Clone Saga Retrospective Thread

[Theophilus]

I don't know if there's anything like this out there, but I thought it might be worth starting up a thread devoted to the clone saga.

What I think is really interesting is that here in the middle of yet another controversial shift in the direction of Spider-Man, I've noticed that feelings toward the clone saga have cooled over the years and fans actually look back on it fondly--not necessarily on replacing Peter, but at least on the actual storylines up to a point.

So, let's discuss anything...

1. Sales. Why did sales drop? Was it because Marvel dragged it out? Because Peter was going to be replaced? Or was it part of a developing trend in the industry anyway, since most comics were tanking left and right in '95, '96' and '97 regardless. I mean, those three years were pretty much efforts to stop the bleeding more than anything...

2. The marriage. Was it a good idea for Marvel to introduce Ben Reilly so it could have its cake and eat it, too? Happily married Pete and lovable loser Ben Reilly?

3. What If? What if Marvel had made the change permanently? Good for sales eventually? Big problem explaining to moviegoers why they are watching a move about Peter Parker who works at the Daily Bugle based on a comic book that features Ben Reilly who works at a coffeehouse? No biggie?

4. Have your feelings changed? Did you hate it then, love it now? Love it then, hate it now?

5. Now that feelings have cooled, should Marvel finally issue TPBs of the Clone Saga? It seems odd that now Marvel cranks out TPBs on a regular basis they still won't go back to the Clone Saga. There is a nostalgic element here that could translate into cash...

[squirecam]

http://www.newcomicreviews.com/GHM/specials/LifeOfReilly/

Everything on why it was done and why it didnt work...

[ZT4]

The early days of The Clone Saga are not regarded as containing some of the pinnacles of Spidey's natural evolution for nothing. Ben came in with a fresh view of life, having led a nomadic lifestyle, he had experiance traveling the world rather than be restricted to any family or job ties, essentially showing what a more worldly Peter could be like.

Scarlet Spider, The Jackle, Kaine, Doc Ock's discovery of Peter's identity, and then death, Lady Octopus

Yes, Marvel actually devised a clever means of giving Peter an ending witha pregnant MJ that was beneficial also to Ben, but by making Ben the "real deal", they soured the deal. Nobody is pleased when continuity is, whilst not exactly fucked, it's made to look like it diverted from the true focus. Fans don't forgive easily, as we're seeing now given it's taken this long TO forgive the worst of the Clone Saga.

Editorial has always been Spidey's worst enemy as it pertains to growth and forward thinking. Left entirely alone for as long as the saga was, Peter and Ben's universe had expanded beyond rational description of the term "potential", you had twice the amount of development with characters, Peter and Ben's "brothers" anaology also gave Peter a true family that did'nt need May (don't get me started on the fact Peter DID let her go)

You could splinter the multiple titles to tell the revolving lives of TWO Spider-Men, not just Ben, but Pete if the company wanted to keep him around "just in case", and to balance old and new readers (ironicly, that's EXACTLY what we have now with Spider-Girl and ASM, give or take Peter only being Spidey when it's neccersary in the former title)

And of course, the Saga has'nt been entirely forgotten, as Spider-Girl's canocity owes a great deal to it and sells in the right market, so Marvel would gain a significant deal printing TBPs of the saga since it makes up the continuity of that specific title.

[ZT4]

http://media.paperblog.fr/i/39/390438/omnibus-spiderman-contenu-L-1.jpeg

It's french, but it's from the Marvel Masterworks site...looks like a release may not be far off aftrer all.

[MrPalen]

At the time the Clone Saga was actually happening I loved it. I guess I would have been about 13-14, and I couldn't wait for the newest issue to come out. I had the key issues mounted on my wall. I loved Ben Reilly, I loved the Scarlet Spider, and I even really liked when Ben took over as Spider-Man, had blonde hair, a new costume, and worked at a coffee shop. I was conflicted when Ben was presented as being the real Peter but it was interesting. I don't really remember what I thought of Ben's eventual death and how things ended up but I think I was relatively happy with things having enjoyed the ride from start to finish.

Going back and looking at it now I can see some of the flaws in the execution of the story and it's possible that if the same story were to have happened with me at 27 instead of 13 I might have wildly different reactions.

But my memories of the saga are quite positive.

Edit: Oh yeah now I remember how it ended. All of a sudden it's Norman Osborn back from the dead who was behind it all, and oh yeah it wasn't really Aunt May who died, the real Aunt May is alive blah blah blah. I was outrageously p|$$3d off by these developments and that's when I stopped buying Spider-Man comics after having collected them for all my life up to that point.

[Jukka Laine of Finland]

When Ben turned out to be the "One, true Spider-Man", he should've turned to be "the one, true Peter Parker" as well.

They should've switched identities. Ben becomes Peter and vice versa. And the new "Ben" goes off with MJ. And when people would ask, "What's the matter? MJ took off with your cousin?", Peter (new Peter) would have responded: "F**k them, I'll never want anything to do with them. That S.O.B. made my wife pregnant."

Nobody would ask anything after that. And what's the best, we could still see the married Spider-Man from time to time.

[Micro]

1. I think you actually answer this yourself in a way. Sales were dropping all over the industry, not just with Spiderman. I think Chapter One hurt Spiderman more than the Clone Saga did. Had the Clone Saga just finished up, and moved forward I think Spiderman would be in better shape today than he is now.

Bringing Norman back, then Aunt may, trying to kill MJ, continuously changing Spiderman's status quo, all hurt the book in the long run. Sales will go up and down with the industry, but whats most important is the integrity of the character. I'd rather have a series of bad stories that have little long term impact on the character, than a bunch of stories that are hit and miss, that have a big and instant impact on the character(which is what I think we have now). Stories like OMD will go on to be remebered for a very long time to come, and it won't be for the good of the character.

2. Yes, I think it was a decent idea atleast. I can't think of many better ideas if they wanted it both ways(without doing something similar to Ultimate Spiderman). I think having both Spidermen, could have worked as long as it was clear, Peter was the original.

3. If Marvel made the change permanetly, I don't think it would have mattered much in the long run, as long as Peter was still around. I would have disliked the fact Peter was the clone, but someone would have undone it eventually. I do not buy into the idea that the books need to be in the same status quo as the movies and such to get new fans in. When I got into comics at first, one of the biggest draws was to see how far the characters had come, from when I had seen them on TV. I think as long as the books were good, and had good writers it could have worked. However, it would have worked best if Peter was Spiderman, and Ben went on to become Scarlet Spider.

4. I liked it at first. I liked Ben and having Kain around. I never liked the idea of Peter being the clone, but I never actually thought it would last anyways. When Maximum Clonage came out, that is when I started to get tired of it, and I very much disliked the way they ended that part of it. I was ok with Ben being Spiderman for a while, and having Peter have a child, as long as they would bring Peter back as Spiderman eventually.

I liked that they moved forward past Aunt May and gave her a good sending off. I didn't like that they killed Doctor Octopus, but I liked how they introduced a new Female verison(I think they could have done this without killing the old one off). I HATED, HATED, HATED, when they revealed Norman Osborn was alive and behind the whole Clone Saga.

Up until this point, I didn't really dislike the Clone Saga that much, but was just getting a bit tired of it. On top of Norman coming back, they killed off Ben, which made it seem like even more of a waste. At the time, I kept thinking, there had to be more too it and Ben would be back. It left an empty feeling, that after all I had been through with the clone saga as a fan this was my reward? I pretty much feel the same way about it now, as I did then.

5. They should, and im suprised if they haven't already. New Fans want to look back to it to find out why it is so infamous. And despite what people think the Clone Saga wasn't that bad, it is also easier to like it when you can read it all at once, instead of having it spread out over 2 years.

I covered a lot of the Clone Saga in my "I love the 90's Spiderman retrospective:

http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=204921

And as squirecam pointed out, the Life of Reilly is a great look back at it:

http://www.newcomicreviews.com/GHM/specials/LifeOfReilly/

[squirecam]

4. I liked it at first. I liked Ben and having Kain around. I never liked the idea of Peter being the clone, but I never actually thought it would last anyways. When Maximum Clonage came out, that is when I started to get tired of it, and I very much disliked the way they ended that part of it. I was ok with Ben being Spiderman for a while, and having Peter have a child, as long as they would bring Peter back as Spiderman eventually.


I covered a lot of the Clone Saga in my "I love the 90's Spiderman retrospective:

http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=204921

And as squirecam pointed out, the Life of Reilly is a great look back at it:

http://www.newcomicreviews.com/GHM/specials/LifeOfReilly/


The ONLY positive thing from OMD (in my opinion)

Ben can be alive. (Cause if Harry can....)

[Blader5489]

1. Sales. Why did sales drop? Was it because Marvel dragged it out? Because Peter was going to be replaced? Or was it part of a developing trend in the industry anyway, since most comics were tanking left and right in '95, '96' and '97 regardless. I mean, those three years were pretty much efforts to stop the bleeding more than anything...

I think "The Death of Superman" did the most damage in that regard. The entire industry went into a nosedive, and Marvel gave the green light to a lot of (failed) marketing gimmicks to, as you said, stop the bleeding. And that's essentially what the Clone Saga became: a marketing-driven story.

[DeadXMan]

The second clone saga has always sucked and always will suck

this arc and reborn is the reason Marvel almost became non-existent.

It should be branded a crime against humanity if it is ever printed again

[Theophilus]

When Ben turned out to be the "One, true Spider-Man", he should've turned to be "the one, true Peter Parker" as well...Nobody would ask anything after that. And what's the best, we could still see the married Spider-Man from time to time.


If they were going to go that route, I tend to agree that the two should have switched names. Spider-Man is such an iconic character that he's really inseparably wed to the name "Peter Parker"...I also think that it would have given Pete back his supporting cast. It would have been awkward at first, but if I remember correctly there was a subplot where Ben still had feelings for Betty because he wasn't as far removed from their relationship as Peter. That would have been something to exploit.

[Anodyne]

For me, the best part was that Peter and Ben eventually got it right when they accepted each other as brothers and quit worrying over which was the original. Too bad Marvel then promptly killed Ben off.:mad:

I wish Aunt May had gotten to know Ben as Ben. I can imagine her reaction once she recovered from the shock: "You mean I have TWO wonderful nephews?!" Of course, whether she survived the shock would have depended on who was writing her at the time.:p

[Theophilus]

I think "The Death of Superman" did the most damage in that regard. The entire industry went into a nosedive, and Marvel gave the green light to a lot of (failed) marketing gimmicks to, as you said, stop the bleeding. And that's essentially what the Clone Saga became: a marketing-driven story.

Yeah, but there were some economic factors in play that might have necessitated an event-driven market after the death of Superman. The thing is the Death of Superman started a sort of bull market for comics and part of the problem with the clone saga was that it just fell around the time the bubble was bursting. Kids were starting to realize that the speculator market was exaggerating the value of comics that had a large print run and could never be considered rare.

So I think you're right that the Death of Superman sent the market in that direction, but I think there were other factors involved. Image was eating into the Big Two's market share and Marvel responded by flooding the market with titles and using big events. To be fair those events may have been the only way for the older superheroes to compete with the newest thing that was coming out every month.

Then Marvel decided to buy its own distrubutor and sent itself into bankruptcy, and that just made things that much worse.

I think that the revelation that Peter wasn't the "real" Spider-Man became a rallying cry that sealed the nail in the coffin, but I'm not sure that sales wouldn't have gone that direction any way over the next year. So the WSJ article that blamed the clone saga for the drop might have been a little misleading in that respect. Long term, it might have kept Spidey from tanking several years earlier.

Edit: I guess my point is that if Marvel hadn't flooded the market and gone into distribution, the Clone Saga might have been considered a commerical success. Or that if it had been about two years earlier, it would definitely have been a success.

[Theophilus]

The second clone saga has always sucked and always will suck

this arc and reborn is the reason Marvel almost became non-existent.

It should be branded a crime against humanity if it is ever printed again

You know, even if you think it's horrible it is an important part of Marvel history. For that alone it's more worthy of a compilation than a lot of the other TPBs that are hitting stands by the hour.

It would translate into cash. I mean, the Revelations TPB sells on amazon for $40--and it only collects the final four issues!

And Marvel's gotten over the initial negative reaction. It's far enough in the past that Marvel doesn't stand to lose anything from it. Made sense when the saga was universally reviled and they needed to distance themselves from it, but now I think it needs to make it into an Omnibus.

[ZT4]

The second clone saga has always sucked and always will suck

I could say the same about BND for as long as it lasts. Instead of posting like an adolescent, why don't you post some intelligent and logical points for once over it's pros and cons?

A crime against humanity is making deals with the devil incarnate to snuff out whole timelines and future lives I may add.

[hmnut73]

For me, the best part was that Peter and Ben eventually got it right when they accepted each other as brothers and quit worrying over which was the original. Too bad Marvel then promptly killed Ben off.:mad:

I agree Marvel really threw the baby out with the bath water when they killed off Ben.

Ben was amazing character who could work both as a supporting character for Peter's book or as a main character of his own book.

[XPac]

You know, even if you think it's horrible it is an important part of Marvel history. For that alone it's more worthy of a compilation than a lot of the other TPBs that are hitting stands by the hour.

It would translate into cash. I mean, the Revelations TPB sells on amazon for $40--and it only collects the final four issues!

And Marvel's gotten over the initial negative reaction. It's far enough in the past that Marvel doesn't stand to lose anything from it. Made sense when the saga was universally reviled and they needed to distance themselves from it, but now I think it needs to make it into an Omnibus.

It would be hard to put CLone Sage into trade form though... it was such a HUGE cross over. And a lot of it was pretty bad (though there definately were some nice gems sprinkled in there).

Maybe if they tried hard enough they could streamline the thing or something, I don't know.

[brahmabull]

The clone saga sucked. It was dum and alot of comics around that time sucked.

[Micro]

It would be hard to put CLone Sage into trade form though... it was such a HUGE cross over. And a lot of it was pretty bad (though there definately were some nice gems sprinkled in there).

Maybe if they tried hard enough they could streamline the thing or something, I don't know.

I don't think it would be that long.

Clone Saga Volume 1:
Power And Responsibility part 1-4
The Exile Returns part 1-4
Web Of Life part 1-4
Smoke And Mirrors part 1-3
And parts of Amazing 400 to help close it off.

Clone Saga Volume 2:
The Mark of Kaine part 1-5
Small bits of the Trail of Peter Parker
Maximum Clonage part 1-5
Maximum Clonage Omega
The Greatest Responsibility part 1-3

Clone Saga Volume 3:
Parts of Ben Reilly as Spiderman
Blood Brothers part 1-6
Revelations part 1-4

That basicly breaks down to about 3 Trades, with 15 issues per trade more or less. I think they should publish them, so people can find out for themselves just what the Clone Saga was like, instead of just assuming it was so bad because it has become so infamous.

[BlackToe]

The second clone saga has always sucked and always will suck

this arc and reborn is the reason Marvel almost became non-existent.

It should be branded a crime against humanity if it is ever printed again

[Knightmare10880]

My thoughts on the Clone Saga, I really enjoyed it when it first started, but the people in charge kept stretching it out for beyond the original plan of the story line's creators.

The idea to bring Norman Osbourne back was a stupid move in my opinion, the idea of Harry being the master mind made alot more sense, he hadn't been dead as long as his father and he had a much more personal connection to Peter.

[Venom]

The Clone Saga. One of the best periods of my life. Nuff said!

[Asian_Invasion]

The only thing good that came out of the Clone Saga was Ben Reilly dying. It was an honest sacrifice.

[Olivier]

http://media.paperblog.fr/i/39/390438/omnibus-spiderman-contenu-L-1.jpeg

It's french, but it's from the Marvel Masterworks site...looks like a release may not be far off aftrer all.

It has been release in January in France. There are more than 900 pages. It covers only the first half of the saga so there will be a second book but I don't know when.

[ZT4]

The only thing good that came out of the Clone Saga was Ben Reilly dying. It was an honest sacrifice.

Yeah, right. There's about five stone-cold classics told during the Saga, that only being one of them.

The clone saga sucked. It was dum and alot of comics around that time sucked.

"dum" isnt a word, and your scope of comics at the time is narrow.