Is it fair?

[Bear]

We have a student here whose family is leaving the country, because they are afraid of being imprisoned and then forcibly exiled. They are actually moving to Spain, although they are originally from Argentina; because, apparently, Spain grants citizenship to anyone who has a hint of Spanish blood.

Yes, they were here illegally; but one of the children was actually born here after the came, also. A couple of years after.

Is it fair then, to essentially kick out an American citizen, because his parents and older brothers are illegal?

The parents both work, and as near as I can tell, they also pay taxes; though they lack voter rights, of course, that are obviously merited with citizenship.

[mgs]

I said no, for the child (which is a whole other question), but how in the hell do they pay taxes if they're illegal? O.o

[Bear]

I said no, for the child (which is a whole other question), but how in the hell do they pay taxes if they're illegal? O.o

Not sure...but they work for Cintas, the uniform company; and I've always assumed they would be reputable.

It doesn't seem an off the books kind of job.

[mgs]

uniform company? is it like a sweatshop?

[Bear]

uniform company? is it like a sweatshop?

I don't think so--they used to advertise on television, career opportunities, when they first started up a few years ago.

[StoneGold]

The uncaring answer would be they don't have to kick him out, get him enlisted in social services and he can spend his life bouncing between foster homes.

[K'Nort]

Well I can see changing the rule to "You're illegal until you have a kid and then it's fine" creating a LOT of unwanted, unaffordable children. Which would be pretty cruel.

Would also make the whole system an even bigger farce than it already is.

[DarkBlade]

One of my students has said that his mother only makes about $100 a week, and that she is gone all day at work every day, washing dishes.

Either he is confused on something, she is misinforming him on something, or she is being paid under the table at a terrible rate.

[mgs]

One of my students has said that his mother only makes about $100 a week, and that she is gone all day at work every day, washing dishes.

Either he is confused on something, she is misinforming him on something, or she is being paid under the table at a terrible rate.

maybe after for paying for all living costs, that's all she's left with. I can't imagine a dishwasher making that much anyways.

[Bear]

Well I can see changing the rule to "You're illegal until you have a kid and then it's fine" creating a LOT of unwanted, unaffordable children. Which would be pretty cruel.

Which is why I suggest sponsorship for these families would be the right thing to do. Meaning: if they could find at least one American citizen that would vouch for them, and take responsibility of helping them become legal hereafter, then they shouldn't be thrown away like this.

I talked to the priest who told me this (they don't speak english well), and I said that I would if they could; but they aren't allowed that privilege, as is.

Would also make the whole system an even bigger farce than it already is.

I agree. But I cannot help the sense of hypocrisy I feel. My own family came to this country after World War I, from Germany. They basically got on a boat and came here, without much trouble on the trip (as far as I know). But after they were allowed in, they were discouraged from speaking their own language of course--and to this day, I do not know a word of German, nor really did my father.

It seems wrong to have different standards, even in a post 9/11 world. Mexicans, or Latins are not terrorists. They believed the things that they were told about this country, as we all were told, but eventually grew up to realize were mostly untrue.

[mattx110]

Well I can see changing the rule to "You're illegal until you have a kid and then it's fine" creating a LOT of unwanted, unaffordable children. Which would be pretty cruel.

Would also make the whole system an even bigger farce than it already is.
Then I'd say "Screw it" and have em all naturalized. :D

[Shellhead]

One of my students has said that his mother only makes about $100 a week, and that she is gone all day at work every day, washing dishes.

Either he is confused on something, she is misinforming him on something, or she is being paid under the table at a terrible rate.

Not sure how old your student is, but kids often have a weak understanding of family finances. And when I was 8 years old, $100 seemed like a vast amount of money, and that I would be willing to do nearly anything for that kind of cash. One of my friends said, you mean like kill somebody, and I said I guess so.

[Generic Eric]

So are they being forcibly removed or are they just being paranoid?

Is it fair then, to essentially kick out an American citizen, because his parents and older brothers are illegal?
I don't think it would be practical to leave the kid/ American citizen behind. It would be a little crass on the Family's part.

[mgs]

I don't think it would be practical to leave the kid/ American citizen behind. It would be a little crass on the Family's part.

ah, but what if the 'kid' is old enough to take care of themself and possibly earn more than the whole family could elsewhere (as is reasonably possible) allowing the kid to have a better life and to send the family money that they desperately need?

[Generic Eric]

ah, but what if the 'kid' is old enough to take care of themself and possibly earn more than the whole family could elsewhere (as is reasonably possible) allowing the kid to have a better life and to send the family money that they desperately need?

This Citizen has the freedom of choice that he can do whatever he pleases with his time and money as long as its within his resident country and/ or states. Sending money made in America to other countries is a very common practice. Nobody that I'm aware of is frowning upon this practice or rallying for laws to stop it. As long as taxes are being paid and compaines keeping working regulations an pay up to the miminum standards regulated by law. Otherwise I have no beef with imagrants Legal or not.

[mgs]

This Citizen has the freedom of choice that he can do whatever he pleases with his time and money as long as its withi his resident country and/ or states.

oh, I know, I was just questioning the 'crass' part of your post, in saying that maybe it would be crass to take the new citizen away from all the States have to offer to drag them back into a life not so filled with potential. it would be lonely, but maybe best for the child to remain? :)

[Generic Eric]

oh, I know, I was just questioning the 'crass' part of your post, in saying that maybe it would be crass to take the new citizen away from all the States have to offer to drag them back into a life not so filled with potential. it would be lonely, but maybe best for the child to remain? :)

Opportunity is what you make of it. I was just thinking that putting a kid into foster care just so they could be part of the 'American Dream' was distasteful to me. Hell, Spain seems like a great place to live. It's not like that would be a like living in some back water .:cool:

[Zero Hunter]

I agree. But I cannot help the sense of hypocrisy I feel. My own family came to this country after World War I, from Germany. They basically got on a boat and came here, without much trouble on the trip (as far as I know). But after they were allowed in, they were discouraged from speaking their own language of course--and to this day, I do not know a word of German, nor really did my father.

.

The big difference is your family came her legaly. As far as the language thing goes I do think within a short time of coming to another country you should be at least trying to make that primary language of the country your in the one you use the most. Nothing bugs me more than someone who moves to another country and just doesn't even try to learn the primary language. I have seen people that have lived here 20 years and still can barely speak any english.

[K'Nort]

oh, I know, I was just questioning the 'crass' part of your post, in saying that maybe it would be crass to take the new citizen away from all the States have to offer to drag them back into a life not so filled with potential. it would be lonely, but maybe best for the child to remain? :)

He's in high school.

You really think the odds are that he'd be better off on his own? That would probably mean dropping out of school, for one thing. Hard to pay rent otherwise.

And it's not like Spain is a third world country.

[mgs]

He's in high school.

You really think the odds are that he'd be better off on his own? That would probably mean dropping out of school, for one thing. Hard to pay rent otherwise.

And it's not like Spain is a third world country.

oh, hells no. :) I didn't know those facts. Spain is a beautiful country from what I hear. And yes, even at that age, it would be probably best to remain with the family. I was honestly thinking more of our extremely poor neighbors to the south, Mexico and some other latin american countries.

[Asa]

I replied yes. We all have freedom of choice in this country. We choose work. We choose to have children, we choose to obey or dissobey the law. My parents did the right thing, Illegals do the wrong thing. I don't think that the child should suffer, But who ever said that living in spain is a bad country. If the mexicans want change in their country, comming here illegally doesn't help either. The parents are resposible. If the child is born with a USA passport they can come back when they are of age, and legally.

[K'Nort]

The parents aren't Mexican, by the way.

[Bear]

So are they being forcibly removed or are they just being paranoid?


I don't think it would be practical to leave the kid/ American citizen behind. It would be a little crass on the Family's part.

Well, they are be a little paranoid: because no one has said anything to them yet, as far as I know; but it has happened to others in their community, already.

[Bear]

The big difference is your family came her legaly. As far as the language thing goes I do think within a short time of coming to another country you should be at least trying to make that primary language of the country your in the one you use the most. Nothing bugs me more than someone who moves to another country and just doesn't even try to learn the primary language. I have seen people that have lived here 20 years and still can barely speak any english.

True, but it begs the question: why was it legal for them then, and not legal for the Argentinians now? It was illegal for them to have come even before 9/11.

[Bear]

He's in high school.

You really think the odds are that he'd be better off on his own? That would probably mean dropping out of school, for one thing. Hard to pay rent otherwise.

And it's not like Spain is a third world country.

Not to be annoying, I just want to clarify in case you aren't all just talking about a hypothetical person here. My student is about to enter high school, whereas his brother (the American born citizen) is a toddler or a little older.

[K'Nort]

True, but it begs the question: why was it legal for them then, and not legal for the Argentinians now? It was illegal for them to have come even before 9/11.

Not exactly.

It's not illegal for all Argentinians to come here now any more than it was legal for all Germans to come here then. There are always per-country quotas. And those numbers change over time for each country and for assorted reasons.

Illegal immigrants are people who didn't manage to win the quota lottery and decided to come anyway.

[Bear]

Not exactly.

It's not illegal for all Argentinians to come here now any more than it was legal for all Germans to come here then. There are always per-country quotas. And those numbers change over time for each country and for assorted reasons.

Illegal immigrants are people who didn't manage to win the quota lottery and decided to come anyway.

Well, we haven't always had quotas, if you think back far enough. Plus we had a much smaller country way back before even the waves of Irish came.

Who decides the quota? If based upon the census, then I'm guessing that the quota is going to shrink a lot more for Latins in the coming years; although a lot more will still be willing to try to come.

To paraphrase someone (I can't remember his name though) who said recently on NOW: "they are the Germanic tribesman invading the Roman Empire--not because they are evil--but just that they see all the things that the Romans have: that the Romans were tied to the land and had farms, and could make their own food, and had a better quality of life."

I don't think that I could send someone back that was already here; even if it is unfair to those who waited.

Perhaps the illegals are more desperate--so desperate, they could not even wait what seems only a little while to the rest of us.

[niall mc cann]

I voted "yes".

I don't want to be a hard ass about things, but I know that this reminds me of a quirk in our own legislation here in Ireland a few years back; Any child born on Irish soil automatically became an Irish citizen, and therefore legally entitled to live, work, seek welfare and public medical procedures anywhere in the EU; and very importantly, their parents could not then be deported.

Basically it led to people arriving in Ireland, getting pregnant with kids they neither wanted nor were really prepared to care for, but also pregnant women hopping on planes and heading for dublin leading to one or two frightening scenarios where women touched down in Dublin already in labour... that's not good for the women, the kids, or the societies they want to become part of.

My instinct on the specific case you mention is that if they're here, they're working and they're contributing members of society then the organs of the state should just "look the other way". However, enshrining some kind of legal right on their part can lead to the kind of messy situations we saw happen here a few years back.

[Bear]

Basically it led to people arriving in Ireland, getting pregnant with kids they neither wanted nor were really prepared to care for, but also pregnant women hopping on planes and heading for dublin leading to one or two frightening scenarios where women touched down in Dublin already in labour... that's not good for the women, the kids, or the societies they want to become part of.

Well, maybe that's kind of a compliment to your nation? That everyone wants to be Irish.

At any rate: the kids haven't exactly been here for just a little while--they are growing up here. Doesn't that, in heart at least, make you an American?

[niall mc cann]

Well, maybe that's kind of a compliment to your nation? That everyone wants to be Irish.

No, I don't think so. If Portugal had the same loophole, they'd have flown there.

At any rate: the kids haven't exactly been here for just a little while--they are growing up here. Doesn't that, in heart at least, make you an American?

I don't know. i think it would be better for them if they were American in their passports rather than their hearts. I think the most convincing argument for why they ought to stay is that they've been model citizens during their time in your country. In my experience, most countries have enough home-grown @-holes to make honest, contributing citizens precious and valuable commodities, which is why I think the best option would be just for the authorities to look the other way.

I just feel like focussing on the individual case in this regard isn't helpful; in the first place, there's an easy out - Spain isn't actually that bad a country to live in. It's not like they're being forced into some central american dictatorship, or out into the streets of Baghdad. In the second place, nothing happens in a vacuum; if you accomodate them, you're opening the door for the kinds of abuses I saw happen here, and those abuses potentially hurt many more people than your first action helped...

I mean, it's not nice for them, and of course it's sad to see things happen which hurt decent people. But those things aren't put in place maliciously; I don't think it's unfair as long as there's a good reason for things to be that way. And having seen the reverse side of it, I genuinely believe that there is.

[Dreadstar]

We have a student here whose family is leaving the country, because they are afraid of being imprisoned and then forcibly exiled. They are actually moving to Spain, although they are originally from Argentina; because, apparently, Spain grants citizenship to anyone who has a hint of Spanish blood.

Yes, they were here illegally; but one of the children was actually born here after the came, also. A couple of years after.

Is it fair then, to essentially kick out an American citizen, because his parents and older brothers are illegal?

The parents both work, and as near as I can tell, they also pay taxes; though they lack voter rights, of course, that are obviously merited with citizenship.

I only have one question here:

Do you know FOR A FACT that the youngest child was "kicked out?"

IOW, can you state, without error that the government was unwilling to accept his citizenry? Or was his leaving the country more akin to fait accompli, in that his parents took him with them?

I know it sounds like a quibble, but to me the entire argument re: the youngest child rests on that fulcrum. CBR has a member that has gone through somewhat similar circumstances.

[Just a Shadow]

This topic came up in a Canadian case awhile back.

In the end it was decided that in those circumstances the needs of the children (the woman had had 4 kids here) would not be protected if the mother was deported and that those needs outweighed our immigration laws thanks to the International Convention on the Rights of the Child (which America I suspect is not a signatory to). So they were allowed to stay. I strongly disagreed with this ruling.

If a person comes to the country illegally, then at times they should be kicked out. That's really all there is to it. I don't give two shits about how bad their home country is, because it isn't my fucking problem. You don't always get born in the country you want to be in and if you can't get in legally, suck it up and deal with it. I want to be a United States citizen and always have wanted that, but there is a chance that I will not be able to do it. If that's what happens, then I'll just have to deal with it because living in America is not a right that everyone on the planet is born with. It is a right only given to those who are either born in the country or to those who go through the naturalization process.

I don't actually mind a family like this being around because they are not any sort of drain on society. They work and seem to pay taxes, which is fine with me. However you can't create laws based on that sort of thing because then anyone who gets a job could stay. So I think in practice in a situation such as this, maybe they should get "lost in the paperwork." However should their situation change and they someday lose their jobs and are forced onto welfare or something, then they should be kicked out.

As for child that is born into a family that I feels should be kicked out, I think the decision is simple. The parents need to leave. The child can stay in foster care, but the rest of its family that are not citizens should leave. If the parents really want to keep the child, then the child goes too and can come back when he is of age to provide for himself.

[Paul McEnery]

In the current circumstances, I think they'd be crazy not to move to Spain:

1) Instant citizenry
2) The EU's doing better than the US
3) No language barrier
4) Socialized medicine, etc.

All in all, much less hassle.

[Alex L]

This topic came up in a Canadian case awhile back.

In the end it was decided that in those circumstances the needs of the children (the woman had had 4 kids here) would not be protected if the mother was deported and that those needs outweighed our immigration laws thanks to the International Convention on the Rights of the Child (which America I suspect is not a signatory to). So they were allowed to stay. I strongly disagreed with this ruling.

If a person comes to the country illegally, then at times they should be kicked out. That's really all there is to it. I don't give two shits about how bad their home country is, because it isn't my fucking problem. You don't always get born in the country you want to be in and if you can't get in legally, suck it up and deal with it. I want to be a United States citizen and always have wanted that, but there is a chance that I will not be able to do it. If that's what happens, then I'll just have to deal with it because living in America is not a right that everyone on the planet is born with. It is a right only given to those who are either born in the country or to those who go through the naturalization process.

I don't actually mind a family like this being around because they are not any sort of drain on society. They work and seem to pay taxes, which is fine with me. However you can't create laws based on that sort of thing because then anyone who gets a job could stay. So I think in practice in a situation such as this, maybe they should get "lost in the paperwork." However should their situation change and they someday lose their jobs and are forced onto welfare or something, then they should be kicked out.

As for child that is born into a family that I feels should be kicked out, I think the decision is simple. The parents need to leave. The child can stay in foster care, but the rest of its family that are not citizens should leave. If the parents really want to keep the child, then the child goes too and can come back when he is of age to provide for himself.

So we keep them only as long as they provide utility, and boot them the second they show a hint of not being productive worker bees?

Damn, that's cold.

I do agree with you, though, in that "the parents have to leave. Whether they want to bring their kid or not, is up to them."

[elldot21]

His parents are here illegally, while others are here legally. I'm not sure how your question is even a question. :confused:

That he has to leave is the fault of his parents, not mine yours or the governments. If anything, he should count himself fortunate to have US citizenship meaning he can live here in the future.