Preacher: A Discussion

[Alive-And-Dreaming]

Wow. I'm reading the story for the first time, and I just finished it last night. Wow. The whole thing was such a trip. I thought the end was kind of cheap, but I guess it works because its a real Deus Ex Machina. Spoilers:The ending, where SOK kills god and sits in his throne was the most bad-ass thing in the history of comics. Does anyone else feel the way Jesse felt with Cass? I tried to deny what he was doing over and over again, or hoping against hope that he would in some way redeem himself, because I loved his character before.

[noh-varr]

I didn't think the ending fit Dues Ex Machina that much except you know literally as God did put the actions into place. Nothing felt forced to me. And I agree the final time we see the Saint is one of the most bad ass things ever printed.

I also believe Jesse forgave Cassidy at the end. He was his best friend and very much a complete bastard, but he still cared for him enough to try to save him. I hope Cassidy does well to earn his umpteenth chance (he was well beyond second at that point). And you can not go wrong with Jesse and Tulip riding off into the sunset, perfect American movie ending.

[stealthwise]

I know that quite a few people criticize the happy ending of the series, but it seems to fit very well, and I don't know what would be achieved by having them all die. The impact upon the world is that humanity is now free from the machinations and manipulations of a sad, lonely pathetic creator, and although it might not make a huge difference in the long run, at least the main characters are able to live their lives freely in knowing that there are no more outside influences upon them.

Tulip's murder and subsequent resurrection is one of the most cruel and casual violations of human life that I've seen in any form of art, and it's something that I'm glad Ennis touched upon without beating the reader over the head with it. That moment really highlights why God was such a bastard though. The fact that he would bring them all back again, presumably for shits and giggles, also emphasizes that he treated human beings as his playtoys, without any real regard for them at all. His need to be loved and desired was truly his downfall.

[jesse_custer]

The ending, although not exactly shocking or anything, was very fitting. It's one of the only stories in which every plotline was wrapped up in a logical, understandable way.

The fight scene between Cass and Jesse was really hard to read. It's funny really. People label this series as juvenile fun but it has more emotional resonance than people would like to admit.

[howyadoin]

I know that quite a few people criticize the happy ending of the series, but it seems to fit very well, and I don't know what would be achieved by having them all die.
The ending, although not exactly shocking or anything, was very fitting.I'm with you guys. I've heard a lot of criticism of it over the years - especially right after the final issue came out - but when I reread the entire series a few months back, the ending made perfect sense and flowed very naturally.

[stealthwise]

I'm with you guys. I've heard a lot of criticism of it over the years - especially right after the final issue came out - but when I reread the entire series a few months back, the ending made perfect sense and flowed very naturally.

I already kind of mentioned this above, but a lot of criticism that I read at the time (and afterwards) was that bringing back Tulip from death was a "cop-out" in the way that it would be if, say, Jean Grey were to come back for the 100th time. I didn't see it that way though, as God merely became a more petty, villainous character through his actions. And that was pretty scary too, knowing that he could influence things that deeply; he wasn't completely omnipotent, but could remove the Word at any time, and kill and bring back the characters as much as he wanted to. Scary stuff.

[JayC]

I agree that bringing back Tulip was a little lame... I was really sad to have her die, but maybe it would have been better that way...

That said, Preacher is by far my favorite book, still, simply amazing.

[spider kovacs]

just perfect...flawless book...great, fun, emotional series. was anyone else unbelievably furious at the reveal of cassidy as a friend betraying asshole? i was geniounley pissed off at him. i think i enjoyed volume 1 the most... then probably salvation. i HATED joesy and cletus was it?

[Alive-And-Dreaming]

Jodie And T.C. I didn't believe it at first. like, I wanted so hard for there to be something that redeems him in the end. Cass was such a great char.

[Chiasm]

My favorite comic series of all time. Speaking of which its about time to change back to one of my old avatars.

I liked the ending and felt very satisfied by it. Unlike a certain other Vertigo series that just ended *cough* Y: The Last Man *cough*.

[Jimmy Starburst]

Preacher was the bomb. But Julian Darrius from the The Continuity Pages (http://sequart.com/preacher.htm) raises an interestingt point:

Preacher, published by DC's Vertigo imprint, was very successful, filling the void left by the end of The Sandman. It was very violent and very funny. It was also, at times, quite trite.

Though Preacher included many memorable and clever moments, its hero was mostly repugnant. While valuing tolerance and friendship, Jesse Custer was also a Marlboro-smoking Texan and a deep misogynist. Twice over he lied to his girlfriend, Tulip, because he felt the urge to defend her and keep her from harm. While we might sympathize with his envisioning her death, we may also see that he believed hitting a woman the worst thing a man could do. Ennis seems to agree: he has Cassiday, who has hit women, agree with this ridiculous and sexist belief, stating that "out've fuckin' nowher yeh remember" hitting a woman "an' yeh remember yeh're fuckin' damned!" (Preacher #64). Of course, both of these men, as well as Tulip, are mass murderers. A man can be shot, or psychologically tortured, and we laugh, but a woman hit makes us and these murderers cringe. The same reaction can be observed in dogs: if you want to make readers hate a character, you make him hurt a dog. Women are thus rendered animals in this dime store philsophy, but men are treated as disposable, their deaths or torture irrelevant; women are thus also treated as queens, never to be subjected to the horrors of the world. There is a complex social message here, though Ennis does not seem to see it. So much for the patriarchy.

What else but the utter disposability of men in our culture, particularly in "macho" culture, can be seen in two men beating each other senseless over one of them slapping a woman? This same unconscious irony can be seen in Jesse's protection of Tulip despite her ability to fight and shoot better than most men -- or any human in real life. Moreover, the blaming of Cassidy for his keeping Tulip drunk is utterly mindless: it is never suggested that Cassidy raped her, and all characters treat the whole episode as entirely consentual on Tulip's part. Yet everyone, including Cassidy himself, blames Cassidy for making alchohol available to Tulip. Tulip's own reaction is so vehement that she scowls and points a gun at Cassidy when she next sees him (in Preacher #58). Yet, while Cassidy's behavior may be manipulative, the condemnation of this behavior treats Tulip as helpless. Tulip seems to agree with this, smacking of a feminist who wishes to be treated a capable and yet also as helpless -- to have all the opportunities to do what she wants, even that which is risky (such as sex and fighting), while still being treated as sympathetic and in need of special protection or consideration when she regrets her own behavior or that someone beat her in her risky endevours, including drinking and relationships. If Tulip attacked a man, brandishing a gun, and that man hit her in self-defense, who could blame him? If you're going to act like you have a dick, you have to take it like you do -- a simple logical fact Ennis does not seem to understand (though he's hardly alone).

[carabas]

Just three things:
-by the end of the story, Jesse realises that his macho bullshit is just that, and does away with it.
-there is a world of difference between just sexism (which is what Jesse is definitely guilty of, even though he tries not to) and misogyny.
-actions speak lmouder than words: no matter what beliefs Jesse may or may not hold, he'd have been dead many times over without Tulip. Ennis clearly does not portray Tulip, or any other woman in the book, as a helples damsel in distress.
Yet, while Cassidy's behavior may be manipulative, the condemnation of this behavior treats Tulip as helpless. Tulip seems to agree with this, smacking of a feminist who wishes to be treated a capable and yet also as helplessAnd this bit has nothing at all to do with gender differences and everything with addictions. Plus, since she broke free of her addiction, she was hardly helpless.

[dancj]

I already kind of mentioned this above, but a lot of criticism that I read at the time (and afterwards) was that bringing back Tulip from death was a "cop-out" in the way that it would be if, say, Jean Grey were to come back for the 100th time.
If you can't bring someone back to life in a story where one of the characters is God then I don't know when you can!

Oh and bringing Jean Grey back is her thing. Of all the characters who should be able to come back to life it has to be The Phoenix

[jesse_custer]

Jesse Custer is not repugnant in any sense, especially moral. Whoever wrote that piece is a moron who can't read very well.

[Forefinger]

I'm with you guys. I've heard a lot of criticism of it over the years - especially right after the final issue came out - but when I reread the entire series a few months back, the ending made perfect sense and flowed very naturally.

I thought that things ended well with Cass and Jesse dead, and that the aftermath felt kind of forced, but hey, I'm glad that the characters that we all liked (and even one that we learned to hate in Cass) got another chance at living happily ever after.

[howyadoin]

... he believed hitting a woman the worst thing a man could do.Wow, what an asshole Jesse is.

[howyadoin]

Jesse Custer is not repugnant in any sense, especially moral. Whoever wrote that piece is a moron who can't read very well.Personally, I don't trust anybody who can't spell "alcohol".

[will_butler]

Preacher was the bomb. But Julian Darrius from the The Continuity Pages (http://sequart.com/preacher.htm) raises an interestingt point:
...

I know it's already been covered by the others who've responded, but Julian Darrius really does have his head completely up his ass on this. I can't think of a more skewed, nonsensical, wrongheaded reading of the series and characters. And though it's a very minor point, how in the hell does smoking contribute to someone being morally repugnant?

Will

[filthysize]

Actually, Darrius' essay has a good point, and would have held ground if what he described was really the case. But it's completely invalid once you realize something that Darrius obviously overlooked:

The difference of reaction towards violent acts in Preacher wasn't divided by the sex of the victims, but by their moral actions. Cassidy's hitting of his girl was portrayed as demonic not because he hit a woman, but because he hit a defenseless innocent woman after he turned her into a drug addict, the same way he did to Tulip. Jesse always protected Tulip (which Ennis noted as Jesse's macho bullshit by way of his upbringing, so it's not even like he's condoning Jesse's actions for doing so) not because he felt Tulip was weak, but because she's his love interest. This idea that Ennis believes women should be protected doesn't add up. Ennis has no problem justifying hurting a woman when she's a complete right bitch (Jesse's gramma, for instance). When Jesse and Cassidy say hitting women is the worst of the worst, they don't mean it quite so literally.

Cassidy to me would always be one of the greatest comic book characters ever written. The way Ennis managed to make him so goddamn likable, and then turn him around into a scumbag in a very logical and in-character manner... it's one of the most honest depiction of the betrayal of friendship I've ever read. It's truly heartbreaking. The metaphor of him being a vampire is obvious, but I wondered what Ennis came up with first -- the idea of him being a vampire, or the plan to make him a betrayer and then thinking that a vampire character would fit the persona.

[JayC]

I have to wonder where Cassidy's own book is... probably set before Preacher's time... I think it'd be great.

[howyadoin]

I have to wonder where Cassidy's own book is...http://preacher.alwaysmad.com/preacher/images/cbw1.jpg

[Alive-And-Dreaming]

http://preacher.alwaysmad.com/preacher/images/cbw1.jpg

I think he was talking about a limited series, not a one shot. I have to agree, that would be cool.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

I think he was talking about a limited series, not a one shot. I have to agree, that would be cool.

I'm pretty happy with the series where it is.
I think anything else would detract rather than add to it.

From that ridiculous article:
Of course, both of these men, as well as Tulip, are mass murderers. A man can be shot, or psychologically tortured, and we laugh, but a woman hit makes us and these murderers cringe.

No one they kill is innocent by a long shot, and often the people were trying to kill them.

it is never suggested that Cassidy raped her, and all characters treat the whole episode as entirely consentual on Tulip's part. Yet everyone, including Cassidy himself, blames Cassidy for making alchohol available to Tulip.

Well, when Tulip first turned to him it was consensual - people do fuck after funerals.
Also, I've had sex with people I wished I hadn't after drinking, damn near everyone I know has, male or female - none of us refer to it as rape, or even date rape, because at the time we were all for it.
Rape refers to forcing someone into the action, against their will.
Date Rape refers to giving someone a substance which makes them incapable of a choice (by either getting them super doped out, or knocking them out).

After that, he was keeping alcohol around an alcoholic - remember, recovered alcoholics, those who have 'beat' it, refer to it as a disease always calling them back for more.
As is said in the book, he never forced it upon her, it was her choice (as much as a depressed addict has a choice), he just made sure her hits were always there waiting for her.

[howyadoin]

From that ridiculous article:
Of course, both of these men, as well as Tulip, are mass murderers. A man can be shot, or psychologically tortured, and we laugh, but a woman hit makes us and these murderers cringe.I have to admit I'm a wee bit surprised at this idea that punching a woman in the face is proof you're a feminist.

[LewMoxinsghost]

I'm with you guys. I've heard a lot of criticism of it over the years - especially right after the final issue came out - but when I reread the entire series a few months back, the ending made perfect sense and flowed very naturally.

I loved this series quite a bit... especially the take it had on the American South. The ending to me at first didn't work either - it seemed not quite true to character until I experienced the ghost in the machine effects. What I got out of it was that we were dealing with a character that could not be effectively captured in the medium- that the symbol and manifestation of it could die, but the reality was that God the Holy Ghost was the sum total of the experience as well as just the symbol. Even if the symbol dies, we were left with the experience. Nice writing. Reminiscing makes me want to pick it up again.