Some Questions For the Board's Liberals

[Fenris]

I first posted this back in 2003, and then again in 2005; two years seems to give us a lot of board turnover. It’s a general survery that helps me understand the Respected Opposition, not in terms of argument but rather what you want out of politics.

(Of course, the fact that we're in an election year just makes it more interesting...)


Important note for my fellow conservatives: Please don't post on this thread! This is not a debate thread. It's just a general-information survey, and it's a lot easier to get some kinds of information if there's not an argument going on.

So, the questions. Please answer any and all that interest you:


1) How do you define liberalism? What ideal or belief should all liberals have in common?


2) Have you always been a liberal? If not, why did you become one?


3) What should the top priority of modern liberalism be?


4) What part of liberalism are you most proud of?


5) What about liberalism (if anything) would you like to change?


6) What would an ideal left-wing America look like? How close are we to that today?


7) Are you optimistic about liberalism's future?



õ
Thank you for explaining things!

[J Dog]

I've always felt confused about politics, but I feel more comfortable with being liberal than I am conservative... although some parts of liberalism I don't like, which I'll get to.

Also, I'm sympathetic to both groups, except for the true right-wings.

I don't know how to answer the questions right now, but I can tell you that Rush Limbaugh and Ann Coulter had a great influence in making me liberal. They disgust me!

[Merey]

1) How do you define liberalism? What ideal or belief should all liberals have in common?

Forward movement. But expanded: individual freedoms (within reason) to conduct your life in a way for one to reach their potential, but with the awareness that we are all part of a whole - a whole that functions better when those on the socio-economic bottom are given opportunities to rise above where they are otherwise trapped.


2) Have you always been a liberal? If not, why did you become one?

Yes.


3) What should the top priority of modern liberalism be?

Better public education, with a concentration on lower income areas.


4) What part of liberalism are you most proud of?

Suffragette Movement/Feminism and Civil Rights.


5) What about liberalism (if anything) would you like to change?

The myths and smears that have evolved to taint the definitions of, amongst others, "liberalism" and "feminism". [ETA - okay, that's not really an answer. I'll try again]

Having been friends with and involved in a community that had a very loud minority of far left-wing liberals in it, I wish I could have them see the whole picture. I wish they could understand that sometimes their movements/actions do more harm than good.


6) What would an ideal left-wing America look like? How close are we to that today?

I'm a somewhat moderate liberal, so I fear a far left-wing America as much as I fear far right-wing America. Ultimately, I believe it all comes down to balance. Liberals have to accept the good of Capitalism its corporations and Conservatives need to be willing to invest in those communities and people at the lower rungs of the ladder.

The last eight years have unfortunately shifted us a bit, but I believed we're currently regaining our balance again.


7) Are you optimistic about liberalism's future?

Yes, liberalism or progressivism is at its simplest roots about change. With knowledge comes enlightenment then change. We may take some steps backwards from time to time as the pendulum shifts, but we will always continue to ultimately advance forward. 'Tis the natural order of things.




By the way, because this not a debate and is a general survey these are my thoughts and ideals reduced to their most simplistic utterances. I do realize philosophy and politics exist in many varied shades of gray.

[Ray R.]

Disclaimer: I'm more pragmatist than progressive, and probably more financially conservative than most liberals, but I self-identify with the term, toxic as it might be to some.

1) How do you define liberalism? What ideal or belief should all liberals have in common?

Hmmm......tough question. Broadly speaking, I see liberalism as the political manifestation of the morality- and natural law-based social contract. Individuals owe an obligation to society as a whole to advance civilization collectively and individually. This is achieved through individual success within an open fair regulated system, with the resulting intellectual, financial and social progress maximized for societal gain as well as personal gain.

The essential belief for a liberal needs to be social justice, which is a neverending battle to protect and foster underlying principles of equity regardless of race, gender or creed, open and limitless discourse and intellectual freedom, and transparency in governmental and corporate dealings. More or less.


2) Have you always been a liberal? If not, why did you become one?


More or less.

3) What should the top priority of modern liberalism be?

Again, social justice. Particularly exercised through the courts, and including community issues like the environment, civil rights, health care, education, and infrastructure.

4) What part of liberalism are you most proud of?

The Civil Rights movement. National and international vaccination and disease eradication efforts. Enactment of fair and equitable labor laws, particularly those affecting children and the disenfranchised.

5) What about liberalism (if anything) would you like to change?

The unwillingness to see pragmatic pathways instead of progressive ideological posturing and condescension.

6) What would an ideal left-wing America look like? How close are we to that today?

Utopias don't exist. A utopia would undermine the need for the constant vigilance and action required with a belief in social justice inherent in liberalism.

Ideally, a government/corporate/individual partnership involving civil service in exchange for guaranteed college and graduate education would be good. Balanced government/private provision of basic health care, with availability of higher standards of care. National government/corporate initiatives on infrastructure, climate change, energy allocation, economic redevelopment of distressed and urban areas, labor laws, etc.

We've got a long, long way to go.

7) Are you optimistic about liberalism's future?

Not in the current political arena of destructive personal politics and manipulative media tactics and co-opting. The courage to lead becomes subsumed by the practicalities and necessities of pandering to the perceived status quo. Even effecting incremental changes are Sisyphean tasks, unfortunately.

[Mike Smash!]

I'm just going to cut/paste my really lengthy view on this from the older thread, because I summed myself up well there. I'll make any necessary changes as I notice any changes in my perception since 2005.

I'm a radical leftist/social democrat, but shorthand, I'd be described as "very liberal". I've been a member of the Green Party and I hope that Ralph Nader will give us one last run for the White House in 2008. But my relationship with the Greens is very likely coming to an end this year and I'll be a leftist political independent after that.

Here's my response to a thread Fenris did a while back with questions for the board liberals:

1) How do you define liberalism? What ideal or belief should all liberals have in common? Liberalism in three words is freedom, fairness and justice. It is the belief that all people and all cultures should have a voice, regardless of how small they are and that no group, no matter how dominant their number has the right to dictate the rights of other people. It's the belief that people are basically good and that government should go beyond protecting "negative freedoms" that mean non-interference in exercises of free speech, religion and peaceful assembly, but also "positive freedoms" where all people has the right to healthcare, education, clean food and water, a clean environment, decent wages you can raise a family on, the right of workers to organize, the right of equal access to criminal justice and a broad social safety net.

Liberalism is the belief that everyone shares these rights or no one does. That these rights are absolute, regardless of circumstance, popularity or even the moral decency of the person in question. That a Nazi should have the same treatment and protection under the law as a Saint.


2) Have you always been a liberal? If not, why did you become one? I've always been a liberal to some extent. But my politics have moved more and more to the Left with the more life experiences and studying of history that I've done.

My family is historically New Deal Democratic, but my immediate family hasn't much to do with that party anymore as they no longer represent our values. My mother and I are on the Coordinating Council for the Green Party of Seattle and my sister is probably an independent, but I've heard her say "what's the difference" between Democrats and Republicans on the issues of the day.

I used to be anti-Affirmative Action and pro-death penalty, but nowadays, I'm practically a socialist. I believe that laissez faire capitalism is just as harmful and oppressive as any form of tyranny and inevitably turns into a form of corporate feudalism, where competition is not possible, new ideas are suppressed or shot down and where governmental bail outs prevent new companies and industries from being born. Plus we look at what that system meant for the turn of the century. People waiting in droves outside of factories just in case someone would be fired for being sick on the job (or staying home sick) or even injuring themselves on the job, so that they can take their place in a job with no worker protect, no overtime pay where they work 16 hours a day at a slave's wage for six days a week, so that they can afford watered down milk mixed with formaldahyde to keep it "fresh".

These conditions still exist, only now due to the standard of workers' rights gained by progressives and socialists, they exist in third world countries.

That while many business and industry leaders preach the gospel of capitalism, they are the last to believe in it. When they stumble or fall, they expect a safety net to catch them and bail them out -- yet when they succeed after such a boost, they are not expected to give any of it back. And for the rest of us, it's sink or swim. Socialism for the wealthy elite, Unrestrained and predatory capitalism for the rest of us.


3) What should the top priority of modern liberalism be? I think it would be finding a cohesive message for progressive reform instead of trying to find the perfect message on paper, as if they're breeding the perfect race horse.

It's expected for party hacks and strategists to talk like this, but it's coming out of the mouth of progressive activists, too.

"We gotta get a veteran, so no one can call him a pussy! And he's got to be pro-death penalty so no one can call him weak on crime! Yeah!"

In the end, the only flavor that you can get from such a formula is vanilla and the only excitement you can generate from a vanilla candidate is hatred of a villain. The Kerry campaign is an excellent example of this.

I've yet to meet someone who was truly pro-Kerry, not even among his own campaign volunteers. Plenty of anti-Bush folk, but no one who got excited about having that jackass as President.

For strategy, they picked a guy who voted against their values consistently and then they have to try and sell something that they can't even get excited about themselves.

In 2000, Ralph Nader got a higher percentage of his votes (25% of his votes) from registered Republicans than Gore did, and he ran as an unabashed leftist.

I spoke with Fenris on the phone about how shitty Kerry was back when I was still a Democrat and his response pretty much sums it up. He laughed and said, "you Democrats really don't like your candidates, do you?".

No, they don't. And that's the problem.


4) What part of liberalism are you most proud of? The history of it and the advances that it has pushed, from social security, a minimum wage, the abolition of slavery, the direct election of U.S. Senators, the civil rights movement of the 1960s, the anti-war movement, the abolition of child labor, women getting the right to vote, the initiative, the referendum, the recall, the separation of church and state, public education, clean food and drug laws, the eight hour work day, the 40 hour work week, overtime pay, the right to form unions and collectively bargain.

These were all won by liberals, progressives, socialists and leftists and they were all called utopian dreamers and nutcases when they first proposed these ideas and these ideas were rejected as "extremist" by both major parties, but nowadays they've become the bare minimum for what most of us consider a just and decent society.

I take a lot of pride in that history and am proud to be a part of it. Knowing that people were killed, lynched, had their homes bombed, were blacklisted and were shot to death, humbles me, grounds me and helps me deal with problems today when I feel like something is hopeless or unfair. I look at the people that came before me and they not only give me strength to continue, but show me that I don't have it as bad as I think.


5) What about liberalism (if anything) would you like to change? Well, like above, the move that many liberals have made in recent years from integrity and strength to capitulation and fear. With people like Kerry and the way that the Democrats refuse to fight, they're choosing strategy over strength.

Do they think the Republicans are afraid to lose? Afraid to piss people off?

Of course not. And why does the Religious Right have as much power as it does? Simple. Because they're willing to walk and protest if they don't get what they want.

Look at Harriet Miers. They didn't accept her and went apeshit over it. They threatened to walk like they did when they abandoned Bush Sr. when he repudiated Pat Buchanan's "culture war" speech. They were willing to abandon them and the GOP knows that.

And even now, many on the Religious Right like James Dobson and others are calling for theocrats to walk away from the GOP if the pro-choice Giuliani wins the nomination in 2008.

If progressives did that with the Democratic Party, they'd have a lot more strength. Which means, refusing to vote for a candidate that voted for the war, the PATRIOT Act and countless other votes that went against everything they fought for and a Democratic Party that is ashamed of liberalism.

My change would be for them to walk and refuse to vote for or support that which betrays their values and join a party or organization that does.

(cont'd)

[Mike Smash!]

(cont'd from last post)

6) What would an ideal left-wing America look like? How close are we to that today? My ideal America would be one where everyone in the nation has guaranteed healthcare, universal education through college, and wages that they can raise a family off of.

Too many people right now work their fingers to the bone and fight with all of their strength just to keep their head above water. Many times, it's a random medical emergency that finally pulls them under because they simply do not have medical insurance (70% of bankruptcies come after a medical emergency). With universal education and a strong social safety net, they would be able to go to school and continue to raise a family and come out of school with the skills to get a better job and support their family better.

In the end, money is power and power means options. People without money don't have the same opportunities as those that have alot of it. They can't quit their job and go to school. They can't take a huge financial risk with an entrepenueral venture or a new business as easily as a rich person can. Much the way that Lance Armstrong and a man without legs don't have the same opportunity in a bike race.

My America would be one where being the richest nation in the world and being the most poverty stricken of all western industrialized nations would be considered totally unacceptable. Not an egalitarian society, but one where the bare minimum is quite high and that people have the opportunity to advance without fear of their whole life falling apart when they attempt it, especially if they have children to support.

To the rest of my world, the face of My America would be the face of a Peace Corps worker. We would wage relentless peace on the world, stomping out hunger, educating the poor, fighting disease and providing humanitarian aid whereever it's needed. People would see the American flag and be overjoyed, knowing that help is coming and that it doesn't expect anything in return.

In my America, we finally jetison the idea of preemptive war and exercises in corporate empire to the waste bin of history with other major embarrassments and atrocities. We state unequivocably that it will never be tolerated again. We legally hold American companies to the same standards abroad that we hold them to in the United States or penalize them severly. No corporation that violates civil rights, environmental law or commits fraud or any sort of crime will not get ANY government contracts. I would reduce our military budget by a third, eliminating costly wastes like Star Wars and weapons that are apparently designed in case the Soviet Union comes back. Get our military bases out of Europe and Asia from countries that do not need our protection and to whom our presense makes them a more likely target.

My America will pull out of agreements that pull down standards of workers rights, environmental protections and human rights like NAFTA, CAFTA and membership in the WTO. These agreements benefit none but multinational corporations that use them to outsource good paying jobs from the US to third world countries where they can pay slave wages and ignore human rights. That much of this outsourcing and the layoffs don't come because times are tough, but because they aren't good enough. My America will negotiate treaties that will pull up the standards everywhere in the world and attempt to make other countries just as prosperous as the U.S. and take away any incentive for illegal immigration and companies to outsource.

My America will treat the world community with respect and realize that while we have a lot to teach other countries, it is arrogant to believe that we have nothing to learn from them.

My America would thumb our nose at oil companies and auto companies (who regularly buy out and bury new technology) and start a massive move towards a clean, cheap and renewable energy source, or multiple energy sources. In an age where we have global positioning systems, DVD players and cameras that help us back into parking spaces, it's ludicrous that we're still powered our vehicles off of black gunk that we're pulling out the ground. With a program as large and sweeping as the Space Race of the 1960s, America will commit to a date to completely phase out mass production of the internal combustion engine. This move will create jobs at all levels from blue collar manufacturing jobs to jobs in scienctific research.

This move would again give us a sense of national unity and pride in something other than blowing people up. This would our energy source, and never again would we be forced to deal with tyrants and monsters for our energy needs. With a clean, stable energy source we will have no reason to go into the Middle East, save for humanitarian reasons and killing most of the reasons that give people like Osama bin Laden their power and ability to gain supporters into any sort of popular anti-West movement.

My U.S. will no longer support military coups of democratically elected leaders and replace them with friendly dictators. No longer will we rub elbows with fundamentalist nuts and blood thirsty tyrants like Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden. We will renounce all past such activities. Not "blame America first", but acting like an adult. And adult takes responsibility for their actions and tries to make amends. My America will never torture or kill, and will no longer export prisoners to places that do.

My America will have the highest standard of human rights. And will be able to say so without the world community laughing, sneering or rolling their eyes.

Energy independence and waging peace on the world and no longer supporting monsters will take away any kernel of truth that terrorists snowball their lies around.

My America will believe that all forms of peaceful protest and dissent are healthy expressions of democracy, regardless of the ideology involved. My America will not spy on these people for ideological reasons to treat activism or dissent as if it is somehow criminal activity.

My America would restructure the public education system away from a punitive system where funding is based on test scores, to one where everyone has an education that teaches them a practical project based education that collectively teach advanced math skills, reading skills and critical thinking skills. Students will learn how to balance a checkbook, do their taxes, learn philosophy and art and how to be a good citizen. Not teach them the values to espouse (that's their parent's job) but how to exercise those values. How to lobby a congressman for instance, how to organize for change. And teach them to be informed and critical citizens who are aware of the world around them. Because in the end, it's people that are the ultimate check and balance. An informed public can't be swayed or fooled by empty platitudes and bullshit. This would force our politicians to tell us the truth and not just say one thing and vote another way. It's greater accountability.

My America would have a complete separation of church and state, as promised by our Constitution. The government, though likely filled with people who have a religious belief, would not use religion as a tool or encourage or discourage any belief system. My America would realize that this separation is there to protect us all, even those in the majority. That no one is in the majority forever. That "In God We Trust" would be taken off our currency and "Under God" out of the Pledge of Allegience, as they were put in for entirely political reasons in the 1950s. No religious belief would be taken into law that doesn't have a secular and practical motivation as well. My America would be totally neutral in all ways when it comes to religion.

In My America, marriage is defined as a legally binding union between parties. Period. Marriage and adoption would be available to all families, not just those that look like the ones on 1950s sitcoms. No more discrimination of any kind written into law, and same sex couples and LBGT Americans would have the exact same rights as heterosexuals with no "separate but (not) equal" terminology.

My America would be able to seriously speak about being an example to the rest of the world, while realising that greatness must also include humility.

7) Are you optimistic about liberalism's future?Absolutely. For all the defeatism that many liberals have, we have won every battle we've ever gotten into and history has forced most conservatives onto our side.

Just look at the list of progressive heritage that I posted above and how people really don't realize the role that liberalism has played in our country's history.

For instance, how many elected conservatives will openly say that they want to eliminate social security? How many will openly attack gays or blacks or women the way that many did in the past?

No many. And that's a real victory. I look forward to a lot more of them, but that means being willing to lose and sticking to your guns when it's not easy or especially popular to do so.

Those are the people who change history, not the people who got "realistic" or "grew up".

I'm proud to be a leftist radical and I look at a radical tradition that puts me in the company of Henry Wallace, Ralph Nader, Robert LaFollette, Eugene Debs, Cesar Chavez, Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. and Gandhi and I feel pretty damn proud.

[Paul McEnery]

1) How do you define liberalism? What ideal or belief should all liberals have in common?
I'm comfortable enough with the Wiki to let it do the talking:

Broadly speaking, liberalism emphasizes individual rights and equality of opportunity. Different forms of liberalism may propose very different policies, but they are generally united by their support for a number of principles, including extensive freedom of thought and speech, limitations on the power of governments, the rule of law, the free exchange of ideas, a market or mixed economy, and a transparent system of government.[2] All liberals – as well as some adherents of other political ideologies – support some variant of the form of government known as liberal democracy, with open and fair elections, where all citizens have equal rights by law.[3]

2) Have you always been a liberal? If not, why did you become one?

What's not to like? Although I'm a late convert to the Darwinism of the market, through the acceptance that rational solutions don't always well reflect the nature of reality.

3) What should the top priority of modern liberalism be?
Energy and the environment. And probably food, too.


4) What part of liberalism are you most proud of?
Freeing people from religious/superstitious restrictions about how to live your life.


5) What about liberalism (if anything) would you like to change?
Waking up to Marxian insights about hidden costs and hidden restrictions. The oppressions of money are just as unpleasant as the restrictions of church and state; if, indeed, the restrictions of church and state weren't always about money, too.

6) What would an ideal left-wing America look like? How close are we to that today?
What's left wing about liberalism? And for that matter, what does left wing mean anyway? Damn if I know.

But I'll play along and say that it would be nice if we manned up and recognized the place of government in everyone's socio-political life. It takes governmental resources to haul our asses out of the fire when there's a market crash. It would be nice if the government would step in a little earlier when people are floating insane ideas like the subprime mortage, which have buggered the market before, and will again if someone doesn't do something about it.

Oh, and recognizing the interest of the people in developing clean energy. And of course recognizing that democracy means different things worldwide, and not just the non-participatory government of the rich for the rich by the rich.

7) Are you optimistic about liberalism's future?
Absolutely. There's a growing awareness that the free market needs a socialized infrastructure, and the socialist infrastructure needs a free market. In that sense of left and right, the two are talking now. All we need is the relative collapse of authoritarian capitalism and we're well on track for a liberalism of the 21st Century.

[Weapon Ick]

1) How do you define liberalism? What ideal or belief should all liberals have in common?

To me, Liberalism is about open-mindedness, being realistic, living for the future and complete rejection of the old ways of thinking and living. Having a revolutionary mindset.

2) Have you always been a liberal? If not, why did you become one?
I have not always been a liberal. When I was younger I believed that being old-fashioned was an asset and that the way people used to do things was better. I completely disagree now because I've seen how society never really changes and everyone just keeps repeating the same mistakes and not learning from anything.

3) What should the top priority of modern liberalism be?
Dismantaling the old world.

4) What part of liberalism are you most proud of?
I guess the fact that I am one.

5) What about liberalism (if anything) would you like to change?

I would like to separate liberalism and the democratic party. Most people think that democrats are liberals and it's just not true.

6) What would an ideal left-wing America look like? How close are we to that today?
Instead of %90 of the population believing in god and %10 atheists I think that number should be reversed. People will get rid of thier hang-ups about sex, race, religion and art. Victimless crimes would be a thing of the past. Society would have a more realistic concept of morality.

We are nowhere close to that. It almost looks like we're going backwards.

7) Are you optimistic about liberalism's future?
Over the years, I have found that the most intelligent people believe that there is no possibility for signifigant change unless there is a mass population decrease. It would take a super-flu or astroid or robot uprising for us to change our ways.

[Gingold]

1) How do you define liberalism? What ideal or belief should all liberals have in common?

Tolerance and acceptance of the new. Commitment to individual civil liberties and equal opportunities.

2) Have you always been a liberal? If not, why did you become one?

As long as I've been politically aware, yes.

3) What should the top priority of modern liberalism be?

Hard to name just one priority. I'd say protection of individual liberties and social and economic justice.

4) What part of liberalism are you most proud of?
The Civil Rights Movement.

5) What about liberalism (if anything) would you like to change?

On one hand, I'd like prominent liberals to show some more backbone. I'd also like to see liberals stop squabbling about each others' progressive "purity."


6) What would an ideal left-wing America look like? How close are we to that today?

Sweden.

7) Are you optimistic about liberalism's future?


Yes. Conservatism always loses in the long run.

[Paul McEnery]

6) What would an ideal left-wing America look like? How close are we to that today?

Sweden.
.

Be honest.

You just want hot blondes who aren't Republicans.

[Adam C]

Be honest.

You just want hot blondes who aren't Republicans.

Considering the only blonde Republican I know of is Ann Coulter...you really were serious when you said you've dated down to the standards of pretty, nonsensical explosions weren't you?

[Gingold]

Be honest.

You just want hot blondes who aren't Republicans.

That's an inherent aspect of liberalism.

[Adam C]

Well since "liberal" is basically catchall for anything vaguely left wing in the United States and that is the sense in which it is being used in this thread, I might as well have a crack at it. I should note that I am a historian with a skewed view on modern political categories, which does come out in the perspective in this post.

And for the record Mike encouraged me to post, so really, it's his fault. :p

1) How do you define liberalism? What ideal or belief should all liberals have in common?

As I see it liberalism was/is a political doctrine originating in the late 18th Century from the Age of Enlightenment which emphasizes individual rights, a constitutionally bound governmnent, and preference for the market economy. It is this political doctrine that forms the basic underpinning of the political values and institutions of societies in North America, Western Europe (and perhaps Eastern Europe since the fall of Communism), Australia, and certain other societies to varying degrees.

In the United States these values are often identified as "conservative" because it was precisely these values on which the country was founded. However, the term "liberal" has increasingly become used as a vague catch-all for anything left-of-centre. Part of the reason for this development is the rise of the a strain of thought called 'Social Liberalism' that began with British thinkers L.T. Hobhouse and T.H. Green who, in reacting to the poverty and squalor that much of the population lived in at the time, felt they could not properly exercise their individual freedom without having access to proper means of life. Thus the government should intervene as much as necessary in order ensure that people had access to such means, such as universal education. (Hobhouse interestingly disliked Marxism and called his own ideas "liberal socialism".) This view was carried on by thinkers such as John Dewey, John Maynard Keyes, and Isiah Berlin, and underpinned the policies of the New Deal. And people have increasingly adopted the term in that sense since then.

(In contrast Social Democracy was a moderate outgrowth of European socialism that grew out of the continent's socialist parties participating in the processes and structures of liberal democracy and increasingly being moderated by them. It's foundational thinker is Eduard Bernstein, who interestingly developed his ideas from observing that Marx's predictions were not bearing out.)

In my experience, it also seems to be the case that this trend is reinforced by the use of the term "liberal" by certain political thinkers on the right as an abusive catchall for anything not-desirable. Oddly enough I've seen people of much moderate political views who use this definition in a non-derisive sense and end up labelling Noam Chomsky (an left-wing anarchist) and Michael Parenti (a closet communist, if not closet Stalinist, if pay close enough attention) as liberals(!)

2) Have you always been a liberal? If not, why did you become one?


I have not always been a liberal. In fact I wouldn't even identify myself as such. I'm a social democrat (with a bit of anarchism thrown in) who'd probably be identified as a liberal in the United States for the reasons I discussed above. Plus my values are informed by essentially liberal ideas like individual rights, constitutionally limited government, and some belief in the expediency of the market as a form of economic organisation (in so far that central planning ain't gonna do it). In that sense liberalism is the political centre because its values under pin most political positions in North American and Western European society. And these were values that I implicitly picked up before I developed a real interest in politics. So I guess I'm liberal by default more or less (at least according to my definitions).

3) What should the top priority of modern liberalism be?

Well, I'm not really sure. What do you mean by 'liberalism'? It still retains it's old meaning in Europe from what I've heard, and in Canada, well, we're not sure what Liberalism means anymore. We have a political party by that name and they've pretty much shot their bolt for awhile after a thirteen year run of basically competent government as well as clawing away our social programs to balance the budget. But they'll bounce back. Hell liberalism in Canada is such a stable political force that I'm not sure what I would reccomend for it other than regrouping.

As far as liberalism in America goes, it desperately needs to retrench itself and fight back properly against the insane, bat-shit, down-right fascistic smearing going on about by the pundents that surround and openly support the Republican to the death. Ever since paying more attention to the political discourse in the United States following 9/11 I'm convinced that a concerted effort needs to be made by progressives to take the initiative and redefine the political discourse the way Republican polticians and pundits have. Only in this case it's to clear up all the poison and get things back to the point where positions can be debated rationally instead of being subject to vilification and insinuation that belongs more in a Maoist self-criticism session that in the political discourse of a democratic society.

4) What part of liberalism are you most proud of?

Probably breaking the feudal/hereditary system of nobility in Europe, making concepts like individual rights (or human rights in general) into culture and the popular discourse, and everything else which basically opened the floodgates of social and political change to create Western Society as we know it. It really was a momentous historical change, especially when you compare it against the relative social and political progress of the past 300 or so years with the about three-thousand-or-so years that proceeded it.

5) What about liberalism (if anything) would you like to change?


Bring it back to its original meaning. The way the term has be redefined actually serves more to obfuscate and misdirect that define and clarify. We get guys like Dennis Kucinuich and John Kerry defined as "liberals" merely for falling to the left of the Republican party when Kucinuich is centre-left and Kerry centre-right. Trying to centre it back to its original point would at least keep disparate political tendencies from being smooshed together under the flag of convenience (for whom, it's hard to tell) and force people to do more work in staking out and defining their positions.

6) What would an ideal left-wing America look like? How close are we to that today?

I'm not sure. Kinda like Mike's? But America is so far from being an ideal of anything that it will take a lot of work just to get it on the road to that goal. Hell my country's far from perfect (but a damn site better than what I see going on in the U.S. right now). And this was driven home by the experience of my best friend being basically without a proper home for six months and nearly having the home she could finally afford yanked out from under her due to bureaucratic rule mongering. (Fortunately this was reversed.) Some very fundamental changes in American politics are going to have to occur before things really start improving.

7) Are you optimistic about liberalism's future?

Depends on the country in question. Doing fine in Canada (yay gay marriage!) but I have to side with Ray's assessment in regards to the United States.

[Paul McEnery]

That's an inherent aspect of liberalism.

Does that mean that, after all, the socialists get all the redheads?

[Gingold]

Does that mean that, after all, the socialists get all the redheads?

To each according to his need...

[Paul McEnery]

To each according to his need...

Better red in bed!

[Bradley]

1) How do you define liberalism? What ideal or belief should all liberals have in common?

Liberalism, for me, is most notable for its flexibility, tolerance, and open-mindedness-- even if I find the things you're into distasteful, it's not my place to try to control you unless your actions wind up hurting someone.

Additionally, liberalism is concerned with social and economic justice. It's in all of our best interests to minimize poverty and to help those in need; a liberal government realizes this.


2) Have you always been a liberal? If not, why did you become one?

No. I used to be quite conservative. I even wanted to be a priest. I'd say I started becoming a liberal towards the end of high school, when some of my female friends caused me to re-evaluate my position on abortion. My education continued throughout college, where several of my black friends caused me to reconsider Affirmative Action and my gay friends convinced me that gay people deserve all the rights that I enjoy. It was a gradual thing, but I went from Conservative Christian to committed lefty Marxist freak.

3) What should the top priority of modern liberalism be?

Tough to say. In general, I think we should be working towards building a world where those who disagree with my liberal ideals can still prosper and be happy-- even while I'm propsering and being happy. I disagree with a lot of liberal bloggers who feel that Christians are inherently superstitious cretins, too stupid to be reasoned with, just as I disagree with conservatives who think that gay men are ruled by a perverse, Satanic man-lust that cannot be controlled and that would make a mockery of heterosexual marriage given the opportunity. I'd like for people to just agree to disagree without trying to use government or other forms of authority to force others to submit to their beliefs.

But practically speaking, in an election year, our top priorities need to be ending the occupation of Iraq with the absolute minimum number of casualties, providing health care for all Americans, and funding education.

4) What part of liberalism are you most proud of?

Civil rights. Feminism. That Jonah Goldberg disagrees with everything I stand for.

5) What about liberalism (if anything) would you like to change?

I think that, too often, those of us with liberal tendencies allow a certain type of conservative to control the debate. We've become so used to the Ann Coulters and Bill O'Reillys and Glen Becks describing the world in terms of binary oppositions, that we've forgotten that lots of people who vote Republican are well-intentioned, honest, intelligent people who have their own sets of ideals; because we've been so attacked and demonized in the past decade or so, we've become convinced that everyone who voted for George Bush must just hate us and everything we stand for-- we've genuinely come to believe that it's "us vs. them" because that's how Rush Limbaugh (and, at this point, lots of bloggers at The Daily Kos) have constantly described the situation.

So I'd like to see more liberals admit the truth-- there are plenty of decent Republicans. Deep down, we all know that's the case-- we've all had political disagreements with our fathers or grandmothers or roommates or whatever, and we love them anyway.

6) What would an ideal left-wing America look like? How close are we to that today?

Everyone would have perfect teeth, because dental would be included in the Universal Health Care Plan. And we'd all be well-dressed, because Queer Eye makeovers also fall under the Universal Health Care Plan.

Actually, to be honest, I think my ideal America would look a lot like the one we have now, except people would be more respectful and honest in their disagreements. So no Fox News, obviously, but liberals would also be a little more willing to point out when Michael Moore is full of shit, too.

7) Are you optimistic about liberalism's future?

Depends on my mood. If Obama wins the nomination, yeah, I'm pretty optimistic. Even my conservative Republican dad loves Obama. Clinton... I dunno. I don't see her really bringing people together. Not necessarily through any fault of her own-- there are just lots of people whose automatic response to the name "Clinton" is blind, irrational hate.

Still, I think our natural inclination is toward self-improvement, so maybe.

[Nitmo]

[i]
And for that matter, what does left wing mean anyway? Damn if I know.



Usually, Democrat-elects sit on the left side of the aisle.

And eventually it became a metphorical barometer (far-left or far-right wing)

[Paul McEnery]

Usually, Democrat-elects sit on the left side of the aisle.

And eventually it became a metphorical barometer (far-left or far-right wing)

Technically, it's a term from the French parliament, or so I understand.

But I still don't know what left and right really mean anymore. It seems to me to be be like a divorced couple still arguing about where to put the plates.

[Adam C]

Technically, it's a term from the French parliament, or so I understand.

It is. Which is really funny, because many of those sitting on the left-side of the French parliament were in favour of laissez-faire economics and a constitutional Republic, which these days are invariably identified as right wing.

Which is probably why the two terms are meaningless now. They serve more to simplify and limit the range of political ideas out there rather than properly express them. So we get libertarians bafflingly described as "a combination of right-wing and left-wing" because of their liberal attitudes towards lifestyle choices, which is based on a broader application of Classical Liberal ideas of limited government and individual rights than anything coming from what can be identified as the left-wing of the political spectrum. (It's also ahistorical as well.)

But I still don't know what left and right really mean anymore. It seems to me to be be like a divorced couple still arguing about where to put the plates.

Darn, and just when I established a new sig...

[Huh?]

...They serve more to simplify and limit the range of political ideas out there rather than properly express them. So we get libertarians bafflingly described as "a combination of right-wing and left-wing" because of their liberal attitudes towards lifestyle choices, which is based on a broader application of Classical Liberal ideas of limited government and individual rights than anything coming from what can be identified as the left-wing of the political spectrum. (It's also ahistorical as well.)Well put.

Our political system as it stands now seems by design to limit the number of choices we all have as much as possible. Essentially, all of our presidential elections amount to a true/false test with one question. Our government makes election laws that severely limit the opportunity for anyone other than a democrat or a republican to get on a presidential ballot, as well as many other prominent ballots. Is that choice? Is that democracy?

No. It is a high stakes coin toss.

As to the questions in the original post, I don't know that anyone can be called a "liberal" or a "conservative" and have it mean anything - which of course is what makes pigeon-holing a person stupid anyway.

[filterpunk]

1) How do you define liberalism? What ideal or belief should all liberals have in common?
On a basic level, I consider liberalism and it's common ideals to be consideration and empowerment of the individual in order to benefit the collective whole.

2) Have you always been a liberal? If not, why did you become one?
I was raised in a relatively conservative, religious household. As I grew up, I started to experience life independently of my family and what I was seeing, what I was learning, didn't mesh with what I had been taught. My views on religion, socio-economics, history, immigration, foreign cultures, and the world in general, simply diverged from theirs as I learned more on my own.

3) What should the top priority of modern liberalism be?
For one, I think it's a bit silly to treat politics like a religion, where each person is supposed to adhere to some kind of idealistic blueprint. Terms like "liberal" and "conservative" should only be loose guidelines used to generally describe your political beliefs, but not wholly define them.

That said, what I'd like to see are people taking responsibility for themselves as voters or political observers, not adhering to a set group of theories without deviation. Learn to disseminate, analyze, and consider information for yourself, without leaning on jingoistic chest-thumping, emotional reaction, or popular belief.

4) What part of liberalism are you most proud of?
That most conclusions on a particular issue are reached through logic and reason, not religion and conjecture.

5) What about liberalism (if anything) would you like to change?
More direct action and a lesser tolerance of some of the more dangerous ideas put forth by right-wing Americans.

6) What would an ideal left-wing America look like? How close are we to that today?
In a loose sense, an ideal left-wing America would be an inclusive society, not exclusionary. Universal healthcare doesn't mean that you can't sign up for an HMO if you want to, pro-choice doesn't mean you can't have children or that everyone will abort babies en masse, seperation of church and state doesn't mean you aren't allowed to practice your beliefs, welfare doesn't mean everyone is "milking the system" - in other words, helping one person or group doesn't mean stomping on another.

7) Are you optimistic about liberalism's future?
As far as my beliefs fit under that term? Yes. My concern is that conservatives, in their quest to push their so-called "values" on everyone who doesn't share them, will ultimately destroy this country. There's not much I find more frightening than the idea of a country ruled by a close-minded, hateful, one-religion theocracy.

[Acecool]

(cont'd from last post)

*Snip for length (sorry)*



My America would be one where being the richest nation in the world and being the most poverty stricken of all western industrialized nations would be considered totally unacceptable. Not an egalitarian society, but one where the bare minimum is quite high and that people have the opportunity to advance without fear of their whole life falling apart when they attempt it, especially if they have children to support.

To the rest of my world, the face of My America would be the face of a Peace Corps worker. We would wage relentless peace on the world, stomping out hunger, educating the poor, fighting disease and providing humanitarian aid whereever it's needed. People would see the American flag and be overjoyed, knowing that help is coming and that it doesn't expect anything in return.

In my America, we finally jetison the idea of preemptive war and exercises in corporate empire to the waste bin of history with other major embarrassments and atrocities. We state unequivocably that it will never be tolerated again. We legally hold American companies to the same standards abroad that we hold them to in the United States or penalize them severly. No corporation that violates civil rights, environmental law or commits fraud or any sort of crime will not get ANY government contracts. I would reduce our military budget by a third, eliminating costly wastes like Star Wars and weapons that are apparently designed in case the Soviet Union comes back. Get our military bases out of Europe and Asia from countries that do not need our protection and to whom our presense makes them a more likely target.

My America will pull out of agreements that pull down standards of workers rights, environmental protections and human rights like NAFTA, CAFTA and membership in the WTO. These agreements benefit none but multinational corporations that use them to outsource good paying jobs from the US to third world countries where they can pay slave wages and ignore human rights. That much of this outsourcing and the layoffs don't come because times are tough, but because they aren't good enough. My America will negotiate treaties that will pull up the standards everywhere in the world and attempt to make other countries just as prosperous as the U.S. and take away any incentive for illegal immigration and companies to outsource.

My America will treat the world community with respect and realize that while we have a lot to teach other countries, it is arrogant to believe that we have nothing to learn from them.

My America would thumb our nose at oil companies and auto companies (who regularly buy out and bury new technology) and start a massive move towards a clean, cheap and renewable energy source, or multiple energy sources. In an age where we have global positioning systems, DVD players and cameras that help us back into parking spaces, it's ludicrous that we're still powered our vehicles off of black gunk that we're pulling out the ground. With a program as large and sweeping as the Space Race of the 1960s, America will commit to a date to completely phase out mass production of the internal combustion engine. This move will create jobs at all levels from blue collar manufacturing jobs to jobs in scienctific research.

This move would again give us a sense of national unity and pride in something other than blowing people up. This would our energy source, and never again would we be forced to deal with tyrants and monsters for our energy needs. With a clean, stable energy source we will have no reason to go into the Middle East, save for humanitarian reasons and killing most of the reasons that give people like Osama bin Laden their power and ability to gain supporters into any sort of popular anti-West movement.

My U.S. will no longer support military coups of democratically elected leaders and replace them with friendly dictators. No longer will we rub elbows with fundamentalist nuts and blood thirsty tyrants like Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden. We will renounce all past such activities. Not "blame America first", but acting like an adult. And adult takes responsibility for their actions and tries to make amends. My America will never torture or kill, and will no longer export prisoners to places that do.

My America will have the highest standard of human rights. And will be able to say so without the world community laughing, sneering or rolling their eyes.

Energy independence and waging peace on the world and no longer supporting monsters will take away any kernel of truth that terrorists snowball their lies around.

My America will believe that all forms of peaceful protest and dissent are healthy expressions of democracy, regardless of the ideology involved. My America will not spy on these people for ideological reasons to treat activism or dissent as if it is somehow criminal activity.

My America would restructure the public education system away from a punitive system where funding is based on test scores, to one where everyone has an education that teaches them a practical project based education that collectively teach advanced math skills, reading skills and critical thinking skills. Students will learn how to balance a checkbook, do their taxes, learn philosophy and art and how to be a good citizen. Not teach them the values to espouse (that's their parent's job) but how to exercise those values. How to lobby a congressman for instance, how to organize for change. And teach them to be informed and critical citizens who are aware of the world around them. Because in the end, it's people that are the ultimate check and balance. An informed public can't be swayed or fooled by empty platitudes and bullshit. This would force our politicians to tell us the truth and not just say one thing and vote another way. It's greater accountability.

My America would have a complete separation of church and state, as promised by our Constitution. The government, though likely filled with people who have a religious belief, would not use religion as a tool or encourage or discourage any belief system. My America would realize that this separation is there to protect us all, even those in the majority. That no one is in the majority forever. That "In God We Trust" would be taken off our currency and "Under God" out of the Pledge of Allegience, as they were put in for entirely political reasons in the 1950s. No religious belief would be taken into law that doesn't have a secular and practical motivation as well. My America would be totally neutral in all ways when it comes to religion.

In My America, marriage is defined as a legally binding union between parties. Period. Marriage and adoption would be available to all families, not just those that look like the ones on 1950s sitcoms. No more discrimination of any kind written into law, and same sex couples and LBGT Americans would have the exact same rights as heterosexuals with no "separate but (not) equal" terminology.

My America would be able to seriously speak about being an example to the rest of the world, while realising that greatness must also include humility.



Pretty much agreed to this answer. I would only like to add one or two points in a fairly great response.

1st. Corporations are not people. The supreme court about a hundred year ago ruled that pieces of documents and agreements between rich individuals were considered human beings afforded the same rights and privileges as humans. In my America, those individuals in charge would be held responsible for crimes committed by a corporation instead of the fake human created on paper. It is not right for corporations to share in my rights, and take on an identity that should be reserved for individuals.

2nd. I would reinstate the estate tax and in fact grow it to the point that no one gets by because they were lucky enough to be born into a rich family. The fact that some individuals have millions and billions of dollars that afford them opportunities that no one else could dream of is outlandish in a country were nearly a quarter of a million vets live on the street.

yes I know I said two, but i thought of some more.

3rd. Health care should be extended to those in need of mental health. Specifically those who live on the street and cannot find their way off the street because of mental disorders. Homelessness took a huge increase after we shut down many asylums.

4th. Education. I love the changes mentioned above, not least of all because I am an educator. However I think higher education should be free to all that would seek it. No doors to educational institutes should ever be closed because people cannot afford it. I could go on and mention that teachers need to be paid more so that we have smaller class sizes and would draw upon the brightest to teach everyone. Everyone should have to learn at least 3 different languages in school starting from k and never ending. Everywhere in the world people learn multiple languages, but our arrogance to stick with English only, only serves to limit us. It is like putting into law that schools should keep our kids and our country stupid and ignorant.

5th. Vacation and off days have become a luxury for the rich and powerful. In my America 6 weeks of paid vacation would not be unheard of. People need to spend time with their families, to live life and not to slave away at work just to get by. In my America we would have the time to live, to look around.

6thish. We wouldn't be afraid of new ideas. We wouldn't be afraid to learn from other countries, to take the ideas that work well and apply them to our lives.

[Drew Van T.]

Everyone should have to learn at least 3 different languages in school starting from k and never ending. Everywhere in the world people learn multiple languages, but our arrogance to stick with English only, only serves to limit us. It is like putting into law that schools should keep our kids and our country stupid and ignorant.

Fastest way to accomplish is that by meeting the Hispanics halfway. Create bilingual public schools in areas where they are numerous ("bilingual" meaning that everyone has to learn both languages, not that they can just pick any one).

[Roquefort Raider]

I first posted this back in 2003, and then again in 2005; two years seems to give us a lot of board turnover. It’s a general survery that helps me understand the Respected Opposition, not in terms of argument but rather what you want out of politics.

(Of course, the fact that we're in an election year just makes it more interesting...)


Important note for my fellow conservatives: Please don't post on this thread! This is not a debate thread. It's just a general-information survey, and it's a lot easier to get some kinds of information if there's not an argument going on.

So, the questions. Please answer any and all that interest you:


1) How do you define liberalism? What ideal or belief should all liberals have in common?

As many have stated above, I think liberals share views on things like equality of chances and opportunities, respect for individual rights and freedoms, and an emphasis on the development of the individual rather than the accumulation of material riches. (The latter point is more of a personal point of view, but I do associate it with liberalism).

I understand that conservatives also view equality and freedom as major goals. So do libertarians. Their points of view differ in their ways to get there, though.

When adhered to with no temperance, the conservative and liberal agendas quite often end up acting contrary to their stated goals: extreme conservatism can lead to slavery (actual or virtual) and cultural and religious intolerance; extreme liberalism can lead to Marxism.

An extreme conservative world would have rules saying that people must be treated equally, and ensuring the individual freedoms of all. Sounds good, except that it would not make allowances for the naturally-occurring injustices that come with being human; no subsidies would be given to poor families to help them get their kids to school; no public health system would exist; no slack would be given to people having to deal with serious health, economic or social handicaps. In a strict conservative sense, or so I understand it, helping the less-favored would be a matter of individual choice, not rule. Oh, and of course small business owners would have the freedom not to hire anyone with the "wrong" skin color.

While I think a liberal agenda does try to set the balance straight, I do acknowledge that things can be pushed too far in the other direction. I am genuinely worried about current "liberal" excesses among which I count an over the top crusade against smoking, school reforms that make education less stressful but also eviscerate it from any content, taxation seen as a source of income for the public sector (to spend or waste as it sees fit) rather than a fair redistribution of our riches for the common good, and political correctness in general. However, as things currently stand in the western world, I think we still have some room to move leftward before we become too liberal and not enough conservative.


2) Have you always been a liberal? If not, why did you become one?

Oh, no, I've one the whole spectrum in my life; I was a socialist as a young lad because I really believed in the redistribution of wealth, until I learned a little history and saw how "pure" socialism would never work. I went very right-wing when the USSR invaded Afghanistan, but eventually realized that the Reagan vision of the world was window-dressing, and that all its proper and responsible demeanor hid a corrupt and ugly reality where people and countries could easily be sacrificed for the sake of a bcuk in the right pocket. The recent Bush Jr. debacle just confirmed my views. I was tepted by libertarianism, which I still like as a philosophical position, but I don't think a libertarian state (if such a thing isn't an oxymoron!) could work.

Just looking at the world and what has made people safe, healthy and happy during my 40+ years, I would say that the best political system is a center-left democracy, where state support of the needy is balanced by individual responsibilities, and where individual freedoms are respected as long as they do not clearly pose a threat to the individual freedoms of others.


3) What should the top priority of modern liberalism be?


Avoid dogmatism, avoid corruption, stay true to the liberal ideals.


4) What part of liberalism are you most proud of?

To see how far equality has progressed for many groups of people who never had any reason to be repressed.


5) What about liberalism (if anything) would you like to change?


Its tendency to fall in the trap of political correctness, of being afraid to say things that somehow, somewhere, might offend someone.


6) What would an ideal left-wing America look like? How close are we to that today?


I lived in the US for five years during the Clinton administration, and I say that his two terms were an American golden age. The Clinton years were pretty close to an ideal centrist America. (Because let's face it... I doubt the US will ever be a left-wing country).


7) Are you optimistic about liberalism's future?


Oh, yes... Just look at the past 200 years: more and more democracies; individual freedoms on the rise; less and less discrimination based on race, gender, origin, language or religion; the development of a global conscience regarding our planet... We're by no means there yet, but we're making progress.

[LtMarvel]

1) How do you define liberalism? What ideal or belief should all liberals have in common?
Individual freedom. A reasonable safety net.

2) Have you always been a liberal? If not, why did you become one?
Pretty much.

3) What should the top priority of modern liberalism be?
Universal health care. I can't believe that some life-saving procedures are unavailable to people because some insurance company says it'll cost too much money.

4) What part of liberalism are you most proud of?
Fight for equality for for oppressed minorities.


5) What about liberalism (if anything) would you like to change?
Can we have better politicians?

6) What would an ideal left-wing America look like? How close are we to that today?
Not very close to Universal Health Care. Conservatives put up huge road blocks to gay rights; I'd imagine that they would take decades to remove.

7) Are you optimistic about liberalism's future?
Absolutely. I just look at history. The conservatives were wrong on the treatment of women and minorities. I'm hard pressed to think of any movement in which conservatives were right.

[Roquefort Raider]

3) What should the top priority of modern liberalism be?
Universal health care. I can't believe that some life-saving procedures are unavailable to people because some insurance company says it'll cost too much money.

We are currently seeing a very perverse effect of the private sector-driven health care. Genetics have advanced to the point where it is not only technically feasible, but also cheap enough, to test people for their likelihood of developing certain diseases in the course of their life. With such knowledge, people could know far in advance that they must watch for this or that symptom, or that they should make this or that life choice to better their chances of having a long and healthy life.

In a universal healthcare context, such tests would be practiced whenever they appeared warranted, and practitioners could better care for their charges. When business forces come into it, though, it's a whole different ball game: for fear of seeing their health insurance premium rise, people will refuse to be tested. More: insurance companies may try to test people to better determine what risks they face, the way it's done for life insurance, leading to a fight between people and insurers regarding privacy vs right to know.

Clearly, in this context at least, a universal health care system would allow scientific advances to better benefit everyone and save a bundle inheadaches and in legal costs.

[elldot21]

OK, it's been over a month so I don't feel bad interrupting the intention of the original poster by saying this:

That was some of the SCARIEST $%* I'VE EVER READ!

And not because I didn't agree with some of it ie: intentions, but the way those intentions CURVED like a rainbow on speed towards solutions that were scary go crazy nuts!

Anyway, "sorry I had a fight in the middle of your black panther party."

[gary bolt]

OK, it's been over a month so I don't feel bad interrupting the intention of the original poster by saying this:

That was some of the SCARIEST $%* I'VE EVER READ!

And not because I didn't agree with some of it ie: intentions, but the way those intentions CURVED like a rainbow on speed towards solutions that were scary go crazy nuts!

Anyway, "sorry I had a fight in the middle of your black panther party."

Could you rephrase that in a way that actually makes some kind of sense?

[Mac Danny]

1) How do you define liberalism? What ideal or belief should all liberals have in common?

For me, it's the idea that people should be allowed to be people. As long as no one is getting hurt I can let a lot of things slide. So, tolerance I think is key.

2) Have you always been a liberal? If not, why did you become one?

Pretty much.

3) What should the top priority of modern liberalism be?

Tolerance and Rights protection

4) What part of liberalism are you most proud of?

The tolerant parts I guess.

5) What about liberalism (if anything) would you like to change?

Pandering. Tell me what you think not what you think I think you should say.

6) What would an ideal left-wing America look like? How close are we to that today?

There would be acceptance of same sex marriages, stem cell research, and arts grants.

7) Are you optimistic about liberalism's future?

I have to be optimistic about the future because the present sucks.

[elldot21]

Could you rephrase that in some way that actually makes some kind of sense?


That was some of the SCARIEST $%* I'VE EVER READ!

And not because I didn't agree with some of it ie: intentions,

On the whole of what I read, it seems that most liberals (in this thread) are as much concerned with individual freedoms and compassion towards the poor as anyone else. that intention, I agree with.

but the way those intentions CURVED like a rainbow on speed

however the solutions to those problems tended to skew heavily toward government action that included: social justice, social equality, equal access, universal healthcare, positive rights etc etc. All of which require laws and a massively taxed-funded government (also massive) to enforce those laws. The enacting of which actually LESSONS freedom and LESSONS the ability for compassion.

And the degree to which the concepts where embraced as being simple truths of which the pursuit would surely produce a better world resembles what it's like to chase the end of a rainbow, because even though you can see the object of your desire - your intentions, it's never possible because it doesn't exist. You waste time, money, effort, and end up further from solutions than when you began.

That, to me, is what liberalism encompasses today. and it was on plain display as I read through this thread.

towards solutions that were scary go crazy nuts!

That was my homage to Homestar Runner :)

Anyway, "sorry I had a fight in the middle of your black panther party."

That was my homage to Forest Gump, as my comments here are in the middle of and don't line up with someone else's party.

Again, sorry about that :D

[elldot21]

And I see this thread is back up and running so I'll be not responding

at least for a month :D