The Long Halloween - Wow.

[JayC]

I'm not sure if this is allowed, but I am about 2/3 of the way into the Long Halloween and it's just fantastic. I mean, it's got so much great action and story telling!

Every chapter is another villain, another issue to deal with and the writing is just fantastic, the whole story line really has me drawn in.

Can't wait to finish! Is Dark Victory as great as this!?

[BurningStarIV]

I'm not sure if this is allowed, but I am about 2/3 of the way into the Long Halloween and it's just fantastic. I mean, it's got so much great action and story telling!

Every chapter is another villain, another issue to deal with and the writing is just fantastic, the whole story line really has me drawn in.

Can't wait to finish! Is Dark Victory as great as this!?
Jeph Loeb and Tim Sale at their best. The Long Halloween is a phenomenal read. It's actually the first Absolute HC I ever purchased. Tim Sale's art looks amazing in the large hardcover.

Dark Victory doesn't have the same hype surrounding it as The Long Halloween, but it is a great story from a great team. You should also check out Catwoman: When it Rome (which occurs during Dark Victory, and is done by Loeb/Sale) and Haunted Knight, the collection of Jeph Loeb and Tim Sale's Halloween Batman stories.

Jeph Loeb and Tim Sale make an awesome team.

[Tahko Tetsujin]

I'm not sure if this is allowed, but I am about 2/3 of the way into the Long Halloween and it's just fantastic. I mean, it's got so much great action and story telling!

Every chapter is another villain, another issue to deal with and the writing is just fantastic, the whole story line really has me drawn in.

Can't wait to finish! Is Dark Victory as great as this!?

If you are only 2/3rds the way through, you shouldn't have posted. I love this story so much that I won't talk to people about it until they've read it. It usually goes like this:

"How's this Batman one?"

"I can't tell you."

"Why?"

"Because it's awesome and I'm not telling you anything else."

"That good huh?"

Then they read it and they understand why. To talk about that story without having read it completely is doing yourself a disservice.

[Robo Ape]

I'm not sure if this is allowed, but I am about 2/3 of the way into the Long Halloween and it's just fantastic. I mean, it's got so much great action and story telling!

Every chapter is another villain, another issue to deal with and the writing is just fantastic, the whole story line really has me drawn in.

Can't wait to finish! Is Dark Victory as great as this!?

Great title. I have all the original issues about the place somewhere. One of the best Bat book's of recent years by some distance.

[the-wolf]

Jeph Loeb and Tim Sale at their best. The Long Halloween is a phenomenal read. It's actually the first Absolute HC I ever purchased. Tim Sale's art looks amazing in the large hardcover.

Dark Victory doesn't have the same hype surrounding it as The Long Halloween, but it is a great story from a great team. You should also check out Catwoman: When it Rome (which occurs during Dark Victory, and is done by Loeb/Sale) and Haunted Knight, the collection of Jeph Loeb and Tim Sale's Halloween Batman stories.

Jeph Loeb and Tim Sale make an awesome team.

Agreed on all points except for one. Catwoman: When in Rome is crap IMO. Very boring story, little action, feels like it was done just to cash in on DV and LH and ends up detracting from those two stories.

Haunted Knight is awesome though. I remember hardly being able to wait each Halloween for a new story to come out.

[BurningStarIV]

Agreed on all points except for one. Catwoman: When in Rome is crap IMO. Very boring story, little action, feels like it was done just to cash in on DV and LH and ends up detracting from those two stories..

I love When in Rome. I don't need constant non-stop action to be entertained, like a lot of comic readers these days. And I also really enjoy the character of Catwoman, so I was excited to see a Catwoman story with art by Tim Sale.

It's one of those things where you kind of have to make your own opinion about it. Some people enjoy When in Rome. Some people don't. The only way to find out about how you feel about it is to read it. And the TPB of When in Rome is a nice collection, and inexpensive at that.

[DF2506]

I love The Long Halloween and Dark Victory. I think TLH is the best, but Dark Victory is excellent too. I actually collected the single issues of Dark Victory AND ended up getting the trade too (if I had known about TLH when it came out in singles I would have done the same with it. lol) ! :)

I need to get Catwoman: When In Rome too. I missed that one...

I also highly recommand Superman For All Seasons, Daredevil: Yellow (also by Loeb & Sale, just at Marvel), and Spiderman: Blue (ditto).

I still think The Long Halloween is their best though. :)

DF2506

[shogunw00t]

SPOILERS FOR ORIGINAL POSTER. DO NOT READ THIS UNTIL YOU ARE DONE READING










I enjoyed TLH, but I don't understand why a lot of people consider it a great BATMAN story. I think it's a great story, but Batman gets totally doped throughout the whole book and even at the end, he doesn't fully solve the mystery. It was a great twist at the end DEFINTELY, but it still made Batman look like a punk, in my opinion.

Dark Victory is also an awesome book. I'm big Dick Grayson fan, so I personally enjoyed it more than TLH, but that's just me being biased.

[Shadow ES]

TLH and DV are in my top 5 favorite Batman stories.

[Tahko Tetsujin]

SPOILERS FOR ORIGINAL POSTER. DO NOT READ THIS UNTIL YOU ARE DONE READING










I enjoyed TLH, but I don't understand why a lot of people consider it a great BATMAN story. I think it's a great story, but Batman gets totally doped throughout the whole book and even at the end, he doesn't fully solve the mystery. It was a great twist at the end DEFINTELY, but it still made Batman look like a punk, in my opinion.

Dark Victory is also an awesome book. I'm big Dick Grayson fan, so I personally enjoyed it more than TLH, but that's just me being biased.

Dude, Bats could not have even anticipated that. Even so, his error is human and in the end, you like to think bats is human for all his hardness. That's what makes Superman/Batman work so often in their comic.

[Infernorhythm]

I didn't really like the villain-per-issue bit or some versions of the villains (Loeb's Joker? Weak.). Still, one of the best Bat-stories, great mystery, and its a book that will keep you thinking.

[Laughing Mask]

wow indeed.

[JayC]

Well, I just finished Long Halloween up tonight - fantastic! I expected a twist at the end, and then it twisted a bit more to give me a surprise! Just a great book, truly. I can't wait to pick up Dark Victory in the next day or two - I have high expectations considering how great Long Halloween was so I hope it lives up to them!

P.S. - I will be sure to pick up When in Rome, Catwoman - she seems like a cool character - and of course, she's pretty hott :P

[Captain Jim]

I liked it a lot as well. Dark Victory and Catwoman: When in Rome are also good, but can't quite match the original.

On the other hand, TLH is probably one of the reasons I'm lukewarm on Hush. It had a decided "been there, done that" feel to it after reading these others.

[shogunw00t]

Dude, Bats could not have even anticipated that. Even so, his error is human and in the end, you like to think bats is human for all his hardness. That's what makes Superman/Batman work so often in their comic.


as the world's greatest detective he got dooped by Two Face and his wife. In my opinion, it didn't make Batman look human. It made him look like a punk for being so sure at the end and as the reader finds out he's wrong. He didn't even need to look anymore human than he already had, as he struggled to come to terms with what happened to his friend and his doubt in his own instincts about Harvey.

[JayC]

as the world's greatest detective he got dooped by Two Face and his wife. In my opinion, it didn't make Batman look human. It made him look like a punk for being so sure at the end and as the reader finds out he's wrong. He didn't even need to look anymore human than he already had, as he struggled to come to terms with what happened to his friend and his doubt in his own instincts about Harvey.

Not to mention him looking like a total puss when he inhales some of the scarecrow's gas and he goes all looney missing "daddy" and "mommy". I know it's his demons and all but he looked very fragile there, too.

[Nefarius]

The first time i read TLH i said "wow,it's one of the best bat-stories ever made".Second time i check it wasn't so great.It has a mystery.one villain per issue and good art.Everything that makes a comic book sellable.It's good,but when you start to analyse it,you feel that it's not so great as they advertise it.

On the other hand,i enjoyed Dark Victory a bit more.(maybe because we see more of the Two-face)

[J Sin]

I'm not sure if this is allowed, but I am about 2/3 of the way into the Long Halloween and it's just fantastic. I mean, it's got so much great action and story telling!

Every chapter is another villain, another issue to deal with and the writing is just fantastic, the whole story line really has me drawn in.

Can't wait to finish! Is Dark Victory as great as this!?

I just finished reading these two! We must both be reading the Storylines collection, huh? See my sig.

I loved TLH, and loved DV even more. It's the first 5-star rating I gave to the Batman TPBs so far.

[Robo Ape]

I love When in Rome. I don't need constant non-stop action to be entertained, like a lot of comic readers these days. And I also really enjoy the character of Catwoman, so I was excited to see a Catwoman story with art by Tim Sale.

It's one of those things where you kind of have to make your own opinion about it. Some people enjoy When in Rome. Some people don't. The only way to find out about how you feel about it is to read it. And the TPB of When in Rome is a nice collection, and inexpensive at that.

Yeah it is good, very evocative art used in it. Is it me or does it have a very 20's/30's look to it?

[stealthwise]

The first time i read TLH i said "wow,it's one of the best bat-stories ever made".Second time i check it wasn't so great.It has a mystery.one villain per issue and good art.Everything that makes a comic book sellable.It's good,but when you start to analyse it,you feel that it's not so great as they advertise it.


Like most of Loeb's better works, it reads well enough on the first go-around, but fails to hold up to repeated readings.

[Pixie_Solanas]

I find myself re-reading a lot of Loeb's work strictly for the art, i.e. Sale and Lee (on Hush). The story usually doesn't hold up.

[carabas]

I find myself re-reading a lot of Loeb's work strictly for the art, i.e. Sale and Lee (on Hush). The story usually doesn't hold up.Interestingly, or not, but IMO the most enjoyable bit of Heroes is Tim Sale ghost-painting for Isaac Mendez.

[jesse_custer]

I was pleased with the journey of The Long Halloween but rather let down by its conclusion. A series worth reading for sure.

[Miss J.]

wow indeed.

Word. I second that.

[Maresk]

I would consider Long Hallowen a masterpiece if it wasn't for the stupid epilogue. I actually ripped off the last four pages from my TPB and throw them to the trash can. While Dark Victory makes more sense as a story, the fact that it's a cheap re-hash of the holiday killer theme turns me off. A killer that strikes on holidays--again?? Oh please, buy Jeph a new plot.

That said, it's still a dozen times better than, say, Hush. I like the characterization and they're probably the stories were Two-Face is treated best, and I love Sale's art. Good read, but far from perfect.

[mgs]

Catwoman: When in Rome are also good

Really? I didn't really like that one. But then again, every 'non-catwoman' catwoman story I get, is going to get compared to Selina's Big Score. In my eyes, the goal for every Catwoman gn book to reach. ;)

[Maresk]

When in Rome sucks in the story department too (just who the hell told Jeph he was good at writing mystery? The man has had one good story and just recycles it to the infinite), but Tim Sale was even better there than in the previous works. His Selina Kyle is incredible, and those spreads with the Vatican buildings and stuff are uber-awesome. It is worth having just because of that.

[dancj]

Tim Sale is the master. When I see people saying they love Jim Lee, but don't like Tim Sale I wince.

[LewMoxinsghost]

I am really glad I found this thread after having just completed The Long Halloween. This was definitely a good read. I am still taking in the art... The way Catwoman was depicted was awesome. So sexy- the catholic schoolgirl all grown up and gone wrong. The fact that they kept the original Golden Age Two-face origin intact and delved into the family (the chart at the end was likewise awesome- wish I had seen that at the very begininng) and pushed it farther was bad-assical. I'll shelve this one right next to Killing Joke and Dark Knight Returns!

[JayC]

I finished up: Long Halloween, Dark Victory and When in Rome - great, great stories! I really enjoyed them, I think Loeb is an amazing writer through and through - so I went ahead and bought Hush 1 / 2 and Haunted Knight - apparently I'm a batman fan? haha.

[OverMaster]

as the world's greatest detective he got dooped by Two Face and his wife. In my opinion, it didn't make Batman look human. It made him look like a punk for being so sure at the end and as the reader finds out he's wrong. He didn't even need to look anymore human than he already had, as he struggled to come to terms with what happened to his friend and his doubt in his own instincts about Harvey.

To be fair, though, that was Batman when he still was a novice. He still was learning from his mistakes.

[Captain Jim]

I finished up: Long Halloween, Dark Victory and When in Rome - great, great stories! I really enjoyed them, I think Loeb is an amazing writer through and through - so I went ahead and bought Hush 1 / 2 and Haunted Knight - apparently I'm a batman fan? haha.

Be sure and let us know how you like Hush. A lot of people who had earlier read the other works were underwhelmed by it. But maybe your experience will be different.

[longshot3]

To be fair, though, that was Batman when he still was a novice. He still was learning from his mistakes.


I agree, the story was set very early in Batman's career. I loved TLH and DV. While DV was not better than TLH, it was at least almost as good, if that makes sense. 2 of my favorite Batman stories for sure

[JayC]

Be sure and let us know how you like Hush. A lot of people who had earlier read the other works were underwhelmed by it. But maybe your experience will be different.

I can understand why you'd want to hear this from me, now.

First of all, moving to Jim Lee's art is a HUGE transition from Sale. It's so much more... well, modern? As Loeb describes, it's very detailed art and it's absolutely beautiful in it's own right. I'm not sure if I like Sale's art or Lee better thus far, maybe I like them both in different ways.

In regards to the story, first of all I've just been introduced to Robin (barely) in Dark Victory so to hear of characters like Oracle or seeing Batman saved by Raven was very different - I'm used to him as a solo artist.

I thought it was great to see the Bat finally kiss Catwoman! God, the sexual tension has been getting to ME as of late, it's about f'ing time!!! haha.

I don't know how I feel about Poison Ivy in general, are there better books about this character? She just gains control of Superman like it's nothing? Come on... how? Can I get a bit more information? It just seemed ridiculous how she controlled Croc, Catwoman and then Superman like it was just another day...

That said, the story line in general was cool - I definetly enjoyed it and look forward to Hush 2 which I'll finish up in the next day or two and post back.

[Choppa]

That said, the story line in general was cool - I definetly enjoyed it and look forward to Hush 2 which I'll finish up in the next day or two and post back.

You might want to stay away from "HUSH Returns," which wasn't written by Loeb and doesn't feature Jim Lee's art. It's pretty bad and has no ending.

Though if you thought "HUSH" was good then maybe it's your cup of tea.

[Libaax]

Tim Sale's art in TLH and DV is the most perfect art i have seen in a superhero comic. I almost drooled when i read the trades. Both stories are good, TLH being the best but the art made both stories for me. The he way he used the shadows for Batman and that you rarely see Bats outside the shadows was awesome.

Shame there arent maffia villains of Bats like in these two series.

Along with TDKR TLH and DV is the reason Batman is my favorit hero.

Also the reason i dont understand the hype around the hate for Loeb cause in my eyes he is as perfect in my eyes with these two series as Frank Miller is with TDKR,Year One.

Hush wasnt great but thats was mostly cause the lame pretty boy art or as in manga langauge "Yaoi" art of Jim Lee.....

[JayC]

You might want to stay away from "HUSH Returns," which wasn't written by Loeb and doesn't feature Jim Lee's art. It's pretty bad and has no ending.

Though if you thought "HUSH" was good then maybe it's your cup of tea.

I heard that, so I only got Hush 1 & 2, not Hush returns. Thanks for the suggestion though.

[Choppa]

I heard that, so I only got Hush 1 & 2, not Hush returns. Thanks for the suggestion though.

Ah, by HUSH 2 I thought you meant "Returns."

[carabas]

First of all, moving to Jim Lee's art is a HUGE transition from Sale. It's so much more... well, modern?I'd call Tim Sale's art timeles but slightly retro. Jim Lee on the other hand will never look like anything else than a product of the early nineties. He just looks very dated to me.

I don't know how I feel about Poison Ivy in general, are there better books about this character? She just gains control of Superman like it's nothing? Come on... how? Can I get a bit more information? It just seemed ridiculous how she controlled Croc, Catwoman and then Superman like it was just another day...She did have kryptonite lipstick for Superman (I guess nobody told her it's highly radio-active and cost Luthor a hand once). But yeah, she did seem a lot more mind-controlly than normal.

[Captain Jim]

Jay, Hush 2 is simply a continuation of the same story; not a separate work. So be sure to check back with us after you've finished the whole thing. :)

[Netley]

I actually liked Dark Victory better (but maybe because I read it first - can't remember why I did that haha).

[Omar Karindu]

The fact that they kept the original Golden Age Two-face origin intact and delved into the family (the chart at the end was likewise awesome- wish I had seen that at the very begininng) and pushed it farther was bad-assical. I'll shelve this one right next to Killing Joke and Dark Knight Returns!

None of the Two-Face material in TLH aside from Gilda's bit at the end is Loeb's. The origin material you're discussing is from Batman Annual #14, by Andy Helfer and Chris Sprouse, with some bits of Miller and Mazzuchelli's Year One blended in.

Loeb is quite open about this in the TPB introduction, by the by, so he's hardly stealing the material. But if you compare the two earlier stories to TLH, it's pretty clear that those story elements are not of Loeb's invention.

[carabas]

None of the Two-Face material in TLH aside from Gilda's bit at the end is Loeb's.And the Gilda bit at the end is copied almost directly from the ending of the movie 'Presumed Innocent'.

[JayC]

Jay, Hush 2 is simply a continuation of the same story; not a separate work. So be sure to check back with us after you've finished the whole thing. :)

Hey Captain,

I understand now, thanks.

Finished up he second Volume of Hush, here are my thoughts.

I really enjoyed it. The writing (of course) was great and I thought the art was really nice - obviously that's subjective but I thought it worked great for a Batman comic, so no complaints there.

As for the story, a few things... first of all, talk about TWISTS AND TURNS! There was ALOT going on there, I could hardly keep up, especially because I don't know a lot of the characters.

Ras, for instance, is someone I recognize from the recent movie, but I think I'd like to read more about him, now. He was a bad ass, no doubt, and the assasins in general were, too.

It was cool to see Bruce finally show himself to Catwoman and watch them work together, even better was the ending, that's exactly what I would expect from Batman - he's just too damn paranoid to trust someone that easily.

I've never seen Clayface before, not sure what to think about him really. He tricked me for sure, but I needed/wanted background on him.

Harvey coming back was a bit strange to me - granted, I've only read (see my signature) some of the Batman books so I have no idea how long he had bene 2-face so people might have been really happy, but for me, he just became 2-face! haha.

Again, it was a really cool book and I'm very glad I read it and have it on my shelf!

[michaeljsmith]

After reading this thread I decided to pull out the book and read it on a business flight from Chicago to Atlanta. It does lose a little something in the reading it a second time around but that has to do with the last 4 pages... which I did not think needed to happen.

In all honesty though this is one of the five books that every Batman fan should be required to read and better yet must own.

[Choppa]

Hey Captain,

I understand now, thanks.

Finished up he second Volume of Hush, here are my thoughts.

I really enjoyed it. The writing (of course) was great and I thought the art was really nice - obviously that's subjective but I thought it worked great for a Batman comic, so no complaints there.

As for the story, a few things... first of all, talk about TWISTS AND TURNS! There was ALOT going on there, I could hardly keep up, especially because I don't know a lot of the characters.

Ras, for instance, is someone I recognize from the recent movie, but I think I'd like to read more about him, now. He was a bad ass, no doubt, and the assasins in general were, too.

It was cool to see Bruce finally show himself to Catwoman and watch them work together, even better was the ending, that's exactly what I would expect from Batman - he's just too damn paranoid to trust someone that easily.

I've never seen Clayface before, not sure what to think about him really. He tricked me for sure, but I needed/wanted background on him.

Harvey coming back was a bit strange to me - granted, I've only read (see my signature) some of the Batman books so I have no idea how long he had bene 2-face so people might have been really happy, but for me, he just became 2-face! haha.

Again, it was a really cool book and I'm very glad I read it and have it on my shelf!

New fans tend to love HUSH becasue it serves as a nice introduction to all of the major aspects of the current incarnation of the character. Now that you're "in" you can start reading some of the better stuff.

By the way, I haven't read the whole thread so correct me if I'm wrong, but did you say that you read TLH and HUSH and liked them both?

[tkitna]

After reading 'The Killing Joke' and 'The Dark Knight Returns' i've been searching high and low for a compariable story with Batman. 'The Long Halloween' didnt deliver. I felt it was an average story at best and was let down after reading all the high praise it recieved.

Maybe there arent any storys on the same level as the first two I mentioned, but i'll continue to search.

[JayC]

New fans tend to love HUSH becasue it serves as a nice introduction to all of the major aspects of the current incarnation of the character. Now that you're "in" you can start reading some of the better stuff.

By the way, I haven't read the whole thread so correct me if I'm wrong, but did you say that you read TLH and HUSH and liked them both?

Indeed, I did. They were certainly different, but I really liked them both.

To my friend above me, if you found TLH to be only average, then point me in the direction of those which are just as good and better than it because I want to check those out IMMEDIATELY. Granted, I am a Jeph Loeb fan...

[dancj]

After reading 'The Killing Joke' and 'The Dark Knight Returns' i've been searching high and low for a compariable story with Batman. 'The Long Halloween' didnt deliver. I felt it was an average story at best and was let down after reading all the high praise it recieved.

Maybe there arent any storys on the same level as the first two I mentioned, but i'll continue to search.
Personally I think The Killing Joke is merely 'quite good' and no-where near on the same level as The Dark Knight Returns.

If you want something that really is up there with The Dark Knight Returns, read Year One. I also thought Secrets by Sam Keith was excellent too.

[Libaax]

I rate TDKR,Year One way way over The Killing Joke.

Great:

The Dark Knight Returns
Year One
The Long Halloween
The Dark Victory
Tales of the Demon(Neal Adams/O'Neill Ra's stories from the 70's)


Good :

Broken Bat
Blind Justice
The Killing Joke
Prodigal
Bruce Wayne: Murderer,Fugitive
Many Deaths of Batman

[Choppa]

Indeed, I did. They were certainly different, but I really liked them both.

To my friend above me, if you found TLH to be only average, then point me in the direction of those which are just as good and better than it because I want to check those out IMMEDIATELY. Granted, I am a Jeph Loeb fan...

I liked Batman: Gothic. It was an arc in 'Legends' from years ago written by Grant Morrison, the guy currently writing Batman. It was recently reprinted so it should be easy to find if you're interested.

http://www.hillcity-comics.com/graphic_novels/bat/gothic.jpg

[JayC]

I liked Batman: Gothic. It was an arc in 'Legends' from years ago written by Grant Morrison, the guy currently writing Batman. It was recently reprinted so it should be easy to find if you're interested.

http://www.hillcity-comics.com/graphic_novels/bat/gothic.jpg

Thanks Choppa, I'll pick it up someday when I can, but I've got $250 worth of trades on the way that don't include it. Give me a few months. Heh.

[JayC]

I take that back, my order didn't process so I re-ordered with changes and got:

Gothic
Blind Justice

In place of some other works.

I'll let ya know.

[Lupek]

I just finished Long halloween after getting it for Christmas and I just wanted to post something like... Wow. I see I am not the only one. :smile:

I'm not going to wait as long as I did to read Haunted Knight and Dark Victory as I did Long Halloween that's for sure.

[Retro315]

I loved The Long Halloween and Dark Victory.

But even though I love Tim Sale's artwork, to this day I do want to see another artist take a stab at it. Not in a sacrilegious way, because the story will always belong to Loeb/Sale ... but just to match it up to more mainstream Batman books I'd like to see one of the top artists in the world giving it a more modern spin.

[pressdarlings]

Yeah it is good, very evocative art used in it. Is it me or does it have a very 20's/30's look to it?

It's not just you. That's part of it's appeal, imo. Only wish the Nolan flicks could capture that. Very Deco.

[dancj]

I loved The Long Halloween and Dark Victory.

But even though I love Tim Sale's artwork, to this day I do want to see another artist take a stab at it. Not in a sacrilegious way, because the story will always belong to Loeb/Sale ... but just to match it up to more mainstream Batman books I'd like to see one of the top artists in the world giving it a more modern spin.

Tim Sale is one of the top comic artists in the world - and the main reason why everyone loves this book so much. Why on earth would anyone want to have this re-drawn unless you wanted to highlight the shortcomings of the script?

[Retro315]

Tim Sale is one of the top comic artists in the world - and the main reason why everyone loves this book so much. Why on earth would anyone want to have this re-drawn unless you wanted to highlight the shortcomings of the script?

Because the original would still exist.

It's not like iconic portions of Batman's life haven't been re-drawn by a couple dozen artists over the years. You can't throw a rock without hitting an artist who's done a variant of the original origin story. Marshall Rogers, Jim Aparo, Steve Englehart, Frank Miller, Jim Lee, Tony Daniel ... everyone's revisited it.

You might be right about the art being a key part of the book in that it compliments and enhances the script (which is a solid script but wouldn't be as ground-breaking without ground-breaking art). Still, I think the events hold up enough to be revisited.

I'd love to see Joker flying that prop plane at New Year drawn by Jim Lee (for the record I think Lee's overrated as well. Hush had great art, but he always tries to jam way too much techno-gizmotry into the background when sometimes a cavern wall or brick wall would suffice (and I hated that Batplane)).

I'd love to see Maroni tossing acid in Harvey's face drawn by Tony Daniel.

I'd love to see Joker breaking into Harvey's house on Christmas drawn by Marshall Rogers and him kicking Harvey in the pills old style.

I should stop remembering now though, because I just thought of Solomon Grundy's inclusion in TLH and it still makes zero sense to me. Jeph Loeb must've just really wanted to include Grundy for personal reasons ... or it was too early in Batman's history for Killer Croc.

[Lew Moxon]

I generally loved Tim Sale's art, but I really didn't like his Joker. Other than that I thought he was great.

[Jared]

The first time I read TLH I thought the story was great but the art wasn't to my tastes. On subsequent reads, I've found that the story doesn't hold up so well, it's merely pretty good. The art however, has really grown on me. I'm still not clear on which murders were done by Gilda, which were Alberto, and which, if any, were Pre-Two Face Harvey.

Dark Victory is better overall, but probably doesn't get as much credit because it's a direct sequel.

I also enjoy Hush, though I don't know what the hell is going on with Huntress, or how Riddler know about the Lazarus pits and what Tommy Elliot wanted, if that was really Tommy, etc...

[Libaax]

Tim Sale is one of the top comic artists in the world - and the main reason why everyone loves this book so much. Why on earth would anyone want to have this re-drawn unless you wanted to highlight the shortcomings of the script?


He was talking about like Sale was a nobody. Funny!

I agree without Sale LH,DV are good but not that good. His Batman is my alltime favorite.


Man i wish he drew more Batman and not only with Loeb.

[AJM]

I've never understood the love for Long Halloween. It's good but not particularly outstanding and Sale's art is far too over-stylized for me. It's not the quality of the image but rather the character designs, especially the Joker.

Hush is the other way round - i can't really be bothered with the story but the art's great in a spectacular COMIC BOOK! kind of way. Although i don't like Jim Lee's Joker either - he's doing a better job in All Star Batman & Robin but i really cannot stand the story and Frank Miller's writing - truly some of the worse dialogue to ever be printed in comics.

Imagine Long Halloween drawn by Jim Lee... it would've been much better, no?

[Greg Anderson]

No. Sale's art imo put it on another level. I love his Joker. Usually when one asks me who's my favorite artist who drew Joker, I think of Sale.

[nepenthes]

He was talking about like Sale was a nobody. Funny!

I agree without Sale LH,DV are good but not that good. His Batman is my alltime favorite.


Man i wish he drew more Batman and not only with Loeb.

the Blades arc written by James Robinson found in the Collected LoTDK trade. this is a great little little story. if you havn't read it already :cool:. also I believe the Tim Sale Collection may have work by other writers


I own 30-40 batman trades. I do not own Long Halloween or Hush. and yeah the best thing about it is Tim Sale

[carabas]

Sale's most well known work is probably in Heroes. He did all the Isaac Mendez painting, which are IMO the best thing in that show.

[AJM]

No. Sale's art imo put it on another level. I love his Joker. Usually when one asks me who's my favorite artist who drew Joker, I think of Sale.

I hated the Joker, especially his ridiculous teeth. Didn't like the Scarecrow either, although i just flicked through it again and i like just about everything else - it doesn't always work but when it does it's great, but i still find it to be highly over-rated.

[Killsocket]

I love TLH. But, like some people, I did not care for the Joker. But that was it. Everything else I loved. The art was very well done in every other aspect in my opinion.

[Libaax]

Sale's most well known work is probably in Heroes. He did all the Isaac Mendez painting, which are IMO the best thing in that show.


Are you kidding ? Do you think comic fans care about that ?



Sale is a great Batman artist and that is what he is most known for.

Who cares about a tv show whose fans wont even think about the artist of those paintings....

[Jared]

Imagine Long Halloween drawn by Jim Lee... it would've been much better, no?

No, because his style wouldn't fit the noir-esque mood of the story. By the same token, I don't think Hush by Sale would work as well, because it's primarily an action adventure.

I'm not a fan of Sale's Joker, either. He looks like a spindly alien who should fall to pieces when he takes a punch.

[carabas]

Are you kidding ? Do you think comic fans care about that ?Who's talking about comics fans? The audience that knows Sale's work through Heroes (even if they don't know his name) is massively larger than the audience that knows him from Batman.

Also, yes, comics fans do tend to care about science fiction shows about superheroes, even bad ones.

[nepenthes]

Silly carabas. Yeah they know his work, but they know it as background paintings in a silly show they watch and forget about. They don't know his name. They don't know what he's good at or what he brings to a collaboration. His input on the Heroes show overall is almost negligible. Where as in comics and to ourselves he is known as the guy who made Long Halloween readable, a book which is often cited as one of the most classic tales in one of the most iconic and well read franchises ever. I'm not a huge fan of Long Halloween but when it comes to comics and to Batman, that book is no small thing. Sale is better known by comic fans than dreary eyed TV zombies.

[Arksy]

Definitely in the top 3 Batman trades of all time behind The Killing Joke and DKR for me. Such a sublime book.

[Libaax]

Who's talking about comics fans? The audience that knows Sale's work through Heroes (even if they don't know his name) is massively larger than the audience that knows him from Batman.

Also, yes, comics fans do tend to care about science fiction shows about superheroes, even bad ones.

You are vastly overrating Heroes audience ;)

I know some of them, most dont think any comic artist drew that. Must be some amazing famous artist who did.


Still comic fans who know Sale for his comic work wont care that his work is in Heroes. Come on he isnt a nobody that is famous for some drawings on Heroes.

[Greg Anderson]

Am I the only one who has absolute fun looking at Sale's Joker?

[Couchman]

I loved TLH. I thought Dark Victory was total crap.

If you're going to read DV - and you might like it, I seem to be in the minority here - I'd suggest waiting several months. DV is a total re-hash of TLH. DV is based around holidays as well, there was no big mystery in it, Robin felt unnecessary and tacked on.

I read TLH in one night, I was totally sucked in. DV felt like a chore to read. I've got mixed feelings on Jeph Loeb. I don't understand why he would turn around and do basically the same story again. It felt like someone imitating the things that made me enjoy TLH. He could have at least taken the holiday idea and made it more interesting - 8 days of Batman Hanukkah, Bat-Ramadan, hell why not Bat-Administrative Assistant Day, or Batman-Talk Like a Pirate Day.

[40footwolf]

I wasn't a fan of the ending.

But I thought it was a fun ride.

[Greg Anderson]

I loved TLH. I thought Dark Victory was total crap.

If you're going to read DV - and you might like it, I seem to be in the minority here - I'd suggest waiting several months. DV is a total re-hash of TLH. DV is based around holidays as well, there was no big mystery in it, Robin felt unnecessary and tacked on.

I read TLH in one night, I was totally sucked in. DV felt like a chore to read. I've got mixed feelings on Jeph Loeb. I don't understand why he would turn around and do basically the same story again. It felt like someone imitating the things that made me enjoy TLH. He could have at least taken the holiday idea and made it more interesting - 8 days of Batman Hanukkah, Bat-Ramadan, hell why not Bat-Administrative Assistant Day, or Batman-Talk Like a Pirate Day.

I actually preferred TLH over DV myself. DV doesn't do much for me although I loved having Harvey lead the freaks and I liked Dick in the book. Overall, TLH does it for me more and I re-read that one more. I usually re-read DV for the awesome Two-Face stuff.

[Lorendiac]

Indeed, I did. They were certainly different, but I really liked them both.

To my friend above me, if you found TLH to be only average, then point me in the direction of those which are just as good and better than it because I want to check those out IMMEDIATELY. Granted, I am a Jeph Loeb fan...

I'm not the guy you're addressing there (this is my first post in this thread, which I just now noticed!), but I'll mention a few things:

1. I feel that TLH was definitely "above average" in general terms. But I also have some serious complaints about various specific things in it.

2. On the other hand, many of my favorite Batman stories are old stuff which has never been collected in TPBs for a newer generation of fans to read -- so I don't spend much time vigorously recommending that old stuff to people, because while they might be willing to walk into a store and buy one TPB to get one or two story arcs in a package deal (or order that TPB online from Amazon at a nice discount), they are much less likely to want to start digging around in bins in stores to gradually collect runs of dozens of dusty old back issues of "Batman" and "Detective Comics" from a quarter-century ago.

3. And there's also some good story arcs which have been collected into TPBs -- a long time ago -- but I never see those TPBs on the shelves any more because they've long since gone out of print.

4. So this leaves me with an odd dilemma. I happen to think Gerry Conway's run as a Batman writer in the early 1980s was some excellent stuff, for instance -- but can't easily prove it to a newer fan in an online discussion by saying, "Go buy such-and-such a TPB when you can; I think you'll like Conway's work!" because there never have been any TPBs collecting Conway's Batman stories from the early 1980s! Same goes for Doug Moench's run when he replaced Conway and stuck around for about three and a half years on both the "Batman" and "Detective Comics" titles!

(Note: In those days, the two titles were treated as twice-a-month installments of one ongoing narrative, always written by the same guy, so you couldn't collect just one and expect the monthly issues to make any sense. I have my runs of "Batman" and "Detective Comics" from that era filed together, an issue of one and then an issue of the other, according to the internal chronological sequence, in a long box.)

[nepenthes]

many of my favorite Batman stories are old stuff which has never been collected in TPBs for a newer generation of fans to read

interesting what are they? just briefly, apart from Conway.

yeah it's annoying that DC seems fine to just leave so much stuff uncollected. I know it's a question of whether people will actually buy the stuff (it's expensive to design and produce a print run obviously) but still there'll never be a market for it unless DC actually goes about encouraging one in the first place. Look at all the guys coming here asking about which trades to buy...people want to buy batman comics and after you've covered the first lot of 'classic' trades you're kinda stuck in the 90's and onwards as far as further reading goes.

Personally I'm waiting for a Colan/Newton Moench collection. Thats a period I really like.

Just please don't mess the with colouring eg the Neil Adams Collections. those books make me very sad.

[dancj]

Am I the only one who has absolute fun looking at Sale's Joker?
Nah - I love it too.

In fact, the only Tim Sale rendition I'm not 100% sold on is Batman himself. I prefer him to be a bit less muscly and balloon-like

[Mutate]

I really wish DC would do like Marvel and release TPBs of 80s runs - not specifc stories, just runs like the Conway era, Jim Aparo era, Mike Barr era etc. Marvel do it, like with the Miller Daredevil, but it seems you can only get stories like Death in the Family (apart from the odd skimpy compilation like "in the 70s" or "greatest stories"). A lot of my favourite stories from the 80s were just low key 2 part stories where nothing earth-shaking happened, but were just fun to read. Although much as I like them I admit they could seem dated and repetitive to modern readers...possibly why DC doesn't think they're a big seller? Thats why I was so dissapointed that the showcase series started with the goofy 60s era, and will take ages to reach the 70s/80s if the series even lasts that long.

And anyway, Death in the family would have been a much more effective read with the issues leading up to it, Jason's gradual rebellion, killing of the woman-beater etc. Its bare in the book on its own.

[Lorendiac]

Sorry about that -- double post. There was a long delay with the Net on my end -- that probably had something to do with it.

[Lorendiac]

2. On the other hand, many of my favorite Batman stories are old stuff which has never been collected in TPBs for a newer generation of fans to read -- so I don't spend much time vigorously recommending that old stuff to people, because while they might be willing to walk into a store and buy one TPB to get one or two story arcs in a package deal (or order that TPB online from Amazon at a nice discount), they are much less likely to want to start digging around in bins in stores to gradually collect runs of dozens of dusty old back issues of "Batman" and "Detective Comics" from a quarter-century ago.

interesting what are they? just briefly, apart from Conway.

Well, I was mainly thinking of the Conway run and the Moench run which immediately followed it (much of which was vastly superior to the second Moench run on Batman in the 1990s!), but there has been other good stuff before and after those two. Len Wein's "Batman" run in the late 70s had some good moments, and I'm particularly fond of a two-part Batman story arc in "Detective Comics" which was written by Michael Fleisher and introduced the Earth-1 version of the Crime Doctor concept (which I long assumed, until someone told me otherwise recently, was a completely original concept -- I think I'd never heard of the Golden Age Crime Doctor). Marv Wolfman's second run as a Batman writer, beginning in 1989 and going over into the early 90s, was a rather haphazard thing in quality. I had no interest in his creation Abattoir, for instance, but thought some of his other stories were quite good -- and some of those never got collected anywhere. (I don't remember seeing any collection of his three-part NKVDemon arc, for instance, which was obviously being written as his take on how Starlin's KGBeast arc a couple of years earlier "should have" been handled.)

[Lorendiac]

None of the Two-Face material in TLH aside from Gilda's bit at the end is Loeb's.

And the Gilda bit at the end is copied almost directly from the ending of the movie 'Presumed Innocent'.

I've never seen the movie, but I assume that whoever made a confession speech at the end was, in fact, guilty of murder, and that this revelation made perfect sense in the context of whatever had been previously established in the story. (Okay, so I'm an optimist to make such assumptions!)

In the case of Gilda's weird closing monologue in TLH, the situation is different -- her confession doesn't make much sense in light of what has gone before, and thus it's far from clear that she is telling the truth. For over a decade now, the point has been very controversial. I am one of those who subscribe to the position that her monologue only proves that she's gone delusional, thinking she had far more control over recent events (such as the power of life and death) than she really did have!

[ACK!]

Just finished reading this recently and enjoyed it. I will seek out Loeb and Sale's other Bat-TPBs.

[ACK!]

I really wish DC would do like Marvel and release TPBs of 80s runs - not specifc stories, just runs like the Conway era, Jim Aparo era, Mike Barr era etc. Marvel do it, like with the Miller Daredevil, but it seems you can only get stories like Death in the Family (apart from the odd skimpy compilation like "in the 70s" or "greatest stories"). A lot of my favourite stories from the 80s were just low key 2 part stories where nothing earth-shaking happened, but were just fun to read. Although much as I like them I admit they could seem dated and repetitive to modern readers...possibly why DC doesn't think they're a big seller? Thats why I was so dissapointed that the showcase series started with the goofy 60s era, and will take ages to reach the 70s/80s if the series even lasts that long.

And anyway, Death in the family would have been a much more effective read with the issues leading up to it, Jason's gradual rebellion, killing of the woman-beater etc. Its bare in the book on its own.


An alternative is to send your actual books to a place like library binding and have the runs you want bound into a hardback volume. I had this done with Baron and Guice's Flash run from the late '80s relaunch because its unlikely they'll ever reprint those books.

You can pick whatever run or issues you like and they'll be put together in whatever order you want. A little costly, but worth it if you want a collected edition of something that's unlikely to be put out as a TPB.

[Arksy]

Just finished reading this recently and enjoyed it. I will seek out Loeb and Sale's other Bat-TPBs.

This is probably Loeb's best work, ever.

[dancj]

I'd give that honour to The Challengers of the Unknown

[ACK!]

This is probably Loeb's best work, ever.

First thing I've ever read by him, so I guess it's all downhill from here??:rolleyes: :biggrin:

[ARach]

Whatever happened to Gilda Dent.

[Lorendiac]

Whatever happened to Gilda Dent.

This question rang a bell. Several months ago, in another thread on here about The Long Halloween, someone asked: what was Gilda's "ultimate fate" and what comic book did it happen in?

The rest of this post is pasted in from what I said at the time!

_____________________________
Her ultimate fate? There wasn't one, so it didn't happen in any particular comic book. Even though I personally once outlined some ideas for tying up some loose ends in that department (not that anybody at DC knows or cares about my ideas, so they carry no weight with anyone).

That needs a little explaining, doesn't it? :smile:

Let me take this in order:

1. I have seen stories which were published before "The Long Halloween" which were set in more "modern times" (not back around the time Harvey first became Two-Face) which included Harvey's wife or ex-wife, sometimes called Gilda and sometimes called Grace, as a character with a speaking part. However, she didn't die or anything equally drastic in any of those stories, and of course they were written before anyone had ever suggested she was a murderer in her spare time.

2. The story I have heard, and tend to believe, is that in the mid-1990s, when someone at DC approved the idea of publishing Jeph Loeb's "The Long Halloween," it wasn't supposed to be "binding on the regular continuity." Like many of the story arcs they used to present in the (now cancelled) monthly title "Batman: Legends of the Dark Knight," this one was supposed to be "a Batman story happening in fuzzy continuity. It might just be set in its own little world, or it might reflect something which once happened to the Regular Continuity Batman." Yes, I know how confusing that sounds! (Fairness requires me to say that while I've seen that claim online, from people who sounded as if they knew what they were talking about, I've never seen it as a direct quote from Denny O'Neil, who was the chief Batman editor in the 1990s.)

This rumor that TLH was meant to stand on its own two feet, separate from the details of regular continuity, would certainly explain why it had Bruce Wayne and Selina dating in the early years of Bruce's career, whereas in 1993, in the "Knightfall" event, we saw Bruce and Selina meeting -- in their secret identities -- "for the very first time" in a story set in "modern times," after Bruce had already been Batman for nine or ten years, and Tim Drake was already well-established as the THIRD Robin.

3. TLH was so successful that Loeb and Sale did a sequel miniseries of the same length, "Dark Victory," which begins about a year after TLH ended, and dusts off some of the same characters from "The Long Halloween," including Alberto Falcone and his sister Sofia (and, of course, such regulars as Batman and Two-Face), but we never see Gilda in it. Once or twice, it is briefly mentioned that sometime in the year or so between the end of TLH and the start of DV, Gilda packed up her things and moved out of Gotham. Her friend Barbara Gordon (Jim Gordon's wife, not the adopted daughter who later became Batgirl) says she doesn't even have a forwarding address for Gilda. Apparently the poor woman wanted to make a clean break with the past.

4. You made me curious enough that I checked the Wikipedia entry on Gilda Dent just now. In that entry, it asserts that when Greg Rucka wrote a prose novelization of the year-long "No Man's Land" event that ran through the Bat-titles (basically during 1999, give or take a little bit), he inserted a brief comment to the effect that Gilda was already dead at the time of "No Man's Land," but apparently he didn't explain how, and apparently this idea has never been repeated in any regular Batman comic books to nail it down that the Official Version is: "Gilda is dead now."

5. So, to the best of my knowledge, there has never been a story that met all three of the following criteria:

a) It was written, and then published in a comic book, after "The Long Halloween" was published.

b) It featured Gilda Dent as a character with a speaking part, or at least told us something definite about what happened to her "ultimately" (such as dying, or remarrying, or anything else.)

c) It definitely referred to the events of "The Long Halloween" as having happened in the past, and made it clear that the Gilda it referred to was the same version of Gilda who voiced that Weird Monologue at the very end of TLH.

6. On the other hand, to indulge myself shamelessly by straying very far from anything that's "in continuity" for Gilda . . . last year I spent some time, just for fun, outlining some ideas for what I would do if, improbably, one of DC's editors suddenly came pounding on my door and saying, "Lorendiac! We want you to write a sequel miniseries to follow up on loose ends from the Loeb & Sale collaborations of 'The Long Halloween,' 'Dark Victory,' and 'When in Rome.'" I did a rough plot outline, wrote out a rough draft of a script for the first double-sized issue, and then posted the first 24 pages' worth on another forum here on CBR (and a few other places). The first 24 pages was introducing characters, stirring up a little trouble, and maneuvering a bunch of them into position at a costume party being hosted by Bruce Wayne on Halloween at stately Wayne Manor. Among other things, I had Gilda Dent returning to Gotham after many years' absence. I did this partly so she'd be a viable suspect when, once again, some mysterious person started committing murders on holidays. And so I could finally (in some later issue) have other characters become belatedly aware of her idea that she committed some of the early Holiday murders.

[HopeLantern]

Batman has got to be THE best character to write about in collected editions.