Confirmed - Pats been cheating since 2000

[Lord Destiny]

Looks like the other thread was deleted. So I offer this as a quick hit before it, too, gets sanctioned.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=ap-goodell-specter&prov=ap&type=lgns

Here's the first few paragraphs. But click that link above while you still can!



Belichick has been taping since 2000, Goodell tells Specter

By LAURIE KELLMAN, Associated Press Writer
February 13, 2008

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Bill Belichick has been illegally taping opponents' defensive signals since he became the New England Patriots' coach in 2000, according to Sen. Arlen Specter, who said NFL commissioner Roger Goodell told him that during a meeting Wednesday.

"There was confirmation that there has been taping since 2000, when Coach Belichick took over," Specter said.

Specter said Goodell gave him that information during the 1-hour, 40-minute meeting, which was requested by Specter so the commissioner could explain his reasons for destroying the Spygate tapes and notes.

[DungeonmasterJim]

From a reporter today at Foxsports:

8. Conclusion to Spygate: This needs to be done for the good of the game. There have been simply too many rumors out there regarding what the Patriots and Bill Belichick did when it came to videotaping opponents' sidelines. Sen. Arlen Specter met with NFL commissioner Roger Goodell on Wednesday. Specter said he was told by Goodell that Belichick has been illegally taping opponents' defensive signals since he became the Patriots' coach in 2000. Whether something comes of Goodell's conversation with Specter remains to be seen. Still, the story about the Pats taping the Rams' final walk-through on the Saturday prior to their upset win in Super Bowl XXXVI seems far-fetched. I was in the Superdome that day and mostly the Rams ran around playing catch waiting to take their team picture while waiting on late owner Georgia Frontiere to arrive. The Rams were worried about spies at the Saints' practice facility that week, but the Superdome was very secure. Remember, it was the first Super Bowl after 9-11 and the FBI was out in force.

DM Jim

[NatGertler]

Patriots now being sued (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/football/nfl/02/15/patriots.sued.ap/index.html?eref=rss_topstories) for past offenses.

[Lord Destiny]

One video-taper is willing to hand over his tapes, if he's granted immunity from prosecution.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/F/FBN_MATT_WALSH_TAPES?SITE=OHCIN&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

[sgt pepper]

Where's that angry Pats fan now?

[DungeonmasterJim]

Where's that angry Pats fan now?

Not sure if you're refering to me. A bunch of us are discussing this issue regularly in the COMM off-season football thread. I forget about this one unless it pops up on the CBR forum listing as the most recent posting in this area.

DM Jim

[Perry Holley]

Not sure if you're refering to me.I'm pretty certain that he was referring to the person who started the previous (now-deleted) thread berating Steven for daring to broach the subject.

Said person, besides being an asshat, was also a ban-evader, which is why they're gone now.

[Brother Zag]

Hello...

I'm a Pats fan.

As Belichick has stated, he made a judgment call interpreting the NFL's video taping rule per opposing team signals. His interpretation was wrong.

The taping ceased in the first quarter of one of the first games of the season when the Jets asked the NFL to stop the Patriots' actions... actions the Jets themselves had been accused of last season by the Pats, who DID NOTturn Mangini and his staff over to the league.

Similar to the steroids scandal, the Patriots got caught doing what every other team was doing... since they got caught, the spotlight fell on them. It could also be argued that the Jets violated the don't ask/don't tell policy per videotaping that most of the NFL was operating under... as long as it wasn't challenged, teams could do it. The Jets made the challenge.

Belichick doesn't deny he did this. The tapes clearly show the Jets's coaches sending in their signals.

Now, anything more above and beyond this is pure conjecture. Matt Walsh, who it is rumored has additional videotapes, has not spoken to the media or to the NFL, so anything he might have has not been revealed to the public. Lots of folks are saying it could be THIS or it could be THAT... but no one actually has been told anything! This is from today's Boston Globe:


The Boston Herald, citing an anonymous source, reported Feb. 2 that the Patriots taped the walkthrough prior to their win over St. Louis, but coach Bill Belichick told the Globe last Sunday he has never seen another team's practice film prior to a game, never taped a walkthrough during his coaching career, not even those of his own teams, and said he couldn't pick Walsh out of a lineup.

Should you care for, oh, I don't know, actual FACTS, the article is here:

http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/articles/2008/02/21/progressing_toward_deal/

[Lord Destiny]

I do not believe for a single second that Belichick doesn't know who Matt Walsh is. What kind of coach has people on the payroll whom they've never seen? Belichick is a micromanager, involved in everything. It's not in his nature to be some kind of disconnected overseer.

And why should I believe Belichick doesn't look at practice film before a game? If he's not watching it, what's the point? Why waste those resources? And even if he didn't watch the tape himself, that does not prove that a staffer didn't do it and his coordinators viewed it.

Be very wary of parsing of words. That kind of gaming with definitions is what got him in this mess to begin with (insofar as him thinking he'd get away with it). If Belichick says *he* hasn't taped, that doesn't mean he didn't order it.

These are mere claims on Belichick's part. Easy to say. But how does he prove it? Because as it stands, all the hard evidence points toward guilt, and none to his innocence. In the court of law and of public opinion, truth is found by weighing the facts presented by each side. So far I haven't seen a single fact on his side.

And speaking of facts, it is not a fact that "everybody else does it." That's an assertion to deflect damage from this scandal.

[4thHorseman]

I could care less. Watching film from another team doesn't make you superior. Every team in every sport cheats in some way shape or form, and I have no doubt about that. Whether it's drugs, paying off the refs, etc. Watching practice film is no biggy when you can turn on the tv, watch the game, and see them run essentially the same stuff, still see the play calls and signals from the coaches, etc.

Course, I haven't read too much into this because I could care less. Patriots are a good team whether they watched the films or not

[Brother Zag]

I'm sure Coach Belichick watches a ton of game video. He's known for his analysis. I'll believe him when he says he doesn't watch the rest, as I believe him when he says the videotaping was a question of interpretation and his was wrong according to the league. You can choose to not take the man at his word, I get that. He's the man the rest of you love to hate, I get that, too. We hate it when our friends become successful...

I'm a Patriots fan, and I have been since I was around four years old. Jim Plunket was their quarterback around then. But I digress. I'm biased, is all, so these cries of "cheater!" sound juvenile and naive to me. The "rules" are subject to constant "interpretation", just like the rules in any business. Football is a business. The most clever at their work find every way to work the rules to benefit their organization. Football is a competitive game with billions of dollars in play. Every team is looking for an edge, a competitive advantage. All teams push the rules as far as they can. The NFL and their teams brush off HGH use by their players with short suspensions, for pete's sake. When this "scandal" went down there were both players and coaches who said "every team does it" and people who said "MY team would never do that". Whether or not a team does this specific thing (And I would bet most won't be trying to, now...), every team has its own questionable interpretations of some of the NFL's rules. As the man would say, "It is what it is..."

And IT is being completely blown out of proportion.
But I could be wrong... I'm a Patriots fan.

[Lord Destiny]

The mushrooming of "hatin'" the Patriots happened after the scandal broke. Belichick was respected even by "haters," until a source (if not the source) of his unparalleled genius was exposed.

I doubt the victims of Belichick's schemes would say this is overblown. The more those foes think about this the more ways they see they've been had.

But the notion that it's "no biggy" that one team taped the practice of another team is wholly without merit. Otherwise teams would never have closed practices. No, the advantage should be obvious. Every team tries to add new wrinkles for each opponent, in the hopes of catching them unawares. (So watching previous game film is by no means equitable to taping this week's practice.) Getting video of a team running through new plays would be a MONUMENTAL advantage. As would be video of what signals will be used.

Patriot fans can justify and rationalize if they choose. I guess that's just a natural survival reflex. "They hate us." "Everybody does it." "It didn't help that much." All offered as excuses, and all empty of validity. But the simple fact remains. New England cheated in ways not seen before. And benefitted to a degree almost as rare. And their achievements are now seen in a new light.

[DungeonmasterJim]

"They hate us." "Everybody does it." "It didn't help that much." All offered as excuses, and all empty of validity. But the simple fact remains. New England cheated in ways not seen before. And benefitted to a degree almost as rare. And their achievements are now seen in a new light.

I've been hearing from friends that Mike Golic played on teams that had players designated to watch the signals of other teams and do exactly what the Patriots did. But back then they used players instead of video cameras. I'm not seeing what the Patriots did as something not seen before.

Also, the Patriots got caught and couldn't use those tapes this year. First they mauled opponents to the point of some fans and even players saying that the Patriots disrespected the game. Then as the Patriots got everyone's best games but then the games got closer to where people questioned the Patriots overall. Still, they had the first undefeated regular season in 35 years. And then beat two top teams in the play-off's. All without cheating. I don't think those tapes were that great of an advantage as people think. Teams regularly toss out game plans during games if the score gets lopsided in a hurry and have to adjust. Or any number of factors can change to during game. I think relying on tapes of signals can help but relying on them or using them as an excuse for winning is vastly overstating their use. The players still have to make the plays. I'm getting the feeling that people that hold up the tapes of proof of Patriot victories seem to forget that.

DM Jim

[NatGertler]

Similar to the steroids scandal, the Patriots got caught doing what every other team was doing... since they got caught, the spotlight fell on them. It could also be argued that the Jets violated the don't ask/don't tell policy per videotaping that most of the NFL was operating under... as long as it wasn't challenged, teams could do it. The Jets made the challenge.Ah, the "but Mom! Everyone else was doing it! And besides, Mikey's a snitch for tellin' on me!" defense.

[bartl]

As Belichick has stated, he made a judgment call interpreting the NFL's video taping rule per opposing team signals. His interpretation was wrong.

The taping ceased in the first quarter of one of the first games of the season when the Jets asked the NFL to stop the Patriots' actions... actions the Jets themselves had been accused of last season by the Pats, who DID NOTturn Mangini and his staff over to the league.
So, Belichick clearly thought it was only wrong when OTHER teams did it.

[Brother Zag]

The mushrooming of "hatin'" the Patriots happened after the scandal broke. Belichick was respected even by "haters," until a source (if not the source) of his unparalleled genius was exposed.

If you believe that this one incident is the "source" of all these years of Patriots victories, you don't really have a grasp of the game of football. If you believe that they have done all these other things for which there is no actual proof or evidence... well, then you're basing your beliefs on hearsay.


New England cheated in ways not seen before. And benefitted to a degree almost as rare. And their achievements are now seen in a new light.

Again, completely unfounded statements. And the very fact that the Jets were caught doing this a year ago means it was not a rarity.

[Brother Zag]

Ah, the "but Mom! Everyone else was doing it! And besides, Mikey's a snitch for tellin' on me!" defense.

Of course, lol! And I'm takin' my ball and goin' home!

It's the game of football. Everyone IS looking for an edge.

The current blow-up of all this wouldn't even have occurred if an irate Philadelphia Eagles fan, a regular, well-known twice weekly (at least) caller into the Philadelphia sports radio talk shows, Senator Arlen Spector of Pennsylvania, didn't have a bully pulpit from which to spout accusations. Just because he's a US Senator doesn't mean he's any less a Philly Phanatic!

And, really, there are some other tapes he should REALLY be making a much bigger fuss about folks erasing...

[Brother Zag]

So, Belichick clearly thought it was only wrong when OTHER teams did it.

Belichick complained to Mangini, who blew off the complaint. Figuring Mangini saw nothing wrong with the practice, Belichick was playing the turnabout is fair play card.

[DoctorDoom]

Well whatever going to come, will come. I don;t hate the Pats or their coach. I just want to hear all the facts.

[Nick Soapdish]

Belichick complained to Mangini, who blew off the complaint. Figuring Mangini saw nothing wrong with the practice, Belichick was playing the turnabout is fair play card.

Two problems with that particular theory.

The Pats did tape in the season before. They taped the Packers, the Packers complained, and they stopped. Did Belichick also have a problem with Mike McCarthy?

And Goodell had just sent out a memo to clarify the rules on taping to remove any loopholes that teams might've imagined were there.

[Lord Destiny]

[blah, blah, blah] you don't really have a grasp of the game of football [blah, blah, blah]

You're gonna have to do better than that. So far, your entire argument is based on "if you don't see it the way I do, you don't know football".

Weak.

Belicheck admitted he's been taping since 2000. Argument over.

[Lord Destiny]

The current blow-up of all this wouldn't even have occurred if an irate Philadelphia Eagles fan, a regular, well-known twice weekly (at least) caller into the Philadelphia sports radio talk shows, Senator Arlen Spector of Pennsylvania, didn't have a bully pulpit from which to spout accusations. Just because he's a US Senator doesn't mean he's any less a Philly Phanatic!

This is the last thing I say to you. You're too irrational. Reread what you posted above.

You're saying Spectre is investigating just because he's an Eagles fan. That is by far the most unfounded statement posted in this, or the other, thread.

People in glass houses...

[Lord Destiny]

I've been hearing from friends that Mike Golic played on teams that had players designated to watch the signals of other teams and do exactly what the Patriots did. But back then they used players instead of video cameras. I'm not seeing what the Patriots did as something not seen before.

If those players had perfect photographic memory, then the difference isn't that great--especially if they used the same player every game so he'd have a perfect database of patterns, styles, etc.

If not, then putting together such a database would definitely be different. And think about how NFL teams break down film. The Pats would have, for easy reference, every signal used in every situation. 3rd and long vs 3rd and short (and so on). Easy to find patterns when you have that much video reference.


Also, the Patriots got caught and couldn't use those tapes this year.

Here's the problem with the destruction of that evidence. Did the Pats hand over just the primary tapes (of the games, etc, themselves)? Were there secondary tapes included (broken down, situation by situation)?

Thanks to Goodell, we don't know exactly what was handed over. We don't know what wasn't. And given Belicheck's parsing of words, any time he said "tapes" he could have only been meaning the in-game tapes, not any secondary tapes.

But we do know that at least one person claims to have video that wasn't destroyed. So the question about the tapes have not been fully resolved.



First they mauled opponents to the point of some fans and even players saying that the Patriots disrespected the game.

They definitely ran up the score against Dallas. Up by 14 with 5 seconds to go, NE has 4th down on the Dallas 2 yd line--and they run it in for a score. Totally unnecessary. Kneel downs are the appropriate thing at that point.

And they were throwing the ball like crazy against Miami, when they were up 3 or 4 TDs in the 4th quarter. The sportsman thing to do is run the ball or use ball-control passing, just to move the chains and eat up clock. But NE was going deep.


All without cheating.

There's no way to know that, since we don't know exactly what was handed over.


I don't think those tapes were that great of an advantage as people think. [snip] I think relying on tapes of signals can help but relying on them or using them as an excuse for winning is vastly overstating their use.

Let's play a game of poker. You let me see your hand, but you can't see mine. Is that a fair game? We still have to play the cards we're dealt.

By the end of the night, I would have all your money. Guaranteed.


The players still have to make the plays. I'm getting the feeling that people that hold up the tapes of proof of Patriot victories seem to forget that.

"They still have to make plays?" And is it easier or harder to make those plays when you know what your opponent is doing? See, that's the key. If you know a defense is going to blitz, and you know where it's coming from, you can totally obliterate that defense. The key to sports is for your opponent to NOT know what you're doing.

During the SB against Philly, every time the Eagles called a blitz NE called a screen (the one play that was designed to counter the blitz). NE called an unsual number of screens. Luck? Good gameplanning? It sounded like it... until the cheating scandal broke. Now we are intellectually bound to reconsider that "luck."

Ask any major league slugger what would happen if he knew the pitch ahead of time. He'd knock it out of the park every time.

I'm shocked this is so hard to understand. It's a universal truth about any competition.

[Brother Zag]

This is the last thing I say to you. You're too irrational. Reread what you posted above.

You're saying Spectre is investigating just because he's an Eagles fan. That is by far the most unfounded statement posted in this, or the other, thread.

People in glass houses...

If Spectre is investigating, does that mean James Bond is on the Pats side?

Yeah, you know, you do strike me as the sort of person who ends an argument by sticking their fingers in their ears saying, "la la la I'm not listening to you la la la la."

If it was just me, that would be one thing. Here's an article from Sports Illustrated, entitled "Specter interest in Spygate doesn't pass smell test" (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/dave_zirin/02/27/spygate/)

So, um, there!

[Brother Zag]

Here's the problem with the destruction of that evidence. Did the Pats hand over just the primary tapes (of the games, etc, themselves)? Were there secondary tapes included (broken down, situation by situation)?

Thanks to Goodell, we don't know exactly what was handed over. We don't know what wasn't. And given Belicheck's parsing of words, any time he said "tapes" he could have only been meaning the in-game tapes, not any secondary tapes.


You need facts, not assumptions. Fact is those tapes were confiscated at the game by the NFL in the first quarter of the Jets game. Taken on the spot. Hard to copy a tape when they grab the camera with the tape in it.

And again, much as you want to make a fuss: The "other" tapes you mention have not been viewed by anyone other than Matt Walsh. He has not spoken on the record to anyone. There's also no telling if those tapes he has were made at the command of Belichick, and Belichick says he doesn't remember the guy.

The rest is speculation and conjecture, and it is not CONFIRMED that the Pats have been taping since 2000, despite what you titled the thread.

I know you hate to believe that Belichick is a good coach, and are salivating to destroy any claim to "genius" on his part, but every example you offer for possible cheating comes down to strategy and planning. Unless you're predisposed to believe otherwise, and I can't change that.