Black Panther Appreciation

[worstblogever]

That was the problem Priest had.

99% of the comments I've heard about Priest BP were positive at least in terms of the writing. Maybe it's just the boards I happened to frequent but I think most considered it a really well written book. But unfortunately no one bought the thing.

For all the criticism people fire at Hudlin, his book does sell better. It doesn't sell like gang busters, but it's the most sucessful BP book we've ever had.

Go figure.

How are the comparisons before/after the Storm marriage, though?

[The Cool Thatguy]

That was the problem Priest had.

99% of the comments I've heard about Priest BP were positive at least in terms of the writing. Maybe it's just the boards I happened to frequent but I think most considered it a really well written book. But unfortunately no one bought the thing.

For all the criticism people fire at Hudlin, his book does sell better. It doesn't sell like gang busters, but it's the most sucessful BP book we've ever had.

Go figure.

It only sells marginally better, but has twice the backing Priest ever did and a much more receptive MU (back when Priest was writing, most titles had their corner and stayed in it). Priest had to beg just to get use of Storm for a couple issues. Compare that to what Hudlin's got (I hold that fact against Marvel, mind.).

Honestly, with all the help he's been given on this title, Hudlin really should have blown things out of the water.

[worstblogever]

Honestly, with all the help he's been given on this title, Hudlin really should have blown things out of the water.

Rather than just blown, yes.

[Excelsior]

Yeah, these are solid artists. And they've been good since the wedding. Trying to say they're at fault for the bad sales would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak. Before you try to make a solid art team the scapegoat... maybe Marvel would listen to the fans, and hear that Hudlin is boring them.

Just a thought.

They wont hear them, as long as the book is selling. It will be hard to make that argument. I think marvel will change things when the boook drops to the sales numbers of the old series.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Okay... blaming the artist. I'll bite for a second... does anyone think the ART isn't up to snuff, and that's why sales have dropped?

I haven't heard a single complaint about proportion, detail, consistency, or any of the like about the art. Check the past several review threads, look for people with gripes about the art. You won't find one.

Because they're all with the writer, and the lackluster stories he's spinning.

At this point its the writers fault. Marvel has tried by giving the book every bit of exposure it can. They used Storm in a much hyped storyline and big issue wedding that basically did nothing but alienate the X-Men fans from ever coming near the series. They used Civil War and the FF Tie-In to try and lure a fanbase and that didn't work.

So at this point you gotta think...its gotta be the writer. Because coming outta Civil War last year a title like Cable & Deadpool gained 5,000 readers for awhile (til Marvel completely mistreated that series in some goal to get Cable a solo series again !) and likely could have done very well. And that title features Fabian Nic. who isn't a Hollywood name and yet his sales were over 25,000+ for months.

[worstblogever]

To answer my own question, I found this link:

http://www.cbgxtra.com/Default.aspx?tabid=1143

Sales on the third to last issue of Christpher Priest's run... pre-ordered sales from Diamond were only 16,100. We're around 4K to 5K away still... but of late, Marvel's been axing any title in the ballpark that BP is in right now.

I don't think it will come to cancellation, and hope it doesn't. But we're getting really close to the supposed bottom of the barrel.

[XPac]

At this point its the writers fault. Marvel has tried by giving the book every bit of exposure it can. They used Storm in a much hyped storyline and big issue wedding that basically did nothing but alienate the X-Men fans from ever coming near the series. They used Civil War and the FF Tie-In to try and lure a fanbase and that didn't work.

So at this point you gotta think...its gotta be the writer. Because coming outta Civil War last year a title like Cable & Deadpool gained 5,000 readers for awhile (til Marvel completely mistreated that series in some goal to get Cable a solo series again !) and likely could have done very well. And that title features Fabian Nic. who isn't a Hollywood name and yet his sales were over 25,000+ for months.

There are times it does almost seem like Hudlin is trying to alienate the X-fans... which is something that I never understood.

The X fans are a bit fanbase. Storm is a potential key to that. I don't want BP to turn into an X book... but it certainly wouldn't hurt sales to try and lure the X fans into the book (particularly with Storm).

[The Cool Thatguy]

There are times it does almost seem like Hudlin is trying to alienate the X-fans... which is something that I never understood.

The X fans are a bit fanbase. Storm is a potential key to that. I don't want BP to turn into an X book... but it certainly wouldn't hurt sales to try and lure the X fans into the book (particularly with Storm).

I think Hudlin is having a hard time respecting her past as an X-character while still making her an important part of Panther's cast. It's something that takes a certain degree of precision...something Hudlin doesn't excel at.

[akumasan]

With a polarizing character like panther, its difficult to keep the characters essence and draw in new readers--hence the low sales. I loved the Preist series, and it was one of the best books written that Marvel Published and yet, I had just as hard a time getting anyone to check the book out. because it was unjustly labelled a black book.

Its like my grandmother used to say- hunny, you have to do your job 4 times better to get the same recognition. Is this the same case with BP???
Unfortunately that is true in a sense.
I've come to learn that "labels" have absolutely nothing to do with it.

Just sell and market the book to a different audience. Companies have different brands that they sell to different audiences/demographics all the time. Its all in the effort of the marketing and the quality of the product.
Man it is not that simple and you know it. How do you know that Bp isnt selling the book to the niche market audience right now? If that niche market doesnt bring in the numbers just like anything else it is done. The different audience/demographics is just as much of a label as well.
I think Hudlin is having a hard time respecting her past as an X-character while still making her an important part of Panther's cast. It's something that takes a certain degree of precision...something Hudlin doesn't excel at.

I dont think anyone is able to pull it off well. The one I think who is capable is claremont and i think that he would do a decent job.

[Excelsior]

To answer my own question, I found this link:

http://www.cbgxtra.com/Default.aspx?tabid=1143

Sales on the third to last issue of Christpher Priest's run... pre-ordered sales from Diamond were only 16,100. We're around 4K to 5K away still... but of late, Marvel's been axing any title in the ballpark that BP is in right now.

I don't think it will come to cancellation, and hope it doesn't. But we're getting really close to the supposed bottom of the barrel.

Translation--Hudlins run, will have to drop to very low levels befoe he is gone. Because despite certain problems it still has more readers than past incarnations.

[The Cool Thatguy]

I dont think anyone is able to pull it off well. The one I think who is capable is claremont and i think that he would do a decent job.

This I must agree with for the most part. That said, I don't even think Claremont can do it well. He's actually the source of Storm's problem.

IMO, Storm's continued, non stop membership on the X-Men made her a stagnate character. But even though she needs a new environment/background, 99% of her character is grounded in another series and that is a handicap that's hard to overcome while making the character 'his own', so to speak.

[Yaw]

The biggest problem with this series is that it feels like it has no footing. It has no footing because it has a poor foundation. I came into this series by first reading the trade of the first arc. I have to admit that I really enjoyed it. However it did not feel like a continuation of the Black Panther from standard MArvel universe. The book felt like an independent story with its own continuity akin to several MAX books (U.S. War Machine, Eternals etc.). I think the introduction by Hudlin even further emphasizes this out-of-continuity feel in that he expresses how that particular story is how he would envision a Black Panther movie. The story for all intents and purposes is written very much in the form of a movie with its very liberal re-imagining of characters and their origins. Personally I believe that this was suppose to be a independent story that got extended into an ongoing after the preorders were reasonably high as well as the fact that Joe Quesada likes the character and wants to see BP made into a prominent character in the MU but that is another discussion.

The point however is that due to the first arc the book has been in a constant and perpetual struggle to define itself. The next issues after the first arc went directly into two events: HoM tie-in and X-Men crossover. AFterwards the books drifted along into fun but pretty irrelevant adventures in America. Unlike some here i really enjoyed alot of those early stories but the fact remains that they really had no significance to any ongoing storyline. Eventually all these stories led into the Storm marriage then Civil War->Initiative->Marvel Zombie ad nauseum. The continuity of the book is very unstable since the first arc pretty much reads as an independent story but we have to consider it as occurring in the actual MU but now we ties to Priest's series that ended with an unresolved plot.

The point of all this is that there has really been nothing that would garner consumer necessity of purchasing this book other than BP love and his occasional contribution of non-BP ongoing storylines. Serial fiction in my opinion demands that there be a continuous storyline to be successful in most cases. One-in-done stories and fill-ins are fine occasionally but at some point they have to be backed up by something more substantial.

[bluedmighty]

The biggest problem with this series is that it feels like it has no footing. It has no footing because it has a poor foundation. I came into this series by first reading the trade of the first arc. I have to admit that I really enjoyed it. However it did not feel like a continuation of the Black Panther from standard MArvel universe. The book felt like an independent story with its own continuity akin to several MAX books (U.S. War Machine, Eternals etc.). I think the introduction by Hudlin even further emphasizes this out-of-continuity feel in that he expresses how that particular story is how he would envision a Black Panther movie. The story for all intents and purposes is written very much in the form of a movie with its very liberal re-imagining of characters and their origins. Personally I believe that this was suppose to be a independent story that got extended into an ongoing after the preorders were reasonably high as well as the fact that Joe Quesada likes the character and wants to see BP made into a prominent character in the MU but that is another discussion.

The point however is that due to the first arc the book has been in a constant and perpetual struggle to define itself. The next issues after the first arc went directly into two events: HoM tie-in and X-Men crossover. AFterwards the books drifted along into fun but pretty irrelevant adventures in America. Unlike some here i really enjoyed alot of those early stories but the fact remains that they really had no significance to any ongoing storyline. Eventually all these stories led into the Storm marriage then Civil War->Initiative->Marvel Zombie ad nauseum. The continuity of the book is very unstable since the first arc pretty much reads as an independent story but we have to consider it as occurring in the actual MU but now we ties to Priest's series that ended with an unresolved plot.

The point of all this is that there has really been nothing that would garner consumer necessity of purchasing this book other than BP love and his occasional contribution of non-BP ongoing storylines. Serial fiction in my opinion demands that there be a continuous storyline to be successful in most cases. One-in-done stories and fill-ins are fine occasionally but at some point they have to be backed up by something more substantial.

I agree with YAW for the most part.

However, I mentioned somewhere online that I think the first issues were to re-tell the Wakandan's story, while making this the new official origin of the Panther.

In othr words Mr. Hudlins work is the new excepted and established Continuity when it comes to the Black Panther.

This works becuase untill nnow the BP books and villains have all been self contained. So a retcon here doesn't effect the MU at large, but serves to update and fine tune the character. While also leaving him room to still use tech and eneies introduced by Priest.

[DaeJi]

I agree with YAW for the most part.

However, I mentioned somewhere online that I think the first issues were to re-tell the Wakandan's story, while making this the new official origin of the Panther.

In othr words Mr. Hudlins work is the new excepted and established Continuity when it comes to the Black Panther.

This works becuase untill nnow the BP books and villains have all been self contained. So a retcon here doesn't effect the MU at large, but serves to update and fine tune the character. While also leaving him room to still use tech and eneies introduced by Priest.

I think the problem with what Hublin did is that the old origin was, well, better.

[XPac]

I agree with YAW for the most part.

However, I mentioned somewhere online that I think the first issues were to re-tell the Wakandan's story, while making this the new official origin of the Panther.

In othr words Mr. Hudlins work is the new excepted and established Continuity when it comes to the Black Panther.

This works becuase untill nnow the BP books and villains have all been self contained. So a retcon here doesn't effect the MU at large, but serves to update and fine tune the character. While also leaving him room to still use tech and eneies introduced by Priest.

I don't know if that was a good way for Hudlin to handle the story.

Even McDuffie flat out ignored Hudlin's Klaw retcon. Hudlin using a One More Day approach to writing BP just seemed kind of unecessary. The past BP stuff was good... it worked.

[Yaw]

I agree with YAW for the most part.

However, I mentioned somewhere online that I think the first issues were to re-tell the Wakandan's story, while making this the new official origin of the Panther.

In othr words Mr. Hudlins work is the new excepted and established Continuity when it comes to the Black Panther.

This works becuase untill nnow the BP books and villains have all been self contained. So a retcon here doesn't effect the MU at large, but serves to update and fine tune the character. While also leaving him room to still use tech and eneies introduced by Priest.



the problem is that it does affect the larger MU. The original Klaw's origin is inextricably tied to Black Panther's origin. Hudlin's version nullifies that. The only villain that really makes sense in the larger MU is Batroc and the new character he created "the Cannibal." The Rhino kind of works but he doesn't appear to be Russian which he is traditionally. The Radioactive man only worked because he was killed so we can assume that he was a different character from the regular Chinese Radioactive Man that is still alive and well. The new Klaw in a way can work since he is killed and doesn't have to interact with the MU ever again however this still represents a problem with the traditional Klaw running around that T'Challa still has history with as made apparently in last summer's FF4 "Frightful Four" arc. The new black Knight in the book makes no sense within a larger MU and the readers just have to make a big leap in our suspension of disbelief. This wouldn't be such an issue if the Ebony Blade hadn't become a permanent part of Panther's arsenal and its existence was explained a bit more.


Sorry but I just don't believe that Hudlin intended for this to be the case especially since he is a huge comic fan. I think that story was meant to exist on its own but was later changed after the entire story had been concocted. This is the reason that elements from Priest's Panther are slowly making their entrance into the current volume without explanation. These elements are giving the current run more stability and a sense of continuity without the need totally re-establish everything.

Personally I don't mind, I would just rather see these things flesh out more sooner than later. The reason this book can't keep readers from the crossover issues is due to the fact that the crossovers pretty much detail an entire story independent of any ongoing story within the title. During the Civil War we had a few (only a few) hints of an ongoing storyline with in Wakanda but everything was washed down the drain with months of interdimensional travel stories. The first post-Civil War issue setup alot of things that were pretty much forgotten until it seems this coming March. That is a year of stories that went nowhere.:mad: I'm not a comic fan who claims to want one-in-done of little to no consequence. I like complex stories drawn out over time.

[The Cool Thatguy]

I agree with YAW for the most part.

However, I mentioned somewhere online that I think the first issues were to re-tell the Wakandan's story, while making this the new official origin of the Panther.

In othr words Mr. Hudlins work is the new excepted and established Continuity when it comes to the Black Panther.

This works becuase untill nnow the BP books and villains have all been self contained. So a retcon here doesn't effect the MU at large, but serves to update and fine tune the character. While also leaving him room to still use tech and eneies introduced by Priest.

Err, what? Wakanda was hardly self contained. I can't begin to count how many times the FF, Avengers or someone else dropped by.

What's more, Klaw was a fairly poular villain. As solid sound, he's not only fought T'Challa, but DD, Qausar, Thing, Captain America, Dazzler and dozens of others.

[Excelsior]

I agree that Storm needs more face time and character exploration in the BP title. She was worshiped as a Goddess, Leader of the X-men and lets face it, shes the Wakandan version of Princess Diana--both Wonder Woman and the royal family of the UK-- and she is more popular than BP.


Its sad the character wasnt allowed to take more of a Lead, she should be written as the catalyst to broadening T'Challa's world view.

The thing I believe BP needs is a defining moment. A story arc that settles who he is/ what is his mission statement, who are his allies, and who are his villians.

I ask my fellow Posters to sum up who BLACK PANTHER is, in as few words as possible. without any mention of his royalty or his nation.

[Loren]

However, I mentioned somewhere online that I think the first issues were to re-tell the Wakandan's story, while making this the new official origin of the Panther.

In othr words Mr. Hudlins work is the new excepted and established Continuity when it comes to the Black Panther.

I think that's in doubt. Take, for instance, the Marvel.com biography of the Black Panther (http://www.marvel.com/universe/Black_Panther_(T'Challa)). It completely ignores Hudlin's origin arc, and sticks with Priest's. Ditto the Marvel.com entries for Wakanda (http://www.marvel.com/universe/Wakanda) and Klaw (http://www.marvel.com/universe/Klaw).

Granted, these are user-written entries, but they have to be approved by Marvel.

A more authoritative answer will actually hit stands next week, with the release of Marvel Atlas #2. It covers Wakanda, and so it'll establish whether Marvel currently considers Hudlin's or Priest's version (or some combination of the two) to be canon.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

There are times it does almost seem like Hudlin is trying to alienate the X-fans... which is something that I never understood.

The X fans are a bit fanbase. Storm is a potential key to that. I don't want BP to turn into an X book... but it certainly wouldn't hurt sales to try and lure the X fans into the book (particularly with Storm).

I think Hudlin is having a hard time respecting her past as an X-character while still making her an important part of Panther's cast. It's something that takes a certain degree of precision...something Hudlin doesn't excel at.

If anything some of what I read from a few fans who are Hudlin fans (not here) some have even said they think Storm should always agree with her husband. That there should be no disagreements or anything. I know that the best possible way to humanize the characters and show it as a real marriage would be to see the X-Men/FF/BP cast once and awhile mingle. Like have a barbecue or a friendly game of baseball. Having Storm teach Black Panther baseball and watching him struggle at the game against the X-Men cast in a game. It would be fun and show...hey with Wakanda technology BP and Storm can be all over...

[drwho]

I just read the previews for the next issue and to simply drop the frogs off the face of the map after being developed into foes in like an 8 issue story arc is pretty lame

[worstblogever]

If anything some of what I read from a few fans who are Hudlin fans (not here) some have even said they think Storm should always agree with her husband. That there should be no disagreements or anything. I know that the best possible way to humanize the characters and show it as a real marriage would be to see the X-Men/FF/BP cast once and awhile mingle. Like have a barbecue or a friendly game of baseball. Having Storm teach Black Panther baseball and watching him struggle at the game against the X-Men cast in a game. It would be fun and show...hey with Wakanda technology BP and Storm can be all over...

Like the idea, but I don't think Hudlin's down with making T'Challa struggle at ANYTHING. If I were to place bets on his BP vs. Joey Chestnut, Kobayashi, and Galactus at the Nathan's Hot Dog Eating contest, I'd still believe the smart money would be to bet on T'Challa in said wiener eating competiton.

Anyone else writes it, well... Galactus in a walk.

[XPac]

Like the idea, but I don't think Hudlin's down with making T'Challa struggle at ANYTHING. If I were to place bets on his BP vs. Joey Chestnut, Kobayashi, and Galactus at the Nathan's Hot Dog Eating contest, I'd still believe the smart money would be to bet on T'Challa in said wiener eating competiton.

Anyone else writes it, well... Galactus in a walk.

Hudlin did have BP not dominate Doom at least head to head. Hudlin's potrayal o Doom is a bit controversail... but at least it seemed as though Doom one on one could take BP.

But developing credible rogues is definately something every character should do. And it's something Hudlin thus far has failed in doing. But I'm (perhaps naively) hopeful that will change with Killmonger.

Just speculation... but reading the previews, BP might be a tad off his game right now. And Killmonger is an opponent that actually got the better of BP before (really, I'm still not sure why Killmonger isn't head of Wakanda as we speak). If there's any threat that Hudlin will take as a serious one for BP, I think it will be this one.

This is something Hudlin NEEDS to do. If Hudlin doesn't make Killmonger a credible threat, he's really doing the BP rogues an diservice.

[Excelsior]

Nice first look! I love the Storm nod to Messiah Complex. Hopefully, this will continue in the X-men. Where Storm's marital link to T'Challa isnt ignored.

http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=13460

http://images.comicbookresources.com/previews/marvelcomics/shipping032608/2/BLAP035_int-2.jpg

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http://images.comicbookresources.com/previews/marvelcomics/shipping032608/2/BLAP035_int-9.jpg

[Loren]

http://images.comicbookresources.com/previews/marvelcomics/shipping032608/2/BLAP035_int-2.jpg


Huh. Apparently the US invaded Wakandan territorial space AGAIN, and nobody seems to have cared enough to retaliate. Instead, they seem to think that the US hasn't done anything legally wrong yet.

A nation's sovereign territorial waters go out roughly 14 miles from a nation's coastline, and this aircraft carrier (as well as the other one in the background) appears to be moored almost within swimming distance of the shore. From a legal vantage point of outside Wakanda's territorial waters, Wakanda itself would be well past the horizon. Nations are allowed innocent passage through territorial waters, but anchoring multiple battleships offshore is most definitely not innocent passage.

And are there coastal mountains in Africa? I don't know if there are or aren't, but they do strike me as odd. It looks like the kind of coast you associate with the Pacific rim islands.

[XPac]

Huh. Apparently the US invaded Wakandan territorial space AGAIN, and nobody seems to have cared enough to retaliate. Instead, they seem to think that the US hasn't done anything legally wrong yet.

A nation's sovereign territorial waters go out roughly 14 miles from a nation's coastline, and this aircraft carrier (as well as the other one in the background) appears to be moored almost within swimming distance of the shore. From a legal vantage point of outside Wakanda's territorial waters, Wakanda itself would be well past the horizon. Nations are allowed innocent passage through territorial waters, but anchoring multiple battleships offshore is most definitely not innocent passage.

And are there coastal mountains in Africa? I don't know if there are or aren't, but they do strike me as odd. It looks like the kind of coast you associate with the Pacific rim islands.

Never been to any part of Africa myself... but that coast line does look an aweful lot like northern California. If that's Wakanda, then they really lucked out geographically.

Anyways, the fact that a battle ship is parkd seemingly in plain sight off the coast of Wakanda makes me wonder if the ship didn't get permission to park there, but they're just checking it out because they think they're up to something.

I'd assume they wouldn't need to sneak on board if the battle ship in plain sight just showed up with no explanation whatsoever. But we'll see. It's kind of silly if that's the case, unless it's SHIELD (who may have some legal right to show up wherever the hell they please these days). But if it were SHIELD, they'd be up in the sky somewhere.

[Yaw]

Huh. Apparently the US invaded Wakandan territorial space AGAIN, and nobody seems to have cared enough to retaliate. Instead, they seem to think that the US hasn't done anything legally wrong yet.

A nation's sovereign territorial waters go out roughly 14 miles from a nation's coastline, and this aircraft carrier (as well as the other one in the background) appears to be moored almost within swimming distance of the shore. From a legal vantage point of outside Wakanda's territorial waters, Wakanda itself would be well past the horizon. Nations are allowed innocent passage through territorial waters, but anchoring multiple battleships offshore is most definitely not innocent passage.

And are there coastal mountains in Africa? I don't know if there are or aren't, but they do strike me as odd. It looks like the kind of coast you associate with the Pacific rim islands.

Just to be fair you realize that this issue technically should take place no longer than a few days after issue #26 when they first showed the ship in Wakandan waters.

[Ty19]

Questions: (since I don't commit to memory many details of this current BP run)

- Has it been established (since ish #1) that Wakanda has a coast? Didn't Ross or Condi/Dondi point out in a map that Wakanda was landlocked in the middle of Africa somewhere?

- Does it seem odd that Wakanda has contingency plans for Galactus, but none for a mere battleship (illegally?) parked off of the coast, whether T'Challa is around or not? No plans to the point that only BP's sister, a member of royalty, is the only one in this advanced country with enough training to do reconnaissance? (Edit: Shouldn't, at the very least, the Dora Milaje, of all of Wakanda's resources, have some sort of training in doing this type of mission?)

- If Wakanda is the most technologically advanced civilization on earth, shouldn't Wakanda's tech be advanced enough to intercept transmissions and/or even electronically "spy" on any ship off of their coast without leaving "home"? And for that matter, shouldn't a battleship be able to detect a small approaching craft within striking distance, even in the dark?


Off on a tangent:
- Since Marvel opened the door for BP's past history to be tapped into with issue #18, how and why do BP's mother and sister fit into all of this now?

[akumasan]

The point however is that due to the first arc the book has been in a constant and perpetual struggle to define itself. The next issues after the first arc went directly into two events: HoM tie-in and X-Men crossover. AFterwards the books drifted along into fun but pretty irrelevant adventures in America. Unlike some here i really enjoyed alot of those early stories but the fact remains that they really had no significance to any ongoing storyline. Eventually all these stories led into the Storm marriage then Civil War->Initiative->Marvel Zombie ad nauseum. The continuity of the book is very unstable since the first arc pretty much reads as an independent story but we have to consider it as occurring in the actual MU but now we ties to Priest's series that ended with an unresolved plot.
That I will agree with you. It seemed a bit rushed of throwing him around all over the place. The Civil War was pretty solid the initiative not so much. Marvel Zombies well that got tired after the first marvel zombies.


I don't know if that was a good way for Hudlin to handle the story.

Even McDuffie flat out ignored Hudlin's Klaw retcon. Hudlin using a One More Day approach to writing BP just seemed kind of unecessary. The past BP stuff was good... it worked.
No matter how many times people are talking about how great priest was the shit did sell at all. Remember "The Crew" another book of his and too many clowns were caught up thinking it was the Black Avengers which wasnt fair of how it ended.


- Does it seem odd that Wakanda has contingency plans for Galactus, but none for a mere battleship (illegally?) parked off of the coast, whether T'Challa is around or not? No plans to the point that only BP's sister, a member of royalty, is the only one in this advanced country with enough training to do reconnaissance? (Edit: Shouldn't, at the very least, the Dora Milaje, of all of Wakanda's resources, have some sort of training in doing this type of mission?) Wouldnt you have a plan for something more threatening than some "mere" battleship sitting there that wont do anything anyway?

- If Wakanda is the most technologically advanced civilization on earth, shouldn't Wakanda's tech be advanced enough to intercept transmissions and/or even electronically "spy" on any ship off of their coast without leaving "home"? And for that matter, shouldn't a battleship be able to detect a small approaching craft within striking distance, even in the dark?You are coming off as bit too unrealistic. Isnt that the complaint of BP is that he always have the upper hand?

[XPac]

Wouldnt you have a plan for something more threatening than some "mere" battleship sitting there that wont do anything anyway?



I'd probably come up with a contingency plan dealing with the battleship first though, since that's the more likely threat.

I always thought the Galactus contingency plan was funny though. It apparently required the Hulk... but at least judging by BP's performane in WWH he didn't really have a contingency plan to capture the Hulk.

Maybe Wakanda does have a battleship contingency plan, but it requires them to capture Namor first or something.

[akumasan]

I'd probably come up with a contingency plan dealing with the battleship first though, since that's the more likely threat.

I always thought the Galactus contingency plan was funny though. It apparently required the Hulk... but at least judging by BP's performane in WWH he didn't really have a contingency plan to capture the Hulk.

Maybe Wakanda does have a battleship contingency plan, but it requires them to capture Namor first or something.true but lets be real no one stood a chance against a mad super powered hulk. Im still pissed that they made it seem that the hulk allies were that strong as well. Ms marvel should have taken care of the brood. I could have swore she did in the past.

[Loren]

Questions: (since I don't commit to memory many details of this current BP run)

- Has it been established (since ish #1) that Wakanda has a coast? Didn't Ross or Condi/Dondi point out in a map that Wakanda was landlocked in the middle of Africa somewhere?

They did. And this week's Marvel Atlas explicitly showed Wakanda as being very, very landlocked.

[XPac]

They did. And this week's Marvel Atlas explicitly showed Wakanda as being very, very landlocked.

Well, I guess we can chalk that up to a minor error in Hudlin's part.

Not a big deal by any means... but it would have been nice if Hudlin did his homework sometimes.

Or maybe he could have just used a Hellicarrier or something.

[The Cool Thatguy]

They did. And this week's Marvel Atlas explicitly showed Wakanda as being very, very landlocked.

Does that conform to past stories, though? I seem to recall Atlantis having (relatively) easy access to Wakanda under Priest.

[Loren]

Well, I guess we can chalk that up to a minor error in Hudlin's part.

Not a big deal by any means... but it would have been nice if Hudlin did his homework sometimes.

I'm still not sure how he could get it wrong. Wakanda's long been depicted as landlocked; it's hard to be a mysterious hidden nation if you're on the coast. The new Marvel Atlas has it landlocked. Hudlin himself showed the country to be landlocked in #1. And in last month's Annual, I'm not sure it makes sense that 18th century Wakanda could be completely unknown to foreign powers if it's situated on the same coast those foreigners were plundering.

Or maybe he could have just used a Hellicarrier or something.

I gotta admit, breaking into a Helicarrier would be cool. A lot cooler than rafting up to an aircraft carrier.

[Loren]

Does that conform to past stories, though? I seem to recall Atlantis having (relatively) easy access to Wakanda under Priest.

When? The only time during Priest's run I recall Atlantis doing anything was when Namor met BP in New York.

And I stand by my position that you can't be a mysterious, isolationist, hidden-from-the-outside-world nation if you have a coastline.

[bluedmighty]

To everybody that responded to my post: Fair.

About the ships:

I agree, Wakanda herself is landlocked.

But, Wakanda has also absorbed many of it's surrounding nieghbors and nations.

Is it possible that their territory now stretches toward the coast, to incude the waters off said cost?

[Sanctus]

Agreed. Part of what keeps Wakanda so strong is that the outside world has little accurate information of it, so maybe what we believe is Wakanda is in fact just the tip of the iceberg. Maybe its political control is much further reaching

[Ty19]

Wouldnt you have a plan for something more threatening than some "mere" battleship sitting there that wont do anything anyway?

I Believe most nations would have plans to address a situation where another nation's battleship is parked off of your ?coast?...and definitely plans established where it wouldn't be necessary for your leader's sister to be the only one trained to do reconnaissance.

You are coming off as bit too unrealistic. Isnt that the complaint of BP is that he always have the upper hand?

Isn't Hudlin the one who has BP disarming "conventional handguns" with a wave of his hand? Compared to that, I would think BP having the technology to listen to a craft that is only a short distance away from his country's ?coastline? wouldn't be too far-fetched....

[The Cool Thatguy]

When? The only time during Priest's run I recall Atlantis doing anything was when Namor met BP in New York.

And I stand by my position that you can't be a mysterious, isolationist, hidden-from-the-outside-world nation if you have a coastline.

In al fairness, given modern technology, the sliding timescale and the fact that modern readers are vastly more well informed in comparison to readers of the 60s...I don't think any nation that's not under something can truly remain hidden from the outside world.

As for the issue in question, it was during the Marvel nation tug of war, with Namor, Doom, Ghaur and Magneto. Panther's ships fired on Atlantis ships and then on Lemuira. In return, Atlantis attacked Wakanda's capital. I don't remember them having too much trouble reaching it.

[akumasan]

To everybody that responded to my post: Fair.

About the ships:

I agree, Wakanda herself is landlocked.

But, Wakanda has also absorbed many of it's surrounding nieghbors and nations.

Is it possible that their territory now stretches toward the coast, to incude the waters off said cost?
maybe but also it wasnt brought up that he did conquer lands. Unless one assumes he did.

But it doesnt matter anyway because all this thread is about Priest vs Hudlin where it is very clear the posters are for Priest. I like just as much and after reading his recent posts about the comics industry wow!

[Loren]

In al fairness, given modern technology, the sliding timescale and the fact that modern readers are vastly more well informed in comparison to readers of the 60s...I don't think any nation that's not under something can truly remain hidden from the outside world.

Oh, in the modern day, I fully agree. Once satellites are widespread enough, it's hard to hide a country.

However, I'm talking mostly about the Wakandan backstory, a history reflected as recently as last month. A country with a coastline can't be an 'urban legend' to outsiders. When Europeans were taking slaves from the coastal nations, they couldn't accidentally have *overlooked* Wakanda.

It's like Europe just accidentally overlooking Rhode Island while mapping the New World.

As for the issue in question, it was during the Marvel nation tug of war, with Namor, Doom, Ghaur and Magneto. Panther's ships fired on Atlantis ships and then on Lemuira. In return, Atlantis attacked Wakanda's capital. I don't remember them having too much trouble reaching it.

Hmm. I'll have to go back and check that.

[Sanctus]

Oh, in the modern day, I fully agree. Once satellites are widespread enough, it's hard to hide a country.

However, I'm talking mostly about the Wakandan backstory, a history reflected as recently as last month. A country with a coastline can't be an 'urban legend' to outsiders. When Europeans were taking slaves from the coastal nations, they couldn't accidentally have *overlooked* Wakanda.

It's like Europe just accidentally overlooking Rhode Island while mapping the New World.



Hmm. I'll have to go back and check that.


Europeans could have easily overlooked Rhode Island if they thought it was part of Conn or MA in which they already have agents, ports, etc. During the days of colonization, Europeans did not set foot on every inch of a continent's shore, and often got borders wrong.

[Excelsior]

http://i.newsarama.com/marvelnew/xmen/Divided/DWS01/X-MenDWS01Preview8.jpg

[Imraith Nimphais]

conjecture, I know...but, can this be the first (official) recruit for a Wakandan Super Team? (Once the whole X-men: Divided we stand thing-y is resolved and the Skrulls are sent packing and things settle down to some semblance of normalcy...of course.) wink-wink

[Alpha Male]

- Since Marvel opened the door for BP's past history to be tapped into with issue #18, how and why do BP's mother and sister fit into all of this now?


I thought it was mentioned or implied awhile back that the woman T'Challa calls "Mom" is actually his stepmother. It's not usual for kids who raised by a stepparent to call them Mom or Dad especially if their biological parent died when the kid was real young. Not sure about the sister, but hopefully we'll see Hunter, The White Wolf once again.

[Sanctus]

conjecture, I know...but, can this be the first (official) recruit for a Wakandan Super Team? (Once the whole X-men: Divided we stand thing-y is resolved and the Skrulls are sent packing and things settle down to some semblance of normalcy...of course.) wink-wink

Nezho looks badass in the graphic. It woudl be great if it is the start of a new team.

[Loren]

Marvel Atlas #2 came out last week, and it has an entry for Wakanda. And that entry clears up a lot of confusion as to what's canon regarding Wakanda in the MU.

For starters, Wakanda is landlocked, surrounded by several other fictional countries. In fact, I don't think it shared a border with a single REAL country. (This is in contrast to the opening pages of last week's BP #35, which has US ships off the coast of Wakanda.)

As for national and historical details, pretty much all of Priest's material is still there. It references the Hatut Zeraze, Queen Divine Justice, Okoye, Ramonda, Omoro (correctly noting the Wakandan New York CONSULATE, not Hudlin's erroneous NY "embassy"), Zuri, Achebe, Mama, and the Dora Milaje.

Under "History," T'Challa's origin story is the pre-Hudlin version (i.e., T'Chaka was killed in Wakanda, not in Europe, and T'Challa drove out Klaw's men). The history of Wakanda itself is also overwhelmingly pre-Hudlin. In particular, I didn't see any reference to Wakanda having always been technologically advanced.

The only specific references to Hudlin stories I saw were the mentions of Shuri as T'Challa's sister, T'Shan as Wakanda's Cannibal-possessed ambassador to the USA (although I believe he was actually the ambassador to the UN), and Niganda (it was namechecked in a list of countries and was on the map, no further specifics). Oh, and Storm was identified as "Prince" T'Challa's queen.

So there you have it. If the Marvel Atlas is the authoritative source on these matters, then Priest's Wakanda is more or less the official one, and Hudlin's recognized changes are pretty much limited to the retconning-in of Shuri.

[Yaw]

Marvel Atlas #2 came out last week, and it has an entry for Wakanda. And that entry clears up a lot of confusion as to what's canon regarding Wakanda in the MU.

For starters, Wakanda is landlocked, surrounded by several other fictional countries. In fact, I don't think it shared a border with a single REAL country. (This is in contrast to the opening pages of last week's BP #35, which has US ships off the coast of Wakanda.)

As for national and historical details, pretty much all of Priest's material is still there. It references the Hatut Zeraze, Queen Divine Justice, Okoye, Ramonda, Omoro (correctly noting the Wakandan New York CONSULATE, not Hudlin's erroneous NY "embassy"), Zuri, Achebe, Mama, and the Dora Milaje.

Under "History," T'Challa's origin story is the pre-Hudlin version (i.e., T'Chaka was killed in Wakanda, not in Europe, and T'Challa drove out Klaw's men). The history of Wakanda itself is also overwhelmingly pre-Hudlin. In particular, I didn't see any reference to Wakanda having always been technologically advanced.

The only specific references to Hudlin stories I saw were the mentions of Shuri as T'Challa's sister, T'Shan as Wakanda's Cannibal-possessed ambassador to the USA (although I believe he was actually the ambassador to the UN), and Niganda (it was namechecked in a list of countries and was on the map, no further specifics). Oh, and Storm was identified as "Prince" T'Challa's queen.

So there you have it. If the Marvel Atlas is the authoritative source on these matters, then Priest's Wakanda is more or less the official one, and Hudlin's recognized changes are pretty much limited to the retconning-in of Shuri.


FWIW, I think Shuri is a great addition. I'd prefer she get alot more face time than she has been getting. And as far as the atlas is concerned, I have to admit I was waiting on this book the most out of any book mostly for the canonical info on Africa and Wakanda. I'm not surprised with what they made canon.

[Loren]

FWIW, I think Shuri is a great addition.

Mind if I ask why? She's disappeared for long stretches, what little characterization she has isn't terribly consistent, she doesn't appear to have much of an actual relationship with her brother, and the only two times she's actually served a story purpose was by getting threatened by a BP foe (Radioactive Man, now Killmonger). So far, she seems to exist mainly to be a family member that has to get name-checked every so often.

Personally, I think she actively hurts T'Challa's backstory. Pre-Hudlin, T'Challa was the only son of a king who lost his father and inherited his father's throne at a young age. And that son grows up to be a world leader, and turns his nation into something great. It's a simple, clean, and classic origin story. Tacking on "And he had a little sister, too" is unnecessary and cluttersome, like giving Peter Parker or Bruce Wayne a little sister. (Also unnecessary: giving T'Challa an unnamed brother, and then killing him off next to the king. What does the loss of an unidentified brother add?)

Now that they're both grown, what purpose does Shuri serve? Hudlin's limited use of her suggests that even he doesn't know quite what to do with her, and he CREATED her. She doesn't seem to have a role in Wakanda other than "King's sister." There seems to be an attempt to have her train to succeed T'Challa, but not only does that contradict Hudlin's own established rules for the Panther title (which, to be fair, have probably already been retconned away), it's a false status quo. She's never going to actually replace T'Challa in his own book permanently, so the preparation is just an excuse to keep her around. Even if she only replaced him temporarily, there would have to be something interesting to tell about her personally (like how Priest explored Kasper Cole, and Brubaker is exploring Bucky). But in Shuri's case, her characterization only seems to go as deep as "King's sister."

[Sanctus]

Mind if I ask why? She's disappeared for long stretches, what little characterization she has isn't terribly consistent, she doesn't appear to have much of an actual relationship with her brother, and the only two times she's actually served a story purpose was by getting threatened by a BP foe (Radioactive Man, now Killmonger). So far, she seems to exist mainly to be a family member that has to get name-checked every so often.

Personally, I think she actively hurts T'Challa's backstory. Pre-Hudlin, T'Challa was the only son of a king who lost his father and inherited his father's throne at a young age. And that son grows up to be a world leader, and turns his nation into something great. It's a simple, clean, and classic origin story. Tacking on "And he had a little sister, too" is unnecessary and cluttersome, like giving Peter Parker or Bruce Wayne a little sister. (Also unnecessary: giving T'Challa an unnamed brother, and then killing him off next to the king. What does the loss of an unidentified brother add?)

Now that they're both grown, what purpose does Shuri serve? Hudlin's limited use of her suggests that even he doesn't know quite what to do with her, and he CREATED her. She doesn't seem to have a role in Wakanda other than "King's sister." There seems to be an attempt to have her train to succeed T'Challa, but not only does that contradict Hudlin's own established rules for the Panther title (which, to be fair, have probably already been retconned away), it's a false status quo. She's never going to actually replace T'Challa in his own book permanently, so the preparation is just an excuse to keep her around. Even if she only replaced him temporarily, there would have to be something interesting to tell about her personally (like how Priest explored Kasper Cole, and Brubaker is exploring Bucky). But in Shuri's case, her characterization only seems to go as deep as "King's sister."

Bucky was around for years before people started to explore him, so let's keep Hudlin on the book for ten years and then ask him to explore Shuri.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Bucky was around for years before people started to explore him, so let's keep Hudlin on the book for ten years and then ask him to explore Shuri.

Err, no he wasn't. We saw Bucky in action plenty o' times, in action alongside Cap. We've only seen T'Challa's sister a handful of times, hardly enough to justify weakening the tragedy of his father's death. Especially when she could have served the same purpose as a cousin.

[Sanctus]

Err, no he wasn't. We saw Bucky in action plenty o' times, in action alongside Cap. We've only seen T'Challa's sister a handful of times, hardly enough to justify weakening the tragedy of his father's death. Especially when she could have served the same purpose as a cousin.

How long was Bucky around to see plenty of times? Where the times he was seen mostly in flashbacks? If so, Hudlin could easily put some flashbacks of Shuri riding her tricycle, of Shuri buying some ice cream, of Shuri coming in first place in a swimming competition, in upcoming issues.

[The Cool Thatguy]

How long was Bucky around to see plenty of times? Where the times he was seen mostly in flashbacks? If so, Hudlin could easily put some flashbacks of Shuri riding her tricycle, of Shuri buying some ice cream, of Shuri coming in first place in a swimming competition, in upcoming issues.

Bucky was in the original Captain America comics ;)

[Loren]

How long was Bucky around to see plenty of times? Where the times he was seen mostly in flashbacks?

Bucky was Cap's regular sidekick from 1941 through 1948, and appeared in virtually every Cap adventure during that time.

[Sanctus]

Bucky was Cap's regular sidekick from 1941 through 1948, and appeared in virtually every Cap adventure during that time.

Okay. I stand corrected. However, I doubt Falcon was in the original Captain America book.

Does that mean one cannot introduce a character and not use them constantly immediately. I like the addition of Shuri. I like that she pops in and out. I don't want to know her whole story in one issue or twelve issues, especially if she is not called for. If that makes her a plot device, so be it, but then again, I cannot think of one character in any comic who isn't a plot device.

Also, the Marvel Atlas needs to catch up to Hudlin. If Wakanda is no longer landlocked, then they should depict it as such in the Atlas. at the end of the day, it is the writer (and the editors) who defines the contours of the characters, be they man, animal or land mass.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Okay. I stand corrected. However, I doubt Falcon was in the original Captain America book.

Does that mean one cannot introduce a character and not use them constantly immediately. I like the addition of Shuri. I like that she pops in and out. I don't want to know her whole story in one issue or twelve issues, especially if she is not called for. If that makes her a plot device, so be it, but then again, I cannot think of one character in any comic who isn't a plot device.


No one's against the introduction of new characters. It's how it's done and how they relate to the main character that people oppose.

Flat out, Shuri lessens T'Challa as an orphan king and makes little logical sense given how much we've seen of T'Chala before, to never have seen before. She adds nothing that other characters didn't already and detracts from the main character.

[Sanctus]

No one's against the introduction of new characters. It's how it's done and how they relate to the main character that people oppose.

Flat out, Shuri lessens T'Challa as an orphan king and makes little logical sense given how much we've seen of T'Chala before, to never have seen before. She adds nothing that other characters didn't already and detracts from the main character.

I don't agree with you, but even if i did, that would be only so far. As she develops a history (something that can only come after an introduction), it is possible that she will add to the mystique of BP and deepen his character. The best course is to wait and see.

[The Cool Thatguy]

I don't agree with you, but even if i did, that would be only so far. As she develops a history (something that can only come after an introduction), it is possible that she will add to the mystique of BP and deepen his character. The best course is to wait and see.

We're over 30 issues in and we've barely seen a damn thing.

'Wait and see' shouldn't wash after 12 issues with the same writer, and shouldn't even be a defense by 25. By issue 35, it really ought to be a corpse ;)

[Loren]

Okay. I stand corrected. However, I doubt Falcon was in the original Captain America book.

What does Falcon have to do with anything? I mentioned Bucky only as an example of how to tell a story of a character taking over the title and costume of a classic character. Falcon's never done that.

Does that mean one cannot introduce a character and not use them constantly immediately. I like the addition of Shuri.

My original question still stands, though: WHY do you like Shuri? I'm not doubting you like her, I'm honestly curious what you see in her that makes her interesting or likable.

I like that she pops in and out. I don't want to know her whole story in one issue or twelve issues, especially if she is not called for.

But as Thatguy points out, she hasn't had one or twelve issues to be developed; she's had 35. Plus an Annual. That's three years and over 800 pages of room to offer up some kind of development. Consider, by contrast, how much development Priest's new characters (Zuri, Achebe, Ross, Nakia, Okoye) got just in his first twelve issues. Hudlin's had three years, and he hasn't even given NAMES to his two Dora Milaje.

If that makes her a plot device, so be it, but then again, I cannot think of one character in any comic who isn't a plot device.

But she's not a plot device. Rather, she's almost the opposite of a plot device, because at least a plot device would serve a necessary purpose in the stories being told. Shuri's superfluous, her only purpose in 35 issues being to twice play the role of 'damsel-in-distress,' which isn't a role that needs to be filled by the king's sister. Her role as king's sister has, to date, been completely fruitless.

The best course is to wait and see.

This is a defense of Hudlin's work I've been reading since the first year, and it's the kind of thing that keeps roping me back to criticize the book. I think at this point, waiting time is long since over. 'OK, maybe everything didn't work out in the first year of the book, or in the second year, and the third year just seemed to go off the rails, but I'm sure that if we wait just a little bit longer, Hudlin will get it right and start addressing these problems in the FOURTH year.'

[Ty19]

Hudlin's had three years, and he hasn't even given NAMES to his two Dora Milaje.

LOL!!!!!!!

That's funny.

[Sanctus]

What does Falcon have to do with anything? I mentioned Bucky only as an example of how to tell a story of a character taking over the title and costume of a classic character. Falcon's never done that.



My original question still stands, though: WHY do you like Shuri? I'm not doubting you like her, I'm honestly curious what you see in her that makes her interesting or likable.

I like Shuri because she represents youthful passion and curiosity. She is the child BP could have been had circumstances not thrust a different mandate on him.

As for how fast someone needs to develop a character (or even a story line for that matter) is a matter of taste. Some like it quick. Some like it slow. However, reading over ten Marvel titles a month (and many DC and independent titles as well), and having read most of Priest's run, I cannot say that I find Hudlin to be that different from other writers (except that many times his stories are ultimately more timely like Brubakers). I for one think he has done a B+ to A- job on the title.

[Excelsior]

I like Shuri because she represents youthful passion and curiosity. She is the child BP could have been had circumstances not thrust a different mandate on him.

As for how fast someone needs to develop a character (or even a story line for that matter) is a matter of taste. Some like it quick. Some like it slow. However, reading over ten Marvel titles a month (and many DC and independent titles as well), and having read most of Priest's run, I cannot say that I find Hudlin to be that different from other writers (except that many times his stories are ultimately more timely like Brubakers). I for one think he has done a B+ to A- job on the title.

IF the Marriage is retconned, and thats a big IF. I think Black Panther should have a costumed sidekick. Shuri would be my pick.

[The Cool Thatguy]

I like Shuri because she represents youthful passion and curiosity. She is the child BP could have been had circumstances not thrust a different mandate on him.

As for how fast someone needs to develop a character (or even a story line for that matter) is a matter of taste. Some like it quick. Some like it slow. However, reading over ten Marvel titles a month (and many DC and independent titles as well), and having read most of Priest's run, I cannot say that I find Hudlin to be that different from other writers (except that many times his stories are ultimately more timely like Brubakers). I for one think he has done a B+ to A- job on the title.

Err, I think I can say with some confidence that Hudlin is vastly different from other writers. I can't think of any writer who's taken half as long to flesh out supporting characters.

Different strokes for different folks of course, but Hudlin is by no means 'business as usual'.

[gorthon616]

IF the Marriage is retconned, and thats a big IF. I think Black Panther should have a costumed sidekick. Shuri would be my pick.

This might stand against everything Black Panther is... was... and should be... but if he gets a costumed sidekick, I'd think it'd be funny for it to be a white dude. Sorta like reverse affirmative action, the Falcon to his Captain America so to speak. And for some reason I reealllly want this to be the Iron Fist.

Maybe we can get Priest back on for some Quantum and Woody-style action.

::awkward first team-up::
Danny: You know my best friend in the states is like... totally black, so I totally like... I can "ride out" with your righteousness.... brother.
T'Challa: ...
Danny: I know Kung-Fu.

::later::
T'Challa[Calling Luke on the phone]: I gotta get rid of Danny.
Luke[Over the phone]: Give it time man. He'll grow on you....
Danny[Suddenly appearing via his new mystic Kung-Fu powers]: I know Kung-Fu.
Luke[Over the phone]: Notice the choice of words lacking any sense that you'll grow to love him or even like him.
Danny[Suddenly standing on the ceiling]: Kung! Fu!
T'Challa: Yes. I noticed.

Take that Joe Q! I butchered three characters in under three minutes! Let's see you top that one....

[Sanctus]

IF the Marriage is retconned, and thats a big IF. I think Black Panther should have a costumed sidekick. Shuri would be my pick.


No need to Retcon the marriage to give him a sidekick. I think it would be cool if Storm and BP are shown as a modern couple with two different lives with similar priorities, and him with a side kick (because, let's face it, any time Storm shows up in a X-book, they should all be her side kicks). My vote would be for Shuri or Rictor. I think as a depowered mutant who might still want to do good, he would make a great addition, especially since he had attitude for days and we need some Brown-Brown teamups. BP could probably hook him up with some sick gadgets.

[Loren]

IF the Marriage is retconned, and thats a big IF. I think Black Panther should have a costumed sidekick. Shuri would be my pick.

Ugh. This betrays the Black Panther's entire central conceit. He's not a superhero; he's a king. He doesn't dress up in a costume to fight crime, his outfit is ceremonial (though that's not always noticeable these days, what with the obvious gloves and underoos). He didn't join the Avengers to fight villains, he originally did so to gauge whether they were a threat to his nation. T'Challa is friends with many superheroes, but he is technically not one himself.

Sidekicks are a superhero trope, a crime-fighting buddy. But the Black Panther doesn't fight crime. He defends the interests of his kingdom. In doing so, he has need of people like bodyguards, spies, intelligence agents, political liaisons, and so on...but not costumed sidekicks.

[Excelsior]

In the new issue of young x-men marvel has another one of those interviews with writers, and this one is with Jason Aaron the writer of wolverine, he mentions he will be writing Black Panther during the issues it crosses over with Secret Invasion starting in JULY, doesnt say if this is permamant though.

[stingerman]

In the new issue of young x-men marvel has another one of those interviews with writers, and this one is with Jason Aaron the writer of wolverine, he mentions he will be writing Black Panther during the issues it crosses over with Secret Invasion starting in JULY, doesnt say if this is permamant though.

That's good news. His Ghost Rider is friggin' wicked.

[Yaw]

Mind if I ask why? She's disappeared for long stretches, what little characterization she has isn't terribly consistent, she doesn't appear to have much of an actual relationship with her brother, and the only two times she's actually served a story purpose was by getting threatened by a BP foe (Radioactive Man, now Killmonger). So far, she seems to exist mainly to be a family member that has to get name-checked every so often.


I agree that adding her onto an already existing origin story was troublesome but the fact is that she is here. I like her because she brings a youthful curiosity and inexperience to book whenever she had been used in the past. I think Queen Divine Justice brought a youthfulness to the book before but she was more antagonistic and cynical to the book which to me downplayed and often times destroyed her youthfulness. Don't get me wrong I liked the Queen but I hated the fact everyone in the book pretty much had the same antagonistic and critical view of T'Challa without us being able to hear the story from his perspective. It was always from the perspective of a cynical, culturally arrogant American. Shuri offers that voice of admiration of T'challa but still a disappointment (or possibly fear) of being overlooked by his prowess.

I should also say that personally I think that I a new writer would take elements of Priest and Hudlin and work them together. Priest was overall a bit to critical of the king at times and Hudlin is way too accepting and praising for the most part. There needs to be a fine middle. I can definitely say that I have overlooked to a degree the glaring flaws of this current story due to the perceived possibility that Hudlin is actually making the supporting cast a bit more antagonist than has been in the past. 'i wonder how long this will last then.

[Yaw]

IF the Marriage is retconned, and thats a big IF. I think Black Panther should have a costumed sidekick. Shuri would be my pick.

no no no

just no

that is not Black Panther

[Yaw]

What does Falcon have to do with anything? I mentioned Bucky only as an example of how to tell a story of a character taking over the title and costume of a classic character. Falcon's never done that.

Didn't read the previous discussion before this but you know that Falcon did take Cap's Place before right?



But as Thatguy points out, she hasn't had one or twelve issues to be developed; she's had 35. Plus an Annual. That's three years and over 800 pages of room to offer up some kind of development. Consider, by contrast, how much development Priest's new characters (Zuri, Achebe, Ross, Nakia, Okoye) got just in his first twelve issues. Hudlin's had three years, and he hasn't even given NAMES to his two Dora Milaje.


Hudlin is nowhere near the writer Priest is so we can let that argument die. I view the first six issues as an independent miniseries and that is where my love for Shuri comes. Shuri doesn't lessen the impact of T'Challa's orphan story. In fact with a little finesse she could easily enhance it by making T'challa into more of a father figure which thereby causes conflict between them by his being her brother, king and father. Personally I think the seeds were planted but as you state, she hasn't had much development. The way I see it she should be jealous of T'Challa, admire him and being seeking his approval and wisdom. I think we got elements of that in the first arc and more of it in spurts later on but definitely not enough of it.

But she's not a plot device. Rather, she's almost the opposite of a plot device, because at least a plot device would serve a necessary purpose in the stories being told. Shuri's superfluous, her only purpose in 35 issues being to twice play the role of 'damsel-in-distress,' which isn't a role that needs to be filled by the king's sister. Her role as king's sister has, to date, been completely fruitless.


Here is where you are completely wrong. This tells me you just don't want to accept her outright because you dislike Hudlin's run on a very fundamental level. She was NOT the damsel-in-distress in the first arc. She was more of a final girl (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_girl) archetype. In fact one of my grievances of the current arc is that she and Monica Rambeau have become damsels-in-distress. In the first arc her purpose was neither superfluous nor fruitless. Her purpose was to serve in part as a comic relief and to show the strength and character of T'Challa. It was shown that his entire family was one of strength and courage and that even he the stoic and proud king was soft and comforting enough to console his distraught younger sister. Again that arc were written as if it were a movie and I thought her addition worked pretty nicely.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Hudlin is nowhere near the writer Priest is so we can let that argument die. I view the first six issues as an independent miniseries and that is where my love for Shuri comes. Shuri doesn't lessen the impact of T'Challa's orphan story. In fact with a little finesse she could easily enhance it by making T'challa into more of a father figure which thereby causes conflict between them by his being her brother, king and father. Personally I think the seeds were planted but as you state, she hasn't had much development. The way I see it she should be jealous of T'Challa, admire him and being seeking his approval and wisdom. I think we got elements of that in the first arc and more of it in spurts later on but definitely not enough of it.

You know, you should remove Priest from Loren's statement and replace it with damn near any writer and still have the same effect. Priest just works better because he wrote the last series.

We're 35 issues in and we barely have a supporting cast, virtually no subplots (and not a single new subplot since the first 6 issues), and no repeat rogues.

Hudlin's pacing for his series on everything isn't just slower than Priest's. It's slower than Peter David's, it's slower than Mark Millar, it's slower than everyone!

Now, some might enjoy that sure, but the fact remains.

[akumasan]

The title says it all. We all know this and the constant bantering about it on the thread is going nowhere.

Marvel Atlas #2 came out last week, and it has an entry for Wakanda. And that entry clears up a lot of confusion as to what's canon regarding Wakanda in the MU.

For starters, Wakanda is landlocked, surrounded by several other fictional countries. In fact, I don't think it shared a border with a single REAL country. (This is in contrast to the opening pages of last week's BP #35, which has US ships off the coast of Wakanda.)

As for national and historical details, pretty much all of Priest's material is still there. It references the Hatut Zeraze, Queen Divine Justice, Okoye, Ramonda, Omoro (correctly noting the Wakandan New York CONSULATE, not Hudlin's erroneous NY "embassy"), Zuri, Achebe, Mama, and the Dora Milaje.

Under "History," T'Challa's origin story is the pre-Hudlin version (i.e., T'Chaka was killed in Wakanda, not in Europe, and T'Challa drove out Klaw's men). The history of Wakanda itself is also overwhelmingly pre-Hudlin. In particular, I didn't see any reference to Wakanda having always been technologically advanced.

The only specific references to Hudlin stories I saw were the mentions of Shuri as T'Challa's sister, T'Shan as Wakanda's Cannibal-possessed ambassador to the USA (although I believe he was actually the ambassador to the UN), and Niganda (it was namechecked in a list of countries and was on the map, no further specifics). Oh, and Storm was identified as "Prince" T'Challa's queen.

So there you have it. If the Marvel Atlas is the authoritative source on these matters, then Priest's Wakanda is more or less the official one, and Hudlin's recognized changes are pretty much limited to the retconning-in of Shuri.
Wow I just had no idea :rolleyes:. If that is the case one mind as well say the same for "the authoritative source of New York" is either Lee or Romita Sr for spiderman. LOL

Err, I think I can say with some confidence that Hudlin is vastly different from other writers. I can't think of any writer who's taken half as long to flesh out supporting characters.

Different strokes for different folks of course, but Hudlin is by no means 'business as usual'.
well you can say the same for some of x-writers as well regarding the non development of many mutants.

Ugh. This betrays the Black Panther's entire central conceit. He's not a superhero; he's a king. He doesn't dress up in a costume to fight crime, his outfit is ceremonial (though that's not always noticeable these days, what with the obvious gloves and underoos). He didn't join the Avengers to fight villains, he originally did so to gauge whether they were a threat to his nation. T'Challa is friends with many superheroes, but he is technically not one himself.That one issue when he leaves the Avengers was great that was my first BP purchase. I still read that one.

[The Cool Thatguy]

well you can say the same for some of x-writers as well regarding the non development of many mutants.

Err, who? None the X-titles, while far from perfect, have any pacing that remotely resembles Panther's as far as I can see.

[akumasan]

Err, who? None the X-titles, while far from perfect, have any pacing that remotely resembles Panther's as far as I can see.
You dont have any proof of this and you know it. But I can help the only good x-writer is claremont and that is it. Lobdell was okay, Liefield was meh. Claremont if im not mistaken did "Proteus Saga", "Dark Phoenix Saga", and "Days of Future Past"

and im going to get em all very soon matter of fact there is a way to get all of the crossovers marvel has done if you are interested

[gorthon616]

You dont have any proof of this and you know it. But I can help the only good x-writer is claremont and that is it. Lobdell was okay, Liefield was meh. Claremont if im not mistaken did "Proteus Saga", "Dark Phoenix Saga", and "Days of Future Past"

and im going to get em all very soon matter of fact there is a way to get all of the crossovers marvel has done if you are interested

I always feel the need to defend Lobdell. He was a very good writer. While Bendis does a lot of stuff better than Lobdell, all that stuff that he's trying to do with Avengers pales in comparison to what he did during his best years with X-Men. I feel he probably stuck around longer than he wanted to and his work suffered, but there was a extremely solid run in there.

And the difference between X-Men and any other book is that X-Men is a team book with like a bajillion characters and also is the hottest comic property there is (maybe) so there is something to be said about the its ability to support a constant infusion of new characters that end up only being lightly touched.

And... comparing Hudlin to some crappy X-writer isn't really a defending him. There have been some pretty atrocious ones.

[The Cool Thatguy]

You dont have any proof of this and you know it. But I can help the only good x-writer is claremont and that is it. Lobdell was okay, Liefield was meh. Claremont if im not mistaken did "Proteus Saga", "Dark Phoenix Saga", and "Days of Future Past"

and im going to get em all very soon matter of fact there is a way to get all of the crossovers marvel has done if you are interested

I don't have any proof? I'm simply asking you to back up your accusations. Given that, I'd say the burden of proof is on you, not me.

And you are certainly in the minority when you say that Claremont is the only good X-writer. I personally think that a great many others greatly enjoyed Warren Ellis, Ed Brubaker, Grant Morrison and Joss Whedon, among others, have have worked on X-titles. Certainly, there's alot of crap from the X titles out there, but Claremont is by no means the sole source of quality.

My question remains. Point to a single title, X-Men or otherwise, with pacing like Hudlin's.

[Sanctus]

The great thing about Hudlin's run is that he recognizes that BP is a dynamic character that needs to change and grow. He lefts him from the "jungle" and makes him relevant to the MU or rather, the MU relevant to BP.

Shuri would be a great side kick (JFK chose his brother RFK to be at his side at all times because when it comes down to it a powerful leader needs someone who will question them and be truthful to them and only family can really do that) with Nezho, Rictor and maybe a few others in toe. Kings have security guards. A superhero king should have superhero bodyguards and a secret service with superpowers, especially if he sees himself as a counterweight to the US and Shield, which have superhero operatives.

[Alan2099]

Wow I just had no idea :rolleyes:. If that is the case one mind as well say the same for "the authoritative source of New York" is either Lee or Romita Sr for spiderman. LOL
Isn't it though? Didn't they define it more than anybody?

[GodzIllinois]

OK I know this is slightly off subject but this keeps popping up and I can't find info on it anywhere.

When did Falcon take over as Captain America? Specifically what issues?

[Excelsior]

Accordint to Hudlin, Jason Aarons writing of BP is just for one Arc-- :D

http://www.hudlinentertainment.com/smf/index.php?topic=3271.msg54302#msg54302

[Yaw]

OK I know this is slightly off subject but this keeps popping up and I can't find info on it anywhere.

When did Falcon take over as Captain America? Specifically what issues?

Captain America - Sentinel of Liberty 09 of 12 by Mark Waid. it was a miniseries that looked at different stories in Captain America's past.

[bluedmighty]

Marvel Atlas #2 came out last week, and it has an entry for Wakanda. And that entry clears up a lot of confusion as to what's canon regarding Wakanda in the MU.

For starters, Wakanda is landlocked, surrounded by several other fictional countries. In fact, I don't think it shared a border with a single REAL country. (This is in contrast to the opening pages of last week's BP #35, which has US ships off the coast of Wakanda.)

As for national and historical details, pretty much all of Priest's material is still there. It references the Hatut Zeraze, Queen Divine Justice, Okoye, Ramonda, Omoro (correctly noting the Wakandan New York CONSULATE, not Hudlin's erroneous NY "embassy"), Zuri, Achebe, Mama, and the Dora Milaje.

Under "History," T'Challa's origin story is the pre-Hudlin version (i.e., T'Chaka was killed in Wakanda, not in Europe, and T'Challa drove out Klaw's men). The history of Wakanda itself is also overwhelmingly pre-Hudlin. In particular, I didn't see any reference to Wakanda having always been technologically advanced.

The only specific references to Hudlin stories I saw were the mentions of Shuri as T'Challa's sister, T'Shan as Wakanda's Cannibal-possessed ambassador to the USA (although I believe he was actually the ambassador to the UN), and Niganda (it was namechecked in a list of countries and was on the map, no further specifics). Oh, and Storm was identified as "Prince" T'Challa's queen.

So there you have it. If the Marvel Atlas is the authoritative source on these matters, then Priest's Wakanda is more or less the official one, and Hudlin's recognized changes are pretty much limited to the retconning-in of Shuri.

Marvel Atlas can not be the authoritative source becuase they still have him listed as a "Prince".

[The Cool Thatguy]

Marvel Atlas can not be the authoritative source becuase they still have him listed as a "Prince".

Or they just assumed that since the Queen is still alive that T'Challa would still be considered the Prince even if he is the offical ruler.

[Sanctus]

Or they just assumed that since the Queen is still alive that T'Challa would still be considered the Prince even if he is the offical ruler.

Well that would be stupid since BP inherits through his father and therefore would be king, just like Elizabeth became Queen through her father, though her mother, the other Queen Elizabeth lived until the early 21st century and was called Queen. I think a better conclusion is that Marvel Atlas, while it would like to be authoritative, just isn't on top of things when it comes to Wakanda.

As to pacing, in less than 32 books, Hudlin showed BP interacting with Luke Cage, Rambeau and Blade in a great story line (that actually reflected the reality that America's birth defect, slavery and the ruling class that supported it, shaped how African-Americans suffered during and after Katrina), had him meet with Submariner, Doom, the Inhumans and Skrulls, re-imagined his origins in a way that is more modern and timeless concurrently, and built in time for him to take place in major Marvel events. He had made BP relevant and the pacing has been great.

[HepOne]

Or they just assumed that since the Queen is still alive that T'Challa would still be considered the Prince even if he is the offical ruler.

Does any modern monarchy work like that? Succession is always passed on, Queens that marry the king are usually queen consorts http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_Consort and have no real power. An example of this in real life was the many recent Queen mothers. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_mother

[The Cool Thatguy]

As to pacing, in less than 32 books, Hudlin showed BP interacting with Luke Cage, Rambeau and Blade in a great story line (that actually reflected the reality that America's birth defect, slavery and the ruling class that supported it, shaped how African-Americans suffered during and after Katrina), had him meet with Submariner, Doom, the Inhumans and Skrulls, re-imagined his origins in a way that is more modern and timeless concurrently, and built in time for him to take place in major Marvel events. He had made BP relevant and the pacing has been great.

Interacting with other characters is fine, but the book needs it's own supporting cast, subplots rogues and background. Hanging out with Luke Cage, Photon et all do nothing in that regard. If teamups were a measure of a hero's importance within the MU itself, Spider-Man and Wolverine would be a freakin' God! ;)

Funny that you cite Panther's meeting with Doom et all. Hudlin was clearly building up to Panther leading the anti-registration internationally. Yet, what was the pay off for that?

Panther joining the FF and running around in alternate dimensions. Yeah...

Doom and Namor are far more relevant than Panther, as we've actually seen other titles refer to their actions. Not so with T'Challa (though it ain't like Hudlin's given them alot to work with).

Does any modern monarchy work like that? Succession is always passed on, Queens that marry the king are usually queen consorts http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_Consort and have no real power. An example of this in real life was the many recent Queen mothers. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_mother

Who knows? Ain't like there's alot of African monarchy precedent ;)

[GalactaSurfer]

Who knows? Ain't like there's alot of African monarchy precedent ;)[/QUOTE]

WTF?!

Whats that suppose to mean?

What do you know about the precedents of African monarchy?

Your comments come off as snarky and offensive i suggest you check yourself.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Who knows? Ain't like there's alot of African monarchy precedent ;)

WTF?!

Whats that suppose to mean?

What do you know about the precedents of African monarchy?

Your comments come off as snarky and offensive i suggest you check yourself.[/QUOTE]

There are only four modern African monarchies and none of them remotely resemble Wakanda on a host of levels. Really, what we know is what they tell us, with regards to Panther.

[Loren]

Marvel Atlas can not be the authoritative source becuase they still have him listed as a "Prince".

It depends on what the source was. Because Marvel's original promo material for the wedding (http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=57198) incorrectly called him "Prince T'Challa."

And they don't have him "listed" as a Prince. The word is used once, buried in a paragraph midway through the entry. I'm pretty sure he was listed as a king elsewhere in the entry.

[akumasan]

I always feel the need to defend Lobdell. He was a very good writer. While Bendis does a lot of stuff better than Lobdell, all that stuff that he's trying to do with Avengers pales in comparison to what he did during his best years with X-Men. I feel he probably stuck around longer than he wanted to and his work suffered, but there was a extremely solid run in there.

And the difference between X-Men and any other book is that X-Men is a team book with like a bajillion characters and also is the hottest comic property there is (maybe) so there is something to be said about the its ability to support a constant infusion of new characters that end up only being lightly touched.

And... comparing Hudlin to some crappy X-writer isn't really a defending him. There have been some pretty atrocious ones.
Im sorry but lobdell is the same one that created cecilia reyes. Now if you have bothered to read my posts Ive stated that focusing on the banter regarding priest vs hudlin is going nowhere. This is the BP appreciation thread not "Why I dont like Hudlin". Regarding the bajillion characters it is not my fault that the clowns wanted to create another mutant and don’t build up any story at all unless it is a hairy troll named James. Or a whining boy scout named scott. This was the reason why for the crap such as house of m.
I don't have any proof? I'm simply asking you to back up your accusations. Given that, I'd say the burden of proof is on you, not me.

And you are certainly in the minority when you say that Claremont is the only good X-writer. I personally think that a great many others greatly enjoyed Warren Ellis, Ed Brubaker, Grant Morrison and Joss Whedon, among others, have have worked on X-titles. Certainly, there's alot of crap from the X titles out there, but Claremont is by no means the sole source of quality.

My question remains. Point to a single title, X-Men or otherwise, with pacing like Hudlin's.
First of all you were too caught up on your ass regarding me not showing proof but you havent done it at all with this garbage post below.

You know, you should remove Priest from Loren's statement and replace it with damn near any writer and still have the same effect. Priest just works better because he wrote the last series.so the same goes for you.


1. Brubaker is overrated. He is great in captain America. But the way how colossus and white queen is portrayed lol
2. Ellis writing in Iron Man solid, Tbolts is far better than any of the x stuff so why even bring him up. I wont even comment on X-man lol
3. Whedon just need to stick with Buffy and Angel
4. Morrison ill give him cred for new x-men but still he hasn’t done the shit Claremont done so im sorry im sticking with the numero uno x-writer.

[The Cool Thatguy]

First of all you were too caught up on your ass regarding me not showing proof but you havent done it at all with this garbage post below.

Show me another series then, that's taken over twenty issues (figured I'd cut it down to make it easy on ya) to introduce new subplots, supporting characters, etc.

I'll tell you the number then, since you can't or won't back up your statement.

NONE.

so the same goes for you.


1. Brubaker is overrated. He is great in captain America. But the way how colossus and white queen is portrayed lol
2. Ellis writing in Iron Man solid, Tbolts is far better than any of the x stuff so why even bring him up. I wont even comment on X-man lol
3. Whedon just need to stick with Buffy and Angel
4. Morrison ill give him cred for new x-men but still he hasn’t done the shit Claremont done so im sorry im sticking with the numero uno x-writer.

You completely missed the point of my statement. There isn't a single writer than I can think of, who takes half as long as Hudlin to introduce or use new subplots, villains, etc.

If you feel differently, then would you kindly cite some evidence?

[Loren]

Didn't read the previous discussion before this but you know that Falcon did take Cap's Place before right?

Nope. And it sounds like it didn't last long.

Regardless, here's the difference. Falcon is a long-standing Marvel character and hero in his own right, though traditionally a partner to Cap. In his case, him taking Cap's mantle was just another Falcon story.

With Shuri, in contrast, her possibly putting on the BP costume in the future seems to be the *only* direction her character has. Similarly, the only reason Kasper Cole existed was to wear the costume. But in Kasper's case (as in Bucky's), the purpose of putting them in the costume was to explore their character. What makes them want to wear the costume? What makes them different from their predecessor?

For Shuri-as-BP to work well, it would have to be a character study of Shuri. But it's rather limiting. Her differences from T'Challa are limited, since they shared a common childhood. They're not even that different in age. Her reasons for wearing the costume may differ slightly from T'Challa's, but being a royal heir herself, I wouldn't expect them to vary too much. And in 35 issues, we haven't been shown how she's terribly different from her brother (a la the differences between David and Jack Knight in "Starman," for instance).

Here is where you are completely wrong. This tells me you just don't want to accept her outright because you dislike Hudlin's run on a very fundamental level. She was NOT the damsel-in-distress in the first arc. She was more of a final girl (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_girl) archetype.

You're right, that is a better label. Damsel was a poor choice, but I used it mainly because the circumstances were similar: both times she's been of any significant import to the story, she's been the target of a supervillain attack. She pulls out a win in the first one, and it wouldn't surprise me if she shows some resourcefulness in the current arc too. But it's a limiting role for a supporting character.

In the first arc her purpose was neither superfluous nor fruitless. Her purpose was to serve in part as a comic relief and to show the strength and character of T'Challa. It was shown that his entire family was one of strength and courage and that even he the stoic and proud king was soft and comforting enough to console his distraught younger sister.

Hmm. I don't remember the comic relief stuff, and I'm pretty sure the consolations came in later issues (#10 or so).

Again that arc were written as if it were a movie and I thought her addition worked pretty nicely.

Eh, it's obviously got some movie-esque elements, but it also has a couple of things that would be huge flaws in a movie. Throughout the arc, there are three main threats to Wakanda being developed. 1) Klaw's supervillain team. 2) Cannibal's infiltration. and 3) US zombie forces. #1 actually pays off.

#2 builds itself up, and then ends with Cannibal...slightly closer to T'Challa. That thread ended with a cliffhanger. A cliffhanger that didn't really pan into a story (didn't you expect Cannibal would eventually do SOMETHING as T'Shan?), and remains unresolved over two years later.

Threat #3 had a resolution, but it was a dud. The US was an adversary from issue #1, and its military invasion was a huge subplot from about #4 on. And then when the massive squad of zombie soldiers finally arrived in #6...T'Challa told them to go home. And they did. Six issues of build-up, and there was no payoff. That would be a disappointment in a movie.

[akumasan]

Show me another series then, that's taken over twenty issues (figured I'd cut it down to make it easy on ya) to introduce new subplots, supporting characters, etc.
Awww you are so sweet but I dont go that route im sorry besides you cant do it. It is funny how you are pretending that you have it figured out but ill play along.
You completely missed the point of my statement. There isn't a single writer than I can think of, who takes half as long as Hudlin to introduce or use new subplots, villains, etc.

If you feel differently, then would you kindly cite some evidence?
This dumb statement?
You know, you should remove Priest from Loren's statement and replace it with damn near any writer and still have the same effect.
LOL

For Shuri-as-BP to work well, it would have to be a character study of Shuri. But it's rather limiting. Her differences from T'Challa are limited, since they shared a common childhood. They're not even that different in age. Her reasons for wearing the costume may differ slightly from T'Challa's, but being a royal heir herself, I wouldn't expect them to vary too much. And in 35 issues, we haven't been shown how she's terribly different from her brother (a la the differences between David and Jack Knight in "Starman," for instance).Nice tits? lol

[The Cool Thatguy]

Awww you are so sweet but I dont go that route im sorry besides you cant do it. It is funny how you are pretending that you have it figured out but ill play along.

So basically, you can't prove what you've said and think mocking me will draw attention away from the subject. Got it.

This dumb statement?

Lets go back to the original statement, shall we?

(Me) "Quote:
Err, I think I can say with some confidence that Hudlin is vastly different from other writers. I can't think of any writer who's taken half as long to flesh out supporting characters.

Different strokes for different folks of course, but Hudlin is by no means 'business as usual'.

(You)well you can say the same for some of x-writers as well regarding the non development of many mutants."

You've not cited a single shred of evidence to the above, yet you insist on it's truth. That makes someone look dumb, but it's not me.

[akumasan]

So basically, you can't prove what you've said and think mocking me will draw attention away from the subject. Got it.



Lets go back to the original statement, shall we?

(Me) "Quote:
Err, I think I can say with some confidence that Hudlin is vastly different from other writers. I can't think of any writer who's taken half as long to flesh out supporting characters.

Different strokes for different folks of course, but Hudlin is by no means 'business as usual'.

(You)well you can say the same for some of x-writers as well regarding the non development of many mutants."

You've not cited a single shred of evidence to the above, yet you insist on it's truth. That makes someone look dumb, but it's not me.

What makes this even funny is that you are trying to make it seem that you have it together but since you insist on me to provide the evidence. READ

Why did i bring up the x-men? Well the proof is right here

"Regarding the bajillion characters it is not my fault that the clowns wanted to create another mutant and don’t build up any story at all unless it is a hairy troll named James. Or a whining boy scout named Scott. This was the reason why for the crap such as house of m "


That was the answer but hey you didnt read it. To add to it a new mutant would be created for a particular book such as X-Men #65 for Cecilia Reyes where at times with the same story of sentinals chasing that character, have that character do a thing here or there in a few books and then you dont hear from them again. It is pretty much the same but hey. With the constant addition of a new mutant at that time it is not that much of a difference taking a long time to "flesh out new characters" This is why I stated it but you were too caught up on anti-hudlin statements it flew past you.

The Ancharist
X-Force #116
created by Peter Milligan
was used for one issue then not heard from again

Shard
Uncanny X-Men #309
Created by Scott Lobdell (this is why i said him)
showed up here or there and then poof you dont hear from her.

I can go on and on with the new addition with another mutant at that time in the 90s. What makes it interesting is alot of these new addition of barely used mutants happened to be of "color" and I can give you a list if you like.

[Charles RB]

Similarly, the only reason Kasper Cole existed was to wear the costume. But in Kasper's case (as in Bucky's), the purpose of putting them in the costume was to explore their character. What makes them want to wear the costume? What makes them different from their predecessor?

I miss Kasper Cole. Someone has to use the character at some point, right? Also Junta. Or both at once.

Eh, it's obviously got some movie-esque elements, but it also has a couple of things that would be huge flaws in a movie. Throughout the arc, there are three main threats to Wakanda being developed. 1) Klaw's supervillain team. 2) Cannibal's infiltration. and 3) US zombie forces. #1 actually pays off.

Yeah, that annoyed me. I can see Cannibal playing out in the long term (and it hasn't yet?! Damn), but the zombie/Deadlocks didn't do anything. Why were they there?

And the villain invasion doesn't quite pay off - Rhino VS Wakanda army is cool, but Black Knight? It's a guy riding a horse with a sword, the Wakandan air force needs T'Challa to personally deal with that? World War One fighter planes could handle that, Wakanda's air force should be this high-tech badass team. They lose to Black Knight? Hell no.


The Ancharist
X-Force #116
created by Peter Milligan
was used for one issue then not heard from again

The Anarchist was one of the main characters in Milligan's X-Force/X-Statix, becoming team leader later on.

To add to it a new mutant would be created for a particular book such as X-Men #65 for Cecilia Reyes where at times with the same story of sentinals chasing that character, have that character do a thing here or there in a few books and then you dont hear from them again

As for Cecilia Reyes, she was introduced in X-Men #65 and part of that title's Zero Tolerance crossover; then she immediately joined up with the X-Men in that title (w/ appearances in Uncanny, Unlimited and an Annual) until #78, when the then-team got dropped entirely; then she returned in #100, stayed with the X-Men for several issues of this and Uncanny (including being there at Colossus' death); and then last appeared in Weapon #5 which, since she was in a death camp, took her permanently off the board (THANKS Frank Tieri, you git). That's a bit more than a "few" books.

[The Cool Thatguy]

What makes this even funny is that you are trying to make it seem that you have it together but since you insist on me to provide the evidence. READ

Why did i bring up the x-men? Well the proof is right here

"Regarding the bajillion characters it is not my fault that the clowns wanted to create another mutant and don’t build up any story at all unless it is a hairy troll named James. Or a whining boy scout named Scott. This was the reason why for the crap such as house of m "


That was the answer but hey you didnt read it. To add to it a new mutant would be created for a particular book such as X-Men #65 for Cecilia Reyes where at times with the same story of sentinals chasing that character, have that character do a thing here or there in a few books and then you dont hear from them again. It is pretty much the same but hey. With the constant addition of a new mutant at that time it is not that much of a difference taking a long time to "flesh out new characters" This is why I stated it but you were too caught up on anti-hudlin statements it flew past you.

The Ancharist
X-Force #116
created by Peter Milligan
was used for one issue then not heard from again

Shard
Uncanny X-Men #309
Created by Scott Lobdell (this is why i said him)
showed up here or there and then poof you dont hear from her.

I can go on and on with the new addition with another mutant at that time in the 90s. What makes it interesting is alot of these new addition of barely used mutants happened to be of "color" and I can give you a list if you like.


Well, it's nice to know you're so well informed :rolleyes:

'Ancharist' was the longest surviving member of X-Force. He was introduced in the issue when the rest of the cast was killed and died in the last issue of the series. That's a pretty long time when you factor in how many members of that team were killed.

As for Shard, she showed up in Bishop's mini series and in a follow up one, XSE, where she recieved plenty of characterization. After that, she joined X-Factor and became a main character and from there, become a supporting cast member in Bishop's series.

But really, that's not the point. You cited secondary characters. Black Panther is the main character, he's the title character in fact. There's no excuse for him to be so lacking in subplots, supporting cast and repeat rogues for over 30 issues.

[Charles RB]

There's no excuse for him to be so lacking in subplots, supporting cast and repeat rogues for over 30 issues.

Which may be why, quoth Marvel sales analysis at The Beat (http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2008/03/31/marvel-month-to-month-sales-february-2008):

At this rate, BLACK PANTHER will drop below the 20,000 mark in two months. This can’t go on. In fact, if the drops of the last few months continue, then BLACK PANTHER will literally run out of readers within a year.

and in comments it's noted:

Joseph, Hudlin’s BP series sales better then Priest’s run whenever the book is part of a crossover,has a variant cover,or is being drawn by a “hot” artist. When it’s not employing any of these gimmicks, the book is selling around where Priest’s run was selling about (I THINK) a year or two or three before the book was canceled.

Ouch.

[Loren]

I miss Kasper Cole. Someone has to use the character at some point, right? Also Junta. Or both at once.

Junta's disappearance hasn't surprised me. He's a generally unlikable and non-heroic character with a strange and hard-to-explain power. Even in "The Crew" he was intended to serve more or less as their Dr. Smith, a la Lost in Space.

I'm more surprised that Kasper hasn't been seen or heard from. Here's a likable, relateable minority character with a fleshed-out personality, a whole established supporting cast, and a recognizable hero name. I doubt he could marquee his own book, but he's just begging for some writer to make him a team member.

Yeah, that annoyed me. I can see Cannibal playing out in the long term (and it hasn't yet?! Damn),

To fill you in, Cannibal continued to possess T'Shan until #18. During that time he didn't do anything, y'know, villainous. He just played the part of Wakanda's ambassador. (He even introduced T'Challa and Storm to the American press.) In #18 he left T'Shan's body and possessed somebody else. We still don't know who. Since #18, the only reference to Cannibal has been Brother Voodoo mentioning sometime around #25 that they ought to find him (or something to that effect).

but the zombie/Deadlocks didn't do anything. Why were they there?

For the political "satire." The US resurrected dead soldiers to fight as cyborg zombies! Isn't that so satirical?

And the villain invasion doesn't quite pay off - Rhino VS Wakanda army is cool, but Black Knight? It's a guy riding a horse with a sword, the Wakandan air force needs T'Challa to personally deal with that? World War One fighter planes could handle that, Wakanda's air force should be this high-tech badass team. They lose to Black Knight? Hell no.

Hmm. Yeah, I suppose that in order to make T'Challa look cooler, the Wakandan military ended up looking less effective than they should. Even so, the invasion did pay off, in the sense that it build up, climaxed, and had a resolution. The execution may have been wanting, but the plotline did run its course.

[Charles RB]

Cannibal continued to possess T'Shan until #18. During that time he didn't do anything, y'know, villainous. He just played the part of Wakanda's ambassador.

Was being ambassador just a really cushy gig he didn't want to give up, or is he a lazy bugger? (Or is it just a very lame plot? U-Decide!)

[Animalia]

I love Black Panther! And Storm <3

[akumasan]

Well, it's nice to know you're so well informed :rolleyes:

'Ancharist' was the longest surviving member of X-Force. He was introduced in the issue when the rest of the cast was killed and died in the last issue of the series. That's a pretty long time when you factor in how many members of that team were killed.

As for Shard, she showed up in Bishop's mini series and in a follow up one, XSE, where she recieved plenty of characterization. After that, she joined X-Factor and became a main character and from there, become a supporting cast member in Bishop's series.

But really, that's not the point. You cited secondary characters. Black Panther is the main character, he's the title character in fact. There's no excuse for him to be so lacking in subplots, supporting cast and repeat rogues for over 30 issues.

I figured that you were going to dissect the 2 random characters. Again the same goes for constantly adding new characters regardless of them being secondary characters or not. Didnt BP start as a secondary character appearing in FF and in many different books as well before getting his own? And wasnt his character built up prior to him getting his own run?

Again it isnt any different for the same story of giant robots chasing a new mutant, the xmen come in save the day, rinse repeat a new mutant appeared. At least since house of m occured we as readers dont have to worry about it anymore.

[nickmarino]

Junta's disappearance hasn't surprised me. He's a generally unlikable and non-heroic character with a strange and hard-to-explain power. Even in "The Crew" he was intended to serve more or less as their Dr. Smith, a la Lost in Space.

Junta, from what i understand, will be in Last Defenders #3.

Funny that you cite Panther's meeting with Doom et all. Hudlin was clearly building up to Panther leading the anti-registration internationally. Yet, what was the pay off for that?

Truth. it never did pay off, which is a bit sad. i was looking forward to that plot line.

[The Cool Thatguy]

I figured that you were going to dissect the 2 random characters.

So you cited two characters you knew wouldn't prove your point. That's certainly an odd debating tactic...

Again the same goes for constantly adding new characters regardless of them being secondary characters or not. Didnt BP start as a secondary character appearing in FF and in many different books as well before getting his own? And wasnt his character built up prior to him getting his own run?.

Doesn't matter where he started off. The point is, Panther has his own series where he's the star. Yet the same series largely lacks a supporting cast, repeat rogues and subplots undermining it's quality.

[akumasan]

So you cited two characters you knew wouldn't prove your point. That's certainly an odd debating tactic...
Not really they were just a number of random heroes of "color" that dont get alot of time in the comics now that I decided to post about. There is a slew of heroes of color I could of added and you would have done the same either way.

I wont even discuss the same old tired characterization that is