View Full Version : Read this, and then tell me you don't believe in Capitol Punishment
Shellhead
02-26-2008, 07:22 PM
The rules of the forum prevent me from expressing just how disgusting you are.
If the supposedly "good people" in America think this way, is it any wonder we are becoming a nation of thugs?
Why, is there a rule against drama queen posturing? And if we are becoming a nation of thugs, what is your plan? Free room and board for every thug?
Well, I'm going with the psych definition, which is all about operant conditioning. And almost all discipline and punishment simply does not work; in fact, almost all discipline and punishment is bound to backfire.
That quick bite, btw, wasn't punishment at all because you're basic meaning is "inflict a penalty on, cause pain for some offense" -- and that's not what Mom was doing -- she was showing the kid what it felt like to be bitten while she still had the idea in mind of doing some biting. That's not a penalty, and that's not causing pain for some offense; that's just short-circuiting a learning process.
Kid turned out to get Theory of Mind real early in life, too.
Oh my God.
Paul I would never have thought it of you.
You think that children are nice! :eek:
What about the mean little bastards who already knew that biting someone would hurt?
Joe Franklin
02-26-2008, 07:35 PM
Some people don't consider a fetus as the same thing as a person with all of the same rights. Such as the federal government.
The federal government founding fathers and authors/signers of the constitution and bill of rights considered a fetus as a human being with civil rights. It was illegal to kill babies in the USA until 1973.
mattx110
02-26-2008, 07:36 PM
The federal government founding fathers and authors/signers of the constitution and bill of rights considered a fetus as a human being with civil rights. It was illegal to kill babies in the USA until 1973.
I find 18th century medical science very useful in my daily life too.
Pass me the leeches and mallet please.
The federal government founding fathers and authors/signers of the constitution and bill of rights considered a fetus as a human being with civil rights. It was illegal to kill babies in the USA until 1973.
You're breaking my heart and making me cry here Joe.
Let's get this straight, you're talking to grown-ups here who have all sorts of views about abortion rights, both pro and con.
But what we all have in common is that we do our very best to avoid clichés and talking points.
You should try it.
The federal government founding fathers and authors/signers of the constitution and bill of rights considered a fetus as a human being with civil rights. It was illegal to kill babies in the USA until 1973.
And by the way, several of those very same founders were perfectly supportive of killing babies.
It's why there weren't that many crippled or blind slave children in the South.
Shellhead
02-26-2008, 07:41 PM
The federal government founding fathers and authors/signers of the constitution and bill of rights considered a fetus as a human being with civil rights. It was illegal to kill babies in the USA until 1973.
It's still illegal to kill babies in the USA. Babies are not fetuses, and fetuses are not babies. But you knew that.
Valmore
02-26-2008, 07:44 PM
Are you pro-choice/abortion or pro-life? This determines if your anti-government sponsored killing argument is valid. So which is it friend? Can't have it both ways if you are pro-choice/abortion and anti-death penalty it's illogical. If you are pro-life and anti-death penalty, then you have a valid argument, because you hate all forms of the government sponsored killing of people.
There's quite a difference between abortion and capital punishment. Abortion is stopping a life from ever having the chance to be up for capital punishment. Capital punishment is for criminals who probably should have been aborted.
I can play the cliche game, too!
HOORAY!
Gilda Dent
02-26-2008, 07:53 PM
Oh my God.
Paul I would never have thought it of you.
You think that children are nice! :eek:
What about the mean little bastards who already knew that biting someone would hurt?
Yeah, I've spent my adult life dealing with kids. I have three of various ages in my home. You have to use disincentives of some sort. Sending a child to his or her room, as rick refers to above, is the type of punishment most commonly suggested, a time out.
In a lab, sure, ignore undesirable behaviors and reinforce desirable ones. In the rearing of kids, you have to add in extinguishing those undesirable behaviors.
Discipline involves both positive and negative aspects, and it's a mistake to leave out either the rewards (authoritarian) or the punishments (indulgent/permissive).
Joe Franklin
02-26-2008, 08:15 PM
It's still illegal to kill babies in the USA. Babies are not fetuses, and fetuses are not babies. But you knew that.
Not true. If I kill a woman with a fetus in her womb, the law tries me for a double homicide. So a fetus under law is a baby if I kill it, but not if a doctor kills it in his clinic. You can only kill a fetus under the law if you are an abortion doctor. So, a fetus is alive and human if I kill it, but it is not alive and human if a doctor kills it? This is an illogical law.
mattx110
02-26-2008, 08:20 PM
Not true. If I kill a woman with a fetus in her womb, the law tries me for a double homicide. So a fetus under law is a baby if I kill it, but not if a doctor kills it in his clinic. You can only kill a fetus under the law if you are an abortion doctor. So, a fetus is alive and human if I kill it, but it is not alive and human if a doctor kills it? This is an illogical law.
Or trying it as a double homicide is flawed...
And only pregnant women in later stages of pregnancy should be counted as double homicide. But since killing a pregnant woman is such a disgusting crime, we don't mind adding that additional murder charge despite being pinko liberal pussies.
Pól Rua
02-26-2008, 08:20 PM
Are you pro-choice/abortion or pro-life? This determines if your anti-government sponsored killing argument is valid. So which is it friend? Can't have it both ways if you are pro-choice/abortion and anti-death penalty it's illogical. If you are pro-life and anti-death penalty, then you have a valid argument, because you hate all forms of the government sponsored killing of people.
I nominate this for the best thread ever.
While we're at it - Illegal Immigration, Welfare, Government-sponsored Health Care, Affirmative Action, The War in Iraq, Israel, Joe Quesada retconning Spider-Man's marriage.
Sorry, I thought we were playing "Who Can Introduce The More Irrelevant Talking Point Which Has Little Or Nothing To Do With It Into The Discussion".
I'll take "Topics That Dredge Up The Same Tired Bullshit Arguments From The Same People" for $200.
BA-ZOO-KA!
Ben Morgan
02-26-2008, 08:21 PM
BAZOOKA!!!!!!!!
Loren
02-26-2008, 08:23 PM
Cool, glad to hear it.
Still I don't think that an execution has been held publicly in the US in at least 80 or 90 years.
Close. From NPR (http://www.npr.org/programs/morning/features/2001/apr/010430.execution.html):
"The last [public execution] was carried out in Owensboro, Kentucky, in 1936 when Rainey Bethea was hanged after his conviction for the rape and murder of a 70-year-old woman."
Joe Franklin
02-26-2008, 08:26 PM
Or trying it as a double homicide is flawed...
Or another illogical flaw. I get tried for murder if I perform an abortion because I don't have a medical license, instead of just simple a simple malpractice charge. So if a fetus is not a live baby according to the law, why the murder charge on me for practicing medicine? See how illogical the abortion laws are? It's either a baby, or it's not a baby, no matter who performs the abortion if common sense is applied.
I nominate this for the best thread ever.
While we're at it - Illegal Immigration, Welfare, Government-sponsored Health Care, Affirmative Action, The War in Iraq, Israel, Joe Quesada retconning Spider-Man's marriage.
Sorry, I thought we were playing "Who Can Introduce The More Irrelevant Talking Point Which Has Little Or Nothing To Do With It Into The Discussion".
I'll take "Topics That Dredge Up The Same Tired Bullshit Arguments From The Same People" for $200.
BA-ZOO-KA!
you forgot reparations for descendants of slaves in the US.
Joe Franklin
02-26-2008, 08:28 PM
Close. From NPR (http://www.npr.org/programs/morning/features/2001/apr/010430.execution.html):
"The last [public execution] was carried out in Owensboro, Kentucky, in 1936 when Rainey Bethea was hanged after his conviction for the rape and murder of a 70-year-old woman."
:eek:
How dare they do this. What this man did was not that bad at all. He deserves to live out the rest of his life being fed well, getting an education, watching tv on his break time, surfing the web, and having shelter from the elements at the tax payers expense. This is real justice afterall.
Gilda Dent
02-26-2008, 08:29 PM
I nominate this for the best thread ever.
While we're at it - Illegal Immigration, Welfare, Government-sponsored Health Care, Affirmative Action, The War in Iraq, Israel, Joe Quesada retconning Spider-Man's marriage.
Sorry, I thought we were playing "Who Can Introduce The More Irrelevant Talking Point Which Has Little Or Nothing To Do With It Into The Discussion".
I'll take "Topics That Dredge Up The Same Tired Bullshit Arguments From The Same People" for $200.
BA-ZOO-KA!
Gay marriage and adoption. I wanna tie those into the discussion. Oh, and reparations for Native Americans. Affirmative action.
All directly related to capital punishment because they involve the government in some way.
Joe Franklin
02-26-2008, 08:33 PM
Gay marriage and adoption. I wanna tie those into the discussion. Oh, and reparations for Native Americans. Affirmative action.
All directly related to capital punishment because they involve the government in some way.
Except the fact that they don't involve the government executing people with tax payers money.;)
Close. From NPR (http://www.npr.org/programs/morning/features/2001/apr/010430.execution.html):
"The last [public execution] was carried out in Owensboro, Kentucky, in 1936 when Rainey Bethea was hanged after his conviction for the rape and murder of a 70-year-old woman."
Okay, that actually sounds about right.
Thanks.
Or another illogical flaw. I get tried for murder if I perform an abortion because I don't have a medical license, instead of just simple a simple malpractice charge. So if a fetus is not a live baby according to the law, why the murder charge on me for practicing medicine? See how illogical the abortion laws are? It's either a baby, or it's not a baby, no matter who performs the abortion if common sense is applied.
Can you give an example since 1973 of that actually happening?
Aaron Kashtan
02-26-2008, 08:36 PM
:eek:
How dare they do this. What this man did was not that bad at all. He deserves to live out the rest of his life being fed well, getting an education, watching tv on his break time, surfing the web, and having shelter from the elements at the tax payers expense. This is real justice afterall.
If life in prison is so great and all, then why don't you commit a crime and get sentenced to life in prison? If prison was as great as you say it is, then everyone would want to go there.
Gordon Smith
02-26-2008, 08:37 PM
Close. From NPR (http://www.npr.org/programs/morning/features/2001/apr/010430.execution.html):
"The last [public execution] was carried out in Owensboro, Kentucky, in 1936 when Rainey Bethea was hanged after his conviction for the rape and murder of a 70-year-old woman."
Yeah, the Rainey Bethea hanging was the last execution in the United States in which public attendance was totally unregulated. There were a number of executions afterwards which were witnessed by a fair number of people (several hundred or so) who managed to gain admittance to supposedly closed proceedings, but no unregulated ones that I'm aware of.
Pól Rua
02-26-2008, 08:42 PM
I invoke the mighty man-god Mergenstein to merge this and all the other threads into the 'All-Purpose Bullshit Argument, Bogus Internet Articles Quoted in Lieu of Cogent Arguments, Bullshit Anecdotal Evidence in Lieu of any Real Knowledge of the Facts, Pointless Recrimination, Endless Ad Hominem Attacks, Strawman Arguments, Semantic Quibbling and Tearful, Shirt-Rending Hyperbole Thread'.
Or just retitle this one... whichever's easier.
Oh, and I thought I'd dig this one up. It may come in useful.
http://polrua.livejournal.com/151464.html
Thanks to jessecuster3, or as he was know then, jessecuster2.
Loren
02-26-2008, 08:42 PM
Depends what you mean by "the government", doesn't it. In my brain, the whole state apparatus is "the government". Sure, "the government" at any given moment is just those guys and gals up on the hill mouthing off about nothing. But the po po, the courts, the IRS etc. etc. are the long arm of the government.
But rick's point is that the power to impose the death penalty does not lie with any government agents. It lies with civilian juries. The Supreme Court has held that only juries (and not judges) are Constitutionally permitted to impose the death penalty on a criminal defendant.
In addition, as best I can tell, every death penalty state except Florida requires that a jury has to be unanimous in order to impose the death penalty. So (outside of Florida), any one person on any death penalty jury can effectively prevent that given defendant from being executed.
Finally, here (http://www.cga.ct.gov/2005/rpt/2005-R-0153.htm) is a state-by-state breakdown of how each state's law handles sentencing in death penalty cases when the jury can't agree on a sentence.
Pól Rua
02-26-2008, 08:43 PM
:eek:
How dare they do this. What this man did was not that bad at all. He deserves to live out the rest of his life being fed well, getting an education, watching tv on his break time, surfing the web, and having shelter from the elements at the tax payers expense. This is real justice afterall.
Plus all the regular sex you could want AND THEN SOME!
Admittedly, it's mostly 'And Then Some'.
Joe Franklin
02-26-2008, 08:44 PM
If life in prison is so great and all, then why don't you commit a crime and get sentenced to life in prison? If prison was as great as you say it is, then everyone would want to go there.
Freedom is better then imprisonment if you have the choice, but prisoners in the USA are hardly punished for their crimes. They get free medical and dental care, free meals, free rent, and all the tobacco and illegal drugs they want. Thy live better then our military does in combat times, and this is very wrong.
Gilda Dent
02-26-2008, 08:47 PM
Except the fact that they don't involve the government executing people with tax payers money.;)
You're right there. The government usually uses the gas chamber or lethal injection. I imagine money would make a pretty poor instrument of death.
I could tie them in to abortion in about two seconds if I were in the mood, but it would make about as much sense as trying to tie together abortion and capital punishment, which was the point I was trying to make.
Joe Franklin
02-26-2008, 08:52 PM
it would make about as much sense as trying to tie together abortion and capital punishment, which was the point I was trying to make.
Both use federal tax money to end human life. Both are very similar.
Gilda Dent
02-26-2008, 08:55 PM
Both use federal tax money to end human life. Both are very similar.
I assume then, that because you're opposed to abortion rights, that you're in favor of gay marriage and gay adoption. If not, you're being wildly inconsistent.
mattx110
02-26-2008, 08:56 PM
Freedom is better then imprisonment if you have the choice, but prisoners in the USA are hardly punished for their crimes. They get free medical and dental care, free meals, free rent, and all the tobacco and illegal drugs they want. Thy live better then our military does in combat times, and this is very wrong.
Sounds like they live better than us out enjoying our freedom.
Joe Franklin
02-26-2008, 09:01 PM
Sounds like they live better than us out enjoying our freedom.
Well, they are told when they come and go, when they go to bed and wake up, and spend tons of time behind bars, so we free men and women have it much better, but the prisoners should have it much worse then they do.
Pól Rua
02-26-2008, 09:08 PM
Well, they are told when they come and go, when they go to bed and wake up, and spend tons of time behind bars, so we free men and women have it much better, but the prisoners should have it much worse then they do.
Oh for the good ol' days of the Spanish Inquisition!
Thumbscrews for everyone!
thespianphryne
02-26-2008, 09:10 PM
Tea and cake, or death?
Michael P
02-26-2008, 09:12 PM
Boy, I really wish Eric Schlosser would get around to finishing that book on the prison system so I could shut threads like this down in a heartbeat.
howyadoin
02-26-2008, 09:19 PM
Sounds like they live better than us out enjoying our freedom.We certainly don't get shanked in the back as much.
Michael P
02-26-2008, 09:21 PM
We certainly don't get shanked in the back as much.
And when I drop the soap in the shower, I can pick it up without fear of anal rape.
Gilda Dent
02-26-2008, 09:26 PM
We certainly don't get shanked in the back as much.
And when I drop the soap in the shower, I can pick it up without fear of anal rape.
Wait . . . those aren't common occurrances? Are you sure?
I am going to be quite miffed with some of the people at work if this is true.
Aaron Kashtan
02-26-2008, 09:43 PM
You're right there. The government usually uses the gas chamber or lethal injection. I imagine money would make a pretty poor instrument of death.
Well, it depends on what sort of currency. On the island of Yap, they used to use these as money:
http://www.visit-fsm.org/yap/gallery/64.jpg
These objects would probably be very effective tools for execution. And according to tihs page (http://economistsview.typepad.com/economistsview/2005/09/yapping_about_m.html), most of these stones were owned by powerful chiefs, so they even qualify as "government money"!
Paul McEnery
02-26-2008, 09:44 PM
Oh my God.
Paul I would never have thought it of you.
You think that children are nice! :eek:
What about the mean little bastards who already knew that biting someone would hurt?
Nope.
I've seen shitty permissive parents, and shitty punitive parents, and it's no great surprise to me how their kids turn out.
Raising a kid -- at least, a little kid, cause that's all I know about -- is easy. All you have to do is let the kid lead. They know what they need. They're basically empathic beings. Sometimes they need a nudge to remind them that other kids are people too, and yes, you have to give the ball back. Piece of cake.
Either that, or I actually am the Buddha. Wouldn't that be a kick in the arse!
howyadoin
02-26-2008, 09:45 PM
Sometimes they need a nudge to remind them that other kids are people too...Define "nudge".
Paul McEnery
02-26-2008, 09:47 PM
Joe Quesada retconning Spider-Man's marriage.
No, even Jimmy Carter couldn't solve that one.
Paul McEnery
02-26-2008, 09:48 PM
And when I drop the soap in the shower, I can pick it up without fear of anal rape.
I hate to break it to you...
Mike Pothier
02-26-2008, 09:58 PM
Remind me.
Gold star points for demonstrating any relevance or truthfulness whatsoever.
Are we interested in an actual discussion or just pontificating?
StoneGold
02-26-2008, 10:01 PM
Are we interested in an actual discussion or just pontificating?
I think we're trying to ruin the thread so Cronin closes it. But that's probably not really a bad thing.
... but the prisoners should have it much worse then they do.Just curious - what exactly do you think should be done with them?
Pól Rua
02-26-2008, 10:09 PM
Either that, or I actually am the Buddha. Wouldn't that be a kick in the arse!
Just hope I never see you on the road, buddy.
I'ma go Frankenstein on yer arse!
I think we're trying to ruin the thread so Cronin closes it. But that's probably not really a bad thing.
I know I am.
Just curious - what exactly do you think should be done with them?
[Patrick Stewart]Oooh, weird stuff! Butt stuff![/Patrick Stewart]
Basically, he's feeling disempowered and impotent, and he's looking to make his dick feel bigger by indulging himself in his little torture fantasies.
BAZOOKA!
Gilda Dent
02-26-2008, 10:12 PM
Are we interested in an actual discussion or just pontificating?
I'm going to get controversial here:
Frank Miller's comic adaptation of Robocop was as good as the original movie.
Mike Pothier
02-26-2008, 10:14 PM
How dare you! /Frank Costanza
StoneGold
02-26-2008, 10:15 PM
I'm going to get controversial here:
Frank Miller's comic adaptation of Robocop was as good as the original movie.
Mostly because Miller never did one. Are you talking about the Robocop 2 comic based on his original script they did a year or two ago? Because that and Robocop vs. Terminator were the only two FM comic Robocop projects. Except he didn't actually do the Robocop 2 comic, I think that was Steven Grant.
Nope.
I've seen shitty permissive parents, and shitty punitive parents, and it's no great surprise to me how their kids turn out.
Raising a kid -- at least, a little kid, cause that's all I know about -- is easy. All you have to do is let the kid lead. They know what they need. They're basically empathic beings. Sometimes they need a nudge to remind them that other kids are people too, and yes, you have to give the ball back. Piece of cake.
Either that, or I actually am the Buddha. Wouldn't that be a kick in the arse!
Oh sure, little kids are normally fine.
It's what happens to them once they start hanging out at school with other kids where they get evil.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.1.12 Copyright © 2012 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.