Are Cyclops and Iron Man good replacement leaders for the Marvel heroes?

[CMBMOOL]

With Captain America death and Professor X is on the brink of life and death, it seems that the second command are now the new leaders to the Marvel Universe.

Both men have done some questionable things throughout the recent major events, Civil War and the Messiah Complex, and it seems that despite the losses that they have face they kept on doing questionable things even after the events are over.

All in order to protect those around them. That despite their precessors flaws, their secret lives, and their ideal visions of a perfect world, the people still respect them as equals.

So here's my question:

Could these men really lead the Marvel Universe in it current state ?

And if not them then who could lead the Marvel Universe into contless victories over the various villains of the world ?

[DaeJi]

They could, though the X-Men tend to be off in their own little corner. But Ironman could lead the other heroes, though a lot of them don't really have a lot of respect for him.

[gorthon616]

With Captain America death and Professor X is on the brink of life and death, it seems that the second command are now the new leaders to the Marvel Universe.

Both men have done some questionable things throughout the recent major events, Civil War and the Messiah Complex, and it seems that despite the losses that they have face they kept on doing questionable thing even after the events are over.

All in order to protect those around them. That despite their precessors flaws, their secret lives, and their ideal visions of a perfect world, the people still respect them as equals.

So here's my question:

Could these men really lead the Marvel Universe in it current state ?

And if not them then who could lead the Marvel Universe into contless victories over the various villains of the world ?

Iron Man: Yes (read Iron Man... just ignore how he's written everywhere else).
Cyclops: Yes... I think he's shown that often enough. And I've come to a begrudging liking to him after Astonishing.

[Parch]

I don't know about how the MU would react to the leadership, but the real world is about to fall in love with Iron Man. The movie is going to be a big push for the character. He's already considered fairly important in MU, but hollywood could vault Iron Man into one of the really elite Marvel characters and big sellers, especially if the movie is a big success.

[XPac]

Cylcops has been leading the X corner of the MU for a long long time. So him stepping up is hardly anything new.

In regards to Iron Man... not as well as one might think on paper. I think he's an intelligent man and a good manager, but he's not a good natural leader. He can do it alright... but he lacks the human element that is needed to be a great leader. He'll flat out lie and manipulate people to do what he wants... and that sort of management comes with a price.

[CMBMOOL]

Okay guys, let me rephrase this:

Despite the fact that Cyclops is reforming a team of moral killers to go after the enemies of mutants and Iron Man let the best known pyschos form a superhuan team to protect the innocents.

Do you all think that you can still trust them and call them the new leaders of teh Marvel Universe ?

[XPac]

Okay guys, let me rephrase this:

Despite the fact that Cyclops is reforming a team of moral killers to go after the enemies of mutants and Iron Man let the best known pyschos form a superhuan team to protect the innocents.

Do you all think that you can still trust them and call them the new leaders of teh Marvel Universe ?

If trust is the issue, I'll say both can't be completely trusted.

I wouldn't trust Cyclops because he's dating Emma Frost.

And Iron Man, despite good intentions, is a dishonest jerk.

They both mean well. And right now I'm not sure exactly who could step up and do a better job. But they both have issues which would prevent me from completely trusting either.

[gorthon616]

Okay guys, let me rephrase this:

Despite the fact that Cyclops is reforming a team of moral killers to go after the enemies of mutants and Iron Man let the best known pyschos form a superhuman team to protect the innocents.

Do you all think that you can still trust them and call them the new leaders of the Marvel Universe ?

Cyclops: ::shrug:: I don't care. But I'm like that I guess.

Iron Man: It's been a long time since I've read Civil War (and I didn't like it, so I try to avoid that), but like I said, if you're reading Iron Man, you'd say yes.

Otherwise, probably not. As near as I can tell/remember, Iron Man wasn't directly in control of the Thunderbolts thing (as he isn't referenced at all in the book nor is S.H.I.E.L.D.), so I guess I personally don't attribute that to him (right or wrong). And does anybody even care about unregistered heroes anymore outside of them? I don't have problems with the 50 states initiative as a general idea though execution is always an issue (which being that Pym is in that book, should be more Pym's problem, but whatever). There was that whole prison thing, but does that even exist anymore? I don't know and no one seems to care.

There was a lot of random Civil War stuff that happened, I didn't like it and thought it was poorly done, so I guess I tend to just ignore it when I can.

But like I said, read Iron Man.

[XPac]

Cyclops: ::shrug:: I don't care. But I'm like that I guess.

Iron Man: It's been a long time since I've read Civil War (and I didn't like it, so I try to avoid that), but like I said, if you're reading Iron Man, you'd say yes.

Otherwise, probably not. As near as I can tell/remember, Iron Man wasn't directly in control of the Thunderbolts thing (as he isn't referenced at all in the book nor is S.H.I.E.L.D.), so I guess I personally don't attribute that to him (right or wrong). And does anybody even care about unregistered heroes anymore outside of them? I don't have problems with the 50 states initiative as a general idea though execution is always an issue (which being that Pym is in that book, should be more Pym's problem, but whatever). There was that whole prison thing, but does that even exist anymore? I don't know and no one seems to care.

There was a lot of random Civil War stuff that happened, I didn't like it and thought it was poorly done, so I guess I tend to just ignore it when I can.

But like I said, read Iron Man.

I won't bother getting into listing everything I feel Iron Man has done wrong (unless of course you want to get into that conversation). But I will say this... I do read Iron Man, and to me all that book does is show that he feels guilty for some of the things he did. It doesn't really change, erase, or even justify a lot of the things we have seen him do in CW and Frontline.

Reading Iron Man only makes you potentially more sympathetic to the character... doesn't really equate to trusting him more.

[Kid Kamikaze10]

Cyclops - Not right now. He was, IMO, wrong in Messiah Complex compared to Xavier. All he did was win the fight, that's it. But, he's been the leader for quite some time, so it's not new.

But, there's something about the whole "X-Men now kill" stuff that seems to be taking place post-MC that rubs me the wrong way.

Honestly, if she were alive, I'd much rather have Jean be the leader of the X-Men.

As for Iron Man.... Heck no. Civil War soured me way too much for me to want that to happen.

[Serik]

As long as Iron Dick (maybe a compliment?) continues, the answer is no. At least Cap had a genuine moral compass; Iron Man is a selfish prick who's not afraid to play dirty to get what he wants. If I were a Marvel hero, I certainly would question Iron Man's leadership: is that really what's best for heroes/society/earth, or is Tony just trying to advance his futurist agenda? (On a side note, the whole "Tony Stark as a futurist who tries really hard to change society and hurts people along the way but kinda has good intentions" angle is getting old.)

[Hippy-san]

I think Tony's has an interesting plan and he could pull it off. He's got the public on his side (for the most part) and he's got plenty of resources that he hasn't gone nuts with. I think it would makes sense for him to step down should Fury ever come back and he's better suited for solo work, but he can lead a team, nonetheless.

Cyke is proving himself now and I give him more of a chance now than i ever would've.

Question is, if you guys think these people can't do it, then who can?

[Sanctus]

Black Widow would make a better replacement as leader of teh free world than Stark, and as a rallying point aroudn whom the heroes of teh world could unite.

Cyclops is the obvious mutant leader since he has been groomed for that role for a long time and Storm is currently world leader. The Beast would also be a potential candidate, as would have been Bishop had be not turned out to be, according to the current writers, a rabid baby killer of few morals.

[XPac]

I think Tony's has an interesting plan and he could pull it off. He's got the public on his side (for the most part) and he's got plenty of resources that he hasn't gone nuts with. I think it would makes sense for him to step down should Fury ever come back and he's better suited for solo work, but he can lead a team, nonetheless.

Cyke is proving himself now and I give him more of a chance now than i ever would've.

Question is, if you guys think these people can't do it, then who can?

As you mentioned, Fury should be the person running SHIELD. That's an obvious one.

As for running the entire MU hero community... no one perhaps has ever done that (though Cap always took a default leadership position on the occasions they all had to work together). The think a group like the Illuminati was a good idea on paper... though making the decision to hide it really hinders trust in them.

As for the X people... though Cyclops is the logical choice, Storm could lead them at the drop on a hat. She's proven just as capable as him. THe problem being her new life requires her to be appart from the X teams. There are other potential candidates... though no one have ever stepped up and decisively proven they could do the job.

Course, in my opinion it's not even an issue... Xavier will likely return sooner than later. Just like Fury likely will.

[RodeoWearden]

I want Fury back. But do you think Tony would really relinquish control of SHIELD?

BtW, where the hell IS Fury? I know Jessica was in contact with him for a while, but she's the only one i know of. Anybody know, or is it all just speculation at this point?

[Kid Kamikaze10]

Come to think of it, I'm more comfortable with Tony's leadership more so than Cyclops.

Even after all the douchebag stuff he's done.

Cyclops can lead fights, and win fights, but that's not what mutant kind needs. If they needed that, Magneto would have been their savior. They need a visionary; a voice of reason and logic for mutants, and a ambassador for mutantkind for the humans. Quite frankly, Scott ain't it.

In fact, his main character flaw goes completely against what mutantkind needs. He's cold; lacks compassion. He may understand Xavier's dream more than most, but sure won't be able to implement it like he can (and X-Force is not the right direction to take).


If only Jean was alive.

[Expletive Deleted]

BtW, where the hell IS Fury?Underground. He'll be involved with Secret Invasion, in some capacity.

[gorthon616]

I won't bother getting into listing everything I feel Iron Man has done wrong (unless of course you want to get into that conversation). But I will say this... I do read Iron Man, and to me all that book does is show that he feels guilty for some of the things he did. It doesn't really change, erase, or even justify a lot of the things we have seen him do in CW and Frontline.

Reading Iron Man only makes you potentially more sympathetic to the character... doesn't really equate to trusting him more.

I never read Frontline but realize I don't necessitate everything that was done in CW to Iron Man.

Honestly, I wouldn't mind a list. It'll save me the hassle of looking through CW stuff to try to remember it.

Off the top of my head.
- He pushed the registration act. Which imo makes a lot of sense at a conceptual level on only fails to a degree in execution because they WANTED it to fail in execution.
- He set up that sting which while deceptive, I can't see that as being all that bad of a thing to do. He lied to try to bring in a bunch of renegaes either by talking with them or by force. Which is reasonable imo.
- Thor clone. I don't think it was really necessary, but I don't think it's a core issue in the way it would be in real life, just because of what counts as "normal" in the marvel universe. Just like AI, if someone built an A.I. in real life it'd be an issue but in the MU it's more common. Which doesn't mean it's not an issue but it's fairly common place issue. So I don't give any particular ire to Iron Man for this.
- Thor clone kills Bill Foster. It's a fight and people die in super-powered fights? Blaming IM for this is like blaming Standford (or Statford? I don't recall) on Captain America. Cap isn't saying "Heroes run free muck up and get schools blown up!" and Tony isn't saying "Kill all those who oppose me!"
- That prison thing. I don't even recall much about it outside of "it's a prison in the Negative Zone" and that annoyed me a lot because I was reading Anihilation and I would have liked some resonnance of that story to what was going on there. And it's a prison. What prison (even people who are pro-lock'em-all-up) is pristine and nice in their eyes? People always think corrupt, guards sadists who like to beat prisoners, prisoners in the poorest of conditions, mistreated, etc. etc. They play the hot-topic Guantanamo card, which is more "we don't know so obviously horrible things are happening" then "horrible things are happening." Which is something I think (while abhorrent) was less prevalent than people played it out to be (though i've been out of the news for awhile, so I might be putting my foot in my mouth there). In any case, I don't mind "tough" prison. Which is one (though not the one they were leading readers to think) of the ways in which that prison could be seen. I know some people who work in prisons and I'm fairly sympathetic to the guards and there need for strictness/harshness and less so on the inmates.
- The Thunderbolts thing. I chalk that up to non-Iron Man entities. Which you might consider to be a blantant ignoring on my part, but he plays no part in the book and I don't recall him ever specifically pushing for Villain recruitment. Though I do recall something about making a deal with the Kingpin. I have no idea what it was though.
- Cap's death. I don't blame him for that. I don't see how you could, Cap turned himself in, and was targetted by the Red Skull. And yes "Iron Man could have prevented it" but if we play that card all the time, then there would be no crimes at all right? So I don't think that's a fair card to play. Sometimes the bad guys get their licks in too.
- The Initative/Draft/Fifty-States program. While I'm not a draft fan, I don't think it's beyond the states power to do a draft.

I don't recall anything else off the top of my head. I mean he got into a fight with Spider-Man I think, but hey people get into fights. And yes "OMG they almost killed Spider-Man" happened, but honestly those guys were D-listers and it's poor writing that they did so well so easily. And honestly, if you wanted non-lethal soft-toss guys to grab Spidey who wouldn't pick... who were they... Trapster and Jack-O-Lantern? It's like they sent out Nerf-Man.

I'm not really looking at him feeling guilty about CW either. I guess I look at the current run on Iron Man as being "Iron Man" whereas it seems like most people can only see the Civil War books as being "Iron Man" and everything about his other appearances need to redeem or fulfill that version of him. But to me Iron Man is more his first (and really only forum) to say and show "this is who I am and this is what I'm about." And I see a character that is one of the few that even attempts to see the depths of the world's problems and that has the capacity and the desire to combat them.

[gorthon616]

Come to think of it, I'm more comfortable with Tony's leadership more so than Cyclops.

Even after all the douchebag stuff he's done.

Cyclops can lead fights, and win fights, but that's not what mutant kind needs. If they needed that, Magneto would have been their savior. They need a visionary; a voice of reason and logic for mutants, and a ambassador for mutantkind for the humans. Quite frankly, Scott ain't it.

In fact, his main character flaw goes completely against what mutantkind needs. He's cold; lacks compassion. He may understand Xavier's dream more than most, but sure won't be able to implement it like he can (and X-Force is not the right direction to take).


If only Jean was alive.

Cyclops is more a solider than a visionary, that's true. But I don't think there needs to be a visionary. What's the vision? Hey guys, let's not kill each other?

The difference between Cyclops now and Xavier/Magneto is that Xavier/Magneto were idealist. Xavier in the obvious way, don't kill, let's get along, etc. etc. Magneto was the fractured idealist who wanted Xavier's dream but couldn't believe in it. Cyclops (currently) is more of the pragmatist. He'll get the job done. He was doing it before under Xavier's vision and now he's doing it on his own.

Frankly, I've been sick of Xavier for a long time. He was boring, drab, and ultimately very simple minded. He appeals to the naive person inside of all of us who just wants to get along in peace, I mean what was he other than damage control and speak pretty words? Which I don't mind as a character (and somewhat do not like the current "dark" Xavier because of this), but as the focal point for the X-Men books it was utterly limiting and stifling.

I'm glad that he's pushing an agenda. And while he's not the ambassador type, he is the leader type and would know how to match tasks with people (i.e. he'd pick storm or beast to be the ambassadors). I'm fine with X-Force as I guess I'm a sort of Punisher kinda guy, though I don't get Young X-Men's premise, but I'll reserve judgement on that for the moment.

[XPac]

I never read Frontline but realize I don't necessitate everything that was done in CW to Iron Man.

Honestly, I wouldn't mind a list. It'll save me the hassle of looking through CW stuff to try to remember it.

Off the top of my head.
- He pushed the registration act. Which imo makes a lot of sense at a conceptual level on only fails to a degree in execution because they WANTED it to fail in execution.
- He set up that sting which while deceptive, I can't see that as being all that bad of a thing to do. He lied to try to bring in a bunch of renegaes either by talking with them or by force. Which is reasonable imo.
- Thor clone. I don't think it was really necessary, but I don't think it's a core issue in the way it would be in real life, just because of what counts as "normal" in the marvel universe. Just like AI, if someone built an A.I. in real life it'd be an issue but in the MU it's more common. Which doesn't mean it's not an issue but it's fairly common place issue. So I don't give any particular ire to Iron Man for this.
- Thor clone kills Bill Foster. It's a fight and people die in super-powered fights? Blaming IM for this is like blaming Standford (or Statford? I don't recall) on Captain America. Cap isn't saying "Heroes run free muck up and get schools blown up!" and Tony isn't saying "Kill all those who oppose me!"
- That prison thing. I don't even recall much about it outside of "it's a prison in the Negative Zone" and that annoyed me a lot because I was reading Anihilation and I would have liked some resonnance of that story to what was going on there. And it's a prison. What prison (even people who are pro-lock'em-all-up) is pristine and nice in their eyes? People always think corrupt, guards sadists who like to beat prisoners, prisoners in the poorest of conditions, mistreated, etc. etc. They play the hot-topic Guantanamo card, which is more "we don't know so obviously horrible things are happening" then "horrible things are happening." Which is something I think (while abhorrent) was less prevalent than people played it out to be (though i've been out of the news for awhile, so I might be putting my foot in my mouth there). In any case, I don't mind "tough" prison. Which is one (though not the one they were leading readers to think) of the ways in which that prison could be seen. I know some people who work in prisons and I'm fairly sympathetic to the guards and there need for strictness/harshness and less so on the inmates.
- The Thunderbolts thing. I chalk that up to non-Iron Man entities. Which you might consider to be a blantant ignoring on my part, but he plays no part in the book and I don't recall him ever specifically pushing for Villain recruitment. Though I do recall something about making a deal with the Kingpin. I have no idea what it was though.
- Cap's death. I don't blame him for that. I don't see how you could, Cap turned himself in, and was targetted by the Red Skull. And yes "Iron Man could have prevented it" but if we play that card all the time, then there would be no crimes at all right? So I don't think that's a fair card to play. Sometimes the bad guys get their licks in too.
- The Initative/Draft/Fifty-States program. While I'm not a draft fan, I don't think it's beyond the states power to do a draft.

I don't recall anything else off the top of my head. I mean he got into a fight with Spider-Man I think, but hey people get into fights. And yes "OMG they almost killed Spider-Man" happened, but honestly those guys were D-listers and it's poor writing that they did so well so easily. And honestly, if you wanted non-lethal soft-toss guys to grab Spidey who wouldn't pick... who were they... Trapster and Jack-O-Lantern? It's like they sent out Nerf-Man.

I'm not really looking at him feeling guilty about CW either. I guess I look at the current run on Iron Man as being "Iron Man" whereas it seems like most people can only see the Civil War books as being "Iron Man" and everything about his other appearances need to redeem or fulfill that version of him. But to me Iron Man is more his first (and really only forum) to say and show "this is who I am and this is what I'm about." And I see a character that is one of the few that even attempts to see the depths of the world's problems and that has the capacity and the desire to combat them.

I won't get into everything he's done wrong, cause that's a real long conversation. I'll just cite the things that bothered me personally the most.

First there's the Illuminati exiling Hulk. He along with his buddies kidnaps someone unlawfully and launches them into space. And obviously that comes back to haunt a lot of people in WWH.

In Amazing Spider-Man he hires Titanium Man to stage an attack on Congress to show everyone that heroes are needed. His intent was good... but the fact that he goes on and on about gaining the public trust and how the law is the law comes off pretty hollow when THIS is how he starts things off. He's using deception to gain public trust... he's preaching about laws while staging attacks in the middle of Congress. Not the worst thing hes done, but that hypocrisy was shown at the very start, which kind of colors how I looked at him since.

The big problems I have with his action in Frontline revolve around him taking the Green Goblin out of prison, and controlling him to attack the Atlanteans sleepers and the Atlantean Ambassador. He basically stages a terrorost bombing on US soil by having Goblin bomb the sleepers... and I use the term terrosit bombing because Frontline reveals that he did it to scare the public and hero community into thinking there might be a war with Atlantis and be scared into supporting the SHRA. He basically has these Atlanteans murdered (though in all fairness these illegal sleepers might have been dangerous themselves) to further his political agenda, getting Wonderman blown up in the process since SHIELD blackmails him to watch them.

Again, he talks about trying to gain trust with the public when hes using bombings on US soil to try and scare them into going his way. That sort of thinking is just hard to respect. The attack on the Atlantean Ambassaror at least isn't lethal... he doesn't kill anyone there. Though controlling someone to attack another person (this time an innocent person unlike the sleepers) to sway public opinion still leaves a bad taste in my mouth nonetheless.

And in regards to the TBolts... if you read the CW TBolt tie in and if you see the last page of CW 4, they make it clear that Stark put together the villainout TBolt team. He does eventually lose control of them to the CSA after CW... but he's the one that created them. And he specifically takes Osborne out of jail to commit the attacks on the Atlanteans stated above.

Can we say his intentions were good? Sure. And to a degree they are achieving a lot of the desired results, though many are likewise blowing up in his face. But he's flagrantly breaking laws all the while preaching that the law is the law and putting his friends in jail purely because they refuse to sign a piece of paper. He's lying to the public to FOOL them into trusting them more, when in reality he's just justifying the publics mistrust of heroes.

[CMBMOOL]

I won't get into everything he's done wrong, cause that's a real long conversation. I'll just cite the things that bothered me personally the most.

First there's the Illuminati exiling Hulk. He along with his buddies kidnaps someone unlawfully and launches them into space. And obviously that comes back to haunt a lot of people in WWH.

In Amazing Spider-Man he hires Titanium Man to stage an attack on Congress to show everyone that heroes are needed. His intent was good... but the fact that he goes on and on about gaining the public trust and how the law is the law comes off pretty hollow when THIS is how he starts things off. He's using deception to gain public trust... he's preaching about laws while staging attacks in the middle of Congress. Not the worst thing hes done, but that hypocrisy was shown at the very start, which kind of colors how I looked at him since.

The big problems I have with his action in Frontline revolve around him taking the Green Goblin out of prison, and controlling him to attack the Atlanteans sleepers and the Atlantean Ambassador. He basically stages a terrorost bombing on US soil by having Goblin bomb the sleepers... and I use the term terrosit bombing because Frontline reveals that he did it to scare the public and hero community into thinking there might be a war with Atlantis and be scared into supporting the SHRA. He basically has these Atlanteans murdered (though in all fairness these illegal sleepers might have been dangerous themselves) to further his political agenda, getting Wonderman blown up in the process since SHIELD blackmails him to watch them.

Again, he talks about trying to gain trust with the public when hes using bombings on US soil to try and scare them into going his way. That sort of thinking is just hard to respect. The attack on the Atlantean Ambassaror at least isn't lethal... he doesn't kill anyone there. Though controlling someone to attack another person (this time an innocent person unlike the sleepers) to sway public opinion still leaves a bad taste in my mouth nonetheless.

And in regards to the TBolts... if you read the CW TBolt tie in and if you see the last page of CW 4, they make it clear that Stark put together the villainout TBolt team. He does eventually lose control of them to the CSA after CW... but he's the one that created them. And he specifically takes Osborne out of jail to commit the attacks on the Atlanteans stated above.

Can we say his intentions were good? Sure. And to a degree they are achieving a lot of the desired results, though many are likewise blowing up in his face. But he's flagrantly breaking laws all the while preaching that the law is the law and putting his friends in jail purely because they refuse to sign a piece of paper. He's lying to the public to FOOL them into trusting them more, when in reality he's just justifying the publics mistrust of heroes.

May I also make a mention to the Satellites that he had in the first Mighty Avengers arc.

[Shellhead]

I want Fury back. But do you think Tony would really relinquish control of SHIELD?


It might surprise you to find that Tony Stark was involved with SHIELD before Nick Fury. In fact, Tony was there for Nick's action-packed "job interview."

[Brian M.]

Cyclops = Yes.

[Kid Kamikaze10]

Cyclops is more a solider than a visionary, that's true. But I don't think there needs to be a visionary. What's the vision? Hey guys, let's not kill each other?

The difference between Cyclops now and Xavier/Magneto is that Xavier/Magneto were idealist. Xavier in the obvious way, don't kill, let's get along, etc. etc. Magneto was the fractured idealist who wanted Xavier's dream but couldn't believe in it. Cyclops (currently) is more of the pragmatist. He'll get the job done. He was doing it before under Xavier's vision and now he's doing it on his own.

Frankly, I've been sick of Xavier for a long time. He was boring, drab, and ultimately very simple minded. He appeals to the naive person inside of all of us who just wants to get along in peace, I mean what was he other than damage control and speak pretty words? Which I don't mind as a character (and somewhat do not like the current "dark" Xavier because of this), but as the focal point for the X-Men books it was utterly limiting and stifling.

I'm glad that he's pushing an agenda. And while he's not the ambassador type, he is the leader type and would know how to match tasks with people (i.e. he'd pick storm or beast to be the ambassadors). I'm fine with X-Force as I guess I'm a sort of Punisher kinda guy, though I don't get Young X-Men's premise, but I'll reserve judgement on that for the moment.

But then again, we saw what Cyclops did in Messiah Complex: he won the fight, but lost a whole lot more. That's the type of stuff the mutant race doesn't need. Now, I didn't even like Xavier, but for the most part (and thanks to Cable), he was right in MC.

The problem with Cyclops being leader is something you have already said: he's too much of a soldier. Mutants need a Martin Luther King, not a Huey Newton.

[Brian M.]

But then again, we saw what Cyclops did in Messiah Complex: he won the fight, but lost a whole lot more. That's the type of stuff the mutant race doesn't need. Now, I didn't even like Xavier, but for the most part (and thanks to Cable), he was right in MC.

The problem with Cyclops being leader is something you have already said: he's too much of a soldier. Mutants need a Martin Luther King, not a Huey Newton.

The only thing Xavier ever put forth in MC was to give Cable the baby. That was it. That was his only contribution...that and getting shot in the head. Otherwise he never once put forth an idea, he complained alot, that could help the X-Men recover the kid.

[Kid Kamikaze10]

The only thing Xavier ever put forth in MC was to give Cable the baby. That was it. That was his only contribution...that and getting shot in the head. Otherwise he never once put forth an idea, he complained alot, that could help the X-Men recover the kid.

To cover my a$$ (because you are partially right), Xavier was right to help Cable (cause Cyclops sure wouldn't at that point), and he was right to complain (because Cyclops screwed over quite a bit of people).

Back on topic, this doesn't change the fact that one, for all the stuff that happened, all Cyclops did was win a large fight. That's not enough, and for the sacrifices made, it wasn't worth it.

They need someone who can do more than win battles, and Cyclops isn't it.

[Sanctus]

Soldiers are needed when you are at war. Mutants are at war with the world, themselves and with nature (though now they are less at war with nature). Cyclops can see them through that war. After things calm down, Kitty Pride (if she looses her childishness) or Anole (once he gets some experience) or even Wolfcub can be the visoionary leader.

[ivesaidway2much]

Soldiers are needed when you are at war. Mutants are at war with the world, themselves and with nature (though now they are less at war with nature). Cyclops can see them through that war. After things calm down, Kitty Pride (if she looses her childishness) or Anole (once he gets some experience) or even Wolfcub can be the visoionary leader.If the X-men need a soldier, Cable would make a much better leader for the mutant race. In MC, only Xavier and he were able to see past their own selfish interests and instead consider what was best for the kid. Plus Cable he made a good deal of progress leading both Providence and Rumekistan in Cable & Deadpool.

[Kid Kamikaze10]

If the X-men need a soldier, Cable would make a much better leader for the mutant race. In MC, only Xavier and he were able to see past their own selfish interests and instead consider what was best for the kid. Plus Cable he made a good deal of progress leading both Providence and Rumekistan in Cable & Deadpool.

Okay, that was more on what I meant when I said "Xavier was right".

It was more Cable was right. As he should be, coming from the future and all.

[Sanctus]

If the X-men need a soldier, Cable would make a much better leader for the mutant race. In MC, only Xavier and he were able to see past their own selfish interests and instead consider what was best for the kid. Plus Cable he made a good deal of progress leading both Providence and Rumekistan in Cable & Deadpool.

I thought Providence and Rumekistan were destroyed. cable did not see past his selfish interest. he wants his to save his future or some nonsense like that. But you are right, I should have been more specific. cable is a great soldier, but when fighting a war, you need a general to direct and Scott is a general because he is a brilliant strategist. The only X-Men that probably comes close in terms of that skill these days are Storm and Prodigy (since he has all of Scott's skill and then some).

[bulbasteve]

I thought Providence and Rumekistan were destroyed. cable did not see past his selfish interest. he wants his to save his future or some nonsense like that. But you are right, I should have been more specific. cable is a great soldier, but when fighting a war, you need a general to direct and Scott is a general because he is a brilliant strategist. The only X-Men that probably comes close in terms of that skill these days are Storm and Prodigy (since he has all of Scott's skill and then some).


Rumekistan still exists as of the last issue of C&D, they sent them on their savage land mission! Fun times.

[Red Lotus]

To cover my a$$ (because you are partially right), Xavier was right to help Cable (cause Cyclops sure wouldn't at that point), and he was right to complain (because Cyclops screwed over quite a bit of people).

Back on topic, this doesn't change the fact that one, for all the stuff that happened, all Cyclops did was win a large fight. That's not enough, and for the sacrifices made, it wasn't worth it.

They need someone who can do more than win battles, and Cyclops isn't it.

Didn't Xavier help Cable because Cable called out to him. If Cable would have did that from the start chance are he could have talked Scott into letting him take the baby. Plus when Cable did call out to Xavier, Xavier told him if he doesn't like Cable explanation about his part in what was going on he was going to fry his mind.

Scott did what Xavier would have did he let Cable take the baby and that was with out having read Cable mind like Xavier did.

[ivesaidway2much]

Didn't Xavier help Cable because Cable called out to him. If Cable would have did that from the start chance are he could have talked Scott into letting him take the baby. Plus when Cable did call out to Xavier, Xavier told him if he doesn't like Cable explanation about his part in what was going on he was going to fry his mind.

Scott did what Xavier would have did he let Cable take the baby and that was with out having read Cable mind like Xavier did.There was a baby killer in the X-men. Cable was right not to trust them. He would have been delivering the kid right to Bishop.

Oh yeah. And Tony is a piece of crap. Deadpool, Howard the Duck, NFL Superpro, D-Man, or even Jessica Drew would all make much better leaders than he could ever be.

[gorthon616]

I won't get into everything he's done wrong, cause that's a real long conversation. I'll just cite the things that bothered me personally the most.

First there's the Illuminati exiling Hulk. He along with his buddies kidnaps someone unlawfully and launches them into space. And obviously that comes back to haunt a lot of people in WWH.

In Amazing Spider-Man he hires Titanium Man to stage an attack on Congress to show everyone that heroes are needed. His intent was good... but the fact that he goes on and on about gaining the public trust and how the law is the law comes off pretty hollow when THIS is how he starts things off. He's using deception to gain public trust... he's preaching about laws while staging attacks in the middle of Congress. Not the worst thing hes done, but that hypocrisy was shown at the very start, which kind of colors how I looked at him since.

The big problems I have with his action in Frontline revolve around him taking the Green Goblin out of prison, and controlling him to attack the Atlanteans sleepers and the Atlantean Ambassador. He basically stages a terrorost bombing on US soil by having Goblin bomb the sleepers... and I use the term terrosit bombing because Frontline reveals that he did it to scare the public and hero community into thinking there might be a war with Atlantis and be scared into supporting the SHRA. He basically has these Atlanteans murdered (though in all fairness these illegal sleepers might have been dangerous themselves) to further his political agenda, getting Wonderman blown up in the process since SHIELD blackmails him to watch them.

Again, he talks about trying to gain trust with the public when hes using bombings on US soil to try and scare them into going his way. That sort of thinking is just hard to respect. The attack on the Atlantean Ambassaror at least isn't lethal... he doesn't kill anyone there. Though controlling someone to attack another person (this time an innocent person unlike the sleepers) to sway public opinion still leaves a bad taste in my mouth nonetheless.

And in regards to the TBolts... if you read the CW TBolt tie in and if you see the last page of CW 4, they make it clear that Stark put together the villainout TBolt team. He does eventually lose control of them to the CSA after CW... but he's the one that created them. And he specifically takes Osborne out of jail to commit the attacks on the Atlanteans stated above.

Can we say his intentions were good? Sure. And to a degree they are achieving a lot of the desired results, though many are likewise blowing up in his face. But he's flagrantly breaking laws all the while preaching that the law is the law and putting his friends in jail purely because they refuse to sign a piece of paper. He's lying to the public to FOOL them into trusting them more, when in reality he's just justifying the publics mistrust of heroes.

The Hulk/Thunderbolts stuff imo is borderline. Hulk is usually played as an unstoppable threat that cannot be contained, and I don't think Planet Hulk was beyond the boundaries of containing it. Thunderbolts, I think is a dumb unnecessary and a finger-in-the-face-of-real-heroes idea, but I think it's a legitimate one to make.

As for the other two... Well I hadn't read those, but I guess (as much of a cheap out as this is), I'm chalking that up to being written out-of-character. Not every writer is going to treat a character consistently, so you sort of have to pick your poison so to speak. You can either have Iron Man-Frontline/Spider-Man who was a punk, or you have Iron Man-Iron Man who is genuinely playing the part of a hero. I don't think the two are consistent, and so I can't count them both. There are plenty of times where someone acts in a way which is inconsistent with who the character is due to poor writing. I never really liked CW and for the most part ignore what happened that isn't being treated as relevant. Not just things Tony did, but everyone else in that story as well.

[SquidSquod]

Iron Man is not *the* leader. He tends to have his own agenda that goes beyond what’s need it now and for all we know he’s better as a guy behind the curtain maintaining the stability. Iron Man is best as an information gatherer & analyzer, like the NASA/NORAD guys pinging for every threat that will come to the picture. The real Avenger Strategist is Iron Man for he knows what the threat is made & capable of, and likewise prepared for it. Captain America is the Avenger Tactician and field commander because he has an innate ability to see chaotic positions in the heat of the battlefield. (if you don’t know the difference between strategy and tactics, please refer to Wikipedia). Thor of course is the hammer. If the Avenger is a soccer formation, Iron Man is the goalie/defenseman, Cap the middle playmaker, Thor the striker.

Do you want to know who should be the leader of the superheroes? Prof. X. He’s a wise man better in maintaining ethics and morality than even Cap. BTW, I know what's going on. ;)

[ivesaidway2much]

Do you want to know who should be the leader of the superheroes? Prof. X. He’s a wise man better in maintaining ethics and morality than even Cap. BTW, I know what's going on. ;)Are you sure? Because unless you meant Prof. X was better at maintaining negative ethics and morality than Cap is at maintaining positive ones, I'm having a hard time believing that.

[CMBMOOL]

Okay let me ask you all something, how would you describe Tony's apperance in the Captain America ongoing series ?

[SquidSquod]

Are you sure? Because unless you meant Prof. X was better at maintaining negative ethics and morality than Cap is at maintaining positive ones, I'm having a hard time believing that.

What negative ethics you're talking about?

Prof X has long maintained cooperation between humans and mutants are the best approach. He could join Magneto and actually win from long time ago. Prof X is also a scholar in terms of philosophy, he knows and weighs what's the best form of morality instead of naive, basic kind of morality that Cap understood.

[SquidSquod]

Okay let me ask you all something, how would you describe Tony's apperance in the Captain America ongoing series ?

Guilt-ridden, but determined to make sure Cap's wish be realized. Basically he's a good guy.

[XPac]

What negative ethics you're talking about?

Prof X has long maintained cooperation between humans and mutants are the best approach. He could join Magneto and actually win from long time ago. Prof X is also a scholar in terms of philosophy, he knows and weighs what's the best form of morality instead of naive, basic kind of morality that Cap understood.

Xavier's shadier ethics basically removed him from leadership of his own team. I suspect a similiar thing would happen if he were put in a position of the entire hero community.

Similiar to Stark, Xavier lost the respect of his peers once his underhanded actions came to light. People like them can be capable, not not necessarily the best leaders because of that.

[Laughing Mask]

iron man maybe.

cyclops? i wouldn't fallow a guy who wasn't man enough for jean grey!!

[SquidSquod]

Xavier's shadier ethics basically removed him from leadership of his own team. I suspect a similiar thing would happen if he were put in a position of the entire hero community.

Similiar to Stark, Xavier lost the respect of his peers once his underhanded actions came to light. People like them can be capable, not not necessarily the best leaders because of that.

Xavier is still the most respected X-Men or maybe superpowered person. Shadier ethics are used because the time requires it, or perish thru chaos. Xavier is a scholar in philosophy & ethics, he's not some lay guy who understand ethics because his mom & pop told him so. Best leaders are not some naive guy, examples are Lincoln or FDR.

[XPac]

Xavier is still the most respected X-Men or maybe superpowered person. Shadier ethics are used because the time requires it, or perish thru chaos. Xavier is a scholar in philosophy & ethics, he's not some lay guy who understand ethics because his mom & pop told him so. Best leaders are not some naive guy, examples are Lincoln or FDR.

The MOST respected super hero is unfortunately dead right now. And I'm not talking about Xavier.

Xavier is respected too... but that said, there's a reason he no longer led the X-Men. And the same reasons that's not the case would likely apply to a lot of the hero community in general. You may not have any problems with some of Xaviers shadier tactics... but the point is that many of his students did. And I think many heroes would as well.

If there ever were a single person to lead the hero community, it would have to be someone that people trusted. And that people that use dishonest methods to manipulate their peers like Xavier and Stark have a bad tendency of tossing that trust out the window as we've seen in recent years. Either could be capable leaders... but they wouldn't be the best leaders because people rightly have trouble trusting them.

[SquidSquod]

Leaders are not just about trust and honesty that looks good in text book, they are also needed for their managerial skill and knowledge. In a democratic world, these factors will determine if the people want to vote for him. Xavier is more rounded than Stark, but don't think Stark has what he needs to get the job done. He manages SHIELD as well as Fury, so even if he's a little dishonest, people will still standby behind him.

[XPac]

Leaders are not just about trust and honesty that looks good in text book, they are also needed for their managerial skill and knowledge. In a democratic world, these factors will determine if the people want to vote for him. Xavier is more rounded than Stark, but don't think Stark has what he needs to get the job done. He manages SHIELD as well as Fury, so even if he's a little dishonest, people will still standby behind him.

I'm not sure I agree Stark runs SHIELD as well as Fury. Stark is already on the verge of losing power at SHIELD in the Iron Man book and it's only been a few months. Stark does have excellent knowledge and managerial skills... but his people skills sucks (plus, he's really not a military person).

[SquidSquod]

I'm not sure I agree Stark runs SHIELD as well as Fury. Stark is already on the verge of losing power at SHIELD in the Iron Man book and it's only been a few months. Stark does have excellent knowledge and managerial skills... but his people skills sucks (plus, he's really not a military person).

Stark was implicated with charges outside of how he manages SHIELD (and curiously it's only going on in Iron Man comics). He manages SHIELD impeccably and SHIELD personnel are better equipped and funded than Fury. Fury is a spy-military guy. Iron Man is a scientist-business-political guy. Who's more rounded in his mastery of many disciplines you decide; it's just that SHIELD as a military-spy organization should be handed to someone who really sets his mind to it. Tony has never thought about being permanently placed on top of SHIELD. This is Fury's chair. Tony ought to think about his own corporation and being an inventor again. The thing about Stark is that he never wants to be permanent in a situation. That's what he think about being an Avenger; it's his idea but he doesn't want to be in it forever.

Yes, Stark people's skill suck. But there are a lot of other heroes who are worst than him. He charmed a lot of guys and make people like Dugan & Hill believers by doing.

[ivesaidway2much]

What negative ethics you're talking about?

Prof X has long maintained cooperation between humans and mutants are the best approach. He could join Magneto and actually win from long time ago. Prof X is also a scholar in terms of philosophy, he knows and weighs what's the best form of morality instead of naive, basic kind of morality that Cap understood.I don't know many people that would be willing to follow someone who thinks long-term slavery is a reasonable tactic.

[Red Lotus]

There was a baby killer in the X-men. Cable was right not to trust them. He would have been delivering the kid right to Bishop.

Oh yeah. And Tony is a piece of crap. Deadpool, Howard the Duck, NFL Superpro, D-Man, or even Jessica Drew would all make much better leaders than he could ever be.

Cable didn't know anything about Bishop. Cable reasons for not calling Scott was half my team turned out to be Marauders so I cant trust anyone not even my dad because he might be one too. That was just stupid. First off the members of Cable team that turn on him were bad guys to start off with. Its just funny that Cable is so paranoid about two people who you knew were going to stab you in back because that is what they do and that turns into he can’t trust anyone.

[XPac]

Cable didn't know anything about Bishop. Cable reasons for not calling Scott was half my team turned out to be Marauders so I cant trust anyone not even my dad because he might be one too. That was just stupid. First off the members of Cable team that turn on him were bad guys to start off with. Its just funny that Cable is so paranoid about two people who you knew were going to stab you in back because that is what they do and that turns into he can’t trust anyone.

Considering that Bischop ended up turning on him though, I think in hindsight we can argue Cable's paranoia was justified.

[Red Lotus]

Considering that Bischop ended up turning on him though, I think in hindsight we can argue Cable's paranoia was justified.

Bishop was on the outs with the X-men after the whole thing with Civil War and the One. If Cable would have contacted the X-men and told them what was going on chances are Bishop wouldn't even been player, because they wouldn't have called him in.

[Dorsai]

Could these men really lead the Marvel Universe in it current state ?

And if not them then who could lead the Marvel Universe into contless victories over the various villains of the world ?

I don't believe either one fits the bill. Tony Stark is a villain in all but name and Cyclops is of interest only to those that enjoy the mutantverse. There are many (such as myself) that do not enjoy or read mutant books. I would not enjoy or actively follow books with either in a leading role.

Cyclops can lead the mutants -- that doesn't really matter to me since I don't read those books. But for the rest of Marvel Universe, I don't think there is anyone ready to inherit Cap's mantle outside of Nick Fury and some SHIELD-like rogue organization that follows its own agenda.

[ivesaidway2much]

Bishop was on the outs with the X-men after the whole thing with Civil War and the One. If Cable would have contacted the X-men and told them what was going on chances are Bishop wouldn't even been player, because they wouldn't have called him in.Maybe they would have called him in maybe they wouldn't have. The X-men still contacted X-Factor even though they were on the outs with them.

But regardless Bishop is from the future. He would likely have been fairly familiar with the baby's backstory, approximate date of birth, and/or the circumstances of her birth. He probably would have volunteered his help even if the X-men didn't ask for it. It's not paranoia when people really are out to get you.

[Red Lotus]

Maybe they would have called him in maybe they wouldn't have. The X-men still contacted X-Factor even though they were on the outs with them.

But regardless Bishop is from the future. He would likely have been fairly familiar with the baby's backstory, approximate date of birth, and/or the circumstances of her birth. He probably would have volunteered his help even if the X-men didn't ask for it. It's not paranoia when people really are out to get you.

The X-factor thing is part of the chain of events that Cable started by not contacting Scott. If he had contacted Scott X-factor would never had been called in. It is paranoia when you let it affect you decisions making so much that you don’t call your own father because half of your ex teammates were Marauders.

[Kage Kisaragi]

To answer the OP's original question. Please look to my Bad Slogan / Word Association Game. Excerpts...

Cyclops

Adulterer--
Control Freak--
Family Deserter--

X-Man!?

---------------------
New take on Iron Man

Iron Man

Self Righteous
Vindictive
Lier

Jerk!?

[rZi]

Cylcops has been leading the X corner of the MU for a long long time. So him stepping up is hardly anything new.

I agree, and with tony i think he works in the sense of he could lead S.H.I.E.L.D well and possibly his avengers squad but nothing more....now if it was captain america on the pro-reg side..

[XPac]

I agree, and with tony i think he works in the sense of he could lead S.H.I.E.L.D well and possibly his avengers squad but nothing more....now if it was captain america on the pro-reg side..

The truth is though, Captain America (and I'm not talking about Bucky) is probably the ONLY person universaly respected enough to lead the entire hero community.

[Kage Kisaragi]

The truth is though, Captain America (and I'm not talking about Bucky) is probably the ONLY person universaly respected enough to lead the entire hero community.

you mean marvel hero community?

[SquidSquod]

To answer the OP's original question. Please look to my Bad Slogan / Word Association Game. Excerpts...

Cyclops

Adulterer--
Control Freak--
Family Deserter--

X-Man!?

---------------------
New take on Iron Man

Iron Man

Self Righteous
Vindictive
Lier

Jerk!?

I can live with that... if there are other positive qualities to balance them. Cyke is a bit too extreme in the family issue part, but if you notice Iron Man has the same trait like Batman in the DC Comics. As long as he's still heroic & brave, we can overlook the negatives and brand them as "flaws". Flaws are what Marvel calls as necessary ingredients in their heroes.

Now, my next question why are still flawless heroes in Marvel like the new Thor and to a lesser degree, Black Panther?

[Kage Kisaragi]

I can live with that... if there are other positive qualities to balance them. Cyke is a bit too extreme in the family issue part, but if you notice Iron Man has the same trait like Batman in the DC Comics. As long as he's still heroic & brave, we can overlook the negatives and brand them as "flaws". Flaws are what Marvel calls as necessary ingredients in their heroes.

Now, my next question why are still flawless heroes in Marvel like the new Thor and to a lesser degree, Black Panther?

For guys like me who prefer to read about Flawless Heroes who still hold to the hallmark of what it means to be a true blue superhero. Sure I read about these "easier to relate to heroes!" because of their flaws but I don't find myself relating to any nameable flawed hero or heroine. However since I'm supposed to be relating I can only label them as failing. At least the ones who are supposedly Flawless (though I'm sure some people will say otherwise.) give me the impression or let me know right away, "I am totally different from you, my life is totally unlike anything you will ever know. What you find to be relevant to you is a minor trifle for me, so on and so forth and I accept that and read the book anyway hoping to escape from whats relevant to me.

[SquidSquod]

The truth is though, Captain America (and I'm not talking about Bucky) is probably the ONLY person universaly respected enough to lead the entire hero community.

In tactical engagement and as a moral beacon, yes. In strategic and clandestine cold war, nu uh. Nick Fury & Iron Man are better in understanding what's behind the rocks. Prof X & BP are pretty much wiser.

[SquidSquod]

For guys like me who prefer to read about Flawless Heroes who still hold to the hallmark of what it means to be a true blue superhero. Sure I read about these "easier to relate to heroes!" because of their flaws but I don't find myself relating to any nameable flawed hero or heroine. However since I'm supposed to be relating I can only label them as failing. At least the ones who are supposedly Flawless (though I'm sure some people will say otherwise.) give me the impression or let me know right away, "I am totally different from you, my life is totally unlike anything you will ever know. What you find to be relevant to you is a minor trifle for me, so on and so forth and I accept that and read the book anyway hoping to escape from whats relevant to me.

The standard bearers of Marveldom are 2 flawed heroes: Spidey (though I don't really see being a loser a flaw) and Wolverine. Next in line is the Hulk. Now if this constellation changes with Thor or Classic Cap on top, I don't see the ending of flawed heroes. What's going on DC comics also doesn't help, as Batman is truly the bigger hero than true-blue Superman. Now what's going on with Cyke and Shellhead might be a gross exaggeration of flaws, and I think Marvel's getting it by making a kinder, gentler Iron Man and Cyclops in 2008.

[Kage Kisaragi]

The standard bearers of Marveldom are 2 flawed heroes: Spidey (though I don't really see being a loser a flaw) and Wolverine. Next in line is the Hulk. Now if this constellation changes with Thor or Classic Cap on top, I don't see the ending of flawed heroes. What's going on DC comics also doesn't help, as Batman is truly the bigger hero than true-blue Superman. Now what's going on with Cyke and Shellhead might be a gross exaggeration of flaws, and I think Marvel's getting it by making a kinder, gentler Iron Man and Cyclops in 2008.

2008 has Cyke and his X-Force out for blood against the Purifiers and its certainly something they deserve and im not entirely sure its Cyke's call or not as oppose to Wolverine going off doing his own thing but this time under the mantle of "It's revenge." ... wait its always about revenge for him.

It also sounds like Cyke is seeking the Young X-Men on some new Brotherhood of Evil Mutants, and it didn't sound like it was gonna be one of those. "We kicked your arse so run away and come back to fight us another day." type of spectacles we were so used to seeing in the past.

Anyway im not exactly sure what you mean. Yes Spider-mans original pull to the audience was that he was the everyman, he had problems and so on but they were problems we could relate to.. yet I dont know anyone who's worst problem concerns the public knowing their secret identity and wanting that undone so they make a deal with the devil. Wolverine's original pull was that he was the underdog as shown in his first appearance, but even then his tenacious attitude made him really strike a cord with the target audience. So while I'm not taking anything from these guys, I don't understand what you mean when you say they aren't going anywhere. This I know and im not even trying to fight it, its just that knowing and accepting them as my kind of characters are two different things.

[CMBMOOL]

Well thanks to Cyclops it seems that the Young X-men will not be able trust any of the adult X-men. :(

So this would add with X-force reformed as a secret and the Young X-men weary of the adult X-men, boy is Cyclops a good leader or what ? :mad:

[Vaal]

Cycloips has gone nuts over what he thought was Cable's betrayal. You shouldn't trust him to lead mutants anymore than you trust a suicidal man to watch the noose museum. He's on an administrative killing spree born out of misplaced vengence over Cable and Mystique 'turning'.

The man should be getting help, not being handed more people he can use like Frank Castle uses guns.

[Maverick_Tongue]

While we're analyzing the situations that the Cyclops and Iron Man are in, let's stop for a second and ponder.

1. When has Cyclops NOT been the leader of the mutant community? Xavier has always been in the backfield, strategizing away for mutant/human coexistence. The man who's had to live with the decisions that flow from that has always been Cyke (and, to a lesser extent, Storm). Now, instead of marching to Xavier's drum, Cyke has taken more of an active role in SHAPING the policies of mutantkind, instead of simply implementing them. I don't necessarily think that he's the right guy for it (I've always felt that Storm was a better, more disciplined, and moral character than Cyke) but suggesting that he's not been right there is a little farfetched.

2. As for Tony, consider the same factors. How long has Tony been making the important, overarching calls (A LONG TIME). He was a founding Avenger, recruited Cap, and has been one of the central players in the non-X hero community since its inception. There have really only been two major decisions in which Cap and Iron Man have disagreed: Tony's Decision to attempt to assassinate the Supreme Intelligence, and the Civil War. That's about it.
a. As far as I understand, his biggest problem right now is that he won. That's it. He WON THE CIVIL WAR. War, by definition, is a ugly, bloody business. After Stamford, there was going to be an outcry in public opinion for more accountability on behalf of superheroes, who could arguably be described as one man WMDs. There's nothing really surprising about this: If you live in the US (as I do) there are certain types of weapons you can't possess, regardless of your reasons for doing so, and other nations can be equally as restrictive. Try applying for a permit to get a Sherman tank and see what I mean. Tony, seeing the way this was going, became the cause's spear carrier. Cap, opposing the argument, did the same. Did Tony sap the public? SURE. Is that dirty? YOU BET. But aren't the anti-regulation heroes guilty of a few things too (most notably siding with villains like the Kingpin and Namor (who threatens about every other year to take over the surface world by FORCE, and the Punisher, who's killed more people than cancer?) Remember the end of CW. Cap concedes that open rebellion against the SHRA was winning everything except the argument about registration in the first place.
b. Let's not even touch the argument about the Atlanteans. See above comment about Namor.
c. Tony probably shouldn't be running SHIELD. But, last I checked, he didn't ask for the job, and if Fury would leave a forwarding address occassionally, the job would likely still be his.
d. The Illuminati- This is the weirdest anti-reg argument that I've ever heard. Tony is WRONG for having assembled a group of powerful super heroes to essentially police the superhuman community, but he is also WRONG in supporting/implementing the SHRA? Exactly what kind of accountability does any superhero have then, as most law enforcement entities are horrendously overmatched? Should some of his tactics be deplored (the Titanium man scandal, the T-Bolts)? SURE.
e. Then there's the Hulk. Okay, exactly what is the body count on the Hulk, I mean really? Dozens? Hundreds? Thousands? Every time the Hulk throws a temper tantrum, the world has a global recession from property damage alone. And let's stop comparing the situation to the kidnapping of an ordinary individual. We ordinary mortals generally lack the ability to simply flout the rules. The Hulk doesn't. The Hulk recognizes no authority, is answerable to no one, and continually threatens the people of Earth. A real villain, say Doom, would find a way to subvert the Hulk to doing his bidding, or simply kill him.The plan that the Illuminati concieve to exile Hulk to space was humane, and utterly fair to all parties concerned. It's an accident that he goes to a war-torn planet. If the Hulk's real desire was to be left alone, and essentially that was the plan.

Tony may not be the saint that Cap was, but until Steve gets back, he's the guy I'd go with. Especially because it doesn't seem like anyone else (read: Namor, Prof. X, Doc Strange, Black Bolt, Black Panther, Mr. Fantastic, and virtually any of his critics) have the guts to step up and take charge.

[Kage Kisaragi]

Cyclops was never the leader of the mutant community, he was the field commander of the X-Men, Charles Xavier was the leader of one part of the mutant community, his views on mutants and human co-existance were the hopes and dreams of many mutants, while Magneto was the leader of another faction of the mutant community, believing that mutants should inherit the earth and that all mankind needed to be buried or have their fossils put on display like the dinosaurs. Then there was the lowest common denominator the Morlocks who didn't believe in either of those two mens ideals and because of their mutations wanted to be left alone.

Cyclops never had a vision, he never had a dream, he followed someone else's. Now current Cyclops has neither of those either, and is only leader of a practically extinct race of human deviants, he's practically in Black Bolt's shoes, except there is no united mutant sovereignty. Actually come to think of it no he's not even that, no one outside of the X-Men are unifying or looking to Cyclops for the future. What he does now he does only as the Leader of the X-Men, and title he only recently got after taking control of the school. Which no longer exist so in fact he's only leading the remaining X-Men out of habit and acceptance on their part.

[Maverick_Tongue]

My point was who deals with the consequences of Xavier's so-called vision? Scott Summers. When Xavier goes rogue during the Onslaught crisis, who deals with the mess? Cyclops. When Cerebro is exposed as a sentient slave, who has to pull the threads together? Cyclops. The troubling times that the X-men have dealt with have always, inevitably, had to be settled by the guy whom is taking all the literal (and not just figurative) bullets. And Charles has never been that guy. In order to be a leader, you must have more than a sage vision. That vision must be accompanied by action. Xavier, whether due to his incapacitated status or his ennui, has always depended on Cyclops to enact that dream. Without the actions of the X-men's field commander, all the wishing and hoping for a better world is little more than hot air. Trying to seperate the two of them just because it's Charles's idea is functionally dishonest at best.

Also, if the rest of the Xs are following Cyclops (whether out of habit or not) doesn't that undercut the claim that the dream is exclusively (or even primarily) Charles's. Arguing that the X-men are following him out of habit establishes, not diminishes, that Cyclops is the guy from whom orders flow.

[Erik Lehnsherr]

The Iron Man movie could end up pushing Stark into the next level of mainstream success. He still won't be what the Spider-Man/X-Men/Batman/Hulk is to the average fan but he'll be known for more than his comic role.

As for Scott Summers? All I'll say is that, even though Carey and Brubaker are writiing him like he's some sort of stragetic genius all of a sudden, I still prefer Storm. I think it's funny how they are trying to revise Cyclops as if he cares about the core of the dream. I mean...even though Bishop went rogue recently, it always felt like he believed in Charles Xavier more than Scott and any of the present X-Men simply because of what he meant to his future.

[Kage Kisaragi]

The Iron Man movie could end up pushing Stark into the next level of mainstream success. He still won't be what the Spider-Man/X-Men/Batman/Hulk is to the average fan but he'll be known for more than his comic role.

As for Scott Summers? All I'll say is that, even though Carey and Brubaker are writiing him like he's some sort of stragetic genius all of a sudden, I still prefer Storm. I think it's funny how they are trying to revise Cyclops as if he cares about the core of the dream. I mean...even though Bishop went rogue recently, it always felt like he believed in Charles Xavier more than Scott and any of the present X-Men simply because of what he meant to his future.

You know I didn't even think about that part of the Bishop fiasco but yeah, Cyclops can make all the cool sounding strategic checker moves he wants however the game is chess and therefore I see him failing in the future... or at least I hope he does.

[Peeps]

who was picked to be leader during house of M, when iron man was around?

tony is more about furthering his agenda and what is best for him. scott looks at the whole situation and decides what is the best course of action and doesnt let personal feelings sway him either way

[XPac]

who was picked to be leader during house of M, when iron man was around?

tony is more about furthering his agenda and what is best for him. scott looks at the whole situation and decides what is the best course of action and doesnt let personal feelings sway him either way

That's true.. though in all fairness this was a conflict against Magneto. That sort of made this more an Xman thing. Had the big bad been Kang, it's possible one of the Avengers might have taken the league.

But that said, I do think it's fair to say Cyclops is looked upon as Cap lite. Or at least he's looked at that way in the X verse.

[SquidSquod]

tony is more about furthering his agenda and what is best for him.

May I ask what really is Tony Stark's agenda?

[Arilou]

I'd really like to see some more coordination between Scot & Tony by the way. I some sense Scott is now assuming Charles' place not just as the head of the X-men but as the leader of the mutant community.

[XPac]

I'd really like to see some more coordination between Scot & Tony by the way. I some sense Scott is now assuming Charles' place not just as the head of the X-men but as the leader of the mutant community.

Though the mutants didn't side against Tony during CW, I honestly got the vibe that he didn't exactly see eye to eye with Cyclops. The fact that the X-Men are blatently harboring Wolverine, a New Avenger, probably didn't notivate Scott to bond more with Tony either.

Though I see them being able to work together when it's necessary, I don't think the Xmen would go out of their way to develop any sort of working relationship with Stark.

[Erik Lehnsherr]

You know I didn't even think about that part of the Bishop fiasco but yeah, Cyclops can make all the cool sounding strategic checker moves he wants however the game is chess and therefore I see him failing in the future... or at least I hope he does.

It's apparent that people hated the Onslaught saga to a degree but there was a certain aftermath issue...maybe Uncanny #337 where they showed Bishop in a room by himself with his head down in near depression because he couldn't believe it was Xavier that shafted the team over in the end. Gambit walked in on him and he apologized to Gambit for blaming him all this time. Underrated scene in X-lore.

As for Stark and Summers teaming up? There's a issue of Uncanny coming up where they are gonna be interacting. I think it's in the March book.

[LungerTony]

Cycloips has gone nuts over what he thought was Cable's betrayal. You shouldn't trust him to lead mutants anymore than you trust a suicidal man to watch the noose museum. He's on an administrative killing spree born out of misplaced vengence over Cable and Mystique 'turning'.

The man should be getting help, not being handed more people he can use like Frank Castle uses guns.

Lolz. I don't agree with you, but you said in an entertaining fashion.

[Kage Kisaragi]

who was picked to be leader during house of M, when iron man was around?

tony is more about furthering his agenda and what is best for him. scott looks at the whole situation and decides what is the best course of action and doesnt let personal feelings sway him either way

Which is great when you want said person to be your field commander, not so great when you want them to be the spokesman or spearhead your community.

[wolp]

Has Marvel ever tried to push Cyclops over the topÉ (question mark doesn`t work). Like WWE pushes their wrestlers to Championship status I`d love giving Cyclops more play in the upper area of the Marvel universe. I think it kinda sucks that they never made Cyclops into a main event type of guy. He could`ve been bigger than Wolverine!

[CMBMOOL]

Well it seems that with professor X in a coma and has been taken a way from right under the X-men's nose , it seems that even cyclops doesn't believe that he dead after all this time according to the previews of
Uncanny:

http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=12838