Mutant League 02/11/2008 AM Game 15: Nyssane vs. Mitsaso & Novaya Havoc [Archive]

mattbib

02-11-2008, 09:34 AM

CHAPTER ONE:

TEMPO --
Immediately when the battle starts, Tempo accelerates time around the team, giving them a chance to rush at the opponents without worrying about getting blasted or attacked. If she is able to stop time all around the X-Men and steal Xavier's body away, she should be able to boost the time to the point where the enemies would be unable to strike (X-Men #207). For the duration of the first chapter, Tempo stays close to the back to avoid danger, while stopping Dazzler as soon as she is able to before Dazzler is able to dazzle anyone. Her light powers may be faster than speed, but with Tempo standing close to the back, Dazzler’s powers would have to go through the other members before they get to Tempo.

PHANTAZIA --
Phantazia hovers over the opposing team. They have assumingly gone into defense mode before Tempo was able to boost the team and allow them to attack, but Phantazia's purpose would be to render Emma Frost immobile. A quick disruptive blast would strip away Emma's mutant powers, leaving her vulnerable to attack. To be on the safe side, Phantazia then quickly disrupts her nervous system, paralyzing her (X-Factor #82).

LORELEI --
As a native of the Savage Land, Lorelei has the home field advantage. Staying close to Arclight, Lorelei sings her hypnotic song to Justice, who most likely would not have had the chance to react too quickly due to Tempo's time boost. Lorelei continues singing, putting Justice under her hypnotic spell (Cable & Deadpool #49). She forces Justice to use his powers on Namora, who is unaware of her teammate's betrayal, and brings Namora to the ground (had she been flying).

ARCLIGHT --
Arclight stays close to Lorelei to protect her, but also uses her shockwaves to disorient any enemies who had not taken to the air (which would most likely be Dazzler (stopped by Tempo -- if the seismic waves happen to bring Dazzler back to normal time, Tempo would simply stop her once more), Emma Frost, and Layla Miller). If any of the enemies attempt to get close to Lorelei to knock her out, Arclight would be in the way. Otherwise, Arclight continues to punch the ground in order to keep Emma (who is reeling from Phantazia’s attacks) and Layla preoccupied.

MINDBLAST --
Mindblast encases Amelia Voght in her tractor beam, forcing her to stay in a compact space. Her tractor beams would not allow Voght to use her mist powers, and if she did, she would not be able to teleport anywhere. Mindblast simply traps her for the duration of this chapter.

ANACONDA --
Anaconda struts over to Namora after Lorelei forces Justice to use his powers on her. She realizes her grip wouldn't be able to hold Namora, so instead she pummels her with her fists. As both women are incredibly strong and durable, they'd merely be duking it out for the chapter.

FLATMAN --
Flatman would elongate himself and catch Siryn from the sky (had she been there, otherwise he'd grab her on the ground). He quickly (and apologetically) shoves his crumpled fist into her mouth to stop her from screaming. He then exerts enough pressure on her to force her into unconsciousness.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v231/ursula_boi/MutantLeagueBattle1.png

CHAPTER TWO

Note: Siryn has been defeated.

LORELEI & MINDBLAST --
Lorelei continues to sing in order to keep her hold on Justice. She forces Justice to use his powers to grab a tree from its roots and hover it behind Amelia Voght, and then quickly slam it onto her. Voght should not be able to react in time to the attack in order to turn to mist, and would not be able to move due to Mindblast holding her. Once Voght is out, Mindblast releases her beam and forms it around Emma Frost's writhing body. She lifts Emma and slams her into Layla Miller, which should keep them busy for a while without Emma being able to mind-tap Layla to converse telepathically.

TEMPO --
Tempo focuses on holding Dazzler in the time-stop bubble while lowering the time acceleration around her teammates slightly to allow her more concentration for Dazzler.

ARCLIGHT --
Arclight leaves Lorelei as she already put Justice under her spell, and rushes towards the stopped Dazzler. One quick seismic-punch to the back of the head is enough to finish Dazzler off before she is able to even blink.

PHANTAZIA & ANACONDA --
To give her an edge, Phantazia cloaks herself and Anaconda from Namora's presence. This allows Anaconda to strike Namora from various angles while dodging (or attempting to dodge... bitch is fat) Namora's attacks. This should mean Anaconda gets more punches in while Namora gets less. Phantazia was able to cloak the entire Brotherhood from X-Force’s view without even being very close to them, so she should be able to do it for Anaconda against Namora (X-Force #9).

FLATMAN --
Flatman watches over Layla or Emma to see if they recover from Mindblast’s attack. If they do, he would wrap and constrict against them, holding them in place (though he’d feel bad about attacking fellow super-heroes).

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v231/ursula_boi/MutantLeagueBattle2.png

CHAPTER THREE

Note: Amelia Voght and Dazzler have been defeated.

LORELEI --
Lorelei sings her final song to Justice, forcing him to blast himself towards the depowered Emma Frost. At his super-speed, Justice is forced to grab Emma, fly into the sky, then shoot down to the ground, knocking both himself and Emma out.

ANACONDA & ARCLIGHT --
Anaconda continues to battle Namora hidden from her view, while Arclight rushes over to help her teammate. The pair pelt her with punches and she will undoubtedly be taken out. If not, Phantazia, Tempo, or Mindblast are there to aid them if necessary.

MINDBLAST --
Mindblast forms her tractor beam around Layla Miller, who still hasn’t been finished off, and flings her in the sky. Without her teammates to aid her, she’d simply fall to the ground. If for some reason she didn’t, Mindblast would smash her into the ground with a tractor beam.

FLATMAN --
Flatman cheers his team on in Origami-Fu Pom-Pom Style! And he also gives a shout out to hawtie Boogie!

PHANTAZIA & TEMPO --
Phantazia and Tempo stand prepared lest anything go wrong during the other battles, or to aid them if necessary.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v231/ursula_boi/MutantLeagueBattle3.png

FINALE

A few days after the battle, Flatman heard someone knock on the team barracks’ door. He could it be? He wasn’t expecting anybody… He opened the door and, what do you know, it was Justice!

“Hello, Flatman,” Justice said.

“Oh… hi Justice. What brings you here?”

“Passion,” Justice whispered.

In that split second, all Val Ventura could imagine was Justice’s hot, sweaty
body pressed up against his in a loving embrace. His lips quivered, his legs trembled, and he felt faint! Oh, would the man of his dreams catch
him if he fell…!?

“You know, that club Passion? My girl, Dazzler’s, singing there. I thought you
might want to go, y’know… take a break from all this fighting?”

“Oh… uhm… yeah… sure!” Flatman stuttered.

Will Flatman confess his true feelings for Justice once and for all?! Find out next week!

mattbib

02-11-2008, 09:39 AM

Soundtrack: Shut Up And Sleep With Me - Sin With Sebastian

Flatman has some VERY Nasty Girls in his company, so what he have to focus on best is NOT underestimate them!

FASE UNO

The Savage Land humidity is totally taking its toll on our Hoes luscious hairdos, but that doesn't stop them from springing into action!

Justice
Encases the whole team in one big teke box, levitating the team sufficiently into the air to avoid physical attacks by Anaconda and Flatman, tractor beams by Mindblast, or ground attacks by Arclight.

Emma Frost
Emma telepathically mind-links to Amelia Voght and scans for Phantazia and Tempo.

Amelia Voght
Mind-linked to Phantazia and Tempo's whereabouts Amelia transubstantiates Tempo's helmet (which can presumably protect her from TP attacks) and teleports it onto Phantazia backwards, disrupting her vision.

Amelia then transubstantiates Phantazia into mist, taking her off the battlefield.

Dazzler
Creates a rolling light-fog that doubles not only as added defense for our team, but will also confuse the Nasty Girls and reveal any cloaked position that Phantazia tries to create for them in the interim.

She also transforms any sound that escapes Lorelei's slutty lips in a red, pretty bat-signal that reveals her position.

Emma
Emma then takes her attention to the helmet-less Tempo and psionically attacks her, rendering her catatonic.

Namora
In case Justice's ear-plug move doesn't work, and since she has nothing else to do for now, she steps behind him and puts her hands over his ears. LOL!

Layla climbs on Namora's back.

When our team is finally safe from Tempo or Phantazia's powers, Justice expands his force field violently towards the other team hitting the remaining members while dazing and scattering them.

NOTE: Phantazia cannot disrupt our players' powers from the opposite side of the field. She would need closer quarters, as can be seen in these (http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b41/havoc1/t1.jpg) / panel references. (http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b41/havoc1/t2.jpg)

KO: Tempo

Phantazia is currently off the field.

FASE DUE

Emma Frost
Emma turns into Diamond form.

Justice
Drops the teke barrier and levitation, and then hurls Emma in a fastball special at Arclight. Emma's diamond body should take her out for good. If not…

Namora
Flies toward Arclight (with Layla still on her back), nailing her along with Emma Frost.

Namora and Emma then turn to…

Namora and Emma
Turn their attention toward Anaconda.

Justice
Meanwhile, Justice is focused on Flatman and Mindblast then attacking them with his teke blasts from afar, making sure that Mindblast doesn't have the focus to reach for anybody with her tractor beam and keeping his teammates safe from Flatman's evil paper cuts!

Namora and Emma
While Anaconda is powerful, the Atlantean Royal and Diamond-hard Headmistress work in-tandem to defeat Anaconda. While Anaconda has powerful tendrils, their strength, endurance, and power should subdue her after a long battle.

Layla
Dropped off by Namora, she starts bitchslapping Lorelei, who should be still weakened by the hits she took earlier.

Syrin
Flies Dazzler and herself to the exact point where Amelia resubstantiates Phantazia.

Siryn SCREAMS right into Phantazia's face (and ears), kocking her out/away AND making her deaf for a while. Dazzler then bombards Phantazia with a catatonic dazzle-burst.

KO: Tempo, Phantazia, Arclight, Anaconda

FASE TRE

Amelia
Finds the biggest dinosaur around, then turns it in mist form.

Dazzler and Siryn
Produces a blinding flash right and sonic screams directly into Mindblast's face (who should be busy at the time with Justice's blasts), blinding/deafening her and possibly Flatman for a minute or so. Siryn then carries Dazzler away.

Namora
Flees from close quarters too, taking Emma and Layla with her!

Amelia
Teleports the big-ass dinosaur (preferably a brontosaurus) on top of Lorelei, Flatman and blinded Mindblast, who all get squashed under and become pie-like in shape, like Flatman.

Then the team cleans up by tag-teaming whomever escaped the Dino Squash (Flatman, most likely, since his shape might protect him from the dinosaur's butt).

After they're all knocked out, our team celebrates their victory and resuscitates the Nasty Gurlz! Amelia teleports Sage in to party with everyone, but nobody likes her. So both teams gang up on her and beat her, and to finish her up, Amelia teleports her into the closest's brontosaurus' ass.

FIN

Brian M.

02-11-2008, 09:53 AM

Um, this is a tough one. Who to pick...who to pick...

Justice's TK move would be able I think to stop some of the initial attacks, but with Tempo affecting things I wonder how long it would before Amelia could teleport the helmet off...

I'm sure this'll be a lively debate...probably hilarious too, I'll wait.

Nyssane

02-11-2008, 09:59 AM

If Justice forms a teke box around his entire team, that'd be one compact space which Mindblast could just lower back down. :p

Swashbuckler

02-11-2008, 10:00 AM

Mitsaso

02-11-2008, 10:02 AM

If Justice forms a teke box around his entire team, that'd be one compact space which Mindblast could just lower back down. :p
Not that you actually have him do such a thing, but even if he did so, the fact that the teke box would be on the ground doesn't make it less impenetratable!:p

THAT was your supposed "lame" strategy? This one is an epic production! It even has specialized fan art et all!!!!!:p

Novaya Havoc

02-11-2008, 10:04 AM

If Justice forms a teke box around his entire team, that'd be one compact space which Mindblast could just lower back down. :p

Justice is a strong enough teke to hold them in place despite Mindblast's blasts. ;)

Anyway...

OMG I LOVE THE PICTURES. LOLOLOL!

We expect Tempo to time-accelerate your team, which is why we go defensive and also work to take out her and Phantazia. Your bruisers can't get in, and even with a time acceleration, Amelia and Frost working in-tandem should be able to at least disrupt Tempo and Phantazia even if they aren't KO'd. Phantazia needs to be close to our team. Even with a time boost, Amelia/Frost are only thinking about these moves, so it should effectively take them out.

Dazzler is absorbing Lorelai's screams. Even if she is stopped, her unique genetic structure would absorb the attacks.

Flatman, Anaconda, and Arclight are rendered useless by the opening teke defense, even if Dazzler is time-stopped initially.

Novaya Havoc

02-11-2008, 10:07 AM

Is a telekenetic shield sound proof? I don't believe it is.

I think Tempo's move would give the Nasty Girls an initial advantage. I like that Anaconda is teamed against Namora, thogh an underwater battle would have been more fun. I don't think a brontasaurous would KO Flatman and I'm continuously wondering why Siryn has yet to use her "hyno voice" in any of these battles.

The hypno voice only affects humans/metahumans, not mutants, unfortunately. This was mentioned somewhere in X-Factor (can't remember the ish off the top of my head). That's why we don't use it. It'd be a foul! :D

Dazzler is absorbing Lorelei's sonic attacks.

Mitsaso

02-11-2008, 10:09 AM

Is a telekenetic shield sound proof? I don't believe it is.
Of course it's sound proof! If sound could get through, then ANYTHING would be able to get through and we wouldn't bother putting up a teke shield in the first place. A big teke box shouldn't be much different in density than a huge metal box or something. And Lorelei's song can do nothing to justice cuz he has his teke earplugs on PLUS Namora covering his ears.:D

I don't think a brontasaurous would KO Flatman
It would, if he was standing up and it hit him on the top of his head. And that's why we have everyone tag team on possible survivors, even predicting that Flatman might be the one!

and I'm continuously wondering why Siryn has yet to use her "hyno voice" in any of these battles.
We did use it last time. Syrin hasn't really been shown using that ability of hers during battle, only in occasions where she was more relaxed, so we avoid using that a lot.

Nyssane

02-11-2008, 10:23 AM

Not that you actually have him do such a thing, but even if he did so, the fact that the teke box would be on the ground doesn't make it less impenetratable!:p

THAT was your supposed "lame" strategy? This one is an epic production! It even has specialized fan art et all!!!!!:p

Was this one yours or Ben's or the mixture one? :( Cuz I know you worked hard on making one also!

And also, if your team is in the TK box, the minute Amelia Voght leaves it in the misty form, she'd be encased by Mindblast which would not allow her to attack Tempo, which would leave her open.

Dazzler is absorbing Lorelai's screams. Even if she is stopped, her unique genetic structure would absorb the attacks.

She might absorb it but she would not be able to use it, because her mind would be stopped.

It would, if he was standing up and it hit him on the top of his head. And that's why we have everyone tag team on possible survivors, even predicting that Flatman might be the one!

Flatman's flat, lawl. If the brontosaurus fell on him, he'd simply fall backwards until he was laying flat on the ground and relatively unharmed.

darknessatnoon

02-11-2008, 10:25 AM

I think the outcome here all depends on how quick Tempo is on the uptake. I found the decision to have Flatman fist Siryn to be bold and compelling.

Nyssane

02-11-2008, 10:26 AM

I think the outcome here all depends on how quick Tempo is on the uptake. I found the decision to have Flatman fist Siryn to be bold and compelling.

LMAO you make it sound so dirty! :(

Novaya Havoc

02-11-2008, 10:26 AM

Was this one yours or Ben's or the mixture one? :( Cuz I know you worked hard on making one also!

And also, if your team is in the TK box, the minute Amelia Voght leaves it in the misty form, she'd be encased by Mindblast which would not allow her to attack Tempo, which would leave her open.

Amelia never turns into mist. She turns Tempo's helmet and then Phantazia into mist when she has a psi-lock on them (via Frost).

Amelia don't need to be no mist to make others mist, yo!

She might absorb it but she would not be able to use it, because her mind would be stopped.

That's fine. Dazz just creates a rolling light fog; not an offensive move. But absorbing the sound stops Lorelei from affecting Justice in any way.

Nyssane

02-11-2008, 10:27 AM

Amelia never turns into mist. She turns Tempo's helmet and then Phantazia into mist when she has a psi-lock on them (via Frost).

Amelia don't need to be no mist to make others mist, yo!

From that far away, though? I find it improbable if she's up in the sky in a TK box that she'd be able to use her powers INSIDE of the box.

Novaya Havoc

02-11-2008, 10:29 AM

From that far away, though? I find it improbable if she's up in the sky in a TK box that she'd be able to use her powers INSIDE of the box.

Yep. She can transubstantiate on thought or by thinking about things. When Emma psi-locks onto them, it's a piece of cake!

Nyssane

02-11-2008, 10:31 AM

Yep. She can transubstantiate on thought or by thinking about things. When Emma psi-locks onto them, it's a piece of cake!

I have my doubts.

Also, if Dazzler is in the box she won't be able to locate Lorelei since it's either soundproof or it isn't. If it isn't, then Justice would immediately be put under her spell and not use the TK box any longer.

Nyssane

02-11-2008, 10:37 AM

Mitsaso

02-11-2008, 10:44 AM

Also, Phantazia's range is debatable. She shot down Storm, who was flying high in the air while Phantazia was happily on the island below. And aren't there rules against taking characters off of the battlefield? MARIAH, ANYONE????

LOL!
She's in the battlefield, but only in mist form. We did that last time with Meggan, too, kept her busy with Amelia until the pieces were set to take her out once and for all.:p

Mitsaso

02-11-2008, 10:57 AM

Was this one yours or Ben's or the mixture one? Cuz I know you worked hard on making one also!
It's my initial version but with Ben's last-minute editing/frosting. Alas, my uber-cool double-edited version got nixed.

Also, I performed shittily on my driving exam due to being sleep-deprived!:(
However, I passed because the examiner was drunk (and it was early in the afternoon,too!) and I had bribed him anyway! Greece forever!:D

And also, if your team is in the TK box, the minute Amelia Voght leaves it in the misty form, she'd be encased by Mindblast which would not allow her to attack Tempo, which would leave her open.
As said above, Amelia doesn't need to go in mist form or leave her position and she doesn't, she can use her power on ANYTHING in her eyesight just by thinking of it. You're not the only one who knows well his characters, Nyssie!:p

Flatman's flat, lawl. If the brontosaurus fell on him, he'd simply fall backwards until he was laying flat on the ground and relatively unharmed.
Which is why we have everyone ganging up on him afterwards, anyway!

Also, if Dazzler is in the box she won't be able to locate Lorelei since it's either soundproof or it isn't. If it isn't, then Justice would immediately be put under her spell and not use the TK box any longer.
I believe that Dazzler, since her powers are attuned to the sounds areound her, doesn't need to actually listen to something to make use of it. But I'll let Ben clear that up, since he's the Dazzler Junkie!
Also, Justice is triple-proofed against Lorelei; he's got teke earplugs on, he's got Namora covering his ears AND Dazzler is set to transform any sound that escapes Lorelei's lips in pretty light. So it's a safe bet to say that he never plays for YOUR team (playing for Flatman's team, though, is a horse of another color;) )

Novaya Havoc

02-11-2008, 11:01 AM

I have my doubts.

Also, if Dazzler is in the box she won't be able to locate Lorelei since it's either soundproof or it isn't. If it isn't, then Justice would immediately be put under her spell and not use the TK box any longer.

Dazzy isn't trying to locate Lorelei. She's just absorbing any siren calls from her that come toward Justice!

Also, Phantazia's range is debatable. She shot down Storm, who was flying high in the air while Phantazia was happily on the island below. And aren't there rules against taking characters off of the battlefield? MARIAH, ANYONE????

Seems like she works under close range to me!
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b41/havoc1/t1.jpg
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b41/havoc1/t2.jpg

And Amelia doesn't remove her from the battle field. She holds her in a transubstantiated mist! Difference!

Nyssane

02-11-2008, 11:02 AM

I could say the same about Lorelei being used to sing so she should be able to pass the TK field. :p I just find it hard to believe Dazzler can project the blast at Lorelei without even hearing her.

Nyssane

02-11-2008, 11:06 AM

I don't have the issue before it around me at all, but:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v231/ursula_boi/hardee4_01.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v231/ursula_boi/hardee4_02_03.jpg

Phantazia, on the island, blasts Storm out of the sky and into the water below. That's a pretty decent distance away.

AND LOLOL BEN I love how you're referencing to PICS ON MY SITE without even owning the ISSUES!

Swashbuckler

02-11-2008, 11:10 AM

It's also never explicitly stated in the Strategy that Justice is making tk ear plugs. It says he makes a box around his team, but never does it say he is making ear plugs until it states that "in case they fail" Namora is covering his ears.

Novaya Havoc

02-11-2008, 11:11 AM

I could say the same about Lorelei being used to sing so she should be able to pass the TK field. :p I just find it hard to believe Dazzler can project the blast at Lorelei without even hearing her.

Dazzler doesn't blast Lorelei, though, Nyssy! She just absorbs the sonic energy! It's still SOUND, even if it doesn't affect her!

AND LOLOL BEN I love how you're referencing to PICS ON MY SITE without even owning the ISSUES!

MWHAHAHAHAHAAAAAA! :evilsmile

It's also never explicitly stated in the Strategy that Justice is making tk ear plugs. It says he makes a box around his team, but never does it say he is making ear plugs until it states that "in case they fail" Namora is covering his ears.

?!?! Eep! I must have accidentally edited it out! DON'T KILL ME MITSY!

Regardless, Dazz would absorb Lorelei's sonic attack! Dazzler has absorbed Klaw, cosmic-level Galactus sound, Blackbolt's scream, and Screming Mimi's wail.

Dazz would absorb Lorelei's sonic wail! That's 1/2 her power!

Nyssane

02-11-2008, 11:13 AM

Dazzler doesn't blast Lorelei, though, Nyssy! She just absorbs the sonic energy! It's still SOUND, even if it doesn't affect her!

I didn't mean BLAST blast, I meant like... project the locator or whateva.

And I just don't see her absorbing the sound, isn't the whole point of the TK field to stop anything from entering it? If it's that easy to penetrate it, Mindblast would just form a tractor beam inside and pull out anyone she pleases.

Disco Jess Minge

02-11-2008, 11:16 AM

Is there an issue where Alison absorbs sound that she is unable to hear? I don't have it.

I need some canon proof, I'll even take the Konami arcade game.

Brian M.

02-11-2008, 11:18 AM

If a tree falls in a forest and no one hears it, does it still make a noise?

Novaya Havoc

02-11-2008, 11:21 AM

Is there an issue where Alison absorbs sound that she is unable to hear? I don't have it.

I need some canon proof, I'll even take the Konami arcade game.

Dazzler says she does not "hear" music/sound, but instead "feels it within her like a lifeforce."
Dazzler the Movie, when she's gettin' naked in front of the stereo.

Also.

Dazzler absorbed solid sound like Klaw's raw energy blasts. (Dazzler #9). She didn't need to "hear" it; it was raw, solid sonic energy. Dazzler absorbs sonic energy -- she doesn't need to "hear noise" to absorb it.

Also.

Dazzler #42, when Silence stops all sound around Alison weakens her because she requires it.

And no -- I don't have panel scans. She "drinks" sonic energy. She doesn't need to "hear it." So even if Lorelei's sonic wave is like a "dog whistle" to men -- and women can't hear it -- Dazzler could still absorb it. It's still sonic energy floating through the air.

Nyssane

02-11-2008, 11:22 AM

Disco Jess Minge

02-11-2008, 11:24 AM

Pach!

02-11-2008, 11:24 AM

This match should have ended with love making.

Mitsaso

02-11-2008, 11:26 AM

That's not the point, though -- the solid energy of the sound Lorelei projects would not be able to penetrate Justice's TK field and thus never reach Dazzler.

The light she produces (or the sound she transforms into light) doesnt have to be near her OR reach her, she can do it by far just by thinking about it. It' what her powers are about.;)

Nyssane

02-11-2008, 11:27 AM

And this is where I bow. http://www.togerland.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/worthy.gif

I totally forgotten those issues. I suck as a Dazzler fan.:(

On the plus side, you got my vote. Sorry, Nyss-Bitch.:D

It'd be nice if you actually read the strategies instead of just admitting to me on AIM that you base it solely on who's being nice to you.

Swashbuckler

02-11-2008, 11:30 AM

Brian M.

02-11-2008, 11:30 AM

Dazzler says she does not "hear" music/sound, but instead "feels it within her like a lifeforce."
Dazzler the Movie, when she's gettin' naked in front of the stereo.

Also.

Dazzler absorbed solid sound like Klaw's raw energy blasts. (Dazzler #9). She didn't need to "hear" it; it was raw, solid sonic energy. Dazzler absorbs sonic energy -- she doesn't need to "hear noise" to absorb it.

Also.

Dazzler #42, when Silence stops all sound around Alison weakens her because she requires it.

And no -- I don't have panel scans. She "drinks" sonic energy. She doesn't need to "hear it." So even if Lorelei's sonic wave is like a "dog whistle" to men -- and women can't hear it -- Dazzler could still absorb it. It's still sonic energy floating through the air.

Eh...with this info it's gonna be hard for me to vote against Mitsy and Novaya...

I think if Dazzler stops Lorelei from getting Justice then I think The Ho's get the majority of their moves off.

Even with Tempo's powers working against Emma and Amelia, I still believe those two will get their moves off.

I'll wait a lil longer but I think right now I'm leaning towards Novaya and Mitsaso.

Novaya Havoc

02-11-2008, 11:34 AM

That's not the point, though -- the solid energy of the sound Lorelei projects would not be able to penetrate Justice's TK field and thus never reach Dazzler.

?! Well then if you agree with that (the shield being impenetrable) the whole point is moot! Lorelei doesn't affect Justice either way!

Dazzler doesn't rely on Lorelei's sound to do anything. She's just an easy added defense against it.

Novaya Havoc

02-11-2008, 11:36 AM

So, when Dazzler absorbs the sound, can no one else hear it? I mean, ok, if I say, "Hey Justice, you're spandex is riding" while Allison is around does he still hear it? Otherwise, whenever Dazzler is there, the whole team would be effectively deaf. This means that while Dazzler may absorb the sound, Justice also hears the sound.

Only if she's consciously drawing in everything. Dazz is positioned in front of the other players, absorbing sound coming AT the team.

She doesn't have to absorb all sound... otherwise when she's singing on stage and making lightshows, no one would be able to hear the band's music! ;)

Nyssane

02-11-2008, 11:37 AM

Even with Tempo's powers working against Emma and Amelia, I still believe those two will get their moves off.

Tempo doesn't go after Emma or Amelia. She stops Dazzler.

Mitsaso

02-11-2008, 11:41 AM

Only if she's consciously drawing in everything. Dazz is positioned in front of the other players, absorbing sound coming AT the team.
Plus, even if she absorbed all sounds, our team doesn't need to be able to talk to each other to make do...they're mind-linked, remember? ;)

?!?! Eep! I must have accidentally edited it out! DON'T KILL ME MITSY!

:evilangry

Next time we're NOT waiting till Sunday night to make the final draft of our strat.:evilsmile

Brian M.

02-11-2008, 11:46 AM

Tempo doesn't go after Emma or Amelia. She stops Dazzler.

Can she focus them just one one person or is it like a "bubble", anything inside that bubble is influenced by her?

Nyssane

02-11-2008, 11:48 AM

Can she focus them just one one person or is it like a "bubble", anything inside that bubble is influenced by her?

Yeah, she can concentrate on stopping just one person or a bunch of people.

Brian M.

02-11-2008, 11:51 AM

Yeah, she can concentrate on stopping just one person or a bunch of people.

Ah, ok.

I'm gonna read back over both strategies one more time, using what I've read here try and make a decision or come up with a couple more questions.

Boogie

02-11-2008, 11:58 AM

Flatman should have folded himself into a super maxi pad for Emma on her rag. She looks like she is the kinda gal that has a heavy flow. It may have helped Nyss's team, as the relief Emma would feel with not having to depend on the less than reliable maxi pad, might change her mood and she would take Layla out into the jungle to pick flowers or something.

that is all.

Disco Jess Minge

02-11-2008, 12:14 PM

It'd be nice if you actually read the strategies instead of just admitting to me on AIM that you base it solely on who's being nice to you.

I went back and read them carefully. How very dare you question my integrity!http://www.togerland.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/janeausten.gif

Swashbuckler

02-11-2008, 02:18 PM

Harlock

02-11-2008, 02:43 PM

Great strategy, undying fan-man and bitchin' art! Way to go Nyssane.

pryde15

02-11-2008, 02:46 PM

I thought both were really good, and both teams make a pretty good case. I am leaning toward Nyssane, but I still don't know who to vote for!

Flight

02-11-2008, 02:50 PM

I picked Nyssane because I thought his strategy was perfect and the use of all his characters was very good.
Fantastic.

Mitsaso

02-11-2008, 03:04 PM

Okay, now for some more detailed debating:

TEMPO --
Immediately when the battle starts, Tempo accelerates time around the team, giving them a chance to rush at the opponents without worrying about getting blasted or attacked.
Emma locks on Tempo from the very beggining, and to be truthful, I don't recall an issue where her helmet protects her from TP, we just assumed so to play safe. Therefore, Tempo's effects on this battle should be minimized from the very beggining, with Emma probing her mind from the start, and in the second it takes for Amelia to take her helmet away and leave her undoubtedly helpless she won't be able to do anything. Emma takes her out early on.

PHANTAZIA --
Phantazia hovers over the opposing team. They have assumingly gone into defense mode before Tempo was able to boost the team and allow them to attack, but Phantazia's purpose would be to render Emma Frost immobile. A quick disruptive blast would strip away Emma's mutant powers, leaving her vulnerable to attack.
Emma is safe inside our pretty teke box and Phantazia getting Tempo's helmet stuck on her own helmet backwards is the first move Amelia does. Right after that, Amelia keeps Phantazia in mist form so she will cause no trouble until the moment Syrin and/or Dazzler give her the finishing blow.

LORELEI --
As a native of the Savage Land, Lorelei has the home field advantage. Staying close to Arclight, Lorelei sings her hypnotic song to Justice, who most likely would not have had the chance to react too quickly due to Tempo's time boost.
Justice is triple-proofed against Lorelei's song.

ARCLIGHT --
Arclight stays close to Lorelei to protect her, but also uses her shockwaves to disorient any enemies who had not taken to the air
She can't do anything, since our guys are safe in Justice's powerful teke box.

MINDBLAST --
Mindblast encases Amelia Voght in her tractor beam, forcing her to stay in a compact space. Her tractor beams would not allow Voght to use her mist powers, and if she did, she would not be able to teleport anywhere. Mindblast simply traps her for the duration of this chapter.
Amelia is inside of the teke box and safe from Mindblast. Mindblast MIGHT be able to lower Justice's box (although there are no plans in Nyssie's strat for this) but that wouldn't dissolve Justice's defense, the box would still be impenetratable (unlike his anus!). So it makes no difference.

ANACONDA --
Anaconda struts over to Namora after Lorelei forces Justice to use his powers on her.
Alas, Anaconda is useless as long as the teke box is up. When the box is down and she attacks Namora (we also have Namora attacking her, anyway!), Namora will be soon assisted by Diamond form Emma. Anaconda will yield.

FLATMAN --
Flatman would elongate himself and catch Siryn from the sky (had she been there, otherwise he'd grab her on the ground). He quickly (and apologetically) shoves his crumpled fist into her mouth to stop her from screaming. He then exerts enough pressure on her to force her into unconsciousness.
I love Flatman, but even if Syrin wasn't protected by the teke box, he still wouldn't be able to take her! One sonic scream and he'll be blown away like a autumn leaf (he also has the appropriate shape!:D ). Anyway, initially Terry is protected, and once the box is down Justice will keep him busy. So that's a big no-no.

With Tempo and Phantazia out of the picture, the rest of the Nasty Girls should have big troubo keeping up with their plans, and our surgical strikes weaken them more and more each time!:D

Novaya Havoc

02-11-2008, 04:46 PM

and you had awesome pictures.

That isn't a strategy!

Mitsaso

02-11-2008, 05:19 PM

One more thing that just came up in my mind (nit-picking, I know, but it's rather interesting!):

Even if the teke box, Namora's hands and Dazzler's powers couldn't do anything to prevent Lorelei's voice from reaching Justice's ears...

...how could Lorelai's voice possible have any effect when she is supposedly
hugely sped up by Tempo (at least in the beggining)? Her song would sound like a bunch of squirrels were singing it!!!!!!!:evilsmile

In Cable and Deadpool #49, Lorelei totally lost control of Ka-Zar when she missed a simple note, so alienating and altering her whole song will surely make it ineffective against Justice.

Nyssane

02-11-2008, 05:42 PM

I just really can't seem to get timing matched up on this match, like, who is able to get what done, but i've made my vote based on responses and on my general perception of the entry. I voted for Nyssane. Your entry ended more clear and precisely then just a giant dinosaur being dropped on several team members. and you had awesome pictures.

That's my biggest problem with theirs. It's almost like they're poking fun by throwing a huge dinosaur on three characters, it's all too silly to be taken seriously. Apparently others agree, but then the Dazzler brigade seem to only vote for matches this team is in anyway.

Emma locks on Tempo from the very beggining, and to be truthful, I don't recall an issue where her helmet protects her from TP, we just assumed so to play safe. Therefore, Tempo's effects on this battle should be minimized from the very beggining, with Emma probing her mind from the start, and in the second it takes for Amelia to take her helmet away and leave her undoubtedly helpless she won't be able to do anything. Emma takes her out early on.

You don't have that in your strategy. Tempo boosts the team and allows them to strike first.

Emma is safe inside our pretty teke box and Phantazia getting Tempo's helmet stuck on her own helmet backwards is the first move Amelia does. Right after that, Amelia keeps Phantazia in mist form so she will cause no trouble until the moment Syrin and/or Dazzler give her the finishing blow.

How long do you really think it'd take Phantazia to pull the helmet off over her head? Not to mention that Tempo's helmet is smaller than Phantazia's mask, so there's no telling if it'd even fit on her head.

Amelia is inside of the teke box and safe from Mindblast. Mindblast MIGHT be able to lower Justice's box (although there are no plans in Nyssie's strat for this) but that wouldn't dissolve Justice's defense, the box would still be impenetratable (unlike his anus!). So it makes no difference.

Stop using that excuse. How the hell am I supposed to know one simple move by your characters? Am I supposed to put "Mindblast penetrates Justice's telekinetic box that he formed to grab Amelia Voght?" No.

Alas, Anaconda is useless as long as the teke box is up. When the box is down and she attacks Namora (we also have Namora attacking her, anyway!), Namora will be soon assisted by Diamond form Emma. Anaconda will yield.

That's to say Justice would be able to hold all seven of your characters for that amount of time.

I love Flatman, but even if Syrin wasn't protected by the teke box, he still wouldn't be able to take her! One sonic scream and he'll be blown away like a autumn leaf (he also has the appropriate shape!:D ). Anyway, initially Terry is protected, and once the box is down Justice will keep him busy. So that's a big no-no.

Due to Tempo's time boost, Flatman would easily be able to wrap around Siryn tight enough to lose her breath and then shove his fist in her mouth.

With Tempo and Phantazia out of the picture, the rest of the Nasty Girls should have big troubo keeping up with their plans, and our surgical strikes weaken them more and more each time!:D

Too bad you rely on one move the whole round and then make a mockery of my team in your last portion.

AND I KNOW I SOUND BITCHY BUT I'M TRYING NOT TO.

Brian M.

02-11-2008, 05:44 PM

I will say this about Justice, he is a very talented TK'er. He's been shown the ability to do a lot of stuff with it at one time.

Novaya Havoc

02-11-2008, 05:53 PM

That's my biggest problem with theirs. It's almost like they're poking fun by throwing a huge dinosaur on three characters, it's all too silly to be taken seriously. Apparently others agree, but then the Dazzler brigade seem to only vote for matches this team is in anyway.

That's completely unfair. I call shenanigans on voters like num48champ who personally dislike me. Or people like Flight who joke your stategy is "practically perfect" in his Flight way. Don't act like it's some "Dazzler solidarity" thing. That's not fair, Clint, and you know it.

Mits REALLY wanted the dino thing as a sort of joke. And? It's not like our strategy is contingent upon it. Dazzler/Siryn basically take care of Mindblast and we have other members (Emma, Namora, Justice) who can easily take on the dazzled Lorelei and Flatman.

Yeah, it's kitschy and silly. It was meant to be. To be honest (and Mits can say as much) I didn't want that in there. It is. Our entire strategy isn't based on the dino thing.

You don't have that in your strategy. Tempo boosts the team and allows them to strike first.

She speed boosts your team, but we're defended by a telekinetic shield and in the air. She may speed-boost your team, but you're still 100m away, we're separated by savage land territory, and we're defended.

Emma/Amelia, even with a speed boost on your side, could do what they do. Mindblast is neutralized as Justice is the more powerful teke, Arclight can't do a ground strike, and Anaconda/Flatman can't get in.

How long do you really think it'd take Phantazia to pull the helmet off over her head? Not to mention that Tempo's helmet is smaller than Phantazia's mask, so there's no telling if it'd even fit on her head.

Phantazia is transubstantiated into mist either way. Moot point.

Stop using that excuse. How the hell am I supposed to know one simple move by your characters? Am I supposed to put "Mindblast penetrates Justice's telekinetic box that he formed to grab Amelia Voght?" No.

Of course you can't predict EVERYTHING, and neither can we. You've admitted in the past that your team "has virtually no defense." We do. And we can block your attacks. That's how it rolls.

That's to say Justice would be able to hold all seven of your characters for that amount of time.

He can. Especially when they're concentrated into a single group.

Due to Tempo's time boost, Flatman would easily be able to wrap around Siryn tight enough to lose her breath and then shove his fist in her mouth.

From 100yds away, through a teke barrier, when she's around several other teammates? Not likely. Siryn doesn't break away from the group until Tempo and Phantazia are put out of commission.

Too bad you rely on one move the whole round and then make a mockery of my team in your last portion.

We don't. Jeez. We're not mocking; we were having fun. Remember last year?

To quote our STRATEGY:
"Justice
Meanwhile, Justice is focused on Flatman and Mindblast then attacking them with his teke blasts from afar, making sure that Mindblast doesn't have the focus to reach for anybody with her tractor beam and keeping his teammates safe from Flatman's evil paper cuts!"

"Dazzler and Siryn
Produces a blinding flash right and sonic screams directly into Mindblast's face (who should be busy at the time with Justice's blasts), blinding/deafening her and possibly Flatman for a minute or so. Siryn then carries Dazzler away."

We didn't just "drop a dinosaur onto three characters." We just did it for a bit of humor at the very end. We could have just as easily said that Justice teke-slams Mindblast until she's KO'd and that Dazzler/Siryn dazzle flatman out into catatonic stupor, but I incorporated Mitsy's desire to drop the Dino. Team effort, tit-for-tat and all that.

AND I KNOW I SOUND BITCHY BUT I'M TRYING NOT TO.

And neither are we.

Mitsaso

02-11-2008, 05:55 PM

Too bad you rely on one move the whole round and then make a mockery of my team in your last portion.

I DO NOT mock your team!:( I'd have used the dino move no matter who the opponent was (unless they were teleporters/seedsters etc).:(

I just want us all to be friends.:(

lockerogue

02-11-2008, 05:55 PM

I don't know who to vote for I like both of the strategies. I'm torn between the two.

Brian M.

02-11-2008, 06:22 PM

Lemme explain my vote a little better.

I think TK shields are not sound proof. But they do block out other potential energy. Which means MindBlast's tractor beam. So I think Amelia gets off Tempo's helmet. I'm gonna disregard it going on Phantazia becuase honestly she would just take it off. The character isn't going to sit there w/ it on. While I don't like to assume moves are done in a match unless stated, i think it's obvious she would remove it. That said, Tempo is out via Emma Frost.

Going back to the TK shield, I believe Lorelei's song doesn't really work since Dazzler is targeting her. Obviously Dazzler can be selective on what she absorbs and what she doesn't since there isn't the aura of silence around her when she walks.

So with Justice still up and running, those moves Nyssane's team does w/ Justice would be negated.

The TK shield is really a tough move to counter in Marvel League. The person who figures out to disable a TK shield will win the League.

Mitsaso

02-11-2008, 06:25 PM

The TK shield is really a tough move to counter in Marvel League. The person who figures out to disable a TK shield will win the League.
Is that a hint/premonition on exactly how you and Beast are gonna win the League...?:p

Brian M.

02-11-2008, 06:27 PM

Is that a hint/premonition on exactly how you and Beast are gonna win the League...?:p

Fuck no, I've been trying to figure it out since I realized there was a shot at meeting you bastards in the finals. I got nothing right now.

CyberHubbs

02-11-2008, 06:32 PM

I think I have to side with Nyssane. It's just a clearer strategy to me.

DeniseXfrost

02-11-2008, 06:56 PM

Flâneur

02-11-2008, 07:53 PM

Why I voted for Clint:

The shield cannot block the time powers, IMO, so I'm working from that assumption.
If the opposing team is dramatically slowed and clint's team is sped up then it'd be like every team member was quicksilver in comparison so each move landing as planned is more uncertain. Considering the two steps Ben's team requires for the Emma/Amelia move, I'm unsure it gets pulled off in the necessary time to stop clint's opening volley.
If someone is flying way high into the air and the person is on the ground then that is a fair distance, so phantazia would be capable of the depowerment and I'm not so sure she's effectively stopped by Ben's team due to the time difference.
In my mind, the Justice box doesn't prevent a Mind Blast attack since it doesn't need to go through the wall anymore than telepathy does, only the objects it carries would be cockblocked to an extent. So the Emma/Layla smash happens and is possibly intensified since they may incidentally smash against Justice's box too.
Also, Ben doesn't specify a sound proof shield and standard teke shields don't usually block sound as there's been a fair few issues where there is enemy to hero dialogue through a shield. Even baby cable's shields allowed everyone to hear the baby crying through what was a very very powerful shield. So apart from the random earplug reference I don't think Lorelei is satisfactorily blocked. So Justice belongs to Lorelei. Also, IMO, Dazzler wouldn't neccesarily be immune the the side-effects of sound, just the sound molecules themselves would be transmuted. As she's certainly able to hear things in her daily life and it's not like she's immune to magic just because the spells are spoken. So I think the Lorelei moves work.
Also, taking the opponent off the battle field isn't an allowable tactic unless it's required for the power and even then it's not a specific tactic. Unless you mean off the field literally, as in above the ground, but you don't seem to be saying that.

I'm sorry Benji/Mitsy, I just need to go with Clintums here. We still united in our mutual Alexa? :(

Novaya Havoc

02-11-2008, 08:13 PM

Why I voted for Clint:

[LIST]The shield cannot block the time powers, IMO, so I'm working from that assumption.

It can't, but it is still erected nonetheless. It's a physical barrier stopping SEVERAL of their team's moves (Arclight/Flatman/Mindblast as prime examples).

If the opposing team is dramatically slowed and clint's team is sped up then it'd be like every team member was quicksilver in comparison so each move landing as planned is more uncertain. Considering the two steps Ben's team requires for the Emma/Amelia move, I'm unsure it gets pulled off in the necessary time to stop clint's opening volley.

Tempo only stops DAZZLER and upspeeds his other members. Emma/Amelia are not affected. Our team is not slowed.

Dazzler is not an offensive player at the outset (neither is Siryn) because we expected Nyssane to go for them first.

Amelia and Emma are safely behind the levitated teke barrier.

If someone is flying way high into the air and the person is on the ground then that is a fair distance, so phantazia would be capable of the depowerment and I'm not so sure she's effectively stopped by Ben's team due to the time difference.

I posted panel references on how Phantazia has only disrupted powers at close range. Phantazia would need to be on top of our team to do this. And she would need to float over -- through the Savage Land field -- to do this. Even with a time boost, Emma/Amelia only need think these moves and they're done. It's not even a physical reaction.

In my mind, the Justice box doesn't prevent a Mind Blast attack since it doesn't need to go through the wall anymore than telepathy does, only the objects it carries would be cockblocked to an extent. So the Emma/Layla smash happens and is possibly intensified since they may incidentally smash against Justice's box too.

Justice is an A-List telekinetic who could compensate for a single tractor-beam's pull. I hate to pull the "My Character Is Stronger Than Yours" card, but Justice is not a low-level TK persona. Mindblast is limited in her teke use (aka "a tractor beam") and Justice should be able to compensate just fine.

Also, Ben doesn't specify a sound proof shield and standard teke shields don't usually block sound as there's been a fair few issues where there is enemy to hero dialogue through a shield. Even baby cable's shields allowed everyone to hear the baby crying through what was a very very powerful shield. So apart from the random earplug reference I don't think Lorelei is satisfactorily blocked. So Justice belongs to Lorelei. Also, IMO, Dazzler wouldn't neccesarily be immune the the side-effects of sound, just the sound molecules themselves would be transmuted. As she's certainly able to hear things in her daily life and it's not like she's immune to magic just because the spells are spoken. So I think the Lorelei moves work.

As the Dazzler aficionado, this is bollocks. Dazzler has absorbed sound no one else has been able to withstand. Cosmic bombardment by Galactus, the Scream of Blackbolt, and even Screaming Mimi's disruptive blasts.

Besides, we have...

"[Dazzler] also transforms any sound that escapes Lorelei's slutty lips"

Dazzler is focused on absorbing Lorelei's sonic call. It's sonic. It's sound. That's why she's Lorelei. I understand that this move is pivotal, but we have a sonic transducer.[/b] No one can trump Lorelei in ANY of the Mutant League teams more than Dazzler. Dazzler is built to absorb and withstand sonic attacks.

I may sound catty over this point, but this is the ONE point I will NOT budge on because Dazzler is a [i]sonic transducer. She will ABSORB sonic attacks. She's absorbed them from the BEST in the entire Marvel Universe. And somehow Lorelei breaks through?

No. And. No.

Like I said, it may sound catty as hell for me to say that, but there is no way ANY sonic manipulation gets by Dazzler. NONE.

Also, taking the opponent off the battle field isn't an allowable tactic unless it's required for the power and even then it's not a specific tactic. Unless you mean off the field literally, as in above the ground, but you don't seem to be saying that.

We don't take her OFF the battlefield. Amelia turns her into mist, which is a part of her power. If our team was JUST Mad Jim Jaspers, we could transform everyone else into air molecules. We could do anything. Amelia transubstantiates things into mist. She turned Phantazia into mist.

Phantazia is still THERE. Just as mist. That's Amelia's power, and that's why we chose her! Holla, Amelia!

I'm sorry Benji/Mitsy, I just need to go with Clintums here. We still united in our mutual Alexa? :(

That is okay, my Alexa Sister. Our power still lies within. We SHALL overcome.

Nyssane

02-11-2008, 08:24 PM

Tempo only stops DAZZLER and upspeeds his other members. Emma/Amelia are not affected. Our team is not slowed.

Dazzler is not an offensive player at the outset (neither is Siryn) because we expected Nyssane to go for them first.

Amelia and Emma are safely behind the levitated teke barrier.

At the upspeed, though, my team would be as fast as Quicksilver which would make your team seem slow in comparison. That's probably what he meant.

I posted panel references on how Phantazia has only disrupted powers at close range. Phantazia would need to be on top of our team to do this. And she would need to float over -- through the Savage Land field -- to do this. Even with a time boost, Emma/Amelia only need think these moves and they're done. It's not even a physical reaction.

And I posted panel references where she does not need to be that close. It's not as if Phantazia needs to conjur up the power within her -- like Emma or Voght, she can blast as quick as she thinks it.

Justice is an A-List telekinetic who could compensate for a single tractor-beam's pull. I hate to pull the "My Character Is Stronger Than Yours" card, but Justice is not a low-level TK persona. Mindblast is limited in her teke use (aka "a tractor beam") and Justice should be able to compensate just fine.

As the Dazzler aficionado, this is bollocks. Dazzler has absorbed sound no one else has been able to withstand. Cosmic bombardment by Galactus, the Scream of Blackbolt, and even Screaming Mimi's disruptive blasts.

Besides, we have...

"[Dazzler] also transforms any sound that escapes Lorelei's slutty lips"

Dazzler is focused on absorbing Lorelei's sonic call. It's sonic. It's sound. That's why she's Lorelei. I understand that this move is pivotal, but we have a sonic transducer.[/b] No one can trump Lorelei in ANY of the Mutant League teams more than Dazzler. Dazzler is built to absorb and withstand sonic attacks.

I may sound catty over this point, but this is the ONE point I will NOT budge on because Dazzler is a [i]sonic transducer. She will ABSORB sonic attacks. She's absorbed them from the BEST in the entire Marvel Universe. And somehow Lorelei breaks through?

No. And. No.

Like I said, it may sound catty as hell for me to say that, but there is no way ANY sonic manipulation gets by Dazzler. NONE.

I don't think it's a matter of her absorbing the sound. I think it's more a matter of having her behind a telekinetic field. Mitsaso said earlier I believe that the TK field was soundproof, which would mean Lorelei's sound does NOT seep into the TK box nor does the energy from the sound reach Dazzler. If she has stored energy within her, that's fine, but she can't use the power of Lorelei at all if she can't hear it. And don't give me that "sense" crap, she can't sense something that's being blocked by the TK field.

If it isn't sound proof, that's fine, but if that was the case then I think Mindblast would be able to use her telekinesis inside of the box to disorient Voght and/or toss Emma into Layla as seen in my strategy. Mindblast does not need to be connected to her tractor beam, as seen in the Femizon arc of Captain America, she can move objects freely with simple telekinesis.

Also, the A-List thing has nothing to do with it. Justice may be a powerful TKer but don't belittle Mindblast -- she lifted an entire airplane that Spider-Man was on and can lift 500 tons if she pleased. Even if she can only form one telekinetic ray, she compensates for it by being able to lift much more than the average TKer.

Lastly, I'm finding the issue right now where Cable tries to use his telepathy on Tempo and fails due to her psi-resistance. Scans will be up shortly to put this confusion to rest.

Flâneur

02-11-2008, 08:27 PM

Justice is an A-List telekinetic who could compensate for a single tractor-beam's pull. I hate to pull the "My Character Is Stronger Than Yours" card, but Justice is not a low-level TK persona. Mindblast is limited in her teke use (aka "a tractor beam") and Justice should be able to compensate just fine.
I'm not saying she's stronger at all, but you don't hold them in place when inside the shield. It doesn't matter that Mindblast is probably much weaker, since she's not directly going for the shield and the shield doesn't prevent psionic energy from entering, so Mindblast can affect things inside the shield.

As the Dazzler aficionado, this is bollocks. Dazzler has absorbed sound no one else has been able to withstand. Cosmic bombardment by Galactus, the Scream of Blackbolt, and even Screaming Mimi's disruptive blasts.

Besides, we have...

"[Dazzler] also transforms any sound that escapes Lorelei's slutty lips"

Dazzler is focused on absorbing Lorelei's sonic call. It's sonic. It's sound. That's why she's Lorelei. I understand that this move is pivotal, but we have a sonic transducer.[/b] No one can trump Lorelei in ANY of the Mutant League teams more than Dazzler. Dazzler is built to absorb and withstand sonic attacks.

I may sound catty over this point, but this is the ONE point I will NOT budge on because Dazzler is a [i]sonic transducer. She will ABSORB sonic attacks. She's absorbed them from the BEST in the entire Marvel Universe. And somehow Lorelei breaks through?

No. And. No.

Like I said, it may sound catty as hell for me to say that, but there is no way ANY sonic manipulation gets by Dazzler. NONE.

I think you misunderstand me; I'm not saying Dazzler is incapable of transducing that sound rather I'm saying she cannot block the hypnotic effect anymore than she could block a fire spell being activated. It's slightly different. That's why I gave this bit to Nyssy, I think she can turn sound into light but can she prevent hypnosis?

Re: Phantasia, you did post references but they aren't all encompassing. It's like me posting a panel reference saying Dazzler can only create light near her body even though there are other panels contradicting that. Nyss posted a panel that wins that point IMO.

Brian M.

02-11-2008, 08:28 PM

I thought Lorelei's song was what was hypnotic...that it was in the tone of her voice that seduced the menz?

lockerogue

02-11-2008, 08:29 PM

So I voting for Nyssane.

Novaya Havoc

02-11-2008, 08:34 PM

I'm not saying she's stronger at all, but you don't hold them in place when inside the shield. It doesn't matter that Mindblast is probably much weaker, since she's not directly going for the shield and the shield doesn't prevent psionic energy from entering, so Mindblast can affect things inside the shield.

Agreed, but Justice can easily anchor our Hoes if that's the case! Like Nyssane said HE can't account for everything, neither can we! It's a fact that Justice is focused on the defense, so attempting to pull someone into a tractor beam (and Mindblast is focused on Amelia, mind), would mean Justice would counter.

I think you misunderstand me; I'm not saying Dazzler is incapable of transducing that sound rather I'm saying she cannot block the hypnotic effect anymore than she could block a fire spell being activated. It's slightly different. That's why I gave this bit to Nyssy, I think she can turn sound into light but can she prevent hypnosis?

If the hypnosis is based on SOUND, then yes. If the sound never reaches Justice, it doesn't matter. The effect of the sound -- normative, destructive, hypnotic, concussive -- doesn't matter. Dazzler absorbs sound. Lorelei creates hypnosis via sound. Dazzler absorbs it.

In regards to Nyssane:

Dazzler is not RELIANT on Lorelei for sound. Dazzler could pull off what she does in our match regardless. Dazzler had not shown a need (emphasis on NEED) for sound to create light since the 80s. Nowadays, she just basically creates light as-needed. What she DOES with Lorelei's sound is just an added boost. It's not necessary.

Re: Phantasia, you did post references but they aren't all encompassing. It's like me posting a panel reference saying Dazzler can only create light near her body even though there are other panels contradicting that. Nyss posted a panel that wins that point IMO.

He didn't. There was a panel of Storm on the ground and Phantazia standing next to her. I posted two DIFFERENT panels of Phantazia blasting both Storm AND another adversary. She needs to be within close quarters. She cannot do this from across the battlefield.

In one panel she even says she is "within range!" indicating a distance-limitation on her disruptive power! How much more specific are we supposed to be on this point?

Nyssane

02-11-2008, 08:49 PM

He didn't. There was a panel of Storm on the ground and Phantazia standing next to her. I posted two DIFFERENT panels of Phantazia blasting both Storm AND another adversary. She needs to be within close quarters. She cannot do this from across the battlefield.

In one panel she even says she is "within range!" indicating a distance-limitation on her disruptive power! How much more specific are we supposed to be on this point?

You must not have even looked at my picture. Storm was in the sky, obviously, and was blasted out of it by Phantazia, who was clearly on the island the whole time. She was probably talking about how she had Sleepwalker in her visual peripheral. And even if she wasn't, that doesn't negate the issue where she blasts Storm out of the sky.

Novaya Havoc

02-11-2008, 09:00 PM

You must not have even looked at my picture. Storm was in the sky, obviously, and was blasted out of it by Phantazia, who was clearly on the island the whole time. She was probably talking about how she had Sleepwalker in her visual peripheral. And even if she wasn't, that doesn't negate the issue where she blasts Storm out of the sky.

You mean blasting her out of the sky within close range?

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b41/havoc1/t2.jpg

Even you can't deny that the perspective shows Phantazia WITHIN CLOSE RANGE OF STORM.

I even pulled this from your own Phantazia web site!

She cannot disrupt powers from an extreme distance.

Nyssane

02-11-2008, 09:02 PM

You mean blasting her out of the sky within close range?

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b41/havoc1/t2.jpg

Even you can't deny that the perspective shows Phantazia WITHIN CLOSE RANGE OF STORM.

I even pulled this from your own Phantazia web site!

She cannot disrupt powers from an extreme distance.

She was NOT IN CLOSE RANGE. Storm was flying all over the island for search of Empyrean, and when she was over the water, Phantazia blasted her from the island.

I looked forever to find the third issue of that set and I can't find it, but it clearly shows Storm flying over the island in a high atmosphere and then getting blasted and falling to the shore.

Stop pulling that same panel out, that has NOTHING to do with the scene I'm talking about.

Jessica Drew

02-11-2008, 09:03 PM

Novaya Havoc

02-11-2008, 09:07 PM

I've read and re-read the strategies, and I've pored over the arguments, and for me, it comes down to this: does Tempo accelerate time around her teammates before Justice erects his TK bubble?

I don't know the answer, and I'm torn.

Someone put me back together.

To split hairs:

Tempo boots her teammates' speed at the same time we're erecting our teke defense.

While his team has the benefit of speed, we have the benefit of defense.

No move by them is pulled off while we have ZERO defense.

Let the strategies continue.

Pach!

02-11-2008, 09:10 PM

Ok I'm gonna vote.

I decided to vote for Nyssane.

Mostly because of the opening moves. Nyssane is not clear about how fast he speeds up his team but I think Tempo gives his team the advantage. His team should be fast enough for them to act before Justic does his TK shield. Anaconda to reach Namora, Flatman to get Siryn, Arclight to quake Layla, Phantazia to stop Emma and for Mindblast to get Amelia Voght.

Lorelei's voice would NOT affect Justice. Dazzler takes care of that. However at this point the TK shield Justice would erect would have to include SEVERAL of Nyssane's team members. And this would alter the strategy severely.

This initial step was the main deciding factor for me. If someone thinks I've been unfair I would be happy to elaborate more but I did put a lot of thought into it before making my decision.

Nyssane

02-11-2008, 09:14 PM

To split hairs:

Tempo boots her teammates' speed at the same time we're erecting our teke defense.

While his team has the benefit of speed, we have the benefit of defense.

No move by them is pulled off while we have ZERO defense.

Let the strategies continue.

I'd like to see some canon proof that Amelia Voght can turn objects into mist at a distance. Because I clearly state in my strategy that Tempo stays near the rear... that would require Voght to use her powers quite a ways away from where Justice had formed the box.

Because if she's too far, Tempo could merely dodge all incoming attacks along with the rest of the group. They'd have the speed advantage.

Jessica Drew

02-11-2008, 09:14 PM

Brian M.

02-11-2008, 09:15 PM

To split hairs:

Tempo boots her teammates' speed at the same time we're erecting our teke defense.

While his team has the benefit of speed, we have the benefit of defense.

No move by them is pulled off while we have ZERO defense.

Let the strategies continue.

The thing about TK/TP is that it all happens at the speed of thought right? So all we need to prove is that he erects the shield...hell the front of the shield before anyone can get to him. Lifting up in the air and all that stuff comes secondary to erecting the front of the shield.

So the speed of thought...thought...are nothing more then electrical impulses in the brain, I don't have an exact figure for the speed of those impulses but I know when I turn the light switch on my wall, the light comes on immediately.

Plus Tempo has to think about her move aswell, the same as Justice. I would say their brains move at the same pace...so wouldn't his shield be up by the time she sets the "clocks"?

Also...how fast can Tempo speed up time? Flaneur said they were moving at Quicksilver speed...but can they? I mean there are different speeds of superspeed.

Novaya Havoc

02-11-2008, 09:19 PM

I'd like to see some canon proof that Amelia Voght can turn objects into mist at a distance. Because I clearly state in my strategy that Tempo stays near the rear... that would require Voght to use her powers quite a ways away from where Justice had formed the box.

Because if she's too far, Tempo could merely dodge all incoming attacks along with the rest of the group. They'd have the speed advantage.

And show me canon proof that Phantazia can blast from a distance ASIDE from some random page of Storm laying on a rock when I have showed you TWO panels of Phantazia needing to do it at close range (one of her saying she's "within range" no less!).

You can play the continuity game all you want. Amelia can been SHOWN to transubstantiate psionically and on-sight. Show me something to the contrary, and then we can talk.

Tempo cannot "dodge" an Emma psi-lock coupled with an Amelia teleport.

Nyssane

02-11-2008, 09:20 PM

Also...how fast can Tempo speed up time? Flaneur said they were moving at Quicksilver speed...but can they? I mean there are different speeds of superspeed.

Yes. X-Factor #77 -- Tempo boosts her teammates (around six of them, including the adorable Thumbelina) to at least near-Quicksilver speed, and then later slows Quicksilver down to hold him off.

If she can STOP all of the X-Men, I'd say that she'd be able to move at infinite speed, along with her team.

Brian M.

02-11-2008, 09:21 PM

Yes. X-Factor #77 -- Tempo boosts her teammates (around six of them, including the adorable Thumbelina) to at least near-Quicksilver speed, and then later slows Quicksilver down to hold him off.

If she can STOP all of the X-Men, I'd say that she'd be able to move at infinite speed, along with her team.

Ok. I still have trouble believing she can get them there before his TK shield though. That's why I voted with Novaya/Mitsaso. It was a great strategy, but once again these matches come down to the openning moves.

Nyssane

02-11-2008, 09:22 PM

And show me canon proof that Phantazia can blast from a distance ASIDE from some random page of Storm laying on a rock when I have showed you TWO panels of Phantazia needing to do it at close range (one of her saying she's "within range" no less!).

You can play the continuity game all you want. Amelia can been SHOWN to transubstantiate psionically and on-sight. Show me something to the contrary, and then we can talk.

Tempo cannot "dodge" an Emma psi-lock coupled with an Amelia teleport.

Show me, then. I want proof.

I'm still looking for the issue with Storm getting blasted out of the sky, so why don't you do me the same grace?

Tempo could easily dodge Voght if she's not able to extend her mist powers that far, so until you show me proof there's no way to say Tempo can dodge it or not.

Novaya Havoc

02-11-2008, 09:26 PM

Yes. X-Factor #77 -- Tempo boosts her teammates (around six of them, including the adorable Thumbelina) to at least near-Quicksilver speed, and then later slows Quicksilver down to hold him off.

If she can STOP all of the X-Men, I'd say that she'd be able to move at infinite speed, along with her team.

But she didn't. She "boosted" your speed and "stopped" Dazzler.

Emma psi-KO'd Tempo. And Amelia transubstantiated Phantazia.

You struck at the wrong members of our team (while we had a defense). We struck at the RIGHT members of yours. Your stat boost falls the second Emma psi-KOs Tempo.

Nyssane

02-11-2008, 09:28 PM

You're not even going to try and prove Voght can do that? When I went out of my way to prove Phantazia could disrupt from a distance?

I said in my strategy that Tempo stays near the rear. If Voght can extend her mist that far, then fine, but until you show me proof I don't think that'd happen and Tempo would go unscathed from Emma's psi-attacks.

Novaya Havoc

02-11-2008, 09:28 PM

Show me, then. I want proof.

I'm still looking for the issue with Storm getting blasted out of the sky, so why don't you do me the same grace?

Tempo could easily dodge Voght if she's not able to extend her mist powers that far, so until you show me proof there's no way to say Tempo can dodge it or not.

Amelia does not NEED to "extend a mist." She can transub. on sight, as was seen in Magento war OR EoD. She just DOES it. It's a PSYCHIC teleportation.

Emma psi-linked her to Tempo/Phantazia's whereabouts.
Amelia transubstantiated.
Fin.

Amelia's powers do NOT work like in the Animated Series. Sorry she's your least favorite Acolyte, but she has instant, long-range teleportation capacities!

Nyssane

02-11-2008, 09:33 PM

Amelia does not NEED to "extend a mist." She can transub. on sight, as was seen in Magento war OR EoD. She just DOES it. It's a PSYCHIC teleportation.

Emma psi-linked her to Tempo/Phantazia's whereabouts.
Amelia transubstantiated.
Fin.

Amelia's powers do NOT work like in the Animated Series. Sorry she's your least favorite Acolyte, but she has instant, long-range teleportation capacities!

Yes, but you said before that she does NOT teleport herself out of Justice's TK box. She just teleports the helmet off of Tempo, and I've never seen her do that. I've read most of her appearances but I haven't paid much attention to her so I might be wrong. If you show me physical proof (aka scans of panels) I will totally believe you and be all for it, but only if she's done it from such a distance as Tempo is from the other group since I state my in strategy that Tempo is at the rear which would be her quite a bit ways away from your team.

if Amelia turns herself into mist and teleports out, then Mindblast would easily capture her the minute she leaves Justice's TK field, regardless of whether or not she's in physical form.

Novaya Havoc

02-11-2008, 09:37 PM

Yes, but you said before that she does NOT teleport herself out of Justice's TK box. She just teleports the helmet off of Tempo, and I've never seen her do that. I've read most of her appearances but I haven't paid much attention to her so I might be wrong. If you show me physical proof (aka scans of panels) I will totally believe you and be all for it, but only if she's done it from such a distance as Tempo is from the other group since I state my in strategy that Tempo is at the rear which would be her quite a bit ways away from your team.

if Amelia turns herself into mist and teleports out, then Mindblast would easily capture her the minute she leaves Justice's TK field, regardless of whether or not she's in physical form.

I do not own non-Dazzler comics. This is why Mitsy provides me reference. However, it has been noted Amelia CAN teleport things ON SIGHT or with thought. It is canon, it is handbook, it is God. You want scans? I don't have them. I am not Amelia's #1 Fan, nor do I claim to be.

As Phantazia's number 1 fan, shouldn't you be CHOMPING at the bit to provide me these awesome panel references of her depowering characters from an insane distance?

Oh?

You can't?

I didn't claim to be Amelia's number one fan. You claim to be Phantazia's. Show me.

Nyssane

02-11-2008, 09:45 PM

I do not own non-Dazzler comics. This is why Mitsy provides me reference. However, it has been noted Amelia CAN teleport things ON SIGHT or with thought. It is canon, it is handbook, it is God. You want scans? I don't have them. I am not Amelia's #1 Fan, nor do I claim to be.

As Phantazia's number 1 fan, shouldn't you be CHOMPING at the bit to provide me these awesome panel references of her depowering characters from an insane distance?

Oh?

You can't?

I didn't claim to be Amelia's number one fan. You claim to be Phantazia's. Show me.

Then maybe Mitsaso can provide scans or evidence, because really... you don't seem to have any proof. Even a page from the handbooks would suffice.

I've already told you time and time again that I lost my copy of #3. I've looked everywhere for it. It even says on the back of her card battle with Storm which is based on the comic:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v231/ursula_boi/Phancard.jpg

Hi-Fi

02-11-2008, 09:47 PM

Nyssie, what mini was that? I think I can find the issue you're missing online.

Nyssane

02-11-2008, 09:49 PM

Nyssie, what mini was that? I think I can find the issue you're missing online.

It's the Hardee's X-Men special (which IS recognized as being canon by Marvel). Issue #3.

jester1436

02-11-2008, 09:50 PM

Jester's Strategy:

Lila Cheney teleports in.

Lila teleports everyone to her private cosmic concert stadium and puts on a show.

Lila wins.

Lulz.

Novaya Havoc

02-11-2008, 09:51 PM

It's the Hardee's X-Men special (which IS recognized as being canon by Marvel). Issue #3.

lulz. And I count "What If Dazzler Was the Herald of Galactus?" as canon.

Dazzler wins all.

Nyssane

02-11-2008, 09:53 PM

lulz. And I count "What If Dazzler Was the Herald of Galactus?" as canon.

Dazzler wins all.

Key word "I". :p Marvel seriously does count it as canon, as they mentioned it in an Empyrean and Crimson Commando profile.

jester1436

02-11-2008, 09:56 PM

Poor Empyrean, probably eaten by dinosaurs and turned into dino dung. :(

Edit Jester's Strategy:

Sage is not invited.

Lila still wins.

Novaya Havoc

02-11-2008, 09:56 PM

Key word "I". :p Marvel seriously does count it as canon, as they mentioned it in an Empyrean and Crimson Commando profile.

Means nothing without a panel reference of Phantazia blasting someone from far away! I have TWO panels of needing to blast CLOSE QUARTERS with her even saying "I'm IN RANGE."

Show me the monah.

Hi-Fi

02-11-2008, 09:57 PM

LOL, sorry, Nyssie. I can't find it. You're probably the only person that uploaded that book! :p ;)

Nyssane

02-11-2008, 09:59 PM

Means nothing without a panel reference of Phantazia blasting someone from far away! I have TWO panels of needing to blast CLOSE QUARTERS with her even saying "I'm IN RANGE."

Show me the monah.

Why? Why should I show you proof of that when you have shown me no proof of Amelia Voght? I never claimed to be Phantazia's number one anything, I just like the character. You like Voght. You can't have it both ways, you either give me proof of Voght or you stfu about your two measly panels.

Really, you keep saying the same things over and over again but you only seem to be dodging my requests for Voght proof.

Flâneur

02-11-2008, 10:01 PM

Means nothing without a panel reference of Phantazia blasting someone from far away! I have TWO panels of needing to blast CLOSE QUARTERS with her even saying "I'm IN RANGE."

Show me the monah.

To be fair, if someone's range is a hundred feet or whatever and they're within ten feet then it is absolutely in range. She never states that the range she's using in your panels is her maximum range.

Novaya Havoc

02-11-2008, 10:06 PM

Why? Why should I show you proof of that when you have shown me no proof of Amelia Voght? I never claimed to be Phantazia's number one anything, I just like the character. You like Voght. You can't have it both ways, you either give me proof of Voght or you stfu about your two measly panels.

Really, you keep saying the same things over and over again but you only seem to be dodging my requests for Voght proof.

I said it. I don't own Voght issues. I live in a 350 sq ft apartment, and only keep what is necessary (in comics world, this is Dazzler comics).

I have a lot more X-Men issues at my childhood home in Michigan, but they aren't here. Sorry I can't give you the panel references, but I never CLAIMED to "know" Amelia the way you say you "know" Phantazia.

To be fair, if someone's range is a hundred feet or whatever and they're within ten feet then it is absolutely in range. She never states that the range she's using in your panels is her maximum range.

100 yds. Different from 100 ft. And if we're going to throw out wild speculation on what the "extent" of people's powers are, then why not just say Dazzler could turn them all to dust? Or Emma could psi-blast the entire team and knock them out? Or Layla could know all?

There are reasonable limits. Canon shows Phantazia cannot short-circut from unreasonable distances. This holds true for this match.

Nyssane

02-11-2008, 10:09 PM

I said it. I don't own Voght issues. I live in a 350 sq ft apartment, and only keep what is necessary (in comics world, this is Dazzler comics).

I have a lot more X-Men issues at my childhood home in Michigan, but they aren't here. Sorry I can't give you the panel references, but I never CLAIMED to "know" Amelia the way you say you "know" Phantazia.

100 yds. Different from 100 ft. And if we're going to throw out wild speculation on what the "extent" of people's powers are, then why not just say Dazzler could turn them all to dust? Or Emma could psi-blast the entire team and knock them out? Or Layla could know all?

There are reasonable limits. Canon shows Phantazia cannot short-circut from unreasonable distances. This holds true for this match.

You're being a complete hypocrite. You claim Voght can do all this yet you KNOW Phantazia can't do that, it's ridiculous.

Flâneur

02-11-2008, 10:11 PM

Or Layla could know all?

On that note, I was sad you didn't use Layla to counter Phantazia's cloaking and stuff. Would've been really cool.

And everybody should like just hold hands right now and feel their inner Alexa. You'll probably both meet again in the finals so this is all pretty academic.

jester1436

02-11-2008, 10:16 PM

http://i27.tinypic.com/vfcz9f.jpg

Stop the fight! LILA WINS!

Disco Jess Minge

02-12-2008, 01:35 AM

http://i27.tinypic.com/vfcz9f.jpg

Stop the fight! LILA WINS!

(DDM-mode)Amelia Vought teleported her team out which were scattered all over the place in the Magneto War Prequel one shot (written by Fabian Nicieza and drawn by Lee Weeks, published January 1999, priced at 2.99 because it was 32 pages ad-free, bar code number 939322039-0299.) She did not need to touch everyone to grab them. Some of the acolytes were seven feet away from her. (/DDM-mode)

Lila rawks mah socks!

Swashbuckler

02-12-2008, 06:28 AM

This poll is obviously the result of the Dazzler-mafia. Some pathetic entry where a dinosaur is dropped out of no where to kill half the team should, even though you aren't supposed to use dinosaurs, shouldn't win.

Mitsaso

02-12-2008, 06:29 AM

WHAT THE FRAG?
THIS IS WHAT I WAKE UP TO!?!??!:mad:

JEEZ, NYSSIE, NOVAYA, STOP THE DAMN FIGHT!!!!!!!
I swear, I should go get a ruler right now....!!!!
That way we'll find who has the biggest clitoris, Phantazia or Amelia?!?!?!?!?:evilangry

For the argument's sake, the only Amelia issues I have are Messiah CompleX and EoD, where it's only insunuated that she used her power off panel to save Xavier from Magneto's cross while Dazzler was putting up an illusion to cover for her.
So all we really have is her wiki entry:

"Amelia Voght has the power of transsubstantiation, enabling her to convert matter into a mentally responsive, psionic vapor at will. This mist is Amelia's own natural state after her powers manifested, and she is capable of transforming herself or any person or object in her line-of-sight into this state. Loose mist is virtually insubstantial, so Amelia can use this power to avoid injury. She can control the flow of the vapor through the air, allowing her to fly, squeeze herself through tight passages, or move objects about -- she could pull a person out from under a mob attacking them by dispersing and reforming them nearby, or steal her opponents' weapons by vaporizing them into their hands and bringing them to her own. Voght's mist can also be transported through the astral plane, allowing her to employ her powers for long range teleportation. She is able to transport herself and anything else she transsubstantiates across the surface of the globe in an instant, or to and from orbit around the planet. She can teleport with cargo, or send objects to a new location within traveling with them, providing she can visualize the new location in her mind. On certain occasions, Voght even demonstrated the ability to summon distant people to herself by teleportation, visualizing wherever the person is at the moment, seeing them converted into mist, and then bringing that mist into her presence to be reformed."

That means she can teleport at will, just by thought, no matter the obstacles between her and the target. If Disco Jess Minge knows what issue number we're talking about, I might be able to find it and scan it, though.