Bill Clinton's LGBT legacy....

[Pink Bat Maxine]

A friend and I were arguing earlier on this topic, and I thought I'd seek people who may be more up on the Clinton legacy.

Some people remember Bill Clinton as Mr. LGBT rights (and assume Hillary will be the same way.) I remember, in '92, cheering his election because he's campaigned to the community among other reasons. But when I look back at his history, it's a little less impressive. I recall the Gays in the Military issue rapidly sinking into the 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' policy which has by all reports been an utter farce. Then I recall him sighing the DoMA (Defense of Marriage Act) verbalizing enthusiastic support for the bill, and the need to 'protect traditional marriage'. Then in 96, I recall when in a debate someone tried to pin him down on LGBT rights issues, I recall him saying 'some people believe in gay rights, and some Americans believe it's terribly wrong' or somesuch and leaving it at that.

So really folks.... remind me if I'm wrong.... but what did Bill Clinton do for LGBT rights other than appointing a few Ls and Gs to beaurocratic positions?

And really, why do people see Hillary as being a godsend to LGBT people?

[kingdom2000]

I don't think Bill had much of a Legacy. He did do alot to endear the world to the US...but that has long since been pissed away. He did preside over a strong economy...but I think thats more because he had enough sense to leave well enough along and simple let it do its thing rather then muck with it. Well that and Greenspan.

Sadly, his real "Legacy" is Lewinsky. Whether 10 or 50 years from now, regardless of how long or short his bio, that will take up most of the space. I am not saying he didn't accomplish anything, but what he did was eliminated by Bush and the republicans whenever they could. They pretty much took a scorched earth approach. If they spent more time leading instead of trying to ruin Clinton and engaging in corruption, they might actually have accomplished something of value and not be the underdogs after only 6 years (vs Dems 30). A true Legacy can't be undone that easily.

Its part of the reason all this recent crap about him screwing with his Legacy from the press (especially Faux Noise) annoys me. Notice in all that nonsense they never define this so-called legacy he is supposedly sacrifing for his wife. Nevermind the history books are not going to waste time talking about how he campaigned for wife, hell they barely talk about how anyone campaigned, just the landmark failures or successes. Its the just the moronic talking heads regurgitating what they saw elsewhere (Faux) because it sounds knowledgable (but isn't).

[beetlebum]

Pandora's box is opened, *runs for cover, hides*


I think the support may come out of the fact that he was the first to acknowledge gays as a demographic, as opposed to completely ignoring them as did previous administrations.

I suspect the sentimental adherence may be similar to the way African Americans felt for FDR. In the area of civil rights, he didn't really do much, but he did acknowledge that discrimination was wrong and his New Deal saved America.

Clinton helped foster 8 years of prosperity in America, but no sweeping changes were made.

But I really don't know. *shrugs* I just recently came out as bi and besides, I'm an Obama gurl. :p

[Sabrinaset]

I just recently came out as bi and besides, I'm an Obama gurl. :p

It TOOK long enough to get her to admit what we ALL knew! Although I thought Beetle was a Lao Gurl! :confused:

[beetlebum]

Well, I would have kept it a secret longer if you had not insisted on posting those videos and those pictures of me online! :mad:

And she makes 50'000$ a year and I don't see a dime! :evilangry:

And I can be an Obama gurl and a Lao gurl! I'm bi after all, I can do two things at once (Preferably Katherine Heigl and Kristen Bell...)

beetlebum, ruining the English language one "gurl" at a time!

(As if text messaging didn't do enough already! ;p)

[Evan Waters]

To his credit, he did repeal an executive order that denied federal security clearance to homosexual employees.

[Alan Lynch]

To his credit, he did repeal an executive order that denied federal security clearance to homosexual employees.
Someone thought gay people wouldn't respect national security? Fuck, that's stupid.

[Winslow]

Someone thought gay people wouldn't respect national security? Fuck, that's stupid.

It was based on the idea that if they were closeted, they could be blackmailed or pressured to give up government secrets. The policy was a reflection of the bigotry of our culture.

(Not defending the policy, just explaining it)

[Solaris]

Sigh. Yeah, Maxine---the talk was good, but the delivery failed abysmally.

Dratted politicians.

[Alan Lynch]

It was based on the idea that if they were closeted, they could be blackmailed or pressured to give up government secrets. The policy was a reflection of the bigotry of our culture.

(Not defending the policy, just explaining it)
Ah, I see; thanks. Straight people don't have secrets then.

[Flamebird]

Someone thought gay people wouldn't respect national security? Fuck, that's stupid.

Yeah apparently gays are no good at keeping secrets.

Just ask Rock Hudson; or pretty much anyone that has had to hide who and what they are to survive.


Though what that says about "don't ask, Don't tell"; leaves me a bit confused.

[Pink Bat Maxine]

Sigh. Yeah, Maxine---the talk was good, but the delivery failed abysmally.

Dratted politicians.

Exactly.
He totally lost me with DOMA.
He could have vetoed.
He could have signed it, but protested.
He could have signed it and kept his yap shut.

Instead he signed it, giving it a hearty endorsement as a moral imperative to protect the institution of marriage against homosexuals. And smiled for the cameras. And that's where I realized that.... at heart.... the man's an oppertunistic sleaze.

[Alan Lynch]

Bush would've gotten away with a whole lot if he could play an instrument, let alone a cool one like the saxaphone.

[Gail Simone]

I think Bill Clinton will have a massive political legacy. I think he's going to be the Ronald Reagan (a president his party will invoke endlessly) of the Democrats.

But yeah, he dropped a lot of his supporters for political appearances and that just irritates me to no end.

Say what you like about Bush, but it's pretty clear he doesn't mind offending people.

Gail

[the4thpip]

I think Bill Clinton will have a massive political legacy. I think he's going to be the Ronald Reagan (a president his party will invoke endlessly) of the Democrats.

But yeah, he dropped a lot of his supporters for political appearances and that just irritates me to no end.

Say what you like about Bush, but it's pretty clear he doesn't mind offending people.

Gail

And for some reason, Bush can offend all of humanity but a majority still would like to have a beer with him at a barbecue. The biggest lie THAT devil ever told is that he is a likable guy.

It's like he found the perfect lube to fuck sheep up the ass.

[Libaax]

Clinton might not have been really great for interior politics in US but he was a great President for US to people outside US.

He did alot good for the rep of US in the world.

He didnt bomb every other country in middle east, he didnt try to rule the world like a tyrant like the current president.....


Despite Lewinsky i think thats his legacy to us that live outside US.

[Sally Sensational]

What I recall about Clinton's LGBT legacy - Sk is a lot more familiar with it - is that, although HE didn't do a lot governmentally, it was during his tenure that a lot of companies began to see the light in terms of discrimination and start creating policies that protected LGBT employees and took care of their families. Many of those policies got left by the wayside when the new administration took over. Society as a whole was gradually getting used to the idea that "we're here, we're queer, and we're not going anywhere" wasn't a bad thing, just a fact of life. The challenge Bill faced was realizing that he couldn't do everything as quickly as he promised in his campaign, so he tried to create policies that would grow into the results he wanted.

I was also under the impression at the time that the DOMA was a stop-gap to try and keep the fundies from amending the constitution instead. It was another sort of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" kind of thing in the idea that, if we SAY we're protecting "traditional" marriage, then maybe the rabid people will shut up and policies can go on evolving toward greater equality like they have been.

Many of Clinton's domestic policies can be viewed that way. Had they continued to be used in the way they were intended, rather than completely dismantled by the new administration, "don't ask, don't tell" would have evolved into "don't worry about it" and DOMA would have been the sort of memory that the miscegenation policies (many of which were never actually repealed) are now. His welfare reforms, coupled with the spending policies of his era, would have resulted in an almost complete dismantling of the previous welfare state. Minimum wage would have gone up step-wise every couple of years, rather than being stagnant for so long. His balanced budget (ish) would have continued to result in surpluses.

The problem was that Clinton and the rest of his administration had too much confidence that the balls they started rolling couldn't be stopped. So, the legacy he desired to leave didn't actually happen. Had he, or someone who shared his ideals, had another 8 or 10 years in power, the things he wanted to see done might have had a chance.

[jerrymcl89]

I think Bill Clinton will have a massive political legacy. I think he's going to be the Ronald Reagan (a president his party will invoke endlessly) of the Democrats.

But yeah, he dropped a lot of his supporters for political appearances and that just irritates me to no end.

Say what you like about Bush, but it's pretty clear he doesn't mind offending people.

Gail

Bush doesn't mind offending 49% of the people. But I don't exactly see him going to the mat against a big chunk of his own supporters over his opinions on immigration, for example.

I think the bottom line on Clinton with regard to gay rights is that it's an issue on which he was willing to do what he could, but it wasn't a high priority that he was going to expend serious political capital on. So if that issue is important to you, it's one on which he was just a so-so President.

[KevinTBrown]

The problem was that Clinton and the rest of his administration had too much confidence that the balls they started rolling couldn't be stopped. So, the legacy he desired to leave didn't actually happen. Had he, or someone who shared his ideals, had another 8 or 10 years in power, the things he wanted to see done might have had a chance.

Unfortunately, the balls didn't get stopped, they got put in full reverse and things are far worse off than BEFORE he took office.

[Sally Sensational]

Unfortunately, the balls didn't get stopped, they got put in full reverse and things are far worse off than BEFORE he took office.

That, too. Although I am told that, with the political winds of change blowing, companies like Wal-Mart (and we all know how much influence they have) are beginning to re-evaluate the policies they dropped when Bush took over and starting to head in the other direction again.

[HomerJay]

I dunno about his LGBT legacy, but his BLT legacy was heart surgery.

Thank you. Tip your waitress.

[Pink Bat Maxine]

Thank you, Sally. You've reminded me of a few pertinent points.

I disagree with you on the evolution of 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell'.... I think that was a mishandled policy that arose from a bad compromise. I still think he did the wrong thing on DOMA, but thank you for reminding me of some of the context behind that battle that I had forgotten.

And it is absolutely true that there was some progress made during his tenure. It would be an interesting debate to discuss how much of that he can actually take partial credit for. My inclination was that much of that progress arose from him not being as active a barrier to progress that other administrations had been, and that LGBT activists deserve far greater credit. But I suppose that failing to active oppose progress (except in a few areas) is something that he could be credited with.

[sk716]

A friend and I were arguing earlier on this topic, and I thought I'd seek people who may be more up on the Clinton legacy.

Some people remember Bill Clinton as Mr. LGBT rights (and assume Hillary will be the same way.) I remember, in '92, cheering his election because he's campaigned to the community among other reasons. But when I look back at his history, it's a little less impressive. I recall the Gays in the Military issue rapidly sinking into the 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' policy which has by all reports been an utter farce. Then I recall him sighing the DoMA (Defense of Marriage Act) verbalizing enthusiastic support for the bill, and the need to 'protect traditional marriage'. Then in 96, I recall when in a debate someone tried to pin him down on LGBT rights issues, I recall him saying 'some people believe in gay rights, and some Americans believe it's terribly wrong' or somesuch and leaving it at that.

So really folks.... remind me if I'm wrong.... but what did Bill Clinton do for LGBT rights other than appointing a few Ls and Gs to beaurocratic positions?

And really, why do people see Hillary as being a godsend to LGBT people?

Two words: Matthew Sheppard

[PatrickG]

Two words: Matthew Sheppard

Clinton didn't accomplish anything there though, did he?

Matthew Shepard happened to be murdered while Clinton was in office but the hate crime laws at the federal level have not been significantly expanded.

I'd credit Clinton with raising the issue but I don't see where he necessarily has a substantial legacy there, aside from being the first president who wasn't silent on gay rights or a blatant homophobe.

At the same time, talk is cheap and I'd imagine that there almost had to be prior presidents with a level of quiet tolerance and respect for homosexuals. I get the impression that the founders, particularly guys like Jefferson and Franklin, had a pretty open mind on issues like sexuality. And it wouldn't shock me if some closeted homosexuals and bisexuals held public office.

Clinton gets credit for broaching the topic but I don't know that amounts to a legacy.

[jerrymcl89]

I think that even though unfavorable laws have passed in a number of states, and the federal government is hostile, acceptance of gays has continued to move inexorably forward even during the Bush years. People who are old enough that their views would never change die, and people grow up having more acceptance. A few places have gay marriage, and some others probably will before too long. People who resist it will probably realize, as they see it around them, that it doesn't actually impact their lives very much. And eventually, it will just seem normal.

I'm not gay, and so to me this slow evolution seems fine. I'm sure for people who are, and who do not have the rights they ought to have, it's not. But things are moving in the right direction. And that's the context Clinton's record has to be put in. His Presidency was, all things considered, pretty recent. But attitudes have changed since then more than people realize. Judging him by today's standards is like asking Harry Truman to do for blacks what Lyndon Johnson did.

[sk716]

Clinton didn't accomplish anything there though, did he?

Matthew Shepard happened to be murdered while Clinton was in office but the hate crime laws at the federal level have not been significantly expanded.

I'd credit Clinton with raising the issue but I don't see where he necessarily has a substantial legacy there, aside from being the first president who wasn't silent on gay rights or a blatant homophobe.

At the same time, talk is cheap and I'd imagine that there almost had to be prior presidents with a level of quiet tolerance and respect for homosexuals. I get the impression that the founders, particularly guys like Jefferson and Franklin, had a pretty open mind on issues like sexuality. And it wouldn't shock me if some closeted homosexuals and bisexuals held public office.

Clinton gets credit for broaching the topic but I don't know that amounts to a legacy.

It doesn't. Pink asked why "Some people remember Bill Clinton as Mr. LGBT rights (and assume Hillary will be the same way.) "

Matthew Sheppard and your own thoughts, bolded above, explain it. He doesn't have to have actually accomplished anything. Since no other President has, he's kind of ahead of the pack for at least trying.

[Crowley]

Clinton's other legacy is the budget surplus. He was the most fiscally responsible president of the last 25 years.

[kingdom2000]

Clinton's other legacy is the budget surplus. He was the most fiscally responsible president of the last 25 years.

again a legacy can't be just wiped away and that budget surplus was pretty much flushed down the drain years ago after Bush's first gift to his corporate friends.

[Crowley]

I can't disagree that Bush flushed... but the fact that Clinton set out to balance the budget and made it possible for the next president to take that ball and run with it... isn't lost.

[KevinTBrown]

Clinton's other legacy is the budget surplus. He was the most fiscally responsible president of the last 25 years.

Well, whomever wins this year will have one hell of an uphill climb to accomplish even half of that.... I don't even think 2 terms will be enough to get the budget balanced, if it ever happens again.

[Pink Bat Maxine]

Two words: Matthew Sheppard

....explain the connection?

....and do those same connections apply to Brandon Teena?

[TCJohnson]

....explain the connection?

....and do those same connections apply to Brandon Teena?

When Matthew Sheppard was murdered, Clinton tried hard to extend federal hate crime legislation to include gay and lesbian individuals, women, and people with disabilities. Unfortunately his attempts never made it past the House, but Clinton was pushing for it.

[PatrickG]

I'm pretty jaded on the political process. I tend to think of legacy in larger terms.

I think Reagan's legacy, for instance, is tremendous charisma, jelly beans and a corrupt administration.

I think Clinton's legacy is even greater charisma, a decent economy and a blowjob.

Bush? His legacy will be for conveying a tough "common guy" demeanor, being president during 9-11 and Iraq. I think his attitudes on immigration are groundbreaking and one of the few positive things I can say about his administration but I don't think it will be his legacy because he didn't succeed. Same for Bill Clinton and Shepard.

That's one reason why I can't support Hillary Clinton or John McCain. They both have a few (not that many, really) ideas I agree with in some capacity but I don't think either could succeed in implementing those ideas.

Talk is cheap in a field filled with lies, even earnest talk. Persuasion and method and results matter more than policy for me at this point, having supported more than my share of candidates -- both liberal and conservative -- who I agree with on a great many things but who could never manage to get more than 2-3% of the vote or who, when elected, succeed only in the issues I disagree with them on.

[Lester C.]

For those of us that aren't hip, what does LGBT stand for? It sounds like a sandwitch. Other than Lesbian and Gay for the life of me can't figure out the B and the T.

[a. non]

For those of us that aren't hip, what does LGBT stand for? It sounds like a sandwitch. Other than Lesbian and Gay for the life of me can't figure out the B and the T.

B = bisexual; T = transgender.