If The Code Had Not Existed...

[Gail Simone]

Purely hypothetical.

But I've been wondering what comics would be like today if the code hadn't been invented.

What spurred this thought on was purchasing the two big hardbacks, the first two volumes of SHOCK SUSPENSE STORIES.

I consider myself an EC fan, and I've read a ton of EC stories.

But that doesn't prepare you in the LEAST for how rough these comics get. There's a ton of stuff we'd have a very hard time getting printed in mainstream books TODAY. There's a brutal story about a black guy being framed (they actually call him n****r a couple times, I think), stories where rape is very clearly implied, adultery, cannabalism, on and on, and some of the violence is way more gory than I remembered.

And this is the late forties, early fifties, right?

Beyond that, they show a sympathetic-to-the-enemy, anti-war message, they tell stories about brutal, corrupt cops and politicians, stories about how parents are responsible for their kids going bad...

And on top of all of that, the letters pages and editorials continue to discuss these topics intelligently and fiercely.

All this during that time period where other media were sanitized into insanity.


Now, at this time, there really wasn't the notion that adults might enjoy comics, outside of some servicement, perhaps.

But can you imagine books this rough on the racks right next to the tepid, silly cartoon books of other publishers?

I don't agree with it, but I am not surprised that this stuff scared the hell out of some people. It is really that powerful even today (though some of these stories have been ripped off so many times, it seems like they're not exactly fresh, unfairly).

Add to those the TRUE CRIME comics that were very sexy and violent, and I have to wonder how long parents and church groups would have allowed these books to be published, so much more violent and sexy than the stuff available to kids elsewhere.

I know the belief is that the code was really designed to destroy EC, and that might well be true (it sounds about right), but it also seemed to be designed to head off outside censorship action from the government.

I can't look at these comics and not imagine that EC was doomed from the start, considering the political climate of the time. The ONLY thing I can imagine heading off their obliteration is if they had, like MAD MAGAZINE, jumped to a different format more aimed at adults. Mad became so popular, they couldn't really be silenced. I think partly, the jump to magazine from comic protected them in that way. I wonder what would have happened if TALES FROM THE CRYPT and SHOCK SUSPENSE STORIES had gone that way as well.

In any case, what do you think would have happened to comics if the code never existed?

Gail

[TCJohnson]

Wasn't New Frontier basically "What if DC hadn't been burdened with the Comics Code?"

[Cam63]

In any case, what do you think would have happened to comics if the code never existed?

Things certainly would've been more interesting.

[Michael P]

In any case, what do you think would have happened to comics if the code never existed?

Gail

Things now would be pretty much the same, except art comics people would blame all the problems of the industry on "corporate genre comics" instead of just "superhero comics." So I guess it would be exactly like the film industry.

[Charles RB]

The main difference I can think of is that America might not have gotten the Silver Age, at least not in the form we know it; IIRC, Showcase came about because of the Code crippling the other genres and DC needing to work out what would be the next big thing, and with the other genres undermined superhero comics got an extra advantage.

Or maybe superheroes would've made it big anyway in the late 50s and 60s, but they'd have eventually started to lose their cool and shrink downwards, as other genre-comics (lacking the Code) could've kept up with TV, film, literature et al in terms of content.

And then you might have mainstream audiences reading, or at least more than one type of genre fanbase.

And another difference is the British Invasion of the 80s might not have occured or not to the same extent - British comics (lacking a code and, at the time, having genre diversity) might not have looked as strange and exciting to the American publishers. Which means a bunch of top British creators stayed in Britain, which could have made the British industry healthier.

[AC Chris]

No way to tell.

BUT, I think of the indie explosion of the 80s & 90s as a kind of market correction. We saw incredible creative freedom like nothing in the mediums history. All the people that grew up on those are writing/drawing comics now.

The interesting thing about the code is that I feel it was designed by the companies that were getting their asses kicked by EC. It's not like the government came down and said "THIS IS LAW!". The other publishers saw it as a way to even the playing field by eliminating the appeal of EC. Gaines had MAD in his back pocket, so he more or less told them to screw off.

[LewisH]

you never see the success of Fantastic Four or Spiderman because there would not have been the overall blandness that they rebelled against in existence. Arguing teammates and heroes who fail would, no doubt, have already been done, if, that is, superhero comics even survived at all in any form.

[KevinTBrown]

If the code never existed, super-hero comics would either be dead or possibly have runs/readerships like western comics today. There would probably be a heavy concentration of science fiction and horror (much like the Saw movies).

Marvel as we know it, would not exist. There would be no Fantastic Four, no Spider-Man, no X-Men.

DC would still be called National and probably publishing House of Secrets or House of Mysteries or even Strange Sports Stories. Superman and Batman may be around in some way, but probably more "realistically violent".

EC would be the new Marvel. And Mad would not be what it is today.

Image would not exist. Erik Larsen and Rob Leifeld probably wouldn't have made it, since their art is too cartoony for horror. Todd MacFarlane might have made it. Jim Lee and Marc Silvestri probably would be working in comics.

Dark Horse may be around, but publishing more comics like Sin City and making a LOT more money.

Creators affected:

Alan Moore would not be known in America, or at least nowhere near as popular. He would have no code to "rail against" as he did with his Swamp Thing run and thereby not make a name for himself.

Creators such as Stephen Bissette, Rick Veitch, Mike Mignola and Kevin O'Neill possibly would attain a similar status as, say, a Dan DiDio or Joe Quesada.

William C. Gaines would be the new Stan Lee.

Such revered artists as Joe Kubert. John Romita, John Buscema, Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko would either not be working in comics or would just be names from the past. Kubert's school would probably not exist.

Today's popular creators would be entirely different. We would probably not know who Gail Simone, Geoff Johns, Brian K. Vaughan, et al, are....

Finally, chances are comics websites would look entirely different and the arguments would be along the lines of who drew the bloodiest scene of all time and not who could beat up who.

[AC Chris]

I think the industry would be dominated by romance comics.

[Major Comma]

The industry would be dominated by science fiction and horror, but thats not a bad thing.

[JKCarrier]

More comics moving to magazine format could've had all sorts of interesting repercussions. As it was, as printing costs escalated, comics kept cutting pages in order to keep the price the same. Which may have contributed to the impression of comics as disposable, juvenile trash. If they'd kept pace with other magazines -- more pages, slick paper, better production -- maybe they'd be more highly regarded, and attract more ambitious creators. There was so much beautiful illustration work being done in the '40s and '50s, what if some of that had rubbed off? Imagine a war comic, done in the style of this LIFE article (http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2208/2244462394_c3269b0c97.jpg), or a suave detective series done up like a Leyendecker ad (http://bp3.blogger.com/_jNfLasUQDFg/Rr-UjHe-o7I/AAAAAAAAAGM/TDhIFTEiHjc/s1600-h/leyendecker_arrow_dance.jpg). Eventually, you got guys like Wrightson, Adams, and Windsor-Smith bringing a more classical illustration influence to comics art, but what if it had happened earlier, in a more welcoming environment?

(Tangentially, my favorite "what if" scenario involving the Comics Code is William Moulton Marston living on into the '50s. Not only would we have gotten a longer run of classic Wonder Woman stories, but he's probably the only guy I can think of who would've had both the academic credentials and the balls to tear Fredric Wertham a new one.)

[stealthwise]

If the code never existed, super-hero comics would either be dead or possibly have runs/readerships like western comics today. There would probably be a heavy concentration of science fiction and horror (much like the Saw movies).

Marvel as we know it, would not exist. There would be no Fantastic Four, no Spider-Man, no X-Men.

DC would still be called National and probably publishing House of Secrets or House of Mysteries or even Strange Sports Stories. Superman and Batman may be around in some way, but probably more "realistically violent".

EC would be the new Marvel. And Mad would not be what it is today.

Image would not exist. Erik Larsen and Rob Leifeld probably wouldn't have made it, since their art is too cartoony for horror. Todd MacFarlane might have made it. Jim Lee and Marc Silvestri probably would be working in comics.

Dark Horse may be around, but publishing more comics like Sin City and making a LOT more money.

Creators affected:

Alan Moore would not be known in America, or at least nowhere near as popular. He would have no code to "rail against" as he did with his Swamp Thing run and thereby not make a name for himself.

Creators such as Stephen Bissette, Rick Veitch, Mike Mignola and Kevin O'Neill possibly would attain a similar status as, say, a Dan DiDio or Joe Quesada.

William C. Gaines would be the new Stan Lee.

Such revered artists as Joe Kubert. John Romita, John Buscema, Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko would either not be working in comics or would just be names from the past. Kubert's school would probably not exist.

Today's popular creators would be entirely different. We would probably not know who Gail Simone, Geoff Johns, Brian K. Vaughan, et al, are....

Finally, chances are comics websites would look entirely different and the arguments would be along the lines of who drew the bloodiest scene of all time and not who could beat up who.

It's interesting that you point out that Gail, BKV, and others wouldn't have been popular, when they likely would have grown up reading DIFFERENT STORIES in this "what if?" scenario. Maybe Gail would be the premier western-horror-comedy writer of today, or maybe Geoff Johns would be writing fellatious Zorro stories instead of fellatious Green Lantern stories, but it's hard to tell exactly what would have changed going this far into the future.

One certainty is that you'd probably have far more diversity in terms of genre, and I think that that would likely have led to more mainstream acceptability (see: Japan).

[Joshua Pantalleresco]

I think there'd be more variety.

The code for the most part killed comics outside the super hero genre for a long time. A lot of great stuff got canned because of it. Just imagine if some of those series could have continued. I think they'd still be printed today.

But a really giddy geeky part of me just thinks of all the talent back in the 60s, and 70s. Can you imagine what kind of comics Jack Kirby or Stan Lee would have done for marvel if it wasn't for the code? How about Elliot Maggin, Curt Swan or Joe Kubert?

Imagine seeing science fiction stuff from guys like Harlan Ellison or Michael Moorcock in comic form without a trace of the comics code. Or how about guys like Alfred Hitchcock or Ray Bradbury? I think honestly our literature would be more graphic, but I tend to think the overall quality would be higher because of it.

That's not taking anything away from anyone today, but there are limits in what you can do with superheroes. We'd have more war stories, science fiction, horror, romance, kids books, you name it. Comics would be what manga is today in the bookstores. You can buy action, battle, science fiction, historical, romance, and all these genres in Manga. I think comics would have gone in the same direction.

Would the same writers still be out there today? I think so for the most part. Would they be telling the same stories though? That I'm not so sure.

JP

[Pink Bat Maxine]

Things certainly would've been more interesting.

Actually, I disagree.
I think that the presence of the code gave way to some of the truly mad anything-goes fun that's synonymous with comics today. The Silver Age was a high point of sheer invention in comics, and I think the presence of the limitation actually required more imagination and gave us more creative results than if there were no code at all.

[Charles RB]

I think that the presence of the code gave way to some of the truly mad anything-goes fun that's synonymous with comics today.

I disagree with this assertion - British comics managed that without any Code equivalent. Same thing, as far as I've seen, happened for Japan.

[PatrickG]

Pretty much what you see on this page, third link down (http://www.heroesink.com/supergirl.htm).

Look for "Naughty Krypto". A Silver Age artist drawing Silver Age characters. An image that is NOT work safe.

Beyond that, more horror comics and less proliferation of super-heroes.

Incidentally, I would kill to see the Jurassic Park and Super-Cowgirl stories developed.

[zuludelta]

In any case, what do you think would have happened to comics if the code never existed?

Gail

I've read my fair share of the old EC stuff, and yes, I agree that a lot of it was over the top, even by today's standards. Without the Code, though, I think the industry (by which I mean the creative contributors such as the artists, writers, editors, etc., and not the publishing and distribution sectors which backed the creation of the CCA) would have eventually self-regulated itself and created some sort of unofficial professional standards that most publishers would have held themselves to.

What would be different had the code not existed? I think it's a fair assessment to say that there'd probably be more variety out there, not just superheroes and the sometimes self-important "indie" flavour-of-the-month. The CCA made it that much more difficult for creators working in other genres besides superheroes (such as satire, crime fiction, horror, SF, war comics, romance comics, etc.) to make appealing material without violating the Code. The American comics industry would probably be a lot more like the Japanese or European industry in their respective geographical areas... more relevant to the popular art milieu and not so much a niche industry. For most of North America, comics = superheroes (and there's all sorts of baggage that comes with that equation), and a lot of that has to do with the CCA hobbling other comic book genre fiction for most of the second half of the last century.

[PatrickG]

I don't know that I can refer to anything that can be described as part of a "milieu" as being anything BUT niche. Maybe a bigger niche but...

I'm all about the comics code. I think it fostered creativity and saved the industry, even if it was instituted corruptly.

[zuludelta]

I'm all about the comics code. I think it fostered creativity and saved the industry, even if it was instituted corruptly.

I guess that's one way to look at it.

As for myself, I think we should be glad that we had all that creativity in spite of the CCA. The CCA's implementation heavily favoured juvenile fare, and I think it was a major factor in the commercial demise of other comic fiction genres that were not targeted specifically towards an adolescent male readership. I think it restricted what kinds of stories could be told and in what ways they could be told.

Obviously, it's hard to speak in definite terms since we're all talking about this with the benefit of hindsight, but we can look towards the experience of other comic book publishing countries that did not labour under something like the CCA. I remember reading komiks as a kid in the Philippines during the tail-end of the Filipino comics boom (that spanned the 1950s all the way to the 1980s), and I kid you not, there was so much more variety in the material published there, and there was no widespread notion that komiks were strictly for boys interested in superheroes. Sure, there was a lot of trashy stuff, but there was a proportionate amount of great material as well. Romance comics were almost as popular as daytime TV soap operas among the older female demographic, and horror, adventure, humour, and action-thriller comics were exceedingly popular across gender and age differences. Part of that popularity was because there were comics aimed at older readers alongside more juvenile fare, and it was precisely because there was no medium-specific moral overseer like the CCA deciding for everybody else that comics are primarily a child's medium of entertainment.

I guess what I find most offensive about the CCA is that it took the decision to choose what comics should be about away from the creators' and readership's hands. Any other industry would let the market dictate what direction it should go (within reason, of course), but the CCA, for all intents and purposes, came down and basically made any other venture besides juvenile comics largely unprofitable. Would the North American comic book industry have turned into the somewhat creatively hobbled superhero-centric concern it is today without the Code? Maybe yes, maybe no, but that's the thing. The CCA pre-emptively pruned what was reasonably available out there, even before the market and the creative personalities involved could decide what it was that they wanted comics in North America to be, all in the name of the mistaken notion that "comics are for kids."

[Crowley]

I think they only difference the code made was that it limited mainstream comics to being a children's medium.

Without the code I think Mainstream US comics might have flourished and become more like comics in Europe and Japan.

[Spike-X]

That pirate comics boom would have been huge.

[Pink Bat Maxine]

I disagree with this assertion - British comics managed that without any Code equivalent. Same thing, as far as I've seen, happened for Japan.

Perhaps.

But that doesn't negate the charms that were cultivated by writers working under restriction. Superman Red/Superman Blue could only have happened in the US. Same for Bizarro World. Or Batman & Robin using giant sized props to stop the Joker. Hell, a power ring being useless against the color yellow.... all of these stories or story elements flourished in the US, and many more of the like, because the restirctions forced the writers of American comics to be creative with showing conflict. And these elements are some of my favorite in comics.

[Red Berens]

Perhaps.

But that doesn't negate the charms that were cultivated by writers working under restriction. Superman Red/Superman Blue could only have happened in the US. Same for Bizarro World. Or Batman & Robin using giant sized props to stop the Joker. Hell, a power ring being useless against the color yellow.... all of these stories or story elements flourished in the US, and many more of the like, because the restirctions forced the writers of American comics to be creative with showing conflict. And these elements are some of my favorite in comics.


I couldn't have said it any better - you hit the nail on the head.

[Pink Bat Maxine]

Pretty much what you see on this page, third link down (http://www.heroesink.com/supergirl.htm).

Look for "Naughty Krypto". A Silver Age artist drawing Silver Age characters. An image that is NOT work safe.

Beyond that, more horror comics and less proliferation of super-heroes.

Incidentally, I would kill to see the Jurassic Park and Super-Cowgirl stories developed.

This guy should be hired by DC.

And never, ever, EVER allowed to work on a title with animals in it. :eek:

[Spike-X]

"This guy" was the regular artist on the Supergirl stories in Action Comics from 1959-68.

[Pink Bat Maxine]

"This guy" was the regular artist on the Supergirl stories in Action Comics from 1959-68.

My face is red.

Knowing is half the battle! Thanks, Spike!

[Pink Bat Maxine]

I couldn't have said it any better - you hit the nail on the head.

Thanks. Glad it's not just me!

[Charles RB]

But that doesn't negate the charms that were cultivated by writers working under restriction.

It entirely negates the assertion that comics would be less "mad" and "fun" without the Code if countries without the Code managed to have "mad" "fun" comics perfectly happily. (And Golden Age comics were hardly sane and restrained...)

And I dunno how the Green Lantern ring being weak against yellow is dependant solely on the Code - the ring needs some vulnerability for there to be tension, "let's have it be a different colour!" doesn't sound like an idea too beholden to the Code.

[Pink Bat Maxine]

It entirely negates the assertion that comics would be less "mad" and "fun" without the Code if countries without the Code managed to have "mad" "fun" comics perfectly happily. (And Golden Age comics were hardly sane and restrained...)

And I dunno how the Green Lantern ring being weak against yellow is dependant solely on the Code - the ring needs some vulnerability for there to be tension, "let's have it be a different colour!" doesn't sound like an idea too beholden to the Code.

I gotta say, I think it's probably most profitable to agree to disagree here. I can't imagine this exchange going anywhere positive beyond restating of opinions. Cool?

[Charles RB]

I gotta say, I think it's probably most profitable to agree to disagree here.

Probably, yeah.

[PatrickG]

BTW, my argument is that "no code" would have resulted in the government crushing the industry.

I do think there could have been a BETTER code which wasn't designed to put publishers under and made more allowances for diverse audiences.

[Tyr]

Just out of curiosity, has the code been dropped? or at the very least does anyone know when they up and decided to drop the code from covers? From my collection it looks like they had it on covers well into 2004.

[PatrickG]

Marvel dropped the code and DC only puts it on books that pass. Theoretically, a small number of newstands might still refuse to carry books without it but I'd be surprised.

It's more of a prestige thing for DC (and Archie?) to use the code seal and they pay a good deal for it.

Put it this way though -- The Comics Code Authority doesn't even have a proper website last I checked.

That should indicate their relevance.

[Tyr]

Marvel dropped the code and DC only puts it on books that pass. Theoretically, a small number of newstands might still refuse to carry books without it but I'd be surprised.

It's more of a prestige thing for DC (and Archie?) to use the code seal and they pay a good deal for it.

Put it this way though -- The Comics Code Authority doesn't even have a proper website last I checked.

That should indicate their relevance.

Yeah I just wikied the thing, though it doesn't look like DC carries the code all that much for their DC Universe anymore, I guess Gail's work is just to naughty for the CCA. ;)

[Spike-X]

Why bother? It's not like kids are buying mainstream Marvel/DC Universe titles anyway.

Which seems to be just the way they want it, for some reason.

[Briareos]

I would still be trying to beat Contra oh wait different code...

[Tyr]

I would still be trying to beat Contra oh wait different code...

Ya moron, they're talkin about da' Super Mario Brothers continue code, get it straight! :p

[zuludelta]

But that doesn't negate the charms that were cultivated by writers working under restriction. Superman Red/Superman Blue could only have happened in the US. Same for Bizarro World. Or Batman & Robin using giant sized props to stop the Joker. Hell, a power ring being useless against the color yellow.... all of these stories or story elements flourished in the US, and many more of the like, because the restirctions forced the writers of American comics to be creative with showing conflict. And these elements are some of my favorite in comics.

Well, see, the problem with that line of thinking is that we can argue that maybe those stories would still have happened sans Code. I'll be the first to say that it isn't very productive going over the would'ves and could'ves, but I can't help but speculate about all the potentially good stories we never got to read because of the Code restrictions.

[Wonder Watcher]

Can censorship promote creativity ? of course.
Does censorship stifle artistic freedom ?. absolutely.

Since comics are an artistic endeavour my position is the code has been a negative influence rather than a blessing in disguise.

[Pink Bat Maxine]

Can censorship promote creativity ? of course.
Does censorship stifle artistic freedom ?. absolutely.

Since comics are an artistic endeavour my position is the code has been a negative influence rather than a blessing in disguise.

Why qualify it as 'good' or 'bad' for comics?

Letting go of value judgement, how would it have been different? I think that's the main thrust of the question. And it most assuredly would have been different.

[Tyr]

If there was no CCA, comics would not be admissible in court. :p

[Wonder Watcher]

Why qualify it as bad ? Simply because as a general rule I'm against censorship in art.

How would it have been different ?. It'd be easy to say a lot more sex and violence but comics in the UK had no code and didn't go too far in that direction.

So I'll say a bit more sex, a bit more violence, more coverage of controversial subjects.

Wouldn't have had 20 years of characters saying "witch" instead of "bitch". ie more realistic dialogue.

[Pink Bat Maxine]

Why qualify it as bad ? Simply because as a general rule I'm against censorship in art.

How would it have been different ?. It'd be easy to say a lot more sex and violence but comics in the UK had no code and didn't go too far in that direction.

So I'll say a bit more sex, a bit more violence, more coverage of controversial subjects.

Wouldn't have had 20 years of characters saying "witch" instead of "bitch". ie more realistic dialogue.

DO you believe there's anything that would have been lost?

Seriously, just curious here.

[Wonder Watcher]

Something must have been lost, but then again we've had something different to replace it.

The old masters had to work under very strict censorship but nobody is saying "Ah, the Mona Lisa is great but if only Leonardo had been freed of the shackles of the church..."

So, we got something different, with it's own qualities.

I'm still not a fan of censorship however.

[Pink Bat Maxine]

Something must have been lost, but then again we've had something different to replace it.

The old masters had to work under very strict censorship but nobody is saying "Ah, the Mona Lisa is great but if only Leonardo had been freed of the shackles of the church..."

So, we got something different, with it's own qualities.

I'm still not a fan of censorship however.

Oh, nor am I, don't get me wrong.

I am a fan of comics created in the CCA era, under the strictist regulations of the CCA. The credit to why they were good isn't with the CCA, it was with the creators who managed to create something wonderful and remarkably imaginative despite the censorship.

[Wonder Watcher]

I can agree with that.

But let's formally bin the code now.

[Tyr]

Oh, nor am I, don't get me wrong.

I am a fan of comics created in the CCA era, under the strictist regulations of the CCA. The credit to why they were good isn't with the CCA, it was with the creators who managed to create something wonderful and remarkably imaginative despite the censorship.

I think when we say CCA era we should really narrow it down a bit, since the CCA era really spans from the silver age era all the way up to the year 2000. Which period in time are you reffering too?