing on the page to make that clear. It's almost like the reader was simply expected to forget how the book began by the time the final pages were reached. Heck, I certainly didn't recognize the inconsistency at first.

[Loren]

didn't the end of the issue clearly say that the frogs weren't gonna allow BP to save Marvel Earth?

Not in the Annual. I'm not sure how #34 ended.

Either way, that's just the in-story excuse for why BP hasn't been involved in the MU's happenings. If that was said, it's only because the writer put those words in somebody's mouth. If Hudlin had so chosen, he could've never brought the frogs back, kept BP on Earth for the last nine months, and told post-CW stories that took advantage of T'Challa's position of power in the MU. But he didn't. Hudlin made the decision to send T'Challa into outer space for the better part of a year, not the frogs.

[Kage Kisaragi]

Ya know, Cage's daughter marrying in a political marriage reminds me of Bush's daughter...no, Clinton's daughter...no, Reagan's son...no...

I'm sorry, in the entire history of the United States, I don't ever remember an arranged marriage between a president's child and the child of a foreign power.

Can someone kindly explain to me what world Hudlin is living in?

Oh christ, simply put if two families of political power marry (by the way please tell me you actual read the issue unlike some people here, and noticed the lines were they actually mention that the kids practically grew up together!) its generally publicizes that two powers are now in good relations, friendly even if it makes it more clearer and with the United States being beaten by Wakanda which would mean the World Police (as it was mentioned in the story.) has succumb to a greater power. What would the rest of the world think? Yeah if you're conclusion is that it would become rather panicky that the once great US of A could be toppled by a greater power, what is keeping that greater power from conquering the rest of the world? Yes this is the very same thing Storm was talking to T'wari? about. Why doesn't Wakanda take over the rest of the world in order to make it truly better or safe?

I think you guys are just to blinded by whatever Hudlins ideas are to see the over all goodness of the stories he's telling. Stories that aren't that much different than ones that have already been told. Yet the only true underlining that I see for you're hatred is some sort of bitter twisted form of racism. "Hudlin, makes Black Panther unstoppable! Hudlin keeps pushing his black agenda on us. Hudlin ruined Storm." When in fact the majority of comic readers aren't black so why would Hudlin try to send messages to them through comics they aren't reading? :rolleyes: Black Panther even before Hudlin came along (that is under the few people who actual wrote him as being a part of the marvel universe.) actually did far more amazing things like take on the entirety of the Fantastic Four (You know that team of heroes who fought Silver Surfer and won, and held off Galactus), and Captain America. When Storm has done nothing but shine since he started writing her. Shes done nothing but win, nothing but show her love for her husband and be every bit as commanding and intelligent as shes ever been in any X-book. I can't even begin to comprehend what real grounds other than "I want Storm back to being the X-Mansion Exotic Tail number 1."

Don't get me wrong I'm sure thats what made her popular in the first place with males and bi sexuals and lesbians ranging from ages 18 and up. Yet like the times, things change. Find a new clutch, there are plenty to choose from.

[Kage Kisaragi]

Not in the Annual. I'm not sure how #34 ended.

Either way, that's just the in-story excuse for why BP hasn't been involved in the MU's happenings. If that was said, it's only because the writer put those words in somebody's mouth. If Hudlin had so chosen, he could've never brought the frogs back, kept BP on Earth for the last nine months, and told post-CW stories that took advantage of T'Challa's position of power in the MU. But he didn't. Hudlin made the decision to send T'Challa into outer space for the better part of a year, not the frogs.

Last I checked, editors make or break any story ideas that are passed there way. It would more than likely seem to me that any story that doesn't have anything to do with the Wakanda (hence everything involving the Civil War) does not need to be mentioned or dealt with when it comes to the happenings there in. There was no World War Hulk in Africa let alone Wakanda, or any other nation so why isn't anyone complaining about Big Hero 6 not stopping Hulk? It's because its a foreign land. Why didn't the Red Guard stop the Civil War or Big Hero 6? It's because its foreign affairs. T'challa would have been the aggressor if he even remotely tried to do anything to prevent the Civil War (such as coming in and trying to stop Tony or Captain America). Yet he did try and help Reed during World War Hulk but a of course let's ignore that. :(

[Jackob]

Last I checked, editors make or break any story ideas that are passed there way. It would more than likely seem to me that any story that doesn't have anything to do with the Wakanda (hence everything involving the Civil War) does not need to be mentioned or dealt with when it comes to the happenings there in. There was no World War Hulk in Africa let alone Wakanda, or any other nation so why isn't anyone complaining about Big Hero 6 not stopping Hulk? It's because its a foreign land. Why didn't the Red Guard stop the Civil War or Big Hero 6? It's because its foreign affairs. T'challa would have been the aggressor if he even remotely tried to do anything to prevent the Civil War (such as coming in and trying to stop Tony or Captain America). Yet he did try and help Reed during World War Hulk but a of course let's ignore that. :(

but he still has them in space fighting zombies insted of dealing with the political fallout of the civil war/iniative. and he helped in wwh because he was in the ff at the time, and it looked like he was acting like a superhero.
but huldin has them in space not the editors.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Oh christ, simply put if two families of political power marry (by the way please tell me you actual read the issue unlike some people here, and noticed the lines were they actually mention that the kids practically grew up together!) its generally publicizes that two powers are now in good relations, friendly even if it makes it more clearer and with the United States being beaten by Wakanda which would mean the World Police (as it was mentioned in the story.) has succumb to a greater power. What would the rest of the world think? Yeah if you're conclusion is that it would become rather panicky that the once great US of A could be toppled by a greater power, what is keeping that greater power from conquering the rest of the world? Yes this is the very same thing Storm was talking to T'wari? about. Why doesn't Wakanda take over the rest of the world in order to make it truly better or safe? .

Good relations are symbolized by treaties, not political marriages. And ut's been that way for decades (understatement that).

I think you guys are just to blinded by whatever Hudlins ideas are to see the over all goodness of the stories he's telling. Stories that aren't that much different than ones that have already been told. Yet the only true underlining that I see for you're hatred is some sort of bitter twisted form of racism. "Hudlin, makes Black Panther unstoppable! Hudlin keeps pushing his black agenda on us. Hudlin ruined Storm." When in fact the majority of comic readers aren't black so why would Hudlin try to send messages to them through comics they aren't reading? :rolleyes:

Ah yes. The ol' racism card. Guess it doesn't matter a lick if I've not brought up race, huh?

Black Panther even before Hudlin came along (that is under the few people who actual wrote him as being a part of the marvel universe.) actually did far more amazing things like take on the entirety of the Fantastic Four (You know that team of heroes who fought Silver Surfer and won, and held off Galactus), and Captain America. When Storm has done nothing but shine since he started writing her. Shes done nothing but win, nothing but show her love for her husband and be every bit as commanding and intelligent as shes ever been in any X-book. I can't even begin to comprehend what real grounds other than "I want Storm back to being the X-Mansion Exotic Tail number 1."

What exactly is so impressive about Hudlin's Panther, might I ask? His foes are chumps and he relies on the signature weapon of a B-lister and pulling out a bigger gun (which isn't too hard, given that he runs a country). Hudlin's Panther is about as almighty as a forty year old fighting a kindergarden class.

[Loren]

What exactly is so impressive about Hudlin's Panther, might I ask? His foes are chumps and he relies on the signature weapon of a B-lister and pulling out a bigger gun (which isn't too hard, given that he runs a country).

Hey, be fair. In addition to the borrowed magic sword, Hudlin's Panther also has a set of magic frogs, and a magically-imbued suit of armor that he built. Granted, his arsenal may be a little magic-heavy for a historically high-tech hero, but then he also has the mysterious Skrull-gun-incapacitator that he apparently hides in the fingertips of his glove in case of emergencies.

[Kage Kisaragi]

but he still has them in space fighting zombies insted of dealing with the political fallout of the civil war/iniative. and he helped in wwh because he was in the ff at the time, and it looked like he was acting like a superhero.
but huldin has them in space not the editors.

What does Civil War have to do with Wakanda? BP made the offer for asylum to for any of the people involved with the work being done down in New Orleans. What else could he have done? It's not his countries policy to dictate other countries methods of well Civil Unrest I guess it what you could call it. If BP did help during CW war what said would he have been on? Likely Cap's side but that would have just made things more difficult for Wakanda because now they are alienating the US by getting involved and siding against the governments sponsored superhero/leader Iron Man.. Even more so since he was Director of Shield.

It's not really Hudlin's fault that the marvel universe is revolved around America and America only. (In most cases.) The only other stories he hear about in Marvel are outer space ones, so what else is he suppose do to? That's like saying why did China get involved in the American Civil War? As far as handling the fall out of CW. What else can a ruler of a foreign nation do? He doesn't export anything into the US anyway so its not like he's cutting the fuel shipments. The US is still the world leader in terms of security so I doubt he could have argued against them in the United Nations and gotten other countries to Black Ball the US until they undid the SHRA. If anything is gonna happen because of the the Superhuman CW then it has to be because someone in America wanted to change it, ala New Warriors or something.

I'm sure not everyone likes the stories Hudlin writes for whatever reason, but I'm liking them just fine. So long as he puts out stories that are comprehensive enough that I can follow them then I don't have anything to complain about.

[Jackob]

What does Civil War have to do with Wakanda? BP made the offer for asylum to for any of the people involved with the work being done down in New Orleans. What else could he have done? It's not his countries policy to dictate other countries methods of well Civil Unrest I guess it what you could call it. If BP did help during CW war what said would he have been on? Likely Cap's side but that would have just made things more difficult for Wakanda because now they are alienating the US by getting involved and siding against the governments sponsored superhero/leader Iron Man.. Even more so since he was Director of Shield.

It's not really Hudlin's fault that the marvel universe is revolved around America and America only. (In most cases.) The only other stories he hear about in Marvel are outer space ones, so what else is he suppose do to? That's like saying why did China get involved in the American Civil War? As far as handling the fall out of CW. What else can a ruler of a foreign nation do? He doesn't export anything into the US anyway so its not like he's cutting the fuel shipments. The US is still the world leader in terms of security so I doubt he could have argued against them in the United Nations and gotten other countries to Black Ball the US until they undid the SHRA. If anything is gonna happen because of the the Superhuman CW then it has to be because someone in America wanted to change it, ala New Warriors or something.

I'm sure not everyone likes the stories Hudlin writes for whatever reason, but I'm liking them just fine. So long as he puts out stories that are comprehensive enough that I can follow them then I don't have anything to complain about.

but bp was involved in the civil war, and the wolrd tour was about other countrys puting up a resistance to the iniative.
so it was there, but insted it is zombie time

[The Cool Thatguy]

Hudlin's the one boasting that he's going to/already has made Black Panther a major player in the MU. It's up to him to work around that whole America thing. Until he does that or quits the major player claims, people (like myself) will continue to call him out on being full of hot air ;)

[Kage Kisaragi]

Good relations are symbolized by treaties, not political marriages. And ut's been that way for decades (understatement that).
Yes but we aren't talking about people who hide behind papers, we know all to well from reading the annual that the cages and BP's go back some ways and to be honest a paper of paper means crap in comparison to someone who is willingly allowing his son or daughter to marry in the public eye despite past relations. A treaty will only keep a man back until he finds a loop hole, but a marriage.. that says a lot more. Now obviously Luke Cage wasn't the president since his daughter was born nor will he be president for the rest of his days, but I'd have to assume that this marriage was gonna take place whether he was or wasn't. It just so happens it came about at a time where it would quiet the people of the world (especially America) to know that Wakanda isn't out to take over.


Ah yes. The ol' racism card. Guess it doesn't matter a lick if I've not brought up race, huh? Ah, you gotta call it something if perfectly rational people can't see rationality when it's staring them in the face. I mean, the term blind rage quickly comes to mind, but then you'd have to explain what fueling the rage, and really... it only looks like it could be one thing.



What exactly is so impressive about Hudlin's Panther, might I ask? His foes are chumps and he relies on the signature weapon of a B-lister and pulling out a bigger gun (which isn't too hard, given that he runs a country). Hudlin's Panther is about as almighty as a forty year old fighting a kindergarden class.

Ahh yes, the whats so good about Hudlin's panther question. Answering answers with questions.. ahh how I love you people sometimes. So I'll through it back at you and let you ponder/play with this device.

What is so great about Hudlin's panther that it got 10+ pages on a thread about his annual? What's so great about Captain America that we he goes around beating the crap out of Nazi's and preaching America that it's fine and acceptable, but bad when Black Panther goes around beating of slavers, supremacist, dictators, aliens and the occasional robot that the current writer is asked to explain himself? LOL See how that works? :rolleyes:

Again no one has EVER to this DATE answered how Hudlin is writting BP any different from past writers.

1.) Does BP fight people who are socially bad? Yes.
2.) Does BP fight people who are threatening his way of life or his home/home world? Yes.
3.) Does BP have love in it? Yes.
4.) Does BP teach any moral lessons like comics used to in the past? Yes, is there a clearly presented contrast in these rights and wrongs? Yes.

Then pray tell what is BAD about Hudlin's BP run?

[Jackob]

Then pray tell what is BAD about Hudlin's BP run?

well for one the storys are mostly just add ons to crossovers.
and he has the panter make everyone look like rookies, and bp just totaly kicks the crap out of anyone in a onesided fight.
he is never in danger of losing

and he has the ebony blade-weak dude, weak

[The Cool Thatguy]

Yes but we aren't talking about people who hide behind papers, we know all to well from reading the annual that the cages and BP's go back some ways and to be honest a paper of paper means crap in comparison to someone who is willingly allowing his son or daughter to marry in the public eye despite past relations. A treaty will only keep a man back until he finds a loop hole, but a marriage.. that says a lot more. Now obviously Luke Cage wasn't the president since his daughter was born nor will he be president for the rest of his days, but I'd have to assume that this marriage was gonna take place whether he was or wasn't. It just so happens it came about at a time where it would quiet the people of the world (especially America) to know that Wakanda isn't out to take over.

Treaties meaning everything, political marriages virtually nothing, especially when you consider the fact that presidents only last 8 years at the longest.

Unless you can cite some American precedent?

Ah, you gotta call it something if perfectly rational people can't see rationality when it's staring them in the face. I mean, the term blind rage quickly comes to mind, but then you'd have to explain what fueling the rage, and really... it only looks like it could be one thing.

You mean how I and others raised point after point (no subplots, supporting cast, out-dated symbolism, etc), only to have you and others ignore them?

I can't imagine why anyone would get annoyed by being called racist everytime they bring up a subject matter that doesn't deal with race. Can you?

What is so great about Hudlin's panther that it got 10+ pages on a thread about his annual? What's so great about Captain America that we he goes around beating the crap out of Nazi's and preaching America that it's fine and acceptable, but bad when Black Panther goes around beating of slavers, supremacist, dictators, aliens and the occasional robot that the current writer is asked to explain himself? LOL See how that works? :rolleyes:

Again no one has EVER to this DATE answered how Hudlin is writting BP any different from past writers.

...Loren, Xpac and myself have explained, at length and in detail, in this thread and others, what makes Hudlin's Panther so much different, and worse, than those that have come before. Go to page 8 for my explanation, eh?

Like so many others before you, you've simply chosen only what you want to see. Maybe that's why Hudlin's writing appeals to you, I dunno.

1.) Does BP fight people who are socially bad? Yes.
2.) Does BP fight people who are threatening his way of life or his home/home world? Yes.
3.) Does BP have love in it? Yes.
4.) Does BP teach any moral lessons like comics used to in the past? Yes, is there a clearly presented contrast in these rights and wrongs? Yes.

Then pray tell what is BAD about Hudlin's BP run?

We've been stating what the problems are since page 1. But, if history is teacher, you'll just ignore that.

[RolandJP]

I love the character. And if Hudlin does as well..if fan dissapointment continues to drop readers I hope he passes the reigns to Greg Rucka and not let the book get cancelled. That being said, What would it take for him to turn the title around--??

[XPac]

I love the character. And if Hudlin does as well..if fan dissapointment continues to drop readers I hope he passes the reigns to Greg Rucka and not let the book get cancelled. That being said, What would it take for him to turn the title around--??

It would really only take a few basic things that others have already mentioned. Like any good story, develop the setting. Develop the characters. Specifically, give us a few supporting characters, and maybe a re-occuring villain or two.

And I honestly believe they should change the book from Black Panther to Black Panther and Storm. Give them equal billing, and give her just as much emphasis as hes getting (as Storm is both marvels top female character, and arguably the most high profile african american character in all of comics).

[Loren]

Treaties meaning everything, political marriages virtually nothing, especially when you consider the fact that presidents only last 8 years at the longest.

Unless you can cite some American precedent?

Heck, why be picky? I'd almost settle for a precedent from any modern democratic nation that doesn't have royalty.

Or maybe Hudlin's onto something here. Maybe international tensions between the US and Iran would be soothed if Jenna Bush married Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's son. Maybe that would be the lynchpin to making Americans and Iranians like each other.

Or maybe not.

[Yaw]

Treaties meaning everything


Tell that to Native Americans;)
And if you try to say that was in the past then some Native Americans would beg to differ. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Lakotah)

[The Cool Thatguy]

Tell that to Native Americans;)
And if you try to say that was in the past then some Native Americans would beg to differ. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Lakotah)

Heh, good point.

Lemme rephrase: In terms of international treaties compared to political marriages, treaties mean everything.

[Yaw]

Heh, good point.

Lemme rephrase: In terms of international treaties compared to political marriages, treaties mean everything.


Much better.;)

[bluedmighty]

I've seen the Ebony blade and his Armor mentioned a few times here.

Why don't you all like those devlopments of the character?

Also, Hudlin's BP and Wakanda have demonstratd that they have technology that makes guns more dangerous to the users than to their targets.

[XPac]

I've seen the Ebony blade and his Armor mentioned a few times here.

Why don't you all like those devlopments of the character?

Also, Hudlin's BP and Wakanda have demonstratd that they have technology that makes guns more dangerous to the users than to their targets.

The Ebony Blade thing in my opinion was really handled badly.

For one thing, the continuity of it's introduction was a mess (as was many many things at the start of his run).

The Black Knight and Black Panther both ended up having it at one point... but for Black Knight it was an important part of his character and history. For Panther, it's just a trinket he used maybe one time. Yet BP keeps it and BK story is rewritten to fit about BP book.

To me that's the equivalent of BP taking Caps SHIELD or Thors hammer just so he can keep it in the closet and forget about it. That made no sense to me.

[The Cool Thatguy]

I've seen the Ebony blade and his Armor mentioned a few times here.

Why don't you all like those devlopments of the character?

Also, Hudlin's BP and Wakanda have demonstratd that they have technology that makes guns more dangerous to the users than to their targets.

Personally, I dislike Panther using the Ebony Blade for a host of reasons.

1) A hero of Panther's statue shouldn't rely on the signature weapon of someone else. He's not Manhunter, who has to beg and scrap for supplies, he's the king of his own nation. You won't find another A-lister who uses someone else's weapons.

2) It's amazingly useless to anyone but Black Knight. A sword that can cut through anything isn't that hard to make in the MU, but the sword's history rests entirely with Dane Whitman. I'd rather see Panther create his own sword that can cut through anything than steal someone else's.

3) It makes no comic book sense for him to use it, given that the sword's connection is to Dane Whitman. Panther uses the sword to kill someone and it activates the blood curse, and Dane's screwed. Logically, Panther should have given the sword back to Dane by now.

Lastly, and most importantly reason which, IMO is reason enough to dislike the use...

4) The ebony sword was yanked via dirty pool. Hudlin created his own Black Knight with weak justification (there was/is no line of Black Knights, just 3), gave him the ebony blade and then swiped the blade for his title character. Then he has Black Panther keep the sword, claiming that it was abused/used irresponsibly citing the Black Knight he just created out of nowhere as proof.

Hudlin used underhanded tactics to steal the weapon of a B-lister for himself, just because the sword was called 'The Ebony Blade'. What on earth is there to like about that?

[bluezulu]

Personally, I dislike Panther using the Ebony Blade for a host of reasons.

1) A hero of Panther's statue shouldn't rely on the signature weapon of someone else. He's not Manhunter, who has to beg and scrap for supplies, he's the king of his own nation. You won't find another A-lister who uses someone else's weapons.

2) It's amazingly useless to anyone but Black Knight. A sword that can cut through anything isn't that hard to make in the MU, but the sword's history rests entirely with Dane Whitman. I'd rather see Panther create his own sword that can cut through anything than steal someone else's.

3) It makes no comic book sense for him to use it, given that the sword's connection is to Dane Whitman. Panther uses the sword to kill someone and it activates the blood curse, and Dane's screwed. Logically, Panther should have given the sword back to Dane by now.

Lastly, and most importantly reason which, IMO is reason enough to dislike the use...

4) The ebony sword was yanked via dirty pool. Hudlin created his own Black Knight with weak justification (there was/is no line of Black Knights, just 3), gave him the ebony blade and then swiped the blade for his title character. Then he has Black Panther keep the sword, claiming that it was abused/used irresponsibly citing the Black Knight he just created out of nowhere as proof.

Hudlin used underhanded tactics to steal the weapon of a B-lister for himself, just because the sword was called 'The Ebony Blade'. What on earth is there to like about that?

------------------

Dude maybe it is really time you pull out if you really start to believe that Reggie Hudlin sits somewhere like an evil dictator thinking how he can "underhandedly" "steal" and "yank" using "dirty pool tactics" to Marvel Characters. Does he promotes a social and political agenda in his books that you don't agree with in his books? Yes. But why make it overt evil, because you don't agree? I like the book so I support it. You don't sooooo? But dude the writer of the Barracuda limited series get criticised from me all the time, however I doubt seriously that he thinks all day on ways to portray black people poorly. Hell I don't care enough about him to remember his name right now.

[The Cool Thatguy]

------------------

Dude maybe it is really time you pull out if you really start to believe that Reggie Hudlin sits somewhere like an evil dictator thinking how he can "underhandedly" "steal" and "yank" using "dirty pool tactics" to Marvel Characters. Does he promotes a social and political agenda in his books that you don't agree with in his books? Yes. But why make it overt evil, because you don't agree? I like the book so I support it. You don't sooooo? But dude the writer of the Barracuda limited series get criticised from me all the time, however I doubt seriously that he thinks all day on ways to portray black people poorly. Hell I don't care enough about him to remember his name right now.

...evil dictator? I don't recall ever going so far as to calling Hudlin evil. Dirty pool tactics are underhanded, but hardly evil.

But I guess since you don't wanna address my points, you have to change the subject completely and start putting words in my mouth. Otherwise, you might be forced into a legitmate debate. What a horror, that ;)

[Jackob]

------------------

Dude maybe it is really time you pull out if you really start to believe that Reggie Hudlin sits somewhere like an evil dictator thinking how he can "underhandedly" "steal" and "yank" using "dirty pool tactics" to Marvel Characters. Does he promotes a social and political agenda in his books that you don't agree with in his books? Yes. But why make it overt evil, because you don't agree? I like the book so I support it. You don't sooooo? But dude the writer of the Barracuda limited series get criticised from me all the time, however I doubt seriously that he thinks all day on ways to portray black people poorly. Hell I don't care enough about him to remember his name right now.

its not about him cheating marvel characters, its about cheating the the readers with storys where they take what makes a character unique and give it to someone else that then just uses it a little.
and the way he got it, he took it from a difernt black knight.
why not give it back to the fellow avenger the black knight.

[XPac]

In regards to butchering characters and continuity, Hudlin legitmately deserves any criticism he gets for those first for story arcs.

He couldn't even get BP characters right, let alone bother accurately or respectuflly potraying other characters. How a person can write a BP book without taking 2 seconds to read up on Klaw of all people is beyond me.

He's gotten better, at least. But there's still no reason he shouldn't have BP give Black Knight HIS sword back. It's not like Black Panther is using it, and certainly there's no legitimacy to claiming Dane Whiteman not being responsible enough to wield it.

[bluezulu]

In regards to butchering characters and continuity, Hudlin legitmately deserves any criticism he gets for those first for story arcs.

He couldn't even get BP characters right, let alone bother accurately or respectuflly potraying other characters. How a person can write a BP book without taking 2 seconds to read up on Klaw of all people is beyond me.

He's gotten better, at least. But there's still no reason he shouldn't have BP give Black Knight HIS sword back. It's not like Black Panther is using it, and certainly there's no legitimacy to claiming Dane Whiteman not being responsible enough to wield it.

----------------
As far as the first six issues and the whole ebony blade thing we have debated that to death through the YEARS. I cap YEARS for emphasis to show we have argued a lot of the same points going on three years now, that is why I posted to the adjectives used to describe a possible motivation behind Hudlin's character choices to be about any thing other then his preferences as an artist and his goal in promoting his social/political commentary. See this is a discussion board so I guess that is what we are here to do is discuss comics but when things start to get "over thunked" I think that voice is needed to make sure we don't over think it you know. We all have discussed what those first 6 issues were about. Do we really need to get back into that again. Well I'm not. Let's talk about the annual.:)

[DaeJi]

In regards to butchering characters and continuity, Hudlin legitmately deserves any criticism he gets for those first for story arcs.

He couldn't even get BP characters right, let alone bother accurately or respectuflly potraying other characters. How a person can write a BP book without taking 2 seconds to read up on Klaw of all people is beyond me.

He's gotten better, at least. But there's still no reason he shouldn't have BP give Black Knight HIS sword back. It's not like Black Panther is using it, and certainly there's no legitimacy to claiming Dane Whiteman not being responsible enough to wield it.

I think his recent use of crossovers and events has helped with his horrid character assassinations and horrid "continuity," since he only has to rely on recent history. My hope is that Hudlin will fix his mistake, or that another writer will bring Whiteman back and ignore everything that happened in Black Panther. As good a fix as any.

[DaeJi]

----------------
As far as the first six issues and the whole ebony blade thing we have debated that to death through the YEARS. I cap YEARS for emphasis to show we have argued a lot of the same points going on three years now, that is why I posted to the adjectives used to describe a possible motivation behind Hudlin's character choices to be about any thing other then his preferences as an artist and his goal in promoting his social/political commentary. See this is a discussion board so I guess that is what we are here to do is discuss comics but when things start to get "over thunked" I think that voice is needed to make sure we don't over think it you know. We all have discussed what those first 6 issues were about. Do we really need to get back into that again. Well I'm not. Let's talk about the annual.:)

It's hard to forget the first issues, because they cast a long shadow over his work and still influences it. A lot of people say that Hudlin plays in his own little world; they're probably right. This future helps to show that (I mean really, political marriages?). And a lot of people like the character, but hate Hudlin's work. And while he has sort of improved, it's not much. Or enough.

[XPac]

----------------
As far as the first six issues and the whole ebony blade thing we have debated that to death through the YEARS. I cap YEARS for emphasis to show we have argued a lot of the same points going on three years now, that is why I posted to the adjectives used to describe a possible motivation behind Hudlin's character choices to be about any thing other then his preferences as an artist and his goal in promoting his social/political commentary. See this is a discussion board so I guess that is what we are here to do is discuss comics but when things start to get "over thunked" I think that voice is needed to make sure we don't over think it you know. We all have discussed what those first 6 issues were about. Do we really need to get back into that again. Well I'm not. Let's talk about the annual.:)

Someone specifically asked why people had issues with the ebony blade, so people answered. If you have issues with people discussing this particular issue then take it up with the person that asked the question in the first place.

If you don't want to discuss it, then don't. It's as simple as that.

[Sanctus]

------------------

Dude maybe it is really time you pull out if you really start to believe that Reggie Hudlin sits somewhere like an evil dictator thinking how he can "underhandedly" "steal" and "yank" using "dirty pool tactics" to Marvel Characters. Does he promotes a social and political agenda in his books that you don't agree with in his books? Yes. But why make it overt evil, because you don't agree? I like the book so I support it. You don't sooooo? But dude the writer of the Barracuda limited series get criticised from me all the time, however I doubt seriously that he thinks all day on ways to portray black people poorly. Hell I don't care enough about him to remember his name right now.

Garth Ennis is the writer, and people are style making excuses for him instead of saying "you have artistic freedom, but when you choose to use that freedom to mock and belittle a racial group in your work, or ignore them entirely, then you are discrimination positive and probably have fill blown racism."

[dagonbeer]

Personally, I think the biggest problem with how the crossovers (all of them, actually) have been executed is that Hudlin made them all really self-contained. It was made all too easy for the X-Men fan to drop the title after #9, or the Civil War fan to drop after #25, or the Zombie fan to drop after #30(?), because there was nothing in those issues to pique their curiosity into picking up the next issue. No cliffhangers, no continuing subplots, no intriguing supporting characters. The story they came for ended, and the crossover fans acted like they'd been buying a mini-series, and left.

The biggest problem is that Huldin needs to treat other characters with respect. I don't actually own the BP/Xmen crossover issues, so it's been a while and I could be mistaken (prove me wrong), but I remember thinking when I was flipping through them that there wasn't a single scene where Havok, Polaris, Iceman, Rogue (and especially) Wolverine were shown in a good light. It was a continuous series of goofs and "dang, you're right BP, I should've listened to you". How is that supposed to garner fans? How is that an example of good (comic) writing?

[Jackob]

The biggest problem is that Huldin needs to treat other characters with respect. I don't actually own the BP/Xmen crossover issues, so it's been a while and I could be mistaken (prove me wrong), but I remember thinking when I was flipping through them that there wasn't a single scene where Havok, Polaris, Iceman, Rogue (and especially) Wolverine were shown in a good light. It was a continuous series of goofs and "dang, you're right BP, I should've listened to you". How is that supposed to garner fans? How is that an example of good (comic) writing?

exactly, you dont have to put down other characters to make character look good. doing that is a weak/easy way to do it. if you make the others look good and your guy look beter, that is how you make them look good.

[bluezulu]

Good points all around however what ever way it needs to be done a black character should be made to be at the very least as competent/formidable as the other characters in the Marvel U. In this case it is the Black Panther, we are seeing the rise of Cage but I don't see the major push across the board to do this. Let me stop you before you post it, yea this process should be natural but naturally or through force I appreciate Hudlin for doing it. Multiple black heroes on the same panel should be done more consistently, black romance in comics long over due and the black hero that can stand toe to toe mentally with Richards and not flinch when facing cosmic level characters is a good thing. We can argue the execution all day long but the goals of Marvel and Hudlin with this BP run is remarkable. Some posters have started JMS bashing however he will always get a pass from me for Night Hawk. Damn I wish they can give him his own series.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Good points all around however what ever way it needs to be done a black character should be made to be at the very least as competent/formidable as the other characters in the Marvel U. In this case it is the Black Panther, we are seeing the rise of Cage but I don't see the major push across the board to do this. Let me stop you before you post it, yea this process should be natural but naturally or through force I appreciate Hudlin for doing it. Multiple black heroes on the same panel should be done more consistently, black romance in comics long over due and the black hero that can stand toe to toe mentally with Richards and not flinch when facing cosmic level characters is a good thing. We can argue the execution all day long but the goals of Marvel and Hudlin with this BP run is remarkable. Some posters have started JMS bashing however he will always get a pass from me for Night Hawk. Damn I wish they can give him his own series.

Execution, in so many ways, is what matters though, not intent. Few people intend to write a crappy story, after all.

[Walter Hill]

You guys are still discussing Hudlin. Remember in Howard Stern's Private Parts - that scene with Pig Vomit learning the stats for how long people listen to Howard; those who like him and those who hate him -- this is the same case -- at the end of the day -- Hudlin is getting his name out there and a lot of air time. :D

[XPac]

You guys are still discussing Hudlin. Remember in Howard Stern's Private Parts - that scene with Pig Vomit learning the stats for how long people listen to Howard; those who like him and those who hate him -- this is the same case -- at the end of the day -- Hudlin is getting his name out there and a lot of air time. :D

That's certainly true... and what that begins benefitting the Black Panther character in terms of sales, we can all begin feeling good about that fact.

[The Cool Thatguy]

That's certainly true... and what that begins benefitting the Black Panther character in terms of sales, we can all begin feeling good about that fact.

And people know how crappy Hudlin is, so that's double the Panther community service!:D

[DoctorDoom]

Pure Black Panter/Wakanda masturbation in my opinion.

I went there.

[drwho]

That's certainly true... and what that begins benefitting the Black Panther character in terms of sales, we can all begin feeling good about that fact.

I think the problem is though it doesn't benefit the character in terms of sales. :D

[bluedmighty]

The Annual sold out of two stores where I'm at.

[akumasan]

Personally, I dislike Panther using the Ebony Blade for a host of reasons.

1) A hero of Panther's statue shouldn't rely on the signature weapon of someone else. He's not Manhunter, who has to beg and scrap for supplies, he's the king of his own nation. You won't find another A-lister who uses someone else's weapons.

2) It's amazingly useless to anyone but Black Knight. A sword that can cut through anything isn't that hard to make in the MU, but the sword's history rests entirely with Dane Whitman. I'd rather see Panther create his own sword that can cut through anything than steal someone else's.

3) It makes no comic book sense for him to use it, given that the sword's connection is to Dane Whitman. Panther uses the sword to kill someone and it activates the blood curse, and Dane's screwed. Logically, Panther should have given the sword back to Dane by now.

Lastly, and most importantly reason which, IMO is reason enough to dislike the use...

4) The ebony sword was yanked via dirty pool. Hudlin created his own Black Knight with weak justification (there was/is no line of Black Knights, just 3), gave him the ebony blade and then swiped the blade for his title character. Then he has Black Panther keep the sword, claiming that it was abused/used irresponsibly citing the Black Knight he just created out of nowhere as proof.

Hudlin used underhanded tactics to steal the weapon of a B-lister for himself, just because the sword was called 'The Ebony Blade'. What on earth is there to like about that?

1. Spiderman does the same in begging for scraps and supplies so what? Hasnt tony stark stolen a few things? Hasnt wolverine stolen weapons? Ill admit that after reading the book for a while that it got drawn out of him not being in the country but bringing your point about something as trivial as the ebony blade? wow that is beyond silly. Who cares the guy rarely uses it as it is.
2. Well i dont read the book as much, matter of fact not at all but when someone comes to your home and try to attack i think that you do the same as well.
3. That more than enough of a good reason for the clown trying to come in and attack his country. If you had a chance to screw a person over you dont like again you would do the same.
4. true but to be honest it isnt any different than any other hero out there.

Originally Posted by bluezulu
Some posters have started JMS bashing however he will always get a pass from me for Night Hawk. Damn I wish they can give him his own series.im sorry but my comic nerdness isnt strong. Who is this guy?


Originally Posted by dagonbeer
The biggest problem is that Huldin needs to treat other characters with respect. I don't actually own the BP/Xmen crossover issues, so it's been a while and I could be mistaken (prove me wrong), but I remember thinking when I was flipping through them that there wasn't a single scene where Havok, Polaris, Iceman, Rogue (and especially) Wolverine were shown in a good light. It was a continuous series of goofs and "dang, you're right BP, I should've listened to you". How is that supposed to garner fans? How is that an example of good (comic) writing?That is funny only x-fans like yourself will make a complaint like that but then let another marvel character show up the "celestial xmen world" he/she is treated just as bad. It is not any different of brubaker not showing respect to the xmen or the clowns over at ASM not showing respect to parker's marriage and making him a whining bitch over his dying aunt again. Also it mean the same for writers of wwh not showing respect to Iron Fist and Ms Marvel. I could go on and on

[XPac]

1. Spiderman does the same in begging for scraps and supplies so what? Hasnt tony stark stolen a few things? Hasnt wolverine stolen weapons? Ill admit that after reading the book for a while that it got drawn out of him not being in the country but bringing your point about something as trivial as the ebony blade? wow that is beyond silly. Who cares the guy rarely uses it as it is.
2. Well i dont read the book as much, matter of fact not at all but when someone comes to your home and try to attack i think that you do the same as well.
3. That more than enough of a good reason for the clown trying to come in and attack his country. If you had a chance to screw a person over you dont like again you would do the same.
4. true but to be honest it isnt any different than any other hero out there.

i

The ebony blade is trivial to the Black Panther... but it's not trivial to the Black Knight (the character that was using the blade at the time in Exiles while BP had it sitting in his closet). It was an important aspect to the charater and his history.

So I guess that's really the point... if the Ebony Blade is trivial to the Panther, and if he barely uses it, why didn't Hudlin simply have the Ebony Blade returned to the real Black Knight? Seriously, I'm half convinced the only reason Hudlin is having him keep it is because it has the word "ebony" in it.

[The Cool Thatguy]

1. Spiderman does the same in begging for scraps and supplies so what? Hasnt tony stark stolen a few things? Hasnt wolverine stolen weapons? Ill admit that after reading the book for a while that it got drawn out of him not being in the country but bringing your point about something as trivial as the ebony blade? wow that is beyond silly. Who cares the guy rarely uses it as it is.
2. Well i dont read the book as much, matter of fact not at all but when someone comes to your home and try to attack i think that you do the same as well.
3. That more than enough of a good reason for the clown trying to come in and attack his country. If you had a chance to screw a person over you dont like again you would do the same.
4. true but to be honest it isnt any different than any other hero out there.


1) Nope, it's nothing like Spider-Man's webbing, because Spidey isn't stealing the weapon from someone else, he makes it himself. And while yes, turning a weapon back against it's user is a classic, no one holds onto it. It's not trivial to Black Knight, given that 90% of his history revolves around the blade.

2)...what? You don't address my point about creating an indestructable blade at all.

3) The blade is connected to Dane. Panther screws up, and it's Dane that suffers. So know, I wouldn't chance anyone suffering because of my mistake, nor should anyone who wants to be recognized as a hero.

4) Yes, it is different. The Ebony Blade isn't a bullet or arrow. It's a weapon with it's own history and connections. It's Black Knight's signature weapon. Even when he's not using it (Blood Wraith), it's still connected to him (said villain was his squire). I honestly don't recall a time when a character's signature weapon was taken from said character and given to someone else without the person in question's prior death (Quasar), or that character doing something to legitmately earn the weapon (the soul sword how many times?).

[valentine]

I don't follow this book anymore, after years collecting the initial MK run. But the annual sounds interesting, I would have picked it up on the artwork alone.

But let me get this straight: Tony Stark and T'Challa have a battle with robots? And T'Challa wins?


Really?

[valentine]

1. Spiderman does the same in begging for scraps and supplies so what? Hasnt tony stark stolen a few things? Hasnt wolverine stolen weapons? Ill admit that after reading the book for a while that it got drawn out of him not being in the country but bringing your point about something as trivial as the ebony blade? wow that is beyond silly. Who cares the guy rarely uses it as it is.

Man, I almost fell out of my chair laughing.:D

When did Spider-Man, Tony Stark or Wolverine steal anyone's weapons?
I mean, in the same context that BP took BK's. In fact T'Challa stealing the Ebony Blade is like stealing Wolverine's claws and using them in occasional battles.

I actually don't want to bring up the EB debate, it is an old one. But I will say that I'd find it more interesting if T'Challa actually did pick up the curse of the blade as well.

[GalactaSurfer]

I don't follow this book anymore, after years collecting the initial MK run. But the annual sounds interesting, I would have picked it up on the artwork alone.

But let me get this straight: Tony Stark and T'Challa have a battle with robots? And T'Challa wins?


Really?

Yep

Bp with national reasources > IM with government funding

[XPac]

Yep

Bp with national reasources > IM with government funding

If it came down to a battle of resources, I suspect the US and SHIELD would be able to out spend Wakanda.

But really, the reason BP won and Tony lost is because Tony for whatever reason seemed linked to his robot. Whathever happened to the robot happened to Tony. Why Tony would be stupid enough to do this, I don't know... you'd have to ask Hudlin. Maybe Stark had a guilty conscience and a death wish or something, I don't know...

[heretic]

To the critics of the slave trade story angle answer me this. Take every issue of Hudlin's black panther run out of the equation. Hell for that matter take out Priest's as well. So given Stan Lee's and McGregor's history of Wakanda, how in the hell do you have the most powerful technological advanced nation in the world that happens to sit in Africa yet they allow the slave trade to happen with out so much of a blip of involvment? Oh yea they are xenophobic.:rolleyes: . Xenophobic or not if Nations are being conquered to the left and right of you for no other reason then the labor cost, even if you don't want to get involved wouldn't it be a good idea? Wakanda can provide labor and other resources, that would make them a target to be conqured. I like Hudlin's explanation of the minimal engagement then long term solution.A) Wakanda was not that technologically advanced until recently, and rather isolated from either of the Slave Coasts.
B) Beyond holding themselves aloof from it and smacking down those who came in to raid them, they saw little need to bother.
C) The transatlantic slave trade was essentially dead before Europeans headed past a few coastal forts (some of the inital rational for the U.K. moving in was stomping on the Indian Ocean/transsaharan slavers). Adept politics at that point can plausibly keep a place with no strategic importance or known natural resources out from under.

HTG

[valentine]

Yep

Bp with national reasources > IM with government funding

If it came down to a battle of resources, I suspect the US and SHIELD would be able to out spend Wakanda.

But really, the reason BP won and Tony lost is because Tony for whatever reason seemed linked to his robot. Whathever happened to the robot happened to Tony. Why Tony would be stupid enough to do this, I don't know... you'd have to ask Hudlin. Maybe Stark had a guilty conscience and a death wish or something, I don't know...

OK, thanks.

And this American invasion happens when in relation to the wedding of the US President's first daughter and the Wakandan Prince?

Maybe I'll check it out after all, I'm so curious.

And they're after what, Vibranium again? Is it really that hard to come by or synthesize?

[RolandJP]

A)
C) The transatlantic slave trade was essentially dead before Europeans headed past a few coastal forts (some of the inital rational for the U.K. moving in was stomping on the Indian Ocean/transsaharan slavers). Adept politics at that point can plausibly keep a place with no strategic importance or known natural resources out from under.

HTG

WHy transport slaves when your colony is next door to the supply??

By far the most successful West Indian colonies in 1800 belonged to the United Kingdom. After entering the sugar colony business late, British naval supremacy and control over key islands such as Jamaica, Trinidad, and Barbados and the territory of British Guiana gave it an important edge over all competitors; while many British did not make gains, some made enormous fortunes, even by upper class standards. This advantage was reinforced when France lost its most important colony, St. Dominigue (western Hispaniola, now Haiti), to a slave revolt in 1791[50] and supported revolts against its rival Britain, after the 1793 French revolution in the name of liberty (but in fact opportunistic selectivity). Before 1791, British sugar had to be protected to compete against cheaper French sugar.

After 1791, the British islands produced the most sugar, and the British people quickly became the largest consumers. West Indian sugar became ubiquitous as an additive to Indian tea. Nevertheless, the profits of the slave trade and of West Indian plantations amounted to less than 5% of the British economy at the time of the Industrial Revolution in the latter half of the 1700s.[51]

[DoctorDoom]

The Annual sold out of two stores where I'm at.
It sold out? According to Hudlin, that's bad!




Please someone get the joke! Don't leave a gal hanging!

[valentine]

It sold out? According to Hudlin, that's bad!




Please someone get the joke! Don't leave a gal hanging!

<The Todd>Blacksploitation Five</The Todd>

[heretic]

WHy transport slaves when your colony is next door to the supply??

When the colonies are started several decades after making Slavery Illegal....

HTG

[RolandJP]

FTW!!11!!!

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u102/NoPrize/love.jpg

[akumasan]

1) Nope, it's nothing like Spider-Man's webbing, because Spidey isn't stealing the weapon from someone else, he makes it himself. And while yes, turning a weapon back against it's user is a classic, no one holds onto it. It's not trivial to Black Knight, given that 90% of his history revolves around the blade.

2)...what? You don't address my point about creating an indestructable blade at all.

3) The blade is connected to Dane. Panther screws up, and it's Dane that suffers. So know, I wouldn't chance anyone suffering because of my mistake, nor should anyone who wants to be recognized as a hero.

4) Yes, it is different. The Ebony Blade isn't a bullet or arrow. It's a weapon with it's own history and connections. It's Black Knight's signature weapon. Even when he's not using it (Blood Wraith), it's still connected to him (said villain was his squire). I honestly don't recall a time when a character's signature weapon was taken from said character and given to someone else without the person in question's prior death (Quasar), or that character doing something to legitmately earn the weapon (the soul sword how many times?).
1. spidey i was stating about him scraping by. Again it is still trival of a character that your average comic reader could care less about. From what i understand Mr Dane Whitman abandon the blade. If that is the case with the "curse" then the black knight that hudlin created could have done the same mistake as well. Or why would he get back a sword that has this curse?

2. why should I because there will be another weapon that breaks it anyway in the MU so who cares. Just like what happen to thor's hammer

3. Why are you assuminig the current black knight is dane whitman? Other than a person going to wikipedia it is all speculation and even the site doesnt have the info.

If it came down to a battle of resources, I suspect the US and SHIELD would be able to out spend Wakanda.

But really, the reason BP won and Tony lost is because Tony for whatever reason seemed linked to his robot. Whathever happened to the robot happened to Tony. Why Tony would be stupid enough to do this, I don't know... you'd have to ask Hudlin. Maybe Stark had a guilty conscience and a death wish or something, I don't know...easy he is an arrogant rich guy who think he can do whatever he wants. If that is the case then why would he go at hulk head on in WWH inspite of using a nanobite to weaken him that wasnt guaranteed to work?

[The Cool Thatguy]

1. spidey i was stating about him scraping by. Again it is still trival of a character that your average comic reader could care less about. From what i understand Mr Dane Whitman abandon the blade. If that is the case with the "curse" then the black knight that hudlin created could have done the same mistake as well. Or why would he get back a sword that has this curse?

2. why should I because there will be another weapon that breaks it anyway in the MU so who cares. Just like what happen to thor's hammer

3. Why are you assuminig the current black knight is dane whitman? Other than a person going to wikipedia it is all speculation and even the site doesnt have the info.

1) Black Panther is the leader of a highly advanced nation. There's no reason that he would need to 'scrap by' ala Spider-Man. In addition, there's a difference between in desparate need for supplies, and stealing someone else's weapons.

As for Dane Whitman wanting the blade, it's tied to his bloodline and has been his responsibility. He knows the blade's full danger, so why would he want someone else using it?

2) That basically high lights my point. Panther doesn't need the ebony blade to have a sword that can cut through anything.

3) Why wouldn't I presume that Black Knight is Dane Whitman? Until Hudlin created one in his first arc (with no precedent and nothing resembling characterization, just an outdated political parody), there have only ever been two modern Black Knights. And Dane Whitman did pop up after this arc in Excalibur, so why wouldn't he be Black Knight?

[drwho]

The argument holds as much water as Hudlin saying Radioactive man was russian and not chinese. And I dont see 2 radioactive men running around Marvel right now so he must have got it wrong.

[akumasan]

1) Black Panther is the leader of a highly advanced nation. There's no reason that he would need to 'scrap by' ala Spider-Man. In addition, there's a difference between in desparate need for supplies, and stealing someone else's weapons.

As for Dane Whitman wanting the blade, it's tied to his bloodline and has been his responsibility. He knows the blade's full danger, so why would he want someone else using it?

2) That basically high lights my point. Panther doesn't need the ebony blade to have a sword that can cut through anything.

3) Why wouldn't I presume that Black Knight is Dane Whitman? Until Hudlin created one in his first arc (with no precedent and nothing resembling characterization, just an outdated political parody), there have only ever been two modern Black Knights. And Dane Whitman did pop up after this arc in Excalibur, so why wouldn't he be Black Knight?


2. to be honest it an ultimate fuck you to BK regarding him "coming to one's house and starting shit" type of thing BP did to him.

3. again you are assuming that dane whitman is the black knight. there is no evidence at all that the current one is dane whitman. Ah here is something for you:

Whitman reappeared in New Excalibur in the mid-2000s. He has opened up a museum in England chronicling the Black Knights that have existed throughout history. Whitman recently learned that Sir Percy was not the original Black Knight, but that eight men had held the Ebony Blade prior. The Ebony Blade however corrupted these men, and Sir Percy was deemed the only one noble enough to wield the Blade. Also at this time, Merlin told Whitman that he must not destroy the Blade as he had previously been told to do. It is not clear whether he has access to his Avalonian equipment at present. In New Excalibur, Whitman was invited to join the team but after the second adventure with them he refuses as he believes that his Ebony Blade is not the real one and needs to find the original.

[XPac]

2. to be honest it an ultimate fuck you to BK regarding him "coming to one's house and starting shit" type of thing BP did to him.

3. again you are assuming that dane whitman is the black knight. there is no evidence at all that the current one is dane whitman. Ah here is something for you:

Then why doesn't the Black Panther just return the Ebony Blade to Dane Whitman? The obvious answer is that Hudlin wants it for his character, even though BP basically never uses the thing... but it would be nice if there was an in-story reason.

If BP found Caps SHIELD or Thor's hammer, would he decide not to return those too? Is that the type of person BP is?

[akumasan]

Then why doesn't the Black Panther just return the Ebony Blade to Dane Whitman? The obvious answer is that Hudlin wants it for his character, even though BP basically never uses the thing... but it would be nice if there was an in-story reason.

If BP found Caps SHIELD or Thor's hammer, would he decide not to return those too? Is that the type of person BP is?
some funny shit right there comparing Mjolnir, and a vibranium shield to a ebony blade. you just cant compare. lol

im going to say this. When a man attacks you with his weapon in your house and you won the fight why would you give it back?

I dont know if BP is like that.

But i guess it is okay for wolverine to have the nerve to preach to x23 and warpath about killing but he kills people alot but it is all good?

[XPac]

1. some funny shit right there comparing Mjolnir and a vibranium shield to a ebony blade. you just cant compare. lol

im going to say this. When a man attacks you with his weapon in your house and you won the fight why would you give it back?

I dont know if BP is like that.

But i guess it is okay for wolverine to have the nerve to preach to x23 and warpath about killing but he kills people alot but it is all good?

Why not compare the ebony blade to Caps shield or mjolnir? It's magical, it's indestructible... but most importantly it's a trade mark item that belongs to a former teammate. And he knows this.

I guess the question is this... if you have something that you KNOW belongs to someone else, do you give it back or do you keep it? Your answer (and Black Panther's apparently) is that you keep it for yourself. I'll simply say I disgree.

To me, it just makes more sense to Hudlin to have BP give Black Knight back his sword. It's an important part of the character. Black Panther obviously doesn't need it... he's used it maybe one time. Again, I'm seriously wondering if the ONLY reason Hudlin gave Black Panther the sword is because it has the word "ebony" in it.

[The Cool Thatguy]

2. to be honest it an ultimate fuck you to BK regarding him "coming to one's house and starting shit" type of thing BP did to him.

3. again you are assuming that dane whitman is the black knight. there is no evidence at all that the current one is dane whitman. Ah here is something for you:

1) That was a rogue Black Knight, not Dane Whitman. I'm sure Dane would like the weapon stolen from him back.

2/3) You might wanna note that the article that you post says nothing about Dane Whitman either retiring or being replaced. Thus, the current Black Knight is Dane.

[Jackob]

1. some funny shit right there comparing Mjolnir and a vibranium shield to a ebony blade. you just cant compare. lol

im going to say this. When a man attacks you with his weapon in your house and you won the fight why would you give it back?

I dont know if BP is like that.

But i guess it is okay for wolverine to have the nerve to preach to x23 and warpath about killing but he kills people alot but it is all good?

why is that funny those are 3 unique weopons in the MU, there is thors hammer, there is one caps sheild, there is one ebony blade.

and it is clearly not dane that attacked wakanda, it was a wierd vatican black night that huldin just made up out of no where and gave him "the" ebony blade.
and the last we saw dane he was the black knight.

[The Cool Thatguy]

And technically speaking, it really wouldn't be T'Challa's choice. The sword holds an enchantment that returns it to Dane's hands when activated.

Though personally, I'm still wondering how they got the sword away from Blood Wraith, who was over six stories tall with a sword to match a guy his size.

[Yaw]

The argument holds as much water as Hudlin saying Radioactive man was russian and not chinese. And I dont see 2 radioactive men running around Marvel right now so he must have got it wrong.

in case you didn't notice or didn't read that Russian Radioactive man got sliced in half by Panther's sister. That is why you don't see him running around th eMU.

[The Cool Thatguy]

in case you didn't notice or didn't read that Russian Radioactive man got sliced in half by Panther's sister. That is why you don't see him running around th eMU.

...funny how cutting a man in half somehow didn't activate the blood curse ;)

[XPac]

...funny how cutting a man in half somehow didn't activate the blood curse ;)

It really would have made more sense if the the sword Black Panther had was the fake instead of the sword Black Knight had.

[akumasan]

1) That was a rogue Black Knight, not Dane Whitman. I'm sure Dane would like the weapon stolen from him back.

2/3) You might wanna note that the article that you post says nothing about Dane Whitman either retiring or being replaced. Thus, the current Black Knight is Dane.

Let me repeat myself. If the "rogue black knight" was using this cursed blade and made a mistake and dane being screwed would have happened the same way. Besides the blade is probably fake anyway.

Why would an avenger fight another avenger for no reason whatsoever explain that to me. I dont think that it is in Black Knight's nature to fight a teammate.


I guess the question is this... if you have something that you KNOW belongs to someone else, do you give it back or do you keep it? Your answer (and Black Panther's apparently) is that you keep it for yourself. I'll simply say I disgree. Why are you dodging the answer? You are full of yourself if you give back a weapon to someone who came to your home and tried to rob you and you won the fight so stop it.

...funny how cutting a man in half somehow didn't activate the blood curse what makes it funny as well that the same man was one of his robots but whatever

[The Cool Thatguy]

Let me repeat myself. If the "rogue black knight" was using this cursed blade and made a mistake and dane being screwed would have happened the same way. Besides the blade is probably fake anyway.

Why would an avenger fight another avenger for no reason whatsoever explain that to me. I dont think that it is in Black Knight's nature to fight a teammate.

Panther beat the rogue Black Knight. Given that he's a hero, he would logically be concerned about harming Dane than the rogue BK.

And in defiance of all logic, Panther has the real one and Dane the fake, it's been stated.


Why are you dodging the answer? You are full of yourself if you give back a weapon to someone who came to your home and tried to rob you and you won the fight so stop it.

The weapon was stolen from Dane, a fellow Avenger Panther knows very well. Why wouldn't he give it back?

[XPac]

Why are you dodging the answer? You are full of yourself if you give back a weapon to someone who came to your home and tried to rob you and you won the fight so stop it.



I'm not dodging anything. If I was Black Panther, I'd return the sword to Dane Whitman. It's HIS sword. If you think a person is full of themselves for giving something back to the person who actually owns it, then obviously we have very different attitudes about this sort of thing.

I woudln't give it back to the guy that attacked me. But I'm assuming that wasn't Dane Whitman (unless Hudlin wrote that scene even worse than I thought).

[akumasan]

i grow tired arguing with all of the comic nerd gods i need to go to work


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Knight_(comics)

im going to spidey thread see ya

[bluedmighty]

Thanx Xpac aand The Cool Thatguy.

I asked why so many people had a problem with the Ebony Blade and you have answered.

Given that the British Government was in possesion of the Sword, is it possible that Dwane has become a victim of his government the way Armory was made a victim by hers?

Were is the Black Knight now?

I'm not dodging anything. If I was Black Panther, I'd return the sword to Dane Whitman. It's HIS sword. If you think a person is full of themselves for giving something back to the person who actually owns it, then obviously we have very different attitudes about this sort of thing.

I woudln't give it back to the guy that attacked me. But I'm assuming that wasn't Dane Whitman (unless Hudlin wrote that scene even worse than I thought).

My question then becomes were is the Black Knight while The Panther is running around with his sword? Why hasn't anybody mentioned that Panther needs give it back (because of the curse)? Iron Man knows he has it, why not say somethng after the fight or ask where he got it?

[Adon]

I think we need to clarify, as I think there are some crossing wires in communication here.

A rogue Black Knight (who was NOT Dane Whitman) attacked the Black Panther. Panther defeated him, and confiscated the sword. When people are saying the sword was stolen from Dane, I believe they're talking about the fact that it somehow migrated from the Blood Wraith to this guy via the Vatican.

So. Rogue Black Knight has the Ebony Blade. Said Blade belongs to Dane Whitman, being the descendant and heir of Sir Percy of Scandia, the Black Knight of Arthurian times.

What people are (justifiably) complaining about, is that instead of returning this sword to the person it was stolen from, Dane Whitman, Black Panther chooses to keep it on a shelf somewhere in his palace to use it once in a very long while.

The disconnect here is that it seems one party believes that it was Dane who attacked the Panther. It wasn't, it was a one-off character who was using it. If it was, maybe the Panther would be justified in keeping it. However, the thing that is bothering people is that in spite of knowing who the Blade's owner and keeper is, and that this man is a former teammate and that this sword is his signature weapon Panther has decided to keep it himself. The idea that it's 'minor' is both subjective and in this case irrelevant. Black Knight may not be an A-lister, but that doesn't mean that he should have his main weapon yoinked from him for no particularly good reason other than the writer giving his pet character a toy.

Does people being upset about that make sense now?

[The Cool Thatguy]

Thanx Xpac aand The Cool Thatguy.

I asked why so many people had a problem with the Ebony Blade and you have answered.

Given that the British Government was in possesion of the Sword, is it possible that Dwane has become a victim of his government the way Armory was made a victim by hers?

Were is the Black Knight now?

I can't imagine why the English government would have possessed the blade, honestly. I'm fairly certain Black Knight moved his castle to America (or had one built) and last time we saw the blade, it was in the hands of Blood Wraith and the sword had absorbed a nation's worth of souls.

[XPac]

Thanx Xpac aand The Cool Thatguy.

I asked why so many people had a problem with the Ebony Blade and you have answered.

Given that the British Government was in possesion of the Sword, is it possible that Dwane has become a victim of his government the way Armory was made a victim by hers?

Were is the Black Knight now?



My question then becomes were is the Black Knight while The Panther is running around with his sword? Why hasn't anybody mentioned that Panther needs give it back (because of the curse)? Iron Man knows he has it, why not say somethng after the fight or ask where he got it?

The big unknown here is why Dane Whitman even had the sword to begin with. Unless I missed something, last we saw Blood Wrath in Godzilla mode still had it.

But anyways, SOMEHOW Dane Whitman had the sword. But it was stolen from him (presumably by the new Black Knight or people working with him), and replaced by a fake so Dane didn't even know it was missing. Weird that the fake had the blood curse but not the real one.

So Fake Black Knight has the real sword, and loses it to Black Panther... who strangely decides to keep it. Real Black Knight has the fake Ebony Blade, hooks up with Excalibur, realizes it's a fake, and wonders off in search of the real one.

At least that's how I THINK it goes.

[Post-It]

I think BP will return the blade to Dane but not the british government. If I remember correctly it was Capt. Britain who asked on behalf of the British government for the sword to be returned to them, not to the Black Knight.

If Dane were to show up in Wakanda and ask for it, I dont see why BP would deprive him of his family heirloom. Hes not a jerk he just doesn't trust Western governments, with good reason.

[GalactaSurfer]

Um Why are ya bitching about Black Knight? Is he even in ANY comic? If not WTF? Marvel could anything they want with the sword.

When Hudlin is ready to give the sword back to BK he'll write it into a story untill then all your argument are moot.

MOOT I SAY!! :D

[XPac]

Um Why are ya bitching about Black Knight? Is he even in ANY comic? If not WTF? Marvel could anything they want with the sword.

When Hudlin is ready to give the sword back to BK he'll write it into a story untill then all your argument are moot.

MOOT I SAY!! :D

Black Knight was being used in Exiles the same time Black Panther whiped out the Ebony Blade in CW.

That's the irony of it... the only time Hudlin actually bothers having BP use the Ebony Blade is when Black Knight was actually being used in a comic WITH the Ebony Blade. Once Black Knight stops being used, Hudlin has Black Panther return the Ebony Blade to the closet, and has yet to be seen since.

[DoctorDoom]

I think we need to clarify, as I think there are some crossing wires in communication here.

A rogue Black Knight (who was NOT Dane Whitman) attacked the Black Panther. Panther defeated him, and confiscated the sword. When people are saying the sword was stolen from Dane, I believe they're talking about the fact that it somehow migrated from the Blood Wraith to this guy via the Vatican.

So. Rogue Black Knight has the Ebony Blade. Said Blade belongs to Dane Whitman, being the descendant and heir of Sir Percy of Scandia, the Black Knight of Arthurian times.

What people are (justifiably) complaining about, is that instead of returning this sword to the person it was stolen from, Dane Whitman, Black Panther chooses to keep it on a shelf somewhere in his palace to use it once in a very long while.

The disconnect here is that it seems one party believes that it was Dane who attacked the Panther. It wasn't, it was a one-off character who was using it. If it was, maybe the Panther would be justified in keeping it. However, the thing that is bothering people is that in spite of knowing who the Blade's owner and keeper is, and that this man is a former teammate and that this sword is his signature weapon Panther has decided to keep it himself. The idea that it's 'minor' is both subjective and in this case irrelevant. Black Knight may not be an A-lister, but that doesn't mean that he should have his main weapon yoinked from him for no particularly good reason other than the writer giving his pet character a toy.

Does people being upset about that make sense now?

That's kind of perfect. Nice.

[GalactaSurfer]

Black Knight was being used in Exiles the same time Black Panther whiped out the Ebony Blade in CW.

That's the irony of it... the only time Hudlin actually bothers having BP use the Ebony Blade is when Black Knight was actually being used in a comic WITH the Ebony Blade. Once Black Knight stops being used, Hudlin has Black Panther return the Ebony Blade to the closet, and has yet to be seen since.

Funny thing is the same type of disreguard you guys say Hudlin has for cannon is the same thing that happened with that Exiles story.

Black Panther was already in possesion of the sword when that story was written but they still proceeded to use it.

[XPac]

Funny thing is the same type of disreguard you guys say Hudlin has for cannon is the same thing that happened with that Exiles story.

Black Panther was already in possesion of the sword when that story was written but they still proceeded to use it.

Nothing funny about it. The writer of that story (who was a fill in) actually admitted his mistake and corrected the continuity error in the story. The mistake was addressed and fixed on the Exiles side of things.

Perhaps had we seen some effort on Hudlin's part to correct or at least address his continuity errors, he wouldn't get some of the head he does.

[GalactaSurfer]

Nothing funny about it. The writer of that story (who was a fill in) actually admitted his mistake and corrected the continuity error in the story. The mistake was addressed and fixed on the Exiles side of things.

Perhaps had we seen some effort on Hudlin's part to correct or at least address his continuity errors, he wouldn't get some of the head he does.

Yeah ya give him alot of head :rolleyes: :D

What continuity errors are you talking about? The rouge BK? He made his own Bk so what! I've seen shite like this happen all the time in comic especially the big 2 so Hudlin gets head because he does it too.

[XPac]

Yeah ya give him alot of head :rolleyes: :D

What continuity errors are you talking about? The rouge BK? He made his own Bk so what! I've seen shite like this happen all the time in comic especially the big 2 so Hudlin gets head because he does it too.

The continuity error I'm most bothered with is Klaw myself.

But in regards to the Black Knight, he seemingly is ignoring the Blood Curse aspets of the sword (aspects the fake sword that showed up in Exiles possessed, ironically enough).

[GalactaSurfer]

The continuity error I'm most bothered with is Klaw myself.

But in regards to the Black Knight, he seemingly is ignoring the Blood Curse aspets of the sword (aspects the fake sword that showed up in Exiles possessed, ironically enough).

Blood cure only works on Europeans! :D

Nah but seriously that element of the character could of been dealt with if they had tied the Exiles story with BP, no need for a mulitple part story just a simple tie in, but that probably hudlin fault too right or maybe the X-office just doesnt like to play in other peoples sandbox. I dont know?

[XPac]

Blood cure only works on Europeans! :D

Nah but seriously that element of the character could of been dealt with if they had tied the Exiles story with BP, no need for a mulitple part story just a simple tie in, but that probably hudlin fault too right or maybe the X-office just doesnt like to play in other peoples sandbox. I dont know?

If Hudlin decided to give Black Panther the sword, then in my opinion it's his job to explain any changes from the previous status quo. Excalibur did their part... they admitted Dane has a fake, which allowed Hudlin to do whatever he wanted to do with the sword he wrote his character to have.

But short answer is yes... if Hudlin is writing the book, I blame Hudlin for any continuity errors unless I have reason not to.

[Alphaxman]

But isn't that the whole point. Nether Black Panther nor the Black Knight should have the blade. Even if it is the real Ebony Blade why would Dane want it back? He did stop using it because if caused him too much hell. Until the cruse is stated or the Bloodwraith is seen again without the blade I say that both are fakes. End of story.

[XPac]

But isn't that the whole point. Nether Black Panther nor the Black Knight should have the blade. Even if it is the real Ebony Blade why would Dane want it back? He did stop using it because if caused him too much hell. Until the cruse is stated or the Bloodwraith is seen again without the blade I say that both are fakes. End of story.

I frankly wish that the sword BP had was a fake too. It would make sense since there's obviously no blood curse attached. And if it was a fake, then BP would have an obvious reason not to bother returning it to Dane.

In regards to Dane wanting the sword... I think its' realistic for him to be searching for it since he likely feels the sword is his responsiblity. Plus, we know the Blood Curse, if activated, can potentiall effect him whether he's the one using it or not.

But various people at Marvel have said when asked that Black Panther has the real sword. Until someone says different, I think we have to go with that.

[Valeria Kementari]

Dudes, it wasn't Exiles, it was New Excalibur.

And it's pretty stupid to allow BP to keep Black Knight's CURSED sword... BK should goover to wakanda and kick BP's ass for stealing his sword :D

[The Cool Thatguy]

Funny thing is the same type of disreguard you guys say Hudlin has for cannon is the same thing that happened with that Exiles story.

Black Panther was already in possesion of the sword when that story was written but they still proceeded to use it.

Imagine that. Using Black Knight's signature weapon in a Black Knight story :rolleyes:

[Adon]

I frankly wish that the sword BP had was a fake too. It would make sense since there's obviously no blood curse attached. And if it was a fake, then BP would have an obvious reason not to bother returning it to Dane.

In regards to Dane wanting the sword... I think its' realistic for him to be searching for it since he likely feels the sword is his responsiblity. Plus, we know the Blood Curse, if activated, can potentiall effect him whether he's the one using it or not.

But various people at Marvel have said when asked that Black Panther has the real sword. Until someone says different, I think we have to go with that.

The responsibility bit is key here. Dane having the sword isn't a matter of want. It's duty. It's a burden as much as a boon to have the Ebony Blade, and the fact that its drawbacks are being ignored in BP is only more frustrating to people.

The Knight not being in a current book isn't the point, and never was. It's the fact that he has apparently decided that he is the only person qualified to keep it without even trying to tell Dane just screams of hubris.

It struck me the other day that the BP under Hudlin reminds me a lot of Richard Rahl in the 'Sword of Truth' series of books. That is, he has the drawback (to readers) of having the writer flagrantly in his corner. Everything he does is right because the writer believes it to be so. He's written to be flagrantly superior to all around him because, again, the writer loves his pet character so. He gets to have one of the (arguably THE) foremost female characters in the MU as his bride and somehow reduced to his sidekick because the writer has decided that he is JUST! THAT! AWESOME! :p And the writer and readers who like it that way just can't really grasp why others don't like it.

In D&D, he's a munchkin character, with Hudlin as an indulgent DM who fudges things in his favor time and time again. That's my take on it anyway.

[The Cool Thatguy]

The responsibility bit is key here. Dane having the sword isn't a matter of want. It's duty. It's a burden as much as a boon to have the Ebony Blade, and the fact that its drawbacks are being ignored in BP is only more frustrating to people.

The Knight not being in a current book isn't the point, and never was. It's the fact that he has apparently decided that he is the only person qualified to keep it without even trying to tell Dane just screams of hubris.

It struck me the other day that the BP under Hudlin reminds me a lot of Richard Rahl in the 'Sword of Truth' series of books. That is, he has the drawback (to readers) of having the writer flagrantly in his corner. Everything he does is right because the writer believes it to be so. He's written to be flagrantly superior to all around him because, again, the writer loves his pet character so. He gets to have one of the (arguably THE) foremost female characters in the MU as his bride and somehow reduced to his sidekick because the writer has decided that he is JUST! THAT! AWESOME! :p And the writer and readers who like it that way just can't really grasp why others don't like it.

In D&D, he's a munchkin character, with Hudlin as an indulgent DM who fudges things in his favor time and time again. That's my take on it anyway.


...what you said ;)

Though for the record, I would contend that T'Challa doesn't need the writer in his corner to be uber bad ass. He's a genius, has physical ability on par with Captain America and an entire nation behind him. The first two easily make him a contender and the last one puts him over the top.

Yes, he's not A-list as far as readers go, but IMO Stan did intend him to be A-list as far as characters and ability goes. It's just a shame and so annoying to see Hudlin doing it so freakin' wrong!

[drwho]

Tchalla is so bad ass that not even ancient curses put on swords by white people work on him. Yep I went there. :p

[RolandJP]

Tchalla is so bad ass that not even ancient curses put on swords by white people work on him. Yep I went there. :p


Im glad you did. Panther is superbad!

[The Cool Thatguy]

Im glad you did. Panther is superbad!

...I just can't respect anyone who needs help fighting Batroc :p

[Croxx]

From what I understand, Black Panther only uses the Ebony Blade while wearing his "Thrice Blessed Armour". So the curse should not effect him.





The continuity error I'm most bothered with is Klaw myself.

But in regards to the Black Knight, he seemingly is ignoring the Blood Curse aspets of the sword (aspects the fake sword that showed up in Exiles possessed, ironically enough).

[The Cool Thatguy]

From what I understand, Black Panther only uses the Ebony Blade while wearing his "Thrice Blessed Armour". So the curse should not effect him.

That protects Dane how, exactly?

[GalactaSurfer]

That protects Dane how, exactly?

I think you forgot this is a Black Panther thread ;)

[bluedmighty]

Is the character in Exiles 616 Whitman?

Maybe they 're saying the curse is his regardless of the Blade?

[Alan2099]

If Panther gets to kep the sword, Dane should get to rule Wakanda. It's only fair.

[XPac]

If Panther gets to kep the sword, Dane should get to rule Wakanda. It's only fair.

I doubt BP would care either way.

He hasn't shown a particularly strong interesting in using the Ebony Blade or in even bothering to set foot in Wakanda in a very very long long time.

[RolandJP]

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u102/NoPrize/BLAP022_col.jpg

[The Cool Thatguy]

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u102/NoPrize/BLAP022_col.jpg

*pfft*

In the last Panther series, all Panther needed to take Iron Man down a few notches was a power glove and a house hold cleaning product. How the mighty have fallen :p

[Loren]

Can we forget the sword matter, or at least take it to another thread? I expressed my own feelings on it, but we now have four straight pages of debate (almost 1/4 of this thread) over a weapon that doesn't even appear in the Annual.

[drwho]

Isn't BP debate about anything better than nothing all?

[RolandJP]

Isn't BP debate about anything better than nothing all?

There is nothing to debate about the annual, it was executed well, the story held interest- mine at least. I was satisfied with it.