ULTIMATES vol. 3 - General Commentary

[The Master Meglomaniac]

You know the drill, the current direction for Ultimates Vol. 3 sucks, so create a better one.

Here is one idea I had:

"Dr. Elihas Starr is a SHIELD scientist who never gets any respect, due to his bald head and bookish nature, his co-workers have given the annoying nick name Egghead (which he hates and his head isn't actually shaped like an egg). His projects were always getting their funding cut and it seemed like even a wife beater like Pym got more respect at SHIELD then he did. So he starting stealing SHIELD's tech secrets and selling them to the highest bidder, which explains the rise in meta human crime and terrorism. This kind of story which allow the Ultimates to be independent, but also allow them to work with SHIELD."

[Radical_dreamer]

With so many plot points set up by Grand Theft America, it's almost unimaginable that Loeb could screw this up so badly. That doesn't just happen; it takes a commitment to the mediocre.

---------------------------------------------
Ultimates 3-- In the limelight

Having detached themselves from SHIELD, they now reside in Stark's mansion, a massive building of impeccable architecture in the very heart of downtown NYC. Now a private team, more concerned with public perception then ever, the residence's main floor has been turned into a museum, open to guided tours and glorifying the team's past accomplishments, with a massive statue of Captain America's WW2 glories erected in the entrance- leaving the time-displaced soldier feeling even more inadequate in these new times. He still maintains strong ties with SHIELD, still finding his identity with the army and helping Fury on missions behind the team's back.

Still attempting to sell the public on their privatization the team, under the advisement of their new PR consultants, have established new costumes for themselves, now resembling superheroes more than army soldiers. (There should be an explanation for the drastic design change).

Tony Stark must himself deal with allegations of holding the world under hostage with his own WMD (The Iron Man space weapon he used at the end of Vol 2) and his own deteriorating health. It is revealed in the arc that his suit is now remote-controlled as he himself is too sick to leave his room. Futurist to the end, he becomes obsessed with finding a cure, researching both mystic and alien alternatives.

As Janet is made team's spokesperson and unofficial leader (due to the perception established by Millar that she is harmless and likable), she struggles with her old insecurities and continues to visit Pym in prison as he awaits his own trial for his involvement with the attack on America.

After publicly displaying that Nordic mythology is indeed real in the Grand Theft finale, Thor has to deal with a new status of Messiah figure as hundreds of thousands, fervent believer arise all across the continent- worshiping the Nordic deity. Embracing his new status, Thor's vocalized speeches as leader of his own religion leave the rest of the team uncomfortable.

Bruce Banner himself is also staying with the Ultimates, though despite his new level of control, Stark and the others absolutely forbid him from joining any of their operations as the Hulk. Forced to use his genius behind the stage and feeling weak and helpless among all these heroes, how long can he really resist 'showing off'?

As Wanda and Pietro fully embrace their new status of public darling, they garner the wrath of Magneto, who from within his citadels, plans to return his stray children to the fold-- by any means necessary.

The New Recruits

Hawkeye is the only previous character to have NOT joined the Ultimates, staying with SHIELD as leader of his own squad of new black ops recruits (including Falcon) - a field where he brutally conveys his new dark side.

Meanwhile a damaged Vision robot (the green 'she' one) re-enters the fold, crashing the mansion and demanding a spot on Wasp's team. Receiving weak transmissions from the future she was instructed by what she deduces to be a future, more advanced version of herself to stay close to the Ultimates for the coming struggles.

Despite their internal struggles, the Ultimates (under the RP tagline of 'avenging the innocents, and protecting the helpless') shine as public figures while SHIELD continues to lose public favor, seen as having failed to prevent the attack on America.

Nick Fury sets out to establish a new team of public heroes (all their superbeings were soldiers more than 'heroes'). Pulling in Spider-Man for his required service (established in USP), publicly endorsing the Fantastic Four (though they refuse to become active members) as well as wealthy African philanthropist T'Challa and, Supremeverse ambassador Zarda.

---------------------------------------------

I'm no writer but to me this would be a more sensible take on the team, taking the first two volumes into account. :)

[prodigy]

-First, The Ultimates fire their entire PR team.


A superhero team does not need marketing. Ever. They don't need recruits. They're here to save lives and beat up the badguys. Not sell action figures and keep you up to date on what brand of tennis shoes they buy.

S.H.I.E.L.D. I could see having T.V. commercials and all that (like the US Army) but not The Ultimates. It just can't make sense.

The newspaper coverage of them saving the world is PR enough.

[Radical_dreamer]

-First, The Ultimates fire their entire PR team.


A superhero team does not need marketing. Ever. They don't need recruits. They're here to save lives and beat up the badguys. Not sell action figures and keep you up to date on what brand of tennis shoes they buy.

S.H.I.E.L.D. I could see having T.V. commercials and all that (like the US Army) but not The Ultimates. It just can't make sense.

The newspaper coverage of them saving the world is PR enough.

Recruits = new members(a staple concept to all superhero teams)

I think you may be confusing PR with advertising (which is commercials, posters, etc...) and sponsorship (backing companies and gears). After the climate established by Millar it would be ludicrous to say that how public sees them is not important. The world isn't really use to see these guys without Big Brother to keep them in check. If the public doesn't trust they're being altruistic they won't last long. The UU is a lot more complex in that sense then the 'punch a good guy and pose for the camera' ways of 616. In my opinion.

[fudgekp]

-First, The Ultimates fire their entire PR team.


A superhero team does not need marketing. Ever. They don't need recruits. They're here to save lives and beat up the badguys. Not sell action figures and keep you up to date on what brand of tennis shoes they buy.

S.H.I.E.L.D. I could see having T.V. commercials and all that (like the US Army) but not The Ultimates. It just can't make sense.

The newspaper coverage of them saving the world is PR enough.

You're also forgetting that on their team is a man who has his fingers in every business pie.

While a superhero team doesn't need marketing, a multi millionaire funding the team might, and action figures, comics and cartoons can only increase their public profile in Starks eyes.

[Vapour Trail]

That already sounds better than what we got.

I would ad this: their first mission is to capture the mastermind behind the Liberators attack as they get closer and closer each person they come to is already dead (via Hawkeye's black ops team)

Is SHILED avenging the the attack, is Hawkeye's team doing it on their own or is someone instituting a cover-up.

Are factions withing the US Government in League with the Liberators? Did they allow the attack so that SHIELD would be discredited and disbanded while the US Army would rise up and save the day?

And while the Ultimates hunt them, are they themselves in the crosshairs for spoiling the plan?

[desanth]

Ok, I'll give this a whack; I'll edit as I think of more but I have a villain in mind.

The gist of everything in issue 1:

Team has been setting up in their new base. The team is starting to feel the pain of being independent from the government. They have fines for breaking laws and lawsuits filed against them for damages done while fighting(they discuss this after a mission in a debriefing meeting, also noted Quicksilver and SW still work for the government and not with the Ultimates). Seems that they have been shutting down projects around the world(US included) that are doing now illegal superhuman projects. Tony mentions that they have to be careful about the toes they step on. Ultron robot butlers are present during this meeting.

Pym is still jailed in the Triskelion, but Jan visits him; he talks about how unfair that Banner gets to walk free while he is jailed there and that he can still redeem himself if others give him the chance. He gave them all the information he had on the Liberators and his suppliers for the Ultron robots(since there were so many of them, instead of being decommissioned, they were reprogrammed and now help at alot of places) but that turned out to be very little. Jan wants to know more because she thinks they are likely to be a threat and have supersoldier projects they need to stop.

Banner is in a lab at an undisclosed location working on Captain Middle Eastern (what's his name?); he is having a Ultron robot help take notes. Banner thinks that he might be on the verge of figuring out how to stabilize his Hulk powers(this is all contingent on what happens in Ultimate Human really, so eh...)

Captain America is hanging out with Thor and talking about Jan. Jan now leads the Ultimates and Cap is feeling insecure since he comes from a 40s world and its real odd to him. Thor mentions that women nowadays are leaders(throw in a bit of politico having to do with Clinton running for prez). Thor then reveals about his own girl(Ultimates 2, the one chick, I'm not sticking to this I gotta check if she was a recurring girl, but she was leader of Thor believers). Conversation ends when Jan comes in to tell them they have a meeting.

Everyone goes to the meeting where they reveal that the next target that is conducting illegal superhuman projects is.. The Triskelion!

EDIT:
I'd stretch out these events to three issues(to follow stroke with the vol1&2 structure), add in Hawkeye death closure/restructuring, Nick Fury(or Carol Danvers) restructuring the superhero team that the Triskelion has(includes Mar Vehl, Falcon, Vision, SW, Quicksilver plus maybe one or two more, BP?, maybe Banner, +giant men&lower stat ironmen), Tony Stark dating, PR for Ultimates.
For this thread, should we consider Ultimate Power to be canon and if so, should we ignore Thor's language and the doombot? I thought those were stupid things, in fact most of UP was stupid.

[prodigy]

If the public doesn't trust they're being altruistic they won't last long.
The public doesn't have reality-altering powers. If they don't like the Ultimates how are they gonna make them disband? Voting?

They're not SHILED-backed anymore.


And for them to sit and say "Well guys. The public doesn't trust us. Let's break up." would be the sloppiest piece of dumbass writing in the world.

After the climate established by Millar it would be ludicrous to say that how public sees them is not important.

Oh hell no. Hell hell hell no. Let's be sensible. The way the public views them seriously DOESN'T matter. The Ultimates are not running for government. The Ultimates beat up the badguys... Not try and get you to like them and convince you to vote for them for class president. That's not what they're there for.

[Radical_dreamer]

The public doesn't have reality-altering powers. If they don't like the Ultimates how are they gonna make them disband? Voting?

They're not SHILED-backed anymore.


And for them to sit and say "Well guys. The public doesn't trust us. Let's break up." would be the sloppiest piece of dumbass writing in the world.



Oh hell no. Hell hell hell no. Let's be sensible. The way the public views them seriously DOESN'T matter. The Ultimates are not running for government. The Ultimates beat up the badguys... Not try and get you to like them and convince you to vote for them for class president. That's not what they're there for.

Wow.

It's obvious we don't have the same take on the Ultimates then. I'm almost wondering if we read the same first two volumes. You must be enjoying Loeb's errm, let's call it "standard" take a lot more than I am then. Regardless, to each his own. :D

Desanth, I really like your idea of having the private team hindered by fines and regulations. Sort of reminds me of the Seinfeld joke where people complain about Superman crashing through their walls to save them instead of using the door.

Why would you have SW and QS still with the government though? I'm curious.

[desanth]

Wow.

It's obvious we don't have the same take on the Ultimates then. I'm almost wondering if we read the same first two volumes. You must be enjoying Loeb's errm, let's call it "standard" take a lot more than I am then. Regardless, to each his own. :D

Desanth, I really like your idea of having the private team hindered by fines and regulations. Sort of reminds me of the Seinfeld joke where people complain about Superman crashing through their walls to save them instead of using the door.

Why would you have SW and QS still with the government though? I'm curious.

I always had the notion that SW and QS were in the Ultimates not because they wanted to be part of the Ultimates but had nowhere else to go. Plus they'd be forgiven for past crimes etc. Also, in Vol 2, they were apathetic and airy towards everything, only QS was passionate when SW was in trouble or Hawkeye was getting Hurricaned. So they wouldn't care too much about working for the Ultimates. There are more points to consider, but overall for the sake of the quality of the story, its best that QS and SW aren't main components of the Ultimates.

[prodigy]

You must be enjoying Loeb's errm, let's call it "standard" take a lot more than I am then.
Them's fightin' words.

[Omega Alpha]

The public doesn't have reality-altering powers. If they don't like the Ultimates how are they gonna make them disband? Voting?

They're not SHILED-backed anymore

And for them to sit and say "Well guys. The public doesn't trust us. Let's break up." would be the sloppiest piece of dumbass writing in the world.

You're absolutely correct. You see, the public doesn't like the X-men (or mutants in general), and is not like anything bad has ever happened to them, like say, politicians with promises to register or kill them being elected, the government building killing robots to murder them all, religious nutjobs trying to wipe them out of existence, etc. Because when you're fighting, say, Ultron in the middle of New York, it can never be a bad thing for the public not knowing if the bad guy is the robotic killing machine or you.

[ThePhenom]

The public doesn't have reality-altering powers. If they don't like the Ultimates how are they gonna make them disband? Voting?

Well one would assume that if the Ultimates got out of line then SHIELD would be precisely the organisation to take them down, they still have to follow laws and such, if even for their pretty fine-tuned personal moral compasses.

And for them to sit and say "Well guys. The public doesn't trust us. Let's break up." would be the sloppiest piece of dumbass writing in the world.

Public perception is huge in celebrity portrayals and such, enough personal and ethical shots at the Ultimates seems like it could tear them apart easily. Note: Banner's constant need for validation and lack of getting it, the combination of Wasp's grief from Pym's beating and the media coverage making her want to leave to Germany, media leaks causing Banner's reveal as the Hulk, Quiksilver and Scarlet Witch's original role as shadow agents due to their criminal past, each member's lack of legal immunity, etc. etc. etc.

Oh hell no. Hell hell hell no. Let's be sensible. The way the public views them seriously DOESN'T matter. The Ultimates are not running for government. The Ultimates beat up the badguys... Not try and get you to like them and convince you to vote for them for class president. That's not what they're there for.

The UU generally seems to attempt to take a more realistic step, the dual views of this exact concept took part in Civil War in 616, seems illogical for it to take even further steps away from realism as it goes...

[ThePhenom]

Couldn't help myself.

---

Issue 1: "A New Name"

Six Months Later.

The issue begins with Captain America talking to the new head of SHIELD Carol Danvers, they are clearly in a formal meeting and Danvers is asking him to reconsider joining the government again. Cap stands his ground and speaks on the behalf of the Ultimates stating that 'no' they won't join again citing the reasons given at the end of Volume 2.

Carol continues on talking about what she had heard in the news and tabloids, and how the team seems to be gradually "disassembling" as of late, putting it to Cap that it may be the wiser choice. Cap goes on about each member from Vol. 2 saying that Hawkeye is doing fine now (a panel of Hawkeye grieving at his family's plots), Stark is still the cheery ladies man he was (Stark in chemo), Wasp is happy with him (Wasp meeting up with Pym), Thor is still doing his own thing (Thor with a non-powered Valkyrie, somewhere in the remote mountains) and Pietro/Wanda are fitting in better than ever (shot of them discreetly at Stryfe's mutant rally).

Danvers: Well if you won't reconsider I have one final question, what's all this talk of a new name?

The Ultimates (notably absent are Thor, Hawkeye and Wanda/Pietro) are in the Stark building, their current headquarters, a completed version of what was being constructed in the end of the second volume. Cap is discussing the offer that Danvers put on the table while the Ultimates mull it over, noting that they hadn't done that much more for the world since leaving SHIELD. Each look thoughtful, indicating that they are each considering the perks of joining again. Cap looks offended than anyone would consider and leaves awkwardly.

Wanda and Pietro leave the mutant rally, Quiksilver notes his feelings of alienation from the mutant community and without a solid income and their crimes absolved from their records whether it's really that beneficial to stay with the Ultimates. Wanda gets into dispute clearly showing they had developed some sense of camaraderie as they begin to argue and she leaves angrily.

The next shot sees Sam Wilson accompanying Cap to the same graveyard all his friends are buried at, they talk and it becomes clear that Falcon and Cap are relatively close friends now. They see Hawkeye in the distance at his family's plots. Hawkeye tells them that this is all he really does now, and doesn't really care about the "righteous fight" anymore as it had not lead him to any place he wanted to be. Cap consols him saying that many of the graves that surrounded them were friends of him back in the 1940s. Hawkeye looks at Cap admiringly.

Janet is visiting Pym at his apartment, he is working on Vision, and Janet looks to be impressed as most of their issues at this stage had subsided. Pym asks about Steve and Janet says it just isn't working anymore and that Cap would rather spend time with Falcon than her at this stage. Their conversation is interuppted by a knock on the door and standing there is Wanda. She asks if Vision may accompany her on a day out, confused but intrigued Pym says yes and Vision leaves with Wanda.

Pietro is shown calling Wanda, she rejects the call and the next shot shows that Pietro was in range of Wanda and saw that happen. Wanda screams again about how controlling he is and goes into the Museum of Industrial Design with Vision. Cap is then shown trying to call Wasp, not finding her at HQ, or her apartment, he knocks on Pym's door and is greeted by Pym scantily clad with Wasp walking out in practically nothing. He leaves.

Cap returns to HQ, finding that Quiksilver is packing up anything he had left there, he enquires and Quiksilver explains, Hawkeye enters too with the same intention saying that his lack of fulfilment may be coming from the fact they are just lounging about. The three men look around, each discontented and unhappy with the current arrangements.

Iron Man enters HQ and finds that no one is still there, seeing that Cap, Quiksilver and Hawkeye's uniforms are gone, soon Wasp enters hand in hand with Pym, as do Scarlet Witch and Vision, all seeing the cause of Stark's confusion.

The scene is once more between Cap and Danvers, he looks reluctant but grits his teeth and tells her that she has at least four Ultimates back in the fray. Tony gets a fax from Danvers about how the offer for those remaining has expired, he looks absolutely nonplussed and looks at the remainder of his team.

Stark: I'm tired of New York. How's this for a name: The Ultimates, West Coast Initiative?

The last panel shows the door to the HQ, Thor stands outside it entering.

Thor: What do you think about this as a new name Tony?

Thor looks confused, the room is dark and barren. He picks up a post-it. He looks somewhat dissappointed.

Thor: The Avengers. *sigh*

A close-up of the note shows the word "Disassembled" written across it.

[desanth]

I was thinking about the 616 West Coast Avengers idea, but I didn't know anything about them so I wouldn't even try to Ultimize it. Nice to get back on track though :D

[Green05]

I was thinking about the 616 West Coast Avengers idea, but I didn't know anything about them so I wouldn't even try to Ultimize it. Nice to get back on track though :D


That would be a great idea to have another Ultimates team elsewhere. They can't be everywhere at once. lol. War Machine can be the team leader, Zarda can be part of the group to see how independent they are from Shield after Ultimate Power, Falcon can be there to make sure she doesn't go crazy, the Vision, and introduce Mockingbird as a former military officer or protégé that worked with Hawkeye before he was assigned to Ultimates black-ops.

[Josef F.]

I re-read ultimates 2 last night.
The end line.
"I'll be waiting for you, We both will"
anyone else see that as "Captain America has a secret child"
Or am i just looking for ANYTHING better than ultimates 3?

[desanth]

I re-read ultimates 2 last night.
The end line.
"I'll be waiting for you, We both will"
anyone else see that as "Captain America has a secret child"
Or am i just looking for ANYTHING better than ultimates 3?

Wait, are you saying that BP is Cap's bastard child? Wow, a theory I never heard before! :eek:

[desanth]

Oops, triple mispost.

[desanth]

Oops, triple mispost.

[desanth]

Oops, triple mispost.

[JonniRandom]

So earlier, I posted a thread saying basically:
':smile: Is Ultimates 3 Any Good?:cool: '
And the majority of the responses were negative toward this rekindling of the Ultimates and there was plenty of hate for almost all the points of the series!

SO therefore....

What ought to have happened after Ultimates 2?

[ThePhenom]

The SHIELD breakaway was a fine plotpoint, I think Danvers attempting to get them back or make some form of substitute team as a sidestory would've been interesting, the Ultimates conflict on their direction as any storyline.

Generally, since they found very little to do as part of the government I think that would be just as prominent, taking down crime rings and really trying to branch out of NY would've made this a perfect read for me.

[Guest_1001]

Well for one, I'd like to see Tony Stark's brain tumor start to take effect, and perhaps Tony feeling embarrassed, guilty or ashamed that he could be used so easily (to Tony, at least; he didn't know the full story) by Pete Wisdom in Ultimate Human. Thus, somewhere along the way, some genius (Banner is my pick, since they went through it together) comes up with the idea of building a new, better armour so it doesn't happen again.

Meanwhile, Pym is on trial for treason, conspiracy and all sorts of other major-sounding crimes. As a shock to all, he is found not guilty on all charges thanks to Jan willing to vouch that he helped them in the battle against the Liberators (as well as wiping out the ground units with his Ultron robots, he also gave Jan the growth serum). Despite Pym being released, nobody wants him anymore, which Pym expected but also leaves Jan in a difficult position. She'll presumably give some "can't help who you love" speech and then they'll go it alone.

I haven't worked this all out yet but this could be a good opportunity for Ultimate Red Skull. Pretty much the same deal as the 616 version only he and Cap have never met. Red Skull's on all the Nazi propaganda posters and on flags in Berlin and Cap is on all of the Allies' wartime footage, so their reputations precede them (which would be good for when they finally did meet). Cap himself presumes he's a myth ("he doesn't exist Buck, he's just some random guy in a mask they put on posters to scare people into following their damn rules"). The problem though is that the Skull would have to presumably intentionally freeze himself to go to the future because surely he and Cap both being frozen unintentionally and thawed around the same time would be a huge coincidence. As to why he'd freeze himself while it would appear Captain America is missing (after he was frozen, of course) is anyone's guess.

I've gone into this way more than I thought I would but just one more thing; picture the Red Skull rallying a few modern Nazis and White Supremacists together and taking James Braddock hostage. Braddock is forced to make European Defense Initiative suits with some upgrades, which the Skull then puts onto his followers. And this leads to? . . . Ultimate Master Men. Fair enough, it'd pretty much be the same as the Liberators' basic grunts but hey, they'd be real characters this time and hopefully not just cannon fodder.

I've skimmed over a lot of stuff (Hawkeye, Thor) and gone into too much detail with other stuff. Ah well . . .

[desanth]

There was a thread a while back(I mighta created it, I forget) where the idea was to put write down the jist of your own Ultimates 3. Suffice it to say, many were better than what Loeb has done.

[Pedrocas]

Anything's better than that crapfest Loeb's doing.

[dreyga2000]

An organized religion worshipping Thor and the Norse Gods starts picking up momentum..... Thor becomes the norse-superhero equivaqlent to the Pope toa large mass of followers

[Scorpion13]

Well, I had an idea were somehow Dr. Strange would have a vision where the Ultimates would found a totalitarian regime in the not to distant future, since they are the most powerful group of superheroes in the world. Strange would then be tasked with creating another team to counterbalance the Ultimates...The Defenders.

While the Ultimates begin to rebuild after the Loki debacle, Strange would begin to search out the "superhero" team (they were named specifically in the vision), and a substantial part of the storyline would be Strange trying to empower the Defenders, who would be revealed to have the potential to be powerful superhumans. Finally, it would be revealed that the whole thing was a plan by the newly introduced Ultimate Dormamu (not after a large battle, of course, with the Ultimates).

Dormammu, it would be revealed, would be the Sorceror Supreme of his version of an alternate dimension Earth, only he is much older than Strange. He failed in his duties, however, and an entity named Shuma Gorath was able to break through into his dimension for a few minutes. Dormammu stopped him, but it left his Earth a bleak, demon haunted wasteland, where he was the only survivor, but strong enough to impose his rule over the planet. He wanted to start over again with a healthy, untainted world, and he knew that if he tried to invade with his army of abominations, the Ultimates would be the ones to rally the forces of Earth enough to force them back. After a battle in which Strange manages to force Dormammu back with a spell, the Ultimates and Defenders come to an uneasy truce, with the Defenders agreeing to break up and go their own ways.

However, although the message was false, Strange thinks the idea of the message was valid, that having that much power in the hands of such a small group of individuals is tempting fate, so secretly, the Defenders still meet, to take on threats that, while no less dangerous than what the Ultimates deal with, are almost totally unknown by the public at large. At the end, Strange is met by a mysterious figure: Bruce Banner, who tells him that if they ever do decide to take down the Ultimates, he will be there to help them. Stunned, Strange asks them why he would turn against his teammates. Banner tells him that he wouldnt even exsist if the government wasnt pushing so hard for supersoldiers, and that while him being the Hulk is his own fault, the chances are that it could happen all over again easily because of the arms race for metahuman soldiers. That race is only just beginning.

Anyways, that was my idea. I thought it would be interesting.

[Wild Card13]

Well, I had an idea were somehow Dr. Strange would have a vision where the Ultimates would found a totalitarian regime in the not to distant future, since they are the most powerful group of superheroes in the world. Strange would then be tasked with creating another team to counterbalance the Ultimates...The Defenders.

While the Ultimates begin to rebuild after the Loki debacle, Strange would begin to search out the "superhero" team (they were named specifically in the vision), and a substantial part of the storyline would be Strange trying to empower the Defenders, who would be revealed to have the potential to be powerful superhumans. Finally, it would be revealed that the whole thing was a plan by the newly introduced Ultimate Dormamu (not after a large battle, of course, with the Ultimates).

Dormammu, it would be revealed, would be the Sorceror Supreme of his version of an alternate dimension Earth, only he is much older than Strange. He failed in his duties, however, and an entity named Shuma Gorath was able to break through into his dimension for a few minutes. Dormammu stopped him, but it left his Earth a bleak, demon haunted wasteland, where he was the only survivor, but strong enough to impose his rule over the planet. He wanted to start over again with a healthy, untainted world, and he knew that if he tried to invade with his army of abominations, the Ultimates would be the ones to rally the forces of Earth enough to force them back. After a battle in which Strange manages to force Dormammu back with a spell, the Ultimates and Defenders come to an uneasy truce, with the Defenders agreeing to break up and go their own ways.

However, although the message was false, Strange thinks the idea of the message was valid, that having that much power in the hands of such a small group of individuals is tempting fate, so secretly, the Defenders still meet, to take on threats that, while no less dangerous than what the Ultimates deal with, are almost totally unknown by the public at large. At the end, Strange is met by a mysterious figure: Bruce Banner, who tells him that if they ever do decide to take down the Ultimates, he will be there to help them. Stunned, Strange asks them why he would turn against his teammates. Banner tells him that he wouldnt even exsist if the government wasnt pushing so hard for supersoldiers, and that while him being the Hulk is his own fault, the chances are that it could happen all over again easily because of the arms race for metahuman soldiers. That race is only just beginning.

Anyways, that was my idea. I thought it would be interesting.

It's a good idea, but I don't think it's suitable to be Ultimates 3. It seems like it should be an Ultimate Defenders mini running concurrently with Ultimates 3, while Ultimates 3 would be displaying some of the things Strange would be afraid of.

[datriadx18]

Anything apart from what's going on in Ultimated 3 right now. Because to be honest, the U3 story is all over the place at the moment.

[JonniRandom]

Well, I had an idea were somehow Dr. Strange would have a vision where the Ultimates would found a totalitarian regime in the not to distant future, since they are the most powerful group of superheroes in the world. Strange would then be tasked with creating another team to counterbalance the Ultimates...The Defenders.

While the Ultimates begin to rebuild after the Loki debacle, Strange would begin to search out the "superhero" team (they were named specifically in the vision), and a substantial part of the storyline would be Strange trying to empower the Defenders, who would be revealed to have the potential to be powerful superhumans. Finally, it would be revealed that the whole thing was a plan by the newly introduced Ultimate Dormamu (not after a large battle, of course, with the Ultimates).

Dormammu, it would be revealed, would be the Sorceror Supreme of his version of an alternate dimension Earth, only he is much older than Strange. He failed in his duties, however, and an entity named Shuma Gorath was able to break through into his dimension for a few minutes. Dormammu stopped him, but it left his Earth a bleak, demon haunted wasteland, where he was the only survivor, but strong enough to impose his rule over the planet. He wanted to start over again with a healthy, untainted world, and he knew that if he tried to invade with his army of abominations, the Ultimates would be the ones to rally the forces of Earth enough to force them back. After a battle in which Strange manages to force Dormammu back with a spell, the Ultimates and Defenders come to an uneasy truce, with the Defenders agreeing to break up and go their own ways.

However, although the message was false, Strange thinks the idea of the message was valid, that having that much power in the hands of such a small group of individuals is tempting fate, so secretly, the Defenders still meet, to take on threats that, while no less dangerous than what the Ultimates deal with, are almost totally unknown by the public at large. At the end, Strange is met by a mysterious figure: Bruce Banner, who tells him that if they ever do decide to take down the Ultimates, he will be there to help them. Stunned, Strange asks them why he would turn against his teammates. Banner tells him that he wouldnt even exsist if the government wasnt pushing so hard for supersoldiers, and that while him being the Hulk is his own fault, the chances are that it could happen all over again easily because of the arms race for metahuman soldiers. That race is only just beginning.

Anyways, that was my idea. I thought it would be interesting.

I think it would be a seperate mini-
BUT, who would be in the defenders?

[fudgekp]

I would have the Avengers showing more of an independent stance - much like the Authority were after Jenny Sparks died. This would cause a lot of friction (Ultimates saving third world countries while the US is being attacked by the sinister six again, for example)

The Us would begin the process of putting together a new US owned superhero team, probably including Spiderman, Hank pym and a new, pym created Vision robot that constantly belittles him, A 'new' captain america, which would be the ultimate US Agent, and Carol Danvers, who would be nano enhanced like black widow. They'd be desperately trying to keep the US safe in the face of new threats, and not knowing whether the old Ultimates are going to be able to help them or not every tim theres a crisis. The new Ultimates get the Wasp, who despite Captain Americas protests, gets back with Hank.

The USA Ultimates get dispatched to defend the country against mutant terrorists that have escaped a prison - they're ordered to kill on sight. What they don't realise is that these terrorists are actually a team of mutants that escaped from a resurrected weapon x program. The old Ultimates know this, being told by an unknown source, and go to save these mutants at the request of quiksilver and Scarlet witch. A battle begins between the old and new Ultimates, with Hulk being downed immediately by a new shield tech bullet, and Thor fighting a superhumanly strong genetic human clone of himself called Hercules 7. Cap fights US agent, while Iron man takes on the new vision. Hawkeye fights Pym and Carol, while wasp leaves the field, unwilling to fight anyone. Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch break off to find the mutants in order to save them - not realising that it was them that had been decieved all along. The Unknown source was in face the Ultimate version of Morph, member of the brotherhood of mutants!

The mutants that escaped were being held to protect the country, and are some of the most evil, violent mutants known. Spiderman finds the Maximoffs, but their combined might isn't enough to take on the mutant convicts. The Old and new ultimates, all nearly completly drained, finally realise who's wrong, and combine to beat the mutants. Once the dust has settled, and the mutants are all defeated, the two teams of Ultimates part ways, with Hawkeye joining the new ultimates once again, and Banner being taken into a cell due to him still being dangerous. Iron man, Captain America and Thor are granted pardons, and are tasked with putting together a worldwide superhero task force owned by the United Nations, while Quicksilver and Scarlet witch decide to join the X - Men at Fury's request.

[datriadx18]

maybe have Loeb off the book... if I was Marvel Editor or whatever I'd call him up one day and this would be our conversation:
Me: Hey Jeph
Loeb: yeah... hello?
Me: Yeah, gonna cut straight to the point here... your ongoing book, the Ultimates? I've been reading it and I think your plot is well, balls.
Loeb: What?
Me: You heard me. It's ass. You've, like, taken a really good concept and puked all over it.
Loeb: Are you talking to me? I'm Jeph friggin Loeb goddamit! I worked on Smallville, my work on 'Lost' is making it one of the top rated shows in modern TV... you can't fire me!
Me: Past work notwithstanding, your work on the Ultimates is balls, and has destroyed the foundation of one of our most prestigious titles. The Ultimates isn't Lost, readers want coherent plot as opposed to random crap happening without explanation.
Loeb: I'm Jeph Loeb... Jeph friggin Loeb! You can't...
*CLICK*
Loeb: Hello? Hello?

[Scorpion13]

I think it would be a seperate mini-
BUT, who would be in the defenders?

The same people who were in the Defenders in Ultimates 2. They would get their powers from various sources, like, the Black Knight would be reveal to actually be a descendant from the real original Black Knight, and Strange would help him get the Ebon Blade and whatnot, and Son of Satan would be revealed to be the son of a powerful black magician who actually is half devil. I thought it might be more interesting to do that instead of Valkrie just showing up with powers with no backstory and stuff.

Wildcard: That is a good point, but I was trying to go with an idea for an alternate U3 with this, but I guess you cant really have a Ultimates series with the Ultimates themselves just in the backround.

[Scorpion13]

See, look at this.

Not even counting mine, we have, what, 4 new idea for stories that are way the hell better than what we're getting with the new Ultimates.

Man, this is disappointing.

[ThePhenom]

I would have the Avengers showing more of an independent stance - much like the Authority were after Jenny Sparks died. This would cause a lot of friction (Ultimates saving third world countries while the US is being attacked by the sinister six again, for example)

Damn you! I just started Stormwatch... :evilsmile:

I knew she left the Authority but :eek:.

[Scorpion13]

Damn you! I just started Stormwatch... :evilsmile:

I knew she left the Authority but :eek:.

I know how you feel, but, as Penny Arcade pointed out, theres a statute of limitations on this kind of stuff. I mean, hasnt it been out for 10 years already? At least?

[Blader5489]

I know how you feel, but, as Penny Arcade pointed out, theres a statute of limitations on this kind of stuff. I mean, hasnt it been out for 10 years already? At least?

Dammit, I just started reading The Authority!

(I never really liked her anyway.)

[Scorpion13]

Well, enjoy it while it lasts, cuz when Millar gets on the thing, it turns into a self-congratulatory crapfest.

[carabas]

And once Millar gets off it, it deteriorates into JLA-Lite.

[Hypestyle]

growl... I'm furious with how the black panther was treated like a rag doll by Venom.. I want him to return with a full complement of fists and knockout blows to give, suge knight style...

[Scorpion13]

And once Millar gets off it, it deteriorates into JLA-Lite.

That is when its not descending into myriad grotesque incidents. Seriously, people are raped, murdered and tortured in the most horrible ways, all in a futile attempt to make the thing seem more mature. Needless to say, they miss the whole point of Ellis's story. Even Millar's (who, BTW, is no nearly as good on this as he was on Ultimates and UX-men) writing looks subtle and nuanced to this crap.

[hunter_peterson]

I would focus on the emancipation from the government, and on Hank's crimes. Banner would be forced to hide from the public and work for the government covertly, otherwise he's back in the cage. He and Hank were previously established as friends, so I'd focus on that. Hawkeye would be more depressed than psycho, Tony would only have twinges of sadness about Natasha (more about Jarvis), and Cap would struggle with not being officially tied to the country he wants to serve. Wasp would be unsure of where her affections lie. The twins would stay with the govermant, they only were there for prisoner release. Thor's little religion will gain followers.

Now that that's out of the way; the plot. Basically the Ultimates would be liked even more, especially Tony. Hank's betrayal is being covered up, as well as the involvement of Banner, they say it's a new Hulk. Hank is working closely with him on super-soldier research, the Vision project going well. Banner is in particular interested in the scavenged remains of the Abomination and the Colonel. Hank is more into the Dynamo and his drones. Danvers is pressuring them to make new supersoldiers, as the Ultimates are less reliable.

Frictions within the team are starting to make them drift apart, but also the lack of a professional bond is doing the same. they are trying to be more globally active, stopping all sorts of tomfoolery. While out on a public relations meeting (on TV) with the EDI they are mysteriously suicide bombed by a cult called The Red Skulls (but in German, and the bomber is like the Schizoid Man, but with bombs) which makes cryptic comments about how "it's going to happen again... your country will be invaded from within..." (or something) This leads the Ultimates to be paranoid, attacking several corporations and organisations in the US that they suspect of doing ANYTHING that might lean towards that end. They eventually realise that SHEILD is the most likely offender, and prepare to strike. Cap won't stand for this and leaves.

Then Cap goes back to SHEILD, the Ultimates attack and Banner Hulk's out after being clubbed by a soldier who was secretly a Red Skull. Hank is kidnapped, and immediately assumed to have collaborated. All of the Liberators reverse-engineered stuff, and the Vision (the awsome one they were working on) is taken. SHEILD and the Ultimates join forces after some leads (high-tech terrorism) come up. They storm the baddies, only to find that Stern has used the altered Hulk/Abomination formlula, as well as some sloppily engineered Giant/Ant Man serum from Hank's blood. These interact to create a strange being (he's called a Madman by Tony). a large fight ensues, with many slightly-powered grunts (a couple unique ones) and the Madman, who eventually throws Tony into the Vision, damaging it. Eventually the Madman is knocked out. The Hulk tries to eat him, but he's inedible. Later when cleaning up, he's nowhere to be found.

Hank is found in a cell, and is promptly blamed. Wasp beleives him, but she's the only one. And in a storage room, the Vision powers up and seems to be as individual as the first one.

[SCHUNK]

How's this: The Ultimates get brainwashed or hypnotized by some super-villain that can do that (take your pick- there's about a million) and try to take over New York. they get stopped or fought with by Spider man, the X-men, The FF, SHIELD, you name it. sort of an "Ultimates vs. Ultimate Universe" deal. At the end, of course, Nick Fury or whoever would erase the hypnotism or whatnot and they'd all get together in one happy super-family to kick the sh!t out of whatever villain put them up to it.

[SCHUNK]

They eventually realise that SHEILD is the most likely offender, and prepare to strike. Cap won't stand for this and leaves.

Then Cap goes back to SHEILD, the Ultimates attack and Banner Hulk's out after being clubbed by a soldier who was secretly a Red Skull. Hank is kidnapped, and immediately assumed to have collaborated. All of the Liberators reverse-engineered stuff, and the Vision (the awsome one they were working on) is taken. SHEILD and the Ultimates join forces after some leads (high-tech terrorism) come up. They storm the baddies, only to find that Stern has used the altered Hulk/Abomination formlula, as well as some sloppily engineered Giant/Ant Man serum from Hank's blood. These interact to create a strange being (he's called a Madman by Tony). a large fight ensues, with many slightly-powered grunts (a couple unique ones) and the Madman, who eventually throws Tony into the Vision, damaging it. Eventually the Madman is knocked out. The Hulk tries to eat him, but he's inedible. Later when cleaning up, he's nowhere to be found.

Hank is found in a cell, and is promptly blamed. Wasp beleives him, but she's the only one. And in a storage room, the Vision powers up and seems to be as individual as the first one.

repeat after me: i before e except after c...

sorry. I just freak out over too many gross spelling mistakes. It's a fatal flaw.

[Titanium]

I would have done the Ultimates trying to bring down a terrorist cell inside America, A.I.M. Having to go at it without SHIELD backing them up, being just a bunch of super heroes with no real authority and AIM hiding behind cover companies and legal mumbo jumbo.

The big fight would be Super-Adaptoid. AIM would use the Adaptoid to set the Ultimates up to be taken down by SHIELD. It would make it seem like the big guns of the Ultimates were losing control of their powers and refused to cooperate with authorities. Maybe even through in a huge lawsuit with Stark and the cover companies.

SHIELD would have a back up superhuman team in place. Operation: Thunderbolt. But with a limited supply of heroes, they use new Giant-Man serum based marines, Goliath, Atlas, and Yellowjacket, the shrinker. And rehabilitating supervillains, the Sandman and the Beetle. Hawkeye, still an agent of SHIELD but reckless and even more dangerous with his family dead. Lead by the closest attempt to recreate Captain America SHIELD has, Citizen V.

Opertain: Thunderbolt would be ravaged by the Adaptoid and the real Ultimates would have to save the day and clear their names.

I would throw in a handful of new Ultimates. Hercules, Wonder Man, and the Ultron and Vision robots. Pym as Ant-Man, controlling his robots. The trick to beating the Adaptoid would be Ultron and Vision hacking into it and Ultron essentially taking over the adaptoid.

Hercules being the real god Hercules, sent by the Olympians to earth since Thor is walking around making people believe in the norse gods again. Always at odds with Thor because of it.

Wonder Man being a natural superman. He has super strength, speed, flight, senses, and invulnerability. But at the same time his powers are evolving throughout the story giving him energy blast abilities.

The Ultron and Vision robots slowly gaining their own personalities, Ultron becoming more agressive war machine while vision becomes a pacifist lover of all life.

[hunter_peterson]

Well godamn it. I didn't even notice I'd done that.

[Frank]

Couldn't help myself.

---

Issue 1: "A New Name"



The issue begins with Captain America talking to the new head of SHIELD Carol Danvers, they are clearly in a formal meeting and Danvers is asking him to reconsider joining the government again. Cap stands his ground and speaks on the behalf of the Ultimates stating that 'no' they won't join again citing the reasons given at the end of Volume 2.

Carol continues on talking about what she had heard in the news and tabloids, and how the team seems to be gradually "disassembling" as of late, putting it to Cap that it may be the wiser choice. Cap goes on about each member from Vol. 2 saying that Hawkeye is doing fine now (a panel of Hawkeye grieving at his family's plots), Stark is still the cheery ladies man he was (Stark in chemo), Wasp is happy with him (Wasp meeting up with Pym), Thor is still doing his own thing (Thor with a non-powered Valkyrie, somewhere in the remote mountains) and Pietro/Wanda are fitting in better than ever (shot of them discreetly at Stryfe's mutant rally).



The Ultimates (notably absent are Thor, Hawkeye and Wanda/Pietro) are in the Stark building, their current headquarters, a completed version of what was being constructed in the end of the second volume. Cap is discussing the offer that Danvers put on the table while the Ultimates mull it over, noting that they hadn't done that much more for the world since leaving SHIELD. Each look thoughtful, indicating that they are each considering the perks of joining again. Cap looks offended than anyone would consider and leaves awkwardly.

Wanda and Pietro leave the mutant rally, Quiksilver notes his feelings of alienation from the mutant community and without a solid income and their crimes absolved from their records whether it's really that beneficial to stay with the Ultimates. Wanda gets into dispute clearly showing they had developed some sense of camaraderie as they begin to argue and she leaves angrily.

The next shot sees Sam Wilson accompanying Cap to the same graveyard all his friends are buried at, they talk and it becomes clear that Falcon and Cap are relatively close friends now. They see Hawkeye in the distance at his family's plots. Hawkeye tells them that this is all he really does now, and doesn't really care about the "righteous fight" anymore as it had not lead him to any place he wanted to be. Cap consols him saying that many of the graves that surrounded them were friends of him back in the 1940s. Hawkeye looks at Cap admiringly.

Janet is visiting Pym at his apartment, he is working on Vision, and Janet looks to be impressed as most of their issues at this stage had subsided. Pym asks about Steve and Janet says it just isn't working anymore and that Cap would rather spend time with Falcon than her at this stage. Their conversation is interuppted by a knock on the door and standing there is Wanda. She asks if Vision may accompany her on a day out, confused but intrigued Pym says yes and Vision leaves with Wanda.

Pietro is shown calling Wanda, she rejects the call and the next shot shows that Pietro was in range of Wanda and saw that happen. Wanda screams again about how controlling he is and goes into the Museum of Industrial Design with Vision. Cap is then shown trying to call Wasp, not finding her at HQ, or her apartment, he knocks on Pym's door and is greeted by Pym scantily clad with Wasp walking out in practically nothing. He leaves.

Cap returns to HQ, finding that Quiksilver is packing up anything he had left there, he enquires and Quiksilver explains, Hawkeye enters too with the same intention saying that his lack of fulfilment may be coming from the fact they are just lounging about. The three men look around, each discontented and unhappy with the current arrangements.

Iron Man enters HQ and finds that no one is still there, seeing that Cap, Quiksilver and Hawkeye's uniforms are gone, soon Wasp enters hand in hand with Pym, as do Scarlet Witch and Vision, all seeing the cause of Stark's confusion.

The scene is once more between Cap and Danvers, he looks reluctant but grits his teeth and tells her that she has at least four Ultimates back in the fray. Tony gets a fax from Danvers about how the offer for those remaining has expired, he looks absolutely nonplussed and looks at the remainder of his team.



The last panel shows the door to the HQ, Thor stands outside it entering.



Thor looks confused, the room is dark and barren. He picks up a post-it. He looks somewhat dissappointed.



A close-up of the note shows the word "Disassembled" written across it.


Most of all of it was pretty great. But instead of the left turn of the last phrase and saying "i'm tired of New york, let's go to LA". Why not use the great scene of having Wasp/Pym and Wanda/Vision entering, as a launching pad for a new generation? The other guys are depressed, they quit. Then four other comes in all smiles. While it seems like a positive note, at the same time it totally feels like The Ultimates because it's so wrong at the same time. It's ironic and nuts. Instead of Tony throwing his arms in the sky and saying "that's it i'm going to LA", why not have him laughing like mad and as the cynical bastard that he is, he decides that this would be the genesis of the new group and it would be the perfect opportunity to do it with a big press conference and creat a scandal just for the Hell of it. Remember how Ultimate Iron Man thinks. The guy is crazy. On the podium would be Wasp and her crazy ex-husand and ex-Ultimates traitor Henry Pym. There would be mutant terrorist Scarlet Witch and her lesbian robot Vision. Plus robot servant Ultron and Stark's AA former drinking body Scott Lang, now having a modified suit of Hank Pym's Ant-Man progect.

Stark:"ladies and gentlemen, I present to you The Avengers!". You see clips of former Ultimates watching tv, shocked as Hell. Thor is laughing his ass off.

It would be like when the original Avengers left and were replaced by Hawkeye, Wanda, Pietro and later on Vision. Everybody was shocked by it. The public did not respond to these new guys. So it would be something akin to that but with a modern, crazier slant.

But mostly Tony would want to cause a stir for the team to look so bad that this would lure Cap to come back, force him to return and put this team of losers into shape.

[ThePhenom]

Most of all of it was pretty great. But instead of the left turn of the last phrase and saying "i'm tired of New york, let's go to LA". Why not use the great scene of having Wasp/Pym and Wanda/Vision entering, as a launching pad for a new generation? The other guys are depressed, they quit. Then four other comes in all smiles. While it seems like a positive note, at the same time it totally feels like The Ultimates because it's so wrong at the same time. It's ironic and nuts. Instead of Tony throwing his arms in the sky and saying "that's it i'm going to LA", why not have him laughing like mad and as the cynical bastard that he is, he decides that this would be the genesis of the new group and it would be the perfect opportunity to do it with a big press conference and creat a scandal just for the Hell of it. Remember how Ultimate Iron Man thinks. The guy is crazy. On the podium would be Wasp and her crazy ex-husand and ex-Ultimates traitor Henry Pym. There would be mutant terrorist Scarlet Witch and her lesbian robot Vision. Plus robot servant Ultron and Stark's AA former drinking body Scott Lang, now having a modified suit of Hank Pym's Ant-Man progect.

Stark:"ladies and gentlemen, I present to you The Avengers!". You see clips of former Ultimates watching tv, shocked as Hell. Thor is laughing his ass off.

It would be like when the original Avengers left and were replaced by Hawkeye, Wanda, Pietro and later on Vision. Everybody was shocked by it. The public did not respond to these new guys. So it would be something akin to that but with a modern, crazier slant.

Wow someone read the whole thing and liked it, yeah the Stark going to LA was a little blatant but I just loved the idea of the Ultimates doing the West Coast Avengers thing as a rival to the New York heroes.

But never even though about the new Avengers team, something akin to that would've been better, I totally buy your ideas on Thor and Tony.

*Sigh*, well back to Loeb's Avengers and reality.

[Frank]

Wow someone read the whole thing and liked it, yeah the Stark going to LA was a little blatant but I just loved the idea of the Ultimates doing the West Coast Avengers thing as a rival to the New York heroes.

But never even though about the new Avengers team, something akin to that would've been better, I totally buy your ideas on Thor and Tony.

[b]*Sigh*, well back to Loeb's Avengers and reality.[/QUOTE]

dude we really need to team-up and do this book, show Marvel how it should be done. We should put money together and hire Trevor Hairsine or something. :biggrin:

[desanth]

I wondered where this thread went(was thinking about it recently in my Ultimization thread), I looked but thought it vanished forever.
Yea, I was thinking along the same lines that if I could get someone to draw my own ideas, I could have something that would be better than Loeb's creation. I'd love to then post it on the internet and see what people think(is that highly illegal even if its not for profit?).

[Frank]

I wondered where this thread went(was thinking about it recently in my Ultimization thread), I looked but thought it vanished forever.
Yea, I was thinking along the same lines that if I could get someone to draw my own ideas, I could have something that would be better than Loeb's creation. I'd love to then post it on the internet and see what people think(is that highly illegal even if its not for profit?).

You could just change the names of the characters to avoid legal matters. :wink:

[ThePhenom]

Just realised all that time ago I didn't really address the whole actual "direction" idea that was explicitly stated.

I'm thinking now my further plotpoints would be:

- Well the teams would be the Ultimates: Cap, Quiksilver, Falcon, Hawkeye and the Hulk; and the Avengers: Iron Man, Wasp, Pym, Scarlet Witch and Vision.
- Thor wouldn't initially take a side, but disgusted by the idea of working for the government after the events of U2 would quickly find himself in the Avengers.
- The Ultimates still being government sanctioned would still be localised to what they are told, the Avengers find themselves fighting actual crime, i.e. underworld figures.
- Hawkeye would start to deal with his family's death when he starts seeing Barbara Morse, an anti-SHIELD lobbyist.
- Scarlet Witch and Vision would have trouble dealing with the physical limitations of their relationship, Quiksilver continues to covertly keep updated with the mutant community.
- The Avengers villains would be the Pride, an Ultimised version of the Runaways grown up and following in the footsteps of their parents.
- The Ultimates would deal with the ramifications of a black-out across NYC, this causes various Pym robots to go haywire, and the Ultron assault commences.
- The Ultimates deal with the robots after mass casualities, but are now out for Pym's blood, the Ultimates go to LA and have now found themselves against the Avengers after all the tension that had build throghout the arc.

A mini calls Ultimate Civil War occurs covering the events of the battle, and the Ultimates 4 would then deal with the fallout of the Avengers being outlaws as Stark a major mogul has to be on the run, Thor faces extradition in Norway, Scarlet Witch returns to Magneto with Vision, and Pym/Wasp hide out until the problems have washed away.


Sorry, I want to be a writer and thus get carried away from time to time... :frown:

[Hidden Agenda]

I will write more in the future about this and I haven't read anyone elses responses.

I will say this... Nick Fury did not need to be eliminated from the story.

Also, think Thor as a god in mental and physical capacities that would scare and awe anyone on the team... including himself.

[TradePaperbackTraitor]

One simple change: characterization!

As much as Millar enjoys writing ballz-to-the-wall action, his first two Ultimates were all about the characters.

Whether it was a big storyline about Cap and his inability to adjust to a new time and place, Thor and his struggles with his sanity, Wasp and Pym and their unhealthy relationship dynamics, or Bruce Banner and Betty Ross and their even unhealthier relationship, as well as Banner's ungodly insuperiority complex.. it was all about the characters!

About the only inner character turmoil we've explored in Ultimates 3 is the creepy relationship between Scarlett Witch and Quicksilver. Which really wasn't an exploration of anything since SW dies so early! The series begins with business as usual -- a pointless "epic" fight with Venom, all the heroes at their roundtable talking regular business as if Ultimates was an ongoing series. Heck, even the NEW character of Black Panther gets absolutely no attention early on!

I don't know what the frick Loeb was thinking, but he writes Ultimates 3 like it's an everyday 80's West Coast Avengers run.

[Tammany Hall]

Is it just me, or is anybody else cheesed off that Loeb and Mad have done everything they could to turn the Ultimates into their analog MMU Avengers characters?!?

What they did to Thor just makes me sick.

Thor was way cool in the first two series, but here, he's taking bad Shakespeare again! Way, to kill the character, Loeb.

If Loeb wanted to write the MMU Avengers, he should have asked to do a miniseries in THAT universe instead of trying to cutely write them in the UU this way.

[Ramirez IV]

Yeah, this seems to be the feeling almost all across the board. It's brought a lot of debate though, which is... nice.

Personally I see it as a sort-of-enjoyable-mess. But a real Ultimates story? Nah. Ultimates 4 has got possibly the biggest uphill slog ever in comics to win back some credibility. But what's done is done.

[carabas]

If Loeb wanted to write the MMU Avengers, he should have asked to do a miniseries in THAT universe instead of trying to cutely write them in the UU this way.To be fair, he did want to do a 616 series, and pitched it as such.

[Joe Franklin]

Is it just me, or is anybody else cheesed off that Loeb and Mad have done everything they could to turn the Ultimates into their analog MMU Avengers characters?!?

What they did to Thor just makes me sick.

Thor was way cool in the first two series, but here, he's taking bad Shakespeare again! Way, to kill the character, Loeb.

If Loeb wanted to write the MMU Avengers, he should have asked to do a miniseries in THAT universe instead of trying to cutely write them in the UU this way.

Blame the EIC and publisher, they gave Loeb carte blanch with the Ultimates.

[Kid Kamikaze10]

To be fair, he did want to do a 616 series, and pitched it as such.

And it STILL would have sucked.

[Beast]

Oh goody, another thread whining about Ultimates 3.

Nope, not cheesed off at all. It's a great big budget follow-up to Ultimates 1 & 2.

Picking up a lot of plot threads from the first two volumes and carrying them forward.

Nobody does political comics like Millar. So I'm glad that Loeb didn't try to do something in the same vein.

[carabas]

It's stricktly low budget, with a few dinaosaurs who don't do very much at all the biggest set piece so far. Other than that, it's been mostly simple fights, and nothing in the way of 'Hulk rampages through Manhattan', 'spaceship armada attack New York' or 'dead Viking warrior army battles troll army'.

[Mr.EZ]

Oh goody, another thread whining about Ultimates 3.


The OP is a just another displeased customer. It's not whining, so don't be rude. Did you ever stop to consider the legions of people who dislike Ultimates 3 outnumbers the handful that enjoys it for a reason? Perhaps the masses are right in their judgement, and you just have no taste.

Ultimates 3 sucks because Loeb didn't write an Ultimates story. It would be the same thing if he'd written a JLA story that was published in Spider-Man.

[Marcus_Maximus]

Isn't he doing the same on The Hulk????

[carabas]

The OP is a just another displeased customer. It's not whining, so don't be rude. Did you ever stop to consider the legions of people who dislike Ultimates 3 outnumbers the handful that enjoys it for a reason? Perhaps the masses are right in their judgement, and you just have no taste.Sadly, while there is but a handful of defenders, there is only a slightly larger handful of attackers, and apparently legions of silent consumers who buy the sodding thing for kitty litter or whatever.

[Splatt]

and apparently legions of silent consumers who buy the sodding thing for kitty litter.

What?

Why are you looking at me?

[Samuraixsithlord]

Isn't he doing the same on The Hulk????


Yea. I guess he wanted to make a cool new character and give him street cred by having him fight and beat a different tough guy each issue. He did the same thing with Supergirl if i recall. I can't seem to recall Loeb writing anything that I like.

I mean the characters are horrible, and he doesn't give us any new ultimate villians. I was hoping that they'd do an Ultimate Masters of Evil, or ultimate Ultron. But no we just get reused X-men villians.

He's like the anti-McGiver. He can turn anything into useless crap.

[Wolvieman]

yeah, hope for a new writer

[IronStarks]

does anyone else notice that all of Loebs storys are exactly the same? I mean in everyone ive read someone dies in the first issue, manily due to guns. Im talking Scarlett Witch in Ultimates 3, that guy in Batman: Hush i think, hell even the Abomination in in the Hulk died from a bullet :(

[DeREk FrEEsT]

does anyone else notice that all of Loebs storys are exactly the same? I mean in everyone ive read someone dies in the first issue, manily due to guns. Im talking Scarlett Witch in Ultimates 3, that guy in Batman: Hush i think, hell even the Abomination in in the Hulk died from a bullet :(

Someone has finally learned to connect Loeb's copy dots!!!!:wink:

[Mr. Sam]

Sadly, while there is but a handful of defenders, there is only a slightly larger handful of attackers, and apparently legions of silent consumers who buy the sodding thing for kitty litter or whatever.

Animal abuse.

[Marcus_Maximus]

Is it just me, or is anybody else cheesed off that Loeb and Mad have done everything they could to turn the Ultimates into their analog MMU Avengers characters?!?

What they did to Thor just makes me sick.

Thor was way cool in the first two series, but here, he's taking bad Shakespeare again! Way, to kill the character, Loeb.

If Loeb wanted to write the MMU Avengers, he should have asked to do a miniseries in THAT universe instead of trying to cutely write them in the UU this way.

Be careful.

[Chachi]

Ultimates 3 #5 has been delayed til September 17th - ha ha ha ha

[TheNobodY]

Loeb killed the ultimates. Ultimates 1 and 2 were great and after millar left,i knew ultimates 3 wasn't gonna be as good, but damn i didn't expect it to be this horrible, it's like a 12 year came up with the storyline.

[DeadXMan]

ult 3 is better then ultXM and ULT FF and Millar's FF
Combined

also look at the rules

your comments are not thread worthy

and welcome to the suck. :)

[Beast]

Oh Goody. Yet another thread about this. Doesn't this board have a rule about this?

Well said DeadXMan. *Claps*

[CBikle]

Are "Jeph Loeb sucks" threads so common around here that there needs to be special rules ?

[Beast]

Are "Jeph Loeb sucks" threads so common around here that there needs to be special rules ?
There's a rule about "Your opinion is not necessarily worthy of it's own thread".

[ULTIMATE VENOM]

Why do ppl keep doing this? Why cant we all agree that 90% of us dont like about Ults. 3 and the other 10% do. Thats all there is to it, I really am getting sick of all these hate threads.

[DeadXMan]

plus there's like 50 of them between here and hulk threads

[IronStarks]

im the biggest ult 3 and loeb hater, but i too am also getting sick of these threads

[SeritoNiN]

I'm just here to up my post count....and add in yes, Ultimates 3 sucks the big one, but you could have added it to one of the other 1,000 threads going on, obviously it's unanimous :cool:

[Legend437]

Loeb is hit or miss, mostly miss for me, but it depends on what you prefer. Though just because I don't like The Ultimates anymore, doesn't mean I make a thread about it, I just ignore it, meh.

[Samuraixsithlord]

ult 3 is better then ultXM and ULT FF and Millar's FF
Combined


I wouldn't go that far

[DeadXMan]

your right

millar's FF really hurts the curve for Ult X-men and uFF

[IronStarks]

i like to add we should save the Loeb bashing untill after Ultimates 3, 5 comes out, who know what could happen, mabey it will be even decent?

[DeadXMan]

i like to add we should save the Loeb bashing untill after Ultimates 3, 5 comes out, who know what could happen, mabey it will be even decent?

it more cognitive then what the hell's going on over at Ult X-men, that's for sure.

[wchua24]

hmmm. i completely agree..:evilsmile:

[Splatt]

Yes!

Another thread where I can express my hatred for Loeb and his Ultimate Avengers! Oh joyful day!