Ultimate Iron Man an unnecesary retcon?

[Vapour Trail]

Anyone else feel that the Ultimate Iron Man series is a retcon to the character that was established in Ultimates?

In the Ultimates we have a ultra rich industrialist who discovers he's dying from a tumor. He wants to be remembered for more than being rich so he comes up with Iron Man. He wants to be a hero.

The UIM series gives him weird mutant regenerative powers, blue skin.... they took away the tragic nature of the character; a dying man wanting to go out in a blaze of glory. Plus no where else are these regenerative powers mentioned or used.

The Ultimate Human series still rocks tho'. Seems Ellis is more in touch with the character than Card.

[Just a Shadow]

I think he is.

OSC just doesn't seem to understand the point of the character. I remember reading an interview a few years ago on advanced iron where he said that he gave Tony mutant super intelligence because there is no way that a human could design the stuff that Tony does alone. But that's the whole damn point of Tony Stark. He's a human with an impossibly high level of intelligence, but at the end of the day, he's just a human. As a consequence, we were landed up with an Iron Man who has a mutant intelligence as well as a wolverine-like healing factor.

[Shadow ES]

I don't think it's a retcon. In Ultimates, Tony isn't completely honest with his teammates, and he's never injured for us to see his regenerative abilities. He could still have a tumor because of his unusual brain tissue.

[Last_Avenger]

As far as I'm concerned, Ultimates Volumes 1 and 2 are the only appearance of Iron Man in the Ultimate Universe. oh, and maybe the Gah Lak Tus thing, but toher then that, nothing else, it soils the character.

[Shadow ES]

what his appearances in USM and Ultimate War?

[ThePhenom]

what his appearances in USM and Ultimate War?

I think this is a question about what Iron Man's role is in those series? :confused:

In any case, he doesn't pop up much in USM, I recall the Ultimates patronising Spidey a fair bit. In Ultimate War he fought against Colossus mostly.

[Liberty Belle Fan]

I enjoyed Ultimates but haven't picked up UIM or UIM:II. I had no idea he had any mutant intelligence and/or healing powers, but it soudns somewhat bizarre. I guess I'll have to check it out and see for myself.

[Joe Acro]

I don't think it's a retcon.
Then you need to be informed! Whether or not it contradicts already-established information, it's still a retcon. Did you know the first time you saw Ultimate Iron Man that he grew up without a mom, was friends with a man named James Rhodes, and had ties to the Baxter Building think tank? No, you didn't. It's additive retcon magic.

[ThePhenom]

I don't think it was necessarily a bad idea, but the execution of it was all wrong.

[Shadow ES]

I think this is a question about what Iron Man's role is in those series? :confused:

whoops! I meant to ask the previous poster how those appearances fit into his comment.

Then you need to be informed! Whether or not it contradicts already-established information, it's still a retcon.
Really? I'd been told a backstory is when blanks are filled in, and retcon is when previously seen events weren't actually what happened.

[Vapour Trail]

Millar wrote Tony as a flawed human who: needs to drink to get the courage to fly the suit, pukes when he's in it, and needs a team of techs to keep it running.

Card's version (which takes place before) has him as fearless and able to put it on like he's strapping on a pair of skis or something.

And why would a man who can grow a new arm in ten minutes, get air sick anyway?

[Euchre0]

Honestly, I think Card's Iron Man is way more interesting than Millar's. I liked The Ultimates as much as the next guy, but Millar's whole take was, "Oooh, I'll make everyone 10% more hardcore!" He gave Stark a tumor and made him a drunk. Wow. Card has spun out a much more detailed and, in my opinion, much more interesting story.

Also, the current story isn't complete yet, so it could be he loses his regenerative powers which causes him to be overwhelmed with his mortality. Or maybe something bad happens in the suit so late in Ultimates he vomits when he uses it.

Geez, it's not like Ultimate Iron Man is uber canonized or anything.

[Ramirez IV]

True, Card's series is meant to be quite a bit before Ultimates. Maybe something terrible will happen to Tony in order to make him the loveable mess that Millar wrote. Admittedly I haven't touched UIM II yet, but I wouldn't write off Card's origin yet. I liked the first one.

[Tobias Drake]

whoops! I meant to ask the previous poster how those appearances fit into his comment.


Really? I'd been told a backstory is when blanks are filled in, and retcon is when previously seen events weren't actually what happened.

retcon

/ret'kon/ retroactive continuity.

The common situation in fiction where a new story "reveals"
things about events in previous stories, usually leaving the
"facts" the same (thus preserving continuity) while completely
changing their interpretation. For example, revealing that a
whole season of "Dallas" was a dream was a retcon.

I would say that, by retroactively changing the character we've seen in the Ultimates books, this qualifies as a retcon.

[gorthon616]

Honestly, I think Card's Iron Man is way more interesting than Millar's. I liked The Ultimates as much as the next guy, but Millar's whole take was, "Oooh, I'll make everyone 10% more hardcore!" He gave Stark a tumor and made him a drunk. Wow. Card has spun out a much more detailed and, in my opinion, much more interesting story.

Also, the current story isn't complete yet, so it could be he loses his regenerative powers which causes him to be overwhelmed with his mortality. Or maybe something bad happens in the suit so late in Ultimates he vomits when he uses it.

Geez, it's not like Ultimate Iron Man is uber canonized or anything.

I like Card's Iron Man, just 'cause boozing-womanizing-billionaire Tony is growing a bit old on me. I think Millar's Iron Man is a good character to be a supporting character in a book, but I don't think it would translate as well as Card's take for a solo book.

Not that Card's is the greatest thing ever. But I find it to be refreshing.

[Rock It Raccoon]

retcon

/ret'kon/ retroactive continuity.

The common situation in fiction where a new story "reveals"
things about events in previous stories, usually leaving the
"facts" the same (thus preserving continuity) while completely
changing their interpretation. For example, revealing that a
whole season of "Dallas" was a dream was a retcon.

I would say that, by retroactively changing the character we've seen in the Ultimates books, this qualifies as a retcon.

i totally agree with some of the above posters in that UIM II is a way waaaay more nuanced and innovative portrayal of stark than millar's in the ultimates. and tobias, you make a good point. BUT the simple fact is that we are not being "revealed" events about any previously established stories. it is the same character, but taken in an unforseen direction... we still don't know where his brain tumor fits into this story cause its not done yet. i mean, did you read the ultimates and feel you had a good grasp on tony stark? he may have been well written, but he wasn't exactly deep. ("never underestimate the healing powers of a blonde?" gimme a break MM)

for example, perhaps wolverine: origins is technically a giant retcon, but there are only minor quibbles with that because we're exploring an unknown area of a characters history. essentially as long as UIM ends up a recognizable version of his character (which remains to be seen) then i don't think anyone will have reason to complain. no harm, no foul.

i also think UIM II is a pretty damn awesome book, as you may have noticed.

[Vapour Trail]

I guess I feel it's a little like if it were revealed that Batman had a mutant power he never told anyone about all these years. It was the ability to strike fear into people. It fits sure, but it's unnecessary. It wouldn't be a retcon and cool Batman would now be a mutant.

But the point of the character is that he was human and he's the Batman and that's pretty cool that he's toe to toe with some heavy hitters.

[Diablito]

I loooooove Iron Man's mutant origins. Mutants are full of WIN!!

[HepOne]

Millar's Tony Stark is little more than a Parody of 616 Tony Stark. The tragic alcoholism isn't mentioned- instead he is a jovial drunk, He is more spoilt than ever and has never been more out of his depth (puking in helmet). He was insulted and ridiculed by soldiers and has very little motivation to be Iron Man. The playboy aspect was increased to the nth degree, it was revealed he was in love with Black widow, but he got over her the day she died. The only redeeming aspect of his character was his interactions with Thor. This was easily the weakest of Millar's Ultimatisation

OSC and to a lesser extent Loeb are attempting to make Ultimate Tony Stark a legitimate character with new motivations. The Ultimate Iron Man mini series have made Tony Stark a well rounded character as well as crafting an interesting story. They are one of the few editorial attempts to make a character Ultimate.

[Vapour Trail]

Millar's Tony Stark is little more than a Parody of 616 Tony Stark. The tragic alcoholism isn't mentioned- instead he is a jovial drunk, He is more spoilt than ever and has never been more out of his depth (puking in helmet). He was insulted and ridiculed by soldiers and has very little motivation to be Iron Man. The playboy aspect was increased to the nth degree, it was revealled he was in love wit Black widow, but he got over her the day she died.The only redeeming aspect of his character were his interactions with Thor. This was easily the weakest of Millar's Ultimatisation

OSC and to a lesser extent Loeb are attempting to make Ultimate Tony Stark a legitimate character with new motivations. The Ultimate Iron Man mini series have made Tony Stark a well rounded character as well as crafting an interesting story. They are one of the few editorial attempts to make a character Ultimate.

I agree, I just don't think he needed to be a mutant too.

Which is what I believe is wrong with Ultimate X-Man and right with Ultimate Spider-man. Kirkman has had every opportunity to expand on the characters previously established (like Bendis does) but instead is trying to be the guy who Ultimatized every character not already done. Of course it's easier to make up new characters than to dig deeper in the ones you already have, but you'll get a richer story if you do.

[Joe Acro]

Really? I'd been told a backstory is when blanks are filled in, and retcon is when previously seen events weren't actually what happened.Well, just consider backstory as a kind of retcon and you're good.

True, Card's series is meant to be quite a bit before Ultimates. Maybe something terrible will happen to Tony in order to make him the loveable mess that Millar wrote. Admittedly I haven't touched UIM II yet, but I wouldn't write off Card's origin yet. I liked the first one.
I've been so-so on the series, but I'm interested to see how or if it ties into what we already knew about the character before it started.

[Last_Avenger]

what his appearances in USM and Ultimate War?

Those are completely fine, however minor he somewhat seemed to be, still seemed in character to me, so it is fair game.

[Alan2099]

Keep in mind the FIRST time we saw Ultimate Ironman back in that Ultimate Team-Up book he was pretty much identicle to the regualr Ironman. He's got a history of being revamped in the ultimate books already.

[Bruce Edwards]

I used to be a massive fan of OSC, thought he could do no wrong. Then he wrote Ultimate Iron Man.

I thought Millars take on Iron Man was genius - leaving him a 'functioning alcoholic', having a support staff for the Suit. Grounding him enough so that we can relate to him, despite the fact he's a squillion dollar millionaire flying a super mechanical suit.

But ... making him a Super Mutant Brain Healing Guy ... Eugh. Too much. I thought this was the worst change to the ultimate universe they could make.

But then Jeph Loeb wrote Ultimates 3, and Ultimate Iron Man didn't seem so bad.

[Just a Shadow]

I used to be a massive fan of OSC, thought he could do no wrong. Then he wrote Ultimate Iron Man.

I thought Millars take on Iron Man was genius - leaving him a 'functioning alcoholic', having a support staff for the Suit. Grounding him enough so that we can relate to him, despite the fact he's a squillion dollar millionaire flying a super mechanical suit.

But ... making him a Super Mutant Brain Healing Guy ... Eugh. Too much. I thought this was the worst change to the ultimate universe they could make.

But then Jeph Loeb wrote Ultimates 3, and Ultimate Iron Man didn't seem so bad.

I sorta lost my faith in OSC after how badly he portrayed Peter Wiggin in Shadow of the Hegemon... the numerous continuity errors there didn't help either.

[HepOne]

I thought Millars take on Iron Man was genius - leaving him a 'functioning alcoholic', having a support staff for the Suit. Grounding him enough so that we can relate to him, despite the fact he's a squillion dollar millionaire flying a super mechanical suit.

The only difference between Millar Iron man and past portrayals in 616 was the support staff. He wasn't grounded at all, the first time we saw him he was at the peak of Mount Everest. The tumour that attempted to explain his motivations was only mentioned once, it was almost a non issue.

[Titanium]

I just want to know what's the point of the regnerating thing, does it eventually go away or what?


And wasn't Tony's tumor supposed to be getting worse in ultimates 2 and be noticeable? Did that get scrapped? One line, almost throwaway dialouge now, about a tumor was a good idea when the Ultimates started and would still be if not for the regenerative thing.

[niall mc cann]

I just want to know what's the point of the regnerating thing, does it eventually go away or what?


And wasn't Tony's tumor supposed to be getting worse in ultimates 2 and be noticeable? Did that get scrapped? One line, almost throwaway dialouge now, about a tumor was a good idea when the Ultimates started and would still be if not for the regenerative thing.

As i understood it the tumour was a result of the regeneration; loads of little cells reproducing at impractical speed, good in the beginning, now gumming up the works.

[dreyga2000]

To be honest I don't think the humor was ment to be that a big plotline rather a nod to the the heart condition that pleagued Ironman in his early years... In my mind they serve esstianlly the same purpose.

[RabidWolfe]

Well, Ultimate Human has already referenced ideas from the UIM series.

Also, Card has dropped hints about the future of Stark - there was the scene where he was warned not to drink because his body wouldn't deal with it well and he was at a high risk of alcoholism - and then he drank and enjoyed it way too much.

UIM hasn't really referenced that again, but it was there and thus ties into Millar's portrayal. I think we're too hard on UIM. It's set a few years back and so there is plenty of room for someone else to do UIM III and show the transition from Card's portrayal to Millar's version.

[desanth]

I felt that UIM1 was too steeped in scifi. Blue child, special science stuff, etc.
Then UIM2 didn't focus on it too much, it was more normal(I liked it much more for that reason). I don't like that he could pick locks with nanites or whatever, I think thats just phlebometic technology.