Given what we're seeing now, was it really a good idea to kill Ben Reilly off?

[[]D[]/\/\[]D @ Nite/So-tite]

It seems with recent events, Marvel is trying to return Peter back to the original status quo, retconning a few things here and there, Pete and MJ's marriage, etc.

I think if there had been another Spider-Man around (in the form of Scarlet Spider being distanced from the Clone Saga), it would have given Marvel a Spidey to experiment on, including being used instead for changes to the Spider stories that have generated debate (i.e organic web-shooters, the totem thing, joining the Avengers, etc). On the reverse, it may have given them a "Status Quo Spidey" while allowing Peter to progress (marriage, Avengers and all, and maybe not going through with the miscarriage).

Maybe if Ben was still around, One More Day would have never happened. :confused:

Any thoughts on this?

[ZT4]

Putting Ben through Editorial's glue-sniffing would have made most fans welcome his death as an alternative.

[Mister Mets]

I think there's more of an appeal to Spider-Man joining the Avengers than his clone joining the Avengers, something which highlights one of Ben Reily's flaws: he makes Marvel's flagship character less unique.

Marvel's plan with Ben Reily was to make him the status quo Spidey while Peter progressed, but it failed for a variety of reasons, including the way Ben's supporting cast just wasn't as compelling as Peter's.

[ZT4]

Delilah could of been more than just a Rose heavy, but beyond her first few skirmishes with him, she was'nt around long enough, Ben was dead by the time she got heavier exposure

[[]D[]/\/\[]D @ Nite/So-tite]

I think there's more of an appeal to Spider-Man joining the Avengers than his clone joining the Avengers, something which highlights one of Ben Reily's flaws: he makes Marvel's flagship character less unique.

Marvel's plan with Ben Reily was to make him the status quo Spidey while Peter progressed, but it failed for a variety of reasons, including the way Ben's supporting cast just wasn't as compelling as Peter's.

I think the problem with that was that they were trying to make Ben be Spider-Man permanently (along with trying to make him be the ORIGINAL Peter Parker)

But if Ben remained Peter's version of "U.S Agent" or "War Machine" it could have worked out, including doing separate stories with his supporting cast.

I'm not sure if you can link to another forum, but this thread has some ideas on how Ben could have helped things:

http://wizarduniverse.invisionzone.com/index.php?showtopic=16978&st=20

[Ben Fox]

I agree with that. Having the two co-exist would have been great.

[Alan2099]

But if Ben remained Peter's version of "U.S Agent" or "War Machine" it could have worked out, including doing separate stories with his supporting cast.
And just stop and think about everything they';ve gone though over the years.

[XPac]

In hindsight I DO think the Clone Sage was a better compromise to the whole marriage issue. Everyone wins in a way.

Peter and MJ are happily married, while Ben is the single spidey writers and editors wanted.

Had the story been handled better, without outside forces messing with it, I think it could have worked. But in hindsight editorial and marketing issues definately make the idea doomed from the start.

[Noronha]

Let him stay dead

[Micro]

Killing off Ben was a stupid idea. But bringing him back would probably be a very bad aswell.

I think an interesting way to handel it, would be to have Ben of been revealed to be a mixture of both Harry Osborn's and Peter's DNA. This would have allowed him to not just be a Spiderman clone, but still have strong ties to Peter, while being an independant character at the same time.

In the end, Marvel screwed up...They wanted something and didn't care how they got it, and Ben suffered. Just as today, they got what they wanted with OMD and the fans suffered.

[Ben Fox]

Well, if Harry's back among the living, who's to say Ben Reilly isn't, either?

[Micro]

Well, if Harry's back among the living, who's to say Ben Reilly isn't, either?

or Gwen Stacy....

You know they will bring her back. The reasons being:

*Joe Quesada wants to bring her back.

*Jeph Loeb and Scott Campbell are working on a Spiderman storyline that will be in the main Spiderman books, that features both Gwen Stacy and Mary Jane. Quesada has said "Loeb is telling the story he wants to tell." And Loeb previously wrote a Spiderman story centered around Gwen.

[JamesOliva]

The editors had what they wanted, a carefree, single Spider-Man. The problem was, he wasn't Peter Parker. Even if at the time he WAS Peter Parker, we had a blonde dude named Ben Rielly with a different costume and different supporting cast and we had it for almost a year. Sales dropped, the creators want Peter Parker back (Dan Jurgens). The whole thing was destined to fail just like all of the other DeFalco era "replacement heroes" like War Machine and Thunderstrike.

[Noronha]

or Gwen Stacy....

You know they will bring her back. The reasons being:

*Joe Quesada wants to bring her back.

*Jeph Loeb and Scott Campbell are working on a Spiderman storyline that will be in the main Spiderman books, that features both Gwen Stacy and Mary Jane. Quesada has said "Loeb is telling the story he wants to tell." And Loeb previously wrote a Spiderman story centered around Gwen.

I can see it now(Joe about Gwen being alive):

"Well doesn´t it invalidate ASM 122-123?

Joe-No,see it happened it´s just no one remembers it.

But if she is alives doesn´t it contradict the story in which she died

Joe-No because it still happened,Oh what the hell it´s magic i don´t have to explain it"

[[]D[]/\/\[]D @ Nite/So-tite]

The editors had what they wanted, a carefree, single Spider-Man. The problem was, he wasn't Peter Parker. Even if at the time he WAS Peter Parker, we had a blonde dude named Ben Rielly with a different costume and different supporting cast and we had it for almost a year. Sales dropped, the creators want Peter Parker back (Dan Jurgens). The whole thing was destined to fail just like all of the other DeFalco era "replacement heroes" like War Machine and Thunderstrike.

That was the problem... using him to replace Peter. If he had remained a separate character and Peter still remained as Spidey in the long run (even if Ben was Spidey for a little while before reverting back to the Scarlet Spider persona), things would have worked out. They he might still step in from time to time to help Peter out, in terms of being Spider-Man, while Peter was going through some issues.

Plus, like I said, he could either been used as a "status quo Spidey" or instead be used for later controversial story ideas like organics/totem/mystic origin/etc. So in other words, Marvel would have already had their single/status quo "Spidey", thus preventing the need for OMD or other things that negate Peter's progression, or have the character progression ideas for Peter that pissed fans of be used for Ben instead. If it seems apparent that certain ideas for Peter are beginning to go into the WTF-were-they-thinking territory, they could alternatively be used for Ben. In turn Peter would still be Spider-man, but without all the negative aspects from later stories that angers fans. Whatever happens, the result is fans getting less pissed off at what Marvel does to Peter's storyline. Everyone gets what they want. ****, Ben may still be needed to prevent OMD-type editorial situations in the future.

[Phil Hunn]

Ben coming back as the Spider-based equivalent of Thunderstrike would probably be a bad idea.

Especially in this rather frosty and anti-clone editorial climate..

[brahmabull]

Leave him dead. It was a dum idea to have him as Spidey. He should have stayed dead back when Spidey threw him in the smoke stack back in 150. Everything dealing with all those clones was stupid.

[jackolover]

Well, if Harry's back among the living, who's to say Ben Reilly isn't, either?

Just speculating here. As of BND, Gwen Stacy still bought it, taking a dive off the Brooklyn Bridge, right? That means the Jackel was still pee'd with Peter Parker, whose DNA he had in a fridge. There is no reason why the Jackel didn't also make the clones of Gwen and Parker, and threw the fake clone down the chimney. Harry and Norman wouldn't have had any reason to punish Peter, because Harry didn't get pee'd with MJ marrying Peter, so what now? Ben is still riding around America, waiting for the trigger signal from the Jackel, to come home and start the Clone Saga? If that's the case, the Jackel should be ready in his pod, waiting to be re-born as well.

[Leocomix]

It's funny because Gerry Conway wrote the Clone Saga just so he could deal with fans outrage over the death of Gwen. He was making the point that she is dead guys and that's it. That effectively put an end to it (to the outrage) so much so that we have now an outrage when writers want to undo this story (that includes Sins Past which gives a different motive for killing Gwen). The new Clone Saga started another outrage. We're in the middle of another outrage. I wonder how Marvel will react to it (they plan stories a good year in advance). Conway falsely brought back Gwen so I guess they will falsely bring back the marriage.

[xarathos]

Hey, maybe neither of them are the real Peter Parker. Maybe the real Peter Parker lost his memory some years ago. Was taken out be a vengful villian, just so he could replace him and in the end kill him and the Ben Reilly clone off after he realizes who he is. But times had changed and Mary Jane had been living with a fake who acted nothing like our Peter Parker. This clone was so defective he revealed his identity to the world without much of a thought. Maybe Mary Jane herself was a clone of the original. Kept in a tube somewhere.

Hey, can you think of a better way out of this mess? I can't

[Jeff-X]

One of the things I've noticed a lot of Marvel writers complain about is they're not allowed to do much with the characters unless it's a character no one really cares about, and it's when these great writers have total freedom that great stories end up being told. Would Astonishing X-Men be as good is Whedon had to keep stopping to work in all the stuff that was happening in the other X titles?

Ben as Scarlet Spider, in his own title, while Peter continued as Spider-Man, could have given some writers the ability to go crazy writing epic stories while Spider-Man/Peter would maintain his status-quo. At some point, if all worked out, people would have really loved Ben, maybe to the point that in comparison with Peter they might have even liked Ben a tiny bit better, since Peter's status-quo would never get too messy. Then, if they really wanted to replace Peter so he could move on and raise a family, people would have liked Ben enough that they wouldn't have been so royally pissed with him taking over the identity of Spider-Man.

Personally I liked Ben a lot, even as Spider-Man as long as they checked in with Peter every so often to see how his life had grown beyond Spider-Man. I just hated the supporting cast at the Daily Grind. For example, Spider-Carnage was awesome, and Peter was there just as Peter. Same with the Onslaught tie ins, Peter was there, powerless, just as Peter Parker the man. I got that in a way they sort of envied each other's life. The only problem was when Peter was around Ben never felt permanent. Giving Peter a perfect life for a change, no powers, great marriage and raising a daughter, that would have distanced Peter from 'Spider-Man' a great deal and made Ben feel more at home for me.

[Micro]

Hey, maybe neither of them are the real Peter Parker. Maybe the real Peter Parker lost his memory some years ago. Was taken out be a vengful villian, just so he could replace him and in the end kill him and the Ben Reilly clone off after he realizes who he is. But times had changed and Mary Jane had been living with a fake who acted nothing like our Peter Parker. This clone was so defective he revealed his identity to the world without much of a thought. Maybe Mary Jane herself was a clone of the original. Kept in a tube somewhere.

Hey, can you think of a better way out of this mess? I can't

Yes, this is what marvel should do. They should say that the Norman Osborn that was behind the whole clone saga is actually a clone created by the Jackel all those years ago, to help get revenge on Spiderman. That Norman then wanted to mess with Peter some more, so he lied about the real Aunt May dieing and lead Peter to a cloned Aunt May that he claimed was the real one.

The very first clone from the clone saga that was left to die in the smoke stack is revealed to be the one behind the Clone Saga, and he has slowly been seeking revenge agianst Peter all along. He tryes to kill MJ in an airplane crash, and then she is really kidnapped and cloned and the MJ we have now is the cloned one sent to mess with Peter.

However another Clone of Spiderman escapes the first clone thinking he is the real Spiderman. He goes on capture the real Peter Parker, thows him in a smoke stack and goes about stealing his life, not knowing both MJ and Aunt May are actually clones themselves.

As time goes on the first clone from the clone saga goes on to contiune messing with Peter's life, not knowing that the very clone that escaped from him in the first place is posing as Spiderman. The first clone triggers his cloned MJ's fake memories and enacts his evil plan called "Operation Sins Past" where he would create lies about Gwen Stacy. All the events that followed including the unmasking and making a deal with the devil happen with this cloned Spiderman who thinks he is the real Spiderman...

Meanwhile the real Peter Parker, discovers that truth that the real MJ is captured by the original clone from the first clone saga, and goes to search for her. He eventually finds her, defeats the clone, and runs off with MJ to create a new life. Peter has to go into hiding because his other clone is still in New York and just recently revealed his identity to the world. Because of this Peter decides that it is best to just let the Clone go on believing himself to be the real Peter and live his life out with the cloned Aunt May and cloned MJ...

We could then go back and follow the adventures of the REAL Peter Parker in a new book "Spiderman the hidden years."

[Leocomix]

I'm impressed.

[witchboy]

That it is a pretty good idea, I like it better than the magic retcons of OMD.

[xarathos]

Yes, scored with the idea.

[DeadXMan]

I would have him return as is successful evil twin brother (with goatee)

[Mister Mets]

Just speculating here. As of BND, Gwen Stacy still bought it, taking a dive off the Brooklyn Bridge, right? That means the Jackel was still pee'd with Peter Parker, whose DNA he had in a fridge. There is no reason why the Jackel didn't also make the clones of Gwen and Parker, and threw the fake clone down the chimney. Harry and Norman wouldn't have had any reason to punish Peter, because Harry didn't get pee'd with MJ marrying Peter, so what now? Ben is still riding around America, waiting for the trigger signal from the Jackel, to come home and start the Clone Saga? If that's the case, the Jackel should be ready in his pod, waiting to be re-born as well.

Interesting possibility.

Marvel does now have an opportunity to do the Clone Saga "right." Though there are many disadvantages to the approach. It should only be done if someone has a brilliant idea on how to do it.

Though Norman seems to be back in the US as evident by events in Thunderbolts.

[ZT4]

Compared to most of their attempts to get SPIDEY right for several years, the Clone Saga seems more enjoyable now

Really, when people say it was screwed up, there just thinking about Ben saying "you're the clone", take that and Maximum Clonage Alpha and everything to Omega away, and you've got one of the more progressive Spidey arcs of all time, if not the last time the character really moved forward.

[Phil Hunn]

Compared to most of their attempts to get SPIDEY right for several years, the Clone Saga seems more enjoyable now

Agreed. Before it went completely off the rails, it was good reading.

Really, when people say it was screwed up, there just thinking about Ben saying "you're the clone", take that and Maximum Clonage Alpha and everything to Omega away, and you've got one of the more progressive Spidey arcs of all time, if not the last time the character really moved forward.

Indeed. And that's really sad :(

[Mister Mets]

Compared to most of their attempts to get SPIDEY right for several years, the Clone Saga seems more enjoyable now

Really, when people say it was screwed up, there just thinking about Ben saying "you're the clone", take that and Maximum Clonage Alpha and everything to Omega away, and you've got one of the more progressive Spidey arcs of all time, if not the last time the character really moved forward.

That may explain the appeal of the clone saga to some readers.

[Micro]

Compared to most of their attempts to get SPIDEY right for several years, the Clone Saga seems more enjoyable now

Really, when people say it was screwed up, there just thinking about Ben saying "you're the clone", take that and Maximum Clonage Alpha and everything to Omega away, and you've got one of the more progressive Spidey arcs of all time, if not the last time the character really moved forward.

Yes I agree. Infact, without those things, I believe people would look back on the Clone Saga as one of the best Spiderman stories in his history.

[Mister Mets]

Yes I agree. Infact, without those things, I believe people would look back on the Clone Saga as one of the best Spiderman stories in his history.It's not one story though, it's a series of many many stories, best comparable to creative runs.

And in terms of creative runs I think a few will be rated higher....
Lee/ Ditko Amazing Spider-Man
Lee/ Romita Sr Amazing Spider-Man
Conway Amazing Spider-Man
Wein Amazing Spider-Man
Wolfman Amazing Spider-Man
Roger Stern Amazing Spider-Man/ Peter Parker the Spectacular Spider-Man
Bill Mantlo Peter Parker the Spectacular Spider-Man
Peter David Peter Parker the Spectacular Spider-Man
Tom Defalco Amazing Spider-Man
Micheline/ Mcfarlane Amazing Spider-Man
Dematteis Spectacular Spider-Man
Jenkins Peter Parker Spider-Man
Bendis/ Bagley Ultimate Spider-Man
The Spider-Man movies
Defalco Spider-Girl
JMS Amazing Spider-Man

[Micro]

It's not one story though, it's a series of many many stories, best comparable to creative runs.

And in terms of creative runs I think a few will be rated higher....
Lee/ Ditko Amazing Spider-Man
Lee/ Romita Sr Amazing Spider-Man
Conway Amazing Spider-Man
Wein Amazing Spider-Man
Wolfman Amazing Spider-Man
Roger Stern Amazing Spider-Man/ Peter Parker the Spectacular Spider-Man
Bill Mantlo Peter Parker the Spectacular Spider-Man
Peter David Peter Parker the Spectacular Spider-Man
Tom Defalco Amazing Spider-Man
Micheline/ Mcfarlane Amazing Spider-Man
Dematteis Spectacular Spider-Man
Jenkins Peter Parker Spider-Man
Bendis/ Bagley Ultimate Spider-Man
The Spider-Man movies
Defalco Spider-Girl
JMS Amazing Spider-Man

Well, I don't agree with all of those, but even if that's true, being the 17th best Spiderman story isn't too bad is it?

[matthewaos]

The clone sagag was good even with the "you are the clone" thing. For me, it made Peter more tragic. Yeah, I could live with it, who cares if the guy we love is the clone or the original? He is the guy we follow all these years and love him! Does it care if he is a clone?
The bad things were the bad writing in many stories, even before that issue, the stupid ways they found to convince the readers that what they are going to do is real, and everything after that: Maximum clonage (just stupid), the books not progressing at all, when they had their new character but he was Scarlet Spider and Peter was still around, the Scarlet Spider gimmick, and by then everyone hated everything, even though the Ben Spider-Man stories are not bad.

[ZT4]

The clone sagag was good even with the "you are the clone" thing. For me, it made Peter more tragic. Yeah, I could live with it, who cares if the guy we love is the clone or the original? He is the guy we follow all these years and love him! Does it care if he is a clone?

I think MJ said it best when she told Peter that there was no doubt in her mind he was the real deal. I think it made Ben look more like a dope than Peter to think from test results he was the real deal

...And the way the revelation was stated made no sense.

Peter: Our results are identicial

Ben: Then there's no doubt about it, I'm the real one

Yeah, THAT was bad writing.

Ben had a better supporting cast for his Spidey tenure than his own life, Jimmy Six, Delilah etc, they were very different because these characters had nomadic lifestyles that parraled Bens. Peter and MJ's supporting cast were all domestic and weren't wayward.

Nobody at the Daily Grind was an outsider at all, so it hurt Ben when he had to play Peter Parker, and that's why the core of the titles had to depend on Peter, MJ, and their own cast again.

[matthewaos]

Peter: Our results are identicial

Ben: Then there's no doubt about it, I'm the real one

Yeah, I fall to understand this sentence... What were they thinking, it's not making sense...?:confused:

[ZT4]

Yep.

Bollocks like that, no wonder Peter got Tubthumping (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fm4iU0yx9GY) with him.

[Kid Kyoto]

In hindsight I DO think the Clone Sage was a better compromise to the whole marriage issue. Everyone wins in a way.

Peter and MJ are happily married, while Ben is the single spidey writers and editors wanted.

Had the story been handled better, without outside forces messing with it, I think it could have worked. But in hindsight editorial and marketing issues definately make the idea doomed from the start.

Seems Ultimate Spidey, Spiderman loves mary Jane, Spiderman Adventures and Untold Tales all solved that problem pretty well.

But that's another rant...

[Phil Hunn]

Seems Ultimate Spidey, Spiderman loves mary Jane, Spiderman Adventures and Untold Tales all solved that problem pretty well.

But that's another rant...

Ah, but that would be diversity, and we can't have that. Anyway, Peter & MJ are still together and married in Amazing Spider-Girl. All of us haters should just start picking that up if we can't handle new-old Hip, Swingin' Single Spider-Man.

... wait, I already started doing that.

[Mister Mets]

Well, I don't agree with all of those, but even if that's true, being the 17th best Spiderman story isn't too bad is it?Technically it would be 17th best era, and I don't even know if it would be in the top half. And there are a few periods I'm just not very familiar with...

Gerry Conway Web of Spider-Man/ Spectacular Spider-Man

Plus, I forgot three..
Micheline/ Larsen Amazing Spider-Man
Spider-Man 2099
Spider-Man Loves Mary Jane
Untold Tales of Spider-Man/ Amazing Fantasy #16-18

[Theophilus]

Technically it would be 17th best era, and I don't even know if it would be in the top half. And there are a few periods I'm just not very familiar with...

But Cyberman, you're failing to take into account that the Clone Saga is an entirely different kind of story than those encompassed by any of the eras you've mentioned. Different goals, different techniques.

Up until a point, the Clone Saga is positively the most riveting serial comic drama that I've ever read. Yeah, it got blown at the end, but...

There has never, never been a story that has kept me as desperate to read the next issue as the Clone Saga did, and probably never will be. That doesn't mean that I think it's the best example of Spider-Man by any means. But I think it is perhaps the best example of that kind of storytelling...up to a point.

[jackolover]

Up until a point, the Clone Saga is positively the most riveting serial comic drama that I've ever read. Yeah, it got blown at the end, but...

There has never, never been a story that has kept me as desperate to read the next issue as the Clone Saga did, and probably never will be. That doesn't mean that I think it's the best example of Spider-Man by any means. But I think it is perhaps the best example of that kind of storytelling...up to a point.

That's the way I read the Clone Saga, too. I missed it, because I was out of comics for a long time, and when I re-emmerged, my friend told me about the clones. So I immediately went to all the back issue stores and bought the whole lot. Like you, I was rivetted, because of the inconclusiveness. Who was the one true Spiderman?

[matthewaos]

Technically it would be 17th best era, and I don't even know if it would be in the top half. And there are a few periods I'm just not very familiar with...

Gerry Conway Web of Spider-Man/ Spectacular Spider-Man

Plus, I forgot three..
Micheline/ Larsen Amazing Spider-Man
Spider-Man 2099
Spider-Man Loves Mary Jane
Untold Tales of Spider-Man/ Amazing Fantasy #16-18

Well, the guy said IF it was well handled it could be good. So comparing to anything is kind pointless I think.

[Mister Mets]

Well, the guy said IF it was well handled it could be good. So comparing to anything is kind pointless I think.I misread him as saying basically that with the exclusion of the bad stories, the Clone Saga was awesome enough to rank highly with other eras of the Spider-Man books.

But Cyberman, you're failing to take into account that the Clone Saga is an entirely different kind of story than those encompassed by any of the eras you've mentioned. Different goals, different techniques.

Up until a point, the Clone Saga is positively the most riveting serial comic drama that I've ever read. Yeah, it got blown at the end, but...

There has never, never been a story that has kept me as desperate to read the next issue as the Clone Saga did, and probably never will be. That doesn't mean that I think it's the best example of Spider-Man by any means. But I think it is perhaps the best example of that kind of storytelling...up to a point.I think I get the appeal of the Clone Saga. As ZT4 noted it was the most progressive Amazing Spider-Man had ever been. However, a series that's supposed to be around for an indefinite period of time shouldn't have much progress. If Marvel's smart, we're not going to see that again (although you could make a case for the Unmasked era being similar), at least until someone decides it's time to end the Spider-Man books, and the character's "third act" can be shown.

[matthewaos]

Well, I think you are wrong. Those guys at marvel really like Spider-Man as he was in the 70s. Just wait for the guys that are now 20 - 25 and grew with the clone saga.

[Shyft]

Bring Ben back, give him organic webs, put him on the New Avengers in the black suit, and call him the Shadow Spider or something to that effect.

[Omega Alpha]

Marvel does now have an opportunity to do the Clone Saga "right." Though there are many disadvantages to the approach. It should only be done if someone has a brilliant idea on how to do it.


http://www.hillcity-comics.com/graphic_novels_2007/new_graphic_novel8421.jpg

[Shyft]

http://www.hillcity-comics.com/graphic_novels_2007/new_graphic_novel8421.jpg

i personally dont consider the Ultimate Clone Saga to be "done right".

Dr.Octopus having control over metal? so hes just magneto?
Goblin MJ?
Carnage Gwen?

[Sion]

I didn't like the Ultimate Clone Saga either.... I think the 616 version had the right idea, but got lost in the execution.

[Theophilus]

I think I get the appeal of the Clone Saga. As ZT4 noted it was the most progressive Amazing Spider-Man had ever been. However, a series that's supposed to be around for an indefinite period of time shouldn't have much progress. If Marvel's smart, we're not going to see that again (although you could make a case for the Unmasked era being similar), at least until someone decides it's time to end the Spider-Man books, and the character's "third act" can be shown.

I still don't buy your logic in putting 17 (now 20?) runs definitively above the Clone Saga. I think it's subject to debate, basically because the Clone Saga is fairly unique so it's hard to even compare it to those eras.

And if the logic of the Clone Saga had played out like intended, the Clone Saga would have just been another vehicle to bring that progressive movement to a managable level. After Act 3, Ben would have taken over and readers would have a single Spidey without the continuity baggage.

Now that being said, I think that the Clone Saga and OMD are inversely related.

The Clone Saga was an exciting way to get to a status quo that would have raised several other problems, such as finding a way to let Ben take on the Parker name. They would have to eventually to avoid confusing older returning readers and newer readers coming off the movie and cartoon franchises.

OMD was a painful, horrible way to get to an exciting status quo. It set everything in place where it needed to be, whatever the cost.

All things considered, I'll take the positive long term consequences of a bad story over the short term benefits and eventual complications of a good story.

[Expendable]

Well there was the after effect of the clone saga too. I remember Aunt May dying in ish 400 and thinking "If they keep her dead it was done right" but of course they couldnt keep her dead and in the end who was the main reason for the breakup(inside the comic lol) Aunt May. No matter how you look at it she is the main reason the marriage is over and we have a "brand new day". Who knew that as much hate as everyone had for the clone saga during that time that one of the biggest plot points could of saved a marriage 12 years later. But of course they would of found another way and maybe that way would of been better.

My thoughts on Ben. I loved Ben as the Scarlet Spider. It was like a breath of fresh air too have Ben when he first showed up. And he brought Kaine with him awesome. If they brought Ben back in BND as the Scarlet Spider I wouldnt ask any question nor care if maybe just maybe he is the real Peter Parker. Leave it at that he is the Scarlet Spider and he can help with Spidey's big work load(3 ASM a month on top of New Avengers kid needs a break its not like he is wolverine!)

I just thought of something horrible. What if they brought Ben back as MJ's new love interest!! That would make for some interesting stories lol.

[Alan2099]

The regualr clone saga was good up until the very end of it then it got bogged down in stupid.

The Ultimate Clone saga just never clicked right.

[Mister Mets]

I still don't buy your logic in putting 17 (now 20?) runs definitively above the Clone Saga. I think it's subject to debate, basically because the Clone Saga is fairly unique so it's hard to even compare it to those eras.

And if the logic of the Clone Saga had played out like intended, the Clone Saga would have just been another vehicle to bring that progressive movement to a managable level. After Act 3, Ben would have taken over and readers would have a single Spidey without the continuity baggage.

Now that being said, I think that the Clone Saga and OMD are inversely related.

The Clone Saga was an exciting way to get to a status quo that would have raised several other problems, such as finding a way to let Ben take on the Parker name. They would have to eventually to avoid confusing older returning readers and newer readers coming off the movie and cartoon franchises.

OMD was a painful, horrible way to get to an exciting status quo. It set everything in place where it needed to be, whatever the cost.

All things considered, I'll take the positive long term consequences of a bad story over the short term benefits and eventual complications of a good story.Which of the periods that I mentioned was definitively worse than the Clone Saga?

Incidentally, there were many flaws to Ben Reilly becoming the real Spider-Man, including the suggestion that Peter Parker is so easily replaceable and the way he can't really interact with Peter Parker's excellent supporting cast.

I think the story OMD was most similar to was Spider-Man's wedding. Both occurred in the space of four issues. Both changed Spider-Man's marital status quo. Both were sudden. Both were followed by new creative teams on the Spider-Man titles (hell, the wedding was followed by three months of the same story appearing in every Spider-Man title.) Both tried to bring Spider-Man closer to the way he was presented in another medium. Both had tremendous plot holes that fans of the decision usually accepted. Both had a sense of lost potential (with the marriage, it was the entire engagement being covered in a single issue.) Both were editorial mandates. Both were business decisions more than creative ones.

[ZT4]

The only difference is the marraige felt natural and logical enough to accept given the history of the characters. OMD was not logical given the history of the characters.

[Theophilus]

Which of the periods that I mentioned was definitively worse than the Clone Saga?

You're acting as though there's a singular vision of what makes a story better or worse. It all depends on what you're looking for. Are you looking for long term consequences or short term enjoyability? Slower paced characterization or roller coaster twists and turns? I mean, take Jenkins' run for instance. People liked it, sure, but it's not like fans were rushing to the stores the second Jenkins' issues hit the stands and could not live without them. Fans were doing exactly that with the Clone Saga. Even though that approach loses something with re-reading, you can't deny that it's a heck of a ride while it lasts. People pay good money for roller coasters.

And I would think you would appreciate some of the problems with Conway's first run, given your thoughts on the illusion of change. Conway isn't so fond of his early work himself...he's repeatedly said that killing Gwen was the mistake of a young writer. And I might add that Conway's first run pretty much set off the chain reaction that led fans to expect radical changes in Spider-Man's continuity from time to time. Now his second run, that's much better.

Incidentally, there were many flaws to Ben Reilly becoming the real Spider-Man, including the suggestion that Peter Parker is so easily replaceable and the way he can't really interact with Peter Parker's excellent supporting cast.

There's flaws in any work, including the 17-20 runs you've mentioned. See above thoughts on Conway's first run.

I think the story OMD was most similar to was Spider-Man's wedding. Both occurred in the space of four issues. Both changed Spider-Man's marital status quo. Both were sudden. Both were followed by new creative teams on the Spider-Man titles (hell, the wedding was followed by three months of the same story appearing in every Spider-Man title.) Both tried to bring Spider-Man closer to the way he was presented in another medium. Both had tremendous plot holes that fans of the decision usually accepted. Both had a sense of lost potential (with the marriage, it was the entire engagement being covered in a single issue.) Both were editorial mandates. Both were business decisions more than creative ones.

Agreed.

[matthewaos]

There is always the possibility that someone may prefer the clone saga, even at least to a certain point, more than, say Michelini/McFarlane run. It's a matter of perspective.

[ZT4]

Can we get The Black Fox back? Spidey getting outclassed by an old man was comedy gold.

[Alan2099]

Can we get The Black Fox back? Spidey getting outclassed by an old man was comedy gold.

For once we agree on something. I loved that character. Especially his run in with Dr. Doom.

[ShaggyB]

Hey, maybe neither of them are the real Peter Parker. Maybe the real Peter Parker lost his memory some years ago. Was taken out be a vengful villian, just so he could replace him and in the end kill him and the Ben Reilly clone off after he realizes who he is. But times had changed and Mary Jane had been living with a fake who acted nothing like our Peter Parker. This clone was so defective he revealed his identity to the world without much of a thought. Maybe Mary Jane herself was a clone of the original. Kept in a tube somewhere.

Hey, can you think of a better way out of this mess? I can't

Yes, i can.

Pete goes through several relationships not being happy and basically feels something is wrong with him. He goes to docs and psychologists, he then decides to approach the super community. Eventually he ends up with doctor strange. Strange discovers a piece of peters soul is magically locked. Peter spans the globe to get magical artifacts to help strange unlock it. AS he does he gains some powers back. Then we get Strange & Spidey vs Mephisto. His magic is undone to a degree. Harry and may still live, peters identity is still a secret, but not from everyone. Mj and pete are free to be together again.

Ofcourse some more holes need to be filled and plot devices set up and tweaked.... but over all that would do it better than reverting to clone peter and clone mj make deal with mephisto. (besides wouldnt Mephisto Know they were clones? lame IMO. Also can anyone point me to when Mephisto turned up alive? Last i read Black Heart Killed him, Then Noble Kale/Ghost Rider killed Black Heart) (and more recently JohnnyBlaze/Ghost Rider has been shown battling the Devil and its not Mephisto. Hes been retconned to have made a deal with the real devil and not Mephisto[marvel's version of the devil])

[founder81]

I just thought of something horrible. What if they brought Ben back as MJ's new love interest!! That would make for some interesting stories lol.

The old Madelyne Pryor Clause. Where the writer convinces the editor its not the "dead" character but the fans and the writer know otherwise. In this case "Ben" is actually Peter and "Peter" is actually someone other then Peter.

[Jeff Mclachlan]

You people are crazy. The Clone Saga will only ever be referenced in comics again as an example of how greed and bad storytelling without regard for long term consequences almost killed a flagship character.

The original idea behind it was sound---getting Peter out of that damn marriage they got him stuck in--but the execution---Jesus! Now I don't want to say all the Spider-Man books in the nineties were bad, but man, those books were BAD. Characters like Kaine, ad Cardiac and Scrier, and the Demogoblin and Carnage and that female Doc Ock---ugh. And the Art! Ron Lim, Tom Lyle, Mark Bagley (before he got tolerable)--all drawing that grotesque McFarlane Spider-Man with the huge triangle eyes (which are totally useless for showing any type of expression), and bad home perm-hooker Mary jane.

There was never a worse time to be a Spider-Man fan than when people like Tom DeFalco and Danny Fingeroth and Jim Salicrup were in charge of the books. Even J.M DeMatteis, normally a good writer, got dragged into this mess and contributed probably the most depressing stories in Spider-Man history, what with things like Peter crawling into a cocoon and wanting to become a spider, and the deaths of Aunt May and Harry Osborn

Seriously, if you ever think you're think you're even going to read the word "clone" again in a non-Ultimate Spider-Man book you're deluded.

[Haquim]

Well there was the after effect of the clone saga too. I remember Aunt May dying in ish 400 and thinking "If they keep her dead it was done right" but of course they couldnt keep her dead and in the end who was the main reason for the breakup(inside the comic lol) Aunt May. No matter how you look at it she is the main reason the marriage is over and we have a "brand new day". Who knew that as much hate as everyone had for the clone saga during that time that one of the biggest plot points could of saved a marriage 12 years later. But of course they would of found another way and maybe that way would of been better.

My thoughts on Ben. I loved Ben as the Scarlet Spider. It was like a breath of fresh air too have Ben when he first showed up. And he brought Kaine with him awesome. If they brought Ben back in BND as the Scarlet Spider I wouldnt ask any question nor care if maybe just maybe he is the real Peter Parker. Leave it at that he is the Scarlet Spider and he can help with Spidey's big work load(3 ASM a month on top of New Avengers kid needs a break its not like he is wolverine!)

I just thought of something horrible. What if they brought Ben back as MJ's new love interest!! That would make for some interesting stories lol.

I agree wholeheartedly. AS400 was a great comic book, one of the best. I just loved it, and it was a fitting end for a chapter of Peter's life, the thing that outraged me the most about the end of the clone saga was they brought back Aunt May (and the way they did). I stopped reading Spider Man after that, and for a long time.
About the clone saga: it was good. I personally would have liked Marvel to tell us, yes Ben Reilly is the clone, Peter is the true spider man, but both have a part to play in our world. That way we could have had good stories about the scarlet spider, good stories about Spider Man and all would have been happy.
The clone saga introduced interesting characters to the spider man cast: Ben was interesting, Khaine was a great bad guy, Traveller and Scrier were interesting too... Yet Marvel decided to destroy it all bringing back Norman Osborn... I hated when thay did that, and the way they DESTROYED the clone saga in such a simplicistic way, and tarnished the great story about Norman's death.

P.S.

Since the genie is out of the bottle I hope Marvel explains Norman really died and was resurrected by Mephisto to plague Peter's life (with Scrier and the Scrier cult being Mephisto and cultists dedicated to him). It could help explain why Mephisto has an interest in Peter Parker's life...

[matthewaos]

I am one of the few that thing that Norman's resurrection was good. I think that it gave new direction to a character that he was always having amnesia (and I hated this), it gave us, in an extend Thunderbolts, it gave us death in the family, MK Spider-Man, and yes, revelations. If you think about it, only Norman could have make this plan to destroy Peter, and that was were they defined their relation.

[ZT4]

You people are crazy.

So are the current editorial staff

The Clone Saga will only ever be referenced in comics again as an example of how greed and bad storytelling without regard for long term consequences almost killed a flagship character.

The reflection of history is painted after it is written. Fans have become writers, writers become editors, editors will say something different depending on what they enjoyed reading. The Clone Saga hasnt went away, and they know that.

The original idea behind it was sound---getting Peter out of that damn marriage they got him stuck in--

Natural, intelligent evolution of a character that just happened to be the best marketing gimmick ever at the same time? Wow, what a trap.

! Now I don't want to say all the Spider-Man books in the nineties were bad, but man, those books were BAD. Characters like Kaine, ad Cardiac and Scrier, and the Demogoblin and Carnage and that female Doc Ock---ugh.

Those characters are amongst the most memorable aspects, and if you think "The Osborn Legacy" and "The Gift", two of the most signficant, memorable storylines ever that made you appreciate how natural and evolving the character was was "depressing" (and not even in an "uncharateristicly depressing" way like we have now, especially since Harry and May died making peace with Peter and their own inner demons) You're the one whose deluded.

Rather than judge fans with better tastes and sharper lenses than you, why don't you go and broaden your scope?