Uxm#90 Spoilers

[Last_Avenger]

ok, due to my stupidity posting spoilers in the preview thread, I'm going to post a synopsis to try and redeem myself if possible.

opens at X-Mansion like the preview and Jean and Scott tell Bishop's team about Sinister still being alive. Scott doens't want to hunt him down because he's a wuss and doesn't want to be an x-man anymore.

Sinister goes to the Morlocks and kills leech among others while Nightcrawler actually shines quite a bit as he defends his peopel form Sinister.

Bishop's team arrives, and Sinister kills until there is only one left. He's about to kill Dazzler and Angel swoops in and grabs Sinister, and Sinister just shoots him as they're flying and they plummet to the gorund. However, while they were flying Dazzler and Storm tried to save Warren, but bishop stopped them somehow by zapping them wiht his power, which resulted i nthe death Warren.

Wolverine flips out and stabs Bishop in hte chest, Bishop fading and saying "We planned it like this to fix everything"

everyone is standing around the two corpses and above on the streets Apocalypse stands and says he's alive now.

and as a side note plenty of the Marvel "Lost" campaigning (it's my favorite show!) and Apocalypse is in his traditional 6161 clothes, not his issue 91 cover preview armor.

[Slyfer]

What the hell ???

[TheAmazingSpidey]

What the hell ???

Yeah--What the hell?!

[Jake V]

Doesn't matter.

Book's getting canned as soon as Ultimatum starts.

[Beast]

Doesn't matter.

Book's getting canned as soon as Ultimatum starts.
Hopefully it will get cannned and completely rebooted after this mess.

[Joe Franklin]

Hopefully it will get cannned and completely rebooted after this mess.


Quoted for the truth.:cool:

[HepOne]

opens at X-Mansion like the preview and Jean and Scott tell Bishop's team about Sinister still being alive. Scott doens't want to hunt him down because he's a wuss and doesn't want to be an x-man anymore.


Thats all you need to know about Kirkman's affect on this book- PATHETIC

[Shyft]

unless Angel's death results in him coming back as Archangel, this is totally lame.

[Beast]

I mentioned it in the preview thread, but it needs to be mentioned here also.

Nice to see there's already a massive continuity error. Beast was with Storm when she was brought to the mansion after the Shadow King attack. Scott and Jean already knew he was alive. Or they didn't notice he was standing right in the bloody room. Bravo Robert Kirkman, you've done it again. :p

[Vapour Trail]

So Beast dies and then he's alive. Prof X dies and then he's alive. Now either Angel stays dead in which case, what a waste, or he's alive again in which case this plot device is SERIOUSLY overused.

Imagine living in a world where not only was it possible for your loved ones to come back to life, but it was probable that they would. Who would even bother attending funerals. Why skip work, chances are they'll be back. It's like a bad soap opera.

[Shyft]

So Beast dies and then he's alive. Prof X dies and then he's alive. Now either Angel stays dead in which case, what a waste, or he's alive again in which case this plot device is SERIOUSLY overused.

Imagine living in a world where not only was it possible for your loved ones to come back to life, but it was probable that they would. Who would even bother attending funerals. Why skip work, chances are they'll be back. It's like a bad soap opera.

if he comes back as blue skin metal wing Archangel it would be totally worth it.

[Last_Avenger]

if he comes back as blue skin metal wing Archangel it would be totally worth it.

I'm in total agreeance (if that's a word) with you. However, I don't think Kirkman will do it. It was seriously amazing though how they just mention Beast's resurrection, then throw it away. Not to mention Scott's terrible character traits nowadays make me hate him in almost all X-books.

Kirkman can't leave soon enough, I hope a serious reboot happens, as far downhill as this series has gone it can still be salvaged, and there's no way in hell this thing get's cancelled after ultimatum, why else bring on the new writer?

Honestly Nightcrawler must be getting some "therapy" down there finally cause he's acting way more cooler and badass than anyone in this comic. Oddly enough, watching Bishop die was somewhat pleasing...

[Obsidian Thought]

I wonder if that pleasure comes from Bishop (616) bein' a big a** traitor as of recently?

I don't think Bishop ever needed to be introduced along with Cable in UX in the first place. There so much other stories that could've been done. But oh well....

[wolp]

I dropped this book and haven't read any spoilers. It sucks cuz I liked the first two arcs and I picked up the Cable arc but I dropped it after that.

[bbmakdaddycomics]

kirkman sucks ass, i doubt hes going to bring back angel but if he does he still sucks cuz if archangel enters the ultiomate universe it'll end up the very same as 616 by the time kirkmans done.

[Last_Avenger]

I wonder if that pleasure comes from Bishop (616) bein' a big a** traitor as of recently?

I don't think Bishop ever needed to be introduced along with Cable in UX in the first place. There so much other stories that could've been done. But oh well....

no, actually now I like 616 Bishop ironically. His character has an interesting motivation thank goodness to Messiah Complex. however Ultiamte Bishop was just, well, stale. He was such a bore, since the beginning, nothing really interesting about him.

Oh well, I'm sort of just reading this out of remaining hope. Here's hoping Angel gets put on the Uncanny X-Team in issue 500!!!!!

[ThePhenom]

I'm sure it'll all have to do with time travel saving them in the end, admiteddly the bulk of the new X-Men team were previously expendable characters but I'm sure we'll see them again.

And I for one, would hate to see Angel come back as Archangel, seems a bit too cartoonish even for Kirkman's run at this stage.

[Ramirez IV]

I know it's wrong to judge before reading the issue, but this does sound, well, rubbish. Killing characters again, as with Beast and Professor X coming back, just doesn't work as a shock tactic anymore, particularly since it's someone with such poor characterisation and emotional investment as Angel. If Kirkman brings him back as Archangel, I think that'll be the final straw. There's loving the nineties and then there's making the book a big joke. Actually, hell, he already has. Apocalypse looks 616? I don't think Kirkman has ever understood what the Ultimate line is for. I don't hate a lot... but Kirkman is my least favorite writer, possibly ever, now.

[Grunty]

So, the four kids from Sinisters first apearance are really dead? Well Synch and Maggot are still save since they where not named and the two guys only looked slighty like them.
However there aren't many purple haired girls with bones in the marvel universe which makes it kind of clear who that character was supposed to be.
Also no Horsemen of Apocalyps.

And here we got a mini-mutant massacre. Yep the word mini really fits since the original was a creepy and mean crossover with a lot of impact while this is just a senseless slaughter even more senseless than the student deaths in New X-men.
Besides killing Leech? Isn't that kind of paradox considering he was one of the FEW who actualy survived it in 616?

Besides Kirkman also killed Wolfsbane, most likely because he didn't knew what to do with her, but in his desire to finish up old hints and storylines by other writers, he wanted to get her out of the way (for what ever).

[bbmakdaddycomics]

i jst finihed it and saw how bad kirkman's plot is nd i want to know. why did bishop prevent storm and dazzler from saving angel when he could have just stopped sinister's transformation into apocolypse?

[Ultimate Interpol]

All the way back to The Underneath arc Bishop was against Angel joining his X-Men. Kirkman might have a good explaination for it later. Maybe Angel would have become a bigger threat to the world then we know. It's all speculation. Unless this was a humorous question. Bishop did say it was all part of the plan.

[Show me yours]

Hey i'm new to this board but already i'm so glad that everyone hates Kirkhams run. I mean the ultimate line was made so everything could be radically different but all he does is rehash 616 concepts then tries to put his own spin on it, what well just turns into a car wreck. And just from reading these spoilers its as if he is trying to do a Morlock massacre, but fails, tries to make Mr Sinister an interestin character, but fails (if you want an interesting Sinister pick up messiah complex!). Why doesnt Marvel just be clever and kick him of the damn book! And that is what grinds my gears!!!:mad:

[Brian M.]

I just find myself going, "Who cares?".

The story should interest me. It should. It hasn't in a looooooong time.

[Kalen O.]

LOL, who wants to bet that Cable and Bishop's plan for Xavier involved teaching him how to become uber bad-ass Onslaught and take on Apocalypse 'Clash of the Titans' style?

[bbmakdaddycomics]

All the way back to The Underneath arc Bishop was against Angel joining his X-Men. Kirkman might have a good explaination for it later. Maybe Angel would have become a bigger threat to the world then we know. It's all speculation. Unless this was a humorous question. Bishop did say it was all part of the plan.

its both a serious but humorous question because all they had to was kill sinister before he transformed. it would have been a bit more excusable if sinister and apocolypse were seperate.

[Brian M.]

Why not include this question in the thread with...you know...the other discussions?

[Frodo-X]

So glad I quit after #88.

[Grievous]

Scott doens't want to hunt him down because he's a wuss and doesn't want to be an x-man anymore.


This is an incredibly inaccurate account of what really happened. Cyclops addresses that his stance against mutant violence does not apply in the case (meaning he is not a wuss - he wants Sinister dead) but he is going to remain at the mansion to protect it in case Sinister comes there.

[Ultimate Interpol]

Hey i'm new to this board but already i'm so glad that everyone hates Kirkhams run. I mean the ultimate line was made so everything could be radically different but all he does is rehash 616 concepts then tries to put his own spin on it, what well just turns into a car wreck. And just from reading these spoilers its as if he is trying to do a Morlock massacre, but fails, tries to make Mr Sinister an interestin character, but fails (if you want an interesting Sinister pick up messiah complex!). Why doesnt Marvel just be clever and kick him of the damn book! And that is what grinds my gears!!!:mad:

Um, have you read Messiah Complex because
Spoilers:
Mr.Sinister Was Dead, how interesting was his character then.

[Show me yours]

Um, have you read Messiah Complex because
Spoilers:
Mr.Sinister Was Dead, how interesting was his character then.


yer well there is that lol but I mean he is much more of an interesting character when he wasnt Apocalpse lackey through messiah complex he was given a purpose with kirkham he uses the character and gives him no umph... if that even makes sense

[Ultimate Interpol]

he is much more of an interesting character when he wasnt Apocalpse lackey

That is true.:cool:

[Last_Avenger]

This is an incredibly inaccurate account of what really happened. Cyclops addresses that his stance against mutant violence does not apply in the case (meaning he is not a wuss - he wants Sinister dead) but he is going to remain at the mansion to protect it in case Sinister comes there.

I apologize, when I said wuss, I mean a stupid coward who doesn't know what would be best for the mutant community.

ever since Xavier told him he loved Jean and then got suckedi nto the future, Cyclops has been AGAINST any X-Men acitivity aside from that one instance where he had to save Toad. His character has amde acomplete 180.

AND he was a dick to Beast, someone who used to be one of his best friends.

He hides behind his "defend the school" routine, when he knows full well that he is the best leader in existence for mutants, and it's all because of Xavier's dumb little revelation.

DAMN YOU KIRKMAN!!!!

[Last_Avenger]

yer well there is that lol but I mean he is much more of an interesting character when he wasnt Apocalpse lackey through messiah complex he was given a purpose with kirkham he uses the character and gives him no umph... if that even makes sense

first off, welcome to the boards, and trust me, we all know what you're trying to say, we all pretty much bash Kirkman because of his terrible and dragging plots and mis-characterizations.

I'm sure there still some optimists though....

Oh well, Kirkman's off after the end of Apocalypse!

[bbmakdaddycomics]

Why not include this question in the thread with...you know...the other discussions?

to make sure i got other people opinions without being ignored.

[Novaya Havoc]

I read it as Dazzler KILLING Angel. The art wasn't clear, but it looked like Dazzler blasted the two of them, via Bishop.

Either way, lame.

616 Angel + 616 Dazzler for life. One thing I liked about this title from a fanwank perspective was that Angel and Dazz were together.

But Ultimate Dazz has been crappy for a long, long time now. I counted at least two instances of Dazzler using her mutant power of speaking in @$*$^#&*!!!3474289@$#&*!!!

Blargh.

[flapjaxx]

if he comes back as blue skin metal wing Archangel it would be totally worth it.

Why would you think, after neutering every other remotely interesting X-character, that Kirkman would be able to handle Archangel any better? (If some other writer a year or two from now turns Angel's death into the birth of Archangel, then I might agree with you.)

He hides behind his "defend the school" routine, when he knows full well that he is the best leader in existence for mutants, and it's all because of Xavier's dumb little revelation.

I'm not convinced that Ultimate Cyclops has even half of the (relatively simple) psychological depth that you suggest, especially not under this writer. You actually think Kirkman's characters here *think* or have *reasons* for what they do? I've seen little evidence of this. In fact, Wolverine's split-second decision to kill Bishop amounts to the most convincing moment of thought and logic that I've seen in this title in like two years.

I haven't seen Larocca's art in a long time, but I thought it was better than this. I thought the guy was nearly an A-list artist, but this was horrible. I think the inking and coloring were somewhat to blame, though.

These last few issues are only going to get increasingly bad, contrived, and ridiculous. And I for one will relish every page.

[Ramirez IV]

Actually crappy Sinister wasn't really Kirkman's fault I suppose. It feels like sacrilege towards the almighty Vaughn but I never really thought that Ultimate Sinister worked that well, he was never that... Sinister. You know, except the 'stairs'.

[Ragnorok64]

What the heck Wolverine! Can't he hold back his inate desire to stab people long enough to not kill the dude from the future who actually knows what the heck is going on?

[Last_Avenger]

I'm not convinced that Ultimate Cyclops has even half of the (relatively simple) psychological depth that you suggest, especially not under this writer. You actually think Kirkman's characters here *think* or have *reasons* for what they do? I've seen little evidence of this. In fact, Wolverine's split-second decision to kill Bishop amounts to the most convincing moment of thought and logic that I've seen in this title in like two years.


What can I say, I'd hope someone as accomplished as a writer for Marvel on what what used to be a very well-selling book would have personalities charted out. I guess I'm just an optimist.:rolleyes:

[QuietRiver]

its both a serious but humorous question because all they had to was kill sinister before he transformed. it would have been a bit more excusable if sinister and apocolypse were seperate.

I don't think they are the same entity. It seems to be the Apocalypse entity possessing Sinister. Bishop did say that if not Sinister, this would happen to someone else.

That aside, god damn but I hate this costume of Apocalypse's! The belt man! If they're going to use that costume at least take out the unnecessarily humongoid belt!

[ddqfpluskick]

Two things

I can get with what Scott is doing. He trying to teach and help young peopling dealing with their mutation not go out and get into a meta-brawl. This is one of the flaws I always found with X-men as of late. Even with 27 students there were no teachers. They have SHIELD and they have the Utimates. Does he teach 100 or more students about being better leaders or deos he go and put out every fire that pops up.

The second is I'm starting to thsi a red shirt pattern popping up where so many unpopular or low level characters are dying for the sake of saving the main cast.

[Toboe]

Well, this was bad... seesm like a mock fanfic of the nineties or something.

The dialogue was terrible, as usual.

Beast: Turns out I wasn't really dead!

Dazzler apparently can't finish a serntence without $#%&@

Angel's death had absolutely no value as after Professor X and Beast's returns it is obvious he'll come back in a crappy way.

Can not wait for Kirkman to finish this mess, I'm curious about what the Heroes dude whose name I keep forgetting has planned before it gets worse with Loeb.

[CmX]

I just read this and it blew, but I'm ont entirely surprised.

Those deaths were so WTF and unnecesary. I knew Angel would eventually be killed off by Bishop refusing him on the team early on. But not in a such a crappy way.

The art was SO bad also, horrible.

Just three more issues.

[Ragnorok64]

I still can't get over how dumb it was for Wolverine to kill Bishop. "No. your Done, you don't get to explain yourself!" Yet two panels later he's asking "we who." Well maybe if you hadn't have just put 3 holes through the man the guy with all the future tech might be able to tell you important stuff other than dieing. This is coming from the same Wolverine that let Cyclopes drop to his near death so he could have Jean to himself.

[bbmakdaddycomics]

I still can't get over how dumb it was for Wolverine to kill Bishop. "No. your Done, you don't get to explain yourself!" Yet two panels later he's asking "we who." Well maybe if you hadn't have just put 3 holes through the man the guy with all the future tech might be able to tell you important stuff other than dieing. This is coming from the same Wolverine that let Cyclopes drop to his near death so he could have Jean to himself.

agreed that was dumb as hell to not let bishop explain then ask who, but that classic kirkman for u thank god hes leaving in 3 months

[desanth]

The best part of the issue was when Wolverine shanked Bishop. Not because it was relevant, but because of the art. Look at that face!! Its #$#@ing hilarious!

Man, my theory is that Apocalypse gains powers based on who he killed to evolve, I mean why else let him kill Angel instead of letting him have some cannon fodder er Morlocks. Also that Sinister didn't fake his death, but was immortal, so he'd be an ongoing threat.

[carabas]

its both a serious but humorous question because all they had to was kill sinister before he transformed. it would have been a bit more excusable if sinister and apocolypse were seperate.Not quite. From Bishop's dialogue, it seems clear that in his timeline, they did stop Nathaniel Essex becoming Apocalypse, and as a result someone else took on that mantle, allowing Apocalypse to move in secret.
Bishop succeeded in what he set out to do: give the future a fighting chance.

[ThePhenom]

Man, my theory is that Apocalypse gains powers based on who he killed to evolve, I mean why else let him kill Angel instead of letting him have some cannon fodder er Morlocks. Also that Sinister didn't fake his death, but was immortal, so he'd be an ongoing threat.

Seems like he'd have some pretty dud powers to start with, also assumably he'd have sprouted wings upon his formation.

[spiderman_rj]

Well, this was bad... seesm like a mock fanfic of the nineties or something.

The dialogue was terrible, as usual.

Beast: Turns out I wasn't really dead!

Dazzler apparently can't finish a serntence without $#%&@

Angel's death had absolutely no value as after Professor X and Beast's returns it is obvious he'll come back in a crappy way.

Can not wait for Kirkman to finish this mess, I'm curious about what the Heroes dude whose name I keep forgetting has planned before it gets worse with Loeb.


WHAT !! loeb is coming to this title too ? all hope is lost ! he crippled the might ultimates.....how could they allow that to happen !!

[Beast]

WHAT !! loeb is coming to this title too ? all hope is lost ! he crippled the might ultimates.....how could they allow that to happen !!
Cause regardless of what people think of Loeb, he's still better than Kirkman.

[pariah-1972]

Wow even the art wasn't up to his normal standards:mad:
this felt like something a 13 year old would write it was very simplistic and stupid- for example Sinister was clearly talking to Leech but yet he was still able to use his powers on him:mad:
Nightcrawler should have tried to port him somewhere else at least to give himself enough time for everyone to escape.

i also think its weird that a room full of mutant morlocks and none even tried to take down a dude with only guns and some hypnotizing powers.

and him changing into Apocalypse is lame and doesn't seem like he put much thought in it especially after he made Cable an older version of Wolverine.

and why was Psylockes always flying up? i'm scared we were gonna have a Britney Spears moment with that girl.

which reminds me all there costumes pretty much suck since Kirkman took over they just make me ill.

[Beast]

Sinister changing into Apocalypse kinda fits the recent way characters have been Ultimatized though. It's been a habit from shortly after the series began to start combining two different characters into one.

Off the top of my head...

Ultimate Proteus = Proteus and Legion.
Ultimate Dazzler = Dazzler and Jubilee.
Ultimate Cable = Wolverine and Cable.
Ultimate Bishop = Bishop and Harry Leland.
Ultimate Deadpool = Deadpool and Donald Pierce.

And there's ton more. No it wasn't very well done, but it's not exactly new for Ultimates.

[Green05]

Bishop can stop Wolverine. His power was density control, he had a strong chance at survival!:mad:Why did he have to go out like that? He owed Bishop anyway for stopping Cornelious from whatever he was planning. Hell, Wolverine could've knocked him out like last time.

[Josef F.]

So sinister's actually Apocalypse.
Dont. . . .Just Don't.

[CmX]

I kinda like the idea of Apocalypse being an entity that drives someone to madness and to murder, but it was executed poorly.

[Last_Avenger]

I kinda like the idea of Apocalypse being an entity that drives someone to madness and to murder, but it was executed poorly.

"executed poorly" is the key phrase for a lot of things in this book.

[carabas]

for example Sinister was clearly talking to Leech but yet he was still able to use his powers on him.Leech inhibits mutant powers. Sinister does not have mutant powers. There is no contradiction here.

[SnakeEater]

With school and some personal things keeping me more on myspace then on the forums i havent been keeping up too much.
whose taking over ultimate and is this the last storyline by kirkman because i was going to drop this series after this storyline but now if someone new is coming i might give it a chance.

[ThePhenom]

With school and some personal things keeping me more on myspace then on the forums i havent been keeping up too much.
whose taking over ultimate and is this the last storyline by kirkman because i was going to drop this series after this storyline but now if someone new is coming i might give it a chance.

Ultimate X-Men is being taken over by a writer from Heroes (Aron Coleite). The end of this arc is in three months, the new writer only picks it up for four issues until Loeb takes over and destroys it even more.

[Ramirez IV]

Go back and read Millar's run. I've just read issue 90. It's not the same book anymore. I don't even know what this mess is. Heroes person, Loeb, I don't care. Anyone. Just save Ultimate X Men.

[SnakeEater]

double post

[SnakeEater]

Ultimate X-Men is being taken over by a writer from Heroes (Aron Coleite). The end of this arc is in three months, the new writer only picks it up for four issues until Loeb takes over and destroys it even more.

LOEB?!??!?!?!!?

oh youre kiddding right?
damn it im dropping it. forget its not worth the next 12 dollars to get even madder by the summer

[carabas]

Go back and read Millar's run. I've just read issue 90. It's not the same book anymore.So true. The look's completely changed, entirely different sort of stories are being told, the general atmosphere is completely different, and all of the characters are acting as if they had a complete personality transplant.
Cyclops and Jean in particular are acting as if they're forty intead of kids.

[Kage Kisaragi]

is this not the crappiest of crap fest? I mean, It was pretty evident that Wolverine was gonna kill Bishop I mean, he had to find a new girl friend and with Bishop potentially getting Psylocke that would have left Wolvie out in the cold since Dazzler will more than likely not want anything to do with him now that Angel is gone. Still in all seriousness I am this close to no longer reading this title as it has become that boring. Bishops dead, Beast is back, Psylocke is a kid, Angel is dead not that I care, Dazzler is ugly beyond belief, Storm looks like Hallie Barry which is all kinds wrong and kills me a little more everytime I see her. I motion they restart this series 10 years in the future with none of the present cast after killing everyone off and start all over with a new bunch of X-Men, who aren't like their 616 counter parts or like their movie counter parts.

Jubliee = Leader with the New X-Men cast as her crew. Canniball, Ranhe, Dani, Sunspot, and someone to be the scientific brains. Maybe a handled computer with Beast brain and personality in it.

[Rufusade]

So sinister's actually Apocalypse.
Dont. . . .Just Don't.

He is not Apocalypse! Let me make that clear, Apocalypse is an entity taking and altering Sinister's body for his own needs. This does not make them the same people. In this series it is impossible to tell if someones body belongs to who it is supposed to belong to. (I.E. pheonix and Jean)

[hunter_peterson]

How do YOU know? Also two of the same in one series is hackneyed and, well frankly just crap.

[Rufusade]

How do YOU know? Also two of the same in one series is hackneyed and, well frankly just crap.

A: I know its overused but that has not stopped them before but it has not got the same negative reaction as it did when they made wolverine and cable the same person (physically, mentally and spiritually). It takes away from Apocalypse's sense of importance if he was just some psycho who accidentally got enough power to take over the world.

B: The events that happen to Sinister are very similar to what Jean went through with the phoenix. Apparently she frequently suffered hallucinations of the phoenix but it was revealed to be real when they were captured by the hellfire club. A very similar situation has played out with Apocalypse. That’s why think Apocalypse and the phoenix are twin entities.

[carabas]

Have we actually seen even a tiny bit of evidence that the Great Flame Chicken Of The Sky is, in fact, real rather than the byproduct of Jean's unconsciousnes?

[Rufusade]

Have we actually seen even a tiny bit of evidence that the Great Flame Chicken Of The Sky is, in fact, real rather than the byproduct of Jean's unconsciousnes?

Din't the guy named "Gerald" say that Jean "tested negative" for the Phoenix but it was later revealed that she was tested positive and he just covered it up for the Hellfire Club.

[Kage Kisaragi]

Din't the guy named "Gerald" say that Jean "tested negative" for the Phoenix but it was later revealed that she was tested positive and he just covered it up for the Hellfire Club.

pretty much. I think it was the same issued that it was revealed that she tested negative that he went into a secret room and had a phone conversation that said the exact opposite.

[carabas]

Din't the guy named "Gerald" say that Jean "tested negative" for the Phoenix but it was later revealed that she was tested positive and he just covered it up for the Hellfire Club.Just because some zealots think they have proof their insane god exists, doesn't really make it so. I'm sure the Scientologists can prove Tethans exist.

All it really tells us is that "Gerald" is a true believer.

and I expect future writers to go back and forth over whether or not there really is a Phoenix entity or not.