Black Panther Appreciation

[DaeJi]

In my mind, an African team should include Sabra, Arabian Knight, Living Mummy, and an African/Egyptian god. Not just them mind, but they should be part of it. I like the idea that Black Panther wouldn't be part of it, since Wakanda is so cut off from the rest of Africa.

[The Cool Thatguy]

In my mind, an African team should include Sabra, Arabian Knight, Living Mummy, and an African/Egyptian god. Not just them mind, but they should be part of it. I like the idea that Black Panther wouldn't be part of it, since Wakanda is so cut off from the rest of Africa.

That sounds like Avengers Middle East, not Africa :tongue:

[The Cat]

In my mind, an African team should include Sabra, Arabian Knight, Living Mummy, and an African/Egyptian god. Not just them mind, but they should be part of it. I like the idea that Black Panther wouldn't be part of it, since Wakanda is so cut off from the rest of Africa.


Err... Not very African is it! :frown:

Personally I like the idea of an African team. Sorry to disappoint but the Black Panther would be a member of that team as well as some other African-Americans like Storm or Brother Voodoo (If it works for Excaliber). A Kemetic God/Goddess would be a welcome addition. The other members I would like to be new young characters.

[DaeJi]

That sounds like Avengers Middle East, not Africa :tongue:

A lot of the middle east is part of Africa.

Err... Not very African is it! :frown:

See above. Also, There should be a lot of heroes, but I feel that those four should be there. Sabra and Arabian Knight could both represent the more northern parts of Africa, Living Mummy is just a cool character from Africa's past, and every good team needs a god.

[Beast]

In my mind, an African team should include Sabra, Arabian Knight, Living Mummy, and an African/Egyptian god. Not just them mind, but they should be part of it. I like the idea that Black Panther wouldn't be part of it, since Wakanda is so cut off from the rest of Africa.
Now that's a start of a cool team. And I agree about Black Panther.

[The Cool Thatguy]

A lot of the middle east is part of Africa.

Physically sure. But culturally? That's a different story.

Russia is physically connected to Europe. Doesn't make them European ;)

[Daouda]

I appreciate the current Black Panther series as it resulted in me reading comics on a regular basis for the first time in years!

My first post to this forum, and most subsequent ones, was in response to a BP thread.

Needless to say, I love the character as he is currently portrayed.

T'Challa With pride and dignity, a righteous king, a black man running isht smoothly and confidently while suffering no fools. The easiest way to describe the character is 'noble'.

Wakanda, a beautiful land filled with beautiful people sort of like Asgard or Attilan but much more human.

Ororo, great addtion to the book. I think that she and T'Challa look perfect together. It's interesting it took 30 years for her American grandparents to be looked for but I'm glad it was in BP because I love them also.

Loved the "Katrina" issues, loved the Black Knights rap in issue 4 and loved seeing T'Challa mush 'Emma' and 'Scott' in the face in issue 32.:evilsmile

Damn, didn't mean to go this long. :D

Anyway, Black Panther forever!:)


Excelsior!

Daoud

[DaeJi]

Physically sure. But culturally? That's a different story.

Russia is physically connected to Europe. Doesn't make them European ;)

But if a team is to represent a whole continent, then it should try to include members from all of it's different cultures. Just look at the X-Men, they are meant to represent mutant kind so they have members from all over the planet.

[akumasan]

While ignoring logic and reason. The Avengers are American law enforcement and drew their membership from either registered American heroes or past Avengers with law enforcement experience. The proposed Africa Avengers just grabbed African American heroes at random. Not racist, but not that creative either.

Personally, I think any African team shouldn't be just African American heroes transposed to Africa, but instead actual African characters. Like Gentle, the Spear character from Claremont's Excalibur, etc.
1. I agree it is a bit silly to grab a bunch of american heroes of color and put them in a country of africa.

2. I know this and I read the book when i get the chance because of ms marvel but yelling racism on an all black team is stupid. That is one of the reasons why "The Crew" got cancelled and didnt have a chance. What makes it sad is that Priest was the writer to this. It would have done well if the chance was given.

[The Cool Thatguy]

But if a team is to represent a whole continent, then it should try to include members from all of it's different cultures. Just look at the X-Men, they are meant to represent mutant kind so they have members from all over the planet.

I understand, but you don't put, say, South Americans on a team who's emphasize is African heroes.

The X-Men's emphasize is mutants and paeceful co-existance. That allows a heck of alot of leeway. National teams, much less so. They can still be culturally diverse, but they should come from the cultures that exist in the places they are representing.

Politically speaking, the Middle East isn't Africa, anymore than the United States is Canada or Mexico.

[Beast]

1. I agree it is a bit silly to grab a bunch of american heroes of color and put them in a country of africa.

2. I know this and I read the book when i get the chance because of ms marvel but yelling racism on an all black team is stupid. That is one of the reasons why "The Crew" got cancelled and didnt have a chance. What makes it sad is that Priest was the writer to this. It would have done well if the chance was given.
I thought The Crew was cancelled because it sold horribly. Not due to any racism issues.

[The Cool Thatguy]

I thought The Crew was cancelled because it sold horribly. Not due to any racism issues.

Actually, it was cancelled before the first issue was released. Priest was never really given a fair shake for a host of reasons, one I do think was racism.

[Beast]

Actually, it was cancelled before the first issue was released. Priest was never really given a fair shake for a host of reasons, one I do think was racism.
Yeah, but the issues were solicited. So they at least saw the poor sales numbers.

[DaeJi]

I understand, but you don't put, say, South Americans on a team who's emphasize is African heroes.

Well, I didn't say the team should only be those heroes. And what does South America have to do with this?

Politically speaking, the Middle East isn't Africa, anymore than the United States is Canada or Mexico.

Egypt is a part of Africa. And there aren't exactly a lot of North African heroes. When dealing with an African team and not, say, a Congo team, you're going to pull more form culture than state. With an African team I feel that there should be Arab members. And the Living Mummy. I also think that Nezhno could be a good member, though I prefer him in the X-Men.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Yeah, but the issues were solicited. So they at least saw the poor sales numbers.

So what if they were solicited? After issue 2, people knew the series was getting cancelled. Naturally, that affected pre-orders and depressed sales further.

End of the day, The Crew wasn't given a fair shot because Marvel undermined it.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Well, I didn't say the team should only be those heroes. And what does South America have to do with this?

South America has nothing to do with Africa. That's my point ;)

Egypt is a part of Africa. And there aren't exactly a lot of North African heroes. When dealing with an African team and not, say, a Congo team, you're going to pull more form culture than state. With an African team I feel that there should be Arab members. And the Living Mummy. I also think that Nezhno could be a good member, though I prefer him in the X-Men.

Mexico is a part of North America and heck, used to have Texas too! But that doesn't mean it would make sense to have Mexican members on a team who's focused is United States heroes.

I'm not saying there shouldn't be Arab heroes on the team, but the ones you cited don't really come from Africa, but instead the Middle East (dunno about Mummy).

[DaeJi]

I'm not saying there shouldn't be Arab heroes on the team, but the ones you cited don't really come from Africa, but instead the Middle East (dunno about Mummy).

Well I don't know that many Arab heroes, and they seemed like a close enough for me. Besides, the Middle East would be interested in an African team, considering how close culturally they are to Africa. And those characters are known to readers and may have fans from the Union Jack mini. The Living Mummy is from Africa.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Well I don't know that many Arab heroes, and they seemed like a close enough for me. Besides, the Middle East would be interested in an African team, considering how close culturally they are to Africa. And those characters are known to readers and may have fans from the Union Jack mini. The Living Mummy is from Africa.

I think trying to create any quickly popular foreign team is an excercise in futility. Simply throwing in Arabian Knight and Sabra because they have slight fanbases would detract from the team and the characters.

Rather, a better tactic to take would be to have some Arab heroes from African countries that have an Arab population instead of transposing existing heroes. It creates a better representation of Africa (well, for comics anyways), IMO.

[Beast]

According to the sales charts at the time...

May 2003 - #62 - 20.82 CREW #1 $2.50 MAR 30,000
June 2003 - #97 - 15.3 CREW #2 $2.50 MAR 21,615
July 2003 - #125 - 12.71 CREW #3 $2.50 MAR 18,633
August 2003 - #129 - 11.08 CREW #4 $2.99 MAR 16,302
September 2003 - #142 - 6.38 CREW #5 $2.99 MAR 14,915
October 2003 - #171 - 12.54 CREW #6 $2.99 MAR 13,498
December 2003 - #142 - 14.53 CREW #7 $2.99 MAR 13,353

So I don't think they underminded it. They simply saw the numbers on the wall.

[The Cool Thatguy]

According to the sales charts at the time...

May 2003 - #62 - 20.82 CREW #1 $2.50 MAR 30,000
June 2003 - #97 - 15.3 CREW #2 $2.50 MAR 21,615
July 2003 - #125 - 12.71 CREW #3 $2.50 MAR 18,633
August 2003 - #129 - 11.08 CREW #4 $2.99 MAR 16,302
September 2003 - #142 - 6.38 CREW #5 $2.99 MAR 14,915
October 2003 - #171 - 12.54 CREW #6 $2.99 MAR 13,498
December 2003 - #142 - 14.53 CREW #7 $2.99 MAR 13,353

So I don't think they underminded it. They saw the numbers on the wall.

They cancelled it with issue 2, after stuffing it under the Tsunami releases (where it didn't fit at all) and was given zero promotion. Other books, then as now, were given opportunities to find their readers. The Crew wasn't.

[Beast]

They cancelled it with issue 2, after stuffing it under the Tsunami releases (where it didn't fit at all) and was given zero promotion. Other books, then as now, were given opportunities to find their readers. The Crew wasn't.
Cancelled it at Issue #2, when they already had the sales numbers for the next two issues.

Marvel's usual cut-off point for cancellation is around 20-25K. Except for mini-series and books that sell well in trade or digest format. The book had already slipped below that by Issue 2. It had nothing to do with racism, it was simple economics. The book's sales simply didn't support it continuing.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Cancelled it at Issue #2, when they already had the sales numbers for the next two issues.

Marvel's usual cut-off point for cancellation is around 20-25K. Except for mini-series and books that sell well in trade or digest format. The book had already slipped below that by Issue 2. It had nothing to do with racism, it was simple economics. The book's sales simply didn't support it continuing.

"Wrap it up by issue 2."

I can't think of any other ongoing series that was short changed in such a way. Especially when you consider all the other promotion that other Tsunami books got.

I'm not saying that they canned the book because of racism. Rather, racism is part of the reason why Priest has been jerked around his entire career and The Crew is an example of that.

[akumasan]

So I find myself having to say, more than what The Crew is, what The Crew is not. The Crew is not The Black Avengers. The Crew is not "A Ghetto Book". The Crew is not even remotely about race. Race is never even mentioned in The Crew. It is a complete non-issue.
Christopher Priestthis is what he said regarding the book

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Crew_(comics)

[The Cool Thatguy]

this is what he said regarding the book

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Crew_(comics)

I remember. But what he intended and what happened are, unfortunately, two different things.

[Beast]

"Wrap it up by issue 2."

I can't think of any other ongoing series that was short changed in such a way. Especially when you consider all the other promotion that other Tsunami books got.

I'm not saying that they canned the book because of racism. Rather, racism is part of the reason why Priest has been jerked around his entire career and The Crew is an example of that.
Most of the other Tsunami books had better sales. Those that didn't were canned.

Sentinel, Namor, Venom. The successful ones were Mystique and New Mutants.

Look at The Order in terms of a modern book when got similar treatment.

Except it was cancelled with #10 instead of #7 after equally disappointing sales.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Most of the other Tsunami books had better sales. Those that didn't were canned.

Sentinel, Namor, Venom. The successful ones were Mystique and New Mutants.

Look at The Order in terms of a modern book when got similar treatment.

Except it was cancelled with #10 instead of #7 after equally disappointing sales.

Venom had 10 issues, IIRC. Sentinel had two volumns and The Order was sprung out of Civil War.

Again, cancelling a series after issue 2? Giving it zero promotion? That's undermining it.

[akumasan]

http://phonogram.us/comics/crew/start.htm

[Loren]

"Wrap it up by issue 2."

I can't think of any other ongoing series that was short changed in such a way.

I can. (Well, kinda, as it was a mini.) Priest's "Concrete Jungle: Legend of the Black Lion" got canned by Acclaim after ONE issue. They didn't even release #2.

[akumasan]

I can. (Well, kinda, as it was a mini.) Priest's "Concrete Jungle: Legend of the Black Lion" got canned by Acclaim after ONE issue. They didn't even release #2.

what gets me going at times is that priest is such a great writer and he is treated like yesterdays news.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

If your gonna debate a Priest book that was royally screwed over...then look on his site about Xero. Where an editor at DC even told Priest to his face that the company wasn't behind the book and were wanting it to dissapear quickly as possible.

The story about the Batman crossover and reaction from the editors there shows how inside a company , how a book gets purposely tanked.

[bluedmighty]

Why would Luke Cage, Falcon, Photon, and Blade move to Africa?

And why is everyone on the team black? Isn't that kinda racist?

Like Mighty Avengers racist?

:tongue:

[bluedmighty]

Rather, a better tactic to take would be to have some Arab heroes from African countries that have an Arab population instead of transposing existing heroes. It creates a better representation of Africa (well, for comics anyways), IMO.

That would be DOPE.

But now you're in the "Create a new Character" zone.

So probably not :frown:

Actually, it was cancelled before the first issue was released. Priest was never really given a fair shake for a host of reasons, one I do think was racism.

:eek: I'm shocked

[bluedmighty]

According to the sales charts at the time...

May 2003 - #62 - 20.82 CREW #1 $2.50 MAR 30,000
June 2003 - #97 - 15.3 CREW #2 $2.50 MAR 21,615
July 2003 - #125 - 12.71 CREW #3 $2.50 MAR 18,633
August 2003 - #129 - 11.08 CREW #4 $2.99 MAR 16,302
September 2003 - #142 - 6.38 CREW #5 $2.99 MAR 14,915
October 2003 - #171 - 12.54 CREW #6 $2.99 MAR 13,498
December 2003 - #142 - 14.53 CREW #7 $2.99 MAR 13,353

So I don't think they underminded it. They simply saw the numbers on the wall.

Query: Did you like the Black Panther under Priest?

His run on Panther was cancelled due to sales, correct?

How many issues did it go untill it was cancelled?

The Crew was cancelled at issue #2, and not promoted.

You're supposed to get at least an arc and an insert.

[The Cool Thatguy]

That would be DOPE.

But now you're in the "Create a new Character" zone.

So probably not :frown:

I'm not saying all new characters, but a few. Africa in the MU has very few heroes, I don't think there's much more than four or five, not counting Panther and Storm.

[bluedmighty]

I'm not saying all new characters, but a few. Africa in the MU has very few heroes, I don't think there's much more than four or five, not counting Panther and Storm.

The majority of the ones they do have are REALLY obscure hero support at best. All the "contenders" from Africa that I can think of are Bad guys.

Is there a list?


What ever happened to the African Gods that appeared in Thor?

Vibranium?

Lightbright?

[akumasan]

If your gonna debate a Priest book that was royally screwed over...then look on his site about Xero. Where an editor at DC even told Priest to his face that the company wasn't behind the book and were wanting it to dissapear quickly as possible.

The story about the Batman crossover and reaction from the editors there shows how inside a company , how a book gets purposely tanked.

I heard about this one but that isnt the debate we're discussing. I could have swore it was based on a book that got the "black avengers" status symbol ala "the crew".

Now the numbers you posted Beast lets be honest the first issue was all based on the name of Priest alone since everyone loved his BP stuff. Once time progressed as people like yourself spitting crap that an "all black team is racist" the chance wasnt given.

[The Cool Thatguy]

The majority of the ones they do have are REALLY obscure hero support at best. All the "contenders" from Africa that I can think of are Bad guys.

Is there a list?


What ever happened to the African Gods that appeared in Thor?

Vibranium?

Lightbright?

Off the top of my head...

Lightbright (Silver Sable), Javelin (Captain America), The Spear (Excalibur)...and that's all I can think of, not including residents of Wakanda.

[Hypestyle]

I still think it could work, even as a mini-series once a year... get an artist like John Romita Jr., Brett booth, Marko Djurdjevik...

[bluedmighty]

i agree.

It could deffinately work, but alot of the characters that would make it GREAT, would have to be reintroduced.

[Imraith Nimphais]

For an African Hero Team...or, more precisely a Hero Team based in/out of Africa...why not do what the X-franchise have always done? Mix-it-up. Caucasian:European/Australian, Arabian/Middle Eastern, African, Asian and Indian. The final team would comprise of mutants, non-mutant superpowered humans, highly skilled humans, and a magician/sorceress type (always an exciting addition,imo)...I honestly don't see why the team has to consist of all blacks or all Africans...not in this day and age.
edit: And yes...it would be nice/interesting (for a change) for the creative team to come up with some new and original characters instead of relying solely on already existing or limbo-lised or cast-off characters from other groups.

[bluedmighty]

For an African Hero Team...or, more precisely a Hero Team based in/out of Africa...why not do what the X-franchise have always done? Mix-it-up. Caucasian:European/Australian, Arabian/Middle Eastern, African, Asian and Indian. The final team would comprise of mutants, non-mutant superpowered humans, highly skilled humans, and a magician/sorceress type (always an exciting addition,imo)...I honestly don't see why the team has to consist of all blacks or all Africans...not in this day and age.

It's not that it has to.

It would just be nice to see. :biggrin:

[DaeJi]

For an African Hero Team...or, more precisely a Hero Team based in/out of Africa...why not do what the X-franchise have always done? Mix-it-up. Caucasian:European/Australian, Arabian/Middle Eastern, African, Asian and Indian. The final team would comprise of mutants, non-mutant superpowered humans, highly skilled humans, and a magician/sorceress type (always an exciting addition,imo)...I honestly don't see why the team has to consist of all blacks or all Africans...not in this day and age.

Well, the X-Men aren't a nation or continent specific team but represent all mutants across the planet. I think an African team should pull people from Africa, maybe have a temporary U.S. hero to help teach them team dynamics. And there's more than just blacks and Arabs in Africa you know, there's white, India... okay, that's about it. But that's still more than just black and Arab.

[Imraith Nimphais]

Why have a US agent to teach team dynamics...when you already have BP and Storm...leaders in their own right?...it may sound segregational...but in context...I say leave the US and their Super Hero Registration Act out of African affairs. And I quite agree with you when you say there are a multitude of races in Africa...by all means, they shoul draw from that well...just keep it multi-ethnic...so that they dont appear to isolate any one group or minority...which apparently for some is a hot-bed issue...personally I would not mind an all black group either...but a multi-ethnic one is imo, more forward thinking.

[The Cat]

i agree.

It could deffinately work, but alot of the characters that would make it GREAT, would have to be reintroduced.

Me three... :biggrin:

I give Priest/Hudlin props for at least putting something like it together.

[DaeJi]

Why have a US agent to teach team dynamics...when you already have BP and Storm...leaders in their own right?...it may sound segregational...but in context...I say leave the US and their Super Hero Registration Act out of African affairs.

Perhaps because Wakanda is a famously isolationist nation who hordes it's own wealth from the rest of Africa. I can't see why any other nation would want the Black Panther and Storm anywhere near an African team. Despite how he's shown in his own title, T'Challa is a bit of a douche.

[The Cat]

It's not that it has to.

It would just be nice to see. :biggrin:


It's not only that but I think it would happen. People naturally gravitate to those they are are similiar too. I refuse to believe that this comic book world which marvel has created, and which marvel has tried to reflect real world politics; that African/African-American wouldn't at least try to establish positive relationships with each other.

[bluedmighty]

It's not only that but I think it would happen. People naturally gravitate to those they are are similiar too. I refuse to believe that this comic book world which marvel has created, and which marvel has tried to reflect real world politics; that African/African-American wouldn't at least try to establish positive relationships with each other.

I agree whole heartedly.

I just get really frustrated when people automatically think "racism" when someone brings up an all black team.

All of a sudden various heroes NEED a reason to even be around each other.

I also give propers to Mr. Hudlin and Mr. Priest for the same thing. :biggrin:

On another note (slightly if not blatently off topic),

Incredible Herc is dealing with the Skrull issue from the God side of the ball right?

Why wasn't the Panther God summoned?
The Lion God?
African Gods in general (Orisha and Loa)?

We get Horus as our closest representation (in full eagle face).

Meanwhile (from Marvel.com):

With a membership including Hercules, Snowbird, Ajak of the Eternals, Demogorge "The God-Eater" and last but not least Amatsu-Mikaboshi, the deity responsible for laying waste to Olympus in 2006's ARES limited series, it should come as no surprise that Van Lente describes the group dynamic as "very tense!"

Herc - Greek (real)
Snowbird - Norse ?
Ajak - Russian
Demogorge - Heliopolis (Greek Egypt)(real)
Amatsu-Mikaboshi - Japanese (real)


Where are the gods that represent Africa (You know. The Black ones)?

[DaeJi]

I agree whole heartedly.

I just get really frustrated when people automatically think "racism" when someone brings up an all black team.

Throwing heroes together because of their skin color does carry an air of racism, like it or not. The reason all white teams are not racist is because skin color isn't the basis for membership. All black teams can work, and yes, they suffer a sigma even when it's unfounded.


Incredible Herc is dealing with the Skrull issue from the God side of the ball right?

Why wasn't the Panther God summoned?
The Lion God?
African Gods in general (Orisha and Loa)?

We get Horus as our closest representation (in full eagle face).

Meanwhile (from Marvel.com):

With a membership including Hercules, Snowbird, Ajak of the Eternals, Demogorge "The God-Eater" and last but not least Amatsu-Mikaboshi, the deity responsible for laying waste to Olympus in 2006's ARES limited series, it should come as no surprise that Van Lente describes the group dynamic as "very tense!"

Herc - Greek (real)
Snowbird - Norse ?
Ajak - Russian
Demogorge - Heliopolis (Greek Egypt)(real)
Amatsu-Mikaboshi - Japanese (real)


Where are the gods that represent Africa (You know. The Black ones)?

Pak is a fanboy writer through and through, so he'll pick characters he likes. Just look at Cho. You also need to brush up on your Marvel mythology; Ajak is an Eternal (and should not be there), Demogorge is a god-eater and a form of Ra, an Egyptian god (also shouldn't be there considering his power), and Snowbird is a Canadian spirit. As it turns out, there is an African (Egyptian) god, even if he isn't black. There's no quota in Marvel.

[bluedmighty]

Throwing heroes together because of their skin color does carry an air of racism, like it or not. The reason all white teams are not racist is because skin color isn't the basis for membership.

Why would skin color have to be a basis for membership?

Couldn't some heroes that just happen to be black get together and fight some crime? Beat up on and serve some supper villains maybe?


All black teams can work, and yes, they suffer a sigma even when it's unfounded.

That's all we're saying.

Give us a shot. :biggrin:


Pak is a fanboy writer through and through, so he'll pick characters he likes. Just look at Cho. You also need to brush up on your Marvel mythology; Ajak is an Eternal (and should not be there), Demogorge is a god-eater and a form of Ra, an Egyptian god (also shouldn't be there considering his power), and Snowbird is a Canadian spirit.

I know these guys don't fit the typical "God" bill, but that's the God Squad roster according to Marvel.com. Ajak is an Eternal borne in Siberia, Demogorge is the mutated form of Atum (who was an actual diety worshiped in Heliopolis).

I wasn't sure about Snow Bird, thank you.


As it turns out, there is an African (Egyptian) god, even if he isn't black. There's no quota in Marvel.

So..........

No quota means no Black People?

This is EXACTLY the reason I NEED to have an all Black book.

I'd like to read about the stories, mythos, and legends that relate to characters that look like me.

[akumasan]

It's not only that but I think it would happen. People naturally gravitate to those they are are similiar too. I refuse to believe that this comic book world which marvel has created, and which marvel has tried to reflect real world politics; that African/African-American wouldn't at least try to establish positive relationships with each other.
Unfortunately there are too many clowns that think insert one race as a team it is racist but it has been done already :rolleyes: lol. Of course you can bring up "oh they are a team based on their strengths and experiences" Couldnt the same be addressed if just so happened that each member of the team have all of these advantages and the team is all *insert race*?
For an African Hero Team...or, more precisely a Hero Team based in/out of Africa...why not do what the X-franchise have always done? Mix-it-up. Caucasian:European/Australian, Arabian/Middle Eastern, African, Asian and Indian. The final team would comprise of mutants, non-mutant superpowered humans, highly skilled humans, and a magician/sorceress type (always an exciting addition,imo)...I honestly don't see why the team has to consist of all blacks or all Africans...not in this day and age.
edit: And yes...it would be nice/interesting (for a change) for the creative team to come up with some new and original characters instead of relying solely on already existing or limbo-lised or cast-off characters from other groups.
But the problem it is not being done and it is 2008. They tried at least with Heroes for Hire but it is bunch of B- to C+ listers
Throwing heroes together because of their skin color does carry an air of racism, like it or not. The reason all white teams are not racist is because skin color isn't the basis for membership. All black teams can work, and yes, they suffer a sigma even when it's unfounded.
The same can be said about any team that just so happened to be one race in particular. But since it is a black team it is a problem even though the membership was put together just as much the same?

[Beast]

Why would skin color have to be a basis for membership?

Couldn't some heroes that just happen to be black get together and fight some crime? Beat up on and serve some supper villains maybe?
Because the suggestion always is, that all these black heroes should move to Africa to form a team with other black heroes. And why would just black heroes get together to fight some crime.

[Imraith Nimphais]

I'd like to read about the stories, mythos, and legends that relate to characters that look like me.

You know...I honestly thought that BP would have gone that route...delve deeper into the African mythos...which is one of the reasons I picked it up...but it has been 3 years and some...and nothing...you would have thought that as black-centric as Mr. H. is there would have been a greater exposition of most things Continental African...having said that though...I don't think Marvel, as a whole...would look at, and target a specific demographic (such as we) simply because they are all about of overall sales...how many of us out there would buy a book with only black characters dealing with black issues as opposed to a more general one with genaral themes...and if my memory serves me correctly there was an all-black super hero book in the early-mid nineties...written and drawn by a black creative teamand it did not do very well...

[Expletive Deleted]

And why would just black heroes get together to fight some crime.It'd be artificial, but . . . it's not like Stan Lee came up with a story and then decided who'd be a founding member of the Avengers. When you're putting a superhero team together, starting with the line-up and then tacking on a "reason" for them to all team up is pretty much accepted practice.

[akumasan]

Because the suggestion always is, that all these black heroes should move to Africa to form a team with other black heroes. And why would just black heroes get together to fight some crime.

People would have a problem with an all black even if they are harlem. Wow just Wow :rolleyes: But that shouldnt be on your mind right and who cares. Matter of fact with your whining about this you mind as well remove that signature you have by brian reed.

[Imraith Nimphais]

It'd be artificial, but . . . it's not like Stan Lee came up with a story and then decided who'd be a founding member of the Avengers. When you're putting a superhero team together, starting with the line-up and then tacking on a "reason" for them to all team up is pretty much accepted practice.

Which would, in theory, make any *all-one-race* group coming together to fight crime plausible...BECAUSE..they all have a shared commonality...a shared reason for coming together...to effect chage...as opposed to a team made up of an alien, a demi-god, a human, a mutant and an android...I would buy an all-black book...but just as I judge all the other books i buy with my hard earned cash...i will only continue to support it if and only IF it is written and drawn well...that's the deciding factor for me...to a large extent I really don't care if its a book with only gods, or humans or microscopic algae.

[bluedmighty]

Because the suggestion always is, that all these black heroes should move to Africa to form a team with other black heroes.


Why not? Especially with things the way they are in Marvel US.

But aside from that, It's been pointed out to me that there are a slew of African characters that could be placed on the team.



And why would just black heroes get together to fight some crime.

Becuase they all happened to be in the same place, at the same time?
:biggrin:

[Grimm]

When they set up Excalibur in Britain, how many Brits did they have? 1.
When DC Set up JL Europe, how many Europeans did they have? 0?

You don't really need Africans to launch an African book, as both publishers have proven. That being said, I can't see for one minute it'd be around long. Who is gonna be in it? Who are they gonna fight? What demographic are they going to reach?

It's much, much more practical to have an all black team in the US. And chances are it'd sell a hell of a lot better. Personally, I'd rather see a minority team than an all-black team. But whatever floats peoples boats.

I wouldn't see it as racist either, both publishers have had all-girl teams form. That isn't sexist, so why would this be racist?

[The Cat]

I agree whole heartedly.

I just get really frustrated when people automatically think "racism" when someone brings up an all black team.

All of a sudden various heroes NEED a reason to even be around each other.

I also give propers to Mr. Hudlin and Mr. Priest for the same thing. :biggrin:

On another note (slightly if not blatently off topic),

Incredible Herc is dealing with the Skrull issue from the God side of the ball right?

Why wasn't the Panther God summoned?
The Lion God?
African Gods in general (Orisha and Loa)?

We get Horus as our closest representation (in full eagle face).

Meanwhile (from Marvel.com):

With a membership including Hercules, Snowbird, Ajak of the Eternals, Demogorge "The God-Eater" and last but not least Amatsu-Mikaboshi, the deity responsible for laying waste to Olympus in 2006's ARES limited series, it should come as no surprise that Van Lente describes the group dynamic as "very tense!"

Herc - Greek (real)
Snowbird - Norse ?
Ajak - Russian
Demogorge - Heliopolis (Greek Egypt)(real)
Amatsu-Mikaboshi - Japanese (real)


Where are the gods that represent Africa (You know. The Black ones)?

In my opinion all of the Kemetian (Egyptian to some) Gods are African... But Marvel hasn't got the balls to represent them correctly.

Regarding Horus they could off at least used his proper name which is "Heru"; which funny enough is where the word "Hero" comes from.

[The Cool Thatguy]

In my opinion all of the Kemetian (Egyptian to some) Gods are African... But Marvel hasn't got the balls to represent them correctly.

Regarding Horus they could off at least used his proper name which is "Heru"; which funny enough is where the word "Hero" comes from.

Actually, Priest tied the African and Egyption Gods together a long time ago. When T'Challa was hurt and needed to reconnect with the Panther Spirit, he needed Moon Knight's help to act as a conduit, due to the heroe's own connection to the Egyption gods.

[akumasan]

Which would, in theory, make any *all-one-race* group coming together to fight crime plausible...BECAUSE..they all have a shared commonality...a shared reason for coming together...to effect chage...as opposed to a team made up of an alien, a demi-god, a human, a mutant and an android...I would buy an all-black book...but just as I judge all the other books i buy with my hard earned cash...i will only continue to support it if and only IF it is written and drawn well...that's the deciding factor for me...to a large extent I really don't care if its a book with only gods, or humans or microscopic algae.
Exactly and that should be it for any reader of any book.

[bluedmighty]

You know...I honestly thought that BP would have gone that route...delve deeper into the African mythos...which is one of the reasons I picked it up...but it has been 3 years and some...and nothing...you would have thought that as black-centric as Mr. H. is there would have been a greater exposition of most things Continental African...having said that though...I don't think Marvel, as a whole...would look at, and target a specific demographic (such as we) simply because they are all about of overall sales..

I can only speculate as to the reason Mr. Hudlin hasn't already gone into any of that. But, the Annual gave me hope that some more afrocentric stories are coming our way.

Speaking of which, what writer handled the third version of the Black Panther?

I found a source online that links the Yoruba people of Africa to the "Deviant" strain of Externals.

Suffice it to say,

I'm offended. :evilangry:



how many of us out there would buy a book with only black characters dealing with black issues as opposed to a more general one with genaral themes...and if my memory serves me correctly there was an all-black super hero book in the early-mid nineties...written and drawn by a black creative teamand it did not do very well...

I would.

Are you talking about Milestone?

[bluedmighty]

In my opinion all of the Kemetian (Egyptian to some) Gods are African... But Marvel hasn't got the balls to represent them correctly.

Regarding Horus they could off at least used his proper name which is "Heru"; which funny enough is where the word "Hero" comes from.

Well, it is what it is.

After all Herkules was Black (Egyption/Ethiopian)

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/18/Herakles_Kerberos_Louvre_A481.jpg/800px-Herakles_Kerberos_Louvre_A481.jpg&imgrefurl=http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Herakles_Kerberos_Louvre_A481.jpg&start=16&h=574&w=800&sz=105&tbnid=3BAH6B6c6CQsQM:&tbnh=103&tbnw=143&hl=en&prev=/images%3Fq%3DHerakles%2Bwas%2Bblack%26gbv%3D1%26hl %3Den%26sa%3DG

http://www.africaresource.com/rasta/sesostris-the-great-the-egyptian-hercules/sesostris-the-great-the-egyptian-hercules/

http://members.tripod.com/jrmoore1958/hercules.html

http://members.tripod.com/jrmoore1958/hercules.html

But, meh
:tongue:

[Imraith Nimphais]

yes ...Milestone comics...I vaguely remember picking up random issues of Icon and Hardware...and thinking "Why?" The art was just okay...and the writing seemed just bit too stereotypical...even for me, a London lad of mixed parentage..."A" for effort but "C" for execution.

[XPac]

You know...I honestly thought that BP would have gone that route...delve deeper into the African mythos...which is one of the reasons I picked it up...but it has been 3 years and some...and nothing...you would have thought that as black-centric as Mr. H. is there would have been a greater exposition of most things Continental African...having said that though...I don't think Marvel, as a whole...would look at, and target a specific demographic (such as we) simply because they are all about of overall sales...how many of us out there would buy a book with only black characters dealing with black issues as opposed to a more general one with genaral themes...and if my memory serves me correctly there was an all-black super hero book in the early-mid nineties...written and drawn by a black creative teamand it did not do very well...

Maybe it's just the vibe I'm getting, but I think Hudlin is making BP less about African cutlure and more about African American culture.

And in large part, his little corner of africa is so perfet and utopian, there's almost no story there to really cover. It's nice that bad things are finally happening there, and we can actually get some stories with him in africa rather than dealing with issues in the US.

BP is a very unique character... he's not just a superhero. He's an african king. I think he needs to play with that element a bit more.

[The Cat]

Well, it is what it is.

After all Herkules was Black (Egyption/Ethiopian)

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/18/Herakles_Kerberos_Louvre_A481.jpg/800px-Herakles_Kerberos_Louvre_A481.jpg&imgrefurl=http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Herakles_Kerberos_Louvre_A481.jpg&start=16&h=574&w=800&sz=105&tbnid=3BAH6B6c6CQsQM:&tbnh=103&tbnw=143&hl=en&prev=/images%3Fq%3DHerakles%2Bwas%2Bblack%26gbv%3D1%26hl %3Den%26sa%3DG

http://www.africaresource.com/rasta/sesostris-the-great-the-egyptian-hercules/sesostris-the-great-the-egyptian-hercules/

http://members.tripod.com/jrmoore1958/hercules.html

http://members.tripod.com/jrmoore1958/hercules.html

But, meh
:tongue:


So true... :biggrin:

I had to trim my response earlier, because I felt a rant coming on!

[mightiness]

I appreciate the character Black Panther but I truly believe that this entire current series is utter crap. I hope somehow that Storm has been a Skrull this whole time and they never got married. Please please somebody cancel this title soon. Where is Dwayne McDuffie when you need him to write T'challa.

Why can't we get a Falcon series? He deserves a series.

[XPac]

I appreciate the character Black Panther but I truly believe that this entire current series is utter crap. I hope somehow that Storm has been a Skrull this whole time and they never got married. Please please somebody cancel this title soon. Where is Dwayne McDuffie when you need him to write T'challa.

Why can't we get a Falcon series? He deserves a series.

Though I had issues with McDuffie's BP during his FF run, I will say that he had some fun character interaction between BP, Storm, and the rest of the FF.

Though I do have some issues with BP and Storms marriage, I think a skrull reveal would be too cheap a cop out. That said, I wish we could turn back the clock and develop their relationship more before getting them married. The way it was rushed and forced on us really made the thing seem more like a publicity stunt than anything else. But the marriage itself, I personally don't mind.

[The Cat]

yes ...Milestone comics...I vaguely remember picking up random issues of Icon and Hardware...and thinking "Why?" The art was just okay...and the writing seemed just bit too stereotypical...even for me, a London lad of mixed parentage..."A" for effort but "C" for execution.


Similar story really regarding Milestone. I picked up a few back in the day.
I thought the stories had promise, but then they disappeared with no explanation.

[Imraith Nimphais]

Maybe it's just the vibe I'm getting, but I think Hudlin is making BP less about African cutlure and more about African American culture.
BP is a very unique character... he's not just a superhero. He's an african king. I think he needs to play with that element a bit more.

Agreed...he should delve deeper into the whole African mythos, as it remains a very much un-explored aspect of the MU as a whole in terms of its diverse history, cultures, landscapes, religions, mythologies..the story possibilities are boundless.
The way I see it...your African-American identity is tied inextricably to your (and to an extent, my) African Heritage...but I am not the BP writer am I.

[bluedmighty]

yes ...Milestone comics...I vaguely remember picking up random issues of Icon and Hardware...and thinking "Why?" The art was just okay...and the writing seemed just bit too stereotypical...even for me, a London lad of mixed parentage..."A" for effort but "C" for execution.

I LOVED Milestone.

Then all the characters just vanisehed and DC acts like they never existed.

Well, everyone but Static.

As for the writting, it was during a time in America when African Americans were re discovering their importance as a people (X had just come out and Cross colors were huge, and Martin had just helped change the face of Comedy).

I don't doubt that the attitudes and some of the dialect felt different streotypical to someone overseas. I was in germany at the time buying my books from the Stars and Stripes :biggrin:. My cousin had come to stay with us from 1992-1995 and during that time I was exposed to my "Blackness" (I'm a DoD's kid, long story).

So true... :biggrin:

I had to trim my response earlier, because I felt a rant coming on!

It's hard to free the minds of older people.
Once a mind reaches a certain age it has trouble letting go :biggrin:

Maybe it's just the vibe I'm getting, but I think Hudlin is making BP less about African cutlure and more about African American culture.

I agree, to an extent.


And in large part, his little corner of africa is so perfet and utopian, there's almost no story there to really cover. It's nice that bad things are finally happening there, and we can actually get some stories with him in africa rather than dealing with issues in the US.

Agreed.

I for one would like to see more of Wakanda and her people.


BP is a very unique character... he's not just a superhero. He's an african king. I think he needs to play with that element a bit more.

True. But I think that part of being a King is commanding a large amount of resources and delegating responsibility.

For me, the Skrull arc showed that the Wakandan Chain of command is able to function without T'challa standing over their shoulders. It also showed the incredible resources at his disposal (Time/Space frogs, Space Ships, and Cosmic Weapons).

Agreed...he should delve deeper into the whole African mythos, as it remains a very much un-explored aspect of the MU as a whole in terms of its diverse history, cultures, landscapes, religions, mythologies..the story possibilities are boundless.
The way I see it...your African-American identity is tied inextricably to your (and to an extent, my) African Heritage...but I am not the BP writer am I.

I agree with everything here, especially the bolded. Boundless is right, but are we holding Mr. Hudlin to a different standard than everbody else? Many many writers have ignored Africa (Incredible Hercules to name the most recent), aand have missed out on developing it as a backdrop.

I would wager that people know more about Marel Latveria then they know about Marvel Africa.

[Hypestyle]

for what it's worth, I do hope aaron's stint sells extremely well-- but if it doesn't? oh, I'm sure haters will find a way to blame Mr. Reggie...

[Excelsior]

for what it's worth, I do hope aaron's stint sells extremely well-- but if it doesn't? oh, I'm sure haters will find a way to blame Mr. Reggie...

I reread the first 10 issues of Hudlin's run and I enjoyed them. Wakanda was retconned into a nation of butt-kickers and name takers. For that I will always give Hudlin some love.

I am interested in Aaron's take, tho.

[The Cool Thatguy]

I reread the first 10 issues of Hudlin's run and I enjoyed them. Wakanda was retconned into a nation of butt-kickers and name takers. For that I will always give Hudlin some love.

I am interested in Aaron's take, tho.

That's not a recon. They were bad ass under Priest and written so by some writers who remembered how advanced Wakanda is.

[Excelsior]

That's not a recon. They were bad ass under Priest and written so by some writers who remembered how advanced Wakanda is.


Dont get me wrong I love Preists run as well. But He never showed BP or Wakandans blasting slave traders and imperialistic exploiters nor show BP handing Cap a beatdown.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Dont get me wrong I love Preists run as well. But He never showed BP or Wakandans blasting slave traders and imperialistic exploiters nor show BP handing Cap a beatdown.

Ya know, I have to wonder what it is exactly that Cap did to deserve a beatdown at Panther's hands.

[IronPalm]

[QUOTE=bluedmighty;6779081]
I found a source online that links the Yoruba people of Africa to the "Deviant" strain of Externals.

Suffice it to say,

I'm offended. :evilangry:
QUOTE]

Quesada actually, if you can believe this, had an idea in Wizard a couple years back with using the Orisha gods (yuruba) as being hispanic....the only connection that i know is the Afro Brazilians but you cant actually list hem as hispanic....weird.

[Imraith Nimphais]

[QUOTE=bluedmighty;6779081]
Quesada actually, if you can believe this, had an idea in Wizard a couple years back with using the Orisha gods (yuruba) as being hispanic....the only connection that i know is the Afro Brazilians but you cant actually list hem as hispanic....weird.

...and THAT right there...explains a whole lot about what is currently wrong in the MU...and I'm not talking solely about BP...sigh.:frown:

[bluedmighty]

Quesada actually, if you can believe this, had an idea in Wizard a couple years back with using the Orisha gods (yuruba) as being hispanic....the only connection that i know is the Afro Brazilians but you cant actually list hem as hispanic....weird.

I remember reading something about that.

I thought they were suposed to be "Voodoo" type characters.

The connection between Afro Brazillian Orishas and Yuruba Orishas

Is the same connection between "Capoirerra" (sp) and dancing the "Angola"

Namely African.

But try telling a Brazillian person that :biggrin:

[QUOTE=IronPalm;6781423]

...and THAT right there...explains a whole lot about what is currently wrong in the MU...and I'm not talking solely about BP...sigh.:frown:

I agree.

I was disapointed in the Hercules issue, as I thought I'd finally get to see Ma'at, the African Gods or The Panther God interacting with the other "Gods".

[XPac]

True. But I think that part of being a King is commanding a large amount of resources and delegating responsibility.

For me, the Skrull arc showed that the Wakandan Chain of command is able to function without T'challa standing over their shoulders. It also showed the incredible resources at his disposal (Time/Space frogs, Space Ships, and Cosmic Weapons).



I do realize that this is a comic book, so the meat and potatoes of it has to be running around beating up badguys.

That said, I think he can find a better balance than what we are seeing. I know people are probably sick to death of hearing comparrisons with Priests BP, but I think he incorporated the political aspects into a superhero books pretty well. See that that in Iron Man and Captain America too. A bit more of that in BP I think would be nice.

I'm sure he does have an excellent staff but geez, this is the first time he's even set foot in Wakanda in like 2 years. Spending a bit of time there, and focusing on building up more of a supporting cast for him would go a long ways to improving this book in my opinion.

[IronPalm]

[QUOTE=IronPalm;6781423]

...and THAT right there...explains a whole lot about what is currently wrong in the MU...and I'm not talking solely about BP...sigh.:frown:

Yeah I studied carnival culture a few semesters ago and it showcased these gods in Rio and in Trinidad and Tobego...
The Quesada stuff puzzled me at the time...

[HepOne]

Quesada actually, if you can believe this, had an idea in Wizard a couple years back with using the Orisha gods (yuruba) as being hispanic....the only connection that i know is the Afro Brazilians but you cant actually list hem as hispanic....weird.

He used it in Daredevil Father heres a website http://www.santerians.com/santerians.html I never got the idea that he was trying to take anything away from it. It was just the normal "superhero adaption" placing them in Hells Kitchen, half the characters were Afro-Brazilian as well.

They will never be seen again, Quesada doesnt have the time and no one else cares.

[Daouda]

I LOVED Milestone.

Then all the characters just vanisehed and DC acts like they never existed.

Well, everyone but Static.

As for the writting, it was during a time in America when African Americans were re discovering their importance as a people (X had just come out and Cross colors were huge, and Martin had just helped change the face of Comedy).

I don't doubt that the attitudes and some of the dialect felt different streotypical to someone overseas. I was in germany at the time buying my books from the Stars and Stripes. My cousin had come to stay with us from 1992-1995 and during that time I was exposed to my "Blackness" (I'm a DoD's kid, long story).

Milestone was tha Bomb!

The worst written Milestone comic was equal to the average writing of Marvel or DC,
the average writing on Milestone was two steps above the mainstream publishers and their vision was unequaled in the US comic scene.

I wasn't initially a fan of the imprint because, being a Marvel comic fan, you unconsciously pick up narrative constraints, and one of them was that black characters don't interact with each other like, you know, in real life and especially mustn't if the comic is to "succed". Who wants to back a loser?

I got into Milestone after seeing a crossover with Superman, of all characters. I noted that Superman was drawn exceptionally well on the cover of the crossover and decided to buy the issue not knowing anything about the Milestone characters involved except they seemed a stereotypical "gang".

I was pleasantly surprised.

Not only was the art great, (early Chrisscross) but the Blood Syndicate was interesting enough for me to buy the current issue of that series. Now I was blown away. I dropped $50 dollars the next day and got all of the back issues!

From the Syndicate I hesitantly branched out, thinking that there was no way the next series I read from Milestone would be as good the last and everytime being shown I was wrong.:smile:

I was sad when Milestone stopped publishing but am glad for the memories.:smile:


It's hard to free the minds of older people.
Once a mind reaches a certain age it has trouble letting go :biggrin:
You must understand, most people don't want to be freed from the Matrix. They can't even see it's artificiality and thus mistake its vision as right and proper.:biggrin:



For me, the Skrull arc showed that the Wakandan Chain of command is able to function without T'challa standing over their shoulders. It also showed the incredible resources at his disposal (Time/Space frogs, Space Ships, and Cosmic Weapons).

I see it the same way and do think Reg could have crosscut with Wakanda as well in certain issues.


...but are we holding Mr. Hudlin to a different standard than everbody else? Many many writers have ignored Africa (Incredible Hercules to name the most recent), aand have missed out on developing it as a backdrop.

I would wager that people know more about Marvel Latveria then they know about Marvel Africa.

True... True...

Well said Mighty BlueD! It's a pleasure to read your posts!



Excelsior!

Daoud

[Daouda]

for what it's worth, I do hope aaron's stint sells extremely well-- but if it doesn't? oh, I'm sure haters will find a way to blame Mr. Reggie...

Hypestyle,

The nature of comic forums, for alot of people, seem to be a place to complain.

Just remember that all of the critics added together, don't equal the amount of people who buy and enjoy BP every month. My feeling is you can't please everyone so you might as well please yourself.

My only complaint is that it is not out more often.:smile:


Excelsior!

Daoud

[bluedmighty]

Peace Daouda :biggrin:



My only complaint is that it is not out more often.:smile:


Excelsior!

Daoud

I was sad when I looked at the solicitations for last month, only to realize that we would have to wait until the end of May for the continuation of The Killmonger arc.

That said, I'm foamin at the mouth to smell what Killmonger's cookin
:biggrin:

[Loren]

The worst written Milestone comic was equal to the average writing of Marvel or DC,
the average writing on Milestone was two steps above the mainstream publishers and their vision was unequaled in the US comic scene.

As much as I agree with the latter clause, I gotta take issue with the first one. Because Hardware #26-28, the fill-in "Hunt for Deathwish" arc, might possibly be the worst comic book story I've ever read.

[akumasan]

Maybe it's just the vibe I'm getting, but I think Hudlin is making BP less about African cutlure and more about African American culture.

And in large part, his little corner of africa is so perfet and utopian, there's almost no story there to really cover. It's nice that bad things are finally happening there, and we can actually get some stories with him in africa rather than dealing with issues in the US.

BP is a very unique character... he's not just a superhero. He's an african king. I think he needs to play with that element a bit more.
Yep it should go a bit deeper into that. However Priest has done the same telling stories about BPs country and people and readers were complaining that he "wasnt following continuity" which is somewhat the same for hudlin
I appreciate the character Black Panther but I truly believe that this entire current series is utter crap. I hope somehow that Storm has been a Skrull this whole time and they never got married. Please please somebody cancel this title soon. Where is Dwayne McDuffie when you need him to write T'challa.

Why can't we get a Falcon series? He deserves a series.
Falcon? are you serious? come on lol. Matter of fact the line "I like the character but the book should be cancelled" is getting old.
Ya know, I have to wonder what it is exactly that Cap did to deserve a beatdown at Panther's hands.
Easy you show up without notice

[The Cool Thatguy]

Easy you show up without notice

You know, I'm almost getting used to getting the brush off after asking legitmate questions about Hudlin's Panther.

[akumasan]

You know, I'm almost getting used to getting the brush off after asking legitmate questions about Hudlin's Panther.
dude that basically sums it. Cap Am shows up unannounced looking for nazis (who are dead by the way) and in retrospect he is invading his land. Is that better? lol

[The Cool Thatguy]

dude that basically sums it. Cap Am shows up unannounced looking for nazis (who are dead by the way) and in retrospect he is invading his land. Is that better? lol

Not really, when the original depiction had him leading a team on an expedition. Besides, judging from the below...

"Dont get me wrong I love Preists run as well. But He never showed BP or Wakandans blasting slave traders and imperialistic exploiters nor show BP handing Cap a beatdown."

I've seen that a dozens of times. People seem to act like Cap was like Killmonger or some other villain, in need of a beat down. Instead of the brotherly depiction that we've had for decades.

[akumasan]

Not really, when the original depiction had him leading a team on an expedition. Besides, judging from the below...

"Dont get me wrong I love Preists run as well. But He never showed BP or Wakandans blasting slave traders and imperialistic exploiters nor show BP handing Cap a beatdown."

I've seen that a dozens of times. People seem to act like Cap was like Killmonger or some other villain, in need of a beat down. Instead of the brotherly depiction that we've had for decades.

True he did an "expedition" but at the same time he is still invading another country unannouced looking for others that were invading the country trying to steal goods. The fact remains that Cap Am showed up without permission doing a "secret mission" The same goes for US troops currently going to any country doing an expedition without addressing the proper people. But I guess since they werent apart of UN any country can just go about unannounced?

[Excelsior]

http://prophetess.lstc.edu/~rklein/images/ses3.jpg

Arab egyptians have cut off many noses to spite historical faces..see---King Sesostris 1

http://prophetess.lstc.edu/~rklein/images/cmentu3.jpg

[XPac]

Yep it should go a bit deeper into that. However Priest has done the same telling stories about BPs country and people and readers were complaining that he "wasnt following continuity" which is somewhat the same for hudlin



That's interesting... what were the continuity problems with Priest run?

[IronPalm]

I hadnt been able to really enjoy a black panther series since Priest wrote it. I honestly hate the direction that this book has taken and pray to God that Storm is a Skrull:redface:

[akumasan]

That's interesting... what were the continuity problems with Priest run?
For example the 3 part Return of The Dragon Arc with a cameo with Iron FIst. Below is a post by Priest on his site

Sal and Bob were now totally in the zone. Our Return of The Dragon arc, designed specifically to tie up and dump continuity baggage acquired the last time we thought we were cancelled (issue #30), was interrupted by 'Nuff Said Month— a month where all Marvel Comics were published with no dialogue. The plot, such as it was, concerned Mephisto answering Ross' door, Gyrich's duties as Panther's handler, the Defenders (don't ask) the mystery of the second Panther, and the political fallout from Malice, the Panther's nutty Dora Milaje, having killed demonstrators outside of the Wakandan Consulate (issue #31). BLACK PANTHER was carrying a lot of baggage and was wholly impenetrable to new readers. Mike Marts, Mike Raicht and I spun around and around and decided we needed to purge the series of this weight and do it fast. Since I never do anything simply or directly, I decided to take all of this continuity and add an even larger complication to it: Chiantang, Brother of the Dragon King. an old, fun, Godzilla-sized threat from my Power Man & Iron Fist days (Chiantang was re-dubbed "Black Dragon"). Black Dragon's backstory was immensely, unthinkably complicated. Why I thought draggin' all of that in would help me simplify PANTHER, I'll never know. The dizzying amount of plot threads and continuity we went into with ...Dragon was complicated all the more by there being a "silent" issue right in the middle of it. As a writer, this mess presented a unique challenge. As a reader, it must have been hell to try and sift through.IMO i didnt see it as a big deal also at times he was forced to do "crossovers" to stay alive such as Maximum Secuity.

By the way I do have The Return of the Dragon :smile: :biggrin: :tongue:

[SUPERECWFAN1]

I hadnt been able to really enjoy a black panther series since Priest wrote it. I honestly hate the direction that this book has taken and pray to God that Storm is a Skrull:redface:

Storm as a Skrull would kickall kinds of ass....and stories there would be fun.

[Hindsight lad]

[QUOTE=IronPalm;6781423][QUOTE=bluedmighty;6779081]
I found a source online that links the Yoruba people of Africa to the "Deviant" strain of Externals.

Suffice it to say,

I'm offended. :evilangry:
QUOTE]

I can't be 100% sure about this, but I think that this might be a misinterpretation of an issue of Priest's Panther. Issue 26 (I think) was right after Maximum Security, when lots of alien planets made the Earth a prison for the criminals of the universe. At the beginning of the issue, Storm and Panther come across a SHIELD agent rounding up some aliens and discover that one of the aliens is actually a Deviant with a human-looking baby. The Deviant (and maybe the baby) spoke Yoruba, but I don't think they ever implied that the Yoruba themselves were Deviants or mutates.

Priest peppered a lot of his issues with African languages: Yoruba, Hausa, and I think Igbo. I think Priest would have placed Wakanda somewhere around Nigeria (where all of the above languages are spoken), rather than in East Africa where the Marvel Atlas places it. Wakanda's location is problematic. If they have a sea coast, as has been depicted on numerous occasions, then it would have been difficult for them to have escaped detection by European and other powers for the centuries. If it located in East Africa, then they probably wouldn't have encountered many European slavers (my knowledge is sadly lacking, but I think Europeans mainly took slaves from Western and Southern Africa, while Arab slavers operated in EAstern Africa). Oh well.

Hindsight lad

[nickmarino]

Arab egyptians have cut off many noses to spite historical faces..see---King Sesostris 1


it's pretty @#$%ed up how the noses all got lopped off. i was at a large ancient egyptian art exhibit in boston and they managed to save some stuff that wasn't de-nosed. it's more than fairly obvious that it was culturally motivated vandalism.

[The Cool Thatguy]

True he did an "expedition" but at the same time he is still invading another country unannouced looking for others that were invading the country trying to steal goods. The fact remains that Cap Am showed up without permission doing a "secret mission" The same goes for US troops currently going to any country doing an expedition without addressing the proper people. But I guess since they werent apart of UN any country can just go about unannounced?

There was no UN, and Wakanda was still a secret nation at the time. There was no possible way to get permission. Cap was following up on a nazi expedition that managed to smuggle some vibranium out of Wakanda (presumably, said vibranium was intercepted by allied forces.)

Wasn't as if Cap threw his weight around. When he saw that his men were surrounded by armed soldiers, Cap orders his troops to safety their weapons, saying, "Of course they have us surrounded. They live here."

For example the 3 part Return of The Dragon Arc with a cameo with Iron FIst. Below is a post by Priest on his site

IMO i didnt see it as a big deal also at times he was forced to do "crossovers" to stay alive such as Maximum Secuity.

By the way I do have The Return of the Dragon :smile: :biggrin: :tongue:

I don't think you're reading that right. Priest wasn't responding to continuity complaints. Rather, he observed that Black Dragon had alot of continuity surrounding him, and given that, a silent issue isn't the best way to follow up and explain said continuity.

Not that he needed too, IMO. 'Old foe of Iron Fist' was all you needed to 'get' Black Dragon, I think.

[Frostbite883]

Did you guys and gals heard about Kiber the Cruel guess-starring in Marvel
Adventures: Iron Man #15 and if any of ya'll do, can one of you give me the spoilers
of the MA: IM issue through a private message (if you can't type any spoilers about the issue).

[Porcelain]

Storm as a Skrull would kickall kinds of ass....and stories there would be fun.
Given how certain Skrulls have been revealed (and who), plus the reinforcement of no power on earth can discover them, it doesn't seem as entirely improbable as it did earlier, either.

[Frostbite883]

Marvel
Adventures: Iron Man #15

Sorry, I mistaken issue twelve for issue fifteen.

[akumasan]

There was no UN, and Wakanda was still a secret nation at the time. There was no possible way to get permission. Cap was following up on a nazi expedition that managed to smuggle some vibranium out of Wakanda (presumably, said vibranium was intercepted by allied forces.)

Wasn't as if Cap threw his weight around. When he saw that his men were surrounded by armed soldiers, Cap orders his troops to safety their weapons, saying, "Of course they have us surrounded. They live here."



I don't think you're reading that right. Priest wasn't responding to continuity complaints. Rather, he observed that Black Dragon had alot of continuity surrounding him, and given that, a silent issue isn't the best way to follow up and explain said continuity.

Not that he needed too, IMO. 'Old foe of Iron Fist' was all you needed to 'get' Black Dragon, I think.

You just dont show up anywhere unannounced or show up to a country that you have no clue about and not expect some form of retaliation especially if you are apart of the military.

[DaeJi]

You just dont show up anywhere unannounced or show up to a country that you have no clue about and not expect some form of retaliation especially if you are apart of the military.

And Cap knew about Wakanda then because...?

[Hindsight lad]

Here's a question designed to spark controversy: Is Wakanda a theocracy? Is the Panther the head of the Panther religion the way that Elizabeth II is head of the Church of England? Does he have spiritual authority over his people as well as temporal political authority?

Jason Aaron quoted Reggie Hudlin as saying the President, Joint Chiefs and Pope all rolled into one, and that got me thinking just what spiritual duties are. What are the tenents and core beliefs of the Panther religion (does it have a name)?

For that matter, does Wakanda have a state religion? Are there any Christians or Muslums in Wakanda? If there are, how are they treated? Africa has such a rich spiritual history to explore, and no authors have really scratched the surface, IMHO. This might also present an opportunity to use the new Black Knight; as a Vatican operative imprisoned in Africa, he has an opportunity to observe and comment on the nation around him and also grow from what he observes.

On the Egyptian mythology front, this seems to be an interesting place to use the character Aegis, an African-American empowered by the Greek gods. As an archaelogist, maybe he can explore the Eurocentric/Afrocentric views of history, and get the opinions of the gods themselves on the matter. Also, is it possible that the gods of Marvel might be like Galactus; that is, since they are beings empowered by belief, they would take on whatever form their believers give them. So, to Americans bred on Kevin Sorbo and bad Italian films, Hercules is a white lunkhead with a beard and a mace, but if he traveled to Africa the people would see him as Nubian Herucles.

Hindsight lad

[kidpernicious]

Also, is it possible that the gods of Marvel might be like Galactus; that is, since they are beings empowered by belief, they would take on whatever form their believers give them. So, to Americans bred on Kevin Sorbo and bad Italian films, Hercules is a white lunkhead with a beard and a mace, but if he traveled to Africa the people would see him as Nubian Herucles.

Hindsight lad
Hercules is originally a Greek myth, eventually adopted into Roman myth, and has always extended in a straight line from there to any other modern area that happens to know the story of Hercules. Meaning he should appear as a white man, of Mediterranean origin. If Hercules traveled to Africa there's no reason the people wouldn't see him as a white man. I guess if Marvel wanted to go that route they could, but why now, when they've never done it yet? Hercules is Hercules.

[The Cool Thatguy]

You just dont show up anywhere unannounced or show up to a country that you have no clue about and not expect some form of retaliation especially if you are apart of the military.

Again, Wakanda was a 'secret' nation and had no embassy, anywhere. Cap didn't go in guns blazing. He marched in and did his best to respect the locals while completing an important mission. He was by no means an imperial tool (that Hudlin wants to depict him as).

[Alpha Male]

I appreciate the character Black Panther but I truly believe that this entire current series is utter crap. I hope somehow that Storm has been a Skrull this whole time and they never got married. Please please somebody cancel this title soon. Where is Dwayne McDuffie when you need him to write T'challa.

Why can't we get a Falcon series? He deserves a series.

While that would make an interesting twist, I don't think that's the direction Hudlin's going in with The Black Panther. Plus cancelling BP won't do nothing but sentence Black Panther to limbo or the guest star circuit. Speaking of Skrulls, I have a feeling that T'Challa's Uncle's or Killmonger is a Skrull.

[Nate Grey]

Just cause I have it handy...

http://a440.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/91/l_ba0589a57d656e0ebf0d1aa9e49d76d7.jpg

I must have this book. All twelve volumns.

[Skytheen]

Here's a question designed to spark controversy: Is Wakanda a theocracy? Is the Panther the head of the Panther religion the way that Elizabeth II is head of the Church of England? Does he have spiritual authority over his people as well as temporal political authority?

Jason Aaron quoted Reggie Hudlin as saying the President, Joint Chiefs and Pope all rolled into one, and that got me thinking just what spiritual duties are. What are the tenents and core beliefs of the Panther religion (does it have a name)?

For that matter, does Wakanda have a state religion? Are there any Christians or Muslums in Wakanda? If there are, how are they treated? Africa has such a rich spiritual history to explore, and no authors have really scratched the surface, IMHO. This might also present an opportunity to use the new Black Knight; as a Vatican operative imprisoned in Africa, he has an opportunity to observe and comment on the nation around him and also grow from what he observes.

On the Egyptian mythology front, this seems to be an interesting place to use the character Aegis, an African-American empowered by the Greek gods. As an archaelogist, maybe he can explore the Eurocentric/Afrocentric views of history, and get the opinions of the gods themselves on the matter. Also, is it possible that the gods of Marvel might be like Galactus; that is, since they are beings empowered by belief, they would take on whatever form their believers give them. So, to Americans bred on Kevin Sorbo and bad Italian films, Hercules is a white lunkhead with a beard and a mace, but if he traveled to Africa the people would see him as Nubian Herucles.

Hindsight lad
I think the Wakanda government (if you can call it that) is totally a theocracy. I think that nearly 100% of Wakanda's citizens are followers of the Panther religion or whatever so there are no other religions represented in Wakanda. This is partly because the country is so extremely isolationistic. That and its resources are why Wakanda is so successfully strong and for so long.

[Daouda]

I reread the first 10 issues of Hudlin's run and I enjoyed them. Wakanda was retconned into a nation of butt-kickers and name takers. For that I will always give Hudlin some love.

I am interested in Aaron's take, tho.Dont get me wrong I love Preists run as well. But He never showed BP or Wakandans blasting slave traders and imperialistic exploiters nor show BP handing Cap a beatdown.

Excelsior (cool handle),

I too appreciate how the current series doesn't beat around the bush on certain issues as well as the writing of the characters.


Excelsior!

Daoud

[Daouda]

Double post. :smile:

Daoud

[Daouda]

The fact remains that Cap Am showed up without permission doing a "secret mission" The same goes for US troops currently going to any country doing an expedition without addressing the proper people.

What up Akumasan!

The best part about Cap getting beat was the reaction shown by a military brass on the next page who had been previously talking ****.:biggrin:

You just dont show up anywhere unannounced or show up to a country that you have no clue about and not expect some form of retaliation especially if you are apart of the military.

Exactly.

And if Cap didn't know about Wakanda, Wakanda definitely knew about the United States. They were not about to let some ignorant military freakshow from a nation they had been secretly at war with (over the north Atlantic slave trade) and just as secretly been at peace with, roam unchecked.:mad:

After killing the Germans who, to the Wakandans, were simply another manifestation of a colonial European country, Cap was honoured to just have been beaten and taken into the confidence of the Black Panther.

As a Steve Rogers fan, I was pleased.

The young Captain America was lucky he wasn't killed.

As a Black Panther fan I was even happier. T'Challa's ancestor showed not only strength, but also mercy and foresight befitting a true king.

I love it.:smile:


Excelsior!

Daoud

[Excelsior]

What up Akumasan!

The best part about Cap getting beat was the reaction shown by a military brass on the next page who had been previously talking ****.:biggrin:



Exactly.

And if Cap didn't know about Wakanda, Wakanda definitely knew about the United States. They were not about to let some ignorant military freakshow from a nation they had been secretly at war with (over the north Atlantic slave trade) and just as secretly been at peace with, roam unchecked.:mad:

After killing the Germans who, to the Wakandans, were simply another manifestation of a colonial European country, Cap was honoured to just have been beaten and taken into the confidence of the Black Panther.

As a Steve Rogers fan, I was pleased.

The young Captain America was lucky he wasn't killed.

As a Black Panther fan I was even happier. T'Challa's ancestor showed not only strength, but also mercy and foresight befitting a true king.

I love it.:smile:


Excelsior!

Daoud

Word! I love the change in BP.

I Ihave read all of the Panther stories-FF, Jungle Action, Prey limited series, Preists run, Hudlins and Marvel Adventures. I prefer the current @ss kickin Panther to the ripped costume/ beggin 4 help one. That being said I wants that Essential Trade of BP, maybe Marvel will publish one in time for the Black Panther animated series.

[akumasan]

Again, Wakanda was a 'secret' nation and had no embassy, anywhere. Cap didn't go in guns blazing. He marched in and did his best to respect the locals while completing an important mission. He was by no means an imperial tool (that Hudlin wants to depict him as).You know what with some asinine logic like that the US Military mind as well march on to any nation right now that doesnt have an embassy and do the fuck they want.

One more time, If a soldier from another country shows up on your country's soil and your military don't recogize the soldier expect retailation. It is basic military strategy but you are too caught up on Hudlin once again so forget it.

And Cap knew about Wakanda then because...?If you are not going to post anything in the debate dont post at all. But since you want to join I would like for you to wear a US Military outfit and walk across to Canada and see what happens.

[The Cool Thatguy]

You know what with some asinine logic like that the US Military mind as well march on to any nation right now that doesnt have an embassy and do the fuck they want.

One more time, If a soldier from another country shows up on your country's soil and your military don't recogize the soldier expect retailation. It is basic military strategy but you are too caught up on Hudlin once again so forget it.

I was simply referring to Cap's lack of announcement. Cap fully expected something tp happen and when he was attacked by the current Panther, Cap acted on a non provocational manner and was respectful of the fact that he was the intruder while completing his mission.

If you want to see Captain America acting as a imperial tool (which runs contrary to all his modern appearances) and getting beat up, that's your bias showing, not mine.

[DaeJi]

If you are not going to post anything in the debate dont post at all. But since you want to join I would like for you to wear a US Military outfit and walk across to Canada and see what happens.

And how is that the same? I know about Canada, the whole bloody world knows about Canada. When Cap showed up in Wakanda, did he know that there was a country there? No. How could he have known that he was marching on territory he wasn't supposed to be marching on? Huh? It's not there's a bunch of signs around the place declaring "this is property of Wakanda, no trespassing or you will be poorly written." But I guess being an "American Imperialist" is reason enough for a beat down.

[kidpernicious]

If you are not going to post anything in the debate dont post at all. But since you want to join I would like for you to wear a US Military outfit and walk across to Canada and see what happens.

What a silly point to make. Here is EXACTLY what would happen: he'd be asked why he's visiting Canada, he'd be asked to provide his passport, and if the attendant overseeing his entrance into Canada wants to bother, he'll be checked for contraband. Assuming he's not smuggling anything untoward into the country? They'll let him in.

WHOOP DE FRIGGIN DOO

[The Cool Thatguy]

What a silly point to make. Here is EXACTLY what would happen: he'd be asked why he's visiting Canada, he'd be asked to provide his passport, and if the attendant overseeing his entrance into Canada wants to bother, he'll be checked for contraband. Assuming he's not smuggling anything untoward into the country? They'll let him in.

WHOOP DE FRIGGIN DOO

Yeah, seriously. Hell, it's not like we attack illegal immigrants trying to sneak across the border. We detain and then send 'em back.

[kidpernicious]

Yeah, seriously. Hell, it's not like we attack illegal immigrants trying to sneak across the border. We detain and then send 'em back.

Well... I wouldn't put it past the Minutemen people to attack illegal immigrants...

[The Cool Thatguy]

Well... I wouldn't put it past the Minutemen people to attack illegal immigrants...

Perhaps, but they're not legitmate law enforcement, just some guys watching the border.

[Old No.7]

How would you guys do a BP movie?

Who would play BP?

Would you make it a Wakanda focused story or would you have it as an outside force looking in Wakanda? What I mean is would your main plot be about Wakanda and it's world, or the world and Wakanda.

Who would the villain be?

[XPac]

How would you guys do a BP movie?

Who would play BP?

Would you make it a Wakanda focused story or would you have it as an outside force looking in Wakanda? What I mean is would your main plot be about Wakanda and it's world, or the world and Wakanda.

Who would the villain be?

Honestly, my first introduction to the Black Panther would probably be in someone else's movie. Maybe another Fantastic Four movie, or a future Avengers one. Or maybe even an Xmen movie if Storm gets a bigger role than just piloting the plane.

Afterwards, if BP gets his own movie I'd probably have it revolve him becoming the Black Panther, similiar to Batman Begins. I wouldn't have him just pop in as Black Panther. It would probably be something to the effect of him training to become BP then returning home to regain control of his kindgom from someone else (sorry if I'm ripping off the Lion King too much, but that's honestly what I would envision a BP movie to look like).

[The Cool Thatguy]

Honestly, my first introduction to the Black Panther would probably be in someone else's movie. Maybe another Fantastic Four movie, or a future Avengers one. Or maybe even an Xmen movie if Storm gets a bigger role than just piloting the plane.

Afterwards, if BP gets his own movie I'd probably have it revolve him becoming the Black Panther, similiar to Batman Begins. I wouldn't have him just pop in as Black Panther. It would probably be something to the effect of him training to become BP then returning home to regain control of his kindgom from someone else (sorry if I'm ripping off the Lion King too much, but that's honestly what I would envision a BP movie to look like).

I think Panther could support his own movie without being introduced via another character's movie. When people refer to his origin, they refer to Klaw, not his throw down with the FF.

[XPac]

I think Panther could support his own movie without being introduced via another character's movie. When people refer to his origin, they refer to Klaw, not his throw down with the FF.

I don't know... I personally still think of him beating the FF, even though that's not actually his orign. But maybe that's just me.

[Old No.7]

I could see the movie going two ways...

1) Outsides travelling in the African Jungle discover a "lost" civilization that is more advance than most outside countries. These outsides than report their findings and you get a bad guy, I'm sure BP has one in his gallery that can fit this, that wants to go there and take their technology and minerals, only to be confronted by their champion, leader, BP. While that goes on you have internal struggle inside Wakanda about their existence being discovered.

2) You start w/ young T'Challa and tell his origin story, show the virtues of Wakanda and their advancements. Show their isolationist policies. Make it a more politically driven movie.

[kidpernicious]

Honestly, my first introduction to the Black Panther would probably be in someone else's movie. Maybe another Fantastic Four movie, or a future Avengers one. Or maybe even an Xmen movie if Storm gets a bigger role than just piloting the plane.
I was actually going to say something similar. If the FF movies were actually good, and deserved another sequel, I'd put him in there. The Avengers movie would also work.
As far as what I'd have a solo BP movie be about? I could easily see a decent story constructed around the Hatut Zeraze staging a military coup against the Wakandan royalty, T'Challa being forced to take up the role of Black Panther to regain control of Wakanda, that sort of thing. I'd have the Hatut Zeraze partnered with Klaw, who's in the picture of course to exploit the vibranium resource, maybe supplying weapons/tech for their coup. Though it's maybe a little on the nose, that sort of a story clearly also reflects real world issues with African conflicts, the constant turmoil and government turnover in many nations, history of foreign meddling and exploitation, etc.

[Old No.7]

I was actually going to say something similar. If the FF movies were actually good, and deserved another sequel, I'd put him in there. The Avengers movie would also work.
As far as what I'd have a solo BP movie be about? I could easily see a decent story constructed around the Hatut Zeraze staging a military coup against the Wakandan royalty, T'Challa being forced to take up the role of Black Panther to regain control of Wakanda, that sort of thing. I'd have the Hatut Zeraze partnered with Klaw, who's in the picture of course to exploit the vibranium resource, maybe supplying weapons/tech for their coup. Though it's maybe a little on the nose, that sort of a story clearly also reflects real world issues with African conflicts, the constant turmoil and government turnover in many nations, etc.

That sounds much better than what I said.

[kidpernicious]

I could see the movie going two ways...

1) Outsides travelling in the African Jungle discover a "lost" civilization that is more advance than most outside countries. These outsides than report their findings and you get a bad guy, I'm sure BP has one in his gallery that can fit this, that wants to go there and take their technology and minerals, only to be confronted by their champion, leader, BP. While that goes on you have internal struggle inside Wakanda about their existence being discovered.

Klaw would definitely work for that role.

[akumasan]

What a silly point to make. Here is EXACTLY what would happen: he'd be asked why he's visiting Canada, he'd be asked to provide his passport, and if the attendant overseeing his entrance into Canada wants to bother, he'll be checked for contraband. Assuming he's not smuggling anything untoward into the country? They'll let him in.

WHOOP DE FRIGGIN DOO
Thank you for stating obvious sir and no ****! Now captain obvious you are aware that it is a "form of retaliation" I was simply referring to Cap's lack of announcement. Cap fully expected something tp happen and when he was attacked by the current Panther, Cap acted on a non provocational manner and was respectful of the fact that he was the intruder while completing his mission.

If you want to see Captain America acting as a imperial tool (which runs contrary to all his modern appearances) and getting beat up, that's your bias showing, not mine. Well of course and who knew that a military soldier shows up to insert country get his ass beat and he shows respect wow lol. no **** he acted on a provocational manner it is called self defense. Wasnt that the point in the beginning that he was an intruder and wakanda acted upon it just like any country?

How am I showing biases to cap where im stating the obvious for any soldier that goes into another country unannoucned and dont expect retaliation? :rolleyes:



And how is that the same? I know about Canada, the whole bloody world knows about Canada. When Cap showed up in Wakanda, did he know that there was a country there? No. How could he have known that he was marching on territory he wasn't supposed to be marching on? Huh? It's not there's a bunch of signs around the place declaring "this is property of Wakanda, no trespassing or you will be poorly written." But I guess being an "American Imperialist" is reason enough for a beat down.
That is better good boy. We all know about canada. My point was that if you are apart of the military and you show up unannounced "a form of retaliation" will happen right? That includes showing your passport or anything you need to go through so nice try

[The Cool Thatguy]

Thank you for stating obvious sir and no ****! Now captain obvious you are aware that it is a "form of retaliation" Well of course and who knew that a military soldier shows up to insert country get his ass beat and he shows respect wow lol. no shit he acted on a provocational manner it is called self defense. Wasnt that the point in the beginning that he was an intruder and wakanda acted upon it just like any country?

How am I showing biases to cap where im stating the obvious for any soldier that goes into another country unannoucned and dont expect retaliation? :rolleyes:

Because that depiction isn't consistant with Captain America's characterization, nor was it what occured in the original story. Yet you clearly show a preference for Hudlins because Cap gets shown as a tool and beaten up.

[DaeJi]

That is better good boy. We all know about canada. My point was that if you are apart of the military and you show up unannounced "a form of retaliation" will happen right? That includes showing your passport or anything you need to go through so nice try

I take offense to being called "good boy." Please refer to me as DaeJi.

There's a stark difference between your poorly thought out scenario and Cap's situation: If I did go into Canada in a military uniform, I would know actually what I am doing and where I am going. Cap didn't. He was attacked for basically not knowing he was in a foreign country incredibly hostile to outsiders of any kind. They didn't warn him, didn't give him a chance to explain, didn't even tell him what he did wrong (which I would wager is nothing; ignorance is an excuse in this case). I'm fine with Cap getting attacked over that and even fine with him losing; however, it wasn't justified and the Panther was in the wrong there.

[akumasan]

Because that depiction isn't consistant with Captain America's characterization, nor was it what occured in the original story. Im just simply stated that once again any soldier that arrives in another country unannouced and doesnt expect retaliation or the country not to act upon it is foolish thats it.
Yet you clearly show a preference for Hudlins because Cap gets shown as a tool and beaten up.
You are confusing me with the other posters who actually stated it. There is nothing that is even close to me stating or even implying that I like cap getting beaten. But im not going to sit here and pretend that the man cant lose a fist fight.
I take offense to being called "good boy." Please refer to me as DaeJi.

There's a stark difference between your poorly thought out scenario and Cap's situation: If I did go into Canada in a military uniform, I would know actually what I am doing and where I am going. Cap didn't. He was attacked for basically not knowing he was in a foreign country incredibly hostile to outsiders of any kind. They didn't warn him, didn't give him a chance to explain, didn't even tell him what he did wrong (which I would wager is nothing; ignorance is an excuse in this case). I'm fine with Cap getting attacked over that and even fine with him losing; however, it wasn't justified and the Panther was in the wrong there.
That was Cap's problem and he suffered the consequences. And again who goes into uncharted territory without preparation. It is damn near suicide.

Even if you knew what you are doing "a form of retaliation" will occur right? Questions will be asked and they will be wondering why are you here. Yes they didnt bother to ask questions. They didnt bother to ask questions to anyone that showed up. It is their land and laws and they can do what the hell they want just like in this country or any other country.

Again he was attacked because they have seen someone they dont recognize invading their land. It isnt any different regardless of signs or anything you just dont walk through someone's land and not expect retaliation or that country to act upon it.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Im just simply stated that once again any soldier that arrives in another country unannouced and doesnt expect retaliation or the country not to act upon it is foolish thats it.

You are confusing me with the other posters who actually stated it. There is nothing that is even close to me stating or even implying that I like cap getting beaten. But im not going to sit here and pretend that the man cant lose a fist fight. .

It's not losing the fight I take issue with. It's the depiction of Cap as an imperial tool and straw man. Especially when the original depiction was so much better and more respectful of both characters

[Hypestyle]

...from a legal standpoint, it would be best if Marvel introduces the Panther say, in the Avengers film, then gives him his own movie.. I don't want to see him stuck with Fox by introducing him in a Fantastic Four sequel..

[The Cool Thatguy]

...from a legal standpoint, it would be best if Marvel introduces the Panther say, in the Avengers film, then gives him his own movie.. I don't want to see him stuck with Fox by introducing him in a Fantastic Four sequel..

I still don't see why T'Challa needs someone else's movie to introduce his character. I just think it's something we're used too.

T'Challa isn't say...Robin, who needs another character as a vital part of his origin. The FF weren't involved with Panther's origin, just his introduction.

[worstblogever]

Honestly, my first introduction to the Black Panther would probably be in someone else's movie. Maybe another Fantastic Four movie, or a future Avengers one. Or maybe even an Xmen movie if Storm gets a bigger role than just piloting the plane.

Afterwards, if BP gets his own movie I'd probably have it revolve him becoming the Black Panther, similiar to Batman Begins. I wouldn't have him just pop in as Black Panther. It would probably be something to the effect of him training to become BP then returning home to regain control of his kindgom from someone else (sorry if I'm ripping off the Lion King too much, but that's honestly what I would envision a BP movie to look like).


It's not like you want Timon and Poomba to come out doing a musical number, dude. :biggrin:

[akumasan]

It's not losing the fight I take issue with. It's the depiction of Cap as an imperial tool and straw man. Especially when the original depiction was so much better and more respectful of both characters
Dude he is a dayum soldier in WW2 he did what he is told it is that simple. He didnt have any clout then like he does now.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Dude he is a dayum soldier in WW2 he did what he is told it is that simple. He didnt have any clout then like he does now.

His clout has nothing to do with character respect. He accepted the mission in the original depiction too.

[kidpernicious]

I still don't see why T'Challa needs someone else's movie to introduce his character. I just think it's something we're used too.

T'Challa isn't say...Robin, who needs another character as a vital part of his origin. The FF weren't involved with Panther's origin, just his introduction.

I'd say it's an issue of how high or low Black Panther's profile is outside the comic book world, and that (again only if the FF movies had been GOOD, which they weren't, and they're Fox's property anyway so it's doubly moot) introducing him with the FF would have been a nice callback to the comics.

As far as profile though, Ant-Man's ain't exactly towering over Panther in the cultural consciousness. For sure a Black Panther solo movie would work. I actually wish he was one of the names dropped in Marvel's recent press release (especially considering that, to me, his story is significantly easier to adapt successfully to the big screen than a lot of others). Get him a solo movie AND a spot in the Avengers movie. I'd love that.

[Excelsior]

Honestly, my first introduction to the Black Panther would probably be in someone else's movie. Maybe another Fantastic Four movie, or a future Avengers one. Or maybe even an Xmen movie if Storm gets a bigger role than just piloting the plane.

Afterwards, if BP gets his own movie I'd probably have it revolve him becoming the Black Panther, similiar to Batman Begins. I wouldn't have him just pop in as Black Panther. It would probably be something to the effect of him training to become BP then returning home to regain control of his kindgom from someone else (sorry if I'm ripping off the Lion King too much, but that's honestly what I would envision a BP movie to look like).


If done right, Panther could survive in a solo film. similiar to--The Crow, Underworld, The Matrix, Daredevil, Elektra, Ghost Rider.
Especially--RE: BLADE

The Blade formula is the one I would use for Black Panther. Modest budget, with the movie having more in common with a scifi/action movie than a superhero one.

Get Antoine Fuqua(Training Day), Alex Proyas(he is already in talks to direct the Silver Surfer Film) or Stephen Norrington(Blade, nuff said) to Direct

[Excelsior]

Honestly, my first introduction to the Black Panther would probably be in someone else's movie. Maybe another Fantastic Four movie, or a future Avengers one. Or maybe even an Xmen movie if Storm gets a bigger role than just piloting the plane.

Afterwards, if BP gets his own movie I'd probably have it revolve him becoming the Black Panther, similiar to Batman Begins. I wouldn't have him just pop in as Black Panther. It would probably be something to the effect of him training to become BP then returning home to regain control of his kindgom from someone else (sorry if I'm ripping off the Lion King too much, but that's honestly what I would envision a BP movie to look like).


If done right, Panther could survive in a solo film. similiar to--The C