Black Panther Annual #1 *spoilers*

[Alphaxman]

I know we should get passed the sword issue but how would BP using the sward effect Dane when Bloodwraith killed so many people that he became a giant and I don’t remember it harming Dane that much. Maybe I wrong. :confused:

[GalactaSurfer]

Big ups to Hudlin for droppin a great story for black history month! Too bad it was the only comic at Marvel to do so but whatever.

People hate Hudlin but he really does right by the people who are really buying the book and want a Black Panther connected to an Afrocentric culture.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Big ups to Hudlin for droppin a great story for black history month! Too bad it was the only comic at Marvel to do so but whatever.

People hate Hudlin but he really does right by the people who are really buying the book and want a Black Panther connected to an Afrocentric culture.

...even when he gets it so obviously wrong? :(

[Monty_Cristo]

If Panther gets to kep the sword, Dane should get to rule Wakanda. It's only fair.

Dane's first priority should be to stop sucking so bad that they replaced him with someone named "Sir Percy." good grief! he used to be so cool.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Dane's first priority should be to stop sucking so bad that they replaced him with someone named "Sir Percy." good grief! he used to be so cool.

...when did that happen? Sir Percy was the original Black Knight, the one Dane replaced.

If you're referring to Hudlin's Black Knight...I doubt that anyone will use him anytime soon.

[RolandJP]

...when did that happen? Sir Percy was the original Black Knight, the one Dane replaced.

If you're referring to Hudlin's Black Knight...I doubt that anyone will use him anytime soon.


The sad thing is, you are right. Its one of the things I hate about the lack of editorial cohesion. Creators get to pick and choose what they want to depict in their books regardless of whats written by other writers. Why have an editor at all.

[valentine]

OK, back to annual talk.
After reading the annual, I understand what the book is trying to accomplish.

This "Black Panther" reads as a fairy tale, IMO. It has all the elements of a really good bedtime story. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but it might put off those who are interested and invested in the Black Panther that was running around with the Avengers, etc.

Personally, I found it a hard read. I tried to ignore and avoid the historical potholes, but it was a bit difficult.

Tony going evil-crazy? That's getting a bit old now. This need to turn him into a villain seems to be the "in" thing. How much Vibranium does the US need that T'Challa isn't willing to trade/sell? There's been so much distributed around the world already, it seems strange to me. Captain America's shield is (partly) made from the stuff.

Would have loved to see more of the new Black Panther, she seemed interesting.

The art was also really great. Loved the interpretation of the Panther from the late 1800s(?)

Yeah, that's all I got.

[Frostbite883]

Would have loved to see more of the new Black Panther, she seemed interesting.



She's a possible future version of Shuri (T'Challa's sister) who
was given the BP mantle after King T'Challa retired as BP
sometime in a different time period.

[Frostbite883]

Double post.

[da gooch]

You think it's a race issue because that makes it easier to dismiss the legitmate complaints about the series. Which is understandable, given that some of those complaints have basis in historical fact .

Nothin' wrong with power fantasy, but they have to be done well. Panther has virtually no supporting cast, no real subplots and no recurring rogues. Even if the series isn't half as bad as it's critics say, it's average at best. Is that what you want for the foremost African (American) hero in the MU?
For somebody who says they are so race neutral, you always seem to be the first one to bring it up

[da gooch]

Ya know, Cage's daughter marrying in a political marriage reminds me of Bush's daughter...no, Clinton's daughter...no, Reagan's son...no...

I'm sorry, in the entire history of the United States, I don't ever remember an arranged marriage between a president's child and the child of a foreign power.

Can someone kindly explain to me what world Hudlin is living in?


It was not an arranged marriage, it was two families that grew up together, Panthers son and cages daughter grew up as friends, almost like cousins, it was the whole reason why storm was having the talk with her son


:confused: I thought you actually read the book:confused:

[akumasan]

It was not an arranged marriage, it was two families that grew up together, Panthers son and cages daughter grew up as friends, almost like cousins, it was the whole reason why storm was having the talk with her son


:confused: I thought you actually read the book:confused:
PROBABLY NOT

[The Cool Thatguy]

For somebody who says they are so race neutral, you always seem to be the first one to bring it up


I dont understand why people think all the History stuff was heavy handed, it was well woven into Wakandan history.
I get them feeling that people are just uncomfortable with the subject of African history, no surpirse there.

That was the first post in this thread to bring up race. Had you bothered to read the thread before posting, you might know that. Hell, I'm curious how you can say I 'always do something' when you've had all of three posts at this board to date.

As for my post, I've seen many people praise Hudlin for addressing African (American, due to his readers) issues. I'm simply pointing out, and have pointed out, that Hudlin's gotten it wrong. And that his writing is average (at best), yet he's writing an intended A-lister.

[da gooch]

That was the first post in this thread to bring up race. Had you bothered to read the thread before posting, you might know that. Hell, I'm curious how you can say I 'always do something' when you've had all of three posts at this board to date.

As for my post, I've seen many people praise Hudlin for addressing African (American, due to his readers) issues. I'm simply pointing out, and have pointed out, that Hudlin's gotten it wrong. And that his writing is average (at best), yet he's writing an intended A-lister.

Its called lurking, i been doing it here for several months. It is just an observation.

I frequent other boards and rarely post there too, and i have seen the same pattern on other boards as well.



Here is how a typical BP thread goes


Poster: Hey I liked that BP issue, or I liked that FF issue


You: You know It was bad, I hate the writer, he is a race baiter, I hate his continuity, I love Priest, Blah, blah, blah, blah. (this is a paraphrase of the theme not your actual words)




All of the BP threads on this board, at least 20% of the post are yours and how much you hate the current writer, you hate his continuity, and you feel he is a race baiter and you wish Priest was still writing the title.

IT gets old. So old that I came out of lurkdom.

It not just you it is others too. I get that you have a strong dislike for the current direction of the book, But must every single BP thread get derailed with the SAME OLD SHITE over and over again.

You and others manage to bring it up in some round about way, and then cry the race card thing. Not to mention that once somebody brings it up, you and others bring the gasoline to turn the little spark into a great fire.


The average BP thread has 3 pages discussing the actual content, 4 pages discussing a continuity gripe, and 12 pages of the same variation of how much you hate the current series.


Again you are perfectly entitled to your own opinion. But must we constantly beat a horse that died 34 issues and 1 annual ago? The horse is decaying and the maggots are feasting.


Oh and can you please tell me what you mean by afrocentric culture and how said writer gets it wrong.

And now back to our regularly scheduled program

[The Cool Thatguy]

Its called lurking, i been doing it here for several months. It is just an observation.

I frequent other boards and rarely post there too, and i have seen the same pattern on other boards as well.



Here is how a typical BP thread goes


Poster: Hey I liked that BP issue, or I liked that FF issue


You: You know It was bad, I hate the writer, he is a race baiter, I hate his continuity, I love Priest, Blah, blah, blah, blah. (this is a paraphrase of the theme not your actual words)




All of the BP threads on this board, at least 20% of the post are yours and how much you hate the current writer, you hate his continuity, and you feel he is a race baiter and you wish Priest was still writing the title.

IT gets old. So old that I came out of lurkdom.

It not just you it is others too. I get that you have a strong dislike for the current direction of the book, But must every single BP thread get derailed with the SAME OLD SHITE over and over again.

You and others manage to bring it up in some round about way, and then cry the race card thing. Not to mention that once somebody brings it up, you and others bring the gasoline to turn the little spark into a great fire.


The average BP thread has 3 pages discussing the actual content, 4 pages discussing a continuity gripe, and 12 pages of the same variation of how much you hate the current series.


Again you are perfectly entitled to your own opinion. But must we constantly beat a horse that died 34 issues and 1 annual ago? The horse is decaying and the maggots are feasting.


Oh and can you please tell me what you mean by afrocentric culture and how said writer gets it wrong.

And now back to our regularly scheduled program

Couple of things...

First, I've been relatively silent about Hudlin's Panther for a while now. It's just that some stuff sucks so much...I gotta speak up.

Second, I freely admit that alot of the complaints about Hudlin have been repetitive. That's because he still has the same problems and yet refuses to fix them. Lack of repeat rogues, real supporting cast, subplots, etc.

Third, you've lurked and I've debated. And 90% of the time, it's the Hudlin supporters who bring up the race card, usually as a distraction. Hell, Sinjection admitted to basically acting as a troll using race on the Hudlin board and was embraced by that community. So yeah, that ain't my sin.

Finally, what Hudlin gets wrong isn't afrocentric culture (we barely see Wakanda, so it's hard to judge the culture), but the political symbolism of the book. In this annual, he treats the slave trade and colonization as happening right after the other, when it didn't. His first arc, he used outdated symbolism from the Cold War and older. And when he used the Arabian Knight, his two main figureheads (parodies/stereotypes of Saddam and Arafat) were non factors (Arafat was dead, and Saddam captured).

[SUPERECWFAN1]

If Panther gets to kep the sword, Dane should get to rule Wakanda. It's only fair.

They had something cool in New Excalibur with that Teri arc. Where they had Dane get the sword. Of course you can't piss on Hollywood ya know...so that good story-arc was dropped from the face of the Earth and we'll never see a conclusion to it.

[RolandJP]

Couple of things...

First, I've been relatively silent about Hudlin's Panther for a while now. It's just that some stuff sucks so much...I gotta speak up.

Second, I freely admit that alot of the complaints about Hudlin have been repetitive. That's because he still has the same problems and yet refuses to fix them. Lack of repeat rogues, real supporting cast, subplots, etc.

Third, you've lurked and I've debated. And 90% of the time, it's the Hudlin supporters who bring up the race card, usually as a distraction. Hell, Sinjection admitted to basically acting as a troll using race on the Hudlin board and was embraced by that community. So yeah, that ain't my sin.

Finally, what Hudlin gets wrong isn't afrocentric culture (we barely see Wakanda, so it's hard to judge the culture), but the political symbolism of the book. In this annual, he treats the slave trade and colonization as happening right after the other, when it didn't. His first arc, he used outdated symbolism from the Cold War and older. And when he used the Arabian Knight, his two main figureheads (parodies/stereotypes of Saddam and Arafat) were non factors (Arafat was dead, and Saddam captured).


First, no one is saying you cannot have your own opinion about Hudlin or BP, as long as its stated as just your opinion. As for me I am enjoying his run.

Secondly, once again its because Hudlins writing isnt to your particular liking...


And Thirdly---Black people didnt invent the race card--so it should not be credited to us. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/special_report/1999/02/99/e-cyclopedia/1292973.stm

ORIGINS: believed to have been coined in the UK in the 1960s. Conservative candidate in by-election in Smethwick was accused of using the slogan "If you want a black neighbour - vote Labour". He won the seat. Coining the Phrase using the race card.

[Alan2099]

And Thirdly---Black people didnt invent the race card--so it should not be credited to us. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/special_report/1999/02/99/e-cyclopedia/1292973.stm

ORIGINS: believed to have been coined in the UK in the 1960s. Conservative candidate in by-election in Smethwick was accused of using the slogan "If you want a black neighbour - vote Labour". He won the seat. Coining the Phrase using the race card.

Nobody said you invented the race card. You just use it.

I have no clue who invented the insult, but if I started flinging them around, I'd be the one taking the blame. Own up to what you are, not what so long gone people you've never met did.

[GalactaSurfer]

Nobody said you invented the race card. You just use it.

I have no clue who invented the insult, but if I started flinging them around, I'd be the one taking the blame. Own up to what you are, not what so long gone people you've never met did.

Im the one who alledgedly use the "race card" :rolleyes: if you wanna call it that I dont care.

African History has always been controversial thats the card i was playing because people were getting all worked up about slave trade and imperialism details in the ish.

Theres no need to get all nitpick-y because it serves the story. The only people that are bothered by the depiction of those elements are people who dont like to revisit that subject matter becuase it offends them on some level.

[HepOne]

This thread is a Mess


The average BP thread has 3 pages discussing the actual content, 4 pages discussing a continuity gripe, and 12 pages of the same variation of how much you hate the current series.

QFT. I am not singling out 'The Cool Thatguy' but this discussion has been had many, many, many times. The last 8 pages have been spent discussing events from the 1st arc AGAIN.



First, I've been relatively silent about Hudlin's Panther for a while now. It's just that some stuff sucks so much...I gotta speak up.
not true I had a discussion with many of the SAME writers in this thread 1 month ago in the 29 page #33 thread. the second reply in the thread was this
I don't think anyone's going to be too terribly surprised by a poorly written, race baiting issue penned by Hudlin. It's all but his trademark by now.
Back to 'discussing' this issue.


Second, I freely admit that alot of the complaints about Hudlin have been repetitive. That's because he still has the same problems and yet refuses to fix them. Lack of repeat rogues, real supporting cast, subplots, etc.

This has been addressed Rogues=Cannibal; Supporting Cast=Sister, Cousin, Mother, Storm,F4; Subplots=Wakandan foreign policy, userpers of the throne. etc.



Finally, what Hudlin gets wrong isn't afrocentric culture (we barely see Wakanda, so it's hard to judge the culture), but the political symbolism of the book. In this annual, he treats the slave trade and colonization as happening right after the other

By using Black Panther and Storm- 2 african characters he is attempting to write african culture. Colonisation isn't mentioned in the issue AT ALL. I have avoided the thread this long because it seemed to be a repeat of last month. I ask comic fans on both sides just to cool it and read/comment on the specific issues. On that point I will do the same

Black Panther Annual #1 was a good issue that attempted to cram in too much. The explanaition of Wakanda's role in the slave trade was a good idea and an important one. It was not a problem that Hudlin had created, but a problem that Stan Lee/ Jack Kirby had created. I thought that Hudlin did a good job on this issue, it must have been tough to straddle Wakandan Warrior Culture and realistic slave trade issues.
The Future section was weaker, I didnt like seeing Stark as a villain again but the outrage in this thread doesn't make sense. This has been done many times even pre-civil war. Its not that serious, this is a 'what if' issue in all but name, the discussions about the validity of Cage's presidency are unneccesary and stupid. There would be no discussion about this if it had appeared in exiles. The frogs even say and i quote "no, yes its a possible future. you know how alternate timelines work". Before some one attempts to say 'why wasnt it a what if then?' I will say that this has never prevented Marvel and X-Men in particular from doing it before (AOA, DOTFP, Here Comes tommorow, Cable, Bishop etc.).

[The Cool Thatguy]

First, no one is saying you cannot have your own opinion about Hudlin or BP, as long as its stated as just your opinion. As for me I am enjoying his run.

Secondly, once again its because Hudlins writing isnt to your particular liking...


And Thirdly---Black people didnt invent the race card--so it should not be credited to us. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/special_report/1999/02/99/e-cyclopedia/1292973.stm

ORIGINS: believed to have been coined in the UK in the 1960s. Conservative candidate in by-election in Smethwick was accused of using the slogan "If you want a black neighbour - vote Labour". He won the seat. Coining the Phrase using the race card.

Sigh...just once I wish Hudlin fans would reply to what I actually wrote, instead of what they think I wrote. Why is that so much to ask?

1) I'm not claiming censorship, by anyone. As a matter of fact, I agree somewhat with Da Gooch. Continued comments about the lack of quality are pointless and spoil the enjoyment of others. Sometimes they're legitmate complaints, sometimes it's just sour grapes. But, even the strongest dam must have release ;)

2) I never said that people shouldn't like Hudlin's writing (though I am hard pressed to understand it ;)), just that the complaints of those who don't remain unchanged (by this I mean the lack of repeat rogues, actually using Wakanda, no supporting cast, etc.) for a reason.

3) Might I say...WTF? I didn't bring 'the race card' at all in my post. I brought up Hudlin's poor depiction of historical fact and poor political stereotypes. There's little race in that.

You might be referring to my earlier post, but if you actually read it, you'd see that I was simply noting that I wasn't the first one to bring up race in this thread.

[RolandJP]

Sigh...just once I wish Hudlin fans would reply to what I actually wrote, instead of what they think I wrote. Why is that so much to ask?

1) I'm not claiming censorship, by anyone. As a matter of fact, I agree somewhat with Da Gooch. Continued comments about the lack of quality are pointless and spoil the enjoyment of others. Sometimes they're legitmate complaints, sometimes it's just sour grapes. But, even the strongest dam must have release ;)

2) I never said that people shouldn't like Hudlin's writing (though I am hard pressed to understand it ;)), just that the complaints of those who don't remain unchanged (by this I mean the lack of repeat rogues, actually using Wakanda, no supporting cast, etc.) for a reason.

3) Might I say...WTF? I didn't bring 'the race card' at all in my post. I brought up Hudlin's poor depiction of historical fact and poor political stereotypes. There's little race in that.

You might be referring to my earlier post, but if you actually read it, you'd see that I was simply noting that I wasn't the first one to bring up race in this thread.

Apologies. I just hate the word "Race Card" It makes me go Malcolm little. As you know, I feel like a lot of your criticisms are valid. I just think Hudlin has improved..and it is my belief that he has turned the book around and is writing some good stuff.

Off topic- but I wish J.J. Kirby were handling the Art chores.

[AllisterH]

I'm black and I do think Hudlin made a misstep on the Civil War issues based on being an American writer. Similar to how Slott wrote about the Superhero Civil War

1. Wakanda, I always envisioned, as having a social system MUCH more in keeping with the European model than the American model. Germany would be a good example in that not only does Wakanda have socialized medicine, but also the larger part Germany's government play in education.

Countries like Germany with a stronger socialized system REQUIRE the people to have more faith in the government. The reason why America would never have socialized healthcare _IS_ the boogeyman of government being involved.

2. I just don't see Panther NOT knowing the identity of all mutants/superhumans in his country. Its equivalent to Batman not knowing the secret identity of every costumer clown in HIS city. That said, it is hypocritical for Panther to be pissed that the US wants to know the identity of all superheroes in its borders.

T'challa certainly wouldn't tolerate it, why should the US?

[XPac]

I'm black and I do think Hudlin made a misstep on the Civil War issues based on being an American writer. Similar to how Slott wrote about the Superhero Civil War

1. Wakanda, I always envisioned, as having a social system MUCH more in keeping with the European model than the American model. Germany would be a good example in that not only does Wakanda have socialized medicine, but also the larger part Germany's government play in education.

Countries like Germany with a stronger socialized system REQUIRE the people to have more faith in the government. The reason why America would never have socialized healthcare _IS_ the boogeyman of government being involved.

2. I just don't see Panther NOT knowing the identity of all mutants/superhumans in his country. Its equivalent to Batman not knowing the secret identity of every costumer clown in HIS city. That said, it is hypocritical for Panther to be pissed that the US wants to know the identity of all superheroes in its borders.

T'challa certainly wouldn't tolerate it, why should the US?

There are plenty of elements of the SHRA aside from the secret identity thing that BP might have a problem with.

That aside, I think from Hudlin's perspective the SHRA was a starting point for the US being more aggressive globally. The US government and public became paranoid... and BP rightfly feared that the parania would eventually spill outside of US boarders.

Look at the nations that BP began allying himself with... and look at those nations now. The Inhumans were bombed, Atlantis was evacuated, and Latveria is being invaded as we speak in MA. The US has basically taken out every other great power on earth in the span of a few months since CW except Wakanda.

[DaeJi]

Look at the nations that BP began allying himself with... and look at those nations now. The Inhumans were bombed, Atlantis was evacuated, and Latveria is being invaded as we speak in MA. The US has basically taken out every other great power on earth in the span of a few months since CW except Wakanda.

And China and Russia and England and France and Japan and Germany and Canada... you get the point. The greatest danger to Wakanda at the moment is bad writing (it's screwed). Silent War would have happened Civil War or not, the same with Atlantis. And Latveria. Actually, Civil War had all of nada to do with any of that. Funny how things work out. And how is the U.S. responsible for Atlantis? And didn't Fury lead a covert invasion of Latveria well before Civil War?

[XPac]

And China and Russia and England and France and Japan and Germany and Canada... you get the point. The greatest danger to Wakanda at the moment is bad writing (it's screwed). Silent War would have happened Civil War or not, the same with Atlantis. And Latveria. Actually, Civil War had all of nada to do with any of that. Funny how things work out.

Honestly, I wouldn't consider any of those nations you mentioned great powers. With the US' near monopoly on the super hero community, really none of those nations would really register as any kind of potential threat.

In theory, the only check and balance against the US would be SHIELD... but the US has basically compromised SHIELD into being their own personal army (which conviniently can operate freely in other countries and under it's own rules).

And you're not getting my point exactly... the US acting more aggresive isn't because of the Registration. The same parania which caused that fueled this as well. The government and publi got scared... and they did what government does when it's scared. It lashes out. Because of the pubics fear, they give the government the mandate to go ahead. 911 illustrates that to some degree.

Prior to Civil War, the government chose not to invade Latveria, even on Nick Furys recommendation. Obviously that's not an issue now. In regards to Atlantis... Civil War had a BIT to do with that. Stark intentionally tried to create a public fear that the US would go to at war with Atlantis to get public support for the Initiative. So a part of the justification for the Initiative was preparing for a potenial war with them (though Namor likewise did his part to escalate things).

Silent War is a more indirect thing. I personally think the US basially trying to commit Genoide on the Inhuman population was simply a bit of fall out from Stamford... I'm assuming under different circumstances they wouldn't have acted that severely. But that's debatable I suppose.

[DaeJi]

In regards to Atlantis... Civil War had a BIT to do with that. Stark intentionally tried to create a public fear that the US would go to at war with Atlantis to get public support for the Initiative. So a part of the justification for the Initiative was preparing for a potenial war with them (though Namor likewise did his part to escalate things).

I'm talking about the recent Namor mini. I don't see how Civil War or the SHRA played into that.


Silent War is a more indirect thing. I personally think the US basially trying to commit Genoide on the Inhuman population was simply a bit of fall out from Stamford... I'm assuming under different circumstances they wouldn't have acted that severely. But that's debatable I suppose.

Honestly, I think in this case Skrulls may have been behind what happened, given certain clues (like BB being a Skrull). But even then, I would think that M-Day would have played a bigger part than Stamford.

[XPac]

I'm talking about the recent Namor mini. I don't see how Civil War or the SHRA played into that.



Honestly, I think in this case Skrulls may have been behind what happened, given certain clues (like BB being a Skrull). But even then, I would think that M-Day would have played a bigger part than Stamford.

The Namor mini occured because of what happened in CW. The sleepers, the stages assasimation attempts by Tony, Namors's participation in the war... it all built up towards what we saw in the mini.

As for M Day... it obviously brought about CW at least in regards to Quicksilver's actions leading to the US getting their terrogen mist. But in regards to the US using suicide bombers to blow up their city and kill innocent civilians... I'm assuming that wouldn't have happened had Stamford not hightened the fear of superhumans in government and public. Again, that's just speculation... maybe the US government was always that evil (and if that's the case, BP's fear of them is pretty justified).

I actually think the government probably was happy amount M day. It basially meant less mutants.

[DaeJi]

The Namor mini occured because of what happened in CW. The sleepers, the stages assasimation attempts by Tony, Namors's participation in the war... it all built up towards what we saw in the mini.

I think Atlantis would have ended up that way had Civil War happened or not. Wasn't Namor's son behind the whole thing? Civil War just gave the opportunity.


As for M Day... it obviously brought about CW at least in regards to Quicksilver's actions leading to the US getting their terrogen mist. But in regards to the US using suicide bombers to blow up their city and kill innocent civilians... I'm assuming that wouldn't have happened had Stamford not hightened the fear of superhumans in government and public. Again, that's just speculation... maybe the US government was always that evil (and if that's the case, BP's fear of them is pretty justified).

I'm seeing Skrulls here. No joke, I think they may (should) have had a hand in how things went down. As for the the U.S. government being evil, well, being completely noble and righteous when in power... gets you taken out/over. No government (except made up ones) can survive without doing morally questionable things. After all, morally questionable things lead to Captain America. But that's not here or there. Though I am noticing an upward swing in "U.S.A. government BAD!!!" stories... anyway, I want to see how the Skrull thing plays out before I start cast a judgment.


I actually think the government probably was happy amount M day. It basially meant less mutants.


Well, the other governments probably felt a lot more concern for M-Day, since mutants leveled the superhuman playing field, with the U.S. now pretty much controls.

[XPac]

I think Atlantis would have ended up that way had Civil War happened or not. Wasn't Namor's son behind the whole thing? Civil War just gave the opportunity.



I'm seeing Skrulls here. No joke, I think they may (should) have had a hand in how things went down. As for the the U.S. government being evil, well, being completely noble and righteous when in power... gets you taken out/over. No government (except made up ones) can survive without doing morally questionable things. After all, morally questionable things lead to Captain America. But that's not here or there. Though I am noticing an upward swing in "U.S.A. government BAD!!!" stories... anyway, I want to see how the Skrull thing plays out before I start cast a judgment.

Well, the other governments probably felt a lot more concern for M-Day, since mutants leveled the superhuman playing field, with the U.S. now pretty much controls.

Though Namor's son was behind a lot of what we saw, it didn't occur in a void. It took place during a time when Atlantis and the US were already on the verge of war. Stark was attempting to incite public fear that a war was happening... he staged multiple assasiation attempt on Atlanteans. Namor actied sleepers. Had the events of War not occured, it's very possible things would have not escalated to the point they did. We've seen Atlanteans act aggressively before... the outcome was never this severe and a big part of the reaosn for that was because of the cold war climate that CW created. Because of what happened in CW, really almost anything could have triggered a war.

As for SIlent War... I'm not talking morally questionable behavior, I'm talking flat out attempted Genocide. In that context, you're whole rational about how the "completely rightous and noble get taken over" comes off a pretty shallow justification.

If the Skrulls are behind it, fine. We can blame them. But as of now, the US government has it's hands dirty. And unless everyone responsible for that that turns out to be a Skrull (from the person giving orders to Hill to the suicide bombers themselves), the US will have it's hands dirty even after Silent War.

But yes, there is an upswing in "US is bad" stories. But it's understandable if you start making real world parallels with 911.

[RolandJP]

i think there should have been more heroes leaving the US after the SHRA. Then I would have had secret US SHIELD rendition flights returning these fugitives--with a couple of flights near Wakanda.

[XPac]

i think there should have been more heroes leaving the US after the SHRA. Then I would have had secret US SHIELD rendition flights returning these fugitives--with a couple of flights near Wakanda.

I think a lot of the heroes leaving the country ended up making their way to Canada. Though Ben took off for France.

But yeah, if more heroes left to other places it might be a good context to tell more international stories.

[The Cool Thatguy]

I'm black and I do think Hudlin made a misstep on the Civil War issues based on being an American writer. Similar to how Slott wrote about the Superhero Civil War

1. Wakanda, I always envisioned, as having a social system MUCH more in keeping with the European model than the American model. Germany would be a good example in that not only does Wakanda have socialized medicine, but also the larger part Germany's government play in education.

Countries like Germany with a stronger socialized system REQUIRE the people to have more faith in the government. The reason why America would never have socialized healthcare _IS_ the boogeyman of government being involved.

2. I just don't see Panther NOT knowing the identity of all mutants/superhumans in his country. Its equivalent to Batman not knowing the secret identity of every costumer clown in HIS city. That said, it is hypocritical for Panther to be pissed that the US wants to know the identity of all superheroes in its borders.

T'challa certainly wouldn't tolerate it, why should the US?

My memory is a little spotty, but in fairness to Hudlin Mr. Fantastic basically said that to Storm, that what the U.S. was doing was pretty much what other governments, Wakanda included, have already done.

That said, there's nothing new or even wrong with slight double standards in politics. I can't imagine people have a problem keeping nuclear weapons out of the hands of dictators, even if the United States had a stock pile (to use and extreme example. Suck it, Millar).

A balance of power is a good thing, and I would think T'Challa would object to the registration act because it utterly destroys said balance. In the build up to it in Hudlin's series, I really think Hudlin had a good idea (terrible execution, mind). It's just the follow up...

[XPac]

Storm specifically had legit issues with the US government over the registration. They actually demanded that she register.... which was ridiculous for several reasons. For one thing, she had diplomatic immunity. For another, she was a mutant already registered after M Day. For the president not to see her without registering was pretty stupid, since she didn't need to for multiple reasons.

That was almost going out of your way to diss BP and his wife.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Storm specifically had legit issues with the US government over the registration. They actually demanded that she register.... which was ridiculous for several reasons. For one thing, she had diplomatic immunity. For another, she was a mutant already registered after M Day. For the president not to see her without registering was pretty stupid, since she didn't need to for multiple reasons.

That was almost going out of your way to diss BP and his wife.

I suspect that if you remove the 'almost', you'd be right.

Under Hudlin, the U.S. government isn't written too well, shall we say? ;)

[XPac]

I suspect that if you remove the 'almost', you'd be right.

Under Hudlin, the U.S. government isn't written too well, shall we say? ;)

It's not like Hudlin is alone in writing the US government in a somewhat unflattering manner during Civil War. So that's one I'm not going to hang on Hudlin. That's just going with the flow.

[AllisterH]

Storm specifically had legit issues with the US government over the registration. They actually demanded that she register.... which was ridiculous for several reasons. For one thing, she had diplomatic immunity. For another, she was a mutant already registered after M Day. For the president not to see her without registering was pretty stupid, since she didn't need to for multiple reasons.

That was almost going out of your way to diss BP and his wife.

True

That said, I'm not sure why she deserves an interview with the president. Even the prime minister of Russia can't simply call up the president and demand an interview without significant prep time.

There's also the fact that BP was covertly helping the anti-side which IMO, was just asking for WAR. Keep in mind, on the security council, China and Russia would probably vote with the US since both are BIG on the "don't involve yourselves with internal problems".

You know, I wonder if Wakanda is in the UN or is it like how Switzerland basically was an observer nation until the mid 90s. It makes sense given the isolation nature of the country.

There's another interesting facet that doesn't get mentioned. If America is defeated and is no longer top-dog, wouldnt the villain direct their attention to Wakanda?

US is the lightning rod for invasions. take over the world plots etc and that's because America is top dog....

[The Cool Thatguy]

It's not like Hudlin is alone in writing the US government in a somewhat unflattering manner during Civil War. So that's one I'm not going to hang on Hudlin. That's just going with the flow.

Well, Hudlin was heavy handed with his depiction long before Civil War. But surprisingly, he was among the few who almost seemed fair.

[XPac]

True

That said, I'm not sure why she deserves an interview with the president. Even the prime minister of Russia can't simply call up the president and demand an interview without significant prep time.

There's also the fact that BP was covertly helping the anti-side which IMO, was just asking for WAR. Keep in mind, on the security council, China and Russia would probably vote with the US since both are BIG on the "don't involve yourselves with internal problems".

You know, I wonder if Wakanda is in the UN or is it like how Switzerland basically was an observer nation until the mid 90s. It makes sense given the isolation nature of the country.

There's another interesting facet that doesn't get mentioned. If America is defeated and is no longer top-dog, wouldnt the villain direct their attention to Wakanda?

US is the lightning rod for invasions. take over the world plots etc and that's because America is top dog....

BP didn't begin helping Caps side until after the President dissed his wife and those Sentinals picked a fight with him. Though Storm at least had issues with the SHRA prior to all this, it's very possible BP might not have been as eager to help Caps side had the President and his Sentinals not left such a bad impression.

[akumasan]

I think a lot of the heroes leaving the country ended up making their way to Canada. Though Ben took off for France.

But yeah, if more heroes left to other places it might be a good context to tell more international stories.
I agree and by having minis or arcs discussing going to another country. I strongly believe spiderman story would be better if he was on the run not this bnd crap!


Well, Hudlin was heavy handed with his depiction long before Civil War. But surprisingly, he was among the few who almost seemed fair.True but at the same time his writing about the US goverment isnt any different than opinions of this country for years.

[XPac]

I agree and by having minis or arcs discussing going to another country. I strongly believe spiderman story would be better if he was on the run not this bnd crap!

True but at the same time his writing about the US goverment isnt any different than opinions of this country for years.

The problem with Spiderman is that he can't really be on the run. NYC is one of the few cities on earth he can actuall web swing around... few cities have enough tall buildings for him to swing around for any real distance. He's stuck in NYC.

[akumasan]

The problem with Spiderman is that he can't really be on the run. NYC is one of the few cities on earth he can actuall web swing around... few cities have enough tall buildings for him to swing around for any real distance. He's stuck in NYC.

THAT WOULD MAKE IT INTERESTING STILL. WITH THAT NOW HE IS FORCED TO USE OTHER MEANS TO TAKE CARE OF CRIMINALS IN THE OTHER CITIES THAT HE RUNS TO. MATTER OF FACT MANY OF TELEPHONE POLES IS HIGH ENOUGH FOR HIM.

[The Cool Thatguy]

True but at the same time his writing about the US goverment isnt any different than opinions of this country for years.

True, but it doesn't make said opinions any less ignorant :P

[bluedmighty]

BP's reservations about the SHRA stemmed from the fact that the GOv. was forcing time honered veterans to "ride or get rode on".

It was also the slippery slope of Gov. sanctioned superheroes AKA The Super Powered Army of the U.S.A.

The initiative isn't about policing the states. At it's most daibolicle, it's THE super soldier bootcamp/cloning lab.

[The Cool Thatguy]

BP's reservations about the SHRA stemmed from the fact that the GOv. was forcing time honered veterans to "ride or get rode on".

It was also the slippery slope of Gov. sanctioned superheroes AKA The Super Powered Army of the U.S.A.

The initiative isn't about policing the states. At it's most daibolicle, it's THE super soldier bootcamp/cloning lab.

My memory's spotty, did they ever expressly state what T'Challa's issue was with the Registration Act beyond Foster's death and them trying to make Storm register?

[bluedmighty]

My memory's spotty, did they ever expressly state what T'Challa's issue was with the Registration Act beyond Foster's death and them trying to make Storm register?

I'll need to re-read to make sure I wasn't seeing between the lines.

But I beleive they did.

[AllisterH]

1. Anyone read the Black Knight entry for Captain Britain and M:I3. Looks like we might have some closure on that issue.

2. Here's an interesting question. Let's assume a democrat wins the US general elections and let's assume it is Obama. Anyone want to take bets on how less ofter the "government is evil" storylines are used? Most writers are liberal (only major writer I know that is Republican is Chuck Dixon. Everyone else pretty much leans definitely on the left) so their writing reflected their anger with Bush. With a democrat in office, do you think we'll see less?

[DaeJi]

2. Here's an interesting question. Let's assume a democrat wins the US general elections and let's assume it is Obama. Anyone want to take bets on how less ofter the "government is evil" storylines are used? Most writers are liberal (only major writer I know that is Republican is Chuck Dixon. Everyone else pretty much leans definitely on the left) so their writing reflected their anger with Bush. With a democrat in office, do you think we'll see less?

Well, if either Obama or Hillary wins the general election, there's going to a lot less "U.S. government is evil!" stories (though I wouldn't be surprized to see a few "U.S. government was evil before we came into office!" stories") simply because one is a woman and one is black. In terms of leadership will this matter at all? Hell no. But... that's the world we live in.

[Monty_Cristo]

Well, if either Obama or Hillary wins the general election, there's going to a lot less "U.S. government is evil!" stories (though I wouldn't be surprized to see a few "U.S. government was evil before we came into office!" stories") simply because one is a woman and one is black. In terms of leadership will this matter at all? Hell no. But... that's the world we live in.

aren't democrats for more government? that would make both candidates pro-registration.

[RolandJP]

aren't democrats for more government? that would make both candidates pro-registration.

Actually republicans are big gov't lovers.

Reagan, and the Bushes.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Actually republicans are big gov't lovers.

Reagan, and the Bushes.

No no no, it's the party that's out of power that's in favor of small government. When they're in control, they suddenly find themselves in love with a bloated government :D

[princesa]

I finally got to see this issue first off I loved the art, it was a huge improvement on the usual artist and they should keep him. Second I liked the story it had a nice flow and feel to it.

[jackolover]

King Solomon really should get his own book. Those frogs, the Wisdom of Solomon; the magic and treasures that Solomon accumulated. How did this happen?

But that's getting away from all this.

Wakanda has been planning world domination the whole time? They have been a thorn in the side of the Western world for ever? Where did this all come from? If the Western World wanted to overrun Wakanda they could do it in a minute. Who do they think they are, anyway?

But aside from the sarcasm, that would be an incredible world war. I don't know if Marvel are going to do something like that, and wreck the redemption of Tony Stark, because really, Marvel wouldn't. Stark is Marvels poster boy, and nothing would convince them to hang him out in the sun, like that. Tony goes by the rules, and so Tony doesn't get bullets in the stomach, like some idealists we know. End of story.

But isn't it strange, that Hulk and Thor would partake in this fanciful World War against Wakanda? Why would Hudlin include the Hulk and Thor in something like that, when it appears only the Stark Brigade eventually were defeated? Maybe the other heroes stepped aside for the Wakanda assalt, and Stark was on his own. Doesn't matter, because it wouldn't happen. Besides, Stark wouldn't do it that way, anyway. He would use Nukes, or some Negative Zone teleporter to wipe Wakanda off the map.

[jackolover]

double post

[Umbra]

King Solomon really should get his own book. Those frogs, the Wisdom of Solomon; the magic and treasures that Solomon accumulated. How did this happen?

But that's getting away from all this.

Wakanda has been planning world domination the whole time? They have been a thorn in the side of the Western world for ever? Where did this all come from? If the Western World wanted to overrun Wakanda they could do it in a minute. Who do they think they are, anyway?

But aside from the sarcasm, that would be an incredible world war. I don't know if Marvel are going to do something like that, and wreck the redemption of Tony Stark, because really, Marvel wouldn't. Stark is Marvels poster boy, and nothing would convince them to hang him out in the sun, like that. Tony goes by the rules, and so Tony doesn't get bullets in the stomach, like some idealists we know. End of story.

But isn't it strange, that Hulk and Thor would partake in this fanciful World War against Wakanda? Why would Hudlin include the Hulk and Thor in something like that, when it appears only the Stark Brigade eventually were defeated? Maybe the other heroes stepped aside for the Wakanda assalt, and Stark was on his own. Doesn't matter, because it wouldn't happen. Besides, Stark wouldn't do it that way, anyway. He would use Nukes, or some Negative Zone teleporter to wipe Wakanda off the map.


Did you read the comic? Nor Hulk or Thor attacked Wakanda in the comic!!!!

[jackolover]

Did you read the comic? Nor Hulk or Thor attacked Wakanda in the comic!!!!

They were in the scene in the flashback, that attacked Doom and killed him, so they were a part of the super-human army, even if they didn't attack Wakanda.

[GalactaSurfer]

King Solomon really should get his own book. Those frogs, the Wisdom of Solomon; the magic and treasures that Solomon accumulated. How did this happen?

But that's getting away from all this.

Wakanda has been planning world domination the whole time? They have been a thorn in the side of the Western world for ever? Where did this all come from? If the Western World wanted to overrun Wakanda they could do it in a minute. Who do they think they are, anyway?

But aside from the sarcasm, that would be an incredible world war. I don't know if Marvel are going to do something like that, and wreck the redemption of Tony Stark, because really, Marvel wouldn't. Stark is Marvels poster boy, and nothing would convince them to hang him out in the sun, like that. Tony goes by the rules, and so Tony doesn't get bullets in the stomach, like some idealists we know. End of story.

But isn't it strange, that Hulk and Thor would partake in this fanciful World War against Wakanda? Why would Hudlin include the Hulk and Thor in something like that, when it appears only the Stark Brigade eventually were defeated? Maybe the other heroes stepped aside for the Wakanda assalt, and Stark was on his own. Doesn't matter, because it wouldn't happen. Besides, Stark wouldn't do it that way, anyway. He would use Nukes, or some Negative Zone teleporter to wipe Wakanda off the map.

I just read through the comic and the way i read that scene was in the context of a young man recounting some history which he didnt take part in hmself (most likey cause he was too young) so what do sons do when they recount their fathers great battles.. they exaggerate.. their imagination sees things that wasnt a part of the story........... either that or the Artist felt like stuffing the comic with random known superheros :cool:

[RolandJP]

I just read through the comic and the way i read that scene was in the context of a young man recounting some history which he didnt take part in hmself (most likey cause he was too young) so what do sons do when they recount their fathers great battles.. they exaggerate.. their imagination sees things that wasnt a part of the story........... either that or the Artist felt like stuffing the comic with random known superheros :cool:


Im gonna go with that theory. Hey, It worked for frank miller's 300

[Daouda]

They were in the scene in the flashback, that attacked Doom and killed him, so they were a part of the super-human army, even if they didn't attack Wakanda.

But you didin't say that. You said...



But isn't it strange, that Hulk and Thor would partake in this fanciful World War against Wakanda? Why would Hudlin include the Hulk and Thor in something like that, when it appears only the Stark Brigade eventually were defeated?

In the actual comic, only Iron Men attacked Wakanda. Probably because the other American heroes knew it was wrong and/or didn't want to get humiliated.:evilsmile:

As for the actual scene showing he attack on Doom, it's not much different than what has recently happened in Mighty Avengers. That's right, Doom, the leader of a sovereign nation, is in a jail cell somewhere. BP better watch his back.

While Thor and Silver Surfer, as currently written, are unlikely to aid the US, anything could happen in the future.

Then there is this...

I just read through the comic and the way i read that scene was in the context of a young man recounting some history which he didnt take part in hmself (most likey cause he was too young) so what do sons do when they recount their fathers great battles.. they exaggerate.. their imagination sees things that wasnt a part of the story........... either that or the Artist felt like stuffing the comic with random known superheros :cool:

I find the more I think about Hudlin's stories, the more I like them.:smile:


Excelsior!

Daoud

[SquidSquod]

As for the actual scene showing he attack on Doom, it's not much different than what has recently happened in Mighty Avengers. That's right, Doom, the leader of a sovereign nation, is in a jail cell somewhere. BP better watch his back.


Much paranoid are we.

As long as Wakanda doesn't antagonize the US (which will never be), Wakanda is fine.

[Daouda]

Much paranoid are we.

As long as Wakanda doesn't antagonize the US (which will never be), Wakanda is fine.

Squid, From refusing to allow flyzones over their country, to interfering in the Civil War, to bringing down the economy in the last series; throughout this series and the last, the U.S. government has been wary, offended and antagonized by Wakanda.

The last we heard, the US Navy was performing military exersices near Wakanda. Not to mentioned the rejection of military "assistance" earlier in the series. A scene that was hot as hell!:biggrin:

Yeah, I think, Wakanda better watch out.

But don't worry, it's under control.

The Black Panther can handle it.:evilsmile:


Excelsior!

Daoud

[SquidSquod]

But the US doesn't get mad on Wakanda since it's still thought to be acceptable than dropping Venom virus.

And Tony Stark (yeah, of all people) has agreed to help T'Challa by sending Photon. There's no grudge held by the Americans.

[jackolover]

I just read through the comic and the way i read that scene was in the context of a young man recounting some history which he didnt take part in hmself (most likey cause he was too young) so what do sons do when they recount their fathers great battles.. they exaggerate.. their imagination sees things that wasnt a part of the story........... either that or the Artist felt like stuffing the comic with random known superheros :cool:

I read it as the frogs story from 1500BC, recounting a future story (I know, a contradiction), of a possible timeline. I don't know how you could get that it was the boys interpretation of what happened, (when Stark was defeated by his father), but you could be right about the random stuffing part.

But what was the point of the story? Was it about the Panther children? The wedding? The foretelling of another major event that will soon occur in the MU? If none of what happens in this comes to pass, then it seems pointless. An exercise in fantasy. Maybe the frogs have some reason for showing this, that will appear in another story arc.

[Umbra]

But you didin't say that. You said...



In the actual comic, only Iron Men attacked Wakanda. Probably because the other American heroes knew it was wrong and/or didn't want to get humiliated.:evilsmile:

As for the actual scene showing he attack on Doom, it's not much different than what has recently happened in Mighty Avengers. That's right, Doom, the leader of a sovereign nation, is in a jail cell somewhere. BP better watch his back.

While Thor and Silver Surfer, as currently written, are unlikely to aid the US, anything could happen in the future.

Then there is this...


I find the more I think about Hudlin's stories, the more I like them.:smile:


Excelsior!

Daoud

Exactly...

[RolandJP]

No no no, it's the party that's out of power that's in favor of small government. When they're in control, they suddenly find themselves in love with a bloated government :D

No Its the Republican Mantra, Dems never promise less gov't, only pubs.

[GalactaSurfer]

I found a video that i think relates nicely to the Annual specificaly the part about Wakanda and its actions during the slave trade. When you get a chance check it out Here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvpEyl0lhf8)