Fantastic Four #553 *spoilers*

[bulbasteve]

Here we are at the end of McDuffie's run at the wrap of the big plan #101 utopia future-doom stuff! Let's see how it ends! Oh man time travel...this is gunna be tough...

I'm sure all us fanboys know about how going back in time makes alternate timelines, here dubbed "Kangs third law of time travel" or the "conservation of causality".

Let's look at the future! Thing can turn back and forth between a human form, Torch burns white hot and are all keep getting stronger with age.

They pretty much spend the issue arguing over if they should trust Doom or Reed (with Sue(s) making a very impashioned defense of Reed) and generally beating each other up at various points...but gasp...

Turns out Kang is a dirty liar and every change in time doesn't make an alternate timeline. If, as they say in this issue, Lincoln was not assassinated he would probably die slipping in a bathtub. History will tend to fix itself. Doom naturally was trying to change history (yeah...big shock!)

The FF are trying to preserve the timeline (hence why they are fighting the FF and stuff....cause they already had that happen in the past!).

Naturally it turns out that Reed in fact did create a true paradise and that Doom was simply jealous that Reed was the savior of humanity and not him. In the end the solution they decide/decided was to send the Future Doom into the "What if Hulk killed all the superheroes during WWH" world and see if Doom would actually be a savior and not a monster.

The issue ends on a pretty touching note with the future FF hinting at what is to come for the them and ends with Sue asking asking about about his big plan:

"With all of your plans to protect us from aramageddon and create a better future, you said you couldn't predict the actions of individuals, only groups".

"Right. Below a certain threashold, the acts of individuals, no matter how grand, cancel out. It's the conservation of history".

"So what's the the number? How few people do you need before you can change the world"

"Four"


Aaaaaaawwww!!!

[DaeJi]

I'm not sure I like that Kang's third law of time travel is incorrect. Why would he lie about that? Hmmm... I dunno about that, I'm thinking Kang's law should stick.

[bulbasteve]

I think it works...I mean why should the fact that you own a time machine mean you literally make a new universe. But the universe trying to correct itself but not being able to or whatever...that makes more sense to me! (plus you don't have to look at every appearance of kang and try to figure out how many damn alternate universes that guy must have made...)

[Expletive Deleted]

I'm not sure I like that Kang's third law of time travel is incorrect. Why would he lie about that? Hmmm... I dunno about that, I'm thinking Kang's law should stick.Eh, Marvel's been playing fast and loose with time travel rules since day one. As these things go, I think McDuffie hit on a fairly decent compromise. The big changes (by whatever arbitrary cosmic criteria that's judged) cause divergences, but the little ones work themselves out.

Consider the cake both had and eaten.

[DeadXMan]

either present Johnny is a skrull and/or Ben is

no matter how confusing things are, there no way in hell would Johnny use"let's talk" option.

[RolandJP]

Consider the cake both had and eaten.

Nice Quote!! and apt! I enjoyed the issue, nice send off for a not so surprisingly good run.

[Iron Mike]

Great issue, Great run, McDuffie writes a great fantastic four, and a great Doom. I'm really sorry to see him leave, especially in light of his replacement

[CyberCoyote]

I loved the issue, loved the whole story line. McDuffie really gets the core concept of the characters, even Doom, and writes a fun sci-fi book. Pelletier's been my favorite regular penciler on the book since Pacheco (and they both embrace Ben Grimm with a 56" waistline when human, but what are ya gonna do?)

The New Guard sounds like they're going to basically do the Millar FF(MFF) and throw many conventional concepts about the team out the window for the sake of sales. That's good, I guess, as the book's rarely in the top of the charts and needs some face time, but while I wait for those 16 issues to come and go I'll always enjoy this last arc by McDuffie and PP as the season ender before Poochie was tossed into the cast on the show :)

[Arilou]

I'm usually immune to schmaltz, but where the FF is concerned? Bring it on.

That final panel was classic.

[bloodyarts]

I have to agree, this was a strong issue, maybe the best in the run.

I had one problem; Doom admitting that he was jealous of Reed.

I'm just not sure Doom would ever admit to being jealous of anyone. Now, we know he respects Reed, but he still hates him, too, right? I sort of brushed it off as, this is future Doom, so anything is game.

Pelletier has grown on me during this run. I hated when he took over on She-Hulk after Juan Bobbito, but here, his style appears to be approaching Bryan Hitch, minus some detail. I really liked it. Facial expressions are varied and properly conveyed, action sequences, even the big two-pager, are easy to follow and pleasing. The most impressive panels were the two which focused on Doom's eyes beneath the mask as he admits Reed succeeded in creating a utopia. Not since Byrne have I seen such well-done Doom, in both writing and art.

Also, I was hoping to see some more Sue badassery (which didn't happen, even with a supposedly much more powerful Sue to play with), but I was pleasantly surprised to see white-hot Johnny and the AWESOME, AWESOME, "Flame Off" moment.

I must say, I had almost written FF off after Waid's terrible run. JMS, a writer I normally don't like much, actually pulled off a very good run. McDuffie, however, during his brief stint has managed to impress me more than the two previous runs. Bravo!

Except, um, let's not have Surfer job like that anymore, mmkay? (yeah, we heard the excu.. ahem, explanation you gave, but c'mon...)

[CMBMOOL]

Wow they even mention the events of World War Hulk in this issue, now it's got to be worth the money. :D

[DaeJi]

I liked this issue. McDuffie was a good FF writer, brought a really classic feel to the series. I liked his run a lot, and though I'm really looking forward to Miller and Hitch, I would welcome McDuffie back. And older Sue is hot. Just saying. She'll age well.

[Jack]

I must say, I had almost written FF off after Waid's terrible run. JMS, a writer I normally don't like much, actually pulled off a very good run.It's like you're Bizarro Jack..

[drwho]

I really think Mcduffie has a good grasp on the FF as a family and thought the number 4 ending was a cute send off on his run. Too bad we never found out what was going on with Deathlok in this. There seems to be some loose threads that wont get picked up anywhere.

[Brian M.]

This was a good issue. I look forward to seeing if Millar/Hitch play off this Plan 101 thing or not.

[ivesaidway2much]

This issue was way, way too sappy for me. Plus, it's pretty hard to buy into the concept of conservation of history when you've got Mephisto single-handedly bringing people back from the dead and altering numerous past events in another fairly high-profile comic still on the stands.

[Brian M.]

This issue was way, way too sappy for me. Plus, it's pretty hard to buy into the concept of conservation of history when you've got Mephisto single-handedly bringing people back from the dead and altering numerous past events in another fairly high-profile comic still on the stands.

Well that's magic, they don't have to...nevermind.

[Arilou]

Well that's magic, they don't have to...nevermind.

To be fair, I could accept that. (as in, you can break the normal rules of physics b magic, why not those that apply to time-travel?)

[Expletive Deleted]

I'm usually immune to schmaltz, but where the FF is concerned? Bring it on.

That final panel was classic.Yeah, that was a really, really nice moment.

[bulbasteve]

I'm usually immune to schmaltz, but where the FF is concerned? Bring it on.

That final panel was classic.

That or Dooms revelation! That two panel "Paradise. It's a paradise" thing was damn nice.

I'm just not sure Doom would ever admit to being jealous of anyone. Now, we know he respects Reed, but he still hates him, too, right? I sort of brushed it off as, this is future Doom, so anything is game.

Ok I lied.... the actual best part was Doom fading through the time machine and saying Reed isn't a monster...

[XPac]

Hmmm... I'm not sure there's a topic in all of comics that is less appealing to me than trying to define rules for time travel. Blah.

Overall, I gotta say this was kind of a flat end to an overall flat run on McDuffies part (aside from some pretty dam cool CW issues right at the start).

Ah well. Bring on Millar.

[CaptainCanada]

This was a good issue. I look forward to seeing if Millar/Hitch play off this Plan 101 thing or not.
Well, the whole "100 ideas for the future" thing was Millar's concept, so I imagine he'll continue with that sort of scientific idealism. Since Plan 101 seems to be defined as "Reed fixes all human needs", that leaves future writers with a lot of room to work with.

[XPac]

Well, the whole "100 ideas for the future" thing was Millar's concept, so I imagine he'll continue with that sort of scientific idealism. Since Plan 101 seems to be defined as "Reed fixes all human needs", that leaves future writers with a lot of room to work with.

Still, I wonder if writing Reed now requires him to fix all human needs. Obviously he can't do that since that changes the MU from the world we live in. So he either has to contantly fail doing it, or come to the realization that it's wrong, or just kind of forget about it.

[Pixie_Solanas]

Overload on the saccharine schmaltz. Flush down toilet. The last panel had me howling (in pain).

[DaeJi]

Still, I wonder if writing Reed now requires him to fix all human needs. Obviously he can't do that since that changes the MU from the world we live in. So he either has to contantly fail doing it, or come to the realization that it's wrong, or just kind of forget about it.

You know, they could always just say that Reed's inventions and stuff are either too dangerous for mass production or that they cost way too much.

[XPac]

You know, they could always just say that Reed's inventions and stuff are either too dangerous for mass production or that they cost way too much.

Obviously they weren't though, because they did create paradise. So in theory it's doable, unless they come up with a explanation why it wouldn't be in this time frame (which I guess is suppossed to be the same time frame as the future FF... I still don't get time travel).

[bulbasteve]

Well they did mention that it would still be years before Reed "gained back the public trust" becuase of CW and all the Illuminati nonsense, so what with a sliding timescale and all you got a lot of time. Plus this future is 75 years from now! They just look much younger cause ...oh yeah REED RICHARDS CURES AGING!

[Arilou]

Obviously Reed Richards wasn't so useless after all.

[CaptainCanada]

They just look much younger cause ...oh yeah REED RICHARDS CURES AGING!
The possibility of his wife becoming old and wrinkled gave him sufficient motivation.

[CyberCoyote]

Still, I wonder if writing Reed now requires him to fix all human needs. Obviously he can't do that since that changes the MU from the world we live in. So he either has to contantly fail doing it, or come to the realization that it's wrong, or just kind of forget about it.

Well, it's 75 years in THEIR future, which works into about three or five CENTURIES for us as readers. Nothing to worry about as writers :D

[voltron]

i dunno
i was a little disappointed
i guess a part of me wanted doom to be right, and reed to be in the wrong.
i mean the fact that he does fix everything.......
i dunno, i didnt like the ending, to wat promised to be a very good arc...

[Alpow]

Still, I wonder if writing Reed now requires him to fix all human needs.

It should from now on.

Clearly the FF is now about executing 101 and since we know it works they can't really drop it, unless they retcon the future FF to being evil/robots/whatever.

It didn't make sense though that Reed says it requires four people to change the world, his actions in civil war were predicated upon the idea that he needed to act in that manner because of his tea leaf reading equation.
However if it takes four people in the know then how could he have altered anything?
He could have gone anti-reg and according to his idea everything would have still turned out the same.

All in all I would have preferred Doom to have been right, if for no other reason than it doesn't tie the FF into a course that somebody will eventually break.

[CaptainCanada]

However if it takes four people in the know then how could he have altered anything?
No, it takes at least four people working together; he was involved directing an action involving considerably more than four people.

We're told that 101 takes decades to come into effect, so it's not that big an imposition; Reed's always been an inventor anyway.

[Alpow]

No, it takes at least four people working together; he was involved directing an action involving considerably more than four people.


But he was the only one trying to alter history (everybody else not being aware of his equation) and was thus an individual whose actions should have "cancelled out".

It also seemed rather dubious to me that Reed can presumably predict the actions of a Foursome (since that is the smallest predictable and statistically relevant group) using his equation, surely he could have banged the warbound into his equation and retired to Hawaii for the week knowing they weren't going to alter much for the people of New York (who number more than four).

It seems to make the equation even more outlandish because it goes from being about general societal trends to being able to model every group of four or more people and thus build a perfect model because those below that threshold are unimportant.

It just didn't make sense to me, but then again I don't really buy that Mephisto/Galactus/Sentry/Hulk/etc can't alter the future so I probably wasn't going to be on board anyway.

[XPac]

It should from now on.

Clearly the FF is now about executing 101 and since we know it works they can't really drop it, unless they retcon the future FF to being evil/robots/whatever.

It didn't make sense though that Reed says it requires four people to change the world, his actions in civil war were predicated upon the idea that he needed to act in that manner because of his tea leaf reading equation.
However if it takes four people in the know then how could he have altered anything?
He could have gone anti-reg and according to his idea everything would have still turned out the same.

All in all I would have preferred Doom to have been right, if for no other reason than it doesn't tie the FF into a course that somebody will eventually break.

Yeah... there's something about it that leaves a bad taste in my mouth. A part of me wished that Doom was right too. Or at least right on some level.

I just don't like the idea of anyone bringing about paradise... to me, call me a cynic but I always think there's a price tag. Maybe I just read Squadron Supreme too many times, I don't know.

[Alpow]

Yeah... there's something about it that leaves a bad taste in my mouth. A part of me wished that Doom was right too. Or at least right on some level.

I just don't like the idea of anyone bringing about paradise... to me, call me a cynic but I always think there's a price tag. Maybe I just read Squadron Supreme too many times, I don't know.

There should be a price tag so that the scenario is interesting "they all lived happily ever after" is a conclusion and not something to be examined.

It also sort of cheapens anything else, over in the X-men they are trying to prevent a dystopian future (out of only two possible futures, presumably the other one is Reed's future but I doubt we will be shown that and might well be shown differently) but since it is pre-destined they should have just let Predator-X eat the kid because we are utopia bound no matter what the X-men do (or if the kid is important then Predator-X would have been hit by a falling satellite etc).

Time travel stories are good if you can alter the future or if you get to the future and the big twist is that your knowledge of time travelled lead you there (which only really works in stand alone stories).

Once people figure out that prophecies always come true then they no longer have to do anything and nothing they can do matters.

In practical terms this doesn't make a huge difference (since the FF or Doom are unlikely to die permanently nor will we ever get to that future) but it does mean at the back of our minds we know that no matter what scenarios happen the FF will establish their utopia and nothing anybody else gets upto will change that which in theory reduces tension.

[CaptainCanada]

But he was the only one trying to alter history (everybody else not being aware of his equation) and was thus an individual whose actions should have "cancelled out".

No, he's trying to alter history, and he's directing numerous others in the course of doing so. Whether you know you're altering history would be irrelevant to if your actions do.

[Zero Hunter]

I was disapointed in this ending. It was just to happy and clean after all the stuff that has been going on in this title since Civil War. I was hoping that Doom was right and that Reed in the future had really lost sight of what he was doing, and that Reed seeing this would wake up and realize he needs to start thinking differntly about some things. Instead we get an ending where Reed is totaly right about everything, and the future is just perfect for everyone. That sounds like the most boring future ever in terms of comic book futures.

Since this is going to be my last issue for a long time I was hoping for something good and meaniful, but instead we got this. I had enjoyed most of this run, and relaly thought they would go out with a bang. Since I really can't stand the Millar/Hitch combo I will jushave to accept that the last FF story for the forseable future for me was a letdown.

[dabig2]

There should be a price tag so that the scenario is interesting "they all lived happily ever after" is a conclusion and not something to be examined.

It also sort of cheapens anything else, over in the X-men they are trying to prevent a dystopian future (out of only two possible futures, presumably the other one is Reed's future but I doubt we will be shown that and might well be shown differently) but since it is pre-destined they should have just let Predator-X eat the kid because we are utopia bound no matter what the X-men do (or if the kid is important then Predator-X would have been hit by a falling satellite etc).

Time travel stories are good if you can alter the future or if you get to the future and the big twist is that your knowledge of time travelled lead you there (which only really works in stand alone stories).

Once people figure out that prophecies always come true then they no longer have to do anything and nothing they can do matters.

In practical terms this doesn't make a huge difference (since the FF or Doom are unlikely to die permanently nor will we ever get to that future) but it does mean at the back of our minds we know that no matter what scenarios happen the FF will establish their utopia and nothing anybody else gets upto will change that which in theory reduces tension.

Agreed. I was not a fan of how it ended. I did not like the constant reassurances that their future is indeed what the 616 is heading to. I know it'll never come around in our lifetimes, but yes, it is like that 1 thing that'll constantly bug you in the recesses of your mind in every single event from now on.

That is, unless it's shoved under the rug from now on and they further let us know that the future is never set in stone.

[Alpow]

No, he's trying to alter history, and he's directing numerous others in the course of doing so.

But that is just an individual altering history because it is his directions that are causing the change.

After all an individual affects everyone else on the planet so therefore every individual is enough to change the future because of their influence on others, which is quite clearly not what they were going for.

Whether you know you're altering history would be irrelevant to if your actions do.

The equation idea is based upon the fact that only those in the know can change history.

[vampireboy97]

Ok, if you've read Fantastic Four #551 you would have been cycked at the way it ended with Reed Richards finally showing some character and shooting future Namor in the face. Only to be disappointed in issue #552 with a predictable dislead as Future Namor was actually just a robot and everything Doom said was a lie.

Concluding everything in #553, we find the awesome Dr. Doom humbled and humiliated and that Reed was right all along.

As a marvel fan who was well on his way to never picking up another FF comic every again, it just sucks that Marvel would disappoint everyone like this. Doom should have been right and have Future Sue leave Reed for Namor at least have Future Namor be a real person instead of a robot. For the first time I thought Reed showed some balls, but instead, it all just fell to ****.

I really hope that somewhere along the lines Sue really does leave Reed for Namor.

--------------------------

HAIL THE ATLATIAN, WAKANDIA, ATTILAN AND LATVERIAN ALLIANCE

[CMBMOOL]

I was disapointed in this ending. It was just to happy and clean after all the stuff that has been going on in this title since Civil War. I was hoping that Doom was right and that Reed in the future had really lost sight of what he was doing, and that Reed seeing this would wake up and realize he needs to start thinking differntly about some things. Instead we get an ending where Reed is totaly right about everything, and the future is just perfect for everyone. That sounds like the most boring future ever in terms of comic book futures.

Since this is going to be my last issue for a long time I was hoping for something good and meaniful, but instead we got this. I had enjoyed most of this run, and relaly thought they would go out with a bang. Since I really can't stand the Millar/Hitch combo I will jushave to accept that the last FF story for the forseable future for me was a letdown.

Well I can't say that I disagree with you, but I must ask what would happen to Marvel if Doom was proven right and Reed was wrong, for once ?

[Thursaiz]

Yeah, it was pretty lame. I did like the Kang reference though.

[DoctorNemesis]

Well I can't say that I disagree with you, but I must ask what would happen to Marvel if Doom was proven right and Reed was wrong, for once ?

Doom is supposed to be the bad guy, after all.

[chastmastr]

Yeah... there's something about it that leaves a bad taste in my mouth. A part of me wished that Doom was right too. Or at least right on some level.

I just don't like the idea of anyone bringing about paradise... to me, call me a cynic but I always think there's a price tag. Maybe I just read Squadron Supreme too many times, I don't know.

He was right -- in his litany of what Reed has already done wrong. And that's too high a price tag as it already is. And this still has not been satisfactorily dealt with in my view.

I'm really disappointed to hear this. Especially after Doom gives that list of things Reed had done wrong in the last couple of years, I was thinking we'd see Reed somehow face up to that and recognize he'd started down the wrong path, rather than saying he did the math and that somehow makes his actions morally right.

Given that McDuffie has done such excellent work before, especially in JLU, dealing with issues relating to fascism-in-the-name-of-the-common-good, I was expecting better here.

Dammit. :(

David

[bulbasteve]

Even more interesting that he pretty clearly called him his father...I always thought there was some weird alternate future stuff going on with Nate Richards and Kang or something...or at least thats what the wiki said! :D

But ...I don't get why you are disappointed with the arc...cause you want Reed to be evil? Get over it! :p

[chastmastr]

Well I can't say that I disagree with you, but I must ask what would happen to Marvel if Doom was proven right and Reed was wrong, for once ?

Reed might realize just how far off the rails he's gone (I mean, when Doctor Doom calls you on how you've behaved, it should be kind of a wake-up call...) and become a hero again, perhaps paving the way for things to get better in general?

[bulbasteve]

It seems to make the equation even more outlandish because it goes from being about general societal trends to being able to model every group of four or more people and thus build a perfect model because those below that threshold are unimportant.

It just didn't make sense to me, but then again I don't really buy that Mephisto/Galactus/Sentry/Hulk/etc can't alter the future so I probably wasn't going to be on board anyway.

Yet he said the reason why was because of the "conservation of history", seems to me that his psychohistory comes from how timelines work in the MU. Certainly even we see that most What If stories are from some major single person change that couldn't be corrected.

He was right -- in his litany of what Reed has already done wrong. And that's too high a price tag as it already is. And this still has not been satisfactorily dealt with in my view.

He said that all his predictions were right for CW and stuff right away, that wasn't a litany of things that were wrong, but of things he had to do or else you know...the end of the freakin world.

[gorthon616]

Doom is supposed to be the bad guy, after all.

Right. But now he's just a liar. That's not being a villain. This is like "Reed got the last Krispy Kreme donut! I must travel back in time and give him a prank call to distract him while I get the donut! For it is mine by right! For the last donut is the destiny of Doom!"... which actually sounds kind of amusing.

[XPac]

Right. But now he's just a liar. That's not being a villain. This is like "Reed got the last Krispy Kreme donut! I must travel back in time and give him a prank call to distract him while I get the donut! For it is mine by right! For the last donut is the destiny of Doom!"... which actually sounds kind of amusing.

Yeah... Doom does come off looking pretty stupid. Never a good sign for a story. Though I guess that's just what happens when Doom when Reed gets involved. Ah well.

Hopefully Doom will come off cooler in his Richards free appearance in MA.

[bulbasteve]

Right. But now he's just a liar. That's not being a villain. This is like "Reed got the last Krispy Kreme donut! I must travel back in time and give him a prank call to distract him while I get the donut! For it is mine by right! For the last donut is the destiny of Doom!"... which actually sounds kind of amusing.

But...sue herself said that Doom doesn't lie he only misleads! SO SAYS DOOM!

And really, he isn't a villain...wasn't that the point of the ending! The world just was not big enough for two saviors :p (also one is a villain...oops)

[chastmastr]

He said that all his predictions were right for CW and stuff right away, that wasn't a litany of things that were wrong, but of things he had to do or else you know...the end of the freakin world.

And I still maintain that they were wrong. The Reed who saved the life of Galactus on principle would not say that the end justifies the means, even if it were to save the world.

Just as well I am dropping the book now that McDuffie is leaving and Millar is coming on, but I expected much better from the former than this.

David

[Zero Hunter]

Well I can't say that I disagree with you, but I must ask what would happen to Marvel if Doom was proven right and Reed was wrong, for once ?

I think it could have shown Reed that if he keeps going like he is he would turn into someone worse than Doom in the long run. It would have let Reed get a look at what he could become if he wasn't carefull.

[Will.S]

I haven't read the entire last arc (as soon as I will I'll comment) but I think I liked the Frightful Four stuff the most and anytime the Silver Surfer, Gravity, and Uatu the Watcher shows up.

[ivesaidway2much]

Even more interesting that he pretty clearly called him his father...I always thought there was some weird alternate future stuff going on with Nate Richards and Kang or something...or at least thats what the wiki said! :D

But ...I don't get why you are disappointed with the arc...cause you want Reed to be evil? Get over it! :pIt's not that Reed needs to be evil. The problem is the solution is just plain boring. All the FF need to do to bring about a perfect utopia is to just keep doing what they already do. While to accomplish the same goal in the X-books, Bishop needs to kill an innocent baby girl. There's just no conflict in the FF scenario. Plus all the little hints of pre-destination inch them dangerously close to Mary Sueism.

For instance, say the Avengers disagree with the FF over how to deal with the Skrulls. Given that we know if the FF stay on their current path, Reed will fix EVERYTHING, who is more likely to right? Being proven right ahead of time, removes a lot of the compelling aspects of a storyline.

[Expletive Deleted]

The idea isn't that the FF will always be right about everything. It's that they'll, on the whole, end up changing the world for the better.

That's the whole point of being a superhero, isn't it?

[XPac]

The idea isn't that the FF will always be right about everything. It's that they'll, on the whole, end up changing the world for the better.

That's the whole point of being a superhero, isn't it?

I'm not sure that's the point of being a hero if they do it the way Reed did it. Though I suppose that's debatable.

[Expletive Deleted]

I'm not sure that's the point of being a hero if they do it the way Reed did it. Though I suppose that's debatable.That falls under the "not always being right about everything" part of the statement.

McDuffie has spent the better part of a year trying to rehabilitate Reed Richards after Civil War. He's moved the character from thinking that a given future (registration, etc.) is inevitable to thinking that it's possible for four people to change the future for the better. This whole arc can be viewed as McDuffie's way of getting Reed to repudiate his psychohistory theory and, by association, his prior actions. It's not a perfect fix, but it does the job if we're willing to let it.

I guess what I'm trying to say, here, is . . . even if we can't entirely let go of Civil War (and yes, I know, it was awful), what's wrong with taking whatever opportunities are presented, however imperfect, to put it behind us and move forward? Because, honestly, this constant wallowing in the negativity engendered by that one lousy story has made talking comics a lot less fun.

[XPac]

That falls under the "not always being right about everything" part of the statement.

Maybe, but the problem is that's the only part of his 101 plan that we've seen. So that to a large extent is what we use to judge it by.

[mikekerr3]

That falls under the "not always being right about everything" part of the statement.

But how wrong can you be with peoples lives and still be a hero. Clor was an abomination. The idea that it was necessary is debunked by reed himself as no individual changes history significantly, that idea is a crock anyway.

Salk, Jenner, Norman Borlaugh(sp?), Lao Tse, Buddha Mohammed and Confucious all put this to to a test, which it fails. Reed may know math but it doesn't sound like he ever opened a history book.

Silly premis but this was a good story. Glad my oldest bought it.

[Expletive Deleted]

Maybe, but the problem is that's the only part of his 101 plan that we've seen. So that to a large extent is what we use to judge it by.That's where a willingness to be optimistic comes in.

[Expletive Deleted]

Clor was an abomination.Yes, and that one stupid plot point in that one **** story has irreparably tainted the character to the point that no writer can ever attempt to move past it and write him in a manner that's positive, optimistic, or heroic ever again.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go slit my wrists.

[gorthon616]

I guess what I'm trying to say, here, is . . . even if we can't entirely let go of Civil War (and yes, I know, it was awful), what's wrong with taking whatever opportunities are presented, however imperfect, to put it behind us and move forward? Because, honestly, this constant wallowing in the negativity engendered by that one lousy story has made talking comics a lot less fun.

Even though I didn't like the ending (which is more I didn't enjoy it for story reasons then I think Reed Richards is evil/misguided/etc.) I have to say, I definitely agree with that sentiment. For the most part I ignore anything that happened in Civil War unless it's directly relevant to the story/characters. Everything works out better that way.

[jackolover]

Marvel really has ignored Karl Kesels 'Death in the Family' storyline, where Sue gets killed. If the causality storyline is now true, then you can't go back and stop Lincoln from being assasinated, and you can't go back and stop Sue from being killed. Ergo, Sue should have got killed anyway, and she didn't. It was such a slap in the face, as I read this issue. Why would Marvel even go with DITF if they were going to retcon it immediately?

As for this issue, it fits with Dooms behavior to go to all the trouble of escaping his prison to thwart Reeds plans for #101, just so Doom could be the earths savior, because of Dooms massive ego. Sure, that sounded reasonable. But why would future Reed wait the whole issue to bring that point out? We get this 3 issue story, and it's wound around a little bit of Future Doom toying with the foibles of possibility, in the hope he can dupe a past version of Richards, only to be accompanied by his good friends, the FF of the Future, so Doom can express his frustrations, and in the end agree to accept that Past Reed was a very good fellow.

I noticed Sue Richards got an inordinate amount of time in the limelight in this issue, as the storyteller, and unraveller. Yet, in the end, it was Reed and Future Reed who did the actual true elaboration, while we got spectacular butt shots of Sue posturing during the story. Sue was just the eye candy, and well appreciated, Pelletier and Magyer.

We did get a little more detail about the plan #101 that Reed created to bring peace and prosperity to mankind, so that means the triple team of Reed Tony and Hank didn't go any further than plan #99, because plan #100 was to think of 100 more plans, and obviously, that didn't happen between the 3 of them. Reed had to perpetuate the plan by himself.

I'm surprised the Future Reed rattled off the 3 events of the current era of the CW, WWH, and the Skrull Invasion, yet didn't inadvertantly slip up and mention some, as-yet, unknown event. That would have been some tantalising tit-bit for Mc Duffie to have treated us with.

[jackolover]

I think it works...I mean why should the fact that you own a time machine mean you literally make a new universe. But the universe trying to correct itself but not being able to or whatever...that makes more sense to me! (plus you don't have to look at every appearance of kang and try to figure out how many damn alternate universes that guy must have made...)

It was the premise of that movie, Time Machine 2, where whatever the professor tried to do to save his loved one, something always contrived to kill her anyway, and he gave up.



I just don't like the idea of anyone bringing about paradise... to me, call me a cynic but I always think there's a price tag. Maybe I just read Squadron Supreme too many times, I don't know.

Lets look at that. Maybe that is McDuffies present to us, as readers.

You can consider Paradise, Marvel Universe style, a kind of hyperbole unattainable ideal, because like another poster says, in 500 years when this comes about, there is a good chance nobody will be reading Marvel Comics; the Marvel icons won't exist; and even if the fictitious FF did, the history of 500 years in the future is going to be so different to our present philosophy, that the definition of paradise and what it actually is could be quite different. For instance. The future FF could have been totally bullsh*tting about the future and we would never know. Whose going to go check?

[jackolover]

even if we can't entirely let go of Civil War (and yes, I know, it was awful), what's wrong with taking whatever opportunities are presented, however imperfect, to put it behind us and move forward? Because, honestly, this constant wallowing in the negativity engendered by that one lousy story has made talking comics a lot less fun.

Considering Civil War was the best selling event for a long time, and the stories were compelling, I fail to grasp how CW was aweful or lousy. If you are saying CW has ruined the fun that Marvel Comics used to be, then I'd agree with you, and maybe that's what CW will ultimately be judged for. But as a text for what it is, an exercise in conflict amongst super heros, CW was far from awful or lousy. It continues to be a feast of information on the behavior of characters under certain crisis conditions. Unless, of coarse, you are dismissing all the characterisations as depicted in the stories, as false and wrong, in which case Tom Brevoort has pulled the biggest con in the history of the MU?

But as to moving on from CW, I don't think we can do anything else, because look at BND and the new Cap. These stories go past the dark days of CW and into the more nolstagic conventional stories we're all used too.

[xarathos]

Hey, everything turns out alright, guess we don't need to worry about those Skrulls or whatever Millar's doing next month.

Well, I can't say I regretted reading the last twelve ssues of FF, I think they've worked out great. See you some other time.

[Alpow]

Yet he said the reason why was because of the "conservation of history", seems to me that his psychohistory comes from how timelines work in the MU. Certainly even we see that most What If stories are from some major single person change that couldn't be corrected.


That is the point, there shouldn't be any change an individual could make that would affect history according to Reed's theory.

Take the Civil War What If, Tony makes a tiny change in dialogue and everything changes, that means that Reed's model has to account for how Tony Stark decides what to say.

[Alpow]

Yes, and that one stupid plot point in that one **** story has irreparably tainted the character to the point that no writer can ever attempt to move past it and write him in a manner that's positive, optimistic, or heroic ever again.


This was the perfect opportunity to salvage him here.

Doom should have been substantially correct, Reed sees what following an equation over ethics brings the world and then decides to ignore psychohistory and trust in his conscience and his family to tell him what the right thing to do is.

Therefore he would have made a mistake and learned a lesson but instead it turns out that he was pretty much right all along (although don't examine that idea too closely because it falls apart on closer inspection).

There was a chance to redeem Reed but instead the story simply attempted to validate his prior behaviour.

[Visitor Q]

McDuffie has spent the better part of a year trying to rehabilitate Reed Richards after Civil War. He's moved the character from thinking that a given future (registration, etc.) is inevitable to thinking that it's possible for four people to change the future for the better. This whole arc can be viewed as McDuffie's way of getting Reed to repudiate his psychohistory theory and, by association, his prior actions. It's not a perfect fix, but it does the job if we're willing to let it.



I don't see it that way.

The ending states that he could only predict the actions of 4 or more people, and that it takes at least 4 people to be able to change the world.

The latter doesn't mean that 4 people will ALWAYS be able to change the world--that's where Reed's psychohistory comes in, as a way of evaluating and predicting which actions will lead that group to succeed.

This issue confirms Reed's theories, not rejects them.

[ivesaidway2much]

The idea isn't that the FF will always be right about everything. It's that they'll, on the whole, end up changing the world for the better.

That's the whole point of being a superhero, isn't it?I have no issue with the FF making the world a better place. That's why they became heroes. But the FF are going to do far more than that. They are going to create paradise on Earth. And it's all predetermined. At this point, the FF's mistakes are more right that other heroes solutions, given what the results of their actions are going to be. It's now borderline evil to even think of standing in their way. Because your actions could delay or even destroy your children/grandchildren's utopia.

[Expletive Deleted]

I fail to grasp how CW was aweful or lousy.Good for you, then.

Personally, I look at the current state of discourse in Marvel fandom, and all I see is its toxic aftereffects.

[Sean Whitmore]

Personally, I look at the current state of discourse in Marvel fandom, and all I see is its toxic aftereffects.

Eh, we'd have found something else to complain about.


SEAN

[Expletive Deleted]

This issue confirms Reed's theories, not rejects them.I guess it depends on how you read it. How about . . . it rejects the way he was applying his theory? Instead of hiding alone in his number cave and doing bad things because he's afraid even worse things are inevitable, he's re-embraced his family and the notion of making the world a better place proactively. It's a contrast between the future he talks about in McDuffie's first storyline that provided the rationale for Registration and the future we see here. Would that work better for you?

I mean, I'm all for reading the story however each of us wants. I just think we're better off finding positive interpretations than negative ones.

[Expletive Deleted]

Eh, we'd have found something else to complain about.Well, sure. And that story probably would've sucked, too.

[CMBMOOL]

That falls under the "not always being right about everything" part of the statement.

McDuffie has spent the better part of a year trying to rehabilitate Reed Richards after Civil War. He's moved the character from thinking that a given future (registration, etc.) is inevitable to thinking that it's possible for four people to change the future for the better. This whole arc can be viewed as McDuffie's way of getting Reed to repudiate his psychohistory theory and, by association, his prior actions. It's not a perfect fix, but it does the job if we're willing to let it.

I guess what I'm trying to say, here, is . . . even if we can't entirely let go of Civil War (and yes, I know, it was awful), what's wrong with taking whatever opportunities are presented, however imperfect, to put it behind us and move forward? Because, honestly, this constant wallowing in the negativity engendered by that one lousy story has made talking comics a lot less fun.


This was the same Reed Richards who send away the Hulk into space, despite his past jobs as a semi-hero to the Marvel U, and he did it in an unlawful way. :(

[Expletive Deleted]

They are going to create paradise on Earth. And it's all predetermined. ... It's now borderline evil to even think of standing in their way. Because your actions could delay or even destroy your children/grandchildren's utopia.I think you're overstating the implications of seeing "the future." McDuffie's not saying that every choice they make will be the right one. Just that, on balance, their actions will lead to that perfect future.

Even if we accept that particular future as predestined (and, what with all the time travel shenanigans going on, I don't think we necessarily should), that still leaves a lot of things up in the air.

[Brian M.]

I really think people are looking way to much into this. This was a decent story. Reed, in general is a good guy and tries to be. We all make mistakes. I make mistakes, but b/c of my limited means right now, my mistakes don't really affect anyone but me. Reed is loaded, the smarted man on the planet, his access to all kinds of cool s#$% is unlimited. So when he makes a mistake, the toys he makes mistakes with cause bigger problems. But he's still a hero, still a good man.

[Expletive Deleted]

This was the same Reed Richards who send away the Hulk into space, despite his past jobs as a semi-hero to the Marvel U, and he did it in an unlawful way.Yes, it was. And that sucked. So why don't we take the "out" that McDuffie has so kindly provided and try to put it behind us?

[XPac]

I really think people are looking way to much into this. This was a decent story. Reed, in general is a good guy and tries to be. We all make mistakes. I make mistakes, but b/c of my limited means right now, my mistakes don't really affect anyone but me. Reed is loaded, the smarted man on the planet, his access to all kinds of cool s#$% is unlimited. So when he makes a mistake, the toys he makes mistakes with cause bigger problems. But he's still a hero, still a good man.

I don't think anyone is questioning whether his intentions are good.

But here's the thing... in comicbook fiction we basically see that good well intentioned people who bring about paradise often to it at a terrible price. Readers are almost conditioned to assume that, because that's basically what we always get.

Combine that with what we've seen from the first 42 parts of Reeds 101 plan, and it's easy enough to see why something about this leaves a bad taste in at least some readers minds. We don't see the rest of Reeds 101 plan... we may never see the rest. All we can do is judge what we've seen so far. There is the arguement about positive versus negative interpretations... but again given how the VAST majority of the time these attempts to bring about utopia end up distopian, I think it's more than understandable that a cynical view might form in a lot of people's minds.

[chastmastr]

That falls under the "not always being right about everything" part of the statement.

McDuffie has spent the better part of a year trying to rehabilitate Reed Richards after Civil War. He's moved the character from thinking that a given future (registration, etc.) is inevitable to thinking that it's possible for four people to change the future for the better. This whole arc can be viewed as McDuffie's way of getting Reed to repudiate his psychohistory theory and, by association, his prior actions. It's not a perfect fix, but it does the job if we're willing to let it.

I guess what I'm trying to say, here, is . . . even if we can't entirely let go of Civil War (and yes, I know, it was awful), what's wrong with taking whatever opportunities are presented, however imperfect, to put it behind us and move forward? Because, honestly, this constant wallowing in the negativity engendered by that one lousy story has made talking comics a lot less fun.

I thought part of the problem was precisely that Reed hadn't repudiated either his theory or his actions -- and also, Civil War wasn't just a one-shot event which can be ignored, but something setting up the present fascist status quo of the MU as a whole... :(

David

[mikekerr3]

Yes, and that one stupid plot point in that one **** story has irreparably tainted the character to the point that no writer can ever attempt to move past it and write him in a manner that's positive, optimistic, or heroic ever again.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go slit my wrists.

No but moving past will require some explaination of why he was so willing to be such a ruthless B*****d. The moving past requires a acnolledgement of wrongdoing. Otherwise i believe that he would do the same thing again.

Reed Richards is too powerfull to hold with the concept that his ends justify any means. A simple on panel "I goofed up" would help a lot.

I

[chastmastr]

Yes, if McDuffie did provide an "out" then I retract everything joyfully, but I thought that the whole point of the thread is that he didn't, and Reed just affirmed what he'd done and his whole recent approach. :confused:

I'm easy, really. I'll take practically any "out" which is offered. While I don't think Crisis-style retcons are good for Marvel, I'd be pleased as punch to have everything from Disassembled on just washed away by the Cosmic Cube, Infinity Gems, Scarlet Witch punching a wall, whatever...

[Expletive Deleted]

I thought part of the problem was precisely that Reed hadn't repudiated either his theory or his actionsIt's not explicit, but that's how I interpreted it.

If you prefer another interpretation, more power to you. -- and also, Civil War wasn't just a one-shot event which can be ignored, but something setting up the present fascist status quo of the MU as a whole...I think it's possible to recognize the current status quo while simultaneously ignoring how it came about. I like to think of Civil War as a black box. The old MU went in and the current MU came out, but we don't have to get bogged down in the specifics of the transformation unless we want to do so. And, personally, I don't want to anymore.

[mikekerr3]

It's not explicit, but that's how I interpreted it.

If you prefer another interpretation, more power to you.I think it's possible to recognize the current status quo while simultaneously ignoring how it came about. I like to think of Civil War as a black box. The old MU went in and the current MU came out, but we don't have to get bogged down in the specifics of the transformation unless we want to do so. And, personally, I don't want to anymore.

I have trouble ignoring a characters actions from so short of time ago. If you use those standards Doom could be a hero in less than a year. IreadMU comics as one long story unless something is retconed reed did whaqt he did and is still culpable for it.

Where's Superboy prime when you need him? I don't like despising Reed, Hank and Tony but the thing they did make me despise them, those thing are still in continuity. Its a lot like a battered wife saying "he has beed good to me lately". Whats acharacter does makes up who the character is. Reed is now too ruthless for me to consider him a hero.

[Expletive Deleted]

I have trouble ignoring a characters actions from so short of time ago. If you use those standards Doom could be a hero in less than a year. IreadMU comics as one long story unless something is retconed reed did whaqt he did and is still culpable for it.I'm not saying ignore everything. I'm saying gloss over the stuff that all of us (well, some of us) agree was poorly written, illogical, and dumb.

I understand the impulse towards taking a hard line when it comes to continuity, but in a situation where different writers have disparate takes on a given character, that kind of approach can lead to irreconcilable conflicts. So I'm suggesting we say that everything still "happened," but we don't necessarily dwell on the details, if that makes sense.

[bulbasteve]

McDuffie has spent the better part of a year trying to rehabilitate Reed Richards after Civil War. He's moved the character from thinking that a given future (registration, etc.) is inevitable to thinking that it's possible for four people to change the future for the better. This whole arc can be viewed as McDuffie's way of getting Reed to repudiate his psychohistory theory and, by association, his prior actions. It's not a perfect fix, but it does the job if we're willing to let it.

Whaaaa? I...even..quoted the last lines of the issue. This wasn't a repudiation of psychohistory it was an even greater embrace of it. They have already mentioned twice in this arc that registration was the only option and since every other choice led to the end of the world, how is that repudiating that it was inevitable?

[chastmastr]

It's not explicit, but that's how I interpreted it.

If you prefer another interpretation, more power to you.I think it's possible to recognize the current status quo while simultaneously ignoring how it came about. I like to think of Civil War as a black box. The old MU went in and the current MU came out, but we don't have to get bogged down in the specifics of the transformation unless we want to do so. And, personally, I don't want to anymore.

I'd prefer to be able to interpret it as saying that, but how can that interpretation be justified from the actual story? :confused:

And I hate the current, fascist MU. It's not as if things were only bad during Civil War -- the whole paradigm is wretched and ghastly and spins out of that. But since the heroes are supposed to mistrust each other precisely because of the lies, betrayals and so forth, how are we as readers expected to forget about it? Heck, Reed's catalogue of misdeeds was just brought up again last issue, so how are we supposed let bygones be bygones??

David

[chastmastr]

I mean, back in the 80s there was this "Mephisto vs. ..." miniseries. Jean Grey made some sort of deal with him for Scott's sake. It's not a good thing to do, but even if it were not resolved in the miniseries, it was easily ignorable if you didn't pick it up. What they not only have done but are still doing with Tony, Reed, etc, is still going on.

Another example is Wolverine. Many of us hated the Romulus storyline, but at the moment, if Marvel never refers to it again, it could indeed be forgotten in a while, with only vague references to Sabretooth's death at Wolverine's hands, say. Now that the Azrael thing is over, that could be forgotten as well, just having Logan with the more limited healing factor he used to have. But that doesn't change their ongoing attempt to move Logan away from focusing on the path of honor, and their dragging him into senseless quests for vengeance right now, all the time, with new writers coming on who say in interviews that they see him as a "hypocrite," and giving him dialogue about how he has "no use for" honor, which violates the whole moral core of the character altogether. I'm far less bothered by silly (and, critically, ignorable) stories about him being descended from wolves and fighting the angel of death than the changed attitude they're giving the character. Even that could be treated as apocryphal, if only they'd just stop doing it and get the character back to normal. But right now, they aren't. Same with Reed and Tony.

And when it's been ongoing and sustained for this long, it's harder and harder to just write off, and will almost require some kind of weird retcon down the line.

Fortunately, I have Marvel Adventures: FF and MA: Iron Man for Reed and Tony, and Wolverine: First Class and Vaughan's Logan mini for Logan, as well as other stuff, to tide me over till all this passes... someday...

David
And the Fantastic Five in the Spider-Girl universe, too

[gorthon616]

But as a text for what it is, an exercise in conflict amongst super heroes, CW was far from awful or lousy. It continues to be a feast of information on the behavior of characters under certain crisis conditions. Unless, of coarse, you are dismissing all the characterizations as depicted in the stories, as false and wrong, in which case Tom Brevoort has pulled the biggest con in the history of the MU?

But as to moving on from CW, I don't think we can do anything else, because look at BND and the new Cap. These stories go past the dark days of CW and into the more nostalgics conventional stories we're all used too.

I'm dismissing the characterizations as false and wrong. ::shrug:: And yes I am saying it's a "con" I suppose (though con implies I feel cheated out of it... I don't. I just think it's a bad story). And yes, I think it was a HORRIBLE "excercise in a conflict amongst super heroes" and frankly was more mindless escalating on both sides to sell a big marvel event.

That being said, frankly, I do like new Cap and the new "darker days" at Marvel. The people who are mostly tackling the new world post-Registration, Brubaker, the Knaufs, and Ellis, have done an amazing job with it. And I wish that they had written it, because if they did, and they wrote it with the integrity and skill that they write their own books, it would have been a fantastic story.

But instead it was what it was. ::shrug::

[mikekerr3]

If they want us to forget the sins of CW they would keep pushing it out that that Reed and Tony were justified by some ridiculous mathmatics. They spent a year showing these characters as , In my opinion < villians. Now we are supposed to forget all that.

Eithout a retcon or a major Mea Culpa they will remain villians to many of us Anti-reg people for a long time.

[gorthon616]

If they want us to forget the sins of CW they would keep pushing it out that that Reed and Tony were justified by some ridiculous mathmatics. They spent a year showing these characters as , In my opinion < villians. Now we are supposed to forget all that.

I'm assuming there is some negative intended in that first sentence, because if ridiculous mathematics was the sort of justification you were gunning for, then they've done that. (I guess.)

But, no. I don't think you're "supposed" to forget all that. In fact, I would say that you are probably more in the right than me. I'm "supposed" to have Reed & Tony = Villains ingrained in my mind. I guess that was the hook of the story, the villain (Reed) turns out to be right.

But consider it this way. To enjoy Civil War, I'd have to forget about all the other years of the characterizations of Iron Man, Mr. Fantastic, and (yes) Captain America. I didn't. And I didn't like it. If I blank slated at the beginning of the story, no doubt I would have enjoyed it more. But I would have to have legitimate story reasons to do so (like give compelling story plots that pointed to the shifts), but I felt that the motivations that pushed them into their actions were contrived, as were their subsequent actions.

Now, if you want to enjoy "hero Reed" you're going to have to buy into it suspension of disbelief. That's your decision.

The simple fact that fans are put into this position is clearly sign that Civil War's intention to show shades of grey, failed and for the most part only demonized one side and martyred the other. That the "complex tale showing moral ambiguity" was in fact not that complex at all, because if it were there would be a level of understanding beyond "oh we are all human and make mistakes." It clearly hasn't. Everything Civil War promised on the substantive storytelling level didn't deliver at all.

And so bad stories make fans have to have selective memories. Because a character poorly written, really becomes two separate characters. It is a fictional character after all. It's just an idea in our head, not bound by a substantive form. So what we think of it, is in fact, what it is. And if we are told to think it is two things that cannot be at the same time, the reader has to choose one. Its not uncommon. There are tons of crappy storylines that while a fan will acknowledge, in truth, does not consider when they create their impression of the character.

Eithout a retcon or a major Mea Culpa they will remain villians to many of us Anti-reg people for a long time.

Don't doubt you.

[mikekerr3]

Whaaaa? I...even..quoted the last lines of the issue. This wasn't a repudiation of psychohistory it was an even greater embrace of it. They have already mentioned twice in this arc that registration was the only option and since every other choice led to the end of the world, how is that repudiating that it was inevitable?

Historically only tyrants have thought that they knew was invevitable ala the Thousand year Riech and The communist view of the invetitable rise of the proletariat. USing force to make your equasions work does not validate them.


Its a silly concept ans was when Isamov thought of it 50 Years ago, even he admited that it was silly. Many of the most important events and ideas in history came from a single brain.

By Reed logic Newton, Jenner, or Salk could have changed the world. Or the poor unameded guy who made slaveries end inevitable by inventing the Horse collar.

The Scientific Method came out of one Monks head and built our world.

A futurist who claims any accuracy is just a charlatain. Too many brains are working on things he could not know of that coould change everything.

[bulbasteve]

Historically only tyrants have thought that they knew was invevitable ala the Thousand year Riech and The communist view of the invetitable rise of the proletariat. USing force to make your equasions work does not validate them.

They were visited from THE FUTURE. Even Doom said that his equations were correct. Aside from the fact that both of those were philosophical and not scientific but hey you were just saying it so you could make your daily required nazi reference so I think we can let that slide.

Its a silly concept ans was when Isamov thought of it 50 Years ago, even he admited that it was silly. Many of the most important events and ideas in history came from a single brain.

By Reed logic Newton, Jenner, or Salk could have changed the world. Or the poor unameded guy who made slaveries end inevitable by inventing the Horse collar.

The Scientific Method came out of one Monks head and built our world.

A futurist who claims any accuracy is just a charlatain. Too many brains are working on things he could not know of that coould change everything.

Again, "Conservation of History". The only reason this DOES work as well as it does is because they live in a universe where time travel is possible and such a thing as branching timelines exist. This isn't Reeds logic, this is simply how the MU works. Aside from the fact Reed himself said he got the idea from Asmiov and made it an actual science...so he would agree that it was silly. But this is Reed Richards, I think he knows a bit more about superscience than we do and can make even the most far out concept actually work :p

[Expletive Deleted]

This wasn't a repudiation of psychohistory it was an even greater embrace of it.Okay. How about . . . he's reassessed how he's applying his theory, bringing his family on board instead of sitting alone in his number cave. He's gone from a somewhat fatalistic outlook in McDuffie's first storyline to a more optimistic outlook in this one, from ameliorating the dystopia to creating the utopia. Better?

I'm less interested in promoting a given interpretation than I am in promoting a given tone.

[RolandJP]

Okay. How about . . . he's reassessed how he's applying his theory, bringing his family on board instead of sitting alone in his number cave. He's gone from a somewhat fatalistic outlook in McDuffie's first storyline to a more optimistic outlook in this one, from ameliorating the dystopia to creating the utopia. Better?

I'm less interested in promoting a given interpretation than I am in promoting a given tone.

Beautiful dissertation!

[mikekerr3]

They were visited from THE FUTURE. Even Doom said that his equations were correct. Aside from the fact that both of those were philosophical and not scientific but hey you were just saying it so you could make your daily required nazi reference so I think we can let that slide.



Again, "Conservation of History". The only reason this DOES work as well as it does is because they live in a universe where time travel is possible and such a thing as branching timelines exist. This isn't Reeds logic, this is simply how the MU works. Aside from the fact Reed himself said he got the idea from Asmiov and made it an actual science...so he would agree that it was silly. But this is Reed Richards, I think he knows a bit more about superscience than we do and can make even the most far out concept actually work :p

If one "person" could not change history the what if's are wrong and Clor was unecessary. It also means that the Hulk was no real threat as the future is rosey acording to reeds calcualtion

Unless he can work out problems with nearly infinite unknow variables any attemp would be silly. He would have to know the intentions and means of everyone in the universe to try it. Believing in beings like Mephisto or Slapstick is easier than this math.

This is just a weak attempt to pacify the fans who think he acted like a villian in the CW and it doesn't work too well. He still betrayed his friends and family and built a gulag in the negative zone. You have said that actions like that are heroic but I think you may be in the minority.

Many of the heros in the MU have saved the world thereby changing history a least once. that invalidates the idea from the start. If one person can't change history the MU must have a very differnt history for the real Universe starting with recored history. No newton or Einstein, no Jenner or Salk, No Lao Tse or Christ. It would not be very much like our world.

[mikekerr3]

Okay. How about . . . he's reassessed how he's applying his theory, bringing his family on board instead of sitting alone in his number cave. He's gone from a somewhat fatalistic outlook in McDuffie's first storyline to a more optimistic outlook in this one, from ameliorating the dystopia to creating the utopia. Better?

I'm less interested in promoting a given interpretation than I am in promoting a given tone.

I want to see some repercussions for his actions.

[Expletive Deleted]

I want to see some repercussions for his actions.Good luck with that.

[DoctorNemesis]

Many of the heros in the MU have saved the world thereby changing history a least once. that invalidates the idea from the start. If one person can't change history the MU must have a very differnt history for the real Universe starting with recored history. No newton or Einstein, no Jenner or Salk, No Lao Tse or Christ. It would not be very much like our world.

Just to play Devil's Advocate, it's perhaps worth pointing out that even those prominent individuals needed other people around them to help them with their breakthroughs, something with the 'Great Man' theory of history tends to ignore. Would these people's discoveries and breakthroughs and teachings - and by extension, they themselves - still be remembered without the people around them they used for support, for inspiration, for testing and spreading their findings? We remember these individual names, certainly, but it's important to also remember that they weren't working entirely alone in a vacuum.

[bulbasteve]

Okay. How about . . . he's reassessed how he's applying his theory, bringing his family on board instead of sitting alone in his number cave. He's gone from a somewhat fatalistic outlook in McDuffie's first storyline to a more optimistic outlook in this one, from ameliorating the dystopia to creating the utopia. Better?

I'm less interested in promoting a given interpretation than I am in promoting a given tone.

You are forgetting a few key things. It was only because Doom revealed 101 that Reed told his family about it (so not exactly as optimistic as you might think). But also remember original story was still during CW and before the "revelation" in CW7 that they were all (though in a much smaller way than Reed I guess) taking on more than just registration but you know...solving world hunger and all that fun stuff. So it was probably just not appropriate to tell it yet.

Though really, it was no revelation at all. This was the inevitable story. It's not like JMS was gunna write it with this faux-libertarian "everyone has to solve their own problems" crap like in Thor #4! Superscience and some good people will save the world. Registration has always had it's heart in a utopian goal, but the end of the world kinda is gunna trump all your nice ideas.

If one "person" could not change history the what if's are wrong and Clor was unecessary. It also means that the Hulk was no real threat as the future is rosey acording to reeds calcualtion

Many of the heros in the MU have saved the world thereby changing history a least once. that invalidates the idea from the start. If one person can't change history the MU must have a very differnt history for the real Universe starting with recored history. No newton or Einstein, no Jenner or Salk, No Lao Tse or Christ. It would not be very much like our world.

It is "history" don't forget. Meaning it already happened, a future actually exists. They are not in whatever the first wave of time was (if such a thing even exists in the MU!). One person could change the world...when it didn't happen already! What this is about is preserving the way the world is "supposed" to go and how many you need to actually change what already happened. You know, why Doom didn't just kill Richards but tried to get them to believe him.

But even if we take what you say to be true it really doesn't add up. It's not like if some random caveman didn't invent the wheel we wouldn't be riding in cars, eventually someone is going to figure it out. And any great political figure is still not working as an individual. Heck the 12 deciples are even more important than christ, why heck if they weren't there then who would have written it down for him to be able to change history! :p

Unless he can work out problems with nearly infinite unknow variables any attemp would be silly. He would have to know the intentions and means of everyone in the universe to try it. Believing in beings like Mephisto or Slapstick is easier than this math.

He is Reed Richards, that should be enough. But if it isn't in this very issue he not only uses a time platform he can actually find alternate realities and be able to see their history! It's pretty easy to know what the major things you need to look out for are when you can see them happen in various shapes and forms in other realities.

This is just a weak attempt to pacify the fans who think he acted like a villian in the CW and it doesn't work too well. He still betrayed his friends and family and built a gulag in the negative zone. You have said that actions like that are heroic but I think you may be in the minority.

Well gee the entire MU in the future thinks it was heroic...you know...stopping the end of the world will do that to people. Sure worked for me!

[chastmastr]

Well gee the entire MU in the future thinks it was heroic...you know...stopping the end of the world will do that to people.
Not all people. Some people actually retain their ethics even when they might personally benefit from someone's bad behavior, and I'd assume that people in the MU would be the same.

What Reed's already done, no matter what ends he had in mind, even saving the world, is unjustifiable and wrong. I'm disturbed to think that his actions, and Tony's and such, are a reflection of what some people at Marvel think are "moral." We're already living in a world where we have real-life secret prisons, basic civil liberties are being chucked out the window, and politicians are falling all over themselves to see who can try to justify torture first; our heroes should be better than that, dammit!!

And that's the bottom line for me...

David
PS: As a side note, I'm genuinely baffled that this particular writer dropped the ball on this -- he did a fantastic job on JLU dealing with similar issues of ends and means, liberty vs. security, etc., so I can't understand how he could portray Reed's actions as being somehow justified... and over in recent JLA the heroes are themselves rightly disturbed by the draconian measures Amanda Waller and company are taking in how they treat the villains, so it doesn't seem like a change in philosophy.

[XPac]

PS: As a side note, I'm genuinely baffled that this particular writer dropped the ball on this -- he did a fantastic job on JLU dealing with similar issues of ends and means, liberty vs. security, etc., so I can't understand how he could portray Reed's actions as being somehow justified... and over in recent JLA the heroes are themselves rightly disturbed by the draconian measures Amanda Waller and company are taking in how they treat the villains, so it doesn't seem like a change in philosophy.

Not to sound uncharitable, but I think McDuffie dropped a lot things during his entire FF run. A lot of his story arcs started off pretty interesting, but ended up kind of flat. Lots of fun dialogue and some good character interaction saved it from being a total wash... but a lot of storylines were both anti-climactic and/or flat out rushed. I'll say this... his first 2 issues were good, but I basically liked his work less and less each preceeding issue.

Ah well... Millar is coming on board, and given the tremendous job he did in JLU I'm assuming he'll be a much better fit in JLA anyways.

[RolandJP]

Not to sound uncharitable, but I think McDuffie dropped a lot things during his entire FF run. A lot of his story arcs started off pretty interesting, but ended up kind of flat. Lots of fun dialogue and some good character interaction saved it from being a total wash... but a lot of storylines were both anti-climactic and/or flat out rushed. I'll say this... his first 2 issues were good, but I basically liked his work less and less each preceeding issue.

Ah well... Millar is coming on board, and given the tremendous job he did in JLU I'm assuming he'll be a much better fit in JLA anyways.

true, but editorial cut his legs off, then asked him to run a marathon. He had plans for gravity, to become the new Capt. marvel..that was dashed to bits. SO i understand the herky jerky nature of some plots, considering they were Vadered before they had a chance.

[mikekerr3]

Well gee the entire MU in the future thinks it was heroic...you know...stopping the end of the world will do that to people. Sure worked for me!

One time line likes it, thats all that is shown.

Didn't save the mutants or stop the concentration camps (see the X-men), Cables and Bishops worlds still happened. There are infinite future time lines, he fixed one , he may have broken others. The one they sent Doom to for example. Unless you believe in predestination anything that can happen makes its own time line. Or maybe Reed just fixes that so only the time line he chooses happens. May be has a butterfly effect nullifier or something.

Reed Richards Smart but you seem to think to think he is omniscient, he can't even treat his wife fairly but you think that he can predict the action of every group on earth.

[chastmastr]

true, but editorial cut his legs off, then asked him to run a marathon. He had plans for gravity, to become the new Capt. marvel..that was dashed to bits. SO i understand the herky jerky nature of some plots, considering they were Vadered before they had a chance.

Hmmm. I wonder if that's part of what happened to this storyline, too...

[Grimm]

true, but editorial cut his legs off, then asked him to run a marathon. He had plans for gravity, to become the new Capt. marvel..that was dashed to bits. SO i understand the herky jerky nature of some plots, considering they were Vadered before they had a chance.

I really agree with this. McDuffie has the potential, but he didn't realise it on this run and that's because of editorial really. He was rushed in to replace JMS then when he finished the CW issue and started to doing his own stuff they announced Millar and Hitch.

You gotta feel sorry for the guy. I'm really hoping to see him back on the title one day so he can do himself justice.

Pun intended :p

[CyberCoyote]

But how wrong can you be with peoples lives and still be a hero. Clor was an abomination. The idea that it was necessary is debunked by reed himself as no individual changes history significantly, that idea is a crock anyway.

Salk, Jenner, Norman Borlaugh(sp?), Lao Tse, Buddha Mohammed and Confucious all put this to to a test, which it fails. Reed may know math but it doesn't sound like he ever opened a history book.

Silly premis but this was a good story. Glad my oldest bought it.

Late pipe in. I think what he was saying was that if any of those figures you mentioned were erased, their legacies would have been born by another. Someone else would figure out the cure to polio, another Nazi bastard would have brought them to power, etc. Now if Doom managed to stop Reed from doing it then he believes he himself would be the next in line to take the mantel of harbinger of utopia.

And the ability to CHANGE/Diverge time isn't the 4 person thing, that's his (Reed's) ability to calculate the progress of time. He can only calculate directions down to groups of Four individuals. He knows what he can acheive with his family as a whole, but not what any single one of them will do exactly.

I still loved it and will miss McDuffie. I forgot Gravity was going to be the new Captain Marvel and that stinks. I'd much rather see him joing the New/Original guardians of the Galaxy than have old Cancerman zipped through time (and how does his traveling forward in time effect these new formulas?) I'll never get over the Black Panther arm bar on Silver Surfer, some day we'll get a one line from Rad saying that the Panther put some device on him that pinned his arm for the instant before it imploded on itself and no one else saw it :) )

[mikekerr3]

Late pipe in. I think what he was saying was that if any of those figures you mentioned were erased, their legacies would have been born by another. Someone else would figure out the cure to polio, another Nazi bastard would have brought them to power, etc. Now if Doom managed to stop Reed from doing it then he believes he himself would be the next in line to take the mantel of harbinger of utopia.

And the ability to CHANGE/Diverge time isn't the 4 person thing, that's his (Reed's) ability to calculate the progress of time. He can only calculate directions down to groups of Four individuals. He knows what he can acheive with his family as a whole, but not what any single one of them will do exactly.

I still loved it and will miss McDuffie. I forgot Gravity was going to be the new Captain Marvel and that stinks. I'd much rather see him joing the New/Original guardians of the Galaxy than have old Cancerman zipped through time (and how does his traveling forward in time effect these new formulas?) I'll never get over the Black Panther arm bar on Silver Surfer, some day we'll get a one line from Rad saying that the Panther put some device on him that pinned his arm for the instant before it imploded on itself and no one else saw it :) )


One action, made in a split second during the Civil war disproves this. If Sue hadn't intervened. Reeds abomination would have ended the civil war in CW4 by killing off the Pro-regs. He tried and she stopped him. Did not that solo decision change history in a major way?

[chastmastr]

Heck, the whole concept of "one tiny change affecting everything else down the line" is a basic staple of science fiction. Somehow I doubt Marvel will no longer write those stories. Considering that this is the whole basis of the ongoing Exiles series, in fact...

But again to me the bigger issue in this situation is the unresolved Bad Reed stuff. Desperately tired of rattling it all off again, though. Which is why my present sig, "Giving up arguing about Marvel comics for Lent," is there (that's right, just four days left, and then I will at least pull back in a major way, which since I post these page-long monster screeds will be a relief for some, not to mention a relief for me -- dwelling on negativity is just plain depressing and tiring -- Marvel may have made reading most of their mainstream line a downer for me, but at least they won't have made half of my day a downer from my dwelling on it all the time!)...

David
still feels like the best capper for the FF is Mark Waid's "meeting God, given happy ending" story near the end of his run

[bulbasteve]

One action, made in a split second during the Civil war disproves this. If Sue hadn't intervened. Reeds abomination would have ended the civil war in CW4 by killing off the Pro-regs. He tried and she stopped him. Did not that solo decision change history in a major way?

I think you mean anti-regs. But this isn't really true on either level. On the one hand it could have already been history. Just because the pro-regs were trying to stop the inevitable end of the world doesn't mean that there was actually a universe where it happened.

Secondly it would be pretty easy for the third law to fix it, Clor just doesn't go crazy. Sue could have still left Reed and Goliath was hardly all that important, the pro-regs would have still won anyway so it's really a rather minor point of history.

One time line likes it, thats all that is shown.

Didn't save the mutants or stop the concentration camps (see the X-men), Cables and Bishops worlds still happened. There are infinite future time lines, he fixed one , he may have broken others. The one they sent Doom to for example. Unless you believe in predestination anything that can happen makes its own time line. Or maybe Reed just fixes that so only the time line he chooses happens. May be has a butterfly effect nullifier or something.

Reed Richards Smart but you seem to think to think he is omniscient, he can't even treat his wife fairly but you think that he can predict the action of every group on earth.

Yet this was actually this time line as future Reed said. While the two X-Men ones were two timelines that split off ages ago but Wanda still effected them and its more two examples of what the baby would bring rather than what the actual future would be. And no, there really aren't infinite future timelines as the issue just said. How could you beleive that me not posting this instead of posting this will have the power to make a whole new universe but you think Reeds science is hard to beleive, that sounds pretty dang hard to believe :p

[mikekerr3]

Heck, the whole concept of "one tiny change affecting everything else down the line" is a basic staple of science fiction. Somehow I doubt Marvel will no longer write those stories. Considering that this is the whole basis of the ongoing Exiles series, in fact...

But again to me the bigger issue in this situation is the unresolved Bad Reed stuff. Desperately tired of rattling it all off again, though. Which is why my present sig, "Giving up arguing about Marvel comics for Lent," is there (that's right, just four days left, and then I will at least pull back in a major way, which since I post these page-long monster screeds will be a relief for some, not to mention a relief for me -- dwelling on negativity is just plain depressing and tiring -- Marvel may have made reading most of their mainstream line a downer for me, but at least they won't have made half of my day a downer from my dwelling on it all the time!)...

David
still feels like the best capper for the FF is Mark Waid's "meeting God, given happy ending" story near the end of his run

The only way to get away from the negativity is to stay away from the board. Negativity and corruption are Marvels main themes now.

[Expletive Deleted]

The only way to get away from the negativity is to stay away from the board.Putting the folks who constantly wallow in and obsess over said negativity on "ignore" would work just as well, I think.

No offense intended.

[mikekerr3]

Putting the folks who constantly wallow in and obsess over said negativity on "ignore" would work just as well, I think.

No offense intended.

That would work just as well but kinda kill the discussion by dividing it in two.

It is always an option to ignore people who say what you don't want to hear.

[CyberCoyote]

One action, made in a split second during the Civil war disproves this. If Sue hadn't intervened. Reeds abomination would have ended the civil war in CW4 by killing off the Pro-regs. He tried and she stopped him. Did not that solo decision change history in a major way?

But the concept in this issue, in particular, is that if it weren't SUE who stepped in then someone ELSE would step in. Like we said, if Einstein didn't come up with the theory or relativity then someone else would. If someone killed Sue right before she could save the anti-reg folks in that scene someone else would. They aren't saying one person doesn't make the difference, just that if you try to change things it'll be a different individual. They explained that with the Lincoln analogy. You could knock John Wilkes Boothe's aim off but Lincoln would slip in the tub that night and die anyway. Time fixes itself unless the changes are too drastic. If Annihilus didn't invade the 616 then some other being would have done what he did. If Nova didn't survive the attack another being would.

[chastmastr]

Well, in my case, it's not merely arguing with people on boards, it's getting down because of the books themselves, the paths they're on, the attitude of the editors/writers in some cases, etc. I don't share the views of some people who say "OMG! I can't ever enjoy my back issues again! Marvel has now invalidated them!" as if Joe Quesada has broken into my house and burned them all. But I get depressed when I think about it. Knowing that any present storyline set in the current, mainstream MU will have this crap foisted onto it, at least in the background, even under the best writers, brings me down. The political real-world analogues to what the characters have been involved in are bad enough, and have been depressing enough, without having beloved fictional characters go right down the same path, and continue to try to justify it, and have the writers and editors apparently try to justify it -- though it's hard to be sure how serious they are, and this silly, annoying nonsense of deliberately misleading the readers in interviews has gotten incredibly old. It's not coyly amusing, it just pisses me off... Some of the writers seem to have genuine contempt for the characters they write -- when Jason Aaron says that he sees Wolverine as a "hypocrite" (http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=134916) then, for goodness' sake, give Logan to someone else, okay? It wasn't Aaron's fault that he's been retconned as being "a pretty bad guy for most of his life" -- that's the fault of another writer who's run him through the distorting funhouse mirror that Marvel has increasingly become. We're rapidly reaching a point where what's left of that character is "bub" and the claws. I'm not a Deadpool fan, but I've noticed that a whole lot of fans are aghast at how he's going to be depicted by Aaron, and --

Oh dear, there I go again. And I was going to go through the damn litany again, of Reed-Tony-Pym-Xavier-Clor-Cap-Fascism-RabidDogFrothSpittle, and oh my God I am so tired of it.

If I could (hey, maybe I'll append this to my sig in some way, if I can keep it short) summarize my position, it would really be...

(an hour or two or more passes)

... something so terrifyingly long it's had to become another thread (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?p=6278121), lest I derail this one any further. :o

Back on topic, I'd still love to know what's happened with this storyline and why he wrote it like that. I'm still baffled. I've really come to like his writing...

David

[Expletive Deleted]

... kill the discussion by dividing it in two.This discussion? I could live with that.

[Pyro]

I enjoyed the issue. I enjoyed McDuffie's run. And I liked Civil War.

This issue: I thought it was an interesting story. McDuffie has a classic story sensibility which is refreshing in today's market. Still, his concepts are really strong. Like some of this time stuff flew over my head. I don't quite understand why the current FF had to fight the future FF. I think McDuffie has done a great job repairing the damage that was done to the family in Civil War. But that isn't to say that I think the conflict in the family was done poorly. I think it was necessary and fairly well handled. It kept things interesting.

Civil War: I don't see what was so terrible about it. It was a story that made me think and continues to make me think about the philosophical and sociological effects of superheroism. Plus it had strong character moments, great art, and cool battles. There were a few things that were total crap, but I felt that the good greatly outnumbered the bad.

[chastmastr]

Okay. How about . . . he's reassessed how he's applying his theory, bringing his family on board instead of sitting alone in his number cave. He's gone from a somewhat fatalistic outlook in McDuffie's first storyline to a more optimistic outlook in this one, from ameliorating the dystopia to creating the utopia. Better?

I'm less interested in promoting a given interpretation than I am in promoting a given tone.

It may be that you're right, and that given McDuffie's situation he couldn't be expected to be able to alter Reed's situation much. I still think McDuffie's heart is in the right place -- and judging from his Justice League (both animated and the comic) I know he is not a fan of fascism. I wish he'd been able to stay on FF for a good long while, and really address things properly as well as write many more stories, but I think I am more confident now that he likely did all he could under the constraints he doubtless had.

Which is perhaps a good final note of my own here...

David