Ultimates 3.3 (Spoilers)

[Xplicit Content]

I guess it's safe to post this now.

Issue starts off with the preview pages we've all seen. Enter Flashback. Wolverine talks about how he went to the Balkans in search of the "Witch of Wundagore" after the war. This witch was Magda, and Wolverine was hoping that Magda would help him find a way to die. What Wolverine ended up getting is laid. This is what Wolverine meant when he said Wanda could have been his daughter. Magneto barges in right when Wolverine nuts, and banishes Wolvie back into the blizzardy Balkan wilderness.

Wolvie then speaks of his time with the Brotherhood, stating that Magneto either didn't recognize him, or chose not to acknowledge who he was. Wolvie then goes on to talk about Wanda, and how she wore her old costume in homage to her mother. The flashback continues with a panel where Magneto instructs Wolvie to kill Pietro because Pietro is pathetic and weak. Wolvie states that he and Xavier hypothesized that Pietro was such a disappointment to Mags because he was a reminder that he had been with a human...and it didn't help that Pietro looked so much like him, so "you can only imagine what looking at Wanda every day was like for him," with Wanda looking exactly like Magda.

Wolvie attacks Pietro, looking only to scare Pietro enough to make him bail out on the Brotherhood. Wanda had other ideas. She protected Pietro by using her powers to create dinosaurs. Yes, that is the origin of the Ultimate Savage Land -- Wanda conjured up the dinosaurs, and the story of Magneto's experiments was created as a cover-up. Thing is, Wanda didn't intend to call up dinosaurs, and the sheer amount of uncontrollable power she had scared her...Pietro vows to protect her, as the only one who knew Wanda's true potential..."spurned by his father, desperate for his mother, Pietro found in Wanda a kind of love."

End flashback. Finger pointing begins. Wolvie implicates Hawkeye because of Hawkeye's feelings on "muties" and his excellent aim. Cap breaks up the squad into 2 teams...one team stays home, the other goes after Magneto. Caps puts himself on the away team, and leaves "Black Panther" home. Janet overrules him, and makes her own away team. Janet leaves Cap at home and sends BP...hmm, wonder what would have happened had she put them both on the away team?

Team starts to board ship, including BP. Janet asks BP where Cap is, and BP points. Upon seeing BP, Wolvie asks "That's Black Panther?" Wolvie later approaches BP and tells him he'll keep BP's secret, but he has no idea what he thinks he's doing and that he better not get anybody killed. Back to Janet at HQ. Tony lands and informs Janet that the bullet that killed Wanda was made by Stark Inc. Janet is shocked and asks Tony who would do this..."Tony" then removes his face plate to reveal an AI robot who zaps Janet. Issue ends with the introduction of Ultimate Ka-Zar and Shanna.

-------------------------------------------------

Well, it's been a bumpy ride, but the finish line is approaching. Characterization being as...spotty(?) as it has been, I've been sticking it out because I'm curious to see where this is all going **waiting for the "nowhere" jokes**. This issue was definitely the best of the 3. I liked the idea that Wanda had used her powers to create/summon the dinosaurs of the Savage Land, and this also falls in line with what happened in Ultimate Power. I think Fury will end up being the mastermind behind her death. Even though Wolvie implicated Hawkeye, he still raised some red flags having to due with Fury's motivation for including 2 mutant terrorists on his team, and no answers were given as to why. I'm sure there's going to be more reveals though, like maybe some inside help -- Stark seems to be heavily implicated at this point.

And it appears more and more evident that Black Panther will end up being Cap (Unless Loeb is trying to bait people into thinking that way). And I don't like that idea at all...pending the reasoning behind it. And I'm still lost when it comes to Venom and how he fits into this.

[carabas]

I guess it's safe to post this now.

[i]Issue starts off with the preview pages we've all seen. Enter Flashback. Wolverine talks about how he went to the Balkans in search of the "Witch of Wundagore" after the war. This witch was Magda, and Wolverine was hoping that Magda would help him find a way to die. What Wolverine ended up getting is laid. This is what Wolverine meant when he said Wanda could have been his daughter.Does it mention anywhere how exactly it is that he remembers all of this when it was previously established that heis pre-Weapon X memory was turned into mental confetti?

Wanda conjured up the dinosaurs, and the story of Magneto's experiments was created as a cover-up. Thing is, Wanda didn't intend to call up dinosaurs, and the sheer amount of uncontrollable power she had scared her...Pietro vows to protect her, as the only one who knew Wanda's true potential...Ah. Ultimate House Of Meh then: no more plotting.

Also, how is it that it's only Pïetro who is awara of her powers? Magneto somehow missed all the great big lizards on his lawn?

[Slyfer]

I am actually looking forward to this issue :) sounds good

[RodeoWearden]

pfffft! ~bursts out laughing~

I love it! Its so rediculous its awesome. I'm picking up this issue right after work today.

[Tobias March]

The whole storyline seems to have this 'incest is best' thing going for it. Never knew Loeb was a Manson fan.

[Mothmonsterman]

Issue ends with the introduction of Ultimate Ka-Zar and Shanna.

Finally.

I was beginning to worry we'd never see them.

[Vapour Trail]

Doesn't make any sense. Wolverine doesn't need a witch to help him die.

I'm guessing if he jumped in a pool of molten steel,, he'd melt away and there'd be nothing left of him to regenerate. Problem solved. He's not immortal, he just has a healing ability.

[Beast]

Maybe Scarlet Witch is Wolverine's daughter. And Quicksilver is Magneto's. Stranger things have happened, especially if they made love to Magda roughly around the same time. :p

As for the comment about Logan jumping into a pool of molten steel, that's pretty silly. Maybe Wolverine went to Magda because he doesn't want to commit suicide. He just wants a normal lifespan and then to die like a normal man. So went to her looking for a way to turn off his healing factor.

Sounds like a good issue. I guess Black Panther really is Captain America. At least that's the way it looks right now. And the reveal of one of the robots inside the Iron Man armor really does point to the fact that it's going to be Ultimate Ultron/Vision behind all of this. He probably killed Scarlet Witch because he flirting wasn't really serious. And then tried to murder Pym because that's what Ultron does. ;)

[Superbeast]

Doesn't make any sense. Wolverine doesn't need a witch to help him die.

I'm guessing if he jumped in a pool of molten steel,, he'd melt away and there'd be nothing left of him to regenerate. Problem solved. He's not immortal, he just has a healing ability.

Or just go skinnydipping in a volcano.

So let's get this straight... Wolverine somehow has detailed memories of his affair with Magda even though it's been stated only SHIELD and Cap have any real details on his life before Weapon X.

Magneto had no problem with the dude who cuckolded him working with him for years. This is the same Magneto who severed Xavier's spine to teach him a lesson for running away.

Magneto, who personally blew his son's kneecaps off while Wanda watched because they turned their backs on The Brotherhood, apparently wanted his son dead years ago but was willing to let someone else do the job.

Wanda, rather than turning Wolverine into an adamantium paperweight or creating a forcefield around Pietro, created dinosaurs out of nowhere to protect her brother. Because when someone needs protecting, the first thing that springs to mind is a personal security team made up of T-Rexes.

Pietro decided to bang his sister because daddy didn't love him and he missed his mom. Perfect reasoning to commit incest right there.

So at what point was Tony switched with a robot duplicate? Or is that yet another mystery in this Whodunnit story?

[Orbitron]

I think Loeb needs a new job! This book should not be titled "Ultimates"!Whether you liked Millar's run or not, it was just on a completely different scale than this book.

What really irks me about this issue was Loeb writing that Pietro was saving the world from Wanda by keeping her powers in check. Anyone watch Heroes this season???

Madureira is really good, though, IMO.

[carabas]

So at what point was Tony switched with a robot duplicate?Not just Tony, but the entire cast, including the Brotherhood. And pretty bad copies at that.

[Supreme_Emerpus]

Damn this sux! The Ultimates broke so much new ground and Loeb seems to be feeding off of old ground too much. Hypnosis is already being employed to make previous storylines plausible for the new. Go back to TV or Batman Loeb! But leave Joe Mad on your way out.

[Rattlehead]

Man, this just keeps getting worse. I actually had to fight back fits of laughter just reading the recap of this. It all just sounds so, well, silly. It's like Jeph is trying to make the most ridiculous thing he possibly could. I can understand going in a different direction that Millar took with the book, but this just sounds like Loeb is really forcing everything here. It's a shame they couldn't get Tim Sale to draw this, as he seems to be the only guy who can get a decent story out of Jeph Loeb. I guess Tim's the only guy to ever stand up and say no Jeph, that's a downright terrible idea, do this instead.

[Mothmonsterman]

Go back to TV or Batman Loeb! But leave Joe Mad on your way out.

He can take Joe Mad with him. I'd prefer an artist who can tell a story visually.

[TheAmazingSpidey]

...Meh.













Word limit!

[Superbeast]

He can take Joe Mad with him. I'd prefer an artist who can tell a story visually.

But who else can draw hair to look like knives? Bachalo? Ha, only if you want someone who draws Ultimate characters like they've been portrayed before.

Are we actually going to find out anything about Cap's new life or Valkyrie's selection to join the Ultimates anytime soon or will we get a "4 months ago" story in a year's time?

[Mothmonsterman]

Are we actually going to find out anything about Cap's new life or Valkyrie's selection to join the Ultimates anytime soon or will we get a "4 months ago" story in a year's time?

Time has become fluid in Loeb's Ultimates, you understand. When Wolverine appeared at the end of issue 2, it was "two seconds ago." The first page of issue 3, though, in spite of being an immediate continuation of the prior scene, was "last night." Don't you see? Time is going forward and backward at random intervals! It's genius! What an intriguing mystery! All will be explained!

[Superbeast]

Time has become fluid in Loeb's Ultimates, you understand. When Wolverine appeared at the end of issue 2, it was "two seconds ago." The first page of issue 3, though, in spite of being an immediate continuation of the prior scene, was "last night." Don't you see? Time is going forward and backward at random intervals! It's genius! What an intriguing mystery! All will be explained!

Maybe they were so surprised by Wolverine's arrival they stood in stunned silence for several hours, admiring the light glinting off his claws. Could have instead been an uncomfortable silence as Wolverine caught a sniff of someone cutting the cheese but no one wanted to admit they squeezed it out.

Actually, how the Hell did Black Panther get back to the mansion? One minute Hawkeye is searching for him, popping shots off at Spider-Man and leaving him hanging for any bum to come along and unmask him, next thing we know Hawkeye is back at the house sans Black Panther as Wolverine turns up... did he just dust himself off, walk home and sneak in the back door after Hawkeye got tired of looking for him?

[Agent_Torpor]

Actually, how the Hell did Black Panther get back to the mansion? One minute Hawkeye is searching for him, popping shots off at Spider-Man and leaving him hanging for any bum to come along and unmask him, next thing we know Hawkeye is back at the house sans Black Panther as Wolverine turns up... did he just dust himself off, walk home and sneak in the back door after Hawkeye got tired of looking for him?

He was LOEB-erized!

[Mothmonsterman]

Actually, how the Hell did Black Panther get back to the mansion? One minute Hawkeye is searching for him, popping shots off at Spider-Man and leaving him hanging for any bum to come along and unmask him, next thing we know Hawkeye is back at the house sans Black Panther as Wolverine turns up... did he just dust himself off, walk home and sneak in the back door after Hawkeye got tired of looking for him?

What a mystery! I know I'm intrigued.

[Brian M.]

I liked it. Great art, good dialogue. Interesting twist. Looks fun. Also the bit with Wolverine and BP makes me wonder...

[Mothmonsterman]

I liked it.

Your first mistake.

[Superbeast]

I liked it. Great art, good dialogue. Interesting twist. Looks fun. Also the bit with Wolverine and BP makes me wonder...

Please tell me you don't actually consider the dialogue to be consistent with the characters. As for the art, it seems since returning to comics Joe Madureira has decided unless the background can be done in a really cool way with glowing accents or nifty details, a bunch of speedlines and starbursts will do instead. I think maybe that's the reason he's managed to meet the deadlines. He's literally doing half the work he should be.

I am still wondering how Ultimate Iron Man suddenly got his 1998 616 armour. There are a lot of mysteries in this series, but I don't think the majority are going to be answered.

[Stony]

Your first mistake.

Ok, stop right there
If you don't like it, fine, then tell us why. But let others like what they want.

Any more comments like this will be deleted

[Brian M.]

Your first mistake.

No my first mistake was kissing Elaine Wasmus in 6th grade during Gym Class...

Please tell me you don't actually consider the dialogue to be consistent with the characters. As for the art, it seems since returning to comics Joe Madureira has decided unless the background can be done in a really cool way with glowing accents or nifty details, a bunch of speedlines and starbursts will do instead. I think maybe that's the reason he's managed to meet the deadlines. He's literally doing half the work he should be.

I am still wondering how Ultimate Iron Man suddenly got his 1998 616 armour. There are a lot of mysteries in this series, but I don't think the majority are going to be answered.

Well the characters have changed alot since the Ultimates 2...so I think they are acting/talking just fine considering all the stuff that has changed.

But if you wanna get picky, I didn't say it was consistent with the characters, I said it was good dialogue.

The twists w/ Wolverine being her daddy, Iron Man's armor being something else...still don't know if Tony is out there still w/ Blob and that thing just had good timing or what, but it's interesting.

As for the art, I didn't mind the lack of backgrounds really.

[Blader5489]

Actually, how the Hell did Black Panther get back to the mansion? One minute Hawkeye is searching for him, popping shots off at Spider-Man and leaving him hanging for any bum to come along and unmask him, next thing we know Hawkeye is back at the house sans Black Panther as Wolverine turns up... did he just dust himself off, walk home and sneak in the back door after Hawkeye got tired of looking for him?

HE'S CAP. That's how.

[Brian M.]

HE'S CAP. That's how.

That actually is kinda making sense now.

[Beast]

No my first mistake was kissing Elaine Wasmus in 6th grade during Gym Class...
We agree. It was the first disasterous step on the road to heterosexuality. :p

[OoNebsoO]

Flat out terrible.

[Brian M.]

We agree. It was the first disasterous step on the road to heterosexuality. :p

No, only becuase it got me liking her and then in 8th grade when she developed and wore all those low cut shirts in Science class that didn't help. Broke me heart by saying no to me in 9th grade. Sad day it was.

[Superbeast]

HE'S CAP. That's how.

So Cap's other life involves him pretending to be yet another costumed hero? Didn't Moon Knight do that already?

[bbmakdaddycomics]

Ok, stop right there
If you don't like it, fine, then tell us why. But let others like what they want.

Any more comments like this will be deleted

i agree if they like the book they like the book i know like it, and i rarely read ultimates as i did with pt 3

[Toboe]

Sounds extremely hilarious... but I just can't take it seriously. The Scarlet Witch creating dinosaurs, Wolverine scoring with Magda, and the Black Panther apparently turning out to be Captain America... it all sounds ridiculous, I'll just have to read it to believe it.

[Joe Franklin]

This book has the best art I have seen in a comic book in the last 10 years. The Mad man is a master comic book craftsman.:cool:

I don't care how goofy the words are, I can look at Madureira's art for hours at a time and be amazed.

[Nate Palm]

I really think the Cap/Panther thing is a feint. Plus why would Wolverine say he hopes Panther doesn't get someone killed. Cap would be just as capable as Cap or Panther.

Oh, why is Wasp the leader? Honestly there has to be something more going on. I'm no fan of Loeb, not by a longshot, but even he has to be better than this. I'm going chalk it up to Scarlet Witch doing some crazy space/time/reality thing and making everything mixed-up different.

[ComicBookGuyAndy]

I somewhat enjoyed the first two issues.. but this was terrible although I did enjoy the art.

Pros:

Interested in this Black Panther mystery
Art

Cons:

Just about everything else
Lazy story telling (Magneto just happens to not care to mention or forgets Logan...)

still I'll be back for next issue.

[Green05]

Even in the Ult. U., Tony Stark can't seem to get a break from A.I. in his armor. lol. I am really looking forward to the next issue. I'm looking at two suspects at the moment.

[Mothmonsterman]

But if you wanna get picky, I didn't say it was consistent with the characters, I said it was good dialogue.

But it's actually neither. It is terribly crafted dialogue even ignoring that he's incapable of capturing subtleties of voice in existing characters.

[Brian M.]

But it's actually neither. It is terribly crafted dialogue even ignoring that he's incapable of capturing subtleties of voice in existing characters.

I disagree. I like the change in Hawkeye and it's a pretty understandable change. Cap has always been old fashioned and this is just Loeb's way of doing it. Thor...I buy the explanation he gave us. He no longer has to keep up appearances. Wasp, I never got what her voice was to begin with so I don't see any difference in hers. His Wolverine is actually spot on, first time I've heard the "correct" voice for him since Millar/Bendis got off Ult. X-Men.

So I really see no problem what so ever.

[Dorsai]

Although this isn't quite rising to the same standard set by Ultimates and Ultimates 2, I'm still curious to see where this leads. However, I'm getting more and more disappointed with some of the characterizations.

Prior to reading Ultimates, I had soured on Hawkeye. But by the end of Ultimates 2, I was pretty interested in the character. I don't quite like the change in Ultimaes 3. If Ultimate Hawkeye died next issue, I wouldn't lose any sleep.

Great googly moogly! What is up with Thor? He seemed like such a complex character previously. I can't help but view him as just another "viking dude that goes a-wenching". He seems like such a caricature.

I'll have to disagree with those that believe Cap is Black Panther. Wolverine obviously knows who it is but the "I sure as hell hope you don't get somebody killed." line makes me believe it is someone that normally doesn't run around in a costume. Cap -- whatever colors he may be wearing -- wouldn't concern Wolverine. If Panther didn't have such a large build, I would still point to Nick Fury.

[Mothmonsterman]

This book has the best art I have seen in a comic book in the last 10 years. The Mad man is a master comic book craftsman.:cool:


Sure, if you're impressed by a series of marginally interconnected pinups that barely tell a story.

Some of us have more sophisticated taste, though.

[stillanerd]

What I'm wondering is that if Ultimate Black Panther IS Cap, doesn't that strike anyone the least bit odd that Loeb would make what was once a black African king of an wealthy African nation into a jingoistic white guy from World War II?

And as for Wolverine getting hot and heavy with Magneto's woman...I suppose this is how Loeb gets out of the whole incest theme with Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch, in that it can always be revealed that Pietro and Wanda are not twins but half-siblings, in that Pietro was born first between Magneto and Magda, and Wanda was the child of Logan and Magda. Then again, it's still technically results in sex between brother and sister. (*vomits*)

[jennyallyson]

He can take Joe Mad with him. I'd prefer an artist who can tell a story visually.

Another poster suggested Tim Sale. He may be right in saying that Sale drives, makes, or beats him into better stories than this drivel:p

[Superbeast]

I disagree. I like the change in Hawkeye and it's a pretty understandable change. Cap has always been old fashioned and this is just Loeb's way of doing it. Thor...I buy the explanation he gave us. He no longer has to keep up appearances. Wasp, I never got what her voice was to begin with so I don't see any difference in hers. His Wolverine is actually spot on, first time I've heard the "correct" voice for him since Millar/Bendis got off Ult. X-Men.

So I really see no problem what so ever.

But Ultimate Wolverine antagonises Hawkeye and it sets him off... even though Wolverine got the number of his kids wrong. Hawkeye doesn't even pick him up on it and go "I had three kids, you asshole!" and then flip out because of his total disregard to even get his facts straight. Did Hawkeye forget his other kid got murdered too?

Thor is a Norse God, surely he'd speak a Scandinavian language rather than with Victorian English accent if his roots are showing through. They set up the idea he was meant to be from Norway in the second volume so why isn't he using Norwegian words and proclamations a la 616 Nightcrawler's German "Mein Gott"?

[Brian M.]

It is your right as a free man to be as wrong as you'd like.

Thanks for letting me know my rights.

No it isn't. It's practically designed to insult the intelligence of any reader who has a shred to begin with.

No it doesn't. He's lost his whole family, fought off an invasion force from the American shores, he's been through a whole hell of a lot. Being over taken by depression and some kind death wish isn't really outta place. People who suffer great tradegy and trama don't usually go back to acting the way they did before hand. Look at war vets.

And "Loeb's way of doing it" happens to be the caricature version of Cap. It's garbage. Indefensible garbage on every level.

Actually it's not. He's not under the government heel anymore, there really is no PRESSING National Security emergency, no reason to step up be a hero yet. He's old fashioned, big deal. I don't really see too much of a departure since we haven't really had that much Cap dialogue. It's not Millar's Cap, but it really isn't that drastic of a difference.

Cool.

I don't.

It is a patently absurd rationalization made to explain the unacceptable degradation of a character.

Really? I didn't think it was that bad of an explanation, it wasn't perfect, I'd have prefered Millar's Thor...but then Millar's not writing Thor anymore so I take it for what it is.

[Brian M.]

But Ultimate Wolverine antagonises Hawkeye and it sets him off... even though Wolverine got the number of his kids wrong. Hawkeye doesn't even pick him up on it and go "I had three kids, you asshole!" and then flip out because of his total disregard to even get his facts straight. Did Hawkeye forget his other kid got murdered too?

It was a mistake by Loeb. Big deal. I don't care. It was a cool scene.

Thor is a Norse God, surely he'd speak a Scandinavian language rather than with Victorian English accent if his roots are showing through. They set up the idea he was meant to be from Norway in the second volume so why isn't he using Norwegian words and proclamations a la 616 Nightcrawler's German "Mein Gott"?

Don't know. Since he's not from Norway and he's from Asgard I'd have to wait until the Ultimate Atlas Handbook comes out and gives me the offical language of Asgardians in the Ultimate Universe.

[Superbeast]

It was a mistake by Loeb. Big deal. I don't care. It was a cool scene.

Don't know. Since he's not from Norway and he's from Asgard I'd have to wait until the Ultimate Atlas Handbook comes out and gives me the offical language of Asgardians in the Ultimate Universe.

It's ignoring continuity. If you are taking on a project like this with only a couple of volumes to read through, it's not a huge undertaking to get your facts and continuity in line before you add to the series. Also keep in mind the third volume was pushed back for a while because of Loeb's TV work, surely he could have read some back issues since the Writer's Strike started and corrected the mistake he submitted the script. Even if he didn't, they have editors and proof readers who should have caught the mistake even if Loeb made it in the first place. The Ultimate Universe does not have decades of material behind it to research and fact check.

He might be from Asgard but the Norse Gods were worshipped by Scandinavian countries. It'd make more sense for him to use a variation of one of their languages or dialects than it does for him to speak like a budget version of Hamlet. I mean, there is a few to choose from including Danish, Swedish, Norwegian, Icelandic and Faroese. They could have even mixed it up and had him use different languages at different moments since as a God he'd have received prayers and tributes in all of them.

[Brian M.]

It's ignoring continuity. If you are taking on a project like this with only a couple of volumes to read through, it's not a huge undertaking to get your facts and continuity in line before you add to the series. Also keep in mind the third volume was pushed back for a while because of Loeb's TV work, surely he could have read some back issues since the Writer's Strike started and corrected the mistake he submitted the script. Even if he didn't, they have editors and proof readers who should have caught the mistake even if Loeb made it in the first place. The Ultimate Universe does not have decades of material behind it to research and fact check.

He might be from Asgard but the Norse Gods were worshipped by Scandinavian countries. It'd make more sense for him to use a variation of one of their languages or dialects than it does for him to speak like a budget version of Hamlet. I mean, there is a few to choose from including Danish, Swedish, Norwegian, Icelandic and Faroese. They could have even mixed it up and had him use different languages at different moments since as a God he'd have received prayers and tributes in all of them.

I'm not saying the F-up by Loeb wasn't annoying, but it didn't take anyway any enjoyment I got from the scene. Still thought it was a great comeback. Hilarious even.

As for the language of Thor...I just really don't see it as a big deal either. I bought the explanation, I move on.

[Superbeast]

I'm not saying the F-up by Loeb wasn't annoying, but it didn't take anyway any enjoyment I got from the scene. Still thought it was a great comeback. Hilarious even.

As for the language of Thor...I just really don't see it as a big deal either. I bought the explanation, I move on.
It's the equivalent of someone forgetting to set the joke up right but expecting a laugh because of the punchline. The set up is what makes the joke 90% of the time. The set up is the entire basis of The Arisocrats joke. The punchline is largely irrelevant in comparison. It's like doing a "yo mama" joke only for the person to say "My mother passed away five years ago". if they'd played up Wolvie's insensitivity by having Hawkeye get mad he completely forgot his other child, that would have made sense, but it seems Hawkeye is borderline suicidal over the deaths of his family even though he doesn't care how many of his kids died.

But the explanation doesn't make any logical sense. "I don't care if I'm crazy, I'm going to speak like Hamlet". Hey, I don't care if people think I'm crazy but I'm not going to suddenly start talking like I'm from New York just to do so. If he really didn't care if people thought he was crazy he'd act like Starman in the JSA comics or spout random non sequiturs out of nowhere.

"Thor, we need your help. NOW!"
"And the cow says moo Jan, but I'm late for the tea party, I'll send the mango chutney later, you ragamuffin on a stick. Toodles, strudel." :D

[Blader5489]

Thor...I buy the explanation he gave us. He no longer has to keep up appearances.

He didn't put appearances to begin with. The whole idea of Thor having a identity crisis and speaking normally just to fit in not only completely contradicts the character Millar created, but also makes absolutely no sense when reconciled with the events of Ultimates 1 and 2.

[Brian M.]

It's the equivalent of someone forgetting to set the joke up right but expecting a laugh because of the punchline. The set up is what makes the joke 90% of the time. The set up is the entire basis of The Arisocrats joke. The punchline is largely irrelevant in comparison. It's like doing a "yo mama" joke only for the person to say "My mother passed away five years ago". if they'd played up Wolvie's insensitivity by having Hawkeye get mad he completely forgot his other child, that would have made sense, but it seems Hawkeye is borderline suicidal over the deaths of his family even though he doesn't care how many of his kids died.

But the explanation doesn't make any logical sense. "I don't care if I'm crazy, I'm going to speak like Hamlet". Hey, I don't care if people think I'm crazy but I'm not going to suddenly start talking like I'm from New York just to do so. If he really didn't care if people thought he was crazy he'd act like Starman in the JSA comics or spout random non sequiturs out of nowhere.

"Thor, we need your help. NOW!"
"And the cow says moo Jan, but I'm late for the tea party, I'll send the mango chutney later, you ragamuffin on a stick. Toodles, strudel." :D

He didn't put appearances to begin with. The whole idea of Thor having a identity crisis and speaking normally just to fit in not only completely contradicts the character Millar created, but also makes absolutely no sense when reconciled with the events of Ultimates 1 and 2.

Uh-huh...I really don't know what else you want me to say. I don't care. I thought it was cool. It was a long day at the office, a long week at grad school so far, I enjoyed the issue, helped me relax a bit. I come on here b/c I wanted to talk about the issue...I'm not gonna nitpick the shit outta it b/c I don't really care about Thor's speech or Hawkeye not correcting Wolverine that it was two kids, not three that got murdered. I'm pretty sure if I was in Hawkeye's place and someone used that kind of line on me the first I would do would not be correct him, it would be to put one between his eyes...which is what Hawkeye did. Maybe a throw away line would as he walked away saying it was three kids woulda been good, but hey, it didn't.

[Blaqueneto]

I was hoping there'd atleast be something decent regarding Magneto and his kids in this issue. But ofcourse not. I don't understand why it's so difficult to respect continuity and put just some thought into the writing.

[Beast]

I was hoping there'd atleast be something decent regarding Magneto and his kids in this issue. But ofcourse not. I don't understand why it's so difficult to respect continuity and put just some thought into the writing.
Where is continuity not being respected? It's a natural outgrowth of what came before.

[Brian M.]

Where is continuity not being respected? It's a natural outgrowth of what came before.

Eh...it is kinda dumb Magneto wouldn't remember the guy he caught banging his wife...but you know I need to correct something, it wasn't Logan who got Magda pregnant. He comments how Peitro looks like him and Wanda looks like Magda, so I don't Logan is Wanda's daddy.

[Vapour Trail]

It's like when they retcon'ed a whole season of Dallas by having it be a dream just to get the character of Bobby back into the show. The writers saw no way of doing it but wanted the character back, the solution sucked but it was the only one they could use.

Same with Thor, it doesn't make sense for him to speak this way, it doesn't make sense for his hammer to be different, and he even looks different... way bulked up.

Loeb wanted to have the character like this so some explanation was given. It isn't the greatest and doesn't make sense from character building perspective, it wasn't foreshadowed in anything else, but there you have it.

Will someone else come around and bring the Ultimates back to pre-Loeb, Vol 1, 2 ,Ultimate Six etc Ultimates? Probably, the book had LOTS of fans, someone will want to bring those characters back.

Isn't there a Star Trek movie that was so bad the fans and other writers just pretend it didn't happen?

[Blader5489]

Uh-huh...I really don't know what else you want me to say. I don't care. I thought it was cool. It was a long day at the office, a long week at grad school so far, I enjoyed the issue, helped me relax a bit. I come on here b/c I wanted to talk about the issue...I'm not gonna nitpick the shit outta it b/c I don't really care about Thor's speech or Hawkeye not correcting Wolverine that it was two kids, not three that got murdered. I'm pretty sure if I was in Hawkeye's place and someone used that kind of line on me the first I would do would not be correct him, it would be to put one between his eyes...which is what Hawkeye did. Maybe a throw away line would as he walked away saying it was three kids woulda been good, but hey, it didn't.

It's not a nitpick or a trivial detail like Loeb screwing up the number of Hawkeye's kids. The "explanation" for Thor's godspeak is a complete betrayal of his character. I don't understand how anyone who enjoyed Millar's run--especially "Gods and Monsters" in Ultimates 2--can possibly defend what Loeb did to Thor.

[worstblogever]

The entire logic of any interaction Magneto and Wolverine have would need to be re-explained by... magic. Either Magda's, or Wanda's, or a combination of the two. (Unless they're the same person.)

Having said that, I find it as easy as a sell as OMD.

Art's still gorgeous, I'm hoping they stick more to what Ultimate Ultron is doing, and who Ultimate Black Panther is than a lot of the incest/Wolverine angle.

In other words, as long as Ultimate continuity isn't rewritten, Loeb's doing alright. And... he's kind of mucking with it a bit.

I'd give it 6/10, and that's mainly because I'm a Joe Mad fan.

[Blader5489]

Where is continuity not being respected? It's a natural outgrowth of what came before.

Uh, did you not read? The whole plot of this issue is a series of retcons.

[Blader5489]

Really mature. No wonder you don't like Loeb's Ultimates. It's not immature enough for you.

I shudder to think of anything that could be more immature than Loeb's writing.

[Brian M.]

It's not a nitpick or a trivial detail like Loeb screwing up the number of Hawkeye's kids. The "explanation" for Thor's godspeak is a complete betrayal of his character. I don't understand how anyone who enjoyed Millar's run--especially "Gods and Monsters" in Ultimates 2--can possibly defend what Loeb did to Thor.

I believe I said before that I'd have prefered Millar's Thor and the attitude that came with that, but Loeb wanted this kind of Thor, so he came up with a somewhat logical reason. It's not perfect, but it kinda fits. Thor figures, Cat's outta the bag now, why pretend.

I do miss him going out and doing humanitarian work, I enjoyed that aspect of the Millar had Thor doing. Hippie Thor was cool.

[Beast]

Uh, did you not read? The whole plot of this issue is a series of retcons.
Everything that reveals information that wasn't known before is a retcon.

It stands for Retroactive Continuity. And Millar's run was just as full of it.

[Beast]

I shudder to think of anything that could be more immature than Loeb's writing.
Chucklehead's reply was. So there's something for you.

[Joe Franklin]

The biggest haters here at CBR are the first guys in line at the comic shop to buy the issue and then post in this thread about it. Loeb wins.:cool:

[Beast]

I believe I said before that I'd have prefered Millar's Thor and the attitude that came with that, but Loeb wanted this kind of Thor, so he came up with a somewhat logical reason. It's not perfect, but it kinda fits. Thor figures, Cat's outta the bag now, why pretend.

I do miss him going out and doing humanitarian work, I enjoyed that aspect of the Millar had Thor doing. Hippie Thor was cool.
Hippie Thor was cool? Who are you and what have you done with the real Brian M? :D

[Beast]

The biggest haters here at CBR are the first guys in line at the comic shop to buy the issue and then post in this thread about it. Loeb wins.:cool:
Yep. This thread is almost as entertaining as a New Exiles thread. Heh. :p

[Brian M.]

Hippie Thor was cool? Who are you and what have you done with the real Brian M? :D

Eh, I make exceptions.

[Blader5489]

Thor figures, Cat's outta the bag now, why pretend.

But there was no bag! Thor never tried to kept his godhood a secret. One of his first scenes in the whole series was casually telling Nick Fury about how he just recently defeated the Midgard Serpent or something.

Thor was never hiding his identity and the idea that he was trying to fit in is the complete opposite of the character that Millar established, the Thor that was always speaking his mind and causing shit because of his own personal values.

[Vapour Trail]

I heard Loeb is gonna have Captain America ditch the army boots for his 616 pirate boots before this arc is done?

http://img26.picoodle.com/img/img26/4/2/20/f_capm_9068a2b.jpg (http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?img=/4/2/20/f_capm_9068a2b.jpg&srv=img26)

[Blader5489]

Everything that reveals information that wasn't known before is a retcon.

The Wolverine/Magneto/Quicksilver dynamic has changed. Thor has become a completely new character. Valkyrie has become a completely new character. Wasp is no longer Asian. Cap has become a douchebag to his own teammates. Wanda was killed for no real reason.

How could you consider any of this "respectful" to the continuity that Millar and co. established?

And Millar's run was just as full of it.

No it wasn't. Ultimates 1 established a continuity, which Ultimates 2 then logically grew out of. Millar never needed to change his own characters and stories for the sake of continuing the series.

[Brian M.]

But there was no bag! Thor never tried to kept his godhood a secret. One of his first scenes in the whole series was casually telling Nick Fury about how he just recently defeated the Midgard Serpent or something.

Thor was never hiding his identity and the idea that he was trying to fit in is the complete opposite of the character that Millar established, the Thor that was always speaking his mind and causing shit because of his own personal values.

He always seemed to kinda play up that crazy factor thought, like he was playing into their veiws of him being crazy. Then at the end of Grand Theft America they knew he wasn't crazy, wasn't lying or anything. I'm not saying it's perfect, but it sorta works.

I do find it kinda weak that he just spends all day in bed bagging that girl. I mean I get having a couple days of loving and nothing but, but at some point you gotta get up and get to work.

[Beast]

The Wolverine/Magneto/Quicksilver dynamic has changed.
No it hasn't. It's simply been deepened. We knew from Quicky's first appearance that he was a major disappointment to Magneto. Now we're getting more info added to why. There's not been a huge change.
Thor has become a completely new character.
No he hasn't. Same character from the Millar's Ultimates. That's like saying when they revealed he really was a God in Ultimates 2 that he was suddenly a different character.
Valkyrie has become a completely new character.
No she hasn't. She simply has new powers. That doesn't change who she is.
Wasp is no longer Asian.
Chalk that up to a different artist drawing her. Happens all the time with comics.
Cap has become a douchebag to his own teammates.
Cap was pretty much a hardass in Millar's run also. Nothing has changed.
Wanda was killed for no real reason.
She was? Given her murder hasn't been explained yet, I don't think so. :p
How could you consider any of this "respectful" to the continuity that Millar and co. established?
Because it's a natural outgrowth of what came before. The characters have moved forward.
No it wasn't. Ultimates 1 established a continuity, which Ultimates 2 then logically grew out of. Millar never needed to change his own characters and stories for the sake of continuing the series.
Yes it was. Everything revealed that wasn't known to the readers before hand is a retcon.
It's Retroactive Continuity.

[Blaqueneto]

Where is continuity not being respected? It's a natural outgrowth of what came before.You can't be serious. Given what has been established with Magneto, how is all that mess between him and Wolverine natural outgrowth? he conviniently forgot about that whole incident? and now he wanted Pietro dead all along? are you kidding me? and Magda??? -what happened to Isabelle? Ugh.

[Joe Franklin]

You can't be serious. Given what has been established with Magneto, how is all that mess between him and Wolverine natural outgrowth? he conviniently forgot about that whole incident? and now he wanted Pietro dead all along? are you kidding me? and Magda??? -what happened to Isabelle? Ugh.

The answer is simple. Loeb doesn't have time to read other people's comic books, and he shouldn't bother either. He gets paid the same pay rate either way.;)

[Beast]

A stunningly poor understanding of the term.
No it's not. Retroactive continuity refers to anything that is revealed that is new information.

[Mothmonsterman]

No it's not. Retroactive continuity refers to anything that is revealed that is new information.

No it doesn't. For the change to be a retcon, it must alter a fact that was fully intended to be true when it was originally printed. Millar didn't change facts as he went along. There were red herring and hints at things to come, and we learned more about the truth as the story progressed, but he wasn't retconning anything.

[Blader5489]

The answer is simple. Loeb doesn't have time to read other people's comic books, and he shouldn't bother either. He gets paid the same pay rate either way.;)

Hence the original point of Loeb not respecting continuity.

[Joe Franklin]

Hence the original point of Loeb not respecting continuity.


Why should he is the real question? He has the #1 selling comic book every month without respecting continuity. If his Ultimates only sold 2 copies every month, then he might rethink his stance on continuity, but he has no need to, and the sales figures prove it.;)

[Superbeast]

;) Sure you did friend. I download all of my comic books for free from the magic fairy comic book shop as well.:D

You need to look harder for these fairy comic book shops then.

I bought the first two issues but right now only Ultimate Iron Man is getting my coinage.

Why should he is the real question?

You can't follow Gulliver's path wearing a midget's wingtips. Sales don't mean good taste. Haven't since the eighties. Hell, are you going to tell me Youngblood was a well written series just because it sold like cut price gold when it first came out?

[desanth]

Well lets see, I'll review this issue:

Best out of the three, although that might just be me becoming normalized to Loeb's writing. I didn't care for most of the issue, some of it was interesting, but it seems too much like 616 still. The regard towards continuity are slim, for some reason they want to change the Ultimate Universe alot more than necessary. Perhaps because it was because the UU was made so that anyone could pick up an issue and be able to follow without too much regard for what past issues had(from what I heard, might be wrong of course) and now that the UU is getting older this is less and less of an issue, so you might want to make it more like 616 to get more sales.

Now onto continuity arguements:
Thor's speech-we've already seen from the Thor/Volstagg lunch meet, asgardians don't speak the way being presented now; Volstagg had no reason to act since reality was being shuffled so that no one ever knew he was there; also Loki didn't speak that weird way when the cat was outta the bag. My biggest concern though is that this is against Thor's character previously established, he wouldn't pretend at all, he's keepin it real. For those complaining about him constantly sleeping with Valkyrie, I think only one afternoon has been shown through the comics, so one night bangin your hoe ain't outta character necessarily.
Hawkeye's attitude-you people saying that being suicidal etc is a natural reaction etc; dear god, you guys don't think realisticly at all; to get into a top spot in SHIELD, black ops, and all that without being a superhuman, you would most likely have to pass a psych test; if he passed it would be very unlikely that he'd have this type of reaction; I think that the end of Ultimates 2 had the proper mentallity, revenge, not massive suicidal stupidity with disregard to your teammates and innocent bystander's lives.
Cap is BP-I called this straight out after reading issue 1; its an obvious trope, although Loeb might throw in a twist and have it be someone else(when I say obvious trope, I mean everyone was supposed to think that Cap might be BP from the situation); I just wanted to brag on this part, since plenty of people flamed the idea and kept saying that there were no context clues or somesuch.
Valkyrie's character-her stupidity is still in touch, she likes dinosaurs; I just don't like Thor dating her is all, that part makes no sense since she was so artificial and fake to begin with.


That's all, flame on!

[Joe Franklin]

You keep saying this.

I'm not sure why, though, when only the first issue was the top-selling comic, and the second issue dropped down by 33,000 copies and six slots.

I can't find the sales charts for Jan 08. Got a link for me? Thanks.:)

[desanth]

Got a link? I'll start reading free comic books like you guys. Free is cool.:cool:

I read all of Vol 3 through downloads. Why would you pay for this shtuff unless you got low standards? Its like paying for an ugly disease infested hooker instead of sleeping with a regular ugly disease infested person for free. I of course bought Vol 1&2 when it came out :D and sleep with high class hookers! ;)

[Superbeast]

: Why? Is it a forum rules violation?

No shiznit, Sherlock.

[Mothmonsterman]

Best out of the three, although that might just be me becoming normalized to Loeb's writing. I didn't care for most of the issue, some of it was interesting, but it seems too much like 616 still. The regard towards continuity are slim, for some reason they want to change the Ultimate Universe alot more than necessary. Perhaps because it was because the UU was made so that anyone could pick up an issue and be able to follow without too much regard for what past issues had(from what I heard, might be wrong of course) and now that the UU is getting older this is less and less of an issue, so you might want to make it more like 616 to get more sales.


I've been saying for a long time that the Ultimate line should not be a universe, but instead each creator run should be an entity unto itself.

The whole point of the Ultimates line was to a) be free of years of convoluted continuity, and b) allow writers to give their own twist on classic Marvel characters.

In that spirit, I think each new creative team should be able to start from scratch with their own Ultimate version of the classic characters, rather than continuing where the last team left off. The instant one creative team is replaced by another, the entire rationale behind the Ultimate line goes out the window.

[Dr. Chaos]

Jesus, the thing that gets me the most disappointed here is Hawkeye.

Easily one of the most badass characters in Ultimates 2 and now with a slick costume and artillery to go with that and Loeb turns him into a rebellious 14 year old boy...oy. This isn't the type of guy that lets out his emotions in a time of great affliction, he bottles them into silent rage and kills, as I'm sure The Black Widow will attest to.

On the upside, possible Ultimate Ultron foreshadowing? Woot!

[Mothmonsterman]

I like how all of the "classic" concepts Loeb is drawing from come from the past couple of years. Ultimate HoM Wanda. Ultimate MA Ultron.

Decade upon decade of Avengers history to draw from, and he's Ultimatizing the Bendis era.

[Dr. Chaos]

Ultimate MA Ultron.
Someone is going to have to explain this one to me because I don't see boobies on that robot.

And making the comparison just becuase there was an Iron Man disguise involved is stretching it.

That obviously isn't Tony or his body.

[Mothmonsterman]

Someone is going to have to explain this one to me because I don't see boobies on that robot.

Bendis had his Ultron use Iron Man's armor. Loeb is now using the same setup for the Ultimate version. That's not a coincidence.

Instead of patterning his Ultron after the classic incarnation of the character that has been around for decades, he uses the one from five months ago.

[desanth]

I like how all of the "classic" concepts Loeb is drawing from come from the past couple of years. Ultimate HoM Wanda. Ultimate MA Ultron.

Decade upon decade of Avengers history to draw from, and he's Ultimatizing the Bendis era.

Yea, I noticed that too. So sad. :mad:

[Ragnorok64]

The dialog is still horrible. Seriously what was with the "didn't you used to have a wife and 2 kids" quip?And the following "you wanna go mutie!" garbage? What characters are these?

Also the 2 seconds ago that suddenly became last night was off putting. I certainly hope this all comes together somehow. When exactly did Logan leave to come to Stark's tower? He's have to have left before Wanda was shot wouldn't he?

[KAy]

/facepalm

This was SH!T. Can't believe it's called "Ultimates 3", because at it's "best" U3 is "What If v2 issues left unpublished because of their low quality", and at it's worst it's "glorified fan-wank written by a teenager overdosed on mid-90s Image comics".

I could write pages and pages about what's wrong with U3, but I guess there's no point in preaching to the converted. To those unfortunate who had to pay to read this crap: I'm really sorry for you guys, and I wish you could have your refund. This is a perfect example of why everyone should have the right to read the comic before buying it.

R.I.P. Ultimates, you will be sorely missed.

Signed, proud owner of U1 & U2 hardcovers.

[Mothmonsterman]

I could write pages and pages about what's wrong with U3, but I guess there's no point in preaching to the converted.

On another board, I treated a Loeb fan to an essay--roughly three pages in MS word--just detailing what was wrong with THE FIRST PAGE of issue #1.

[Will.S]

I like how all of the "classic" concepts Loeb is drawing from come from the past couple of years. Ultimate HoM Wanda. Ultimate MA Ultron.

Decade upon decade of Avengers history to draw from, and he's Ultimatizing the Bendis era.

Bendis had his Ultron use Iron Man's armor. Loeb is now using the same setup for the Ultimate version. That's not a coincidence.

Instead of patterning his Ultron after the classic incarnation of the character that has been around for decades, he uses the one from five months ago.
Ultron taking control of Iron Man's armor was was done way before Bendis ever did it. It was being made ready for Ultron by Jocasta initially before the lightning hit it and it turned sentient during the Quesada/Sean Chen/Keron Grant runs. Also taking over Tony's armor is such an old story concept that it dates back to the old days so that's nothing new.

Nice try though.

[Will.S]

It is no coincidence that Loeb is using a Tonytron conceit mere months after Bendis did it in MA.
You do realize that Ultimates 3 was in development long before Mighty Avengers came out right?

[Mothmonsterman]

Seems like it. It's the 'La-La-La, I can't hear you' defense. ;)

Tell us again how Loeb's run is all a logical extension of Millar's.

[KAy]

On another board, I treated a Loeb fan to an essay--roughly three pages in MS word--just detailing what was wrong with THE FIRST PAGE of issue #1.

Can you please give us a link? Would be interesting to read it. :)

[Mothmonsterman]

You do realize that Ultimates 3 was in development long before Mighty Avengers came out right?


Let's use our powers of deductive reasoning, shall we?

If the Mighty Avengers Ultron premiered months before the Ultimates III Ultron, but Ultimates III was in development before Mighty Avengers came out, what might one say about the period during which Mighty Avengers was in development?

[ultimate hulk]

How so?

I'm really curious how I'm ruining comics.

i wasn't talking about you,i was agreeing with the mothmonster.
if people keep bending over backwards for marvel,then marvel won't hesitate to give you the shaft.:D

[Stony]

Oy, what a lot of pruning...

Ok, here it is. I don't mind you breaking the comic down to shreds to examine its wonders/faults, but any more posts being rude or sniping at each other gains that poster a one week ban.

And links to free comics downloads are prohibited too.

[ultimate hulk]

ok people! why're discussing loeb horrible writing when we could be discussing ultimate human 2.
has anyone read it yet?

my hats of to you mothmanmonster.:D

[hunter_peterson]

Play nice children. Also who totally called it on Wolvie shagging Mrs. Magneto? Who? Why it was me! But seriously, Magneto (forgetting Wolverine's face was just stupid. And if Wanda is Wolverine's daughter (actually possible) she could still look like Magda.

Although why she would be Magneto's favorite is beyond me... "she looks so much like Magda"... uh-oh, wait... more incest. I did not know Magneto was essentially a late night sneaky step-dad. Ewww.

[Will.S]

Let's use our powers of deductive reasoning, shall we?

If the Mighty Avengers Ultron premiered months before the Ultimates III Ultron, but Ultimates III was in development before Mighty Avengers came out, what might one say about the period during which Mighty Avengers was in development?
Ultimates 3 was announced and in development for about 2 years. Mighty Avengers at the earliest would have been in development for about the same time. So basically to reiterate Ultimates 3 was already being worked on with Madureira before or around the time that Bendis began working on Mighty so it's not like Loeb saw Mighty Avengers as it was coming out and then said "Hey I love this idea, let me copy from there and put it in my Ultimates".

In fact here are the official announcements and dates:

Ultimates v.3 ('05) (http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?threadid=42045)

Mighty Avengers announcement ('06) (http://www.newsarama.com/SDCC06/Marvel/mighty.html)

[ANewHope]

Action speaks louder than words. Thank you Loeb

[Devil May Care]

Why should he is the real question? He has the #1 selling comic book every month without respecting continuity. If his Ultimates only sold 2 copies every month, then he might rethink his stance on continuity, but he has no need to, and the sales figures prove it.;)

I assume that your sarcasm machine is cranked to 11.

If you are in fact serious, then you've just slapped the face of every comic fan. Continuity is established to provide the fans with an ongoing relationship with the characters they're reading about, a history on which more and better stories can be built and told.

A writer who ignores that which has been written before in favor of following his own whims, as Loeb seems to have done in U3, is essentially urinating on the time the readers spent with the characters before. It's disrespectful to the fans and to the writers who laid the foundation for him to build upon.

It's a disheartening sign when someone like that is given carte blanche to run amok with an established title, but the blame must be shared with the Marvel execs who doubtlessly saw what was going on and did nothing to reign him in. They of all people should be taking steps to preserve the Ultimate timeline, something that was created for the sole purpose of having a continuity that was free of excessive clutter ala the 616 line. If anything, the Ultimate line should have even more stringent guidelines when it comes to stuff like that.

BTW, I'd like to say that I'm above saying "I told you so" regarding the quality of Uv3, or that I basically called it back when the character designs were released, but... I'm not that big a person.

[rwsmith]

I like how all of the "classic" concepts Loeb is drawing from come from the past couple of years. Ultimate HoM Wanda. Ultimate MA Ultron.

Decade upon decade of Avengers history to draw from, and he's Ultimatizing the Bendis era.

Well, considering I like the Bendis era far more than all of the previous Avengers history combined, I'm good with that.

Personally I didn't think this issue was that bad. A definite improvement over the last two. Still not great (or even good) IMO, but getting better. The beautiful Joe Mad artwork certainly helps. I wish he'd come back and do an arc on Uncanny X-men or X-Force or something.

[Brian M.]

Well, considering I like the Bendis era far more than all of the previous Avengers history combined, I'm good with that.

Personally I didn't think this issue was that bad. A definite improvement over the last two. Still not great (or even good) IMO, but getting better. The beautiful Joe Mad artwork certainly helps. I wish he'd come back and do an arc on Uncanny X-men or X-Force or something.

Joe Mad on X-Force...that would be sweet.

[Rufusade]

The popularity of this thread confirms my worst fears, heh.

[Will.S]

BTW, I'd like to say that I'm above saying "I told you so" regarding the quality of Uv3, or that I basically called it back when the character designs were released, but... I'm not that big a person.
I actually enjoy Ultimates 3 despite some problems so the "I told you so" certainly doesn't apply to me.

[ThePhenom]

Still hate it, especially with the whole Wungalore mountain thing, her being half-witch and the continued shite dialogue.

BUT I think this issue did clear up a few continuity issues (despite the additional haphanded retcons) and ended up being a lot better than the last two.

[Mothmonsterman]

Well, considering I like the Bendis era far more than all of the previous Avengers history combined, I'm good with that.

That's bully for you, but some of us are actual Avengers fans.

[Brian M.]

That's bully for you, but some of us are actual Avengers fans.

Why are those who like Bendis's Avengers not "REAL" Avenger fans?

[Will.S]

Why are those who like Bendis's Avengers not "REAL" Avenger fans?
Because they're always held to a lower standard.

[Blader5489]

Why are those who like Bendis's Avengers not "REAL" Avenger fans?

There's a pretty clear distinction between the pre-Disassembled Avengers and Bendis' Avengers. Not necessarily a difference in quality, but in direction.

[Mothmonsterman]

Why are those who like Bendis's Avengers not "REAL" Avenger fans?

If the only Avengers run you like is the one where Spider-Man, Wolverine, and Luke Cage & the 70's Rejects invaded the book, then I'm sorry, but you're not an Avengers fan. You're just a Bendis mark.

[TheAmazingSpidey]

On another board, I treated a Loeb fan to an essay--roughly three pages in MS word--just detailing what was wrong with THE FIRST PAGE of issue #1.

I would love to read that.

[Brian M.]

I actually enjoy Ultimates 3 despite some problems so the "I told you so" certainly doesn't apply to me.

I'm with Will here.

[Mothmonsterman]

Because they're always held to a lower standard.

A Freudian slip, perhaps?

When something is held to a lower standard, that means less quality is expected of it. I don't believe you meant to say that, but it is certainly fitting commentary on anyone with low enough standards as to be defending this garbage.

[RodeoWearden]

A Freudian slip, perhaps?

When something is held to a lower standard, that means less quality is expected of it. I don't believe you meant to say that, but it is certainly fitting commentary on anyone with low enough standards as to be defending this garbage.

Do me a favor and start an "I hate Ultimates 3" thread so that we can have yet another thread i dont have to read, alright? Its okay to share your opinions, but when every other post is Mothman whatever insulting somebody's intelligence, it just gets boring. So quit insulting people and let somebody with actually entertaining things to say step forward, aight?

This public service announcment brought to you by "I simply dont give a Sh!t."

[Will.S]

A Freudian slip, perhaps?

When something is held to a lower standard, that means less quality is expected of it. I don't believe you meant to say that, but it is certainly fitting commentary on anyone with low enough standards as to be defending this garbage.I actually should have said "held in lower regard" instead of "standard" which was indeed erroneous.

But thanks for the compliment!

[Toboe]

Now that I read it, I liked that we got to know more about Quicksilver and the Scarlet Witch's mother, and how their relationship is explored further.

But Wolverine doing Magda and the Scarlet Witch conjuring dinosaurs was extremely silly.

[Brian M.]

Now that I read it, I liked that we got to know more about Quicksilver and the Scarlet Witch's mother, and how their relationship is explored further.

But Wolverine doing Magda and the Scarlet Witch conjuring dinosaurs was extremely silly.

See I didn't think her conjuring the dino's as silly. I mean...she alters reality...not too crazy really.

Wolverine banging Magda...eh, the Ultimate U has always been a much more interconnected universe than 616. So I can buy it.

The reason for Pietro and Wanda's...relationship...eh, it didn't REALLY need to cross that line for him to still protect her, but whatever.

[flapjaxx]

Well, I bought this today and I'm pleased with my purchase! Loooove that Joe Mad art! I do feel like it's '93 again and I'm buying an issue of Spawn or something, but I don't feel guilty about that. I don't know if I've ever read a series before where like four times an issue I pause and think, "Wow this would look great as a poster--Ugh, why do Jeph Loeb's words have to be there cluttering this up?!" Anyone ragging on Joe Mad in this thread, please just try to appreciate this art for what it is--its strength, the display of raw talent, is incredible. No Joe Mad isn't a great storyteller, but I don't really care about this story anyway. And when he DOES do backgrounds, they are incredible too (I particularly liked the inside of Magda's, err, house.)

Superbeast, you're list of this issue's nonsense (post #9 of this thread) was excellent! :D

Time has become fluid in Loeb's Ultimates, you understand. When Wolverine appeared at the end of issue 2, it was "two seconds ago." The first page of issue 3, though, in spite of being an immediate continuation of the prior scene, was "last night." Don't you see? Time is going forward and backward at random intervals! It's genius! What an intriguing mystery! All will be explained!

HAHAHAHAHA. I missed that "Last night" thing, mainly because I don't buy this for the writing and don't usually pay more than a passing glance at "setting" captions. Combined with the "countdown-ending-at-two-seconds-ago" last issue, this is just too hilariously pointless.

Where is continuity not being respected? It's a natural outgrowth of what came before.

Dude, I really hope you're on Marvel's payroll, or maybe you're an internet bot or something. You speak about comic book characters all day long as if they were real people. No offense, but you had a post once where you argued that Emma Frost would want to be romantically involved with Hank McCoy. You thought that was in her character. And since you think of these people as if they were real people, of course you're just going to accept whatever they do next as the next development of their lives. But these characters in Ultimates 3 can hardly act more OUT of character than they are acting right now. For things to get any more "out of character", Loeb would have to start making them suddenly decide to do things like forming a rock band. Are you sure you're not just locked in a process of double-think, brainwashing yourself into just accepting it all? Don't you have some critical skills as a reader? Can't you sense that some things are pretty much just flat-out WRONG, as if these characters were replaced by others who only have names (not even costumes!) in common with the cast of Ultimates 1 & 2? Go to the #9 post above, where another poster has outlined many of the nonsensical elements of this issue. How can you have things like this pointed out to you, and yet reply that you think it's all "natural" and makes sense? This stuff is the equivalent of turning on the tv and seeing a news conference where Bill Clinton announces that he's decided to try out for the WWE. It's that out-of-character. There are that many strange, inexplicable turns going on here, and if you think these things are "natural outgrowths" then I seriously pity you.

If the only Avengers run you like is the one where Spider-Man, Wolverine, and Luke Cage & the 70's Rejects invaded the book, then I'm sorry, but you're not an Avengers fan. You're just a Bendis mark.

Seconded! (I still think Bendis is doing a good job with that line overall, though.)

[Mothmonsterman]

See I didn't think her conjuring the dino's as silly. I mean...she alters reality...not too crazy really.

You seem to be thinking of some other character.

The thing about Wanda's classic powers is that it takes a certain amount of cleverness to write them effectively. It's easy enough to pen a fight for a character who shoots energy blasts from his hands, but probability manipulation is a bit trickier. It displays an embarrassing lack of creativity when a writer can't work with her powers and goes, "well, when you think about it, she really warps reality, so, um, I'll just have her conjure dinosaurs!"

[Superbeast]

Superbeast, you're list of this issue's nonsense (post #9 of this thread) was excellent! :D

Thank you. I am an Ultimates fan but at the same time if I read something dodgy, I figure this is the place to state it. Being a fan doesn't mean being a sycophant IMO. Ultimates vol.3 is like when Ronny James Dio replaced Ozzy in Sabbath to me.

[rwsmith]

If the only Avengers run you like is the one where Spider-Man, Wolverine, and Luke Cage & the 70's Rejects invaded the book, then I'm sorry, but you're not an Avengers fan. You're just a Bendis mark.

Okay, so I guess I'm a Bendis mark (even though the only Bendis books I read are New and Mighty Avengers). Is that supposed to be an insult or something? Because I'm okay with that. The man's a good writer IMO.

Oh, and I also have no problem with not being a REAL Avengers fan. Most of the so-called real fans are kind of douchey anyway.

[Kid Kamikaze10]

Okay, so I guess I'm a Bendis mark (even though the only Bendis books I read are New and Mighty Avengers). Is that supposed to be an insult or something? Because I'm okay with that. The man's a good writer IMO.

Oh, and I also have no problem with not being a REAL Avengers fan. Most of the so-called real fans are kind of douchey anyway.

That's what happens when a few writers systematically destroy your favorite characters, or turn them into unlikable douches.

[rwsmith]

Oh, well. Guess you'll have to wait until someone comes back and restores the Avengers to the campy crapfest they were before. When that time comes, though, you won't hear me bitch about it. I'll just move on to things I actually enjoy rather than whining about the "good old days."

[Superbeast]

Oh, well. Guess you'll have to wait until someone comes back and restores the Avengers to the campy crapfest they were before. When that time comes, though, you won't hear me bitch about it. I'll just move on to things I actually enjoy rather than whining about the "good old days."

The Masters of Evil seizing Avengers Mansion and torturing Jarvis was not a campy crapfest.

[rwsmith]

The very name "Masters of Evil" just screams campy crapfest.

[Kid Kamikaze10]

The very name "Masters of Evil" just screams campy crapfest.

Says someone who hasn't read the material....

Plus, they're a team that started in the sixties, of course it's gonna sound like a campy crapfest. Blame Stan Lee.

[Will.S]

The very name "Masters of Evil" just screams campy crapfest.
What stories have you read of them so far?

Under Siege and all of their appearances as Thunderbolts were great. As a longtime Avengers fan I'm having a blast with Bendis's run on the books as well as the Ultimates.

[Brian M.]

I think it's pretty stupid to tell someone that if they've just read Bendis's run they aren't Avengers fans. I mean, who the hell are you to tell me if I'm a fan or not?

[Prime24]

Two more issues to go. finally we have a plot. This book clearly favours style over substance. I really appreciate what loeb (being a co-architect) is trying to do for the ultimate universe by giving it some kind of focus with the plot in ultimates 3 developing into ultimatum. By doing that the universe would have a clear purpose and definition. But once it's over with all due respect he,kirkman and carey need to leave their current books. Kirkman has been really awful in ultimate x-men and i won't elaborate further. carey's ult. fantastic four run while brilliant in concept (by switching arcs between space/aliens and more grounded stories) really did not have a lot of buzz or excitement.
As for jeph loeb i think i finally understand his style of writing. After reading batman (hush), superman/batman 1-6, and red hulk 1 and 2 i've come to the conclusion that loeb is a sucker for mysteries & unnecessary guest appearances. i feel there are too many plots and not enough time with just 5 issues. as a result we will have rushed answers to some of the questions posed. I hope some other creative team gets to write ultimates 4 and it should be a 12-13 issue series with better character development. Hopefully warren ellis

[Will.S]

I think it's pretty stupid to tell someone that if they've just read Bendis's run they aren't Avengers fans. I mean, who the hell are you to tell me if I'm a fan or not?
That's just it Brian, its not a valid criticism at all.

If say Roger Stern got you into the Avengers and you disliked Roy Thomas's work, or didn't get into Steve Englehart for whatever reason, does that make you a "mark" for Stern? No, the writer was able to make the Avengers interesting to you or wrote the title in such a way that made you "get it". I think Mark Millar did this with the Ultimates enough to get people to enjoy his edgy new take on the Avengers which was IRC before New Avengers came about and revitalized the Avengers books in the 616 universe.

[chrismileslord]

I think it's pretty stupid to tell someone that if they've just read Bendis's run they aren't Avengers fans. I mean, who the hell are you to tell me if I'm a fan or not?

Because some people have nothing else to do with there time than to come into a thread of a book they don't like and try and bash everyone who likes it. It's near impossible to actually hold a real discussion about Ultimates 3 without getting, "This book sucks lol cause he said two instead of three" or "Her powers don't work that way, I just know that" "or those avengers aren't real avengers" but the thing is, yeah it was a writing mistake, it happens on occasion,, and about Wanda, it could be her powers under pressure, or another aspect of her powers, And the old avengers changed memebers alot. Seriously, there was a time where there were over 12 avengers on a team. Yet, since Bendis decided not to use the classic avengers, and reintroduce new characters along with old characters to have new interactions and new stories to tell, that's not the "real" avengers, and everyone who likes them must not be real avengers fans. I have been fans of the Avengers for a very long time, and to hear someone tell me I am not an avengers fan is dumb, because if you read the last "real" avengers issues before bendis, and then bendis run, Bendis gave us some really good stories. Just like Loeb is doing here. No, this is not Miller, it's not Miller's book, and Loeb is continuing a story that was told very well and is a great read.

[Kid Kamikaze10]

Honestly, I don't like judging who's a fan and who's not, and whatever, but if you completely disregard what happened in the past, and past lineups, etc. ; if you don't want to even knowledge the Avengers pre-Disassembled, at best you are a NA fan, but I don't think I could call you a fan of the Avengers Legacy.

It's like only liking Morrison's X-Men, and nothing else.

Back on topic, my problem with this comic isn't that he's not following what Millar did (even though he has messed up many of the things that made Millar's run so interesting), but it's in his craft, and Mads.

It feels like a bad 90s comic (and it seems to be just as popular). In fact, this whole charade feels like Youngbloods. Poster like art that has no flow, no feel, no substance, plotting with plotholes, logic deficiencies, and just random crap, and writting that has got to be the worst in mainstream comics.

It's right up there with Amazon's Attack. Seriously. This junk feels amateur, if not worse. Thankfully, I'm not buying this series, but I am reading it. I'm a up-and-coming writer, so I need to know what not to do when I'm writing.

At some point, I'd love to see the script for this.

[Kid Kamikaze10]

That's just it Brian, its not a valid criticism at all.

If say Roger Stern got you into the Avengers and you disliked Roy Thomas's work, or didn't get into Steve Englehart for whatever reason, does that make you a "mark" for Stern? No, the writer was able to make the Avengers interesting to you or wrote the title in such a way that made you "get it".

The problem is, the only thing that is even close to what the Avenger's were these days are Marvel Adventure Avengers, and to some degree, Mighty Avengers.

NA is like Marvel Knights. If you liked that, fine, but it is definitely a different direction of the Avengers. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy reading NA and MA, but to me, only the two that I said before are similar to how it was "back in the day".

So, IMO, liking just one run, especially one as unique as Bendis' reign, is not getting what the Avengers is about.

[desanth]

Two more issues to go. finally we have a plot. This book clearly favours style over substance. I really appreciate what loeb (being a co-architect) is trying to do for the ultimate universe by giving it some kind of focus with the plot in ultimates 3 developing into ultimatum. By doing that the universe would have a clear purpose and definition.

I don't really get this, the universe shouldn't really need a purpose. If you mean that there is a reason why there a super humans(a clear purpose and definition), that's from origins that is supposed to come out at some time in the future. Ultimatum has no real purpose other than to change things up and get sales.

Because some people have nothing else to do with there time than to come into a thread of a book they don't like and try and bash everyone who likes it. It's near impossible to actually hold a real discussion about Ultimates 3 without getting, "This book sucks lol cause he said two instead of three" or "Her powers don't work that way, I just know that" "or those avengers aren't real avengers" but the thing is, yeah it was a writing mistake, it happens on occasion,, and about Wanda, it could be her powers under pressure, or another aspect of her powers,

Its more or less the presentation(Mad's fault), length(well I guess Marvel or Loeb, whoever thought this should be 5 issues long), and lack of details(come on, you gotta agree that someone shoulda caught this, not blaming Loeb since its just a number but still, wtf hire some factcheckers or whatever). In Ultimate Power and Ultimates, Wanda summoned alotta shtuff(alternate Supremes and Asgardian warriors respectively) but it wasn't easy. You have a low threat like Wolverine try to kill Pietro who could easily outrun him, see him fast enough etc or even a simple reality warp to send Wolverine away but Wanda instantly summons some dinos. Maybe if she was being stalked by Wolverine and the jungle guy and his cat while carrying Pietro who has been stabbed in his sleep.. That'd be cool, but it should take about the whole issue and told much better(Mad, you might make some pretty stuff, but I'd rather have a better storyteller). Come on Marvel, you're better than this!

Back on topic, my problem with this comic isn't that he's not following what Millar did (even though he has messed up many of the things that made Millar's run so interesting), but it's in his craft, and Mads.

It feels like a bad 90s comic (and it seems to be just as popular). In fact, this whole charade feels like Youngbloods. Poster like art that has no flow, no feel, no substance, plotting with plotholes, logic deficiencies, and just random crap, and writting that has got to be the worst in mainstream comics.

It's right up there with Amazon's Attack. Seriously. This junk feels amateur, if not worse. Thankfully, I'm not buying this series, but I am reading it. I'm a up-and-coming writer, so I need to know what not to do when I'm writing.

At some point, I'd love to see the script for this.

Yea, I feel like if I knew a decent artist, I could round up a team of people myself and either write or redo with the same plot this whole Ultimates 3 and it'd be much better than this stuff. I'm just wondering now if this comic was just bad or that I'm just that good.. I'm kinda modest so I'm going with the former.

[Sabrinaset]

I'm wondering what Loeb's other plans for the Ultimates are. I'm guessing Thor returning to his homeland of Olympus. Or the Black Panther revealed to be the White Tiger. Who knows.

[Tobias March]

I'm wondering what Loeb's other plans for the Ultimates are. I'm guessing Thor returning to his homeland of Olympus. Or the Black Panther revealed to be the White Tiger. Who knows.

It's not beyond the bounds of possibility. Wasp seems to be an extra from Steve Martin's the Jerk. "Janet...you're white." "What!"

[Will.S]

It's right up there with Amazon's Attack. Seriously. This junk feels amateur, if not worse. Thankfully, I'm not buying this series, but I am reading it. I'm a up-and-coming writer, so I need to know what not to do when I'm writing.Ugh, hell no. Amazons Attack was the worst "crossover" I've ever read. I've never seen something like that be so beholden to its tie-ins. I'm not saying that Ultimates 3 doesn't have it's problems because it has plenty apparent to anyone with prior knowledge of the first two volumes. It's just that even with those problems they don't get in my way of the story overall which has a good deal of fun elements to it.

For every thing that feels wrong there's another that evens it out.

The bad: Wolverine remembering the Savage Land stuff with Magda and Magneto? How did he get his memory back of something so far back? Was Ultimate Wolverine Origins supposed to play into this somehow?

The good: Wolverine remembering his time with Quicksilver, Magneto, and Wanda in the Savage Land is accurate. He spent time with them before joining and infiltrating the X-Men in Millar's inital run, Loeb inserted new continuity he didn't retcon anything to my knowledge there. Plus his time in the Savage Land lead to the last page reveal with Shanna and Ka-Zar helping and I loved the lush art all throughout.

The bad: Hawkeye had 3 kids (Wolverine said 2), doesn't act like he did before, and is wearing a new costume and gear.

The good: So who really gives a crap that Wolverine got the number of kids wrong? Is that really a key plot point or do you expect him to have detailed files on Hawkeye enough to care? Hawkeye has used forks and fingernails as weapons before and yes even guns, he'll use anything he can find. So now after his family was killed he's turned into a total nutjob, surprising turn of events? Not to me.

The bad: Thor speaks Asgardian and I didn't buy into his reason for it all that much, Valkyrie's dialogue is amateurish and very high school, relationship seems forced.

The good: Thor's been talking like this since Ultimate Power as early as the JMS issues, whether that was done to cater to Loeb's Ultimates or not it was already something set down before Ultimates 3. Valkyrie has the staples of the 616 one with Pegasus, the sword, blond hair and super strength powers and is actually useful. She still wears skimpy as hell outfits whether it was in the Ultimates #6 or in vol.3 and she looks at more secure despite the bad dialogue.

Now again Loeb tends to have some pretty lame dialogue as my distaste for some of it is known in the 2nd issue and some of the first but I didn't have much problems with the 3rd in that regard.

So, IMO, liking just one run, especially one as unique as Bendis' reign, is not getting what the Avengers is about.
I think Bendis's New Avengers sums up what the Avengers is all about pretty well regardless of power levels, they band together to fight foes no single hero can fight by himself which has been the tag line since it's inception.

Keep in mind that the book did exist prior to "Revolution" so it's not like those initial issues where we have the Avengers Tower, Iron Man, Cap, Sentry and Luke and Spider-Man all in one roof didn't happen.

[Xplicit Content]

Ok, for someone who is completely spacing out a ton of Wolverine backstory, please enlighten me. I'm assuming the war that Wolverine was talking about in his flashback was the Gulf War, seeing as how Wanda would be way too young to be born around any other war. I know Wolvie also has connections to WW2 because of Cap, and I also know that Weapon X happened after that. Did Weapon X also happen after Desert Storm? If Wolvie participated in Desert Storm after Weapon X, then there's no reason why he wouldn't remember that war, right?

I assumed Wolverine remembered everything that happened with Magda because it happened after the Weapon X cutoff. As for why Magneto didn't recognize him when he joined the 'Hood, Wolvie offered up the possibility that Magneto did recognize him, yet chose not to acknowledge him...for some unexplained reason.

[Will.S]

Par for the course, Will delivers another argument completely devoid of logic.
Which is ironic because.....

Consider the following scenarios:

1) Mark likes the characters most associated with Avengers over the years, and has read and enjoyed many creator runs, although he didn't particularly care for Roger Stern's run on the book.

2) Josh does not like the characters most associated with Avengers over the years. He thinks the book has always been campy and boring, and the basic premise behind the team isn't up his alley. But he really likes that one run. You know, the one with Wolverine.

Mark is an Avengers fan.

Josh is not.
.....at what point do the books that Josh reads stop being Avengers books?

If Josh....er rwsmith or any other fan (of both books or one of the books doesn't matter) finds that this Bendis era of Avengers appeals to them then they are is still considered an Avengers fan albeit a new one. What's also interesting is that rwsmith reads Mighty Avengers which doesn't have Wolverine and the other which is still happens to be called "New Avengers".

Both Mark and Josh enjoy Avengers books whether it be the old ones or the new ones and that's all that matters. Mark is not a "better" fan because he liked all the previous ones and dislike a specific run nor is Josh a "worse" fan for not liking old ones and enjoying the recent Avengers titles.

But really in the end, who cares?

[Will.S]

Ok, for someone who is completely spacing out a ton of Wolverine backstory, please enlighten me. I'm assuming the war that Wolverine was talking about in his flashback was the Gulf War, seeing as how Wanda would be way too young to be born around any other war. I know Wolvie also has connections to WW2 because of Cap, and I also know that Weapon X happened after that. Did Weapon X also happen after Desert Storm? If Wolvie participated in Desert Storm after Weapon X, then there's no reason why he wouldn't remember that war, right?
Weapon X definitely happened before Desert Storm. I remember there being a flashback in the Weapon X arc with Wolverine and Nick Fury but I'm not 100% if those were either his memories or just a flashback in general.

But I don't think Wolverine should be remembering much right now, I'll have to get back to you on this one.

[Trey]

Another exciting issue. That's the key in a Loeb comic, he leaves you wanting more. Also Valkyrie is 19, thats how 19 year olds act and talk.

Also Millar had a say in this direction, as Loeb consulted with him.

That last page is HOT.

[Mothmonsterman]

Also Millar had a say in this direction, as Loeb consulted with him.

Yeah, I read that interview, too.

Question: "I heard that most people don't like Ultimates III, but another view is that it is an exciting read full of mystery, brilliantly crafted to intriguing perfection. Would you like to expand on that?"

Loeb: "Yes, as you said, it is an intriguing mystery, as exciting as it is brilliant."

Mind you, I don't buy for a second that Millar had anything whatsoever to do with this.

Have you ever heard of bold-faced lying?

[Mothmonsterman]

If Josh....er rwsmith or any other fan (of both books or one of the books doesn't matter) finds that this Bendis era of Avengers appeals to them then they are is still considered an Avengers fan albeit a new one.

Bull.

If there are thirty different "eras" of a title and you only like one of them, then you're not a fan of that title. You're just a bandwagon fan of the writer.

It is plainly insulting to say otherwise.

[carabas]

In Ultimate Power and Ultimates, Wanda summoned alotta shtuff(alternate Supremes and Asgardian warriors respectively) but it wasn't easy.The alternate Supremes were under Loeb's pen, but un Ultimates 2, Wanda never summoned as much as a kitten. What she did do was increase the probability of Thor showing up (something within the realm of the possible, unlike dinos and such showing up), who then summoned his own armies.

[carabas]

Another exciting issue. That's the key in a Loeb comic, he leaves you wanting more. Also Valkyrie is 19, thats how 19 year olds act and talk.That's how a really dim and incredibly stereotyped 19 year old cheerleader talks; one would expect Thor, as he was established in vols 1 and 2, to have better taste in women.

[End of Time]

So this is Loeb being edgy, by throwing random controversial edgy stuff at his characters, just to see what sticks.

Incest, cuckolding... and mommy-issues... I'll pass.

[Robo Ape]

Anyone got hold of the Cho variant cover?

[ibrakeforchinwe]

Was this a joke? This issue ruined the Ultimates for me, unless they make up for it by issue 5...

[nateslate8]

On another board, I treated a Loeb fan to an essay--roughly three pages in MS word--just detailing what was wrong with THE FIRST PAGE of issue #1.

I'd like that essay. I'll PM you my email if you want to send it.

[Brian M.]

One thing I do wanna learn is why is Wasp leading the team? I think it'd also be kinda important for Loeb to explain Tony's downfall. I mean he was fine after Ultimates 2 #13...well sorta find, he was gonna pin the ankles back on this blonde and then be fine. One of the things hurting this series is that it's only 5 issues so whatever characterization and sub plots Loeb could put in seems to be tossed away b/c of the main plot and the need to get through that. I really wish this series was the normal 12,13 issues that Millar/Hitch had done.

[ThePhenom]

That's how a really dim and incredibly stereotyped 19 year old cheerleader talks; one would expect Thor, as he was established in vols 1 and 2, to have better taste in women.

It did seem very haphanded that he went from enjoying the company of people who were willing to follow his causes to the ends of the Earth to a valley girl who thinks dinosaurs are just swell and kissing Thor is "yumm".

[Brian M.]

It did seem very haphanded that he went from enjoying the company of people who were willing to follow his causes to the ends of the Earth to a valley girl who thinks dinosaurs are just swell and kissing Thor is "yumm".

To be fair...women have the strangest affects on men. I dated a liberal for a while...she was blessed up top. All the conversation in the world can easily be topped by a little loving.

[ThePhenom]

To be fair...women have the strangest affects on men. I dated a liberal for a while...she was blessed up top. All the conversation in the world can easily be topped by a little loving.

Fair point. I can't argue the suspension of disbelief of Thor's character without whining about the Millar vs. Loeb thing, so I will wholeheartedly agree.

[Brian M.]

Fair point. I can't argue the suspension of disbelief of Thor's character without whining about the Millar vs. Loeb thing, so I will wholeheartedly agree.

I'm not saying it's a good development but really, Cap and Thor and Tony have had almost no dialogue this whole series. Plus since we're apprently only veiwing a day or so in their lives, who's to say he's not out there doing all the things he did in Millar's run? He's just taken a break to play a little game of hide the sausage with the 19yr blonde w/ a D cup.

[Beast]

The alternate Supremes were under Loeb's pen, but un Ultimates 2, Wanda never summoned as much as a kitten. What she did do was increase the probability of Thor showing up (something within the realm of the possible, unlike dinos and such showing up), who then summoned his own armies.
Maybe so. But she was also shown turning Longshot into a cat in Ultimate X-Men.

So her powers are a lot more than just probability manipulation. :p

[carabas]

Maybe so. But she was also shown turning Longshot into a cat in Ultimate X-Men.Got an issue number on that? I have no memory of this.

[Beast]

Got an issue number on that? I have no memory of this.
Ultimate X-Men #62 written by Brian K. Vaughan.

[Beerman]

When I took a look at issue three on the racks at Midtown, I couldn't help but say, "Geez, even more crap from Loeb!" And the guys around me started clapping.

Yes, it sucks and I'm glad i'm not buying anymore of this junk.

[Beast]

Ultimate X-Men #62 written by Brian K. Vaughan.
Here you go...

http://images.comicbookresources.com/previews/marvelcomics/ultimatexmen62/1.jpg
http://images.comicbookresources.com/previews/marvelcomics/ultimatexmen62/2.jpg
http://images.comicbookresources.com/previews/marvelcomics/ultimatexmen62/3.jpg
http://images.comicbookresources.com/previews/marvelcomics/ultimatexmen62/4.jpg
http://images.comicbookresources.com/previews/marvelcomics/ultimatexmen62/5.jpg

I don't care what kind of crazy comic book logic you're using.
Turning someone into a cat is more than probablity manipulation.

[Jake V]

Got an issue number on that? I have no memory of this.

#62.

If you don't have the issue, it's in the magnetic north TPB.

[Mothmonsterman]

I'm not saying it's a good development but really, Cap and Thor and Tony have had almost no dialogue this whole series. Plus since we're apprently only veiwing a day or so in their lives, who's to say he's not out there doing all the things he did in Millar's run? He's just taken a break to play a little game of hide the sausage with the 19yr blonde w/ a D cup.

That's not how writing works.

If I get notes back from a studio saying the characters in my script are flat and unlikable, I can't defend my crap writing by telling them that "you just caught the characters on a bad day."

[Brian M.]

EDIT: Nevermind.

[Mothmonsterman]

I'd like that essay. I'll PM you my email if you want to send it.

I looked for it, and it seems to have been pruned.

It was mainly about Loeb's inability to "kill his babies" in reference to Hawkeye's dialogue, his mixed messages regarding Hawyeke's depression even on one page, the painfully forced attempt to seem hip and "edgy" with the sex tape, and the heavy-handed, artless way he handled Millar's incest subtext.

[Mothmonsterman]

My friend, taste isn't a psychological problem. Being mentally unstable and unbalanced is.

What psychological disorder might cause a body to irrationally defend the indefensible?

[Luck911]

I look at this way

Ulimates 1&2 The Godfather a great movie and deep movie,you watch it because of good plot and acting

Ulitimates 3 is like Indepedance Day a Great Movie it is not that deep but fun every time

Both are good in their own way.It is matter of personal taste

[Jake V]

Right.

The book can't defend itself.

The louts who support the book can.

But it's like attacking the teenage girls who made N' Sync one of the most popular pop groups of all time. Sure their music is without much merit, but what difference does pointing that out make?

[Brian M.]

But it's like attacking the teenage girls who made N' Sync one of the most popular pop groups of all time. Sure their music is without much merit, but what difference does pointing that out make?

I'm gonna kill you for comparing me to those N'Sync bastards.

[Jake V]

I'm gonna kill you for comparing me to those N'Sync bastards.

I was comparing you to a teenage girl.

sheesh.

[Mothmonsterman]

But it's like attacking the teenage girls who made N' Sync one of the most popular pop groups of all time. Sure their music is without much merit, but what difference does pointing that out make?

You'd be surprised how fun it is.

Anyway, your analogy isn't without flaw. N*Sync was easy enough to ignore because it was just more noise in the industry. Believe me, there are plenty of terrible comics on the market that I can simply ignore.

But Ultimates III is more like if Justin Timberlake & Co. had replaced the members of Led Zeppelin and started putting out new Zep albums.

[carabas]

Ulitimates 3 is like Indepedance Day a Great Movie it is not that deep but fun every time.Ugh, no. I get great nausea attacks whenever Will Smith wnders onto the screen, followed by big honking migraines when they start talking about computer viruses.
all you need to see from Independance Day is the trailer. Got all the good bits in it and makes the movie itself entirely superfluous.

Edit: yep, Ultimates 3 is very much like ID4, only without the neat special effects.

[Trey]

In honor of Moth, I will now post all my replies on CBR using nothing but Ultimates 3 dialogue. For one Mo