View Full Version : Is Batman: The Cult considered canon?
Chade_Azunther
02-22-2008, 05:55 PM
I just finished reading, personally I didn't really care for it much, and was just wondering if this was considered canon. I mean are any of the events mentioned afterwards in the books? Thanks!
caboose
02-22-2008, 07:52 PM
Why did you not like The Cult if I may ask?
The artwork is good and it is a good Jason Todd story. Which if you believe this board, is impossible.
BrikHed21
02-22-2008, 08:14 PM
Why did you not like The Cult if I may ask?
The artwork is good and it is a good Jason Todd story. Which if you believe this board, is impossible.
Not impossible but HIGHLY improbable.
It was referened in Death in the Family which was also written by Jim Starlin, but I think that was it. I remember a lot of interviews around the time of Knightfall saying that Bane was the first enemy of Batman to "break him". I can't remember whether or not the Deacon was mentioned specifically in these interviews (I recall that he was but it's been 15 years) but I believe that the implication at the time was "Because it hurts the story to have Bane not be the first person to break Batman, any previous story that had him defeated by an enemy is no longer canonical").
WorstThingUS
02-22-2008, 10:59 PM
Why did you not like The Cult if I may ask?
The artwork is good and it is a good Jason Todd story. Which if you believe this board, is impossible.
Last I heard, Jason Todd took down Mongul in Alan Moore's "For The Man Who Has Everything."
Chade_Azunther
02-22-2008, 11:03 PM
Why did you not like The Cult if I may ask?
The artwork is good and it is a good Jason Todd story. Which if you believe this board, is impossible.
I guess one of my main gripes is it reads too much like a DKR homage/rip-off yet watered down. Don't get me wrong I love DKR but the allusions to it in this just comes across to me as lazy and uninventive, not as "cool" and "neat" because it had some similar things. Having the "bat-tank", commentary panels of news reports, and a fight with the Deacon/Mutant leader in front of his followers just gave me the feeling like "hey I've seen this before and it was done better". Though I'm not saying that Batman can't ever fight Two-Face or whoever in front of his minions because it was done in DKR, thats not my point this just felt like bad imitation. And generally the story just read so plain and blah. Second, Deacon Blackfire was very one dimensional, I wished he was fleshed out more and not so typical. And, unless I missed it, I wished Starlin would've given a reason as to why Blackfire was over 100 yrs old. Thirdly, half of Gotham's population must be morons to be duped by him. I mean ok you might agree that he and his followers are doing good by murdering all the drug dealers, pimps, petty criminals and so on but when city officials start to mysteriously be killed off also I think those citizens could connect-the-dots and see The Deacon is behind it and get the hell out of dodge with the other half. Forth, Batman. Using missiles and "causing property damage" no one can tell me fatalities didn't occur from that. Oh and just watching and hearing that poor lady die slowly at the hands of the homeless...the homeless. I mean he didn't even try. I know that Batman can't and hasn't saved every one whether it not being possible, he tries but doesn't succeed, or he was just too late...but he didn't even try this time because it "would be suicide". He has put his life in so much harms way why not this time? Because if he died trying to save this one lady's life then the Deacon would win and Gotham city would fall? I mean if he is sacrificing her life to save many lives isn't that a common conundrum that all superheroes (d.c.) face, including himself, and is frowned upon? I just don't get that..maybe that should be my top gripe. Well I'll stop at that one and I do realize that opinions differ greatly. Also Caboose you named the two positives about this book I am so glad to have a graphic novel with Jason in it when he isn't dying or being resurrected or flashback sequences and I did like the artwork.
Chade_Azunther
02-22-2008, 11:20 PM
It was referened in Death in the Family which was also written by Jim Starlin, but I think that was it. I remember a lot of interviews around the time of Knightfall saying that Bane was the first enemy of Batman to "break him". I can't remember whether or not the Deacon was mentioned specifically in these interviews (I recall that he was but it's been 15 years) but I believe that the implication at the time was "Because it hurts the story to have Bane not be the first person to break Batman, any previous story that had him defeated by an enemy is no longer canonical").
Thanx Chad! I bought Death in the Family also, trying to get all the Bat graphic novels and put them in chronological order, and was planning on reading it next. As I said i don't really like The Cult but if it is mentioned in Death in the Family and d.c. is still reprinting it I guess technically it still is canon but I do prefer Bane being the one who "broke" Batman, plus he is more fleshed out and is still occasionally a thorn in the side of the Dark Knight. Just wondering are there any Bat-books that are canon but you guys just can't accept?
the goddamn batman
02-22-2008, 11:25 PM
Just wondering are there any Bat-books that are canon but you guys just can't accept?
Most of them. Especially A Death in the Family. I accept that Jason was killed by The Joker... just not that it happened like that.;)
God, what a terrible story.
rwe1138
02-23-2008, 04:49 PM
Last I heard, Jason Todd took down Mongul in Alan Moore's "For The Man Who Has Everything."
That's cheating. Alan Moore could make even a mort like the Rainbow Raider interesting.
Scarlet Pimpernel
02-24-2008, 01:27 AM
I wouldn't call it "canon" either, and there were a lot of LODK technique rip-offs. I believe it was referenced in a JLA story at the time (the Bwa Ha Ha era of the JLA).
But Wrightson's art was worth it. I loved the 2-page spread at the end of Book 2, I think, where Robin finds Batman chained underground with all the dead bodies around. Looked like something from one of those old Eerie or Creepy mags.
dancj
02-25-2008, 05:25 AM
I thought that The Cult was the only decent Batman story that Jim Starlin ever wrote
Chade_Azunther
02-25-2008, 08:38 AM
Well I just finished a Death in the Family and...ugh :( not what I was expecting. But yeah, the only mention of The Cult was Bats saying he wasn't up to par from his encounter with Deacon Blackfire so I guess that there is enough for it to be canon, officially. In my mind though its just poor and not too significant so I can politely sweep it under the rug, the same with a Death in the Family. Like the goddamn batman said, lol, Jason was killied by the Joker just not like that. Hey it works in my brain!
I thought that The Cult was the only decent Batman story that Jim Starlin ever wrote
Yeah i've read a lot of good things about people really liking The Cult but for me it just didn't do it. I mean honestly I have never read anything by Starlin before it but if the rest of his writing is like The Cult and a Death in the Family then I don't know how good Ten Nights of the Beast will turn out, yeah i'm planning on getting that too cause i'm a sucker. Just wondering but why such fondness for The Cult?
Kirayoshi
02-25-2008, 07:30 PM
I recall a storyline in Justice League International(Giffen/DeMatteis) where Blue Beetle was revealed to having been brainwashed by Queen Bee, and Max Lord(pre-Infinite Crisis retcon) called in Amanda Waller to deprogram him. When Batman claimed that they didn't need her, Amanda asked him, "So, how'd things work out with Reverend Blackthorne?"
Chade_Azunther
02-25-2008, 07:47 PM
I recall a storyline in Justice League International(Giffen/DeMatteis) where Blue Beetle was revealed to having been brainwashed by Queen Bee, and Max Lord(pre-Infinite Crisis retcon) called in Amanda Waller to deprogram him. When Batman claimed that they didn't need her, Amanda asked him, "So, how'd things work out with Reverend Blackthorne?"
Yep seems your right Kirayoshi. I googled it and it was in Justice League America 27, the one with the Exorcist cover.
I'm surprised to hear that this story isn't more popular - I think of Starlin as second only to Alan Grant when it comes to Batman writers of the past 25 years and feel that next to 10 Nights of the Beast, The Cult is his best Batman work. Oh, well.
About the art - I remember hearing that Wrightson had actually damaged his hand around the time he drew this and had to either use his opposite hand or his injured hand to do the artwork.
Comic book Urban Legends recently confirmed that Starlin and Wrightson did a sequel to The Cult which wasn't picked up by DC. Rather than drop the story they published it at Marvel as a Punisher story.
http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2007/06/28/comic-book-urban-legends-revealed-109/
dancj
02-26-2008, 05:50 AM
don't know how good Ten Nights of the Beast will turn out, yeah i'm planning on getting that too cause i'm a sucker.
Don't. It's not very good.
Just wondering but why such fondness for The Cult?
TBH, I couldn't give a full analysis. It's a long time since I've read it and while it wasn't anything special I do remember enjoying it.
I loved this story very much. I consider it to be the condensed version of 'No Man's Land'. In that it covers the decent of a city into anarchy and Batman saving it. I thought that it was amazing. I volunteered at a con years ago in order for Starlin to sign my copy.
Jim Starlin, Greg Rucka and now Grant Morrison are my all time favourite Batman writers.
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