The Pro-single thread.

[DeadXMan]

for yinthere must be yang
and so this thread is dedicated to those that believe Pete should of never married MJ
Are interested in how this will play out and what significance issue 600 will play
and new and returning fans of single spidey.

[Matt Linton]

http://www.hembeck.com/Images/FredSez/BettyBrantSpideySeven440.jpg

http://www.littlestuffedbull.com/images/comics/gwenQ.jpg

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/f/fe/200px-Black_cat_kiss.jpg

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1023/1486683920_904e89f719_o.jpg

[spiderman_rj]

where do i sign ?

[DeadXMan]

you already have :D

[richjb77]

clearly you don't have many supporters...29 views and only 3 posts.

I

[richjb77]

clearly you don't have many supporters...29 views and only 3 posts.

I

[richjb77]

make that 7 posts...

I grew up with him married...

the marriage wasn't the problem...the writing was.

[Spider-Sense]

Single Peter Parker rocks.

[DeadXMan]

clearly you don't have many supporters...29 views and only 3 posts.

I


a single spark can cause an infrno within a forest of dead wood

[richjb77]

good point. Still I am pro-single in Ultimate Spider-man...but I could have lived with a married spider-man

[DeadXMan]

what about those that are anti MJ.
why must we have him with her.

[JohnnyC]

I guess I'm sort of pro-single Peter, as long as he's never portrayed as a guy who will die alone; I don't think that's really Peter's character.

[Maestro]

Spider-Man should always have a love interest or two. He just shouldn't be married.

[Matt Linton]

Spider-Man should always have a love interest or two. He just shouldn't be married.

I agree. The best thing about Peter dating is that each love interest can be handled differently, and go in different directions. It also helps develop subplots that can turn into bigger stories (death of Captain Stacy, Molten Man, Black Cat).

[DeadXMan]

I agree. The best thing about Peter dating is that each love interest can be handled differently, and go in different directions. It also helps develop subplots that can turn into bigger stories (death of Captain Stacy, Molten Man, Black Cat).



your right, I think they have exhusted MJ for the time.

[sugarmanandrobin]

You know, I'm a fan of single Pete. But I'm certainly not a fan of the way they brought it about. I mean, did the Parkers' marriage really NEED to be ended by some devilish dealings with Mephisto? He's constantly in peril, their child was baby-napped, he was a potential clone for awhile, she was kidnapped because of him (sort of), MJ and Pete had a hiatus before Civil War ever began, and afterwards...what? MJ goes from being rising star to a fugitive with no problems? That marriage had failure written all over it. Why does Marvel over complicate things? Just take the road to rationality and have MJ get fed up with all the Bride of Spiderman shenanigans she goes through daily.

But wait...that would make sense, which totally go against the theme Marvel's been working with the past year or so.

I guess Marvel's gotta stick with the whole wacky, nonsensical plottwist for symmetry, but...eh. I don't know. I'd have rather see characters deal with their issues like real people.

[Johnny Drama]

mark me down in the pro swinging single camp...

when i first got into comics, i started with spidey and at the time he was hitched. I went along with it and accepted it but when my interest deepened I branched out into the Essential volumes and various back issues and I came to prefer Pete as a bachelor. For me, he's a much better character when he's single and I'm stoked that Marvel have cancelled the marriage.

Having said that, I was never a big fan of MJ, but after reading last year's Sensational Annual I think MJ is the one he should eventually end up with.

[BlackToe]

I was only interested in the marriage during the early days when it still had some gas and interest.

Now I'm glad they got rid of it. It got too stale, unrealistic and cheesy. Plus Marvel admitted they were'nt going to go anywhere with it, so there was really no point in keeping it anyways. It was literally a ball and chain on Spider-man as a character. It had to go.

[Leocomix]

I don't care either way. People think of me as a pro-OMD/BND poster but I just recognize editors and writers prefer a single Spider-Man and find it too hard to write an entertaining married one. I'd rather have a setup that pleases them so they write good stories than one they don't like and have tried to undo for 15 years with poor stories.

[JohnnyC]

Yeah, that makes sense.

I mean, look at how many writers and artists have flocked to this title for Brand New Day. It's insane, man! I can't wait for JRJR to get on the title, with Dan Slott writing. It's gonna be great!

[ZT4]

I was only interested in the marriage during the early days when it still had some gas and interest.

Now I'm glad they got rid of it. It got too stale, unrealistic and cheesy. Plus Marvel admitted they were'nt going to go anywhere with it, so there was really no point in keeping it anyways.

This proves my point. If this hadnt done this, people would still see that there was gas in the tank. The marraige didnt fail Marvel, Marvel failed the marraige. THEY gave up on it.

And making deals with the devil and having Spidey single with a cast of dead weights is stale, unreallistic, and cheesy.

The real ball and chain is Editorial narrow-mindedness. And it wont last. It's laughable enough this thread is more a reaction to the pro-marraige thread and the constant arguments the anti-marraige faction lose than anything that should have occured after OMD was published. This is only up because we've beaten them, they cant win an argument, so they have no choice but to wither and die in their own thread....

Spidey WILL have his true love back, and even then all fans will lap it up as always. People take sides. Simple as that.

I don't care either way. People think of me as a pro-OMD/BND poster but I just recognize editors and writers prefer a single Spider-Man and find it too hard to write an entertaining married one. I'd rather have a setup that pleases them so they write good stories than one they don't like and have tried to undo for 15 years with poor stories.

There have been entertaining pro-marraige storylines.

There have been entertaining pro-marraige storylines.

There have been entertaining pro-marraige storylines.


One for the chalkboard Bart Simpson

[Mister Mets]

You know, I'm a fan of single Pete. But I'm certainly not a fan of the way they brought it about. I mean, did the Parkers' marriage really NEED to be ended by some devilish dealings with Mephisto? He's constantly in peril, their child was baby-napped, he was a potential clone for awhile, she was kidnapped because of him (sort of), MJ and Pete had a hiatus before Civil War ever began, and afterwards...what? MJ goes from being rising star to a fugitive with no problems? That marriage had failure written all over it. Why does Marvel over complicate things? Just take the road to rationality and have MJ get fed up with all the Bride of Spiderman shenanigans she goes through daily.

But wait...that would make sense, which totally go against the theme Marvel's been working with the past year or so.

I guess Marvel's gotta stick with the whole wacky, nonsensical plottwist for symmetry, but...eh. I don't know. I'd have rather see characters deal with their issues like real people.

All the stories about how strong the marriage is would get a different subtext if the couple divorces and the writers reveal that the marriage wasn't that strong, it just hadn't been tested enough.

The deal with the devil isn't the way I'd have done it, but I do believe erasing the marriage was Marvel's best move here.

[Mister Mets]

This proves my point. If this hadnt done this, people would still see that there was gas in the tank. The marraige didnt fail Marvel, Marvel failed the marraige. THEY gave up on it.

And making deals with the devil and having Spidey single with a cast of dead weights is stale, unreallistic, and cheesy.

The real ball and chain is Editorial narrow-mindedness. And it wont last. It's laughable enough this thread is more a reaction to the pro-marraige thread and the constant arguments the anti-marraige faction lose than anything that should have occured after OMD was published. This is only up because we've beaten them, they cant win an argument, so they have no choice but to wither and die in their own thread....

Spidey WILL have his true love back, and even then all fans will lap it up as always. People take sides. Simple as that.And then what?

There have been entertaining pro-marraige storylines.

There have been entertaining pro-marraige storylines.

There have been entertaining pro-marraige storylines.


One for the chalkboard Bart Simpson
There were more entertaining stories without the marriage in recent years.

That's one indication something was very wrong.

[ZT4]

And then what?

Daughter.

And you'll lap it up. People take sides, as I continue to reitterate. The "poster boys" for Marvel dont really think for themselves, they follow and attempt to endorse editorial opinion because it's the market's current stratagem.

And entertaining singles storylines? Only because US was around when the Spidey titles were bogged down by bad storylines involving a slut Gwen and the unmasking.

Marvel don't want change anymore because they can afford as many directions as possible, they are in a very diverse posistion. They have Spider-Girl around to cover their asses on the decision. THAT has inherited virtually all of the real canon give or take ten years.

This is what BND factions don't understand, or choose not to because it kills their arguments. They cant rub the marraige's dissolution in our faces because IT'S STILL THERE, and it's in a much more evolved manner than we were faced with presently.

You know what's even better? Peter became Spidey again during SG, and recently had one whole issue where he broke free from Carnage in classic Spidey "Everyone's depending on me" style. He's still the Spider-Man the fans remember, in the posistion Stan had wanted him to be in...and wow...he can still be Spidey if he wants to be.

[sugarmanandrobin]

All the stories about how strong the marriage is would get a different subtext if the couple divorces and the writers reveal that the marriage wasn't that strong, it just hadn't been tested enough.

The deal with the devil isn't the way I'd have done it, but I do believe erasing the marriage was Marvel's best move here.

If you by strong you mean co-dependent, then yes. MJ and Peter have had it rough. They may stay together, but that by no means denotes strength. And keep in mind the Mr. Stracynzki had MJ leave Pete for a little while there. So, it could crumble organically. And why Mephisto? When's the last time Mephisto made a deal that benign?

[ZT4]

JMS knew how he was going to bring back MJ though, and it fit her character pretty well. If she had decided to divorce Peter, she'd have remained his friend, which would have been satisfactory even to me, as that's why she turned down two of his proposals in the first place.

[Joe Franklin]

I prefer Spiderman to be single. He bacame a whipped puppy after he got hitched, and lost his cool attitude, and became all serious.

[Mister Mets]

And then what?

Daughter.And then what?

And you'll lap it up. People take sides, as I continue to reitterate. The "poster boys" for Marvel dont really think for themselves, they follow and attempt to endorse editorial opinion because it's the market's current stratagem.Absolutely agree here. Joe Quesada said the marriage was bad, therefore it's bad. I did no independent thinking to reach that conclusion, nor did anyone else posting in favor of the marriage. The moment Quesada says that the Spider-Man books need continued growth, we'll be parroting what he says and arguing that Spider-Man's children will be more entertaining characters.

And entertaining singles storylines? Only because US was around when the Spidey titles were bogged down by bad storylines involving a slut Gwen and the unmasking.

Marvel don't want change anymore because they can afford as many directions as possible, they are in a very diverse posistion. They have Spider-Girl around to cover their asses on the decision. THAT has inherited virtually all of the real canon give or take ten years.

This is what BND factions don't understand, or choose not to because it kills their arguments. They cant rub the marraige's dissolution in our faces because IT'S STILL THERE, and it's in a much more evolved manner than we were faced with presently.

You know what's even better? Peter became Spidey again during SG, and recently had one whole issue where he broke free from Carnage in classic Spidey "Everyone's depending on me" style. He's still the Spider-Man the fans remember, in the posistion Stan had wanted him to be in...and wow...he can still be Spidey if he wants to be.And he's a supporting character in a monthly.

The recent comics have had some of the best married Spider-Man stories ever (Millar's run, the Sensational Annual, Web of Romance.) But there were more great stories with the single Spider-Man, some in the period in which Mary Jane was believed dead/ had left Peter to go to California.

[spiderman_rj]

Spidey WILL have his true love back, and even then all fans will lap it up as always.


they will never bring gwen back dude..... :( , just like in the movie she was in HOM just as eye candy :mad:

[ZT4]

I prefer Spiderman to be single. He bacame a whipped puppy after he got hitched, and lost his cool attitude, and became all serious.

I dont know what comic you were reading, but he never lost his cool attitude until 1999, then got it back in 2002.

[Matt Linton]

Personally, I want Spider-Man comics to be fun, with occasional darkness, rather than dark, mopey stories with rare bits of fun. That seems to happen more often when Peter is single, or when MJ is out of the picture (the Jenkins/Buckingham run).

It seems like the only thing most writers can figure out to do with MJ is either have her moping at home while Spidey's out fighting bad guys, or have her in some sort of peril that Spidey has to save her from. Yes, that's the fault of the writers and not the marriage, but it's been the case under several writers since the marriage happened. And in the case of the marriage, I don't think the alternative is any better. If things are all happy and wonderful, then there's an important element of drama taken away from Spider-Man. He's got his happy ending.

When Spider-Man is single, there's a good balance of optimism, as Peter keeps striving for that happy ending, and conflict, as things don't always turn out well for him.

[ZT4]

And then what?

Son.

And then what?

Avengers leader

And then what?

Leads a new West Coast Avengers group comprising of Pirates, Chimps, and Ninjas

And it'll take him years, years, to do any of that.

Progress>Devolution.

And he's a supporting character in a monthly.

He was a supporting character in Ben's run, doesnt matter, he still acted more like Spidey than Spidey currently does. I'd say the Parkers have gained a larger scope lately with Ben Jr's addition too.

He can also easily be given a MC2 title to himself with a new leg and a new, relatable fanbase if the right marketing was there. MC2 is already getting new limited series.

The recent comics have had some of the best married Spider-Man stories ever (Millar's run, the Sensational Annual, Web of Romance.) But there were more great stories with the single Spider-Man, some in the period in which Mary Jane was believed dead/ had left Peter to go to California.

Nobody swallowed MJ was dead though, just "rested", so it was fine (unless the storylines were crap, which the majority of them were beyond Jenkins), but thanks entirely to Mackie, Peter had become so pathetic by that point, it stopped being interesting.

And both characters were written so unreallisticly at that point, only Jenkins "got" Peter.

[Joe Franklin]

Personally, I want Spider-Man comics to be fun, with occasional darkness, rather than dark, mopey stories with rare bits of fun. That seems to happen more often when Peter is single, or when MJ is out of the picture (the Jenkins/Buckingham run).

It seems like the only thing most writers can figure out to do with MJ is either have her moping at home while Spidey's out fighting bad guys, or have her in some sort of peril that Spidey has to save her from. Yes, that's the fault of the writers and not the marriage, but it's been the case under several writers since the marriage happened. And in the case of the marriage, I don't think the alternative is any better. If things are all happy and wonderful, then there's an important element of drama taken away from Spider-Man. He's got his happy ending.

When Spider-Man is single, there's a good balance of optimism, as Peter keeps striving for that happy ending, and conflict, as things don't always turn out well for him.

I agree 100%.:cool:

[Matt Linton]

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h238/BertoneBeatle/morestuff/osborn/loves.jpg

[Yoda]

I'm not a fan of OMD. But I think BND was the most fun Spidey's been in years. Brought me back to picking up the book.

I guess that just makes me a sheep following editorial though, you know I can't think for myself or whatever... God, some of these hysterical pro-marriage people make me embarrassed to be a comic fan. Although the few at my shop who were acting like Quesada kicked their dog and then bought BND were pretty entertaining. Those are the real sheep.

[Mister Mets]

Son.

And then what?

Avengers leader

And then what?

Leads a new West Coast Avengers group comprising of Pirates, Chimps, and Ninjas

And it'll take him years, years, to do any of that.

Progress>Devolution.And how old will he be at this point? How long could the comics present him as the father of two children too young to be superheroes? When it's time for him to retire, do you trust the writers and artists to come up with a more interesting and commercial replacement?

He was a supporting character in Ben's run, doesnt matter, he still acted more like Spidey than Spidey currently does. I'd say the Parkers have gained a larger scope lately with Ben Jr's addition too.

He can also easily be given a MC2 title to himself with a new leg and a new, relatable fanbase if the right marketing was there. MC2 is already getting new limited series.Given the low sales of Spider-Girl, I don't see tremendous interest in that series.

Nobody swallowed MJ was dead though, just "rested", so it was fine (unless the storylines were crap, which the majority of them were beyond Jenkins), but thanks entirely to Mackie, Peter had become so pathetic by that point, it stopped being interesting.

And both characters were written so unreallisticly at that point, only Jenkins "got" Peter.I think one problem for the marriage fans is that there's a ten+ year period when the only excellent Spider-Man creative runs were Mcfarlane/Micheline Amazing Spider-Man and Dematteis/ Buscema Spectacular Spider-Man (this dearth of classic material lasted until Jenkins took over Peter Parker Spider-Man).

[DeadXMan]

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h238/BertoneBeatle/morestuff/osborn/loves.jpg

Vary interesting on MJs commentary....

and it seems Pete prefers blonds after all.:D

[Matt Linton]

That's one of my biggest problems with the marriage. MJ's commentary is how her character was portrayed up to the point that it was decided to marry the characters off. Suddenly, she underwent a major personality change in order for it to make sense.

[spiderman_rj]

That's one of my biggest problems with the marriage. MJ's commentary is how her character was portrayed up to the point that it was decided to marry the characters off. Suddenly, she underwent a major personality change in order for it to make sense.


wich is the reason i never liked the marriage,mj has always been a air head retarded person,then oh no,it was just her hidding her problems......and dont get me started on the whole, i knew all the time you are spiderman retcon !!
she couldnt possible now,it was only made up for the marriage to work !!

[BlackToe]

This proves my point. If this hadnt done this, people would still see that there was gas in the tank. The marraige didnt fail Marvel, Marvel failed the marraige. THEY gave up on it.

And making deals with the devil and having Spidey single with a cast of dead weights is stale, unreallistic, and cheesy.

The real ball and chain is Editorial narrow-mindedness. And it wont last. It's laughable enough this thread is more a reaction to the pro-marraige thread and the constant arguments the anti-marraige faction lose than anything that should have occured after OMD was published. This is only up because we've beaten them, they cant win an argument, so they have no choice but to wither and die in their own thread....

Spidey WILL have his true love back, and even then all fans will lap it up as always. People take sides. Simple as that.

Marvel failed the marriage because nobody wanted it anyways and it only had finite stories. Hence the gas remark. All we got from the marriage stories for 20 years are smoking, stalker, Peter hitting MJ a couple times and MJ in trouble x amount of times with sap lines repeated at every arc. And you're telling me this is better and supposed to last?!? That aient Spider-man, thats dull and mundane.

MJ got stale and the marriage got boring, cheesy and unrealistic. It was a go nowhere scenario. It had to go for the future of Spider-man.

(And "This is only up because we've beaten them, they cant win an argument, so they have no choice but to wither and die in their own thread...."? Wow...somebodies taking this a little too serious.)

[BlackToe]

And how old will he be at this point? How long could the comics present him as the father of two children too young to be superheroes? When it's time for him to retire, do you trust the writers and artists to come up with a more interesting and commercial replacement?

Also, what alot of people dont realize is if Peter had one kid, he'd have to retire from webslinging altogether. Its completely unrealistic to play hero on call for free and raise a kid at the same time. Not to mention he has a responsibility to said child to raise him right AND afford for him. Peter is always poor because of his life as Spider-man. How the hell can he do both? Not to mention the times when he's being Spider-man for days or weeks at a time. He already treats MJ poorly.

Also, put him in this scenario; Peter is at a NY park alone with little Ben. He's watching him play in a sandbox. Suddenly a Mugger across the street takes a old lady (Or whoever, it doesnt really matter) into a alley to rob her with a gun or knife and he starts running with the money after a scuffle. What does Peter do?

[DeadXMan]

your right look at reed and sue they been married for 40+ years
yet I find their marriage more appealing the Pete's

why cause they been through it all in some form.

Infertility, child raising, finical, lose of a child, alien invasions, abuse, and even death itself.

[JamesOliva]

wich is the reason i never liked the marriage,mj has always been a air head retarded person,then oh no,it was just her hidding her problems......and dont get me started on the whole, i knew all the time you are spiderman retcon !!
she couldnt possible now,it was only made up for the marriage to work !!

Not entirely true. She "revealed" that she knew he was Spider-Man a good three years before the marriage. It actually added a different dimension to the books at the time. The fact that Peter had a friend that he could confide in. There is actually a pretty fun story from Amazing Annual 19 that relates to MJ's problem's dealing with this knowledge.

The reveal I think made the most sense from a character standpoint because it moved her away from being just a stereotypical "airhead" character and actually gave her some depth and motivation. If you don't allow a character to grow and change what's the point of the character. keep in mind all of this stuff happened way before the marriage was even conceived.

Lets be honest, what's been more of a "ball and chain" to Spider-Man over the past twenty years, the marriage itself or overexposure, lost of bad writing and an overuse of gimmick based storytelling. How many "bad" SPider-Man stories have been results of Marvel trying to get rid of the marriage (OMD, Clones, the entire Mackie run)?

[JamesOliva]

your right look at reed and sue they been married for 40+ years
yet I find their marriage more appealing the Pete's

why cause they been through it all in some form.

Infertility, child raising, finical, lose of a child, alien invasions, abuse, and even death itself.

You are completely correct. You can tell s ome really good stories using marriage as part of the character. For the most part this hasn't been the case Spider-Man.

[spiderman_rj]

Not entirely true. She "revealed" that she knew he was Spider-Man a good three years before the marriage. It actually added a different dimension to the books at the time. The fact that Peter had a friend that he could confide in. There is actually a pretty fun story from Amazing Annual 19 that relates to MJ's problem's dealing with this knowledge.

The reveal I think made the most sense from a character standpoint because it moved her away from being just a stereotypical "airhead" character and actually gave her some depth and motivation. If you don't allow a character to grow and change what's the point of the character. keep in mind all of this stuff happened way before the marriage was even conceived.

Lets be honest, what's been more of a "ball and chain" to Spider-Man over the past twenty years, the marriage itself or overexposure, lost of bad writing and an overuse of gimmick based storytelling. How many "bad" SPider-Man stories have been results of Marvel trying to get rid of the marriage (OMD, Clones, the entire Mackie run)?


NO SIR! i have read spiderman since the first book (okay not true,but i did read the first books,stans and then whoever was after him) and from that,there were a few stories that conflict the fact the she knew it all the time,i specially remember one,where she wonder WHO could it be beyond the mask,and that she wish she could live like spiderman,care free.....so she DIDNT KNOW !! PERIOD! they made her know i dont care how long before the marriage in order TO GET THERE,and yes,she become a more interesting character becouse of that,no doubt,but for me,and like others i assumed,this transgression was rather forced,specially since i already endured sweet gwen become a whining scary girl just so that mj could spot ,mj post marriage is nothing more then early gwen with family issues.

and yes,i know its no excuse for all the CRAPPY writing,but the marriage was stupid in first place,peter always running here and there, THAT IS HIS CHARACTER ! having him marry to someone,make this an absurd i mean, you just leave you wife in the couch waiting for you, or run her off becouse of a supervillain ? and dont bring the policeman,or fireman in RL into this,at least they are PAID to do so . and since she knew it all along,she cant complain,so all the issues where they fight becouse of this are actuallly irrelevant.
if peter should marry someone it should be someone on his line,like felicia or even spider woman,you know.thats why i had high hopes for ultimate peter with kitty,but bendis completely shoved this for mj being peter true love,ugh.

[spiderman_rj]

You are completely correct. You can tell s ome really good stories using marriage as part of the character. For the most part this hasn't been the case Spider-Man.

yah,but remember, the FF are a FAMILY,they were a family before! and sue is always or mostly with reed,they fight TOGUETHER,whereas mj stay home worried sick about peter,having peter dump her in a sweet picnic to catch a burglar,and for what ? all becouse of his RESPONSABILITY ! :rolleyes:

[Nefarius]

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h238/BertoneBeatle/morestuff/osborn/loves.jpg

Just watch this picture.MJ is the hottest of them all.And Pete screw it...for an old woman who was on the verge of death since issue one.

Peteard!!!

[Matt Linton]

Just watch this picture.MJ is the hottest of them all.And Pete screw it...for an old woman who was on the verge of death since issue one.

Peteard!!!

Yeah! What kind of idiot saves their mother when they could be banging a hot chick instead??!?!?!

[Nefarius]

Yeah! What kind of idiot saves their mother when they could be banging a hot chick instead??!?!?!

You see!!!Peter is a jerk.:p

I understand that Peter loves May as his true mother but saving her making deals with a DEMON!!!That's not heroic.Also,MJ was there to help him.She's not just a hot chick,she's there for Peter,in good and bad.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v623/askmegrimlock/amazingspider-manv253pharo08.jpg

[Matt Linton]

Honestly, I have no problem with MJ, and I really do get that folks have a problem with the "deal with the devil" thing, even though I don't agree. I just prefer the relationship Peter and MJ had prior to the marriage, and the personality MJ had, as well. She was a character with a lot of issues, who hid them behind the party girl exterior, and she was someone who could flit into Peter's life and either brighten things up, or complicate them. She was a fun character. Post-marriage she wasn't nearly as much fun, in my opinion.

[JamesOliva]

NO SIR! i have read spiderman since the first book (okay not true,but i did read the first books,stans and then whoever was after him) and from that,there were a few stories that conflict the fact the she knew it all the time,i specially remember one,where she wonder WHO could it be beyond the mask,and that she wish she could live like spiderman,care free.....so she DIDNT KNOW !! PERIOD! they made her know i dont care how long before the marriage in order TO GET THERE,and yes,she become a more interesting character becouse of that,no doubt,but for me,and like others i assumed,this transgression was rather forced,specially since i already endured sweet gwen become a whining scary girl just so that mj could spot ,mj post marriage is nothing more then early gwen with family issues.

and yes,i know its no excuse for all the CRAPPY writing,but the marriage was stupid in first place,peter always running here and there, THAT IS HIS CHARACTER ! having him marry to someone,make this an absurd i mean, you just leave you wife in the couch waiting for you, or run her off becouse of a supervillain ? and dont bring the policeman,or fireman in RL into this,at least they are PAID to do so . and since she knew it all along,she cant complain,so all the issues where they fight becouse of this are actuallly irrelevant.
if peter should marry someone it should be someone on his line,like felicia or even spider woman,you know.thats why i had high hopes for ultimate peter with kitty,but bendis completely shoved this for mj being peter true love,ugh.

You should take it easy on the ol' caps lock button, makes it look like you're shouting at someone for having a difference of opinion.

If they made her know in order to get there then they did a pretty lousy job setting it up, because that's one of Quesada major complaints was that the marriage came out of nowhere. I've read the issues too (that complete saga DVD is awesome) and that's a failry common thing in serialized storytelling is start a chacrter out in a fairly steretypical and over time grow them into a more well rounded character.

Police and Fireman do get paid, but do you really think it's the benefits that gets those people up every morning? Marriage is about compromise, any couple will tell you that. Every wife who's husband risks his lives everyday to provide a better world for people knows this. I think it's an age/preference thing. I grew up in the 80's and 90's with a married Peter and that's one of the things I've liked about the character. I'm not silly neough to believe my childhood was "raped" or anything like that, but to each their own.

[JamesOliva]

Honestly, I have no problem with MJ, and I really do get that folks have a problem with the "deal with the devil" thing, even though I don't agree. I just prefer the relationship Peter and MJ had prior to the marriage, and the personality MJ had, as well. She was a character with a lot of issues, who hid them behind the party girl exterior, and she was someone who could flit into Peter's life and either brighten things up, or complicate them. She was a fun character. Post-marriage she wasn't nearly as much fun, in my opinion.

Matt, I couldn't agree with you more. She was written ok early on but the way inwhich they spoke to each was a bit ridiculous ("oh man o' mine" and crap like that). JMS wrote the relationship better than just about anyone. But yeah, I wish they would've kept Mary Jane as a fun character who as you said could either brighten or complicate a situation. Unfotunately, she was written a lot of times as a whiner or bitch (especially in the reboot), which unforunately kinda sabotaged her character. When written well, I find it hard to argue against the marriage as a good thing. When written poorly anything can be seen as a detriment.

[DeadXMan]

am I the only one that relise that it was MJ that talked Pete into dealing with the devil?!!

[spiderman_rj]

You should take it easy on the ol' caps lock button, makes it look like you're shouting at someone for having a difference of opinion.

If they made her know in order to get there then they did a pretty lousy job setting it up, because that's one of Quesada major complaints was that the marriage came out of nowhere. I've read the issues too (that complete saga DVD is awesome) and that's a failry common thing in serialized storytelling is start a chacrter out in a fairly steretypical and over time grow them into a more well rounded character.

Police and Fireman do get paid, but do you really think it's the benefits that gets those people up every morning? Marriage is about compromise, any couple will tell you that. Every wife who's husband risks his lives everyday to provide a better world for people knows this. I think it's an age/preference thing. I grew up in the 80's and 90's with a married Peter and that's one of the things I've liked about the character. I'm not silly neough to believe my childhood was "raped" or anything like that, but to each their own.


fair enough,sorry about the caps. but about the compromise you tell,well look what happened ealier and later,first they were lovely marriage couple,then it stuck and they start make some drama over it,a stalker,how she couldnt cope with it (smoke,leaving a few times),thats not compromise.

i dont know if your dvd has stan and romita stories too,but there is one issue,i dont remember if it was green goblin or kraven,i think it was kraven that atacked harry,and i dont remember the exact line,but makes you think that if mj always knew,she must be a retarded then or suffer from severe amnesia from time to time,maybe post effects of drug use.

[spiderman_rj]

am I the only one that relise that it was MJ that talked Pete into dealing with the devil?!!

hmmm yes ? dont push it mate,peter whining bitchness post cw that forced mj into guiltyiness. she just acepted and took the final word.

[JamesOliva]

am I the only one that relise that it was MJ that talked Pete into dealing with the devil?!!

You are 100% correct.

I've read some posts here and there offering various takes on that subject. Some were a little more mean spirited than others. I can't rememebr who said it on rama, but it went soemthing to the effect of Mary Jane sacrifices the marriage because she knows Peter can't cope with the situation. His responce may have been a little more colorful than this though.

If we are to assume that this sacrifice was made to save a life, than Mary Jane becomes the hero of OMD and not the goat. She sacrifices her entire support system to make her husband's life better. Mary Jane comes from a messed up homelife. She never had a real family (excluding her Aunt Anna whgo she visited occasionally till college) until she and Peter were married and she learned what a real family was like. With that sacrifice, she has nothing emotionally. Now she's a screw-up Superhero who acts more like a "fangirl" (that's from the Spidey Bible), assuming she is Jackpot. Her fall is almost tragic.

Here's the interesting thing, if she remembers her past life, there's tons of potential fer her as a character, because of her brave and yet ultimately foolish sacrifice. However, if she doesn't (or ever) remember their past, Marvel may have killed the character, because according to that Spidey Bible she walks out on Peter to go California and she left him at the altar.

I have faith in Marvel, because like it or not, May Jane is Marvel's most popular female character especially with the mainstream. There's a great to be told when Marvel feel like picking up those pieces.

[DeadXMan]

hmmm yes ? dont push it mate,peter whining bitchness post cw that forced mj into guiltyiness. she just acepted and took the final word.




was there a time before CW when Pete wasn't whining?
yes but when see said yes first. Pete had a total WTF are you doing?!
face. and then MJ did he little monologue about how they'll find each other bull crap( remember she's an actress) in order to get Pete to agree.

She convinced him to deal with the devil.

she is responible for the anti-single side's so call sufuring.

hmm this all reminds me of a story I read in a book somewhere.

[JamesOliva]

fair enough,sorry about the caps. but about the compromise you tell,well look what happened ealier and later,first they were lovely marriage couple,then it stuck and they start make some drama over it,a stalker,how she couldnt cope with it (smoke,leaving a few times),thats not compromise.

i dont know if your dvd has stan and romita stories too,but there is one issue,i dont remember if it was green goblin or kraven,i think it was kraven that atacked harry,and i dont remember the exact line,but makes you think that if mj always knew,she must be a retarded then or suffer from severe amnesia from time to time,maybe post effects of drug use.

I've read the Romita/Lee stories (not all, still working on it). Lee never planned to have MJ know. That was DeFalco and Conway in Parrallel Lives retconned her to having always known which changes the aspect of those Romaita/Lee books. I personally would've preferred it if she had figured it out while they were dating in an issue (can't remeber which) where Spidey saves MJ from a similar situation to where Gwen died and he actually calles her "Gwendy." I always figured she must have been retarded not to figure it out then.

Like I said when I quoted Matt Linton, when the marriage was written well it was a good thing. When it was written poorly, it came off very phony and Mary Jane herself is often left looking kinda bitchy. That's ficition for you, good writing is fun, bad writing sucks.

[JamesOliva]

... then MJ did he little monologue about how they'll find each other bull crap( remember she's an actress) in order to get Pete to agree.

She convinced him to deal with the devil.

she is responible for the anti-single side's so call sufuring.

hmm this all reminds me of a story I read in a book somewhere.

Yeah, but let's not forget she's a bad actress!:D

I agree with you on her being responsible, just in the same way Johnny Blaze was responsible for his father's death. There could could be some great stories to come out of it, I just hope Marvel chooses to do it.

[DeadXMan]

I don't think May is gonna try to brake a world record's of longest Motorcycle jump for on last hurray before scumming to a now defunked cancer anytime soon.:p

and beside Pete didn't sell his soul

[JamesOliva]

I don't think May is gonna try to brake a world record's of longest Motorcycle jump for on last hurray before scumming to a now defunked cancer anytime soon.:p

and beside Pete didn't sell his soul

But Mary Jane may have.

[spiderman_rj]

in a way he did sold a soul,their pure inocent future to be daughter.

[Matt Linton]

in a way he did sold a soul,their pure inocent future to be daughter.

No. For one thing, she didn't exist yet. For another, Peter and MJ didn't even know about her until after they'd agreed. Mephisto was taunting them with the fact that she'd never exist now, to add to their pain. Saying they sold her soul, in anyway, implies that Mephisto has it now.

[Billy Parker]

I'm PRO SINGLE, just like every writer and artist of Spider-Man.

And BND has been great!

[Monty_Cristo]

i'm pro-single. now that the ball and chain is out i can relate to Peter. he's no longer that friend who never calls because his woman has him on a leash.

[mikekerr3]

i'm pro-single. now that the ball and chain is out i can relate to Peter. he's no longer that friend who never calls because his woman has him on a leash.

That leash is wonderful , at least for my last 25 years. Maybe you will get lucky and get one of you own.

[mikekerr3]

No. For one thing, she didn't exist yet. For another, Peter and MJ didn't even know about her until after they'd agreed. Mephisto was taunting them with the fact that she'd never exist now, to add to their pain. Saying they sold her soul, in anyway, implies that Mephisto has it now.

Selling your soul can also mean you took it out of the hands of god.

[Monty_Cristo]

That leash is wonderful , at least for my last 25 years. Maybe you will get lucky and get one of you own.

wait until everything starts sagging and sex is off the table. then comes the long race to see who can die first.

[Jake V]

Selling your soul can also mean you took it out of the hands of god.

So you believe that every sperm and every egg has a soul?

Or do they each have only half of one?

[Monty_Cristo]

So you believe that every sperm and every egg has a soul?

Or do they each have only half of one?

it's more of a gatekeeper/keymaster sort of thing. you need both for Zool.

[mikekerr3]

wait until everything starts sagging and sex is off the table. then comes the long race to see who can die first.


Inexperience speaks.


Sagging started happening years ago, sex doesn't have to be off the table at any age. My mom enjoys life at 84 and barring bad luck with modern medicine I will still enjoy life at 100.

[Joe Franklin]

Just watch this picture.MJ is the hottest of them all.And Pete screw it...for an old woman who was on the verge of death since issue one.

Peteard!!!

She's not the hottest, she's just drawn that way.:D

[mikekerr3]

So you believe that every sperm and every egg has a soul?

Or do they each have only half of one?

I was talking about the decision to end a marriage loved by God to suit Mephisto's purposes as a hurt to God. That was the reason he told them he was interested.

The potential kid was just sad, not in my opinion a moral issue.

[Taniwha]

I'm PRO SINGLE, just like every writer and artist of Spider-Man.

And BND has been great!

So what evidence do you have that every writer and artist of Spidey is pro-single, kiddo?

Also, I love the irony that you use a Spideys Love MJ icon. It's turdtastic.

[Matt Linton]

It's possible to be pro-Pete and MJ and not be pro-marriage.

[Taniwha]

It's possible to be pro-Pete and MJ and not be pro-marriage.

If you're emotionally stunted, afraid of commitment, and socially immature, sure, it is.

"ZOMG HOT CHIKS AND TEH SECKS BUT MARRIESAGES NOOOESZ"

And sorry, the OMD marriage-cide also ended MJ's dating spidey. Because if they just went back to dating, there'd be the continued pointing to how, you know, they could get married, etc, etc.

The new order of Spidey is to keep him from having any adult relationships with women, because the LardLord doesn't want his character tied down, just f*cking around.

[Matt Linton]

If you're emotionally stunted, afraid of commitment, and socially immature, sure, it is.

"ZOMG HOT CHIKS AND TEH SECKS BUT MARRIESAGES NOOOESZ"

And sorry, the OMD marriage-cide also ended MJ's dating spidey. Because if they just went back to dating, there'd be the continued pointing to how, you know, they could get married, etc, etc.

The new order of Spidey is to keep him from having any adult relationships with women, because the LardLord doesn't want his character tied down, just f*cking around.

Oh, good. Insults and generalizations. Way to make your point.

[the spot]

If you're emotionally stunted, afraid of commitment, and socially immature, sure, it is.



Hey, I knew I was thinking of putting you on ignore for some reason.

[Joe Franklin]

"ZOMG HOT CHIKS AND TEH SECKS BUT MARRIESAGES NOOOESZ"


You lost me with this one?:confused:

[Taniwha]

Oh, good. Insults and generalizations. Way to make your point.

Doesn't make it any less true. Those who felt that the marriage was 'holding back' Spidey are basically just afraid of Spidey being "grown up".

[Matt Linton]

Or you could read through any of the actual posts by people (like myself) who've given reasons for why they prefer a single Spider-Man. But if you want to stick to throwing out insults, feel free.

[Monty_Cristo]

Doesn't make it any less true. Those who felt that the marriage was 'holding back' Spidey are basically just afraid of Spidey being "grown up".

i'm afraid of "spidey" being boring. i think he was getting stale prior to Brand New Day. that The Other storyline makes me want to pluck my eyes out.

[DeadXMan]

yeah when the stingers pop out I thought they were implying that Logan knocked up Pete's mom back when they teamed up.

[Jake V]

Doesn't make it any less true. Those who felt that the marriage was 'holding back' Spidey are basically just afraid of Spidey being "grown up".

He shouldn't be "grown up". Just like Superman and Batman should never grow old aside from some out of continuity stories.

He's a character defined by youth, and should never be older than his mid 20's, unless you think it's a good idea that Spider-Man appeals to only a single generation of fans.

A married, middle aged Spider-Man makes the character completely useless to Marvel 10 years down the line.

[Rahul]

Funny thing about him being single is right now its not really the focus of the stories being told.

And the Parker Luck as defined by Johnny Storm is in full force here. Another chick digs him, and he doesn't know about it. Is that a single everyman trait?

[Matt Linton]

It's pretty typical for Parker. He had a crush on Liz Allen, then didn't notice when she had a crush on him. The same thing happened with Gwen and MJ, too.

[Rahul]

Typical, yes. But hardly everyman!

[Mister Mets]

He shouldn't be "grown up". Just like Superman and Batman should never grow old aside from some out of continuity stories.

He's a character defined by youth, and should never be older than his mid 20's, unless you think it's a good idea that Spider-Man appeals to only a single generation of fans.

A married, middle aged Spider-Man makes the character completely useless to Marvel 10 years down the line.I agree with what you say and I'll go one step further. Marvel moving in the direction of a married, middle aged Spider-Man will probably make the character useless in less than ten years.

Plus there are other considerations (IE- aging Spider-Man requires aging other Marvel characters.)

I won't support Spider-Man becoming older unless several conditions were met...

- Someone could convince me that there are decades of good and commercial stories available with Spider-Man as the married father of kids too young to be superheroes.
- Someone could convince me that there are new superheroes as good and commercial as Spider-Man, Daredevil, Captain America, Iron Man, the Hulk, The Fantastic Four and Wolverine.

or

-Someone could convince me that ending the current Marvel Universe is preferable to continuing it indefinitely.

[BlackToe]

Doesn't make it any less true. Those who felt that the marriage was 'holding back' Spidey are basically just afraid of Spidey being "grown up".

If by "grown up" you mean boring and stale, then yes....yes I am.

[Mister Mets]

If you're emotionally stunted, afraid of commitment, and socially immature, sure, it is.

"ZOMG HOT CHIKS AND TEH SECKS BUT MARRIESAGES NOOOESZ"

And sorry, the OMD marriage-cide also ended MJ's dating spidey. Because if they just went back to dating, there'd be the continued pointing to how, you know, they could get married, etc, etc.

The new order of Spidey is to keep him from having any adult relationships with women, because the LardLord doesn't want his character tied down, just f*cking around.
One aspect I've noticed in the pro-marriage crowd is that many of them are happily married and admit to having more of a social life since getting married. Their wives often helped them get out of their shells. As a result, they seem to expect the same to be true of Spider-Man, which may skew their perceptions of the storytelling possibilities of marriage VS bachelorhood.

[Matt Linton]

Typical, yes. But hardly everyman!

A lot of people tend to split and say, "Peter is the every man" or "Peter is a lovable loser". I think there's elements of both, but he's always been more than that, too. He's a science genius, and his girlfriend's are usually pretty good-looking. He's sort of "The Science Nerd You Wish You Could Be!"

[Mister Mets]

A lot of people tend to split and say, "Peter is the every man" or "Peter is a lovable loser". I think there's elements of both, but he's always been more than that, too. He's a science genius, and his girlfriend's are usually pretty good-looking. He's sort of "The Science Nerd You Wish You Could Be!"Plus, the good stuff in his life is balanced out by the very real possibility he'll be beaten to death some time soon.

[Monty_Cristo]

Funny thing about him being single is right now its not really the focus of the stories being told.

And the Parker Luck as defined by Johnny Storm is in full force here. Another chick digs him, and he doesn't know about it. Is that a single everyman trait?

are you talking about the girl that wants to date him to get to Harry's money?

[JamesOliva]

One aspect I've noticed in the pro-marriage crowd is that many of them are happily married and admit to having more of a social life since getting married. Their wives often helped them get out of their shells. As a result, they seem to expect the same to be true of Spider-Man, which may skew their perceptions of the storytelling possibilities of marriage VS bachelorhood.

I don't necessarily think that they expect the same from Spider-Man, I think that they just see a hole in the married=no social life argument. There is an infinite number of stories that could be told with or without a married Spider-Man, but there are a finite number of stories that Marvel is willing to tell with either/or.

[ZT4]

Plus, the good stuff in his life is balanced out by the very real possibility he'll be beaten to death some time soon.

..Didnt that happen when he was married...like...oohhh...twice (Marvel Knights and "The Other"?)

Originally Posted by Cyberman View Post
One aspect I've noticed in the pro-marriage crowd is that many of them are happily married and admit to having more of a social life since getting married. Their wives often helped them get out of their shells. As a result, they seem to expect the same to be true of Spider-Man, which may skew their perceptions of the storytelling possibilities of marriage VS bachelorhood.

How does something that's lasted as long as much of his singles life show a skewing of perception? The same could be argued of bachelors or those who feel "limited" by marraige (a social problem we still deal with). The problem with both sides is we're both right, and Spidey can go both ways.

[Brand]

One aspect I've noticed in the pro-marriage crowd is that many of them are happily married and admit to having more of a social life since getting married. Their wives often helped them get out of their shells. As a result, they seem to expect the same to be true of Spider-Man, which may skew their perceptions of the storytelling possibilities of marriage VS bachelorhood.

I suppose I'm what you would classify as "single" (unmarried and my current significant other and I haven't been together all that long), but I'm firmly in favor of a married Peter. In fact, I liked it when I first started reading the Spidey books--when I was about nine.

How does something that's lasted as long as much of his singles life show a skewing of perception? The same could be argued of bachelors or those who feel "limited" by marraige (a social problem we still deal with). The problem with both sides is we're both right, and Spidey can go both ways.

Excellent point. It could just as easily be argued that most of the pro-single crowd are themselves unmarried and, thus, don't appreciate how rich and rewarding it can be, or how dramatic.

[DaeJi]

One aspect I've noticed in the pro-marriage crowd is that many of them are happily married and admit to having more of a social life since getting married. Their wives often helped them get out of their shells. As a result, they seem to expect the same to be true of Spider-Man, which may skew their perceptions of the storytelling possibilities of marriage VS bachelorhood.

I'm not married nor am I planning on getting married anytime soon. I like a married Spidey, because that is where his story progressed too. And I'm a real big fan of story progression. With comics, especially superhero comics with no end in sight, progression is all but non-existent. But it happens. Being married didn't make Spidey dull or harder to relate too or limit stories. Writers who grew up with a single Spidey and wanted to write that is what dulled him. The character was fine; blame lays with the creators.

A married Spider-Man could be great. A single one could be too. A Spider-Man who made a deal with a being made up entirely of evil that resulted in 20 of continuity being aborted that will only cause unimaginable grief when it finally dawns on Marvel that they have to explain it all but can't because of the unbelievably poor planning that went into this is not great. Or good. Or even meh.

[DeadXMan]

I'm not married nor am I planning on getting married anytime soon. I like a married Spidey, because that is where his story progressed too. And I'm a real big fan of story progression. With comics, especially superhero comics with no end in sight, progression is all but non-existent. But it happens. Being married didn't make Spidey dull or harder to relate too or limit stories. Writers who grew up with a single Spidey and wanted to write that is what dulled him. The character was fine; blame lays with the creators.

A married Spider-Man could be great. A single one could be too. A Spider-Man who made a deal with a being made up entirely of evil that resulted in 20 of continuity being aborted that will only cause unimaginable grief when it finally dawns on Marvel that they have to explain it all but can't because of the unbelievably poor planning that went into this is not great. Or good. Or even meh.


I wouldn't say bad planning. they really are pushing issuse 600.
That's when I think it's all comining to a head. Till then enjoy this great sin that the woman brought onto us
:D

[doctorimpossible]

I'm one of those people who wasn't a huge marriage fan but wanted to see if BND was worth it after OMD. So far, it's just not been impressive and I figure if they were going to do something as controversial as OMD, they'd put a good arc right after it for purposes of beefing up the interest. It's not really so much that he's married or not anymore, it's that the stories seem rehashed and pulled from the old days. So I was/am pro single, I just wish they'd get to it and make a good story already. 549 just went ahead and solidified this as being bad.

[DeadXMan]

haven't read 549 yet....

[Mister Mets]

..Didnt that happen when he was married...like...oohhh...twice (Marvel Knights and "The Other"?)
I think it's something that works better when Peter's single, and doesn't have a loving and supportive wife to help clean his wounds (though I admit there have been some cool scenes with Mary Jane being stunned by the extent of Peter's injuries. The end of "Torment" comes to mind.)

How does something that's lasted as long as much of his singles life show a skewing of perception? The same could be argued of bachelors or those who feel "limited" by marriage (a social problem we still deal with). The problem with both sides is we're both right, and Spidey can go both ways.Peter Parker is the type of guy who would eventually get married, and probably to a gorgeous and loving woman given his good qualities.

However, I believe that it's preferable not to show the character as a married man if Marvel's going to have his adventures continue indefinitely (and I've yet to be persuaded of a viable alternative to the "no end in sight" approach.)

The "skewing of perception" refers to the fans whose social lives improved tremendously after they got married. Though I agree that it could also be used against the bachelors who think that marriage will limit their lives too much.

[ZT4]

The "skewing of perception" refers to the fans whose social lives improved tremendously after they got married.

I was a bachelor when the marraige was intact and allowing the characters to age properly during the 1990s, no problem with it, but yes, Spidey's single status can evoke just as many strong sentiments from not just bachelors, but also married individuals wanting to relive their previous lifestyle

I suppose in that context, comes the crux of what makes Ultimate Spider-Man rather detremental to an argument because he's going through so many ordeals in high school as opposed to what he could face beyond that. The more the market for the stages of Spider-Man's life is grasped better, the more we see things given a rather definitive age certificate. MAS, US, ASM, and SG all range towards various age groups that ASM once represented as a whole.

As I said, and as it's proven now, Spider-Man is better off fragmented than in a linear context. All we have left is the giant painting all the writers who are fans get to autograph around saying "thankyou". The painting is still there, but it's finished.

[DeadXMan]

I was a bachelor when the marraige was intact and allowing the characters to age properly during the 1990s, no problem with it, but yes, Spidey's single status can evoke just as many strong sentiments from not just bachelors, but also married individuals wanting to relive their previous lifestyle

I suppose in that context, comes the crux of what makes Ultimate Spider-Man rather detremental to an argument because he's going through so many ordeals in high school as opposed to what he could face beyond that. The more the market for the stages of Spider-Man's life is grasped better, the more we see things given a rather definitive age certificate. MAS, US, ASM, and SG all range towards various age groups that ASM once represented as a whole.

As I said, and as it's proven now, Spider-Man is better off fragmented than in a linear context. All we have left is the giant painting all the writers who are fans get to autograph around saying "thankyou". The painting is still there, but it's finished.

the same can be said for any comic book

[ZT4]

Certaingly when it becomes OBVIOUS, but not every one. And usually when they do, it takes years to be noticable.

Spider-Man has reached the years where it's now very noticable...and it doesnt even change with BND, that noticable fragmentation has even been encouraged.

[Mister Mets]

I was a bachelor when the marraige was intact and allowing the characters to age properly during the 1990s, no problem with it, but yes, Spidey's single status can evoke just as many strong sentiments from not just bachelors, but also married individuals wanting to relive their previous lifestyle

I suppose in that context, comes the crux of what makes Ultimate Spider-Man rather detremental to an argument because he's going through so many ordeals in high school as opposed to what he could face beyond that. The more the market for the stages of Spider-Man's life is grasped better, the more we see things given a rather definitive age certificate. MAS, US, ASM, and SG all range towards various age groups that ASM once represented as a whole.That last point is interesting, and somewhat true. But I don't see it as proof that ASM should come to an end.

As I said, and as it's proven now, Spider-Man is better off fragmented than in a linear context. All we have left is the giant painting all the writers who are fans get to autograph around saying "thankyou". The painting is still there, but it's finished.Except the Marvel Universe currently works in a linear context, something which has been part of its appeal, and one of the big differences between Marvel and DC (the majority of great Marvel comics have been part of a linear context, while the majority of great DC comics have been "fragmented."

For the linear context to continue indefinitely, the illusion of change approach has to be used and that works best with the marriage. If Marvel decides to go with the fragment approach, then they can devote a few years to maturing Spider-Man.

[ZT4]

That last point is interesting, and somewhat true. But I don't see it as proof that ASM should come to an end.

Not neccersarily ASM. As I stated, it, along with the other titles, is one half of a fragmented whole, a portion of Spidey's life in a modern world. They have the right idea, but are trying to make it fit linear, the problem is to keep it stand-alone and not intrude on anyone else. If you're wondering where the "real" Peter and MJ are, just have an issue out where it's revealed there permanently underground somewhere. Times like this I'm glad that Avengers comic had a "way out" for Peter, it gives the readers an ambigious ending. Even "Secret Invasion"'s preview images have Stark remembering Peter was the Iron Spider, yet Peter was supposed to have gone underground for six months at the beggining of the war.

That last point is interesting, and somewhat true. But I don't see it as proof that ASM should come to an end.

Except the Marvel Universe currently works in a linear context

That's what I meant though. It's impossible to keep Spidey linear, and that's been proven now. He had to fragmate to fit. This is stuff that happens to The Avengers, not Spidey. He's all but indistingushable from all the other wayward heroes who have been Avengers, fll out of favour, then eventually come back.

[Taniwha]

One aspect I've noticed in the pro-marriage crowd is that many of them are happily married and admit to having more of a social life since getting married. Their wives often helped them get out of their shells. As a result, they seem to expect the same to be true of Spider-Man, which may skew their perceptions of the storytelling possibilities of marriage VS bachelorhood.

I'm not married, actually. ;D

I just think that Spidey growing up into adulthood instead of being a basement-dwelling auntie's boy is more interesting than the perpetual adolescence you and yours espouse.

[Mister Mets]

I'm not married, actually. ;D

I just think that Spidey growing up into adulthood instead of being a basement-dwelling auntie's boy is more interesting than the perpetual adolescence you and yours espouse."many of them" does not necessarily refer to "all of them" or even "a majority of them"

I'm sure Peter will move out of his aunt's house soon enough. And he'll likely fall on some hard times, and have to move back in at some point.

Not neccersarily ASM. As I stated, it, along with the other titles, is one half of a fragmented whole, a portion of Spidey's life in a modern world. They have the right idea, but are trying to make it fit linear, the problem is to keep it stand-alone and not intrude on anyone else. If you're wondering where the "real" Peter and MJ are, just have an issue out where it's revealed there permanently underground somewhere. Times like this I'm glad that Avengers comic had a "way out" for Peter, it gives the readers an ambigious ending. Even "Secret Invasion"'s preview images have Stark remembering Peter was the Iron Spider, yet Peter was supposed to have gone underground for six months at the beginning of the war.I think there are tremendous benefits to having Amazing Spider-Man be set in the current Marvel Universe, and following the adventures of the "real" Spider-Man, including the idea that the book is almost guaranteed to last for another decade, which you can't say about the Ultimate line, Spider-Man Loves Mary Jane, a TV show/ movie adaptation, or the Marvel Adventures line.

That's what I meant though. It's impossible to keep Spidey linear, and that's been proven now. He had to fragmate to fit. This is stuff that happens to The Avengers, not Spidey. He's all but indistingushable from all the other wayward heroes who have been Avengers, fll out of favour, then eventually come back.As the Marvel Universe works in a linear context, Amazing Spider-Man should be made to fit that linear context. Which is possible with an illusion of change approach.

[Pro]

While i appreciate the effort going into this thread i really don't need a thread to discuss my bachelorship.

[ZT4]

I think there are tremendous benefits to having Amazing Spider-Man be set in the current Marvel Universe, and following the adventures of the "real" Spider-Man

I've considered the Ultimate Spidey the "real" one for years, as far as characters go. It's also arguably the most succesful Spidey title in years. I'm just of the opinion that if we're not talking generational succession, then we're talking interpretative succession. There is no excuse for stalling linear development with how much Marvel can afford to publish. The X-Men, Hulk, and Captain Amercia have never been better because there doing something in that regard.

There ARE tremendous benefits to having ASM in the 616 canon, but not in the state it's presently in. Right now it has to be it's own thing or it will continue to be betrayed by the very path it's trying to fit into.

As the Marvel Universe works in a linear context, Amazing Spider-Man should be made to fit that linear context. Which is possible with an illusion of change approach.

Illusion of change on this level should not bring people back to life. Yes, there's a good chance this whole thing is a pocket dimension/Mysterio plot, and yet another trick from the House of Swerves, but it's gotten to the point people are bored of these shock tactics, we're starting to see the sleight of hand. Illusion of change has led to mediocre crossovers in other titles, it's not just exclusive to Spider-Man.

[Leocomix]

It's funny that I see so many indications of denial and bargaining (after earlier manifestations of anger). BND is the 616 character.

[Mister Mets]

I've considered the Ultimate Spidey the "real" one for years, as far as characters go. It's also arguably the most succesful Spidey title in years. I'm just of the opinion that if we're not talking generational succession, then we're talking interpretative succession. There is no excuse for stalling linear development with how much Marvel can afford to publish. The X-Men, Hulk, and Captain Amercia have never been better because there doing something in that regard.

There ARE tremendous benefits to having ASM in the 616 canon, but not in the state it's presently in. Right now it has to be it's own thing or it will continue to be betrayed by the very path it's trying to fit into.



Illusion of change on this level should not bring people back to life. Yes, there's a good chance this whole thing is a pocket dimension/Mysterio plot, and yet another trick from the House of Swerves, but it's gotten to the point people are bored of these shock tactics, we're starting to see the sleight of hand. Illusion of change has led to mediocre crossovers in other titles, it's not just exclusive to Spider-Man.You bring up some good points, but I think it will ultimately be a bad idea to have the Marvel Universe continue in a linear fashion without its best and most popular character playing a notable role.

I also don't see a link between the illusion of change and mediocre crossovers.

[BlackToe]

It's funny that I see so many indications of denial and bargaining (after earlier manifestations of anger). BND is the 616 character.

Thats so true. Now all I hear is "It has to be Mysterio! If it was I'd buy it again and be a Mysterio fan for life!" or "Spider-mans a Skrull. He has to be. If he was a Skrull it'd make so much sense."

[ZT4]

...What's wrong with speculation? Marvel are meant to be an unpredictable place...why should it be labled "denial" and "bargaining"? Sounds a tad immature and single-minded.

Splintered decisions create ripples. This isnt 616, it's a ripple IN 616. Same things have happened to Hawkman and The Legion so many times theyve lost their investment.

It's actually a good comic story to tell one day...and isnt that what you constantly preach BND should be about?

[Brian M.]

While i appreciate the effort going into this thread i really don't need a thread to discuss my bachelorship.

Comeback to X-Cres. It's safe there.

[Sonicjuce]

As the Marvel Universe works in a linear context, Amazing Spider-Man should be made to fit that linear context. Which is possible with an illusion of change approach.

You and your "Illusion of Change" approach....

All your "Illusions of Change" could have been done with a marriad Spider-Man (minus the dating... which could have been done in other ways (women showing interest in marraid man). I think that is always the problem with your arguments.

[Matt Linton]

The problem with saying you could swap Peter dating women for women being interested in a married Peter is that in the second case, we KNOW what's going to happen. Peter's going to make it clear that he loves his wife and isn't interested.

[ZT4]

..We know what's going to happen on EITHER side.

Peter dates girl, coustumed life screws it up, goes back to MJ for a few years, breaks up, lather rince, repeat.

[Mister Mets]

You and your "Illusion of Change" approach....

All your "Illusions of Change" could have been done with a marriad Spider-Man (minus the dating... which could have been done in other ways (women showing interest in marraid man). I think that is always the problem with your arguments.The problem is that with a married Spider-Man, the reader usually knows that at the end of the story, Peter Parker will have a loving, beautiful and supportive woman to go home to. There can be exceptions (Mary Jane goes missing, Mary Jane is sick, Peter must go on lengthy covert missions without saying a word to his wife) but it'll be difficult to feature those without the reader realizing you're complicating the marriage for the sixteenth time.

With a single Spider-Man, the reader is aware that the status quo can change. By the end of the next issue, Peter's girlfriend may dump him or he may start seeing someone else. And the writer is aware that any major change can be reversed, which is probably how it should be.

That's the big reason the illusion of change works better with a single Spider-Man.

[ZT4]

Peter must go on lengthy covert missions without saying a word to his wife)

I'd pay money for that. Sans the "not telling MJ". Prior to this bollocks she was carving friendships with Logan and Cap. The marraige wouldnt be complicated anymore because she had people who had experiances and lives to relate to.

[Matt Linton]

..We know what's going to happen on EITHER side.

Peter dates girl, coustumed life screws it up, goes back to MJ for a few years, breaks up, lather rince, repeat.

But all of those things can be handled in very different ways. How many different ways could Peter say, "Sorry, I'm married."?

[ZT4]

But all of those things can be handled in very different ways

But we know the outcome, so it's BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOORIIIIINNNNNGGG

[Matt Linton]

Dude, we know the outcome of 99% of the ongoing superhero comics out there. Good guy beats bad guy. Romantic comedy? They get together. Detective story? The case gets solved. It's how you tell the story that matters.

[Mister Mets]

I'd pay money for that. Sans the "not telling MJ". Prior to this bollocks she was carving friendships with Logan and Cap. The marraige wouldnt be complicated anymore because she had people who had experiances and lives to relate to.If the marriage has no complications, the reader will always be convinced that Peter Parker will have a loving, supportive and beautiful wife to go home to, at the end of the issue, at the end of the arc and at the end of the year.

That makes private subplots seem totally insignificant.

[Mister Mets]

But we know the outcome, so it's BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOORIIIIINNNNNGGG
That's because you know how the sausage is made. It's the equivalent of blasting movies for following a three act structure once you understand how that is done.

But given that there were readers who speculated that One More Day would end with Peter being reunited with Baby May or that Ultimate Peter Parker would stay with Kitty Pryde forever, I doubt readers will always "know the outcome,"

Incidentally, you seem to believe that Amazing Spider-Man should come to an end, which indicates to me that pleasing readers like you is not in Marvel's best interests.

[ZT4]

If the marriage has no complications, the reader will always be convinced that Peter Parker will have a loving, supportive and beautiful wife to go home to.

Complications like MJ being a frequent smoker? Complications like MJ and Peter living with an insane Harry and severing ties with Liz? Complications like Peter in jail and a pregnant wife left to depend on his clone, complications like Venom, complications like losing their baby...

There's been more than a few fresh scenarios for the marraige, and more exist. But even if there were no complications, Spider-Man isnt about the marraige, it's about kicking ass as a hero first and a guy with a stable social life who can survive every hardship. The instant you start telling readers you're a deadbeat for life so long as you wear spandex, or you can fall into tempetation with Felicia, the instant theyll leave.

And what's WRONG with knowing MJ will always support him? If anything, Spidey should continue to reflect real life, and display fresh scenarios for making marraige, family, and raising a child work. That's who he is. And I'm sorry you refuse to see that can be viable so long as the risk isnt taken.

[Mister Mets]

Complications like MJ being a frequent smoker? Complications like MJ and Peter living with an insane Harry and severing ties with Liz? Complications like Peter in jail and a pregnant wife left to depend on his clone, complications like Venom, complications like losing their baby...

There's been more than a few fresh scenarios for the marraige, and more exist. But even if there were no complications, Spider-Man isnt about the marraige, it's about kicking ass as a hero first and a guy with a stable social life who can survive every hardship. The instant you start telling readers you're a deadbeat for life so long as you wear spandex, or you can fall into tempetation with Felicia, the instant theyll leave.

And what's WRONG with knowing MJ will always support him? If anything, Spidey should continue to reflect real life, and display fresh scenarios for making marraige, family, and raising a child work. That's who he is. And I'm sorry you refuse to see that can be viable so long as the risk isnt taken. A serial drama just isn't as interesting when the protagonist is in a stable position. You still have the action sequences, but you lose the private subplots that were a core part of Spider-Man's appeal since the very beginning. If the protagonist is a "guy with a stable social life who can survive every hardship" you lose what made Peter Parker interesting in the first place (and a core part of Marvel's appeal.)

[Brand]

A serial drama just isn't as interesting when the protagonist is in a stable position. You still have the action sequences, but you lose the private subplots that were a core part of Spider-Man's appeal since the very beginning. If the protagonist is a "guy with a stable social life who can survive every hardship" you lose what made Peter Parker interesting in the first place (and a core part of Marvel's appeal.)

Being married to MJ actually provides a lot of story opportunities for a decent writer who wants to take advantage of them. Her coworkers provide a limitless supply of supporting characters to introduce, her career/experience are a rich source of plot points, and her interactions with other superheroes are an excellent boon as well. Also, the occasional tension in the marriage (it shouldn't be frequent, but every now and then) reminds people what's at risk. Similarly, when MJ is put in danger it ups the stakes that much more.

Now all that (and more) has been traded so that Peter can date. Not a great deal, in my opinion.

[Leocomix]

Being married to MJ actually provides a lot of story opportunities for a decent writer who wants to take advantage of them. Her coworkers provide a limitless supply of supporting characters to introduce, her career/experience are a rich source of plot points, and her interactions with other superheroes are an excellent boon as well. Also, the occasional tension in the marriage (it shouldn't be frequent, but every now and then) reminds people what's at risk. Similarly, when MJ is put in danger it ups the stakes that much more.

Now all that (and more) has been traded so that Peter can date. Not a great deal, in my opinion.

But JMS already did that. There's little blood left in the marriage stories. This had started to be boring a long time ago. If you consider how fun the title is every time pete is single it's no contest.

[Brand]

But JMS already did that. There's little blood left in the marriage stories. This had started to be boring a long time ago. If you consider how fun the title is every time pete is single it's no contest.

:eek:

The potential of the marriage has barely been scratched. The biggest reason that things were so "boring" the past few years was that the writers were being FORCED to set up JQ's OMD/BND. JMS literally had to write the character into a corner so that Peter could be "fixed." If the writers hadn't had all those tie-ins and crossovers weighing them down, I expect we would have seen some truly great stories. As it is, we still got some nice gems here and there.

Honestly, I'll take Aguirre-Sacasa writing a married Spidey over BND every single time.

[mikekerr3]

Dude, we know the outcome of 99% of the ongoing superhero comics out there. Good guy beats bad guy. Romantic comedy? They get together. Detective story? The case gets solved. It's how you tell the story that matters.

How about this as a loser, they guy never gets the girl, may seem to but its always temporary.

There will never be a happy peter he will all ways be a guy who just lost a girl or is about to, that is what the EICs policy means. Got girl , lost girl, repeated ad infinitum.

[ZT4]

How about this as a loser, they guy never gets the girl, may seem to but its always temporary.

There will never be a happy peter he will all ways be a guy who just lost a girl or is about to, that is what the EICs policy means. Got girl , lost girl, repeated ad infinitum.

It's very much the same setup for the Sonic comics in Archie. I'd have said the character Archie itself (since that's a major influence on the early days of the character), but when the company broke up Sonic and Sally, they appeased fans with a year long back-up strip called "Mobius: Twenty-Five Years" later, with Sonic married to Sally in a "plausible future" and with children. It's a good time-travel/paraodx story in itself, and it became a cult favourate...also one of the few Sonic graphic novels released from the company.

Marvel have Spider-Girl, which thankfully runs significantly longer.

Spidey The Hedgehog. Unbeleivable.

[Mister Mets]

Being married to MJ actually provides a lot of story opportunities for a decent writer who wants to take advantage of them. Her coworkers provide a limitless supply of supporting characters to introduce, her career/experience are a rich source of plot points, and her interactions with other superheroes are an excellent boon as well. Also, the occasional tension in the marriage (it shouldn't be frequent, but every now and then) reminds people what's at risk. Similarly, when MJ is put in danger it ups the stakes that much more.

Now all that (and more) has been traded so that Peter can date. Not a great deal, in my opinion.

Mary Jane's coworkers/ family/ friends have been underutilized in the series, but there's a real danger in thinking it's okay to give the Parkers a stable home life and a larger more diverse supporting cast. As Peter Parker is the primary protagonist of Amazing Spider-Man, he should always have the most interesting private life. Every problem Peter and Mary Jane overcome makes their marriage seem stronger and far less likely to crumble because of the next time there's some tension in the marriage.

[Mister Mets]

How about this as a loser, they guy never gets the girl, may seem to but its always temporary.

There will never be a happy peter he will all ways be a guy who just lost a girl or is about to, that is what the EICs policy means. Got girl , lost girl, repeated ad infinitum.

He will get the girl. Just not permanently. Because otherwise you get to the end of the story (guy and girl happy forever.)

[ZT4]

Mary Jane's coworkers/ family/ friends have been underutilized in the series, but there's a real danger in thinking it's okay to give the Parkers a stable home life and a larger more diverse supporting cast. As Peter Parker is the primary protagonist of Amazing Spider-Man, he should always have the most interesting private life. Every problem Peter and Mary Jane overcome makes their marriage seem stronger and far less likely to crumble because of the next time there's some tension in the marriage.

Who cares about tension in the marraige? Nobody. It wasnt in the way when the best of the 1990s stuff pre, mid, or post Clone Saga occured. You preach constantly that it's about Spider-Man, but marraige is part of his life, his cast is part of what makes him tick. Take all that away, make it impossible to sustain and build bridges, which is what he learned to do, and you've changed his entire mucking character.

He will get the girl. Just not permanently. Because otherwise you get to the end of the story

No you bloodly dont. You have a fairly shallow view of what a story needs to do to "end". He gets the girl, they survive the hardships, he gets a baby, he becomes a leader..and who knows what else? More than you or I can fathom, but there will always be more.

But you wont beleive that until the next editor tells you what to think.

So, after all this time, my grand ephiphany has finally come...none of you can argue progress isnt beneficial, you just argue stagnation and nostaligia is profitiable enough to stay for as long as it sells.

This doesnt sell after a while.

[StoneGold]

I'd have said the character Archie itself (since that's a major influence on the early days of the character), but when the company broke up Sonic and Sally, they appeased fans with a year long back-up strip called "Mobius: Twenty-Five Years" later, with Sonic married to Sally in a "plausible future" and with children. It's a good time-travel/paraodx story in itself, and it became a cult favourate...also one of the few Sonic graphic novels released from the company.

So you're a furry then. That explains a lot.

[Mister Mets]

Who cares about tension in the marraige? Nobody. It wasnt in the way when the best of the 1990s stuff pre, mid, or post Clone Saga occured. You preach constantly that it's about Spider-Man, but marraige is part of his life, his cast is part of what makes him tick. Take all that away, make it impossible to sustain and build bridges, which is what he learned to do, and you've changed his entire mucking character.Aside from untold tales, JM Dematteis's Spectacular Spider-Man and occassional standalone one-shots/ storylines, what was the best of the 90s? It was a fairly pitiful decade as far as the Spider-Man comics were concerned.

Peter's failure to sustain and build bridges was part of his character from Amazing Spider-Man #123 to 289.

No you bloodly dont. You have a fairly shallow view of what a story needs to do to "end." He gets the girl, they survive the hardships, he gets a baby, he becomes a leader..and who knows what else? More than you or I can fathom, but there will always be more.

But you wont beleive that until the next editor tells you what to think.

So, after all this time, my grand ephiphany has finally come...none of you can argue progress isnt beneficial, you just argue stagnation and nostaligia is profitiable enough to stay for as long as it sells.

This doesnt sell after a while.The problem with Peter being able to progress as a character (become a father and leader) is that it has an impact on the rest of the Marvel Universe (as everyone in the MU will get one year older for every year Peter's baby ages) and the way it brings closer Peter's death or retirement or the end of his adventures in the Marvel Universe. Those options are only viable if Marvel has new characters as commercial and compelling as Spider-Man or an alternative to the Marvel Universe.

Stagnation was actually a strategy that worked for DC for decades (though I prefer Marvel's "illusion of change.") Eventually you lose readers with either strategy as they realize they'll never see the third acts of these characters, but the hope is that there will be enough new readers to replace them.

[Brand]

Mary Jane's coworkers/ family/ friends have been underutilized in the series, but there's a real danger in thinking it's okay to give the Parkers a stable home life and a larger more diverse supporting cast. As Peter Parker is the primary protagonist of Amazing Spider-Man, he should always have the most interesting private life. Every problem Peter and Mary Jane overcome makes their marriage seem stronger and far less likely to crumble because of the next time there's some tension in the marriage.

For one thing, I think Peter's home life SHOULD be relatively stable. That makes every time something DOES come along to threaten it even more important. What's there to worry about when you have nothing to lose?

As for MJ's coworkers/family/friends, I wasn't suggesting they be kept separate from Peter. They could easily (and should) be brought in and become part of his private life as well, for the most part. MJ's family should definitely have been made a part of the Parkers' lives, and we could have easily seen some of her coworkers become the couple's friends or even need Spidey's help. There are plenty of story ideas out there.

[BlackToe]

:eek:

The potential of the marriage has barely been scratched. The biggest reason that things were so "boring" the past few years was that the writers were being FORCED to set up JQ's OMD/BND. JMS literally had to write the character into a corner so that Peter could be "fixed." If the writers hadn't had all those tie-ins and crossovers weighing them down, I expect we would have seen some truly great stories. As it is, we still got some nice gems here and there.

Honestly, I'll take Aguirre-Sacasa writing a married Spidey over BND every single time.

Forced? I doubt it. There are alot of writers and Marvel staffers who also feel that a married Spider-man is wrong. We all knew for years. And even back then when the marriage was forced. JQ is just very vocal about it.

[Matt Linton]

How about this as a loser, they guy never gets the girl, may seem to but its always temporary.

There will never be a happy peter he will all ways be a guy who just lost a girl or is about to, that is what the EICs policy means. Got girl , lost girl, repeated ad infinitum.

Not unlike most folks who aren't married. And considering the divorce statistics, close to half the married couples out there are about to split up.

[Brand]

Forced? I doubt it. There are alot of writers and Marvel staffers who also feel that a married Spider-man is wrong. We all knew for years. And even back then when the marriage was forced. JQ is just very vocal about it.

Um, did you read any of those interviews that came out after OMD? They started this a few years ago, and the writers have been dealing with tie-ins and crossovers to set OMD up since then. CW had May getting shot (although CW wasn't completely about getting rid of the Spider-Marriage, it was a big part of the whole deal since OMD couldn't have happened without it). BiB had Peter running around, depressed because May had been shot. These crossovers limited the Spidey writers--they didn't have the ability to just tell stories like the writers of BND have now.

Also, there just as many writers who think the marriage is a good thing or at least not pure evil, like JQ sees it. I remember reading a group interview one time and it was pretty much evenly split. JQ was firmly against it while Bendis was just as solidly in favor of the marriage. The others fell somewhere in between, often saying things such as it stimulated a writer and didn't let him take the lazy road with a story if he wanted it to be good, though I'd hope no writer ever did that.

[ZT4]

So you're a furry then. That explains a lot.

No I'm not, but it's nice to know that people who read and enjoy certain comics they use as viable examples cant seem to express so without being labled. Keep proving me right. :rolleyes:

[ZT4]

Forced? I doubt it. There are alot of writers and Marvel staffers who also feel that a married Spider-man is wrong. We all knew for years. And even back then when the marriage was forced. JQ is just very vocal about it.

And not even the "marraige was rushed" excuse counts in evidence of history either. Any story that has MJ turn down Peter twice to assert her indepedence is definatley not rushed. By comic standards, and for new readers (the REAL "new readers" that stumble on "Essential" or something), the chase probably would be simply natural. The old guard look like old farts as a result of this, and their word shouldnt be taken as gospel unless it was relevant to the integrity of a character. Spidey's integrity is multi-faceted, so noone is wrong, and noone has any right to say anything is this or that. The real judges, the real critics, are the fans.

[Will.S]

Forced? I doubt it. There are alot of writers and Marvel staffers who also feel that a married Spider-man is wrong. We all knew for years. And even back then when the marriage was forced. JQ is just very vocal about it.While I understood Quesada's viewpoint of the marriage limiting the romantic interest stories and even agreed to some extent, I never had the amount of venom he had for the marriage since I pretty much grew up reading it and it was such a long established thing for them. Even if it was deemed as a rushed mistake, Marvel rolled with it and didn't come up with contrived ways to end it.

It bothered him SO much that he used a huge mystic/cosmic solution to dissolve something so mundane (and by this definition I mean common and ordinary) as a marriage where it really wasn't as big of a deal to other writers as he made it out to be. Brand already gave the example of Bendis who I'm sure isn't too crazy about OMD but rolls with it nonetheless which is a nice gesture on his behalf.

Now I'm not saying that a single Peter won't work either, I'm not blind to that at all. It does open up story possibilities with regards to his love life and I can't imagine Quesada ever going back on that but that can only take you so far with certain stories. It's an aspect of Spider-Man but it doesn't define him as much as the other aspects of the character do. The dissolution of the marriage really did NOT require so much built up gymnastics and easy way outs to deal with when they had perfectly good ways to do it without insulting the reader to get him single again.

That's the main reason why a single Peter in Brand New Day irks me, it's feels forced from editorial right down to Dan Slott's writing (which I usually enjoy).

[Mister Mets]

For one thing, I think Peter's home life SHOULD be relatively stable. That makes every time something DOES come along to threaten it even more important. What's there to worry about when you have nothing to lose?

As for MJ's coworkers/family/friends, I wasn't suggesting they be kept separate from Peter. They could easily (and should) be brought in and become part of his private life as well, for the most part. MJ's family should definitely have been made a part of the Parkers' lives, and we could have easily seen some of her coworkers become the couple's friends or even need Spidey's help. There are plenty of story ideas out there.Conversely if Peter doesn't have a stable home life, there's no need for writers to come up with outrageous situations to shake it up every now and then (as those situations will add up.)

There's story ideas with Peter interacting with Mary Jane's supporting cast, but it's still important to remember that this isn't an ensemble and that Peter Parker should always be the most important character.

[Mister Mets]

And not even the "marraige was rushed" excuse counts in evidence of history either. Any story that has MJ turn down Peter twice to assert her indepedence is definatley not rushed. By comic standards, and for new readers (the REAL "new readers" that stumble on "Essential" or something), the chase probably would be simply natural. The old guard look like old farts as a result of this, and their word shouldnt be taken as gospel unless it was relevant to the integrity of a character. Spidey's integrity is multi-faceted, so noone is wrong, and noone has any right to say anything is this or that. The real judges, the real critics, are the fans.
Peter proposed at the end of Amazing 290. MJ said yes at the end of 292. They announced their engagement to Aunt May and Aunt Anna in the same issue in which they got married.

It was rushed and compares with "One More Day" in many regards.

[Matt Linton]

Even if it was deemed as a rushed mistake, Marvel rolled with it and didn't come up with contrived ways to end it.

They've tried to end it a few times before. First, in the Clone Saga, which was at least as contrived as One More Day ("the Spider-Man you've been reading about for twenty years was actually a clone" - "oh noes, they've raped my childhood!") and MJ's plane blowing up in the Mackie/Byrne Spider-Man relaunch. In both cases it didn't stick, though I'd say it had more to do with the execution and follow-up than the idea of ending the marriage.

[Brand]

Here is the interview to which I referred earlier:

http://www.newsarama.com/JoeFridays/JoeFridays52.html

The part about the Spider-Marriage is a ways down. Basically, Bendis says that if they get rid of the marriage it had better be to do the best run of Spidey stories ever. Whedon talks about loving to read about a well-written marriage and the challenge of doing it, though he questions if Peter should be married or not. JMS talks about writing the marriage well but basically says that he'll do what the company says. Loeb and JQ are more vehement in their opinions and are more firmly set against Peter being married. Oh, and there's talk of Spider-Man: Chlamydia (coming soon!).

[Will.S]

They've tried to end it a few times before. First, in the Clone Saga, which was at least as contrived as One More Day ("the Spider-Man you've been reading about for twenty years was actually a clone" - "oh noes, they've raped my childhood!") and MJ's plane blowing up in the Mackie/Byrne Spider-Man relaunch. In both cases it didn't stick, though I'd say it had more to do with the execution and follow-up than the idea of ending the marriage.
Looking back at those yeah they actually are pretty damn contrived (the MJ plane thing less so). But even then for some reason I didn't feel as bad about them as I do with the OMD solution but perhaps that's because I was younger at the time and I didn't particularly follow the clone saga until Ben Reilly wore the red costume.

Really what it comes down to is that Quesada couldn't come up with a good way to dissolve the marriage because there was no reason to nor was there any indication that MJ or Peter didn't love each other as much as they did. So it results in a cheap and artificial way out that is somehow suppose to please both fans of the Peter/MJ relationship and fans of a single Peter Parker as well but you can't without alienating one of those groups and making one of them feel suckered one way or another.

It's impossible to make their marriage dissolution look natural, especially not without prior build up. Hell I might even tolerate MJ being as a sleeper skrull until SI hits because at least that's able to make sense in context. His newfound single status look all too awkward regardless of how good it is towards future stories and fans jumping onto BND without prior knowledge of anything before that will keep think that MJ and Pete never made the deep commitment (which they had).

From what I've seen, fans who still follow the books and can look past OMD still find that their marriage dissolution was still poorly handled despite the new status quo as well.

[ZT4]

Looking back at those yeah they actually are pretty damn contrived (the MJ plane thing less so). But even then for some reason I didn't feel as bad about them as I do with the OMD solution but perhaps that's because I was younger at the time and I didn't particularly follow the clone saga until Ben Reilly wore the red costume.

I was as incensed with Mackie making the couple look frustrated with each other and then killing her off. It all felt desperate and forced. Nevermind that Marvel quality was dropping all over the shop.

The Clone Saga never pissed me off. I didnt swallow Ben as the real Spidey, nor did anyone with a lick of common sense. I think fan reaction DID kill a good thing though, because I enjoyed Ben on a Kyle Rayner level, and Peter's powers eventually returned, making a fresh brotherly spider-team with one on reserve and a baby to extend Ben to Unclehood. The status quoe had never been as unpredictable or progressive.

[Matt Linton]

Looking back at those yeah they actually are pretty damn contrived (the MJ plane thing less so). But even then for some reason I didn't feel as bad about them as I do with the OMD solution but perhaps that's because I was younger at the time and I didn't particularly follow the clone saga until Ben Reilly wore the red costume.

Really what it comes down to is that Quesada couldn't come up with a good way to dissolve the marriage because there was no reason to nor was there any indication that MJ or Peter didn't love each other as much as they did. So it results in a cheap and artificial way out that is somehow suppose to please both fans of the Peter/MJ relationship and fans of a single Peter Parker as well but you can't without alienating one of those groups and making one of them feel suckered one way or another.

It's impossible to make their marriage dissolution look natural, especially not without prior build up. Hell I might even tolerate MJ bein