Elektra: Anti hero or Villain

[The Master Meglomaniac]

There are still some things about this character I don't get. Why did she become an assassin? Her father was killed by terrorists, shouldn't she go around and kill terrorists instead of being an assassin? Some may say the Hand warped her when she tried to go undercover in that organization, but she left that organization and became a free agent, so it seems they are not entirely to blame.

Also what make her dfferent from any other assassin out there? She kills people for money and her willinginess to take a job to kill Foggy shows that includes innocent people. I don't see how she is an anti hero, she just seems like another selfish, immoral criminal who puts her desires above other people. That makes her seem like a villain, pure and simple. Sure she may feel bad for actions, but so what? Many villains have regretted their actions, it doesn't mean that they are not villains. I haven't heard of an anti hero who kills innocent people for their own benefit.

[StoneGold]

Skrull?

.

[Fatguy]

I prefer my Elektra stabbed in the chest by individuals in blue tights.

[Chino]

whos knows, shes a confusing and complex charatcer, like most women :rolleyes: and I guess thats why I love her lol.

I think shes more of a villain, but her ninja/samurai (?) ways give her a kind of moral code I guess...hell I dunno lol.
Im just posting because I like the character so much. I hope they dont screw her story all up with this skrull stuff. I trust Brubaker, Bendis and co...not so much :(

[niall mc cann]

Bearing in mind that Elektra's history is confusing and there are many threads to her story that have dubious canonicity, my answers to your questions go something like:

There are still some things about this character I don't get. Why did she become an assassin? Her father was killed by terrorists, shouldn't she go around and kill terrorists instead of being an assassin?

She didn't go out and just become an assassin. She trained long and hard with Stick (who most people would concede, despite his demeanor, is a good guy). She loved her mentor, excelled at her training, and was well on the way to becoming an enormous force for good in the world, but was rejected by Stick, who apparently sensed some kind of darkness or danger in her. This most probably was a result of her inability to reconcile her feelings for her father, who she loved more than the whole world, but who had sexually abused her as a child.

It was the rejection by Stick that drove her into The Hand organisation, though I tend to assume that the rejection was calculated (on Stick's part) to try and make her face the scars and pain she carried from her relationship with her father; Elektra just wasn't strong enough to do that - she crumbled, and gladly accepted the welcome of the only organisation that seemed to want or respect her, The Hand. From that day on, she was an assassin. That's the world she lives in. It didn't matter to her that The Hand only wanted her for her formidable stealth and combat ability, just so long as they wanted her.

Some may say the Hand warped her when she tried to go undercover in that organization, but she left that organization and became a free agent, so it seems they are not entirely to blame.

While I would accept that The Hand probably tried to nurture her feelings of betrayal and self-loathing (the feelings that Stick tried to make her face and work through), and I would also accept that her time with them was difficult and psychologically traumatic, I also totally accept that she was most likely a little screwy even before getting involved with them.

what make her dfferent from any other assassin out there? She kills people for money and her willinginess to take a job to kill Foggy shows that includes innocent people. I don't see how she is an anti hero, she just seems like another selfish, immoral criminal who puts her desires above other people.

Her betrayal of The Hand makes her a marked woman - marked by one of the most powerful and malicious death-cults out there. It's important to remember that The Hand aren't just assassins; they're a screwy religion dedicated to eradicating life on Earth.

She betrayed them, and openly opposed them at times when the great death-beast they worship was moments from "cleansing" the earth. She didn't have to do that. She stuck her neck out a long way to ensure there's be a tomorrow for all of us, and that's a heroic thing to do. She could have picked up the phone and called Captain America (to my mind, even that action would be enough to allow her be labelled heroic, given the mind-control and brainwashing she would have had to overcome); but she didn't. She waded right in there and put her life on the line for everyone, and continues to oppose them to this day. She needn't do that. There's no benefit for her in it. But she does. And the world is safer for that.

I haven't heard of an anti hero who kills innocent people for their own benefit.

Well, to me, that's precisely what Elektra is.:o

[drwho]

I like Elektra just being mysterious and having mysterious motives neither heroic, or evil.

[Monty_Cristo]

There are still some things about this character I don't get. Why did she become an assassin? Her father was killed by terrorists, shouldn't she go around and kill terrorists instead of being an assassin? Some may say the Hand warped her when she tried to go undercover in that organization, but she left that organization and became a free agent, so it seems they are not entirely to blame.

Also what make her dfferent from any other assassin out there? She kills people for money and her willinginess to take a job to kill Foggy shows that includes innocent people. I don't see how she is an anti hero, she just seems like another selfish, immoral criminal who puts her desires above other people. That makes her seem like a villain, pure and simple. Sure she may feel bad for actions, but so what? Many villains have regretted their actions, it doesn't mean that they are not villains. I haven't heard of an anti hero who kills innocent people for their own benefit.


but she's hot. :confused:

[agrich]

Not to nitpick, but she didn't actually kill Foggy -- she took the assignment, then let him go. I don't know that this means she wouldn't kill innocents, but I'm not sure that she actually has.

It's possible to put your desires above other people without being a criminal. Lots of people do it. And of course, the definition of "criminal' has become kind of fuzzy under the SHRA, since a lot of "heroes" are certainly law-breakers.

I think she certainly pursues her own self-interests, with the result being that she sometimes does criminal things and sometimes helps out her friends. And of course, we don't know exactly when she was replaced by a Skrull.

[Monty_Cristo]

It's possible to put your desires above other people without being a criminall.

yes, i believe the term "deuche-hero" was created to describe these individuals. :D

[StoneGold]

yes, i believe the term "deuche-hero" was created to describe these individuals. :D

What do the Germans have to do with anything?

[Monty_Cristo]

What do the Germans have to do with anything?

there'd be no Captain America w/o them.

[Laughing Mask]

I prefer my Elektra stabbed in the chest by individuals in blue tights.

i agree.


cuz bullseye is the man.

[SeritoNiN]

If shes been a skrull since her return back in eighty-whothe****knows then I guess that's a downfall to the skrull storyline, you really can't put THAT much thought into a character thats been mis-leading you for 20 years or more.

[scouse mouse]

Complex anti-hero is how I think of her. She used her dark impulses to protect herself from the world around her and probably felt a certain amount of self loathing because of what she was doing. In her last ongoing she came to terms with what she is and accepted the darkness as part of her. Now she harnesses her darkness to help her do the right thing, usually through morally questionable methods.
Either that or she's been a stupid Skrull for as long as I have been reading her! In which case Marvel can eff off!

[The Master Meglomaniac]

Not to nitpick, but she didn't actually kill Foggy -- she took the assignment, then let him go. I don't know that this means she wouldn't kill innocents, but I'm not sure that she actually has. .

She didn't kill Foggy, but the only reason she spared Foggy is because he was Matt's friend, not because he was innocent. if she was willing to take a job to kill Foggy, doesn't it stand to reason she has killed innocent people for money before? How is she an anti hero when she is willing to kill innocent people for money?


It's possible to put your desires above other people without being a criminal. Lots of people do it. And of course, the definition of "criminal' has become kind of fuzzy under the SHRA, since a lot of "heroes" are certainly law-breakers.

I think she certainly pursues her own self-interests, with the result being that she sometimes does criminal things and sometimes helps out her friends. And of course, we don't know exactly when she was replaced by a Skrull.

How is killing people for money not criminal? Lots of vilains are just selfish rather than sadistic or evil (like Electro, Rhino, etc) are they not villains anymore? Heck, Shocker is more moral than Elektra, he just steals for living, he doesn't go around and kill people.

[agrich]

She didn't kill Foggy, but the only reason she spared Foggy is because he was Matt's friend, not because he was innocent. if she was willing to take a job to kill Foggy, doesn't it stand to reason she has killed innocent people for money before? How is she an anti hero when she is willing to kill innocent people for money?

First, I didn't say she was an anti-hero. Second, whatever it may "stand to reason" and whatever we can speculate she's willing to do, we cannot in fact say for certain that she has killed innocent people for money.


How is killing people for money not criminal? Lots of vilains are just selfish rather than sadistic or evil (like Electro, Rhino, etc) are they not villains anymore? Heck, Shocker is more moral than Elektra, he just steals for living, he doesn't go around and kill people.

I didn't say she wasn't a criminal, either. She is a criminal. But, lots of people are criminals these days, including all of the New Avengers, to name but a few. No, they don't kill people for money, so they're not as bad as Elektra. But you defined her as a criminal by "putting her desires above other people," and I'm just arguing that plenty of non-criminals do the same thing.

Anyway, I would agree she's more criminal than anti-hero, because I can't really think of many heroic things she's ever done. But merely being a criminal or even killing people for money doesn't mean I'd judge her as harshly as you would. I mean, where do you put Wolverine? He's killed people. Presumably he did so while working for the Canadian government, which makes him either a great Patriot (unlikely) or someone who killed for money.

[mgs]

I like Elektra just being mysterious and having mysterious motives neither heroic, or evil.

I agree. I know people like to categorize characters as such in the Marvel, superhero universe, but she's really neither. She's simply an assassin by profession, who sometimes does the right thing, sometimes not.

[niall mc cann]

How is she an anti hero when she is willing to kill innocent people for money?

:confused: But... that's what makes her an anti-hero. If she didn't kill people for money, then she'd just be a hero, since she'd only be bopping around the world, fighting evil ninjas.



How is killing people for money not criminal?

Now you're just shifting the goalposts. Killing people for any reason is criminal. You can be a criminal and an anti-hero. Hell, you can be a criminal and a hero.

You never at any point in your original post claimed that being a criminal automatically made you a villain.

Lots of vilains are just selfish rather than sadistic or evil (like Electro, Rhino, etc) are they not villains anymore? Heck, Shocker is more moral than Elektra, he just steals for living, he doesn't go around and kill people.

No, he's not.

Shocker's just out for himself. He's never put himself in harm's way to help somebody else, and he likely never will. As a human being, he's actually probably all right, and not that bad a guy; but he routinely puts people in danger for his own ends. Elektra, at least, is efficient - if you're not her target, you're most likely quite safe. You could probably be standing right next to the guy she's out to kill and never notice she's killed him until she's miles away...

Ultimately, this discussion is pointless if you don't define your terms; you don't say what an anti-hero is, so how can any of us know if Elektra fits your terms? An anti-hero is someone who takes on some or all of the traits identified with the the traditional role of the hero in a story (that is, engaging in a struggle to achieve a change in the world both within and beyond themselves, for motives beyond the purely self-serving) without displaying all the values or practices that a traditional hero would (for example, in the case of Elektra, she clearly doesn't hold life as sacred, or at least as an inalienable right). Judged against those terms, Elektra fits the bill. If you have different terms, fine, argue them. For example, "an anti-hero can't be a criminal". I don't accept those kinds of criteria, though. They're too parochial and blinkered.

[TheAmazingSpidey]

Elektra: Anti hero or Villain


I'm gonna go with "Sexy ninja bitch lady". :)

[Bryson the Red]

Anti-Villain.

[mgs]

Anti-Villain.

ha. that's pretty good. i like that. I think she could definitely be classified as such. it certainly captures her role more than an anti-hero or a villain. :)

[_Jayme_]

People are forgetting the whole..you know..skrull thing. We have no idea how long they have been here. My guess is that her body was taken over shortly after she became an assassain again.

I would still call her an anti-hero..She's willing to kill people, but for the right reasons when she isn't an assassain.

[The Master Meglomaniac]

:confused: But... that's what makes her an anti-hero. If she didn't kill people for money, then she'd just be a hero, since she'd only be bopping around the world, fighting evil ninjas.





Now you're just shifting the goalposts. Killing people for any reason is criminal. You can be a criminal and an anti-hero. Hell, you can be a criminal and a hero.

You never at any point in your original post claimed that being a criminal automatically made you a villain.



No, he's not.

Shocker's just out for himself. He's never put himself in harm's way to help somebody else, and he likely never will. As a human being, he's actually probably all right, and not that bad a guy; but he routinely puts people in danger for his own ends. Elektra, at least, is efficient - if you're not her target, you're most likely quite safe. You could probably be standing right next to the guy she's out to kill and never notice she's killed him until she's miles away...

Ultimately, this discussion is pointless if you don't define your terms; you don't say what an anti-hero is, so how can any of us know if Elektra fits your terms? An anti-hero is someone who takes on some or all of the traits identified with the the traditional role of the hero in a story (that is, engaging in a struggle to achieve a change in the world both within and beyond themselves, for motives beyond the purely self-serving) without displaying all the values or practices that a traditional hero would (for example, in the case of Elektra, she clearly doesn't hold life as sacred, or at least as an inalienable right). Judged against those terms, Elektra fits the bill. If you have different terms, fine, argue them. For example, "an anti-hero can't be a criminal". I don't accept those kinds of criteria, though. They're too parochial and blinkered.

I was replying to the fellow who said one can be selfish and criminal, you are taking that out of context.

An anti hero is someone who uses extreme or even immoral methods for a good end. Like Punisher trying to clean up the city by killing and torturing criminals. Punisher actions are criminal, but they are always trying to serve a greater purpose. Elektra was willing to take a job to kill an innocent man Foggy and only let him go because he was the friend of her ex boyfriend. If she was willing to take a job to kill Foggy, why wouldn't she kill other innocent people? The only reason she does anything good is because of her feeling for Matt, not because she believes in doing the right thing. She's just selfish witch who lets her libdo make the descisions sometimes.

First, I didn't say she was an anti-hero. Second, whatever it may "stand to reason" and whatever we can speculate she's willing to do, we cannot in fact say for certain that she has killed innocent people for money.



I didn't say she wasn't a criminal, either. She is a criminal. But, lots of people are criminals these days, including all of the New Avengers, to name but a few. No, they don't kill people for money, so they're not as bad as Elektra. But you defined her as a criminal by "putting her desires above other people," and I'm just arguing that plenty of non-criminals do the same thing.

Anyway, I would agree she's more criminal than anti-hero, because I can't really think of many heroic things she's ever done. But merely being a criminal or even killing people for money doesn't mean I'd judge her as harshly as you would. I mean, where do you put Wolverine? He's killed people. Presumably he did so while working for the Canadian government, which makes him either a great Patriot (unlikely) or someone who killed for money.

The difference Wolverine has served a higher purpose for most appearances in his title, while Elektra almost always serves herself (she only does good to save her own skin or because she wants jump Matt's bones.) It be different if after her return she only targeted evil people for assassination.

[Sijo]

Elektra was originally intended to be Daredevil's Catwoman: a sexy villainess that falls in love with the hero, and may have actually reformed for him... if she'd not been run thru with her own Sai, that is. She then became a victim of the "the fans like her, so let's give her a series and call her a hero" phenomenon (see Wolverine, Punisher.)

The Elektra series from the 90's had her actually ADDICTED to killing, so that she took contracts just so she would have people to kill! At that point, she was undebatably a villain. (Note that I haven't personally read that series, only reviews, so I do not know what the explanation for that was, or even if the series is canonical.)

The Punisher was an Anti-Hero once, but in recent years has been shown as sadistic, and killing criminals he didn't really need to just because he hated them. Though again, it's hard to tell what is canonical since his MAX adventures do not count.

My bet is that Bendis will establish Elektra as having been a Skrull since her ressurrection, which her creator (Miller) never liked in the first place, possibly brainwashed into thinking that she WAS Elektra. I know, that doesn't hold up, but this is "The Beyonder is a Mutant Inhuman" Bendis we're talking about.

[psm]

I think she is both. One is not exclusive to the other. It just depends on which story you are reading.

[niall mc cann]

An anti hero is someone who uses extreme or even immoral methods for a good end.

That's a pointlessly blinkered definition of an anti-hero, to me.

Take one of the most oft-cited anti-heroes in all literature - Catch 22's Yossarian. He's not an anti-hero by your definition. That's off the top of my head. There's loooooooooads of anti-heroes you're writing off into some storytelling no-mans-land with a definition like that.

Nevertheless, Elektra still fits even that inadequate definition, as she uses murder, black magic and mind control to oppose the horrific death-cult of The Hand.

The only reason she does anything good is because of her feeling for Matt, not because she believes in doing the right thing. She's just selfish witch who lets her libdo make the descisions sometimes.

That's not true. Read Elektra: Assassin, or Wolverine: Enemy of the State.

The difference Wolverine has served a higher purpose for most appearances in his title, while Elektra almost always serves herself (she only does good to save her own skin or because she wants jump Matt's bones.)

Again, not true. Read the titles I already mentioned.