Who should've died during Civil War?

[engen500]

I know Civil War is so 2 years ago, but I keep thinking about how it could have been more epic...like on some 1980's crossover $H*#

I think more people should've died during the Civil War, characters that many people have grown to love...cause death is apart of War...

Luke Cage, Ben Grimm, Spider-Woman and other A-D list characters should have been killed ...these are just examples, but I think if Marvel had really shown maybe 100 characters of it's 5000 character roster die, fans would have been shocked and inspired at the same time... Villains and Superheroes should have died....Not just 5: Captain America, Goliath....

Death shouldn't have been the main focus but if Civil War had been that epic, people would have had to die....

Who do you think should have died and what effects?

[DaeJi]

I'm not a fan of killing off characters for the mere fact that they tend to come back. I don't think that death is epic or shocking or carries an "anything can happen!" vibe anymore. In fact, I expect every event now a days to have a death in it.

That said, if they were going to kill off Captain America I think it may have been a little more dramatic to do it in Civil War.

[GozertheGozarian]

If they really wanted to hammer home the need for regulation, they should have killed Iron Man.

[Siddon]

Issue 1 - New Warriors
Issue 2 - Firestar
Issue 3 - War Machine
Issue 4 - Black Goliath
Issue 5 - Jack O'Lantern, Jester
Issue 6 - Stiltman
Issue 7 - Clor

[TheAmazingSpidey]

Issue 1 - New Warriors
Issue 2 - Firestar
Issue 3 - War Machine
Issue 4 - Black Goliath
Issue 5 - Jack O'Lantern, Jester
Issue 6 - Stiltman
Issue 7 - Clor


Waitaminute! I don't remember Firestar dying...?

Do you have a scan?

[GRANT!]

I'm not a fan of killing off characters for the mere fact that they tend to come back. I don't think that death is epic or shocking or carries an "anything can happen!" vibe anymore. In fact, I expect every event now a days to have a death in it.

That said, if they were going to kill off Captain America I think it may have been a little more dramatic to do it in Civil War.

I kind like how they did it in Caps book. Generally because that's a better book then Civil War is.

[XPac]

Who do you think should have died and what effects?

Who should have died? Let's see... Miriam Sharpe, Sally Flody, and Maria Hill.

Immediate effects? I'd be very very very happy.

[TheAmazingSpidey]

Iron Man should have died. Him, I could live without...but Cap...:(

Maybe the Thor 'clone' could have gone berserk, and Iron Man goes after him and dies in battle. People who think he's a douche and wanted him dead are pleased, and his fans, while thinking that it sucks that IM has died, will be pleased he at least had a heroic death. Just a thought.

[TotalWorldDomination]

If they really wanted to hammer home the need for regulation, they should have killed Iron Man.

Many may find this strange, but I'm going to wholeheartedly agree. If cap had killed Tony (or Luke cage had, or Spidy had, or Invisiable Woman had, or anyone major on the anti-reg side) the whole anti-reg/pro-reg issue would have been felt in much sharper relief. Happy Hogan getting offed in Iron Man's title during the CW was almost that, but not enough.

Waitaminute! I don't remember Firestar dying...?

Do you have a scan?

I think he's showing it as HE would have done it, IE who would have died when if he had been in charge.

I kind like how they did it in Caps book. Generally because that's a better book then Civil War is.

Agreed. On another note, if you kill cap during CW the book becomes totaly about cap's death, rather then part of the CW fallout.

[TheAmazingSpidey]

I think he's showing it as HE would have done it, IE who would have died when if he had been in charge.



Oh. Well now I just feel stupid. :p

[TotalWorldDomination]

Iron Man should have died. Him, I could live without...but Cap...:(

Maybe the Thor 'clone' could have gone berserk, and Iron Man goes after him and dies in battle. People who think he's a douche and wanted him dead are pleased, and his fans, while thinking that it sucks that IM has died, will be pleased he at least had a heroic death. Just a thought.

Speaking as a big IM fan, that would not have pleased me. At all. His death should make a point for his ideology and be tragic, a heroic death is one meant for characters that need redeeming or are past there prime. I would have been fine had he been killed in cold blood by an Anti-Reg fighter. THAT would have been fitting.

My ideal "Iron Man dies in CW" death would be some E-Level hero sneaks into Stark Tower following the Civil War and kills Iron Man in Cap's name. I'd love to have seen the Confession done in reverse where Cap was the one guilt-ridden over the death of his best friend.

[TotalWorldDomination]

Oh. Well now I just feel stupid. :p

No worries. If I had a dollar for every time I made a silly mistake on these forums...

[XPac]

Many may find this strange, but I'm going to wholeheartedly agree. If cap had killed Tony (or Luke cage had, or Spidy had, or Invisiable Woman had, or anyone major on the anti-reg side) the whole anti-reg/pro-reg issue would have been felt in much sharper relief. Happy Hogan getting offed in Iron Man's title during the CW was almost that, but not enough.



Had Cap, Spidey, or Invisible Woman killed Iron Man then we'd have a much bigger issue than CW. Those are some pretty iconic heroes whose names are being dragged through the mud just to highlight this anti/pro thing that's frankly all but forgotten about.

[TotalWorldDomination]

Had Cap, Spidey, or Invisible Woman killed Iron Man then we'd have a much bigger issue than CW. Those are some pretty iconic heroes whose names are being dragged through the mud just to highlight this anti/pro thing that's frankly all but forgotten about.

I disagree. 1) this "anti/pro thing" has not been forgotten about at all (based on the amount we argue about it alone!:D). If the Pro/Anti thing had been forgotten it would utterly undo civil war, something marvel has told is is there big universe redoing event- the Marvel Crisis as it were. The effects of the Pro/Anti divide are everywhere (except in FF) and hopefully will remain as long as I read the books.

2) the whole reason behind one of them killing Iron Man is that it would have to be a accidental or near accidental death. IM being murdered is only good if its some insane E-Leveler who's taken cap's ideology too literally. However if IM is killed in the heat of battle by accident, it reinforces his point about unregistered activity.

3) there is no way to drag Invisible Woman's name through the Mud. She's already terrible ;)

[XPac]

I disagree. 1) this "anti/pro thing" has not been forgotten about at all (based on the amount we argue about it alone!:D). If the Pro/Anti thing had been forgotten it would utterly undo civil war, something marvel has told is is there big universe redoing event- the Marvel Crisis as it were. The effects of the Pro/Anti divide are everywhere (except in FF) and hopefully will remain as long as I read the books.

2) the whole reason behind one of them killing Iron Man is that it would have to be a accidental or near accidental death. IM being murdered is only good if its some insane E-Leveler who's taken cap's ideology too literally. However if IM is killed in the heat of battle by accident, it reinforces his point about unregistered activity.

3) there is no way to drag Invisible Woman's name through the Mud. She's already terrible ;)

Obviously the fans haven't forgotten about the pro-anti thing... but the government, Stark, and SHIELD basically have. The NA, the Young Avengers, and Daredevil are all operating now without anyone chasing after them anymore so it's kind of a dead issue.

Obviously the registration and Initiative still exist... but law enforcement and government seem to largely be looking the other way in regards to the unregistered heroes. So the issue of the anti's doesn't seem much of an issue anymore.

[DaeJi]

Actually, an anti-reg hero (not one of the big names though, someone like Prodigy) would have actaully been a cool twist, and would have made Cap surrendering make a lot more sense than it did.

[TotalWorldDomination]

Obviously the fans haven't forgotten about the pro-anti thing... but the government, Stark, and SHIELD basically have. The NA, the Young Avengers, and Daredevil are all operating now without anyone chasing after them anymore so it's kind of a dead issue.

Obviously the registration and Initiative still exist... but law enforcement and government seem to largely be looking the other way in regards to the unregistered heroes. So the issue of the anti's doesn't seem much of an issue anymore.

Stark seems to have temporarily decided that registration is less important then the Skrulls among us. I can see his side of it, but it's still supremely aggravating to someone who rooted for his side during the CW to see him basically ignore what he fought for. After all, if you're going to ignore registration, why the heck did you fight the war in the first place?!

My own problems with how marvel is treating Stark's views on registration aside, that dose not mean that everyone has forgotten about registration. You only have to look as far as the new Damage Control mini to see registration is still in effect- the thunderbolts show up demanding to see everyone's SHRA cards before they can volunteer to start clean-up.

[SquidSquod]

I rather like the idea that Tony, not Steve killed in the last battle of CW. He died taking the "bullet" from Clor or Sentry saving Cap's life, because the only guy who can take the brunt of those two juggernauts who seems to be illogically ineffective and unspectacular in CW 7. Before his demise, Iron Man can unleash his whole arrays of stuff like Bendis Iron Man instead of poof-poofing harmless repulsor here and there. Oh well, it seems Iron Man movie timetable is too soon while Cap movie is still years away.

[XPac]

Stark seems to have temporarily decided that registration is less important then the Skrulls among us. I can see his side of it, but it's still supremely aggravating to someone who rooted for his side during the CW to see him basically ignore what he fought for. After all, if you're going to ignore registration, why the heck did you fight the war in the first place?!

My own problems with how marvel is treating Stark's views on registration aside, that dose not mean that everyone has forgotten about registration. You only have to look as far as the new Damage Control mini to see registration is still in effect- the thunderbolts show up demanding to see everyone's SHRA cards before they can volunteer to start clean-up.

Yeah, the TBolts are the obvious exception. That's the one lingering element that can't ever really go away since it's necessary for the book.

It's obviousy not competely gone... it's still the law. I'm just saying neither the public, Stark, or the government on the whole really care that much at this point.

After the whole Stamford parania faded, I think most have decided that it's simply not that importat. There are actual villains out there that they can spend their time and resources going after.

[XPac]

I rather like the idea that Tony, not Steve killed in the last battle of CW. He died taking the "bullet" from Clor or Sentry saving Cap's life, because the only guy who can take the brunt of those two juggernauts who seems to be illogically ineffective and unspectacular in CW 7. Before his demise, Iron Man can unleash his whole arrays of stuff like Bendis Iron Man instead of poof-poofing harmless repulsor here and there. Oh well, it seems Iron Man movie timetable is too soon while Cap movie is still years away.

Iron Man was just starting to realy get hot... post CW he's getting other books and all sorts of stuff. Killing him off during CW woud be a waste.

Storywise, I do think there's some merrit to kiling him. But long term, there's far more marvel can do with Stark alive than dead since he was realy starting to become an uber high profie character.

[engen500]

I'd rather have seen more heroes die off...even if they were D list characters...it would have shown how huge the Marvel universe is....In real life people die in War, everyone in the Marvel Universe can't stay alive forever...

I'd rather have seen Iron Man and Cap face off. Captain America should've let Tony get the last blow in and went fugitive from Iron Man and the Initiative, or fled back in time to try to prevent the war... instead of getting shot by a coward..

Iron Man is a capitalistic billionaire arms dealer with no powers, Captain America should have put him in his place...

sorry I still have pent up aggression towards Iron Man..my bad

[XPac]

I'd rather have seen more heroes die off...even if they were D list characters...it would have shown how huge the Marvel universe is....In real life people die in War, everyone in the Marvel Universe can't stay alive forever...

I'd rather have seen Iron Man and Cap face off. Captain America should've let Tony get the last blow in and went fugitive from Iron Man and the Initiative, or fled back in time to try to prevent the war... instead of getting shot by a coward..

Iron Man is a capitalistic billionaire arms dealer with no powers, Captain America should have put him in his place...

sorry I still have pent up aggression towards Iron Man..my bad

We got rows and rows of D listers dying in Infinate Crisis... I'm honestly not sure it did the event or DC in general any favors. I think one or two meaninful deaths get the point across without wasting so much potential.

[engen500]

We got rows and rows of D listers dying in Infinate Crisis... I'm honestly not sure it did the event or DC in general any favors. I think one or two meaninful deaths get the point across without wasting so much potential.

yeah maybe you're right

[SquidSquod]

Iron Man was just starting to realy get hot... post CW he's getting other books and all sorts of stuff. Killing him off during CW woud be a waste.

Storywise, I do think there's some merrit to kiling him. But long term, there's far more marvel can do with Stark alive than dead since he was realy starting to become an uber high profie character.

If Tony takes the bullet for Steve, it will send some messages:
1. He values friendship above all, and iterates that he always want to have peaceful solution.
2. Bravery which has been Iron Man theme from a long time is shown again.
3. Extremis. He could be clinically dead for a month but his regenerative power kicks him back eventually.

[SquidSquod]

I'd rather have seen Iron Man and Cap face off. Captain America should've let Tony get the last blow in and went fugitive from Iron Man and the Initiative, or fled back in time to try to prevent the war... instead of getting shot by a coward..


Iron Man can't face off against Captain America 1 vs 1. The only way Cap can face off Iron Man is when he's incapacitated or unarmored, like in CW 7. Shellhead has many ways to wreak havoc, including taking his shield off out of commission or increase the density of his armor so punches against him will hurt so much.

[Berkey]

The only way they could have killed any other A listers would have been to make the story itself a much more compelling read not just anti/pros ending with a typical ending. The road to civil war should have been a seperate mini series with the New Warriors mesing up and IM talking with the gov. and showing both sides choosing which diretion to go. Then issue one could have started with a big battle and everything after that could fall into place (side jumping, new plot twists and then some deaths)

[engen500]

I just miss the 1980's crossover feel...that Secret Wars Mutant Massacre type feeling comics gave me...we need dat

[Adon]

The mention of the whole 'registration is largely ignored now' kind of burns me up. What I mean is this... friends went at each others throats at the drop of a hat over it. Captain America ultimately died because of it. There are a whole lot of heroes who are tainted in the eyes of one camp or the other because of it. It was the most divisive thing to happen to the Marvel Universe, well, ever.

And now basically it's being treated as though it never happened save in one or two titles?

Okay. I hated Civil War. Still do. I hated how people acted out of character left and right because the plot dictated it. I hated how easily friends turned on each other. But, Marvel was bound and determined to go with Civil War. So to this I say that the new status quo had BETTER be worth all the crud that happened to get there.

Instead, it's largely ignored, Captain America and Bill Foster basically died for nothing? To this day it's hard to find what former friends think of each other now... which in Avengers titles one would think it was a key point?

Sadly, it seems that this is par for Marvel's course lately.

[TotalWorldDomination]

The mention of the whole 'registration is largely ignored now' kind of burns me up. What I mean is this... friends went at each others throats at the drop of a hat over it. Captain America ultimately died because of it. There are a whole lot of heroes who are tainted in the eyes of one camp or the other because of it. It was the most divisive thing to happen to the Marvel Universe, well, ever.

And now basically it's being treated as though it never happened save in one or two titles?

Okay. I hated Civil War. Still do. I hated how people acted out of character left and right because the plot dictated it. I hated how easily friends turned on each other. But, Marvel was bound and determined to go with Civil War. So to this I say that the new status quo had BETTER be worth all the crud that happened to get there.

Instead, it's largely ignored, Captain America and Bill Foster basically died for nothing? To this day it's hard to find what former friends think of each other now... which in Avengers titles one would think it was a key point?

Sadly, it seems that this is par for Marvel's course lately.


I 100% totaly agree. I'm getting more and more fed up with marvel's disregard of there own in-universe ideas. It's pathetic that they can't keep the concepts behind CW going for a whole year before dropping them like a bad cold.:mad:

[XPac]

The mention of the whole 'registration is largely ignored now' kind of burns me up. What I mean is this... friends went at each others throats at the drop of a hat over it. Captain America ultimately died because of it. There are a whole lot of heroes who are tainted in the eyes of one camp or the other because of it. It was the most divisive thing to happen to the Marvel Universe, well, ever.

And now basically it's being treated as though it never happened save in one or two titles?

Okay. I hated Civil War. Still do. I hated how people acted out of character left and right because the plot dictated it. I hated how easily friends turned on each other. But, Marvel was bound and determined to go with Civil War. So to this I say that the new status quo had BETTER be worth all the crud that happened to get there.

Instead, it's largely ignored, Captain America and Bill Foster basically died for nothing? To this day it's hard to find what former friends think of each other now... which in Avengers titles one would think it was a key point?

Sadly, it seems that this is par for Marvel's course lately.

As far as the relationships go, there's STILL a good deal of mistrust between Stark and the anti's. You can still see that. On a personal level a lot of that is still unresolved. Heroes are still working each other BUT they're not all buddies again. Plenty of hard feelings still all around.

And the gods honest truth is Cap did die for nothing. He died before Red Skull wanted to kill him. It technicaly wasn't CW related, though CW did leave him vulerable enough for Skull to get to him.

[CMBMOOL]

The mention of the whole 'registration is largely ignored now' kind of burns me up. What I mean is this... friends went at each others throats at the drop of a hat over it. Captain America ultimately died because of it. There are a whole lot of heroes who are tainted in the eyes of one camp or the other because of it. It was the most divisive thing to happen to the Marvel Universe, well, ever.

And now basically it's being treated as though it never happened save in one or two titles?

Okay. I hated Civil War. Still do. I hated how people acted out of character left and right because the plot dictated it. I hated how easily friends turned on each other. But, Marvel was bound and determined to go with Civil War. So to this I say that the new status quo had BETTER be worth all the crud that happened to get there.

Instead, it's largely ignored, Captain America and Bill Foster basically died for nothing? To this day it's hard to find what former friends think of each other now... which in Avengers titles one would think it was a key point?

Sadly, it seems that this is par for Marvel's course lately.

You have pointed out some strong points, but I think that Stark has ignored Registration is due to the fact that it was him and the Illuminati that gave the Skrulls the idea to invade earth in the first place. :p


Beside you can see that within Captian America, that Tony is trying his best to live up to Cap's last wishes and he trying his best to make amends to some of the heroes that he messed up during the war. :(

I ask all of you who fault is it that the heroes aren't going after the anti-regs ?


Who outside the Thunderbolts, have tried to go after the heroes and successfully captured them ?

I have to say that Civil War was weak if Marvel isn't living up to it word of changing the landscape of the heroes lives. :(

[TotalWorldDomination]

You have pointed out some strong points, but I think that Stark has ignored Registration is due to the fact that it was him and the Illuminati that gave the Skrulls the idea to invade earth in the first place. :p


Beside you can see that within Captian America, that Tony is trying his best to live up to Cap's last wishes and he trying his best to make amends to some of the heroes that he messed up during the war. :(

I ask all of you who fault is it that the heroes aren't going after the anti-regs ?


Who outside the Thunderbolts, have tried to go after the heroes and successfully captured them ?

I have to say that Civil War was weak if Marvel isn't living up to it word of changing the landscape of the heroes lives. :(

I think that a while ago a group of writers who are PERSONALLY anti-registration and had the majority of there "favorite" characters go anti-reg (I'm looking at you Bendis and Brubaker!) have decided to water down the concepts behind Civil War because they didn't like the idea that heroes would have to go after heroes. Bendis has said he wanted to do a "Marvel Universe Vs. SHIELD" story and that idea became the basis for Civil War because it would make no sense for some heroes to not side with SHIELD.

Because these authors went in thinking that the Anti-Reg side was right, and there is a view that Tony Stark needs to be "redeemed" they have been doing this by rather unsubtle turning him Anti-Reg, or at the least into an Anti-Reg sympathizer. At the same time the only heroes that marvel has seen fit to send after Renegade Combatants are the Thunderbolts, a group that in its current form is not remotely sympathetic and simply reinforces the concept that the SHRA supporters are "bad guys."

Of course Marvel has decided that the Post-CW Marvel U will not look ANYTHING like the old Marvel U... unless they decide to create a loophole that allows it to work exactly like before. Thor is a wonderful example, as is Daredevil. In Thor, they have tony get slapped around then quickly come up with a way that lets Thor act as an unregistered walking nuke, something that CW was supposed to put an end to. Daredevil... well... they just seem to not CARE that Daredevil is wandering around unopposed. Danny Rand is widely known to be Iron Fist, but Iron Man made only the most feeble attempts to deal with him (Why not go after the NA's again with a regular telemetric scanner you dope! They can suponea that all they want!).

These excuses go double for everyone else. You've got Moon Knight running around with a registration card, doing exactly what he wanted to do before. You've got the New Avengers who have met up with the Mighty Avengers twice that we know of and NOT BEEN ARRESTED BY THEM. You've got jerks like Justice, late of the baby-killing new warriors, who has decided that the Junior Guardsman program is akin to the Hitler youth, never mind that he's in charge OF RECRUITING FOR THE INITIATIVE. Everywhere, from Avengers: the Initiative, to Captain America, to Iron Man the initiative and registration gets smacked around. lots of little loopholes and cheats, and no real action in a positive direction.

The Fact is Marvel will NEVER fully implement the SHRA, because they don't care to. It would mean the end of most of the supers in the MU, because most cannot fight against an overwhelming SHIELD manhunt against them. It would also mean the end of most supervillians, as taskforces like Ms. Marvel's would clearly have been set up in order to hunt them down. Spider-Man can claim that the Initiative has cleaned up the streets of new york all he wants, the fact that he's going to be fighting supervillains 3 times a month imply that they are not totally successful.

The fact is, I can easily forsee a time (soon) when Marvel will just chuck the idea of an SHRA and have the pendulum swing in a totaly different direction. Few supers will work for the goverment and you'll have a plauge of "superheroic" individuals operating in an Iron Age Late-80's environment where everything is dark and gritty.

Still doesn't change the fact that marvel impotently promised us a post-Civil war world and only delivered halfway. Kinda sad when your own ideas can't even ferment, eh?

[XPac]

I think that a while ago a group of writers who are PERSONALLY anti-registration and had the majority of there "favorite" characters go anti-reg (I'm looking at you Bendis and Brubaker!) have decided to water down the concepts behind Civil War because they didn't like the idea that heroes would have to go after heroes. Bendis has said he wanted to do a "Marvel Universe Vs. SHIELD" story and that idea became the basis for Civil War because it would make no sense for some heroes to not side with SHIELD.

Because these authors went in thinking that the Anti-Reg side was right, and there is a view that Tony Stark needs to be "redeemed" they have been doing this by rather unsubtle turning him Anti-Reg, or at the least into an Anti-Reg sympathizer. At the same time the only heroes that marvel has seen fit to send after Renegade Combatants are the Thunderbolts, a group that in its current form is not remotely sympathetic and simply reinforces the concept that the SHRA supporters are "bad guys."

Of course Marvel has decided that the Post-CW Marvel U will not look ANYTHING like the old Marvel U... unless they decide to create a loophole that allows it to work exactly like before. Thor is a wonderful example, as is Daredevil. In Thor, they have tony get slapped around then quickly come up with a way that lets Thor act as an unregistered walking nuke, something that CW was supposed to put an end to. Daredevil... well... they just seem to not CARE that Daredevil is wandering around unopposed. Danny Rand is widely known to be Iron Fist, but Iron Man made only the most feeble attempts to deal with him (Why not go after the NA's again with a regular telemetric scanner you dope! They can suponea that all they want!).

These excuses go double for everyone else. You've got Moon Knight running around with a registration card, doing exactly what he wanted to do before. You've got the New Avengers who have met up with the Mighty Avengers twice that we know of and NOT BEEN ARRESTED BY THEM. You've got jerks like Justice, late of the baby-killing new warriors, who has decided that the Junior Guardsman program is akin to the Hitler youth, never mind that he's in charge OF RECRUITING FOR THE INITIATIVE. Everywhere, from Avengers: the Initiative, to Captain America, to Iron Man the initiative and registration gets smacked around. lots of little loopholes and cheats, and no real action in a positive direction.

The Fact is Marvel will NEVER fully implement the SHRA, because they don't care to. It would mean the end of most of the supers in the MU, because most cannot fight against an overwhelming SHIELD manhunt against them. It would also mean the end of most supervillians, as taskforces like Ms. Marvel's would clearly have been set up in order to hunt them down. Spider-Man can claim that the Initiative has cleaned up the streets of new york all he wants, the fact that he's going to be fighting supervillains 3 times a month imply that they are not totally successful.

The fact is, I can easily forsee a time (soon) when Marvel will just chuck the idea of an SHRA and have the pendulum swing in a totaly different direction. Few supers will work for the goverment and you'll have a plauge of "superheroic" individuals operating in an Iron Age Late-80's environment where everything is dark and gritty.

Still doesn't change the fact that marvel impotently promised us a post-Civil war world and only delivered halfway. Kinda sad when your own ideas can't even ferment, eh?

Honestly, I'm not sure the idea of the registration was ever suppossed to work.

Comic book writers STILL want these big spectacular battles with buildings crumbling and cars being thrown around.

They still want villains walking around the streets, because heroes need people to fight.

And yes, they do occasionally want heroes working together without one group turning around and attacking the other afterwards.

Had the registration competely suceeded, it would have eliminated a lot of the things which are stables of comic book storytelling. Plus, we knew going in government was both corrupt and incompetent, so it's not like anyone should have honesty expected this to really work.

The SHRA was a way to get us the Initiative. It did create a new status quo for many aspects of the MU. But in the same breathe, there are other aspects of the MU who they don't want hindered storywise by the SHRA, so they're letting that go too.

And to me it's not even that unrealistic. I've been saying all along that similiar to a lot of the 9/11 stuff we saw in real life, eventually the public outrage went away and they moved on. That's all the Stamford stuff really was... public hysteria. And that inevitably fades. The heroes NEVER wanted to chase after other heroes to begin with, so they're all too happy to look the other way and spend their time instead chasing after actual villains that are actual threats.

[Excelsior]

The sad thing is how the whole registration plot has been swept under the rug. They should have kept it going, leading up to the Skrull invasion. Then with the reveal of a Skrull conspiracy to control superheroes--the registration act is then amended and our heroes are allowed more freedooms. Shield then creates a watchdog agency to monitor superheroes.

[TotalWorldDomination]

Honestly, I'm not sure the idea of the registration was ever suppossed to work.

Comic book writers STILL want these big spectacular battles with buildings crumbling and cars being thrown around.

They still want villains walking around the streets, because heroes need people to fight.

And yes, they do occasionally want heroes working together without one group turning around and attacking the other afterwards.

Had the registration competely suceeded, it would have eliminated a lot of the things which are stables of comic book storytelling. Plus, we knew going in government was both corrupt and incompetent, so it's not like anyone should have honesty expected this to really work.

I honestly thought that was the point. To change the status quo so radicaly that nothing would be the same again. Silly me for believing marvel.

The SHRA was a way to get us the Initiative. It did create a new status quo for many aspects of the MU. But in the same breathe, there are other aspects of the MU who they don't want hindered storywise by the SHRA, so they're letting that go too.

So much for having universal cohesion. Marvel is cherry-picking what gets affected by the Civil War and what dosn't. that would have been like DC saying that JSA and Shazam would have continued publishing the same storylines after the original crisis. It's idiotic and shows a lack of comittment to the ideas that they have created. It's cowardly of marvel to NOT change every aspect of the universe when they SAID it would change every aspect of the universe.

And lets point out what marvel did in the days leading up to the ending of the CW. Iron Man's side did not have to win for the initiative to exist. It was in no way directly tied to the events of CW. It's disingenuous for marvel to point to that and say "that's the post-CW world" when that could have happened without the civil war. The Civil war was registration, pure and simple.

And to me it's not even that unrealistic. I've been saying all along that similiar to a lot of the 9/11 stuff we saw in real life, eventually the public outrage went away and they moved on. That's all the Stamford stuff really was... public hysteria. And that inevitably fades. The heroes NEVER wanted to chase after other heroes to begin with, so they're all too happy to look the other way and spend their time instead chasing after actual villains that are actual threats.

And yet, if someone was on a terrorist watchlist, FBI agents would arrest them- no matter what they were doing. Unregistered Superhumans are federal, even international, criminals. The idea that public hysteria fading would change that is not only unrealistic, it's absurd.

Public wariness of terrorism has not gone away. I doubt if tomorrow the Department of Homeland Security were to suddenly stop monitoring potential terrorists and instead concentrate on national disasters you wouldn't see massive uproar and anger from both the public and the politicians that represent them. Ditto for registration. Iron Man needs to be fired, and soon. :mad:

[XPac]

I honestly thought that was the point. To change the status quo so radicaly that nothing would be the same again. Silly me for believing marvel.



So much for having universal cohesion. Marvel is cherry-picking what gets affected by the Civil War and what dosn't. that would have been like DC saying that JSA and Shazam would have continued publishing the same storylines after the original crisis. It's idiotic and shows a lack of comittment to the ideas that they have created. It's cowardly of marvel to NOT change every aspect of the universe when they SAID it would change every aspect of the universe.

And lets point out what marvel did in the days leading up to the ending of the CW. Iron Man's side did not have to win for the initiative to exist. It was in no way directly tied to the events of CW. It's disingenuous for marvel to point to that and say "that's the post-CW world" when that could have happened without the civil war. The Civil war was registration, pure and simple.



And yet, if someone was on a terrorist watchlist, FBI agents would arrest them- no matter what they were doing. Unregistered Superhumans are federal, even international, criminals. The idea that public hysteria fading would change that is not only unrealistic, it's absurd.

Public wariness of terrorism has not gone away. I doubt if tomorrow the Department of Homeland Security were to suddenly stop monitoring potential terrorists and instead concentrate on national disasters you wouldn't see massive uproar and anger from both the public and the politicians that represent them. Ditto for registration. Iron Man needs to be fired, and soon. :mad:

Marvel wouldn't change the status quo so radically that nothing would be the same... because plenty of people like plenty of things that existed prior to CW. No reason to throw out the baby with the bath water.

As for your terrorist analogy... You have to stop for a moment and consider that the public has been living with the heroes for decades. They've done a very good job. You're equating them to terrorists when they're in fact heroes that have saved a lot of lives time and time again, even taking into account the collateral damage.

Not everything of course has gone back to how it was before... but the parania about it is largely gone. As long as the heroes continue to do their job well (like they have been for the past few decades), then I think the public and government are justified in largely turning their attention to actual threats.

I look at it this way... at this point all the heroes that are getting the free pass are ones that have already proven how good they are. And Spiderman aside, their identities are known. So nothing is tangibly gained by having them register. Certainly nothing is gained by putting them in jail when they are out there doing good. Everyone knows who DD is so they can go after him if they really NEED to... but as long as he's out there doing good, then you're not doing anyone except the villains a favor by locking him up.

That largely applies to the A and B listers that SHIELD is just looking the other way with. There are D listers that are arguably less competent... but those are the people the TBolts are going after.

So the present system still has a mechanism for going after the potentially dangerous less competent heroes, while the ones that would have passed their liscensing anyways are out there doing exactly what they would be doing if they were registered anyways. I think that works well enough for everyone all around.

[filterpunk]

On some level, I wish that Civil War had been used to kill off a number of the more useless Marvel characters. A few oldies might remember the Scourge of the Underworld storyline that ran in Captain America way back, which resulted in about 20 characters being knocked off.

Subjective preferences aside, it would've been a nice way to clean up some bad ideas from the 90's that are still floating around. There are tons of these "random person in stupid armor, prowling the mean streets" or "alien symbiote vampire - omgscary!" characters that I'd love to see get knocked off and put away for good. I suppose you could say this was done with the New Warriors and Carnage, but it doesn't really count when they just toss in a bunch of newer, equally forgettable characters, and have them fill an equally worthless niche in the MU.

For what it's worth, I did like most of Civil War and if anything, I'd say Maria Hill is the best thing to come out of it. She's a nice change of pace from the ever-predictable Nick Fury.

[filterpunk]

Honestly, I'm not sure the idea of the registration was ever suppossed to work.
More importantly, it really can't. At best, it can act as a plot device for the 6-12 months, but beyond that, people are looking for a sense of permanence that's rarely feasible. The registration plot is slowly being retired because, like our own political system, the foundation of it demands for changes to occur at periodic intervals.

[Adon]

TWD got it in one... the issue is that if having the initiative was point B... it seems like an awful waste that a whole lot of character assassination went on to get there from point A. A lot, and I mean a LOT of things that stretched suspension of disbelief to its breaking point took place in the Civil War in order for the plot to work. A lot of characters who would normally have talked or tried to refrain from fighting immediately went in swinging (while I'm personally Anti-reg, I fully admit that it happened on both sides). So now there is a contingent of fans who regard Iron Man, Ms. Marvel and company as fascists. Another views Captain America and the New Avengers as irresponsible anarchists. Both are labels which I think are an uneasy fit for any of the Marvel heroes. Yet they acted in this manner because Millar wrote them that way.

So now it's done, and it left a bad taste in a lot of mouths. Which makes me reiterate the point... what was the end result that required something so drastic to occur, and was it worth it? It's been quickly realized that a lot of the action that makes super hero comics fun would be nullified by the SHRA. So now it's ignored? I mean, in the first Mighty Avengers a whole truckload of property damage happened, without a comment which implies business as usual.

Ultimately, it is as TWD mentioned, Marvel trying to cherry pick when the SHRA is an issue. In some comics, it looms constantly (Initiative, New Warriors, Thunderbolts). In others, it is ignored where it would reasonably be at least a factor (Thor, Daredevil, even Mighty Avengers it often comes off as an afterthought). Which to me says that overall, it just wasn't worth the gutter that many of the Marvel heroes were run through. In the end of the day, it's much like it was before, save that many of the Marvel heroes are a lot less likeable afterwards than they were going in.

[XPac]

TWD got it in one... the issue is that if having the initiative was point B... it seems like an awful waste that a whole lot of character assassination went on to get there from point A. A lot, and I mean a LOT of things that stretched suspension of disbelief to its breaking point took place in the Civil War in order for the plot to work. A lot of characters who would normally have talked or tried to refrain from fighting immediately went in swinging (while I'm personally Anti-reg, I fully admit that it happened on both sides). So now there is a contingent of fans who regard Iron Man, Ms. Marvel and company as fascists. Another views Captain America and the New Avengers as irresponsible anarchists. Both are labels which I think are an uneasy fit for any of the Marvel heroes. Yet they acted in this manner because Millar wrote them that way.

So now it's done, and it left a bad taste in a lot of mouths. Which makes me reiterate the point... what was the end result that required something so drastic to occur, and was it worth it? It's been quickly realized that a lot of the action that makes super hero comics fun would be nullified by the SHRA. So now it's ignored? I mean, in the first Mighty Avengers a whole truckload of property damage happened, without a comment which implies business as usual.

Ultimately, it is as TWD mentioned, Marvel trying to cherry pick when the SHRA is an issue. In some comics, it looms constantly (Initiative, New Warriors, Thunderbolts). In others, it is ignored where it would reasonably be at least a factor (Thor, Daredevil, even Mighty Avengers it often comes off as an afterthought). Which to me says that overall, it just wasn't worth the gutter that many of the Marvel heroes were run through. In the end of the day, it's much like it was before, save that many of the Marvel heroes are a lot less likeable afterwards than they were going in.

In regards to the question of whether or not it was worth it... there's 2 ways to look at that. We can look at it from the perspective of the characters in the comics, and from marvels.

From the perspective of the characters in the book, even Iron Man himself said that it wasn't worth it. Some good has come out of it of curse... a lot of bad did too. By looking the other way, I guess we can sort of get a compromise in that there's still the Initiative, and still unregistered heroes doing their thing without government hounding them.

From the perspective of Marvel, I'd argue it was probably worth it. It elevated the Iron Man character, and created a lot of new books that are really good (Avengers: Initiative, New Thunderbolts, Illuminati). There were a lot of heroes that were dragged through the mud... but since sales are strong I think we can assume the fans that were turned off by it weren't turned off enough to completely bail on Marvel in any large numbers.

What they did was controversial, but it got them to where they needed to go.

[Shade 20x6]

Spider-Man.

He's essentially dead now, anyway.

[CMBMOOL]

In regards to the question of whether or not it was worth it... there's 2 ways to look at that. We can look at it from the perspective of the characters in the comics, and from marvels.

From the perspective of the characters in the book, even Iron Man himself said that it wasn't worth it. Some good has come out of it of curse... a lot of bad did too. By looking the other way, I guess we can sort of get a compromise in that there's still the Initiative, and still unregistered heroes doing their thing without government hounding them.

From the perspective of Marvel, I'd argue it was probably worth it. It elevated the Iron Man character, and created a lot of new books that are really good (Avengers: Initiative, New Thunderbolts, Illuminati). There were a lot of heroes that were dragged through the mud... but since sales are strong I think we can assume the fans that were turned off by it weren't turned off enough to completely bail on Marvel in any large numbers.

What they did was controversial, but it got them to where they needed to go.

Well with Secret Invasion coming up it could either bring them into a better compromise like you suggested Xpac or it full destory the remaining trust that Iron Man has with the heroes, if the Skrulls reveal that it was Iron man and the Illuminati that gave them suggestion to invade Earth. :(

[XPac]

Well with Secret Invasion coming up it could either bring them into a better compromise like you suggested Xpac or it full destory the remaining trust that Iron Man has with the heroes, if the Skrulls reveal that it was Iron man and the Illuminati that gave them suggestion to invade Earth. :(

That will probably turn out similiar to WWH.

At least indirectly, Stark and the Illuminati did create the situation which led to WWH. So there was a bit of resentment towards Stark and the Illuminati for that... but ultimately they helped to save the day. End result... Stark doens't regain anyone's trust, but he proves he's can still be a hero.

I imagine the same will happen here. Again, people will realize that Stark and the Illuminati to some degree may have indirectly caused this... but they'll likely help in fixing the situation too.

The relationship with the heroes won't get any better, but it probably won't get any worse either. They'l roughly break even.

[Bryson the Red]

Captain America