The Ultimates 3, #2 Spoilers

[RodeoWearden]

Yeah, I can buy the Venom name and symbal visavis the US game (which was actually a lot of fun.) Can't figure out why he turned into poo. Was it really venom? Was it a symbiote knockoff? Where's the human host?

And valkyrie sucks. Sucks sucks sucks. But I'm glad she's part of the team. Its one of those little twists that you dont really want, but you're happy to put up with.

Hawkeye's butt cape...well, I've already added a butt cape to my everyday wardrobe. It's great in public restrooms.

And I hadnt thought about the Wasp being caucasion in relation to manga art style. i thought it was a deliberate move, but you may be right. I hadnt heard that theory before.

[xnef1025]

My theory is he was looking for Wanda. He wasn't there to kill her though. He was on orders from somebody who got wind of the assasination attempt(Magneto?) to save her.

[Beast]

My theory is he was looking for Wanda. He wasn't there to kill her though. He was on orders from somebody who got wind of the assasination attempt(Magneto?) to save her.
That's my guess also. It makes the most sense anyway.

[Oblivion87]

My theory is he was looking for Wanda. He wasn't there to kill her though. He was on orders from somebody who got wind of the assasination attempt(Magneto?) to save her.

Yeah thats also my guess, although it raises the question of how Magneto got wind of the assassination?

[Blader5489]

Yeah, I can buy the Venom name and symbal visavis the US game (which was actually a lot of fun.) Can't figure out why he turned into poo. Was it really venom? Was it a symbiote knockoff? Where's the human host?

Did you read the Venom arc in USM? Same thing happens to him there too: gets electrocuted and collapses into a black puddle.

[RodeoWearden]

Did you read the Venom arc in USM? Same thing happens to him there too: gets electrocuted and collapses into a black puddle.

Huh. You're absolutely right. I just went back and re-read USM#38. I had it in my mind that he just collapsed but he does in fact goo it up. I guess I got thrown off by Hawkeye's comment "Since when does Venom turn into a pile of poo?"
Which suggests that the Ultimates have at least some familiarity with Venom. I wonder how they missed this?

[carabas]

Which suggests that the Ultimates have at least some familiarity with Venom. I wonder how they missed this?It only sugests that the writer does not have some familiarity with the Ultimate version of Venom.

[hunter_peterson]

I have a theory about the Spectacular Venom Poo. In Spider-man 2099 Venom molecularly bonded with a host. Maybe they are one and the same?

[Sean Whitmore]

Actually the game is most definitely NOT in continuity. It doesn't fit, Silver Sabler needs alzheimers for that to work. Played the game, read the books, just no. Plus the war of the symbiotes ark is an "adaptation of the game" says Bendis.

So either Bendis was wrong when he said the game was in continuity, or Bendis was wrong when he said the new story is an adaptation of the game.


SEAN

[ThePhenom]

The "story" begins with Hawkeye sticking a dart into Spidey, in lieu of the Venom-related attack on the Ultimates HQ. They exchanged choppy dialogue resulting in Hawkeye threatening him if he has anything to do with Venom attacking. Cap interrupts explaining their is an emergency at the mansion. Hawkeye and Cap leave Spidey unconscious on the floor. Cap reassures Hawkeye that Black Panther will be found.

Quiksilver runs through the door to the Ultimates HQ to a Wasp over a comatose Pym screaming about Wanda and why they weren't there for her. Quiksilver ponders whether the Brotherhood would have let this happen then an emergency alarm hits.

Tony lies there, drinking due to his grief over Natasha. Thor lies with Valkyrie and explains why he now talks as he does, i.e. he has nothing left to prove to the naysayers. The breach turns out to be the Brotherhood attack with Mystique, Sabretooth, Blob, Lorelai and Madrox.

A scene of Widow coming to Tony and just as his shocked reaction comes Wasp jumps out of her ear revealing it to be Mystique. Tony suits up. Lorelai uses her power to persuade Thor into thinking Valkyrie is a fraud and their fight begins.

Blob is eating as Wasp goes after him, more choppy dialogue, and Blob is soon taken out by a shot from Iron Man. Cap against Sabretooth now, Hawkeye against Madrox. The case with all of these fights is that nothing really eventuates.

EDIT: Right almost missed a vital point, Magneto sent the Brotherhood as he is claiming the body and Quiksilver ends up obliging, taking Wanda and leaving with them.

The final page Wolverine stands at the door entering the fray.

So hard to write spoilers without being overly snarky and cynical...

[ThePhenom]

Wanted to keep my opinions seperate, but HORRENDOUS issue. The worst issue I've ever read in the history of Ultimate comics (and I've read Kirkman's whole run). I was staying optimistic about the title and refused to drop it rather wanting to wait it out but this issue really is starting to push that.

Loeb's excuse for exposition was just irritating (show, don't tell :rolleyes:), having everything stated so blatantly clearly just excusing the fact he's too arrogant to stick with anything that's been established so far. His potrayal of every character is starting to deviate even further from issue one.

The lack of logic in a lot of parts was tiresome, mostly citing why Hawkeye would go after Spider-Man due to Venom's actions and accuse him of being a part of it. It's also nice to know that instead of reading any Ultimate comics before (hell even Wiki-ing them) he just chooses to assume it's all pretty 616. Madrox being his codename is a nit to pick but most Ultimate writers have some awareness of what's going on around them.

Some good points though, Mad's art was pretty good but I think he stuck the skull on Mystique when she doesn't have it in UU (but I may be wrong) and I have the knowledge that Loeb will eventually be off the book at least.

[xarathos]

Well, you guys are right, the writing is pretty bad. They just left Ultimate Spidey down there on the ground.

I normally don't like the digital inking process or whatever it is, but this looks better. I still like the inks over the pencils, just old fashion and it works better.

I could be wrong, but I don't remember a character named Lorelei. Is she like the Ultimate version of Astra. Remember her? I didn't think so.

Hey, did this book come out on time? I don't believe it!

[Dr. Chaos]

I could be wrong, but I don't remember a character named Lorelei.
Read Cable & Deadpool #49.

What is with Tony seemingly lamenting and getting wasted over The Black Widow?

I might have missed something but it doen't seem like he had that hard of a time discarding her before.

[DjMichael691]

Again, I loved this issue along with the first one. The only thing is that this issue felt very short, but I am still intrigued and want more.

The art, BEAUTIFULL. I wish Joe Mad would draw more titles.

[DarkCrisis]

The Thor part about his speech was so LAME.

Loeb has destoryed The Ultimates.

[Vapour Trail]

So in the two hours until the sedative wears off, a bunch of kids could come around unmask spidey, take his picture and post it on YouTube.

How is this NOT going to happen. It's New York!

If Ellis or Millar were writing this, Cap would have radioed SHIELD to come pick him up. They still have their SHIELD contacts. And they owe Spidey for his help in Ultimate Six and Ultimate Power.

It seems like it was just an excuse to get Spidey in the book.

[Brian M.]

This issue was much better. It felt like a decent Ultimates issue. The art, b/c it was so dark, was so much more enjoyable. Loved the fight scenes.

[CapnCaveman]

Wow, someone was actually able to take one of the best comic runs ever (Ultimates & Ultimates 2) and completely ruin it in 2 issues. They ruined the best incarnations of Thor, Hawkeye and Cap in 20 years. Brutal.

[flapjaxx]

This is basically storytelling at its worst.

I buy this book because of Joe Mad so that's what I'm going to talk about.

I think it's really clear that this guy has more raw talent than almost any comic artist ever. He's really a prodigy and savant. He could flat out out-draw anyone in a head to head poster competition. The immensely sad thing is that he's never really honed his storytelling skills. Maybe his sort of inborn talent doesn't lend itself to panel-to-panel storytelling, but I think part of the problem is simply that he's never worked with any great writers who could sort of show him the way. (I don't know if he went to any comic art school, but I assume he didn't. He seems completely self-taught.) He needed to work with someone like an Alan Moore who would give him a meticulously detailed script explaining everything in every panel, how things changed between panels, and WHY. He needed someone like that to really bust his ass and make him learn storytelling.

Instead we have the logistic mess that is this issue. People have already pointed out the inconsistencies in the Hawkeye/Spiderman scene. I think this is all Loeb's fault. I think he just told Joe Mad: "Draw Hawkeye shooting Spidey. He's looking for Venom. Now draw Spidey hopping away while Hawkeye's shooting." I don't think Loeb even explained to Mad who Hawkeye was supposed to be shooting at in that panel, so Mad just drew him shooting in the coolest way possible, which wasn't at Spidey. Also on the next page Spidey doesn't have the needle sticking in him, which makes me suspect that certain pages or even panels were drawn out of order across a period of months. Cap's shield-throw and entrance were particularly jarring. Often we never get a full or nearly full "establishing" shot of characters or locations. This is the fault of the editor and the fault of Loeb for not explaining things better.

Chris Bachalo is another great artist who has trouble with panel-to-panel transitions. Often people complain that they can't understand what's happening in his artwork. But when he works with a great writer--when he works with Neil Gaiman--this is never a problem. That's because good writers, or writers not writing four books a month under pressure, explain what should be in panels and why. Or at least they explain the logistics of issues and scenes. I doubt Madureira really knew what the story was about while he drew it. (For his sake, I hope he didn't.)

This is best interpreted as a series of beautiful images that may or may not have anything to do with one another. When the Brotherhood showed up--WOW, what a beautiful page. Then I noticed that Joeb had some dialogue in there--YUCK. Can we please get a silent version of this arc, with better coloring for issue #1?

[Sheldon]

This last post makes me wonder if Loeb had a full script or marvel style one and left it up to Joe Mad's storytelling abilities...

[flapjaxx]

P.S. Can anyone name a more useless plot device than the "countdown" going on in this issue? What was even being counted down? It wasn't Wolverine's appearance, since we still have seconds left when he appears. So I guess we were counting down to the momentous moment AFTER Wolverine finishes speaking his dialogue--and what important dialogue that was. We usually reserve countdowns for bomb-detonations and spaceship launches, but I guess the moment AFTER the words "You've got a much bigger problem on your hands!" is just as exciting.

I know it didn't take me "twenty-two minutes" to read the damn comic...

[flapjaxx]

This last post makes me wonder if Loeb had a full script or marvel style one and left it up to Joe Mad's storytelling abilities...

I was thinking about that too. Honestly I doubt he even gave Mad anything that could be called a "script". If he relied on Joe Mad's storytelling abilities, that was an obvious mistake. Even Marvel-style scripts have more of a logic to them.

*gets off soapbox*

[TheAmazingSpidey]

Sorry, Loeb, you just aren't the guy for The Ultimates.

[Beast]

Read Cable & Deadpool #49.

What is with Tony seemingly lamenting and getting wasted over The Black Widow?

I might have missed something but it doen't seem like he had that hard of a time discarding her before.
The release of the sex tape seems to be the cause of that.

And loved the issue, I really like what Loeb's doing with Ultimates right now. Refreshing change.

[LordGorto]

Seriously, this is the worst Ultimate universe comic I have ever read. Possibly one of the worst comics in the past 5 years. I expect better dialogue from the guy who wrote Spider-Man: Blue than,
"Every time I hear a bullet, I'm reminded of my wife... my kids..."
I wanted to puke. I expect dialogue like this in a Square Enix RPG, not the comic title based on a REALISTIC view of the MU.

[Desmodus]

Everyone has a right to an opinion, but it appears story arc conclusions aren't just being jumped to, they're being stomped all over, repeatedly, by a readers still hung up on the Millar/Hitch run.

Can't make an excuse for the dialogue, however.

[static]

Close your eyes...put your fingers in your ear and keep screaming at the top of your lungs over and over "THIS IS NOT THE ULTIMATES AND HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ULITMATES 1 AND 2!!!!!!!!" in a few months take out your fingers and open your eyes and go about your lives...damn this is horrific from the art to the dialouge to the plot....

[ThePhenom]

Everyone has a right to an opinion, but it appears story arc conclusions aren't just being jumped to, they're being stomped all over, repeatedly, by a readers still hung up on the Millar/Hitch run.

Can't make an excuse for the dialogue, however.

Well dialogue is pretty damn important, one of the most significant factors in creating a story even. I'd say it's a matter or whether people are still hung up on the Millar run or a run in which the Ultimates was good.

I'd go with either over this...

[rilokyle]

Having not read any other Ultimates books, I might be a little biased, but I'm not totally hating this series. I'm mainly picking it up because I love Joe Mad's art (although I'm still on the fence about the digital coloring). Storywise, the actual overall plot is intriguing. The team's gone to shit so as to why I'm curious yaddadyaddyadda. But yeah, the overall dialogue is so craptastic. That Thor scene was so Lame with a capital L. And I feel like a lot of the time the characters are just speaking for exposition.

Oh and my theory about Wanda's shooter and all this bad stuff that's happening? I have this feeling Wanda did it herself like in Avengers: Disassembled style.

[ThePhenom]

Having not read any other Ultimates books, I might be a little biased, but I'm not totally hating this series. I'm mainly picking it up because I love Joe Mad's art (although I'm still on the fence about the digital coloring). Storywise, the actual overall plot is intriguing. The team's gone to shit so as to why I'm curious yaddadyaddyadda. But yeah, the overall dialogue is so craptastic. That Thor scene was so Lame with a capital L. And I feel like a lot of the time the characters are just speaking for exposition.

Oh and my theory about Wanda's shooter and all this bad stuff that's happening? I have this feeling Wanda did it herself like in Avengers: Disassembled style.

If you're hating this without having read the Ultimates 1 & 2 you should consider yourself lucky to not have something to compare it to, the problems with it just become that much more apparent when you see how well it can be done.

I like that theory though, I always hoped for some vague reference to House of M from Ultimate Wanda personally. Like she whispers 'No More Mutants' and depowers Ultimate Unus or something but doesn't go beyond that even remotely :D .

[Young Avenger]

This was the worst comic of the week. This read like awful fan fiction. After reading this awful crap I can't think of why Marvel would give Loeb the keys to the Ultimate Universe. If this and Ultimate Power are any induction then the Ultimate Universe is in for a every bad year.

Also, this issue makes me think that Cap is Black Panther.

[carabas]

"Every time I hear a bullet, I'm reminded of my wife... my kids..."
I wanted to puke. I expect dialogue like this in a Square Enix RPG, not the comic title based on a REALISTIC view of the MU.Yep. Also, if you're the one with the big hand cannons, you kinda lose the right to whine about the sound your bullets make.

[prodigy]

Ultimates V3 is an embarrassment to comic books.

Whose idea was it to let Loeb write this thing?

Thor is not supposed to talk like that. "Yeah. People know who I am now so.... Somehow, with some flawed logic, I now have to go and start talking differently."

WTF does talking like a jerk have to do with people believing you?


The intersecting panels (Black Panther jumping away from Venom, Hawkeye shooting at Spidey while not even facing him) is plain stupid. Blind elementary school students with no hands know better than to do things like that.

This is all kinds of garbage. I'm so glad this is going to only be 5 issues and then (hopefully) someone else can jump in and (try to) save this sunken ship.

Reading v1 and v2 of the Ultimates and then coming down to v3 is like.... I'm in withdrawal right now.

I feel like I've been flying in a private jet all my life and now I have to walk barefoot, in the snow, for 10 miles. Daily.


Rating : -11/10


I'm starting a petition for this to be written out of continuity.

[Desmodus]

Well dialogue is pretty damn important, one of the most significant factors in creating a story even. I'd say it's a matter or whether people are still hung up on the Millar run or a run in which the Ultimates was good.

I'd go with either over this...

Yeah. I'm not saying the dialogue was good. so your point is moot.

[rwsmith]

This was so bad that not even a guest-appearance by Wolverine at the end could salvage it. Joe Mad is completely wasted on this garbage. He should've done an arc of New Avengers with Bendis.

[bulbasteve]

This is best interpreted as a series of beautiful images that may or may not have anything to do with one another. When the Brotherhood showed up--WOW, what a beautiful page. Then I noticed that Joeb had some dialogue in there--YUCK. Can we please get a silent version of this arc, with better coloring for issue #1?

Actually it should be pencils only, go to http://www.joemadfan.com they got a bunch of the penciled pages, which is like a million times better than it with coloring.

[Maestro]

To all the Loeb haters, I got two words for ya:

http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/1769/ultimates3bb2.jpg

[ThePhenom]

Yeah. I'm not saying the dialogue was good. so your point is moot.

Precisely was I was saying, you are acting like people are being overly critical but you even go on to say that you don't think the dialogue is excusable, I then said that it's a vital part of it and THUS a reason that people are being so critical.

Think before you write hey? If anything this type of fallacy in arguing is the thing to make a point invalid.

[Prime24]

Just went through a few issues of Ultimates 2. I think what most fans miss is the heavy amount of dialogue that Millar wrote. But loeb already stated in several interviews that millar's plot often involved a lot of dialogue before his usual wide-screen cinema style action. Loeb on the other hand explained he'd rather action before dialogue. I think fans also miss the triskelion, fury and all the politics involved and that is the "Ultimates" feel that is currently missing.
The team living in Stark's mansion makes it feel too 616-ish.
With those exceptions honestly i think Loeb's doing a pretty good job. So far he's been able to use a ton of characters in two issues in pretty good scenes. Everyone praises Millar like he's some god but Mark Milar's characterization of characters wasn't always the best. Everyone sounded rather similar especially in action scenes with witty remarks; the heroes in particular.I believe all will be explained including Spidey and venom's akward inclusion into the series.
Again Loeb is being crucified for cheesy dialogue but I think everyone is really upset about Thor. Wasp,Hawkeye, valkyrie, Quicksilver have been pretty cool. Cap and Iron man need better dialogue though.
Joe Mad's art is AWESOME. But i'm so mad at him for making everyone look like the 616 avengers and they are always in costumes.
All in all not bad. it will definitely read better as a trade. Guys should cut Loeb some slack. The expectations on the book are too much. Ultimates is arguably the best series of the decade and whoever followed mark Millar had incredibly big shoes to fill

[Young Avenger]

This is all kinds of garbage. I'm so glad this is going to only be 5 issues and then (hopefully) someone else can jump in and (try to) save this sunken ship.

Loeb is also writing Ultimates 4. Gonna wait until Ultimates 5.

[Dr. Chaos]

To all the Loeb haters, I got two words for ya:

http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/1769/ultimates3bb2.jpg
**** yeah!

Lame catchphrases from the 90s rule.

[ThePhenom]

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f244/Andely/DX_SUCK_IT__ID_by_D_Generation_X.jpg

I guess Sabretooth was played by a wrestler (of sorts) in X-Men.

[Omega Alpha]

If this was a movie, it would be one of those cheap (though, of course, with a budget over $100 million) blockbusters with lots of CGI which are only a vehicle to promote Will Smith, Angelina Jolie, or whoever is the star, including French Connection-wannabe car chases, lots of explosions and deaths, one hot chick in a scene almost completely naked, several jokes that have no appeal to someone with an I.Q. of three digits, dialog seemingly written by a 13 year old with low grades in English, etc.

Since this is a comic, this is one of those cheap books designed only to promote the writer, with lots of endless fights, , cheap deaths and other shock value tactics, several hot chicks almost in very tight uniforms, several jokes that have no appeal to someone with an I.Q. of three digits, dialog seemingly written by a 13 year old with low grades in English, etc.

[Brian M.]

If this was a movie, it would be one of those cheap (though, of course, with a budget over $100 million) blockbusters with lots of CGI which are only a vehicle to promote Will Smith, Angelina Jolie, or whoever is the star, including French Connection-wannabe car chases, lots of explosions and deaths, one hot chick in a scene almost completely naked, several jokes that have no appeal to someone with an I.Q. of three digits, dialog seemingly written by a 13 year old with low grades in English, etc.

Since this is a comic, this is one of those cheap books designed only to promote the writer, with lots of endless fights, , cheap deaths and other shock value tactics, several hot chicks almost in very tight uniforms, several jokes that have no appeal to someone with an I.Q. of three digits, dialog seemingly written by a 13 year old with low grades in English, etc.

You mean one of those movies that makes millions of millions of dollars?

Give me Transformers over Atonement anyday.

[Desmodus]

Precisely was I was saying, you are acting like people are being overly critical but you even go on to say that you don't think the dialogue is excusable, I then said that it's a vital part of it and THUS a reason that people are being so critical.

Think before you write hey? If anything this type of fallacy in arguing is the thing to make a point invalid.

Actually I was saying people were jumping to conclusions about how Loeb has killed the franchise without even waiting for the arc to finish. I wasn't saying they were being overly critical at all.

The point I made about the dialogue was separate. This might help you;

Everyone has a right to an opinion, but it appears story arc conclusions aren't just being jumped to, they're being stomped all over, repeatedly, by readers still hung up on the Millar/Hitch run.

Can't make an excuse for the dialogue, however.

See the words in bold? Thats what I was referring to. You said that dialogue plays a big part in an arc and while I agree with that, the fact that I was referring to the arc as a whole means that your point is moot until the last issue.

So how about you think before you write, hey?

[prodigy]

I think the issue we should all be focusing on here is...


WHERE IS THAT ONE ZARDA CHICK FROM SUPREME POWER WHO WENT WITH THEM TO THE ULTIMATE U!?!?!?!?

Anyone else remember Ultimate Power?

[ThePhenom]

I think the issue we should all be focusing on here is...


WHERE IS THAT ONE ZARDA CHICK FROM SUPREME POWER WHO WENT WITH THEM TO THE ULTIMATE U!?!?!?!?

Anyone else remember Ultimate Power?

It would be truly sad if she were the 'she'.

I'd like to see an arc or mini or something with Danvers attempting to deal with her recon in their world, a good reason to give Danvers and Mahr Vell a good showing.

[CyberCoyote]

You mean one of those movies that makes millions of millions of dollars?

Give me Transformers over Atonement anyday.

Well, 29 days out of 30 :) Aside from leaving SpiderMan in the grass to be sodomized by a roaming gang I got a kick out of the issue. Is it a great comic? No. Does it spit on whatever Millar had established? Maybe, but I got tired of his version of these guys about two thirds of the way in the first volume.

This is just stupid-fun. I'll keep collecting it as long as it stays looking so cool and as long as a tweeting bird doesn't fly by and distract me. If the bird comes, no big loss, I guess. Until then I'll read it with blinders on (it's only got a few issues left anyway, right?)

[cyko]

Wanted to keep my opinions seperate, but HORRENDOUS issue. The worst issue I've ever read in the history of Ultimate comics (and I've read Kirkman's whole run). I was staying optimistic about the title and refused to drop it rather wanting to wait it out but this issue really is starting to push that.

Loeb's excuse for exposition was just irritating (show, don't tell :rolleyes:), having everything stated so blatantly clearly just excusing the fact he's too arrogant to stick with anything that's been established so far. His potrayal of every character is starting to deviate even further from issue one.

The lack of logic in a lot of parts was tiresome, mostly citing why Hawkeye would go after Spider-Man due to Venom's actions and accuse him of being a part of it. It's also nice to know that instead of reading any Ultimate comics before (hell even Wiki-ing them) he just chooses to assume it's all pretty 616. Madrox being his codename is a nit to pick but most Ultimate writers have some awareness of what's going on around them.

Some good points though, Mad's art was pretty good but I think he stuck the skull on Mystique when she doesn't have it in UU (but I may be wrong) and I have the knowledge that Loeb will eventually be off the book at least.

I feel bad for Kirkman, he worked so hard for years to make the worst ultimate run ever and then Loeb just comes along and outdoes him within 2 issues.

[Nate Palm]

And the Ultimates plane has been driven nose first straight into the ground. Nice work there Loeb.

[Beast]

You mean one of those movies that makes millions of millions of dollars?

Give me Transformers over Atonement anyday.
Exactly. Sometimes popcorn entertainment can be fun. I know this is.

[Joe Franklin]

I buy this book because of Joe Mad so that's what I'm going to talk about.


Same here. I don't care about the story at all, the best action in motion comic book artist of all time is drawing this version of the Ultimates, and this is why I love it so much. Bring on the bad characterization and dialog, as long as Joe Mad gets to draw it, I'm a happy man.:cool:

[desanth]

I think the issue we should all be focusing on here is...


WHERE IS THAT ONE ZARDA CHICK FROM SUPREME POWER WHO WENT WITH THEM TO THE ULTIMATE U!?!?!?!?

Anyone else remember Ultimate Power?

Well Loeb doesn't care much about continuity it seems, maybe he even wrote out what he wrote in a short while ago.

Well, 29 days out of 30 :) Aside from leaving SpiderMan in the grass to be sodomized by a roaming gang I got a kick out of the issue. Is it a great comic? No.

Funniest part is, Spidey is still aware of his surroundings.. maybe Loeb can redeem himself by having a Spidey rape scene with some funny Spidey dialogue. Well it wouldn't be redeeming as much as it'd be remembered forever, and truly kill off the Ultimate Universe. Afterall, the only truly quality Ultimate title is USM(UFF is alright but doesn't have as much as a draw) and raping Spidey would mess him up for good.

I feel bad for Kirkman, he worked so hard for years to make the worst ultimate run ever and then Loeb just comes along and outdoes him within 2 issues.

It is true, Kirkman's dialogue and characterization on UXM is more UU than Loeb's junk.

And the Ultimates plane has been driven nose first straight into the ground. Nice work there Loeb.

Yes.

Exactly. Sometimes popcorn entertainment can be fun. I know this is.

Eh, I disagree with you when it comes to comics. This seemed so poorly set up.

[Will.S]

I think the issue we should all be focusing on here is...


WHERE IS THAT ONE ZARDA CHICK FROM SUPREME POWER WHO WENT WITH THEM TO THE ULTIMATE U!?!?!?!?

Anyone else remember Ultimate Power?
She's still expected to show up, Loeb mentioned her in the recent podcast with him.

Regarding this issue, I did enjoy it due to the art and the Magneto/Quicksilver parts were strong but I will concur that the dialogue and stuff like Hawkeye confronting Spider-Man because of his past with Venom were definitely dumb set ups for the action scenes.

As people pointed out dialogue like:

Hawkeye: "Every time I hear a gunshot it takes me back to my family"
Valkyrie: "Listen you bitch, I knew a girl like you in high school...."
Captain America: "If there'd been a lady present, I'd make so that you'd never utter a word again."

Are the groan inducing types of things that stood out to me. I mean ok the Cap thing sort of jives with the way Millar wrote Cap's attitudes towards woman and profanity and such but it still felt I dunno.....forced I guess? I did find it funny that Hawkeye just goes "C'mon you sons of bitches!" in front of Cap after that whole thing with Creed though.

Unfortunately the reasoning for Thor's Asgardian speech patterns were on the weak side, I expected a better reason for it than "I was trying to fit in and now I'm not". I also don't know why Tony is all he sudden mourning for Black Widow again, I was under the impression that he got over her in the last volume (and rather quickly I might add). I'd personally like to see more Iron Man on the book myself, what we got here was cool but Iron Man's involvement feels too cut back lately.

I liked Loeb's Spider-Man, added Ultimates group action, and the use of the Brotherhood villains here. I also liked the nod to the confrontation Pietro and Wanda had with Mags in Ultimate War. Joe Mad's art is AWESOME, I'm such a sucker for it although his side profile faces could use work. LOVED Lichtner's colors again, they were a marked improvement from last issues darker printed colors.

Anyway I think it's melodramatic to say that Loeb destroyed the book. The first two volumes aren't non-existent or retconned because of this but at the same time I thought that Loeb's first issue read much better than this second one which makes this book feels much more dumbed down.

6/10

[MrPunch0]

To all the Loeb haters, I got two words for ya:

http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/1769/ultimates3bb2.jpg

Yup - that quote/page pretty much sums up how I feel about this title.

I was one of the few who patiently waited for every issue of Ultimates and loved everything that Millar and Hitch threw at us.

Loeb has pretty much achieved the exact opposite. And Joe Mad sure isn't helping him much.

Anyone know where I can send these two issues to request my money back? I won't even ask to be paid for pain and suffering. ;)

[prodigy]

Joe Madureira is a really great artist but I don't think he's meant for an Ultimate book. His stuff is just too Saturday-morning-cartoon-y. Like Superman flying in outer space fighting alien monsters or something. His art just reeks of "This stuff was meant for 6 year olds."

And why is Wasp suddenly leading the team instead of Cap???

[Robo Ape]

Much better than the first issue, but the art is still bad. Still too dark & muddy for my tastes.

[steve2275]

shessh
we got more haters here than a kkk rally

[ThePhenom]

Actually I was saying people were jumping to conclusions about how Loeb has killed the franchise without even waiting for the arc to finish. I wasn't saying they were being overly critical at all.

The point I made about the dialogue was separate. This might help you;



See the words in bold? Thats what I was referring to. You said that dialogue plays a big part in an arc and while I agree with that, the fact that I was referring to the arc as a whole means that your point is moot until the last issue.

So how about you think before you write, hey?

It's all about the parts to a whole, people have been mostly chastising individual issues, but yes I guess they are jumping to conclusions about the quality of the story within the arc itself. Fair point.

But generally people also look at this logically, and see two bad issues as a pattern that will continue, but I won't jump to any absolute conclusions until the arc is completely finished. I'm willing to go out on a limb and guess that there will be just as many naysayers when it finishes, but whatever.

And kudos, on how condascending bold lettering can be :rolleyes: .

[MNM]

The Thor part about his speech was so LAME.


People complain that Thor was speaking how he was with no explanation. An explanation is given, and people still complain.

Loved this issue. I said it about issue one, and I shall say it about issue 2, I am enjoying reading these so much more than I did Millar's Ultimates.

[rwsmith]

shessh
we got more haters here than a kkk rally

Sorry. I normally try not to be a whiny, bitchy fanboy, but this issue was just so bad IMO. Mainly it was the dialogue, but the story itself was pretty cookie-cutter too (the Brotherhood attacks, fights the Ultimates, takes Wanda's body and leaves). And what, exactly, was the point of Hawkeye fighting Spider-man in the park? Pretty gratuitous guest-appearance if you ask me. At least Wolverine seems to have something to do with the overall plot.

No, I didn't like it at all. Loeb can do better than this. Mad's pencils were freakin' amazing, though. I just wish that he was drawing a five-issue arc with Bendis on New Avengers instead. Would've worked out perfectly while Yu is off doing Secret Invasion.

Just my $.02, though. For those of you who enjoyed it, more power to ya.

[static]

i think this is the only time ive ever gone out of my way to type about a book negativly...but this is soooo damn bad i cant help it!!! the best way to describe the dialouge was that it was "bad fan fiction", the art looked like a bad air brushed tshirt you see people doing in a kisok in the mall...this is an utter disgrace to the brilliance of Ult 1 and 2....two of the best series in the last 20 yrs....

damn and i thought Secret Wars II was a slap to the original...

i swear to god i am removing this book from my mental continuity of the Ultimates entirely....it isnt happening ....

[desanth]

Ok, my unwanted review(I'll review the writing then the art, since its probably best that way):

Loeb's writing - The dialogue is horrible; I think everyone agrees on that. It seems forced, like the characters wouldn't really say these things or at least not so cornily. The few explanations we get for differences between Ultimates 2 and Ultimates 3 are given like bulls in a chinashop; it seems more or less they are just given so people won't ask/complain about the changes. I think the next issue will have a page of Wasp just randomly telling people that she got facial reconstruction surgery so she doesn't look asian in the next issue, that Pym got out of jail because he was pardoned by the president, etc.

For people saying not to complain until the last issue, the above complaints don't hinge or truly relate to the whole series as an arc but are rather stand alone subjects. The plot as a whole isn't bad, its just the overall execution that makes it seem lacking. A mysterious sex-tape is released trying to discredit the Ultimates, Venom goes on a rampage looking for a woman and promptly is defeated, a red herring is formed when Cap/Hawkeye make comments on Wanda and then she mysteriously dies, Pym ODs oddly/mysteriously; Hawkeye goes looking for a missing comrade and tries questioning Spiderman through unconstitutional/insane methods, the Brotherhood distract the Ultimates as Magneto and Quicksilver come to an understanding.

Mad's Art - That's what it is people, art. It looks great. The first picture of the Brotherhood is awesome, Creed and Mystique mostly, the others get in the way for me. The people I like Mad drawing: Mystique, Spidey, Wasp, Quicksilver, and Wanda. People I don't particularly like Mad drawing(just cuz they look so different from Hitch's): Cap, Hawkeye(just cuz he looks ridiculous in that costume), Blob, and Thor.
The storytelling that Mad's art should do is pretty harsh. To me its like there is something definitely missing there. Did he draw a whole bunch of images that tell the story well and they had to remove half of them to fit them in this comic? Otherwise he just lacks any storytelling ability through images or he drew these without a script. I like the former idea more than the latter.

Combined: The dialogue takes away from the drawing; its like Mad made a beautiful snow-angel and Loeb pissed in the snow next to it saying "Suck it!" There is little to no good storytelling going on, it might have been best to have Loeb come up with the idea for the story arc, have someone else write good dialogue for it, and extend the series from 5 to 10 comics so there is smoother flow with the art.

[Vapour Trail]

"It's weird how everyone is wondering how I got my Val powers"

"Hey Thor, why do you talk all Shakespearian now?"

"Every time I hear a gun shot, I'm reminded of my wife, my kids..."

"hey Patriot, SUCK IT!"

[Omega Alpha]

You mean one of those movies that makes millions of millions of dollars?


Yeah, one of those crappy movies that make millions of dollars and are forgotten in six months. Loeb is the worse writer in the medium to sell a lot, he's the Michael Bay of comics. If I want a blockbuster, I'll take a Spielberg or Peter Jackson (or Millar, Bendis, etc), thank you very much.

[MaxofSteel]

I won't add to the complaints already said, But I will say my biggest gripe with this run mainly lies with the changes made to Ultimate Thor. I can deal with the other stuff - in fact I don't really mind the other changes at all (with the exception of Ironman's new armor) - but the fact that Thor's been given his 616 Thorspeak, Mjolnir, etc are changes I highly disagree with.

And I have to say that Valkyrie is probably the most irriating character I've ever read. "Tee-hee. I thinketh it cuteth". Do not want. :mad:

The art is amazing however.

[Ragnorok64]

I think this issue was better than the last one. Though attacking Spider-Man to find out if he had anything to do with Venom is monumentally stupid. Also, Cap would not have just left him there. We know Ultimate Cap is kind of a jerk but he wouldn't just leave Spider-Man out in the cold for 20 minutes. I figure Valkyrie will die somehow before this is all over.

[Uproar]

Just wanted to point out the ad for Fantastic Four #554 to quote " From the critically acclaimed creative team that brought you The Ultimates and Ultimates 2" It's good of marvel to remind us how good this book once was. Felt it was a little ironic to read this ad.

[Beast]

Just wanted to point out the ad for Fantastic Four #554 to quote " From the critically acclaimed creative team that brought you The Ultimates and Ultimates 2" It's good of marvel to remind us how good this book once was. Felt it was a little ironic to read this ad.
That's not Ironic.

[edhopper]

I think it's really clear that this guy has more raw talent than almost any comic artist ever. He's really a prodigy and savant. He could flat out out-draw anyone in a head to head poster competition. The immensely sad thing is that he's never really honed his storytelling skills. Maybe his sort of inborn talent doesn't lend itself to panel-to-panel storytelling, but I think part of the problem is simply that he's never worked with any great writers who could sort of show him the way. (I don't know if he went to any comic art school, but I assume he didn't. He seems completely self-taught.) He needed to work with someone like an Alan Moore who would give him a meticulously detailed script explaining everything in every panel, how things changed between panels, and WHY. He needed someone like that to really bust his ass and make him learn storytelling.
Mad's art is pretty good, the only decent thing about this POS of a comic. But dude, talk about over the top statements! Mad is so far from having the most "raw talent" of any comic artist ever (Kirby, Frazetta, Adams, Buscema, Lee....he even pales compared to Hitch). And part of being a comic artist is telling a story. If you think he has just the best raw drawing talent ever, again, not even close. He wouldn't make the list.
Don't get me wrong, I like his stuff. But please don't use his name in a sentence that deals with greatest ever, it just don't belong.

[Will.S]

Yeah, one of those crappy movies that make millions of dollars and are forgotten in six months. Loeb is the worse writer in the medium to sell a lot, he's the Michael Bay of comics.
While his Ultimates isn't that great, I certainly wouldn't go that far.

The guy has done some terrific work over the years with the Color Marvel books (Daredevil Yellow, Spider-Man Blue etc.), Superman/Batman (most of it) Batman, and the current Hulk book is off to a good start.

[Mister Mets]

It was all right. A massive improvement over the first part.
Posted a review on the Comic Crypt. (http://thecomiccrypt.com/viewtopic.php?t=5280)

[Toboe]

Although certainly an improvement from the first issue, this still suffers from Loeb's terrible excuse for a plot. It feels like some bad fanfic, with many random events one after the other, most left unfinished. I was shocked with how terrible and unappropiate some of the dialogue is.

"Maybe every time I hear a gunshot it takes right back to when my family... mi kids..." That line might've worked pretty well, if Hawkeye had not been saying that in the middle of a freaking battle while he's shooting guns himself!

The Spider-Man part was just pointless, and the search for the Balck Panther is just extremely silly. Loeb's excuse for Thor and Valkyre's speech pattern is just laughable and pathetic.

The battle with the Brotherhood was kind of fun, though. I love the impact the release of the sex tape has had on Tony, and how Mystique tricks him with it. At least the Brotherhood was used pretty well and it wasn't as bad as the battle with Venom. I also liked how Magneto and Quicksilver's relationship is handled, I'm intrigued by this.

Mad's art was fantastic, but his storytelling is flawed form time to time. As rwsmith said, I feel like he'd be better off with Bendis on either Avengers title than having his talent wasted on this.

[Uproar]

That's not Ironic.

Fair cop. I should have put my point in better context, what i meant to write was that the ad for ff 554 was in Ultimates 3.2, so while reading that Marvel are proud of how the book was once acclaimed, yet they still are allowing Loeb to undo all of this achievement by producing a below average book.

[sherlockbones]

This issue was much better. It felt like a decent Ultimates issue. The art, b/c it was so dark, was so much more enjoyable. Loved the fight scenes.

no, it felt like a fanfic festival so far.
while the first 2 volumes felt like a good thriller, this is child´s play with gore

[steve2275]

For those of you who enjoyed it, more power to ya.
hey thanks :p

[worstblogever]

Cameo by the Ultron robots in this issue. One of them did have a weird fascination with Wanda back in Ultimates 2.

Just saying... maybe there's some misdirection with Venom and the Brotherhood here...

[DeadXMan]

Yeah, one of those crappy movies that make millions of dollars and are forgotten in six months. Loeb is the worse writer in the medium to sell a lot, he's the Michael Bay of comics. If I want a blockbuster, I'll take a Spielberg or Peter Jackson (or Millar, Bendis, etc), thank you very much.

sooo you want comics of people walking?

[Uproar]

Cameo by the Ultron robots in this issue. One of them did have a weird fascination with Wanda back in Ultimates 2.

Just saying... maybe there's some misdirection with Venom and the Brotherhood here...

I've been thinking about this too, considering that it's Wanda and Pym that were assassinated/O.D.ed in issue one it would lead me to believe that it is the lead in to Ultimate Ultron.

[Beast]

Cameo by the Ultron robots in this issue. One of them did have a weird fascination with Wanda back in Ultimates 2.

Just saying... maybe there's some misdirection with Venom and the Brotherhood here...
Yeah, I've been toying with that idea also. What if we're getting something similar to Ultron in the 616 for this storyarc. Maybe Ultron copied Hank Pym's brain patterns for himself, and then attempted to kill him. And then copied Scarlet Witch's brain patterns for his bride... Ultimate Jocasta. Then succeeded in killing her. :D

[Slyfer]

The dialogue was so simplistic even MARVEL ADVENTURES seemed to be more exciting and gripping, regardless the story seem to be moving along but it still feels incoherent.

Again the Script: -

"SUCK IT!" what the hell..........

I Will say this JOE MAD's Art is the only reason this book even leaves the shelves. DAMN I love it, but I was surprised that the Brotherhood had no idea who killed Wanda. Maybe its Ultron who is controlling the reins behind the scence. I wonder if Leob can redeem himself with Issue number 3 :(

[CyberCoyote]

On speech patterns for Thor: Old Norsemen didn't talk like that ANYWAY, at least Loeb gives some stupid explanation. Have we ever gotten any reasoning for 616 Norse Gods using Shakespearean English?

I don't think the plot's all THAT thin, we don't know whats going on. That's the whole point. Who shot her, are the murder and the overdose tied? What the heck did happen to the Panther, most characters get thrown off panel then come running back.

My guess, the same group that'll rape Parker in the Park had their way with the Panther when he was unconscious :) One of the gang is a Mutant and absorbs powers from supers through their colon and is out to take advantage of heroes everywhere. Okay, that's a joke, don't hate on me :)

[Brian M.]

Yeah, I've been toying with that idea also. What if we're getting something similar to Ultron in the 616 for this storyarc. Maybe Ultron copied Hank Pym's brain patterns for himself, and then attempted to kill him. And then copied Scarlet Witch's brain patterns for his bride... Ultimate Jocasta. Then succeeded in killing her. :D

That actually isn't a bad idea.

The robot got jealous of Peitro so he killed Wanda...illogical at first, but how many times has a wife been killed becuase the husband thought the wife was doing someone else?

[carabas]

Have we ever gotten any reasoning for 616 Norse Gods using Shakespearean English?It's not Shakespearian English, but biblical English.
Thou shalt not bow down unto them, nor serve them; for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God,

Stan Lee figured that's how a god expresses himself. Kinda seems way out of character for new age Jesus Ultimate Thor to talk like that regardles.

[Ultimate Interpol]

I see that this book went from political satire to a murder mystery. I'm actually a fan of mysteries and this book is good to me. One thing is, it's actually on time (or actually it was delayed a week, but at least it wasn't tossed to a couple on months).

The first issue was the actual murder, along with some clues (Venom saying where is she, and Jan talking about all the Ultimates)
The second issue is complications and more clues (How did the brotherhood even know of wanda's death? Do they have a telepath or was the news that rapid?)
From what we know about the third issue is it's about the origin of wanda and pietro, this will be the investigation issue.
Loeb is following a rather normal pursuit in a mystery. All we really know is that both mutants are missing from the final cover.

Honestly I believe the botherhood is behind it all. Loreilei could have told Pym to kill himself and told Hawkeye to assassanate wanda. The reason hank died at all is still a mystery to me. Magneto probably willing to sacrifice them to upbring a war between mutants and humans.

[Blader5489]

Hank isn't dead.

[Gnarl]

It's not Shakespearian English, but biblical English.
Say what?

The bible was written in Arameic, I believe. If anything, Thor should speak old Norse.

[killerbass]

Ultimates and Ultimates 2 are two of my favorite comics ever.

This is just awful. Plenty of other posters have made all of my points, so I won't bore you by repeating them.

I cannot imagine what's going on at the Marvel Ultimate office. Somebody should check Ralph Macchio's desk. They might have a "Weekend At Bernie's" situation to attend to...

:-D

--Tom

[carabas]

Say what?

The bible was written in Arameic.I'm not entirely sure about this, but I think someone got around translating it into English at some point.

[Scorpion13]

I see that this book went from political satire to a murder mystery.....

I was just wondering, what, exactly, was the first 2 Ultimates volumes satirizing?

I can easily see it being politically critical. It was totally the intent, but satirical? People say that, but I dont see it.

[spiderman_rj]

I'm starting a petition for this to be written out of continuity.

i'm with you .

[Scorpion13]

Ignored?

No.

Retconned to hell and back?

You better believe it.

Im calling it right now.

[Beast]

Ignored?

No.

Retconned to hell and back?

You better believe it.

Im calling it right now.
Yeah. Jeph Loeb who's in charge of the Ultimateverse is going to retcon his own best-selling book.

Welcome to fantasy land.

[Scorpion13]

Yeah. Jeph Loeb who's in charge of the Ultimateverse is going to retcon his own best-selling book.

Welcome to fantasy land.

Uh-huh.

How long do you think thatll be, though? He aint sticking around forever.

And when he's gone, so will his tripe.

[Beast]

Uh-huh.

How long do you think thatll be, though? He aint sticking around forever.

And when he's gone, so will his tripe.
Long enough to destroy the current landscape of the Ultimateverse with Ultimatum.

Trust me, his stuff isn't going anywhere.

[Scorpion13]

Long enough to destroy the current landscape of the Ultimateverse with Ultimatum.

Trust me, his stuff isn't going anywhere.

Until someone else retcons it.

Its going to happen.

I can see this as the beginning of the loads of continuity problems finding their ways into the Ultimate Universe.

[Beast]

Until someone else retcons it.

Its going to happen.

I can see this as the beginning of the loads of continuity problems finding their ways into the Ultimate Universe.
You can wish in one hand and crap and the other. And see which one piles up first.

What continuity problems are you talking about?

[pariah-1972]

Wow ok i guess this didn't seem as bad as the first one cause i was sort of expecting it to be bad.
i think some of the problems i wouldn't have noticed if other people didn't bring it up.
saying that i felt like this issue wasn't as offensively bad as the first one but i'm not saying it was anywhere close to good, but somehow i seemed to have grown used to it kinda.

the art is pretty but theres a lot of story telling gafes thats pretty weird to see considering how long they have had to make this book work.

but alas i will probably be following this to its conclusion:o

[Scorpion13]

You can wish in one hand and crap and the other. And see which one piles up first.

What continuity problems are you talking about?


What Im talking about is the fact that there is about 40's years of retcons and wacky continuity going on with 616. The Ultimate Universe's whole point was to put out a fresh, new spin on the whole concept.

Loeb's garbage will be retconned. Its happened countless times before. But after all the damage is done, fixing it is going to begin the tangling of the whole universe's continuity....which is what they were trying to get away from in the first place.

[Gnarl]

I'm not entirely sure about this, but I think someone got around translating it into English at some point.

At quite a number of points, actually. What does that have to do with Thor?

[ZT4]

All they have to say is Loeb's run is based around a comic in the Ultimate Universe, but it's from some crazy basement-dweller who was formerly part of SHIELD (hence he knows identitys) who's cracked under pressure and is writing a comic to deal with his overexaggerations.

He tries to pitch it, and he's arrested. Bingo.

...And that won't happen unless Miller whistles over to it and caps Loeb in the skull.

[Vapour Trail]

Hey doesn't Sabertooth have 4 adamantium claws instead of fingernails?

And wasn't Ultimate Iron Man's armour so bad ass and full of weapons he needed a team of techs to get him into it?

I thought that made it more realistic and cool.

And I'm glad Ultimate Captain America got rid of that super practical helmet Hitch gave him in volume 2 and reverted back to the much more practical CLOTH helmet. Most soldiers would gladly make the move from helmet to cloth mask.

Please dumb this volume down a bit more Loeb... my 8 year old brother is almost there.

[desanth]

Hey doesn't Sabertooth have 4 adamantium claws instead of fingernails?

And wasn't Ultimate Iron Man's armour so bad ass and full of weapons he needed a team of techs to get him into it?

I thought that made it more realistic and cool.

And I'm glad Ultimate Captain America got rid of that super practical helmet Hitch gave him in volume 2 and reverted back to the much more practical CLOTH helmet. Most soldiers would gladly make the move from helmet to cloth mask.

Please dumb this volume down a bit more Loeb... my 8 year old brother is almost there.

Well Sabretooth has 8 adamantium claws, 4 on each arm.
For UIM, I'll wait to see in Ultimate Human if they changed his suit there, if they didn't, I'll be happy(since I don't take Loeb's writing into true continuity, I'll just ignore it all!).
Maybe the cloth is not true cloth but armored shtuff. But yea, Cap looks odd with that cloth, makes him look like he's got a shaved head underneath there.

[Beast]

Hey doesn't Sabertooth have 4 adamantium claws instead of fingernails?
He also had his fingerclaws and teeth coated with Adamantium. See Ultimate X-Men.
And wasn't Ultimate Iron Man's armour so bad ass and full of weapons he needed a team of techs to get him into it?
It's a year later and he's paying for everything himself now without SHIELD funding the team. It's likely he's either refined the armor so it's lighter and easier to put on yourself. Or he's replaced the techs with an automated process. After all his armor was hooked up to something on the wall when we first saw it.
And I'm glad Ultimate Captain America got rid of that super practical helmet Hitch gave him in volume 2 and reverted back to the much more practical CLOTH helmet. Most soldiers would gladly make the move from helmet to cloth mask.

Please dumb this volume down a bit more Loeb... my 8 year old brother is almost there.
The entire team switched to something a bit more 'Superhero Based' after breaking away from SHIELD. I highly doubt that the mask is simply just cloth. Honestly, that's kinda nitpicky. :p

[MattXG]

Just went through a few issues of Ultimates 2. I think what most fans miss is the heavy amount of dialogue that Millar wrote. But loeb already stated in several interviews that millar's plot often involved a lot of dialogue before his usual wide-screen cinema style action. Loeb on the other hand explained he'd rather action before dialogue. I think fans also miss the triskelion, fury and all the politics involved and that is the "Ultimates" feel that is currently missing.
You got it.

There is NOTHING Loeb could do that would make the majority in here like the book. Nothing. They hated it as soon as it was announced. They hated it because Loeb isn't Millar and Ultimates 3 isn't Ultimates 2 or 1.....

I CAN'T stand that kind of mentality from comic readers....:(

[Vapour Trail]

I just thought the helmet was way cooler. Stop shrapnel or a small cal bullet. Could use it for headbutting someone. Can have a built in microphone so he can give the team directions. It seems like the thing a 21st century super soldier would have.

Or to put it more directly, if you turned on CNN tomorrow and the Pentagon unveiled a Super Soldier would you expect him to be equiped with a helmet or a mask?

Iron Man: Well the big armour seemed like it could hold missles and a whole mess of bullets which made it more real to me. Those big guns popped out of his fore arms. The thinner 616 armour can't have that stuff, just "lasers" etc. Which takes away from the realism of the original ultimate Iron Man design. But that's just my opinion.

[desanth]

I just thought the helmet was way cooler. Stop shrapnel or a small cal bullet. Could use it for headbutting someone. Can have a built in microphone so he can give the team directions. It seems like the thing a 21st century super soldier would have.

Iron Man: Well the big armour seemed like it could hold missles and a whole mess of bullets which made it more real to me. The thinner 616 armour can't have that stuff, just "lasers" etc. Which takes away from the realism of the original ultimate Iron Man design. But that's just my opinion.

Yea, I agree with you on how those things were cooler. I don't like the thin 616 armour look, I like the nice sleek Ultimate look. I like the Ultimate model more, probably gets better mileage too.

[prodigy]

The few explanations we get for differences between Ultimates 2 and Ultimates 3 are given like bulls in a chinashop; it seems more or less they are just given so people won't ask/complain about the changes. I think the next issue will have a page of Wasp just randomly telling people that she got facial reconstruction surgery so she doesn't look asian in the next issue, that Pym got out of jail because he was pardoned by the president, etc.
lol and to add insult to injury I wouldn't be surprised if I picked up the next issue and first thing I saw was Wasp breaking the fourth wall (a la the recap page in Cable & Deadpool) to address all these changes.

Or if they used the recap page to address this stuff altogether.

[carabas]

At quite a number of points, actually. What does that have to do with Thor?
*sigh* Recap time.
Have we ever gotten any reasoning for 616 Norse Gods using Shakespearean English?

It's not Shakespearian English, but biblical English.Because Stan Lee, god of comics to some, sleazy hack to others, figured gods ought to talk in biblical manner.

[ultimate hulk]

*sigh* Recap time.
[QUOT=CyberCoyote]Have we ever gotten any reasoning for 616 Norse Gods using Shakespearean English?

Because Stan Lee, god of comics to some, sleazy hack to others, figured gods ought to talk in biblical manner.[/QUOTE]

i'll go with sleazy hack.:D

[xarathos]

I was never into the Ultimates, so it's funny in the sense of a B-Movie. Just a big car accident that manages to entertain.

I wouldn't say it was a good as say Army of Darkness, but it's kind of dumb-fun.

[Scorpion13]

You got it.

There is NOTHING Loeb could do that would make the majority in here like the book. Nothing. They hated it as soon as it was announced. They hated it because Loeb isn't Millar and Ultimates 3 isn't Ultimates 2 or 1.....

I CAN'T stand that kind of mentality from comic readers....:(

:rolleyes:

Oh yeah. Its had nothing to do with the awful dialogue, incomprehensible and hackneyed story, massive changes to just about everything in the book with no explaination (and, if Thor is an example, the explanation is confusing and stupid).

We just hate Jeph Loeb. Because we're evil. At least, everyone who liked it seems to think so.

[CyberCoyote]

*sigh* Recap time.


Because Stan Lee, god of comics to some, sleazy hack to others, figured gods ought to talk in biblical manner.

Biblical English? I like that one. I know why Lee did it, just saying that I never knew if an in comics explanation was ever offered up.

[Scorpion13]

Biblical English? I like that one. I know why Lee did it, just saying that I never knew if an in comics explanation was ever offered up.

For why 616 Thor talks that way?

No, its just the way he talks. Thats all.

[hunter_peterson]

About Black Panther, remember when the Colonel was defeated? SHEILD took the body for research. You can find out more from a body when you can dissect it. Also they could narrow down the attributes that make a genetic structure accept the serum. And Cap most likely still works at SHIELD. He would have to vouch for Panther. So I say Black Panther is another Captain America style super soldier. Its implied he has enhanced senses, and Beast was surgiacally given those in Ultimate X-Men. Just my thoughts, now tell me yours.

[dreyga2000]

About Black Panther, remember when the Colonel was defeated? SHEILD took the body for research. You can find out more from a body when you can dissect it. Also they could narrow down the attributes that make a genetic structure accept the serum. And Cap most likely still works at SHIELD. He would have to vouch for Panther. So I say Black Panther is another Captain America style super soldier. Its implied he has enhanced senses, and Beast was surgiacally given those in Ultimate X-Men. Just my thoughts, now tell me yours.

Knowing Loeb it's quite possible the Panther is the Colonel...

[MrPunch0]

:rolleyes:

Oh yeah. Its had nothing to do with the awful dialogue, incomprehensible and hackneyed story, massive changes to just about everything in the book with no explaination (and, if Thor is an example, the explanation is confusing and stupid).

We just hate Jeph Loeb. Because we're evil. At least, everyone who liked it seems to think so.

Totally agree. I've liked quite a bit of what Loeb has written in the past.

And I love the Ultimates.

I am just very disappointed by the huge changes to characters, the lack of a plot, the horrible dialogue and the Image-esque art that's right out of 1993. (Though I could probably look past that if they had bothered to use an inker. Direct to color looks horrible on Mad's art.)

[Scorpion13]

Totally agree. I've liked quite a bit of what Loeb has written in the past.

And I love the Ultimates.

I am just very disappointed by the huge changes to characters, the lack of a plot, the horrible dialogue and the Image-esque art that's right out of 1993. (Though I could probably look past that if they had bothered to use an inker. Direct to color looks horrible on Mad's art.)

I know.

It looks like he did it in colored pencils.

[Joe Franklin]

There is NOTHING Loeb could do that would make the majority in here like the book. Nothing. They hated it as soon as it was announced. They hated it because Loeb isn't Millar and Ultimates 3 isn't Ultimates 2 or 1.....

I CAN'T stand that kind of mentality from comic readers....:(

It's no big deal to me, I understand this mentlity, and it's fine. I don't like the Justice League very much unless it's written BWA HAW HAW style by Giffen and DeMatteis for example. I have a built in bias towards the "serious" BIG 7 League. It's no big deal to have a bias towards a certain treatment of any particular fictional form of entertainment, we all do in one way or the other.:)

[sugarmanandrobin]

Hey, trust in Loeb. He may turn the Ultimates into crap, but I bet (or hope) that this will all come together nicely in the end.



Like an incestuous family reunion.

[Superbeast]

I'd rather have a good story and mediocre art like Preacher than a polished turd like this. If the new team couldn't follow the standard set for the book, they shouldn't have been given it. Jeph Loeb has never been a particularly great writer, his solutions usually involved "massive team ups = victory!" endings and we're seeing it now here with Spider-Man and Wolverine turning up in the first two issues.

What the Hell was that "yummm" when Thor kissed Valkyrie? This is meant to be set in a more real world setting but now people go yum when they get kissed? What the Hell is Hank Pym doing out of his scurity cell he was in at the end of Ultimates 2? How come Valkyrie is banging Thor now and since when did she become good enough to be on the team when last time we saw her she was in tears for BSing about being a martial arts expert after The Defenders messed up and Nighthawk got put in the hospital? In what issue did Black Widow wear the outfit Mystique morphed into? They make bullets encoded to people's DNA that can turn like heatseeking missiles now? How the Hell would Quicksilver even be able to figure that out on his own, wouldn't they need SHIELD or Stark Enterprises to analyse the bullet? Wouldn't Quicksilver have felt the pain of the bullet blowing a hole in his hand?

It doesn't seem like Loeb skim-read it best Vol 2, nor does he seem to care to give a shit about trying to make sense.

[Will.S]

On the other hand, it's nice to see an active and alive Captain America. Even if it's the Ultimate one.

[Xplicit Content]

I'm wondering what it will take for people to drop the book. I can understand the huge amount of backlash from readers following issue one, but it seems like people are still buying it. Are we going to be in for the same diatribes about how bad issue 5 is and how Loeb ruined the entire legacy of Ultimates in 3 months time? Just saying. :confused:

Those strictly buying for Joe Mad's art, feel free to disregard that. I'd still buy it too for that reason. But even with that said, it seems like the art isn't even safe (Between complaints of the colors and complaints of Mad's inability to tell a story with his art). I'm curious to see what the numbers for issue 2 will be.

I'm anxiously awaiting mine. I have a love/hate relationship with Marvel subscriptions. Sometimes they surprise me with an advance copy (last issue of Messiah CompleX), and other times I have to wait until the issue is old and dusty for everyone else before I get to read it.

[carabas]

I'm curious to see what the numbers for issue 2 will be.#2 was ordered some tim before #1 came out, and will show a 10-20% drop, like pretty much every single second issue ever. But I'm really anxious to see the numbers on issues 4 and 5, not to mention UIltimatum.

[Scorpion13]

I'm wondering what it will take for people to drop the book. I can understand the huge amount of backlash from readers following issue one, but it seems like people are still buying it. Are we going to be in for the same diatribes about how bad issue 5 is and how Loeb ruined the entire legacy of Ultimates in 3 months time? Just saying. :confused:


Nowadays, there are a lot of different ways to get to read a comic, besides buying it.

[Mr.EZ]

The new Ultimates series proves that Loeb's shit writing only appeals to the lowest common denominator and that my money is best spent elsewhere.

[MrPunch0]

I'm wondering what it will take for people to drop the book. I can understand the huge amount of backlash from readers following issue one, but it seems like people are still buying it. Are we going to be in for the same diatribes about how bad issue 5 is and how Loeb ruined the entire legacy of Ultimates in 3 months time? Just saying. :confused:

Those strictly buying for Joe Mad's art, feel free to disregard that. I'd still buy it too for that reason. But even with that said, it seems like the art isn't even safe (Between complaints of the colors and complaints of Mad's inability to tell a story with his art). I'm curious to see what the numbers for issue 2 will be.

I'm anxiously awaiting mine. I have a love/hate relationship with Marvel subscriptions. Sometimes they surprise me with an advance copy (last issue of Messiah CompleX), and other times I have to wait until the issue is old and dusty for everyone else before I get to read it.

I cancelled after issue one - but because of the way my LCS works I had to purchase #2.

[ThePhenom]

You got it.

There is NOTHING Loeb could do that would make the majority in here like the book. Nothing. They hated it as soon as it was announced. They hated it because Loeb isn't Millar and Ultimates 3 isn't Ultimates 2 or 1.....

I CAN'T stand that kind of mentality from comic readers....:(

Then theoretically Mike Carey and BKV could've never gotten the support they did on UFF and UXM respectively due to Mark Millar and... Mark Millar's acclaimed runs on both books.

Wow, the point fit better than I expected :o.

[wolp]

It's all Marvel's fault that Loeb is crapping on this book. If they didn't give him so much creative leeway and put in some Ultimate Universe continuity approval we wouldn't have this crapfest.

I mean they must have the Ultimates HC lying around in the UU offices? MAD could AT LEAST look over the costume designs and actually use current continuity which is less than 10 years old. It's not like they're dealing with decades of continuity. I could've read all related books in less than a day to get a feel for the Ultimate Universe. This is all Marvel's fault.

I would have preferred they given the reigns over to BMB or Ellis over Loeb any day.

PS. I really hope my rant wasn't fan boyish because I'm really not a hardcore comic book fan boy I just liked the costume designs and established continuity of the UU.

[wolp]

Then theoretically Mike Carey and BKV could've never gotten the support they did on UFF and UXM respectively due to Mark Millar and... Mark Millar's acclaimed runs on both books.

Wow, the point fit better than I expected :o.

I said i preferred BNB or Ellis but to be honest I don't really care who writes the book just as long as they kept the easy to follow open story lines and previous continuity intact. It's not hard to do since all the easy work is done for you.

[desanth]

I said i preferred BNB or Ellis but to be honest I don't really care who writes the book just as long as they kept the easy to follow open story lines and previous continuity intact. It's not hard to do since all the easy work is done for you.

Yea, Ellis is rocking Ultimate Human right now. Its great how he's keeping up with continuity and is giving quality UU stories that I've come to expect at least 33% of the time I read UU(This mostly comes from USM in recent times).

[KJ_81]

Another train wreck of an issue.
The only character depiction I'm enjoying is Hawkeye. After the events of Ultimates 2, his portrayal here works (for me).

I think Loeb just read the Hawkeye bits in Ultimates 1 and 2, and nothing else.

[ThePhenom]

Another train wreck of an issue.
The only character depiction I'm enjoying is Hawkeye. After the events of Ultimates 2, his portrayal here works (for me).

I think Loeb just read the Hawkeye bits in Ultimates 1 and 2, and nothing else.

What about the scene where Black Widow talks about Hawkeye's healthy respect for death. Sure, he would be heavily grieving but it kinda craps all over the greatness that was that scene.

[vitruvian]

Have we ever gotten any reasoning for 616 Norse Gods using Shakespearean English?

The real problem is, even if we accept that on principle, *Loeb doesn't do it right*. Mayhaps, indeed. Forsooth!

[Scorpion13]

The real problem is, even if we accept that on principle, *Loeb doesn't do it right*. Mayhaps, indeed. Forsooth!

I agree.

When written right, 616 Thor sounds like a old, pagan god.

Ultimate Thor now sounds like he should be in The Merchant of Venice.

[prodigy]

Hm. So who else hates the new Thor?

I personally would much rather prefer the new-age, ear pierced, beer drinking, super hippie with a hammer than this new guy.

And who else thinks that the doctor with the cane last issue was Donald Blake?

I'm guessing this explains why Valkyrie has powers now. The lame wannabe Defender was probably the civilian identity while this new powered chick is the Asgardian one.

[pariah-1972]

Hm. So who else hates the new Thor?

I personally would much rather prefer the new-age, ear pierced, beer drinking, super hippie with a hammer than this new guy.

And who else thinks that the doctor with the cane last issue was Donald Blake?

I'm guessing this explains why Valkyrie has powers now. The lame wannabe Defender was probably the civilian identity while this new powered chick is the Asgardian one.I think he was Don Blake but we don't know what he role he is going to play if any so far.

my guess is he fell in love with Valkyrie and hooked her up with powers via Odin.

[worstblogever]

Could Ultimate Black Panther be the Ultimate version of Isiah Bradley? It would explain why Cap vouches for him...

[carabas]

Just wondering... With most of the Ultimates having gotten a lot closer to their 616 countreparts, is there even any indication, or even possibility at all that the Black Panther isn't simply T'Challah, king of Wakanda?

[RodeoWearden]

Just wondering... With most of the Ultimates having gotten a lot closer to their 616 countreparts, is there even any indication, or even possibility at all that the Black Panther isn't simply T'Challah, king of Wakanda?

The only reason I think it isnt T'Challa is that the UU is generally (it used to be at least) much more modern and politically minded than the 616. And with all the recent foreign soil problems (the de-armament at the hands of the US, and then the invasion OF the US) I doubt they could justify the leader of a very strategically politcal country spending all his time with a US-based task force.

But then, if they are taking a cue from the 616, maybe the Panther is there to spy on them? But would that make much sense, seeing as to how they are not affiliated with US government anymore?

[Uproar]

What about this for a weird theory the Dr. most likely Blake is actually the secret identity of....Valkyrie. The first transexual superhero of the Ultimate universe. When Valkyrie hits his stick of the ground he turns into a 19 year old blonde. Thor likes She-males.:p

[carabas]

The only reason I think it isnt T'Challa is that the UU is generally (it used to be at least) much more modern and politically minded than the 616.You're not paying attention. Jeph frelling Loeb has gone on record and stated that all of the politics goes out the door and is replaced by what he calls 'good oldfashioned superhero stories' (but what the rest of the world calls 'early nineties Image crap').

[vitruvian]

Ultimate Thor now sounds like he should be in The Merchant of Venice.

Actually, a middle school production of same, where the students haven't really learned their lines.

Basically, the Shakespearean/King James Bible English is a passable shorthand in the comics medium for 'this guy has been around a long time and talks funny'. But in order for that to work, you need to be able to keep your thees and thous straight, which Loeb apparently cannot.

Of course, maybe the point is that Ultimate Thor *is too* a crazy rather than a real god (with Wanda-level powers of reality alteration for Loki and his hordes to manifest at the end of series 2), and his speech patterns are reflective of that.

Nah, too much credit.

[RodeoWearden]

You're not paying attention. Jeph frelling Loeb has gone on record and blah blah blah

Quit stepping on what I'm saying. I have no doubt Jeph is a moron in most poeple's eyes. But regardless of his style of storytelling, I'm going to go ahead and talk comics in a logical sense of reasoning. So, back to my point, do you think Black Panther could logically be introduced as T'Challa, monarch of Wakanda?

[Prime24]

I've been through dozens of websites and the reviews for ultimates 3 has been the same. everyone hates it. at this point i dont think us fans should consider it as a true sequel to hitch's and millar's masterpiece (ie 1 and 2).
I think we should look at it in the grand scheme of things with respect to where it's leading to; which is the Ultimatum event. The crossover should give the universe the jolt it needs to make the books interesting again. I hope after that Loeb is giving the boot from the ultimate universe seeing as he really isn't a long term-commitment-to-a-book kinda guy. He has already stated that Mcguiness won't be on board for Ultimates 4 anymore in his wordballoon interview. Now if only marvel has the good sense to strip the book from his hands and pass it on to an awesome creative team.

[carabas]

Quit stepping on what I'm saying. I have no doubt Jeph is a moron in most poeple's eyes. But regardless of his style of storytelling, I'm going to go ahead and talk comics in a logical sense of reasoning. So, back to my point, do you think Black Panther could logically be introduced as T'Challa, monarch of Wakanda?It could be done. But if it were done, it would be done with tons upon tons of media attention and such. Royalty does not join a superhero team without the world noticing, no matter how quiet they'd like to keep this.
Two of the most likely reasons this would be done is to
-show the world that the Ultimates are no longer the American military's lapdogs, and
-because despite what he says, Tony Stark is not actually made of money an can't support the Ultimates on his own indefinitely.

On the other hand, Asian women tend to stay Asian, people who get depressed from hearing gunfire don't switch their silent bow and arrow for a pair of handcannons, and one would hope that professionals don't leave their underage allie drugged out of his skull all alone in the middle of the night in some park in New York. Logic has no place in this book.

[RodeoWearden]

It could be done. But if it were done, it would be done with tons upon tons of media attention and such. Royalty does not join a superhero team without the world noticing, no matter how quiet they'd like to keep this.
Two of the most likely reasons this would be done is to
-show the world that the Ultimates are no longer the American military's lapdogs, and
-because despite what he says, Tony Stark is not actually made of money an can't support the Ultimates on his own indefinitely.

On the other hand, Asian women tend to stay Asian, people who get depressed from hearing gunfire don't switch their silent bow and arrow for a pair of handcannons, and one would hope that professionals don't leave their underage allie drugged out of his skull all alone in the middle of the night in some park in New York. Logic has no place in this book.


Well I guess you're right on that point. The book definately isnt making a lot of sense. Are we sure Wasp isnt Asian? I mean, yes, she doesnt look asian, but could that just be an art thing?

I hadnt thought of T'Challa helping fund the Ultimates. That would definately be a good reason.


I cant remember who said this first, but at some point somebody on this forum suggested that BP might actually be Cap in disguise. Given your reasoning that all logic is out the window, how likely is that possibility? :D

[carabas]

Are we sure Wasp isnt Asian? I mean, yes, she doesnt look asian, but could that just be an art thing?Loeb said in an interview that the matter of Janet's appearance would be addressed in a later issue. Other posters have said that he was joking, I suppose he might have been even though I didn't think he was.

[RodeoWearden]

There's just no way to do that tastefully. The are only a few possible options. Either Janet somehow ended up in somebody else's body (a la Psyloche), she got cosmetic surgury to appear caucasion (huh?) or ...
...
...
actually thats it. I cant think of any other reason. And both of those suck.

[Blader5489]

He has already stated that Mcguiness won't be on board for Ultimates 4 anymore in his wordballoon interview.

I thought Ultimates 4 was being scrapped altogether?

[pariah-1972]

There's just no way to do that tastefully. The are only a few possible options. Either Janet somehow ended up in somebody else's body (a la Psyloche), she got cosmetic surgury to appear caucasion (huh?) or ...
...
...
actually thats it. I cant think of any other reason. And both of those suck.There could have been some Retcon wave like the one Superboy did.

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

OMG, I recall saying the first that while nowhere near as good as Millar's work it wasn't that bad and I'd give it a chance, but...

Good God, this was just f****n terrible. A few cool lines here and there but, man, this was a mess.

Will only check the others to see if it *does* get worse. Hungh.

[Ultimate Interpol]

I've been through dozens of websites and the reviews for ultimates 3 has been the same. everyone hates it.

I want to see the sales charts for the upcoming issue see if the websites trullyh affect it.:D

[carabas]

I want to see the sales charts for the upcoming issue see if the websites trullyh affect it.:DIssue 2 (and probably 3 as well) has been ordered well before Issue 1 came out, and thus will probbaly just show the standard 10-20% drop for second issues.

[Ultimate Interpol]

Issue 2 (and probably 3 as well) has been ordered well before Issue 1 came out, and thus will probbaly just show the standard 10-20% drop for second issues.

Isn't that the standard for almost every book?
I remember Bendis stating in a wordballon podcast that almost all books are like that no matter how big the event.

[prodigy]

I hadnt thought of T'Challa helping fund the Ultimates. That would definately be a good reason.

Oh dear sweet Jesus no. You have no idea how much I would hate that.


First of all... Why do the Ultimates need ANY funding (this was a plothole I noticed back on Millar's run too)? The only person on the team I could see having any financial necesseties (I know that can't be spelled right) is Iron Man. The upkeep and maintenance on his suit can't be free.

Everybody else doesn't need to rely on anything for their powers. Hawkeye might need bullets and stuff but that's it.

[carabas]

Isn't that the standard for almost every book?
I remember Bendis stating in a wordballon podcast that almost all books are like that no matter how big the event.Yes, it is. No matter how big or how small the book, the second issue will suffer a standard 10-20% drop in sales. And it is extremely rare for these numbers to go back up again.

Now if issues four and five are still shedding readers at a pace in excess of 10% per issue, you have a problem. If there's any justice in the world, it'll be up to 40-50% by then, mayhaps causing Marvel to rethink who'll be writing Ultimates 4.

[carabas]

First of all... Why do the Ultimates need ANY funding (this was a plothole I noticed back on Millar's run too)? The only person on the team I could see having any financial necesseties (I know that can't be spelled right) is Iron Man. The upkeep and maintenance on his suit can't be free.
-high-tech headquarters don't grow on trees
-neither do teleporters, quinjest, or whatever else they'll be using to get around.
-they'll be needing PR, a legal team, another legal team...
-none of them work for a living. They need food, clothes, an internet connection, most of them are accostumed to being payed crazy money.
-any half-decent supersuit, even Hawkeye's, in the Ultimate Universe is likely to cost hundreds of thousands of dollars, millions if it needs to change size or withstand MACH 10.
-if they're no longer reliant on SHIELD, they're going to need their own intelligence service if they down't want to stick to beating up the villains that happen to walk into their living room.

[prodigy]

-high-tech headquarters don't grow on trees
-neither do teleporters, quinjest, or whatever else they'll be using to get around.
-they'll be needing PR, a legal team, another legal team...
-none of them work for a living. They need food, clothes, an internet connection, most of them are accostumed to being payed crazy money.
-any half-decent supersuit, even Hawkeye's, in the Ultimate Universe is likely to cost hundreds of thousands of dollars, millions if it needs to change size or withstand MACH 10.
-if they're no longer reliant on SHIELD, they're going to need their own intelligence service if they down't want to stick to beating up the villains that happen to walk into their living room.

1. Their high-tech headquarters is already done and made and paid for. Actually... It's BEEN made for a while. It's Stark's house. It's not like they have to sweat over building costs or anything. How can a teleporter cost anything other than a steep electric bill?

2. Legal teams for what? They may not be part of SHIELD but I'm positive they're still government sanctioned. And even so, legal teams only send you a bill each time, and only when they're needed. Spider-Man doesn't have, nor need a legal team. Neither did the Ultimate Defenders.

3. There are only 10 members of the team - and two just apparently left. Food, clothes, and whatever else are the only things I can think that they would reasonably need. That's it. I'd say... It should realistically only cost $5 million (at the absolute most) to cover all of that.

4. Um. No. We're talking spandex here... Not fur made out of diamonds. A tailor for the entire team should in no way cost more than $50,000. They're not gonna withstand Mach 10. When did they ever do that?

5. Tony Stark has access to SHIELD's database.

Edit : All they need for intelligence is a computer with MS Word. If they need someone for intelligence GATHERING.... They'd probably do that themselves. That's what all the heroes do..

[carabas]

You're not really familiar with the non-Loeb version of this book, are you?

[prodigy]

You're not really familiar with the non-Loeb version of this book, are you?
I've read all The Ultimates (annuals too).

What does that have to do with anything?

[carabas]

Just that it should be obvious that in the Ultimate Universe, running an effective, Avengers-level superteam, is an extremely costly affair.

1. Their high-tech headquarters is already done and made and paid for. Actually... It's BEEN made for a while. It's Stark's house. It's not like they have to sweat over building costs or anything. How can a teleporter cost anything other than a steep electric bill?These things get completely trashed every half year or so. And a teleporter could run an electric bill into the hundreds of thousands of dollars.
2. Legal teams for what? They may not be part of SHIELD but I'm positive they're still government sanctioned.They are not.
And even so, legal teams only send you a bill each time, and only when they're needed.And they'd need them pretty much non-stop.
Spider-Man doesn't have, nor need a legal team.spider-Man can't be sued because his ID is unknown.
Neither did the Ultimate Defenders.I don't really think you can count those guys. And as soon as they beat up a criminal, yes, they'd need a lawyer.

3. There are only 10 members of the team - and two just apparently left. Food, clothes, and whatever else are the only things I can think that they would reasonably need. That's it. I'd say... It should realistically only cost $5 million (at the absolute most) to cover all of that.The Ultimates are accostumed to having bottomles credit cards to fuel their wants and needs.

4. Um. No. We're talking spandex here...None of them wear spandex.
They're not gonna withstand Mach 10. When did they ever do that?Quicksilver needs it. Just look at what happened whan Madureira/Loeb had him run moderately fast.
5. Tony Stark has access to SHIELD's database.That ain't going to cut it to stay abreast of current (as in right now) affairs. Amateurs watch some alien rampage through New York on the news, and go smash him. Professionals have their own sattelite early warning system and catch up with him ships before he even lands.

[RodeoWearden]

Yeah, I'm gonna have to agree with Carabas on this one. Just me, my wife, and my daughter living where we live is a very costly affair. I can't imagine several adult people, living in a Mansion with all the comforts that provides, plus high tech equipment etc etc etc. The Ultimates are going to need crazy funding, and Tony can't bear the brunt of all that for long.

[vitruvian]

And as soon as they beat up a criminal, yes, they'd need a lawyer.

Actually, any Ultimate Defenders, Mystery Men type of low-level supergroup would be well advised to have a lawyer (with decent connections to other lawyers so he or she doesn't have to defend themselves) as one of their members, for just this reason. Actually, this goes for any street-level group, even if fairly powerful, without a millionaire or billionaire on the roster. Luckily the New Avengers over in 616 have Danny Rand, who has Jeryn Hogarth on retainer.

[prodigy]

I just noticed this. Sorry if I'm behind.

http://img238.imageshack.us/img238/7895/dblakezd9.png

[prodigy]

Just that it should be obvious that in the Ultimate Universe, running an effective, Avengers-level superteam, is an extremely costly affair.
...Because apparently they have to pay thousands of dollars for the special super-hero-people air that they breathe now.

These things get completely trashed every half year or so.
That doesn't even make sense. It costs millions of dollars to run a team because their HQ "keeps" getting trashed?

Their HQ has only been "trashed" once. A couple walls got knocked down. That's it. They don't build their HQ out of monthly self-destructing material. Maybe a few ten thousand to fix those walls but that's it.

And a teleporter could run an electric bill into the hundreds of thousands of dollars.
Except for the fact that they don't have a teleporter. Thor can teleport them around. The only advanced piece of equipment they have is the self-sufficient Ultron robots and whatever it is that takes care of Iron Man's armor (which I see being an Iron Man thing because he is occasionally an independant operator).



And they'd need them pretty much non-stop.
To do what? Mow the lawn? Add numbers to the company baseball team? I should be asking you if you read any of The Ultimate books.

They only needed one (1) lawyer. Matt Murdock. And that was only for the Hulk rampage affair. That case only happened once and it's done with. Why is Matt gonna keep charging the Ultimates? The yearly anniversary Hulk rampage celebration?

Apparently Belgian lawyers nowadays constantly send bills to past clients for completely law-unrelated things.

I don't really think you can count those guys. And as soon as they beat up a criminal, yes, they'd need a lawyer.
They've beaten up plenty of people and haven't had to go to court over it.

"Hi your honor. My client here... the sociopath-diagnosed serial killer known as 'Venom' recently broke into the Ultimates HQ and attempted to kill all of them. He was promptly stopped. The Brock family would like all the monies in the world please."

The Ultimates are accostumed to having bottomles credit cards to fuel their wants and needs.
A Ferrari for each member is hardly a justifiable thing to include in the budget.

None of them wear spandex.
Quicksilver needs it. Just look at what happened whan Madureira/Loeb had him run moderately fast.
...Um. He is the only member of the team who goes that fast. The whole team doesn't need Mach 10-supportable suits.

And even then, why does super-cotton (or whatever they wear) cost thousands of dollars? Have you ever been to a fabric store?

That ain't going to cut it to stay abreast of current (as in right now) affairs. Amateurs watch some alien rampage through New York on the news, and go smash him. Professionals have their own sattelite early warning system and catch up with him ships before he even lands.
Tony Stark most likely already has sattelites.

Actually, any Ultimate Defenders, Mystery Men type of low-level supergroup would be well advised to have a lawyer (with decent connections to other lawyers so he or she doesn't have to defend themselves) as one of their members, for just this reason. Actually, this goes for any street-level group, even if fairly powerful, without a millionaire or billionaire on the roster. Luckily the New Avengers over in 616 have Danny Rand, who has Jeryn Hogarth on retainer.
Doesn't matter. They're not gonna hire a lawyer if they don't need one. What would the lawyer send you a bill for? You can't pay a lawyer to do sit around and nothing.

[desanth]

Yeah, I'm gonna have to agree with Carabas on this one. Just me, my wife, and my daughter living where we live is a very costly affair. I can't imagine several adult people, living in a Mansion with all the comforts that provides, plus high tech equipment etc etc etc. The Ultimates are going to need crazy funding, and Tony can't bear the brunt of all that for long.

In Ultimates 2, I believe it was noted that Stark made a killing on selling his tech to the government for SHIELD use; he was pretty much the sole supplier of all their crap. Hell, he sold old specs for his IM suits. Of course, they were a decade behind his current specs.

[nateslate8]

I hate it when I'm like waay to late to give my opinion on something. I feel like everyone will be done reading this thread by now. But oh well- I just picked up both #1,2 today.

I'm gonna give my opinion anyway just cuz:

Yes, I side with those who dislike the new Ultimates series. For the same reasons pretty much, so I won't try to cover what's already been covered.

Here's an observation: Did anyone else think how much this series reminds them of Xtreme Xmen? Probaby no one, but it should. Claremont/Larrocca And Larrocca had digital colors. People said the same thing about that comic as well- pretty art, weird digital colors, crappy writing. It even starts out the same- team targeted unexpectantly and their names are rattled off like some kind of role call (newsflash- we know who the characters are!) Too much introduced too soon that made us not care about either the characters or the plotline. Sounds... pretty much like Ult. 3.

Oh, and someone else mentioned that Loeb turned it form political satire to mystery. He turns everything into a mystery! (partially kidding) That's his schtick. But, you know, Millar had a mystery in volume 2. Only difference is that he took his time to build up to it, instead of crapping in his hand and throwing it at us like Loeb has done.

And what I don't understand, seriously it baffles me, is that Red Hulk, written by Loeb, is actually pretty decent. Dialogue is still a bit stiff, but most of it is in character, the super team that shows up out of nowhere actually makes sense (winter guard), and the ending leaves you wondering- and looking forward to- where Loeb is taking the story. WHY CAN'T HE DO THAT FOR THE ULTIMATES????

Another issue I have with the Ultimates 3 is how many stinking people are crammed into the book. It's like he's thinking, "oh, Mad will make this guy look amazing, let's put him in so he can draw him (spidey)". I remember Millar saying once that he purposefully put spiderman in a single panel in Vol 1 just so he can see Hitch draw him. That was done with class. Throwing the kitchen sink in just to have your star artist draw it? Senseless.

for all you haters of Loeb haters, I have something for you: I don't hate Jeph Loeb. I've met the guy before and he is a gentleman and LOVES his craft. I liked The Long Halloween, Batman/Superman, and I am liking hulk. But for some reason, maybe because the delays on 1 and 2 made him wait too long, he is no good with Ultimates. He just isn't.

Loeb said he had a four hour long conversation with Millar at some point. Man, I wonder what that conversation was like. And i also wonder how long we're going to have to wait to get the truth out of Millar and Hitch as to what they thought of 3. Usually the professional thing to do is not to be too negative toward your collegues because you have to get a long, but just like the Image guys started ratting on each other in the late 90's, I'd like to see what they'll eventually truthfully say about this run.

[nateslate8]

Not to get too off-topic, but I wanted to unpack one of my above-mentioned observations. Loeb has had a habit of putting too many character cameos in his stories, does he not? Go back to TLH- the joker was put in a couple of issues. I