BND: Why no old villains?

[Kirayoshi]

I've noticed something interesting about ASM since Brand New Day started. All the villains Spider-Man's faced thus far are new. Mr. Negative. The Freak. Menace.

While I don't have a problem with introducing new villains once in a while, what happened to his established rogues gallery? Spider-Man had one of the best stables of cool villains of any superhero, so where are they?

Sure we got Norman Osbourne and Venom over in T-Bolts, but they haven't run into Spider-Man lately. Where's Doctor Octopus? Where's Vulture? Electro? Hobgoblin?

Hell, I'd take Mindworm and Big Wheel at this point!

This lack of established villains in favor of all new(and thus far not overly memorable) villains is one more reason I have doubts as to what's going on with ASM post-OMD. Sure, we're bringing back some of the old supporting cast(although MJ is still mysteriously absent, and no I don't think Jackpot is MJ) but without a few of the classic villains, it just don't seem the same.

[kello]

I would assume this is to benefit new readers, as well as stay away from having to answer all the continuity questions. I know that the writers have talked about their favorite villains in panels at comiccons and stuff. So I think it's just a matter of time.

[JohnnyC]

They will return. The writers have talked extensively about one of their rules being that they wouldn't use the classic villains for the first six months. At first I loved the idea, and then I saw Paper Doll and Freak...

[lazlo_toth]

They want to wow us with their bold originality by ripping off story ideas from thirty years ago and crafting bold new exciting villains with catchy, unique names. MENACE! FREAK!

I heard that the wanted to have a guy named Dr. Evil too, but somebody reminded JQ the name was taken already...

[Will.S]

While most of the new villain names are pretty lame, I will say that focusing on creating new villains is the best thing to happen to the books. I know we all love the staple Spider-Man villains and all but I think at this point we should be getting more new ones that might have a chance at being classic a few years down the road.

JMS tried to do the whole new villains thing as but none of them ever stuck since he only wanted them to be "one shot" villains outside of the Goblin twins who had a recurring roles in Spectacular.

[Kirayoshi]

I heard that the wanted to have a guy named Dr. Evil too, but somebody reminded JQ the name was taken already...To which JQ no doubt replied; "Okay people, I've been in suspended animation for thirty years now, I need to know these things. Throw me a frickin' bone here! I'm the boss, need the info!"

[Blader5489]

So let me get this straight: people bitch and moan about wanting new stuff, and claim that BND is a rehash of old stories, but then clamor for all of the old villains that have been done to death? Am I understanding this correctly?

[DeadXMan]

So let me get this straight: people bitch and moan about wanting new stuff, and claim that BND is a rehash of old stories, but then clamor for all of the old villains that have been done to death? Am I understanding this correctly?

yep that it.

see when dealing with hatters you must remove the assumption of they are using logic and reasoning for their case.

[Matt Linton]

To answer the original question, Dan Slott and JRjr are doing an arc in a few months that features some of the classic villains. And Curt Connors is showing up in Bob Gale's arc.

[DanU]

I have no problem if they want to try something new. That's how every character is created to begin with. JMS created Morlun who I personally enjoyed reading about in a few stories. Obviously Stern creating Hobgoblin was a nice treat for all of us. I also heard that some old villians will eventually return. At least the ones that are not dead or captured. Just got around to reading Avengers: The Initiative #3 and Boomerang, Hydro-Man and the Shocker were all captured and sent to the Negative Zone.

[DaeJi]

They are trying (trying) to recapture the feeling of the early years of Spider-Man; all of the old villains were new once.

[ZT4]

Marvel have been very hesitant to use the rouges gallery because Spidey used to set the bar for new, memorable villains that became insanely popular based on their writing.

Morlun is quite memorable, the problem with him though is that he was barely used after "Coming Home" when he should have been the primary advesary of JMS's entire run, and had the totem stuff build to something more epic that didnt involve an Ezekeil heel turn.

Slott's Mr. Negative is about one of the few positives regarding BND, and he's hardly going to be wasted as much as Morlun was

[Dr. Chaos]

This lack of established villains in favor of all new(and thus far not overly memorable) villains is one more reason I have doubts as to what's going on with ASM post-OMD
This is actually one of my favorite aspects.

There was a time period in Amazing where every villain felt fresh, exciting and different, with the exception of random color Goblin #1187 aka Menace, I love the idea of alot of the concepts talked about for characters like Paper Doll and Freak.

I'm also anxious to see where Mr. Negative goes from here.

As it's been mentioned, the regulars and old standbys will be back but I'm not in any hurry to see Spider-Man beat the crap out of Shocker or The Vulture again for the umpteenth time right now.

[DeadXMan]

This is actually one of my favorite aspects.

There was a time period in Amazing where every villain felt fresh, exciting and different, with the exception of random color Goblin #1187 aka Menace, I love the idea of alot of the concepts talked about for characters like Paper Doll and Freak.

I'm also anxious to see where Mr. Negative goes from here.

As it's been mentioned, the regulars and old standbys will be back but I'm not in any hurry to see Spider-Man beat the crap out of Shocker or The Vulture again for the umpteenth time right now.


But you have Spidey commenting on that he facing another Goblin villian, which I liked.

[Lombardo!]

man Doc Ock is due for some panel-time

and no thanks, not 'movie version' Doc Ock, if that's okay.

who's idea it was for him to get around in nothing but goggles and a bathrobe is beyond me.

but seriously, i want Doc Ock with some nasty attachments to surprise Spidey.

maybe take off a limb or something. THAT'LL get Spidey fans' attention!

BRAND NEW DAY: ONE LEG SPIDEY!

and then eventually it merges into the Spider-Girl universe.

leaving the 616 to pick up where it left off before OMD

...

wow, i took that way further than i planned.

[Chachi]

Wizard says that August and September are when the classic rogues will return, and each issue ends with a WTF cliffhanger.

[Leocomix]

It had to be called Brand New Day for something.

[rZi]

Joe Quesada made a rule for BND - no old rogue gallery for the first 6 months.

He says they have had enough spotlight as it were and this is the time for the new creative team to put some fresh blood in the title, which i think is a good idea.

[Mister Mets]

They had a few reasons.

It makes sense to avoid older villains for a little bit, so that when they do appear, their previous appearances aren't mentioned, as that could result in some continuity problems.

It goes with the idea of a new direction in the Spider-Man franchise to introduce new villains.

It makes the eventual return of the big villains (in a six-part storyline by Dan Slott and John Romita Jr) a big deal.

I don't think anyone has ever complained about there being too many great Spider-Man villains.

[PatchMadripoor]

This isn't reality, it's a fake made up by the Beyonder playing "mephisto" (see the Illuminati).

[tromataker]

Any truth to them debuting a new villain named "Butthole"?

[lazlo_toth]

[
So let me get this straight: people bitch and moan about wanting new stuff, and claim that BND is a rehash of old stories, but then clamor for all of the old villains that have been done to death? Am I understanding this correctly?

Uh, no. You definitely did not hear me clamoring for any of this bollocks.

And my point is that the “new” villains are so contrived and unoriginal that I wonder why they bothered in the first place. I mean, come on. Menace? What’s next? The Antagonist? Evildoer? Oh, wait, next up is Freak. I guess “Misfit” and “Outsider” were already taken…and if we’re going to talk about “done to death,” I say the concept of a guy riding around on a flying sno-board with an itch to knock the crap out of Spider-Man is “done to death.” If they come up with a deranged scientist who has fourteen elongating artificial limbs and calls himself Prof. Kraken, will you consider that fresh and new, or would you just rather they write a good Doc Ock story?
This reminds me of that stretch in the 90s where every single character had a name ending in “strike” or “hawk.” You can say what you want about JMS (I for one hated Sins Past, and I hold him partially responsible for that abortion no matter how much JQ had to do with it as well), but at least he was doing some things I’d never seen before, and still managed to fit in the requisite wise-cracking and existential gloom without which you could not have Spider-Man. I understand people who say they don’t want to read about Spidey beating the tar out of Electro for the umpteenth time, but some of these same people seem perfectly content to read about Peter Parker being broke and living in Aunt May’s basement for the umpteenth time, so I have a hard time taking that at face value…



see when dealing with hatters you must remove the assumption of they are using logic and reasoning for their case.

Well, hatters were awfully prone to mercury poisoning in the old days due to the fact that they handled it all the time since it was a key component in the making of felt. This is where the phrase “mad as a hatter” came from. My question is what the hell does an obsolete trade have to do with Spider-Man? :p

[skinnyhoops]

Any truth to them debuting a new villain named "Butthole"?

Butthole is really taking off and will debute with his sidekick "A** Jack"

[Matt Linton]

[

Uh, no. You definitely did not hear me clamoring for any of this bollocks.

And my point is that the “new” villains are so contrived and unoriginal that I wonder why they bothered in the first place. I mean, come on. Menace? What’s next? The Antagonist? Evildoer? Oh, wait, next up is Freak. I guess “Misfit” and “Outsider” were already taken…

Yeah, and what's up with all the lame animal villains? Doc Ock? The Lizard? The Scorpion? What's next, the Monkey?


and if we’re going to talk about “done to death,” I say the concept of a guy riding around on a flying sno-board with an itch to knock the crap out of Spider-Man is “done to death.”

They've had four Green Goblins (Norman, Harry, Harry's shrink, and Phil Urich), at least two Hobgoblins, and two Jack 'O Lanterns. I'd say that ship has already sailed.


If they come up with a deranged scientist who has fourteen elongating artificial limbs and calls himself Prof. Kraken, will you consider that fresh and new, or would you just rather they write a good Doc Ock story?

Depends on the story. If they use the new character in a way that wouldn't work with a pre-existing character, than I'd say do that.


This reminds me of that stretch in the 90s where every single character had a name ending in “strike” or “hawk.” You can say what you want about JMS (I for one hated Sins Past, and I hold him partially responsible for that abortion no matter how much JQ had to do with it as well), but at least he was doing some things I’d never seen before, and still managed to fit in the requisite wise-cracking and existential gloom without which you could not have Spider-Man. I understand people who say they don’t want to read about Spidey beating the tar out of Electro for the umpteenth time, but some of these same people seem perfectly content to read about Peter Parker being broke and living in Aunt May’s basement for the umpteenth time, so I have a hard time taking that at face value…

Because one of those things is the setting, and one of them is the actual story.

[666andahalf]

I have absolutely no problem with new villains (and to a lesser extent copy-cats) just so as long as they're interesting and used in a new and/or creative way. With the exception of Carlyle and Ezekiel (and to a much lesser extent Morlun), I never found JMS's new villains all that interesting or entertaining. BND's villains are a step in the right direction, but they are far from getting me excited about them. For that matter, Jackpot is the only character that really has me intrigued.

[DeadXMan]

Yeah, and what's up with all the lame animal villains? Doc Ock? The Lizard? The Scorpion? What's next, the Monkey?



They've had four Green Goblins (Norman, Harry, Harry's shrink, and Phil Urich), at least two Hobgoblins, and two Jack 'O Lanterns. I'd say that ship has already sailed.



Depends on the story. If they use the new character in a way that wouldn't work with a pre-existing character, than I'd say do that.



Because one of those things is the setting, and one of them is the actual story.



you forgot the goblin chick from the future

[Verminous]

you forgot the goblin chick from the future

...........and the Demo-Goblin;)

[666andahalf]

...........and the Demo-Goblin;)

... and the Grey Goblin! :D

Damn there's been a lot of goblin-themed villains... dear God... did they really need to make Menace a goblin villain too?

Spidey needs to keep with the Sith rule of 2.

Green Goblin / Hobgoblin
Venom / Carnage
Lizard / Stegron
... etcetera...

[Crimson]

Yeah, and what's up with all the lame animal villains? Doc Ock? The Lizard? The Scorpion? What's next, the Monkey?


I don't get your arguement... is it sarcasm? You just listed three characters created by Stan Lee.

The Animal rouges have been a huge part of Spider-Man's gallery since he started. If you're complaining about it, it's hard to see why you care about the rouge's in the first place.

[DeadXMan]

... and the Grey Goblin! :D

Damn there's been a lot of goblin-themed villains... dear God... did they really need to make Menace a goblin villain too?

Spidey needs to keep with the Sith rule of 2.

Green Goblin / Hobgoblin
Venom / Carnage
Lizard / Stegron
... etcetera...


they kinda did a way with that in SW Legacy

[DeadXMan]

Yeah, and what's up with all the lame animal villains? Doc Ock? The Lizard? The Scorpion? What's next, the Monkey?



The mandrill actually.

I fine with the animal themed villains, as long as they don't use something stupid like a walirus.... ;)

[StoneGold]

The mandrill actually.

I fine with the animal themed villains, as long as they don't use something stupid like a walirus.... ;)

I'm assuming you actually know about this guy then...

http://www.headinjurytheater.com/images/marvel%20alpha%20walrus.jpg

[DeadXMan]

can't say that I do.

It is as if some evil force has removed him my memory
and looking at the pic I'm glad he did.;)

[Matt Linton]

I don't get your arguement... is it sarcasm? You just listed three characters created by Stan Lee.

The Animal rouges have been a huge part of Spider-Man's gallery since he started. If you're complaining about it, it's hard to see why you care about the rouge's in the first place.

Yes, it's sarcasm. Someone complaining that "Menace" and "Freak" are lame names for villains could just as easily complain that "the Lizard" and "the Scorpion" are lame names. And those two turned out to be classic Spider-Man villains.

[Mister Mets]

This isn't reality, it's a fake made up by the Beyonder playing "mephisto" (see the Illuminati).That could be another reason to introduce new villains. There's the implicit argument "Why would we waste so much time and effort to create new villains if they're never going to be seen again." It does counter the idea that this is all in a pocket universe.

[CyberHubbs]

Doctor Octopus. DOCTOR. OCTOPUS.

Seriously. DOCTOR OCTOPUS! Keep that in mind when you start throwing stones at names like Menace and Freak.

Anyway. Spider-Man needs new villains. I imagine that's one of the points of it being called Brand New Day.

[The Master Meglomaniac]

How many of new these villain won't be flash in the pan creations that won't be forgotten in a year?

[gorthon616]

Because at that point then they just might as well save themselves the money and just re-print the old issues.

[rZi]

How many of new these villain won't be flash in the pan creations that won't be forgotten in a year?

I think they will be like the JMS villians, i.e. specfic to his run

[The Master Meglomaniac]

I think they will be like the JMS villians, i.e. specfic to his run

So they are flash in the pan creations that will forgotten in a year. That makes them pretty boring. When is the last time someone created a villain that other writers wanted to use?

[Matt Linton]

Venom, most likely. That's true of most superhero comics, though.

[Will.S]

So they are flash in the pan creations that will forgotten in a year. That makes them pretty boring. When is the last time someone created a villain that other writers wanted to use?
I think the JMS villains can be used again to great effect if the writer uses them well.

Digger, Carlyle (Doc Ock looking dude in green outfit) and Charlie are science based and can be easily brought back. One could also use Shathra, Shade, and Morlun for Dr. Strange etc.

[Matt Linton]

Digger's probably my favorite villain from the JMS run. I'd like to see him come back.

[Verminous]

So they are flash in the pan creations that will forgotten in a year. That makes them pretty boring. When is the last time someone created a villain that other writers wanted to use?

First, where did you get your crystal ball? Cos' I sure could use one. Also don't you think it's better to try and create new villains wether they succeed or fail will then depend on the writers. I respect them for at least trying and would it be possible to reserve judgement on them until, well until we actually read a comic with them in?

[Crimson]

Yes, it's sarcasm. Someone complaining that "Menace" and "Freak" are lame names for villains could just as easily complain that "the Lizard" and "the Scorpion" are lame names. And those two turned out to be classic Spider-Man villains.

Good.... I was lost for a second there.

I tried to google for the Marvel Team Up panel of Invincible explaining to Spider-Man (and an off pnael Batman in Invincible) why his name is so lazy. No luck.

[TomServo]

I'm assuming you actually know about this guy then...

http://www.headinjurytheater.com/images/marvel%20alpha%20walrus.jpg

Goo Goo G'joob!!!

[TomServo]

[
If they come up with a deranged scientist who has fourteen elongating artificial limbs and calls himself Prof. Kraken, will you consider that fresh and new, or would you just rather they write a good Doc Ock story?

:D Dude. That's good stuff. I actually laughed out loud while reading the name "Prof. Kraken". Thanks for that.

[The Master Meglomaniac]

First, where did you get your crystal ball? Cos' I sure could use one. Also don't you think it's better to try and create new villains wether they succeed or fail will then depend on the writers. I respect them for at least trying and would it be possible to reserve judgement on them until, well until we actually read a comic with them in?

Yes, because clearly the Bookie, with his super betting powers is the greatest villain of the decade.

[Matt Linton]

Yes, because clearly the Bookie, with his super betting powers is the greatest villain of the decade.

One of the most memorable characters from Miller's Daredevil run was Turk, a street level punk who Daredevil could shake down for information or toss in jail.

[Just a Shadow]

You know, as much as I absolutely loathe BND, the decision to not use old villains seems like a good idea given the context. BND fucked the hell out of Spider-Man continuity and it'll take them some time to figure out who and what were affected by it. It'd be stupid to bring in some old characters only to have in some way retcon the appearance because something about the history of that character with spider-man has changed because of BND.

[worstblogever]

I'm still hoping it's all taking place in a pocket reality created by Mephisto.

I know it's an empty belief, but hey, that's why they call it hope. And as Morgan Freeman said in Shawshank Redemption... "Hope can be a dangerous thing."

Barring that, let 'em have fun with noob villains.

[Just a Shadow]

I'm still hoping it's all taking place in a pocket reality created by Mephisto.

I know it's an empty belief, but hey, that's why they call it hope. And as Morgan Freeman said in Shawshank Redemption... "Hope can be a dangerous thing."

Barring that, let 'em have fun with noob villains.

That would make me so happy

[worstblogever]

Digger's probably my favorite villain from the JMS run. I'd like to see him come back.

I thought Digger was a Gamma-Spawned Gestalt of Undead Awesome, as well. The name... well... they could've done better than Digger. But the concept was kinda cool.

[Verminous]

Yes, because clearly the Bookie, with his super betting powers is the greatest villain of the decade.

Ummmm....I just have no idea, none. What are you talking about? :confused:

[The Master Meglomaniac]

One of the most memorable characters from Miller's Daredevil run was Turk, a street level punk who Daredevil could shake down for information or toss in jail.

He was comic relief, that a serious villain like the bookie has been promoted as.


Ummmm....I just have no idea, none. What are you talking about? :confused:

The bookieis one of the new villains, he bets on fights between heroes and vilains, that was already done years ago in Spidey titles when 4 millionaire would hire villains and sick them on Spuidey, then would boroad cast and place bets on the results. So he is a rehash of concept they already did.

[Mister Mets]

Ummmm....I just have no idea, none. What are you talking about? :confused:He made a brief appearance in Swing Shift, and will be the focus of a two-part Guggenheim tale. He's a guy who makes bets on the outcome of superhero battles.

I don't get the expectation that every supervillain has to be a Hobgoblin level mastermind, so I don't mind obviously minor villains like the Bookie.

[Matt Linton]

He was comic relief, that a serious villain like the bookie has been promoted as.



The bookieis one of the new villains, he bets on fights between heroes and vilains, that was already done years ago in Spidey titles when 4 millionaire would hire villains and sick them on Spuidey, then would boroad cast and place bets on the results. So he is a rehash of concept they already did.

I don't think he's been pushed as a "serious villain". I've read interviews where they've said he's a cool character and fun to write, but that's about it.

It's nice that based on a brief appearance and some general talk about the character you can be so certain that it's a rehash of a concept they already did. Given that there've probably been close to a thousand or more Spider-Man comics published, I'd be surprised if you couldn't take any villain an find a similar one from another issue.

[TomServo]

Given that there've probably been close to a thousand or more Spider-Man comics published, I'd be surprised if you couldn't take any villain an find a similar one from another issue.

That applies not only to villains, but to stories in general. At this point it would be very difficult to write a story that doesn't bear at least a passing resemblance to some other Spider-Man story. That's just one of the curses of such longevity.