The Order is canceled (or killed, depending on how you want to look at it)

[Beast]

Didn't know where else to put this. And I didn't want to start a new thread. [I did. -ED]

From Comics Continuum:

The Order #10 will be the final issue of the Marvel titles.

[drwho]

Wow that is seriously lame. I wonder if they will all get massacred. Didn't even give the book time to do much. Hell antman got 12 issues.

[Fatguy]

Didn't know where else to put this. And I didn't want to start a new thread.

From Comics Continuum:

The Order #10 will be the final issue of the Marvel titles.

@&$^#@%@(*#^&*$^&##(*(@#*(&(&@#*((@(!!!!!!!!!!!!

At least I'm not surprised, it's been selling terribly :(

Those of you not buying the book, you should be ashamed!

[MrPrimeMinister]

Damn it! I gotta stop pulling for underdog teams...

[dabig2]

Wow, couldn't even get 12 issues. WTF.

Ms. Marvel, the next lowest selling Marvel book, is next if the Order is getting cancelled.

[StoneGold]

Aw, crap. I really liked this book.

[Expletive Deleted]

From Comics Continuum:

The Order #10 will be the final issue of the Marvel titles.Well, that sucks.

[killerbass]

Well, I had been wishy-washy about the series -- until last week when I sat down and re-read issues 1-6 straight through.

Wow, it all fell into place! It was fantastic!

The problem, for me was that I read too many books -- or that I am just too old and can't remember a slew of new characters four weeks later.

Hopefully this series will pick up a mess of new readers when the trade comes out!

Meanwhile, it's still on my pull list...

--Tom

[TotalWorldDomination]

Come on! Marvel has been willing to stick it out with lower-selling books! The Order is GREAT!

They better get a mini soon...

[Omega Alpha]

This is a sad day :(

See it here (http://www.comicscontinuum.com/stories/0801/21/index.htm) and here (http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=144015)

[TotalWorldDomination]

Here's hoping that a miniseries for these characters or absorption into the background of Avengers: the Initative awaits the fine men and women of the Order. They deserved better then they got.

[Fatguy]

Veda, Supernaut, and especially Calamity, really REALLY need to not slip into limbo.

[Agent_Torpor]

We NEED MORE SPIDER MAN AND WOLVERINE-RELATED TITLES!

Pish-posh like this has no place in today's Marvel!!



RIP The Order - up there with Nextwave and Irredeemable Ant-Man in the pantheon of short-lived greatness.

[Expletive Deleted]

Stealing an idea from one of the CSBG commenters . . . After the "Champions" name got nixed, they should've gone with "Mighty Avengers: West Coast." That would've been good for 18-24 issues, at the very least.

[Zero Hunter]

@&$^#@%@(*#^&*$^&##(*(@#*(&(&@#*((@(!!!!!!!!!!!!

At least I'm not surprised, it's been selling terribly :(

Those of you not buying the book, you should be ashamed!

I feel no shame whatsoever. I didn't like the premise from the start so I wasn't going to waste my money. Sorry you lost a book you liked, but this happens to niche books all the time.

[Beast]

This is a sad day :(

See it here (http://www.comicscontinuum.com/stories/0801/21/index.htm) and here (http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=144015)
Thanks for those links. At least we finally know what the 6th issue of Young Avengers will be about.

Matt is writing the 6th Young Avengers Presents book.

"It's about The Hawkeyes, Clint Barton and Kate Bishop, and will be drawn by Alan Davis. We finally get to see what happens when Hawkeyes collide."

[XPac]

I think they should have handled the series more like Avengers: Initiative.

They should have put at least some established MU characters in there, and maybe even should tried to tie in into the rest of the MU more. It really did feel like a completely seperate book outside of the rest of the MU.

I'm not criticising the book at all... it was good. But in the same breath, I'm not completely suprised it failed.

[Shyft]

hopefully its 10 issues will be collected into a tpb. The Order always mildly interested me, but from the previews/preview art, it was just never a book i could justify putting on my already bloated pull list.

[XPac]

hopefully its 10 issues will be collected into a tpb. The Order always mildly interested me, but from the previews/preview art, it was just never a book i could justify putting on my already bloated pull list.

Yeah, I think the Order will come off a lot better in trade form.

A book with a lot of new characters will have a tough time getting any attenion on a monthly basis. But if people can sit there and read it in one sitting in a book store somewhere, it'll make more of an impression.

[protege]

Wow, couldn't even get 12 issues. WTF.

Ms. Marvel, the next lowest selling Marvel book, is next if the Order is getting cancelled.

I thought Ms M was selling better than that, but somehow i'm not surprised. as for the order, i tried it, and couldn't really get into it. that being said, i'd kind of like "Hera" to pop up in "Incredible hercules."

[Diablito]

Honestly, I didn't really like this series, but I"m sorry for the fans of the series. I do hope that the charcacters survive, as most of them had great powers/designs.

[BYC]

Ms. Marvel's numbers are on the lower end. The numbers were posted a month ago or so. Ms. Marvel needs to do worse before it's in danger, but it is one of those that's close to the danger line.

[Monty_Cristo]

i think we should wait and see what actually goes down in the last issue. the solicit didn't make it seem like the story was rushed. a few of these characters would be better off branching out into other teams.

[DDM]

The Order needed better, stronger characters & a different name. Avengers-Lite would have been better than The Order. I'm not surprised it got cancelled.

[HepOne]

I think it probaly has something to do with the fact that Barry Kitson is Marvel exclusive as well. It sounds like a situation similar to the Nextwave cancellation

[reddog]

Just change the titles name to something like X Order or Order X and it would sell. It doesnt have to be good if it has an X in it sell.

[Agent_Torpor]

Just change the titles name to something like X Order or Order X and it would sell. It doesnt have to be good if it has an X in it sell.

Aint that the truth.

[Omega Alpha]

The Order needed better, stronger characters & a different name. Avengers-Lite would have been better than The Order. I'm not surprised it got cancelled.

It already had great characters, awesome writing and beautiful art. The problem is that fans don't want to read new things.

[XPac]

Just change the titles name to something like X Order or Order X and it would sell. It doesnt have to be good if it has an X in it sell.

In all seriousness though, I do wonder whether or not a name change wouldn't have helped.

If it were Avengers: the Order kind of like Avengers: Initiative, I wonder whether or not it wouldn't have had a better shot.

[Brady]

Oh FFS. This is easily my favourite Marvel title right now. I shouldn't be surprised, but I'm always (wrongfully) optimistic about these things.

[agrich]

The problem is that fans don't want to read new things.

I bet the name change, which I know they had no choice on, hurt the book a lot. Maybe a while back you heard about a book called The Champions, and were interested in the premise. Sometime later the title was changed to The Order, which isn't a good name anyway, and maybe you missed that news item. The Champions book you had been thinking about at one time never shows up and you forget about it or figured it got cancelled; meantime your eyes pass right over some new book on the shelf called The Order.

So this was not only a new thing, it was a new thing for which much of the advance promotion got wasted because it was referencing something with an entirely different name.

[Fatguy]

I feel no shame whatsoever. I didn't like the premise from the start so I wasn't going to waste my money. Sorry you lost a book you liked, but this happens to niche books all the time.

lol thank you for explaining that to me...

I was obviously joking, I dont really expect you to feel shamed if you werent reading it ;) Your lack of good taste is punishment enough.

[DDM]

I bet the name change, which I know they had no choice on, hurt the book a lot. Maybe a while back you heard about a book called The Champions, and were interested in the premise. Sometime later the title was changed to The Order, which isn't a good name anyway, and maybe you missed that news item. The Champions book you had been thinking about at one time never shows up and you forget about it or figured it got cancelled; meantime your eyes pass right over some new book on the shelf called The Order.

So this was not only a new thing, it was a new thing for which much of the advance promotion got wasted because it was referencing something with an entirely different name.

The Champions would have sold better than The Order; likewise, it would not hurt to have some original Champions from the original line-up: Angel, Iceman, Ghost Rider, Hercules, Black Widow, & Darkstar with a few new characters in the mix.

I think, as you say, The Champions would have lasted longer...

[Chachi]

Best guess is Marvel Comics Presents is next to go. Solicits show it safe thru #12. Bet thats it as sales have been bad. Its the price point, and uninteresting storys that will doom this title.

[bulbasteve]

Here's hoping that a miniseries for these characters or absorption into the background of Avengers: the Initative awaits the fine men and women of the Order. They deserved better then they got.

Fraction just talked in the word balloon podcast about Marvel letting them end the series the way they want. Frankly it would be pretty darn stupid and against the entire point of the book if they somehow broke the 1 year limit and become professional superheroes. The whole point of the series is that these are real heroes who got the chance to become superheroes. I think if the series ends as anything else than these people getting on with their lives reinspired to help people and seeing a new team take on the order legacy then the book would have ended on a really bad note.

[jester1436]

The Champions would have sold better than The Order; likewise, it would not hurt to have some original Champions from the original line-up: Angel, Iceman, Ghost Rider, Hercules, Black Widow, & Darkstar with a few new characters in the mix.

I think, as you say, The Champions would have lasted longer...

But "The Champions" as a title is out of the question. They can't publish a book under that title and ultimately it's not a sellable title anyway. "The Champions" was something of a bomb, even if it was enjoyable, it's not a title that actually means anything like X-Men or Avengers.

Also, why would they include ANY of the original Champions of Los Angles? They have absolutely no connection to the concept of the book, other than the location. The Order is about the Initiative producing disposable super-heroes with touches upon celebrity culture.

[Will.S]

I'm kind of surprised but I guess I shouldn't be given it's low numbers and numerous other factors that were against it.

I was actually going to switch to TPB one some point because of monetary reasons so I dunno if I'll keep up with it until #10 in singles or in trade form.

[jester1436]

Fraction just talked in the word balloon podcast about Marvel letting them end the series the way they want. Frankly it would be pretty darn stupid and against the entire point of the book if they somehow broke the 1 year limit and become professional superheroes. The whole point of the series is that these are real heroes who got the chance to become superheroes. I think if the series ends as anything else than these people getting on with their lives reinspired to help people and seeing a new team take on the order legacy then the book would have ended on a really bad note.

But the problem with the 1 year time limit is that you can't measure a year in 12 issues, unless the book runs like that. At 10 issues, they've barely been around for a few months, much less a year so it seems really quick and disappointing, though I'm sure the ending will be great.

[Lunal]

Dammit. And dammit again. Looking more and more like the Marvel titles I continue to like the most are all going to be the non-mainstream stuff. Looking forward to the next short-lived greatness that comes along, then I guess.

[bulbasteve]

But the problem with the 1 year time limit is that you can't measure a year in 12 issues, unless the book runs like that. At 10 issues, they've barely been around for a few months, much less a year so it seems really quick and disappointing, though I'm sure the ending will be great.

Well heck it mentioned in the solicit they are depowered. And frankly, do you REALLY want them to be cannon fodder for Slott? Hell I am sure it will be disappointing for them too, but the point of the story is that they can do just as much good if not more without fancy powers.

And it ain't like we are gunna see more from them ever anyway :(

[Monty_Cristo]

Well heck it mentioned in the solicit they are depowered. And frankly, do you REALLY want them to be cannon fodder for Slott? Hell I am sure it will be disappointing for them too, but the point of the story is that they can do just as much good if not more without fancy powers.

And it ain't like we are gunna see more from them ever anyway :(

seems kind of defeatist. they aren't dead, yet. it's not like anyone ever expected to see Red-Nine again, afterall.

[Zero Hunter]

It already had great characters, awesome writing and beautiful art. The problem is that fans don't want to read new things.


Thats crap. Maybe the simple fact was not alot of fans wanted to read THIS new thing. I love new things when they appeal to me. This book didn't at all. I hate whenever a book like this dies and the fans of it always blame the other comics fans. Plus awesome writing, great characters, and beautiful art is just your opinion. You saw a great book. I saw a book with art and characters I didn't care for spinning out of an event I wasn't real crazy about. If they really wanted to do this book they should have just started out with 8-12 issue mini series and seen waht the demand was before jumping in to an ongoing.

[lonewolf23k]

Dammit! Why is it good, creative titles like Nextwave and The Order get canned, while crap like Brand New Day sells like hotcakes?!

[Will.S]

Dammit! Why is it good, creative titles like Nextwave and The Order get canned, while crap like Brand New Day sells like hotcakes?!
*shrugs*

I think even a low selling Spider-Man title will always outsell the no-name ones like Nextwave and the Order regardless of how good they were.

[reddog]

honestly i wish people actually cried foul with the whole New Warriors responsible for Stamford, but being some one who always gravited towards the less popular books im really numb to cancellations like this anymore.

[DDM]

But "The Champions" as a title is out of the question. They can't publish a book under that title and ultimately it's not a sellable title anyway. "The Champions" was something of a bomb, even if it was enjoyable, it's not a title that actually means anything like X-Men or Avengers.

Also, why would they include ANY of the original Champions of Los Angles? They have absolutely no connection to the concept of the book, other than the location. The Order is about the Initiative producing disposable super-heroes with touches upon celebrity culture.

Then Marvel should have scrapped The Order before it ever got published & started from scratch. As it is, The Order is a bland team with a bland concept. And this is why the book did not stand out. Marvel had been hyping The Order as The Champions before the order came down to change the name...

[dademan]

What the hell? I was wary of The Order when I first got it (orignally since it was only on like, issue 3 at the time). Didn't care for it at the start, but I got used to the characters. Calamity is amazing.

But then again, if its Issue 10...number 7 is coming out tommarow...3 more issues...would land is smack-dab during the Secret Invasion, right? What if it signals an end to The Initiative? :eek: Something to think about. Gotta look on the brighter side of this :(

[Joe Franklin]

I feel no shame whatsoever. I didn't like the premise from the start so I wasn't going to waste my money. Sorry you lost a book you liked, but this happens to niche books all the time.

Same here. I don't like Kitson's old school Ordaway art style, so this is why I never bought an issue of the Order.

[DDM]

What the hell? I was wary of The Order when I first got it (orignally since it was only on like, issue 3 at the time). Didn't care for it at the start, but I got used to the characters. Calamity is amazing.

But then again, if its Issue 10...number 7 is coming out tommarow...3 more issues...would land is smack-dab during the Secret Invasion, right? What if it signals an end to The Initiative? :eek: Something to think about. Gotta look on the brighter side of this :(

Well, in 30 years the book may become an obscure gem such as the original Ms. Marvel, Spider-Woman, & Iron Fist has become.

[dademan]

Although I haven't read Ms. Marvel, Iron Fist, or Spider-Woman, I understand ya DDM; And we can only hope for that...or an eventual revival.

[Matthew K.]

Well, in 30 years the book may become an obscure gem such as the original Ms. Marvel, Spider-Woman, & Iron Fist has become.

Strange and sad that some obscure "gems" get cancelled, only to shine years later when the masses "dig them up" from the rubble.

Perhaps it's strange and sadder that some never get uncovered. As long as they make some people happy or bring joy I guess that's what matters.

[Monty_Cristo]

The Order would make an awesome team of villains, imo. they have enough power to give the Mighty Avengers a good fight (if the Sentry is somehow neutralized). it would be a shame since some of them are very likable (of course).

[Sean Whitmore]

Dammit! Why is it good, creative titles like Nextwave and The Order get canned, while crap like Brand New Day sells like hotcakes?!

Gee, I dunno.

Have we heard of "Spider-Man"?


SEAN

[Nightstar1441]

Every idea needs to start somewhere Sean - pity this one never really was given a chance...

[Sean Whitmore]

Every idea needs to start somewhere Sean - pity this one never really was given a chance...

Hey, I liked it too. But that doesn't change the absurdity of asking "why does Spider-Man sell more than Nextwave and The Order".


SEAN

[LungerTony]

I am sad about this. I enjoyed the Order, even though I didn't want to. I didn't want to add an on-going, but it was really good.

I hate you all for not buying this comic. I know what it feels like to be an Ant-Man fan. I finally understand their pain...

[Sean Whitmore]

I hate you all for not buying this comic. I know what it feels like to be an Ant-Man fan. I finally understand their pain...

Hell, I go through this every other month, it seems. Ant-Man, Nextwave, any comic Christopher Priest has ever worked on....


SEAN

[Nightstar1441]

Hey, I liked it too. But that doesn't change the absurdity of asking "why does Spider-Man sell more than Nextwave and The Order".


SEAN

Not questioning that in the least...more in reference to the name recognition. Spider-Man sells because he's the franchise, he would not have lasted 40+ years if he had not...still, they keep screwing with him like they are...they may just start chasing the die hards away.

Still...would have liked to see the Order devlop a little further.

[Rock It Raccoon]

Thats crap. Maybe the simple fact was not alot of fans wanted to read THIS new thing. I love new things when they appeal to me. This book didn't at all. I hate whenever a book like this dies and the fans of it always blame the other comics fans. Plus awesome writing, great characters, and beautiful art is just your opinion. You saw a great book. I saw a book with art and characters I didn't care for spinning out of an event I wasn't real crazy about. If they really wanted to do this book they should have just started out with 8-12 issue mini series and seen waht the demand was before jumping in to an ongoing.

is the event you're "not real crazy about" CW? cause that would be a pretty weak reason to not read this book. i mean, i can understand some people got problems with kitson's art... thats preference, whatever, but CW had f-all to do with this book.

also, if you don't like the characters, i have to ask: how much of the series have you read? because each individual issue is structured around a single interviewee, not to mention the more standard trials and tribulations of a modern superhero, characters that i felt no immediate connection to became more and more interesting as i kept reading. if you asked me what i thought about it after having only read the 2nd or so issue i may have been indifferent, but its definitely one of those books that rewards people who stick with it. looked at on a superficial level i can easily admit that this series isn't exactly reinventing the wheel, but the way the characters develop has been nothing short of brilliant, and thats the kind of thing you'll only notice if you read it. and therein lies the problem. ergo, comics fans blame other comics fans... whose side are you on?;)

[Maestro]

Why not bring Wolverine, a team-up with the Avengers, and some Skrulls to pump sales up? It's not fair how Black Panther gets thirty issues because of tie-ins to anything and everything but The Order doesn't even last a year.

[Vegetarian Goat]

Man, i LOVED this comic!! It was the best original idea Marvel's had since Runaways. :(

[TotalWorldDomination]

Why not bring Wolverine, a team-up with the Avengers, and some Skrulls to pump sales up? It's not fair how Black Panthers gets thirty issues because of tie-ins to anything and everything but The Order doesn't even last a year.

Seriously. Marvel should have given the Order untill after Secret Invasion... this way they could have seen a bump from the tie-ins that were bound to happen and see if anyone would stick around. the last issue is the same month as SI! you couldn't give them a few more issues that you KNOW will sell because they are tie-ins?

[LungerTony]

is the event you're "not real crazy about" CW? cause that would be a pretty weak reason to not read this book. i mean, i can understand some people got problems with kitson's art... thats preference, whatever, but CW had f-all to do with this book.

also, if you don't like the characters, i have to ask: how much of the series have you read? because each individual issue is structured around a single interviewee, not to mention the more standard trials and tribulations of a modern superhero, characters that i felt no immediate connection to became more and more interesting as i kept reading. if you asked me what i thought about it after having only read the 2nd or so issue i may have been indifferent, but its definitely one of those books that rewards people who stick with it. looked at on a superficial level i can easily admit that this series isn't exactly reinventing the wheel, but the way the characters develop has been nothing short of brilliant, and thats the kind of thing you'll only notice if you read it. and therein lies the problem. ergo, comics fans blame other comics fans... whose side are you on?;)

I agree totally. Some people whine and moan that they didn't like the characters, and that there wasn't enough action. Ok. You like mindless action. The Order had action, but it wasn't all over the place. That's understandable.
But not liking the characters? Wtf. Did you bother to read it. Did you only read a single issue. Because every issue was dedicated to a single character in the Order's line-up, thus enhancing the team's characterization. There was a broad spectrum of likeable characters. In fact, with the exception of Mulholland, I actually found them all to be really interesting people. If you like X-Factor, than the Order was the gem you never bought and now is no more.
If you like teh X-Treme!!!11 action, then I can see why you the Order wasn't your cup of tea.
But not liking the characters is a lame reason to not like it, because more than likely, you never even read it enough or even gave the book a chance to sell its characters.

Again, so many people talk about how awesome Matt Fraction is, but then don't even give this book the chance.

And I agree with TotalWorld Domination:
I am really surprised they didn't atleast give them an SI tie-in, similar to Heroes for Hire. Wierd imo.

Final Thought: I don't think the Order as team will be gone from marvel Universe. The Initiative is too big of a thing, and has had too much development in the MU to just disband the Order. More than likely there book will be gone, but they will remain as "Cali's Super-Team."

[shaxberd]

People keep talking about how the team's name was really bad and should be changed, that it would have sold better as anything else besides, 'The Order.'

Is there any chance that this is the plan? Announcing that the book is canceled creates hype in and of itself, and people who weren't checking it out before now might because more people are talking about it in threads like this. 'The Order' ends at issue ten, but then comes back later in a new title under a different, better, and more commercial successful name.

A bit optimistic, I know, but it's possible. This is a good book, telling a kind of story I want to read that I can't find in other books. Thoughts?

[The Sword Is Drawn]

Didn't know where else to put this. And I didn't want to start a new thread. [I did. -ED]

From Comics Continuum:

The Order #10 will be the final issue of the Marvel titles.

Not surprised, but obviously disappointed. :(

This book was something different, and I have been enjoying it an awful lot.

[steve2275]

considering kitsons art is nowhere near as good as it was on legion im not suprised

[filterpunk]

I like the series well enough, but I can't help thinking that it would've worked a lot better if it had been completely disconnected from the Initiative. Fraction seemed to struggle with having to include that stuff anyway, particularly when it comes to writing Tony Stark in a way that isn't completely ridiculous.

Guess this means they'll have to grind out another X-Men or Avengers ongoing to make up for it. Hey, look at that, New Exiles #1! Way to fill that status quo, Marvel!

[The Sword Is Drawn]

Guess this means they'll have to grind out another X-Men or Avengers ongoing to make up for it. Hey, look at that, New Exiles #1! Way to fill that status quo, Marvel!

X-Force, surely? :rolleyes:

[beetheb]

Of course they canceled the title, it was way too smart and fun to remain in the Marvel U for long.

Marvel - The House of Bad Ideas.

I know it wasn't burning up the charts or anything, but I thought it was selling at least well enough to remain in print.

[filterpunk]

X-Force, surely? :rolleyes:

I actually think X-Force, at least in terms of the basic concept, would work really well if it were written properly. Turn it into a MAX title, have the group operate completely independent of the X-Men, and put together a team of people who actually would take a more revolutionary/guerilla approach, like Mystique, and it would at least be believable. It's also completely impossible, since it'd basically be a book that humanizes the idea of mutant terrorists. So instead, they have Cyclops telling Wolverine (who already has two titles of his own) that they're going to effectively start a death squad, but don't tell Emma Frost, the psychic dominatrix, because she doesn't need to know. Say what?

When they're flooding the market with redundant books, it's no wonder people aren't stopping to even flip through books like The Order. One little book full of unfamiliar characters can't compete against that kind of oversaturation.

[Crimson]

I was leaving the book with #7 but I may stick around for the last 3 issues just to see the end.

Of course they canceled the title, it was way too smart and fun to remain in the Marvel U for long.

Marvel - The House of Bad Ideas.

I know it wasn't burning up the charts or anything, but I thought it was selling at least well enough to remain in print.

But the feeling might be that its not worth keeping writer and artist on. Move them on to bigger and better things.

[HeckBoy]

Sigh. And this was one of the books I was actually going to stick with. A couple weeks ago, I was deciding which books to keep and which to drop, and although I was wavering on the Order, I finally decided to keep it. But I guess now I don't have to worry about it. I guess I'll just finish up the series.

[Mr.EZ]

Well, The Initiative characters will be graduating to main teams soon, perhaps we'll get to see a mishmash of the 2 books together in a new series.

[jadrax]

I know it wasn't burning up the charts or anything, but I thought it was selling at least well enough to remain in print.

It was haemorrhaging readers pretty fast, which is a shame as it started out with ok figures.

Again we see that launching any kind of new title seems doomed in this marketplace.

[Dirkner]

So sad.

I really liked everyone on the team and the writing was quite good.

The Order will be missed for sure.

[Beast]

Well, The Initiative characters will be graduating to main teams soon, perhaps we'll get to see a mishmash of the 2 books together in a new series.
Doubtful. The solicit for #10 suggests everyone gets depowered.

[gorthon616]

While I didn't read the title, I'm sad it is canceled as it was always on my "one of these days I'll read it" list. Sort of like X-Force/X-Statix, which lingered around for a long time before I got around to reading it and falling in love with it. Apparently this time around I won't be getting that chance.

In defense of it's cancellation though, the book was not without it's flaws (I dabbled with reading it from time to time). Though what book isn't? In any case, I hope the team gets to work on something else, I can tell they were very talented even though this particular work didn't click with me.

[AndyinColor]

NO! My roommate and I love The Order. What is California going to do without them? Haha....

But in all seriousness, I loved the creative team... the artist's renderings of the facial reactions during the interview parts were amazing. They did a good job weaving multiple stories in and out, and it was nice to finally have a team connected to California in comics!

[Frank]

For me The Order was the comic I was the most excited about in a long time before it came out. But after an initial strong first issue where members were killed and dismissed and there was the origin story for the leader(and former Tony Star stand in lol)...the momentum pretty much slowed down drastically. I kid you not I read last issue and I didn't know what was going on, I didn't know who was who and couldn't remember what had happened before. And didn't care. Bottom line I thought it was going to be more imaginative. And when I saw the Soviet Super Soldiers in promos it was the fun I wanted it to be. But when I read the story it did not deliver at all. Especially the artwork, at some points it didn't even look like Barry Kitson. It reminds a little of Avengers: the Initiative where you feel like it should be better than it really is and there's great ideas but there should be a great book there...somewhere Maybe it's because this post-CW idea that is too diluded and Fraction and Slott should team-up as writing partners on the Initiative with a stronger artist like Kitson at the helm. Instead of just being a training ground for new heroes, you could have stories about various hero teams from different States with Barry Kitson having a ball designing new heroes and new teams and concepts. It wouldn't just be about one group of unknowns, it wouldn't just be about training new characters but it would be a book about many things..about the whole progect.

[CyberCoyote]

Yeah, this was a 'gotta get to reading it' book for me, too. Too bad, but will all ten issues be collected in one TPB? That'd be swell :)

Too bad they didn't get someone who can write their own contracts on this, Millar just tells Marvel how many issues he's gonna do of something and what he's gonna do with it and it's automatically approved. Others aren't so lucky :( Yeah, I know, sales. Stupid profits, get in the way of businesses all the time, I guess if more folks with my 'check this out eventually' attitude actually picked it up it wouldn't end so quick..

[O'Blivion]

From Comics Continuum:

The Order #10 will be the final issue of the Marvel titles.

Dammit, another new Marvel title I was actually enjoying gets canceled before it has a chance to take root!? Oh well, that's $2.99 less Marvel will get from me on a monthly basis. I only hope some of the characters will be picked up and used productively by Marvel somewhere down the road.

[Porcelain]

That sucks. Only just found it and really enjoyed it.

[carabas]

And thus another book joins the ranks of Wildcats 3.0, Aztek, Welcome To Tranquility, Chase, X-statiX, Automatic Kafka, Felon, Hitman, Fallen Angel (got a second chance, but the IDW never equalled the brilliance of the DC run), even Jack Kirby's New Gods and Mister Miracle, and many others...

I think that for American comics to finally grow, DC and Marvel need to go completely out of business, or they need to stop publishing Superman, JLA, Avengers, Spider-Man, X-Men, batman etcetera.

[Firemane]

And thus another book joins the ranks of Wildcats 3.0, Aztek, Welcome To Tranquility, Chase, X-statiX, Automatic Kafka, Felon, Hitman, Fallen Angel (got a second chance, but the IDW never equalled the brilliance of the DC run), even Jack Kirby's New Gods and Mister Miracle, and many others...

I think that for American comics to finally grow, DC and Marvel need to go completely out of business, or they need to stop publishing Superman, JLA, Avengers, Spider-Man, X-Men, batman etcetera.

Two things have to happen, the companies have to stop pandering to the fans and the fans have to accept comics for what they are, comics.

[Zero Hunter]

And thus another book joins the ranks of Wildcats 3.0, Aztek, Welcome To Tranquility, Chase, X-statiX, Automatic Kafka, Felon, Hitman, Fallen Angel (got a second chance, but the IDW never equalled the brilliance of the DC run), even Jack Kirby's New Gods and Mister Miracle, and many others...

I think that for American comics to finally grow, DC and Marvel need to go completely out of business, or they need to stop publishing Superman, JLA, Avengers, Spider-Man, X-Men, batman etcetera.


So you basically want American comics to die? Without the big two pretty much every comic store in America would close, and that would petty much kill off most of the smaller publishers since they would not be able to get there product sold anywhere then. It is jsut a hard fact of life in that you have to have the big books so that sometimes you can get the smaller niche book.

[ddqfpluskick]

At first I hated the Order. I thought Henry should have been killed and the whole thing nixed. Now that I've seen how things have developed I'm not happy with it being cancelled. I mean when ya really got behind the characters and seenwhat drove them to become the Order the pressure on Henry and the problems of running a newly formed team ya really liked the order.

[carabas]

So you basically want American comics to die?No, I just want 95% of the market to be not taken up superheroes who've run out of steam ages ago and now are just basically doing reruns of decades old stories, at the expence of some excellent and genuinely original books.
Something has gone very wrong with the industry when Brandnew Day and Ultimates 3 are chart toppers, while books like Criminal or Kabuki or The Losers or Queen & Country struggle to survive.
It is jsut a hard fact of life in that you have to have the big books so that sometimes you can get the smaller niche book.I find it utterly ludicrous that everything that's not decades old children's characters is considered to be 'niche'. In any other countries, books like Queen & Country and Sin city and Preacher would have been top 10 books, while superheroes are an incredibly tiny niche.

[Quarterwolf]

Ah another book gets cancelled and who does everyone blame?

The Marvel Standard books that make publishing these books even possible. Yes X-Books sell well. And yes Spider-Man books sell well. And it is because of those books that we get books like The Order, Nextwave and so on.

So whining like a bunch of children being put onto timeout cause your book was cancelled while PROVEN properties that you don't read are doing well kinda strikes me as...Immature.

So yes it is a sad day becuase the order was cancelled. But don't blame the books that are selling well. Blame Marvel for not trying to push it better and YOURSELVES for not getting more people to read it.

[carabas]

The Marvel Standard books that make publishing these books even possible. Yes X-Books sell well. And yes Spider-Man books sell well. And it is because of those books that we get books like The Order, Nextwave and so on.Not quite. In theory, sure. Like George Cloony does the occasional blockbuster so that he can make Solaris, regardles of how much money it loses. Or Grant Morrison doing 52 in exchange for Seaman 2 (postponed until after Final Crisis, presumably).
But here we have a bunch of Avengers and Spider-Man books competing and essentially killing a smaller book, pushing it off the shelves.

If the entire Marvel and DC shared superhero universes cut back their output by a lot, it would benefit smaller books.

[Agent_Torpor]

And thus another book joins the ranks of Wildcats 3.0, Aztek, Welcome To Tranquility, Chase, X-statiX, Automatic Kafka, Felon, Hitman, Fallen Angel (got a second chance, but the IDW never equalled the brilliance of the DC run), even Jack Kirby's New Gods and Mister Miracle, and many others...

I think that for American comics to finally grow, DC and Marvel need to go completely out of business, or they need to stop publishing Superman, JLA, Avengers, Spider-Man, X-Men, batman etcetera.



Lol, yeah, that makes sense! The only reason Marvel and DC can take creative risks with books like The Order is that they publish monster sellers like Spider-Man, Batman, X-books, and the like.

And don't automatically assume that independents will fill the void left by the Big Two and produce reams of quality art and prose.

[Quarterwolf]

Not quite. In theory, sure. Like George Cloony does the occasional blockbuster so that he can make Solaris, regardles of how much money it loses. Or Grant Morrison doing 52 in exchange for Seaman 2 (postponed until after Final Crisis, presumably).
But here we have a bunch of Avengers and Spider-Man books competing and essentially killing a smaller book, pushing it off the shelves.

If the entire Marvel and DC shared superhero universes cut back their output by a lot, it would benefit smaller books.

Except that the Order is a Avengers book in most sence of the word. They are a part of the Initiative like the Avengers are.

And I doubt that any amont of pruning of the better selling titles would help books like the Order. If people wanted to buy it they would have. BUT THEY DID NOT.

[Berkey]

The problem isn't the large titles overshadowing the smaller ones, rather the small titles not using the larger ones to their advantage. If the Order would have tied in other well knowns (spiderman, Avengers, FF) that alone would have helped the sales maybe not a huge jump, but I'd bet anything it would increase to some degree. Not to mention if they had lets say the New Avengers make an apperance, then in an upcomming NA issue placed an editors note talking about an incident that happened in the Order I'm sure some people might be intrested in that and at least pick it up and flip through it.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

After the Champions name wasn't allowed they should have called the book ; AVENGERS : THE CHAMPIONS. (This way they could tie it into the Avengers name and get as DDM posted way...way back 18-24 issues.

[carabas]

The problem isn't the large titles overshadowing the smaller ones, rather the small titles not using the larger ones to their advantage. If the Order would have tied in other well knowns (spiderman, Avengers, FF) that alone would have helped the sales maybe not a huge jump, but I'd bet anything it would increase to some degree. Not to mention if they had lets say the New Avengers make an apperance, then in an upcomming NA issue placed an editors note talking about an incident that happened in the Order I'm sure some people might be intrested in that and at least pick it up and flip through it.If The Order had appearances of the NEw Avengers and had tied into a bunch of other books, Matt Fraction wouldn't have bothered writing it, and it simply would not have been The Order, but yet another Avengers book with precious litle identity to call its own.
Plus, this approach doesn't really help books not set in the sodding Marvel universe. If 95% of everything wasn't superheroes, and hyper-continuityladen superheroes at that, people would by more non-capes books. and people who don't like superheroes, or have outgrown them, or simply wouldn't be caught dead reading superheroes, would buy a lot more comics than they do now.

I suppose it's hard for an American to imagine no capes books ina comics top 100 best sellers, but that's how it is in pretty much everywhere except America. Comics also tend to sell better everywhere else too.

[Berkey]

If The Order had appearances of the NEw Avengers and had tied into a bunch of other books, Matt Fraction wouldn't have bothered writing it, and it simply would not have been The Order, but yet another Avengers book with precious litle identity to call its own.
.

I don't see how Avengers would have taken over the title if say NA rolled through Cali and the Order were ordered to arrest them and then they had a battle, got their asses handed to them and the NA escaped. It's not like they would have joined them or anything.

I didn't mean consistant appearances by members of other teams, but rather a stepping stone to help the new titles get off to a good start by trying to bring in die hard avenger fans(or spiderman, FF etc) who like to read all Avengers activities, then perhaps they might say yeah the Order is an alright title I'll give it a go for a little while.

[filterpunk]

It is jsut a hard fact of life in that you have to have the big books so that sometimes you can get the smaller niche book.

It's not a fact, it's conjecture. There are many types of media where the mainstream industry and the underground/independent industry can operate completely independent of one another. While it's true that the smaller industry is not often prosperous enough for creators to make a living at their craft, they continue to create simply because they feel compelled to. In turn, people who appreciate that work open stores and a means of distribution that is in no way, shape, or form connected to the mainstream.

Take, for instance, music. I predominantly listen to industrial and electronic music (and no, I'm not referring to things like Korn, Nine Inch Nails, or Marilyn Manson), the majority of which is too "out there" to be carried in 99.9% of retail stores. By your rationale, this music would simply die without being attached to the massive record companies that churn out manufactured pop/rock/country/hip-hop. Judging by the 1200 or so records and cds sitting to my left, you would be mistaken.

This scenario is not impossible in comics and while some creators would stop creating due to their inability to make a living, dozens more would step up to create work they believe to be worthwhile simply because they want to.

As for quality, there will always be underground/small press comics with piss-poor production values, poor art, and poor writing, but it's a pretty silly assumption to say that nobody could match the "collective brilliance" of Marvel and DC. Remember, these companies are pretty much being defined these days by people who came from the trenches of small press.

The bottom line is that nobody is buying the small, niche books because retailers aren't even ordering them because nobody's buying them because Marvel/DC are continuously preying on readers inability to stop dry humping the same comics they read when they were 12. I can find 200 copies of Uncanny X-Men on a given week, but have to hunt and peck for an issue of Bomb Queen or Queen & Country. This isn't an accident.

[carabas]

I didn't mean consistant appearances by members of other teams, but rather a stepping stone to help the new titles get off to a good start by trying to bring in die hard avenger fans(or spiderman, FF etc) who like to read all Avengers activities, then perhaps they might say yeah the Order is an alright title I'll give it a go for a little while.I think this sort of thing stopped working about ten years ago. At most you get a slight sales boost in the issue that Spidey or the avengers actually appear in.

Unles of course they play a significant part in the book, but then you're no longer reading The Order.

Plus, Tony Stark was in a couple of issues. And Pepper Potts was on the team. And they were under the umbrella of the Initiative semi-event.

[Berkey]

I think this sort of thing stopped working about ten years ago. At most you get a slight sales boost in the issue that Spidey or the avengers actually appear in.

Unles of course they play a significant part in the book, but then you're no longer reading The Order.

Plus, Tony Stark was in a couple of issues. And Pepper Potts was on the team. And they were under the umbrella of the Initiative semi-event.

Very true, but I guess it also doesn't help that books are now 2.99-3.50 an issues so that also plays a huge role as to if people will pick up smaller titles in addition to their usual.

[Agent_Torpor]

I suppose it's hard for an American to imagine no capes books ina comics top 100 best sellers, but that's how it is in pretty much everywhere except America. Comics also tend to sell better everywhere else too.

Aren't you so-much-more civilized folks supposed to be beyond baseless generalizations?

[Blade X]

Didn't know where else to put this. And I didn't want to start a new thread. [I did. -ED]

From Comics Continuum:

The Order #10 will be the final issue of the Marvel titles.

I'm not surprised. Sales on the book were falling like a rock.

And while I thought the book itself was at best decent and interesting, I can't say I'm all that sad to see it canceled.

I said it before, and I'll say it again. CIVIL WAR and the INITIATIVE, which THE ORDER sprung out of, DOES NOT work in the context of the MARVEL UNIVERSE.

I predict that NEW WARRIORS will be canceled next.

[Berkey]

I'm not surprised. Sales on the book were falling like a rock.

And while I thought the book itself was at best decent and interesting, I can't say I'm all that sad to see it canceled.

I said it before, and I'll say it again. CIVIL WAR and the INITIATIVE, which THE ORDER sprung out of, DOES NOT work in the context of the MARVEL UNIVERSE.

I predict that NEW WARRIORS will be canceled next.

Agreed. Taking politics to the comics is one thing, but I think they bit off more than they could chew and their ideas spawing from what were supposed to be two great ideas are now falling off the charts. Sad, but not unexpected.

[Blade X]

Dammit! Why is it good, creative titles like Nextwave and The Order get canned, while crap like Brand New Day sells like hotcakes?!

Because the over whelming majority of today's comic readers are made up of older teens and adults who are either unwilling or can't afford to give new characters and books a try. Especially, if those new characters and books have nothing to do what so ever with more popular and/or better known characters.

This is what happens when a comic book company caters almost exclusively to it's existing and shrinking older teen and adult readership, who have been reading comics since they were little kids.

[carabas]

Aren't you so-much-more civilized folks supposed to be beyond baseless generalizations?Rubbing people's nose in it and being condescending are trademarks of civilisation, according to Conan anyways.
Meanwhile, Marvel and DC struggle to sell more than a 200,000 issues of their best-selling worldwide. Dargaud easily sells a couple of million copies of a new Astérix in France alone. And when you look at manga sales in Japan you get to really insane sales numbers in excess of tens of millions.

[Hatut Zeraze]

It already had great characters, awesome writing and beautiful art. The problem is that fans don't want to read new things.

Some fans don't. Other fans, like myself, regularly try new things, but can't afford to follow every new thing that looks good that is put out by every company. Sometimes I have to say to myself, "I know this is probably good, but I can't afford every good comic being produced."

I've jumped on the bandwagon of a new, fresh comic many times and had it cancelled in a short time, and I will again. I'm sorry to all you Order fans that I didn't jump on this one, but it sounds like it wouldn't have helped much anyway. :(

[JoshuaCee]

Some fans don't. Other fans, like myself, regularly try new things, but can't afford to follow every new thing that looks good that is put out by every company. Sometimes I have to say to myself, "I know this is probably good, but I can't afford every good comic being produced."

I've jumped on the bandwagon of a new, fresh comic many times and had it cancelled in a short time, and I will again. I'm sorry to all you Order fans that I didn't jump on this one, but it sounds like it wouldn't have helped much anyway. :(

Money definitey plays a factor for some people. Comics ain't cheap, and Marvel had a great way of increasing readership that they botched. They could have offered downloadable comics at a discounted rate, similar to iTunes. Instead, they chose to go the route of subscription fees and non-downloadable content. Marvel seems to be content in shooting itself in the foot as of late.

[Berkey]

This is what happens when a comic book company caters almost exclusively to it's existing and shrinking older teen and adult readership, who have been reading comics since they were little kids.

Yup, I never see any kids in the shop anymore. It's all adults and teens like you said. The reason why these titles can't be successful to an extent is that there isn't any new blood coming into the comic world any more.

Rubbing people's nose in it and being condescending are trademarks of civilisation, according to Conan anyways.
Meanwhile, Marvel and DC struggle to sell more than a 200,000 issues of their best-selling worldwide. Dargaud easily sells a couple of million copies of a new Astérix in France alone. And when you look at manga sales in Japan you get to really insane sales numbers in excess of tens of millions.

You got that right Japan puts books like those out like America puts out best selling novels. I don't think it would be so much as to making a character a "non-cape" to have great sells because as it is in our culture comics are looked upon as nerdy and uncool (except to us of course) so even if Marvel put out a comic like Asterix I don't think it would sell b/c of everyones concerns about how they are viewed by others and not soley on the fact they they might enjoy something that is out of the norm. Adults couldn't put their pride aside and possibly admit that they like comics, so basically what I'm saying is we'll almost never get a surge of adults to pick up comic reading the only adults that read today are those who have been reading a while now (for the most part) Novels can reach sales figures in the millions by other people recomending it to others or just by a person walking by and fliping through it (like we do with comics) but that can't happen to comics because most adults wouldn't be caught dead in a comic store even it within the walls were great stories.It's a shame.

[Berkey]

repost my bad

[Zero Hunter]

If The Order had appearances of the NEw Avengers and had tied into a bunch of other books, Matt Fraction wouldn't have bothered writing it, and it simply would not have been The Order, but yet another Avengers book with precious litle identity to call its own.
Plus, this approach doesn't really help books not set in the sodding Marvel universe. If 95% of everything wasn't superheroes, and hyper-continuityladen superheroes at that, people would by more non-capes books. and people who don't like superheroes, or have outgrown them, or simply wouldn't be caught dead reading superheroes, would buy a lot more comics than they do now.

I suppose it's hard for an American to imagine no capes books ina comics top 100 best sellers, but that's how it is in pretty much everywhere except America. Comics also tend to sell better everywhere else too.

People would buy more noncape stuff. Where? No store in America could survive without the cape books. I take that bakc there might be a few very small stores in the big cities that might be able to make it, but outside of that I don't see any other stores staying open. And if that happened alot of people would just give up and stop buying comics. Not suddenly turn to noncape type stuff.

I know it is hard for you to understand but some people actully still do like "cape" books. Some are just fun to read.

[carabas]

When did I ever say I didn't like cape books? This week I had Wonedr Woman, Teen Titans, X-Men, Legion Of Superheroes, Ult. Fantastic Four in my pull box, as wel as Umbrella Academy, Dan Dare, Hellblazer, DMZ, and Looker.
It's just that there's too much of them and they are suffocating the art form.
The American comics industry is a very sick, diseased creature, and it'll take some amputations for it to get better, as well as courage and lots of money on the part of the industry leaders. And with 'better' I don't mean the slight increases of the last few years, but going back to selling a few million copies of Action comics every month. Or, more likely, selling a few million copies of the new Superman graphic novel twice a year.

What you have to realise is that comics shops are a big part of the problem, and most of them going belly up would be a good thing in the long run. Japan and France do not rely on specialised comics shops to sell the bulk of their comics output. And neither did America before the LCS ghetto was created.

[Rock It Raccoon]

When did I ever say I didn't like cape books? This week I had Wonedr Woman, Teen Titans, X-Men, Legion Of Superheroes, Ult. Fantastic Four in my pull box, as wel as Umbrella Academy, Dan Dare, Hellblazer, DMZ, and Looker.
It's just that there's too much of them and they are suffocating the art form.
The American comics industry is a very sick, diseased creature, and it'll take some amputations for it to get better, as well as courage and lots of money on the part of the industry leaders. And with 'better' I don't mean the slight increases of the last few years, but going back to selling a few million copies of Action comics every month. Or, more likely, selling a few million copies of the new Superman graphic novel twice a year.

What you have to realise is that comics shops are a big part of the problem, and most of them going belly up would be a good thing in the long run. Japan and France do not rely on specialised comics shops to sell the bulk of their comics output. And neither did America before the LCS ghetto was created.

bah. now there's a reductive view of the situation. the europeans were printing illustrated magazines well before anything resembling an american comic market was established. so yes. whoopeedoo. europeans did it first, and as such they have what might be called a "richer" tradition. the american comic book market was always smaller in scope, then managed to grow out of its niche to incorporate a far larger market than was expected. think about eisner, kirby, kane... they all came from what was essentially a single origin (new york jews write funny books with pictures) and managed to take a footnote of print media turn it into a valid artform that still is being expanded and built upon over half a century later.

what i guess im trying to say is no, of course superhero comics are not the only comics that should be made. and sure, there is a disproportionate number of them, but it also helps to distinguish comics from other sequential art formats, creating a sense of identity shared between comics buyers and creators (not to mention the continuity sort-of shared by disparate titles, writers and artists) that truly sets the comic reader apart.

you could just as easily say that manga is suffocating the japanese art form... is everyone's head shaped like a triangle? will eisner realized in the early 40's that he could use "the spirit" to tell the kinds of stories he wanted. just because he was using a guy in a mask didnt mean that he was artistically crippled. i dunno. i'm currently writing my thesis about the postwar boom in comics... didnt mean to go on an off topic rant.

yes. the order. good. me sad.

[LungerTony]

When did I ever say I didn't like cape books? This week I had Wonedr Woman, Teen Titans, X-Men, Legion Of Superheroes, Ult. Fantastic Four in my pull box, as wel as Umbrella Academy, Dan Dare, Hellblazer, DMZ, and Looker.
It's just that there's too much of them and they are suffocating the art form.
The American comics industry is a very sick, diseased creature, and it'll take some amputations for it to get better, as well as courage and lots of money on the part of the industry leaders. And with 'better' I don't mean the slight increases of the last few years, but going back to selling a few million copies of Action comics every month. Or, more likely, selling a few million copies of the new Superman graphic novel twice a year.

What you have to realise is that comics shops are a big part of the problem, and most of them going belly up would be a good thing in the long run. Japan and France do not rely on specialised comics shops to sell the bulk of their comics output. And neither did America before the LCS ghetto was created.

Your exaggerating. "Cape" comics is simply American culture and tradition. You don't have to like it, and it doesn't have to change. The only one I notice here who feels it should is you.
Anyway, even though 'cape' comics don't sell as high as manga-junk in Japan or stuff in France, it certainly is appreicated by the larger American population...even if they aren't buying comics. Characters like Spider-man, Hulk, and Batman, etc. permeate throughout American society. The fact that most of their movies are so successful, along with shows, and merchandise, I really feel substantiate this. And though there aren't many young comic readers, there is no less of an appreication of 'cape' characters. Young children still watch the Spider-man and JLA shows on Sat. mornings or whatever, and buy related toys, etc. all the time near the holidays and stuff.
Though LCS certainly make a large portion of comic retail, they don't monopolize it by any means. When I was younger, I used to buy my comics from the local 7-11. There aren't many 7-11s here in the south where I live now, but I still see comics in supermarkets, wal-marts, and bookstores.
As far as selling millions of copies of Action Comics again...I never even knew they used to sell that much. But anyway, I think it has a lot to do with the economy...and less to do with the state of American comics. I don't know for certain, but I imagine the 1950s was much more condusive to buying comics for 15 cents, and with all the extra money American families found themselves with, with the booming economy. We are on the verge of a possible recession in America right now - comics are at a fairly expensive 2.99...or more oftenly at 3.99. People just don't have the extra money like they used to. That's my educated guess.
I don't feel 'capes' suffocate the art form in American comics either. I find lots of non-capes stuff to read.
And like Rock It Raccoon mentioned, I certainly find manga suffocating all art in Japan. All I ever see from Japan is anime - realistically, do they draw anything else?

[carabas]

you could just as easily say that manga is suffocating the japanese art form... is everyone's head shaped like a triangle?
I certainly find manga suffocating all art in Japan. All I ever see from Japan is anime - realistically, do they draw anything else?Sidenote: manga is Japanese for comics. Manga is not a genre like superheroes, western, crime, or nurse romances.
Saying mange is suffocating the Japanese comics industry is like saying the 22 page pamflet is suffocating the American one. Or that CDs are suffocating the music industry.
And saying that all manga looks alike betrays an ignorance on the subject.

[carabas]

Your exaggerating. "Cape" comics is simply American culture and tradition. You don't have to like it, and it doesn't have to change.Question: the vast majority of comics readers are in their thirties or older. New readers are a rarity. If the current generation dies out, does the American comics industry go with them?
American culture and tradition has more types of story than just superheroes, I imagine. Why is it that war stories, or spy stories, or romcom stories don't sell as comics?

Anyway, even though 'cape' comics don't sell as high as manga-junk in Japan or stuff in France, it certainly is appreicated by the larger American population...even if they aren't buying comics. Characters like Spider-man, Hulk, and Batman, etc. permeate throughout American society. The fact that most of their movies are so successful, along with shows, and merchandise, I really feel substantiate this.Largely irrelevant to the discussion. Spider-Man may be one of the most popular character in American culture, and make Marvel billions in merchandising and movies, but as long as his comics sell less than 100,000 out of a possible millions, there is a problem. The discussion isn't about the movie or lunchbox industries, it's about the comics industry, and why it is so marginalised.

And though there aren't many young comic readers, there is no less of an appreication of 'cape' characters. Young children still watch the Spider-man and JLA shows on Sat. mornings or whatever, and buy related toys, etc. all the time near the holidays and stuff.Again irrelevant. At best this means the characters will live on on DVD once comics cease to exist.

But anyway, I think it has a lot to do with the economy...and less to do with the state of American comics. I don't know for certain, but I imagine the 1950s was much more condusive to buying comics for 15 cents, and with all the extra money American families found themselves with, with the booming economy.Comics have not increased in price disproportionate to other items since the fifties.
We are on the verge of a possible recession in America right now - comics are at a fairly expensive 2.99...or more oftenly at 3.99. People just don't have the extra money like they used to. That's my educated guess.
I don't feel 'capes' suffocate the art form in American comics either. I find lots of non-capes stuff to read.While $3 for 22 pages of story is incredibly bad value for money, I don't feel like this is the basis of the problem. Sales started to diminish drastically when comics were a third of their current price. And regardles of the state of the economy, people have more disposable money than ever before oin American history. If anything, the economy has gone down in the last 8 years, while comics sales have gone (ever so slightly) up.

Finally, I don't begrudge cape books their place at the top, I simply find it ludicrous that no non-superhero book even managed to break into the top 20 in probably a decade or so (with the very strange exception of Buffy The Vampire Slayer now), nor are there any actually new characters in there either. There aren't even any characters created after the seventies that manage to be succesful on their own. That's just sick.

[ddqfpluskick]

I think with Buffy, it's because it's the only media source for continuation of the story.

[DoctorDoom]

Rubbing people's nose in it and being condescending are trademarks of civilisation, according to Conan anyways.
Meanwhile, Marvel and DC struggle to sell more than a 200,000 issues of their best-selling worldwide. Dargaud easily sells a couple of million copies of a new Astérix in France alone. And when you look at manga sales in Japan you get to really insane sales numbers in excess of tens of millions.
Hey, he's got a point. But there's no way a cutback of that magnitude will ever happen, especially not the big two.



What you have to realise is that comics shops are a big part of the problem, and most of them going belly up would be a good thing in the long run. Japan and France do not rely on specialised comics shops to sell the bulk of their comics output. And neither did America before the LCS ghetto was created.

I respect your opinion, but as for someone who has worked in a comic shop, I have to disagree.


And like Rock It Raccoon mentioned, I certainly find manga suffocating all art in Japan. All I ever see from Japan is anime - realistically, do they draw anything else?

Are you serious? Anime is just Japanese animation, the equivalent of ...well, American animation. So you could say all we do is American Animation. That makes no sense.

[Rock It Raccoon]

just to clarify I dont think manga is suffocating anything... it seems pretty obvious that its thriving, and i think american comics are too... but also there's a visual vocabulary for these things.

[DoctorDoom]

just to clarify I dont think manga is suffocating anything... it seems pretty obvious that its thriving, and i think american comics are too... but also there's a visual vocabulary for these things.
Oh I wasn't commenting off of you...just the poster that commented off you.

[Berkey]

You got that right Japan puts books like those out like America puts out best selling novels. I don't think it would be so much as to making a character a "non-cape" to have great sells because as it is in our culture comics are looked upon as nerdy and uncool (except to us of course) so even if Marvel put out a comic like Asterix I don't think it would sell b/c of everyones concerns about how they are viewed by others and not soley on the fact they they might enjoy something that is out of the norm. Adults couldn't put their pride aside and possibly admit that they like comics, so basically what I'm saying is we'll almost never get a surge of adults to pick up comic reading the only adults that read today are those who have been reading a while now (for the most part) Novels can reach sales figures in the millions by other people recomending it to others or just by a person walking by and fliping through it (like we do with comics) but that can't happen to comics because most adults wouldn't be caught dead in a comic store even it within the walls were great stories.It's a shame.

Again I have to think this ^^^ is one of the reasons why we can't bring in any new readers to comics. It's not so much the price or we don't sell them in stores other than comic shops, but rather just how we are viewed. I'm a personal trainer and work at the gyms on campus, when I stroll down the street to the comic shop people always look twice to see this meat head (although I don't consider myself that:D ) walk into the comic store with what they would consider 'nerds'. 90% of other guys like myself can't bring themsleves to enter the store or let alone even pick up a comic book and try to read it, it's just funny to see that happen.
I bet if you took a comic story and changed all the characters from Superman to John Doe and put it into a novel with no pictures, it just might sell to all sorts of people. Then, when you told everyone that it was based off a comic book and more stories with the same great quality will continue in upcomming comics, most people still wouldn't read a comic book. It's the same way with the recent movies. People love X-men or FF and know all about the characters and get all excited over them, but god forbid they would pick up a comic and read it even though they just watched a comic on the big screen. I suppose this country just dosen't read as much as it should.

Sorry for the rant, but it makes me so mad.:mad:

[thorionthei]

I am sad. I loved the story and the art. Liked seeing a Marvel California team. Got excited with the recent Black Dahlia storyline.

With that said I completely understand why it failed. I think the quality was top notch BUT it need more Marvel connections.

These characters all have these really unique powers? It seems Hank Pym and Tony Stark are the reasons. Give us more info on that. Sure they gave us lots of character info so they weren't generic but the powers were.

I have to agree with the name as well. It just didn't do anything for me. I still think of the evil Defenders. (i thought it was a great name for them!)

So far the 50 state initiative idea is horrible. It has just created a bunch of generic superheroes everywhere. I guess it was all a plan for Marvel to kill these guys off during Secret Invasion.

[whome?]

Okay. I've been hearing rumors about the cancellation of The Order. Can someone confirm, deny , give me a link to the announcement?

It's one of my top picks every month and I just want to know if it's true or not.

Thanks!

kjf!

[bulbasteve]

Yeah it's cancelled with issue 10. You can find a large discussion about it in the Marvel Universe forum (since I guess The Order technically isn't an avengers title regardless of the Fifty State stuff).

[whome?]

Yeah Thanks, found it.

This bums me out. But at least it'll be 10 straight great issues: a better run than most comics have.

kjf!

[bulbasteve]

Except now I'm reading it yelling at Namor cause I want the other characters to have more screentime! Every panel counts :eek:

[LungerTony]

When i was saying manga and anime...I meant the art style. Big stupid eyes - non-existent nose. Ridiculous sized mouths. The style. I don't know what its called if by saying anime or manga, it terribly confuses you.

[Crimson]

When did I ever say I didn't like cape books? This week I had Wonedr Woman, Teen Titans, X-Men, Legion Of Superheroes, Ult. Fantastic Four in my pull box, as wel as Umbrella Academy, Dan Dare, Hellblazer, DMZ, and Looker.
It's just that there's too much of them and they are suffocating the art form.
The American comics industry is a very sick, diseased creature, and it'll take some amputations for it to get better, as well as courage and lots of money on the part of the industry leaders. And with 'better' I don't mean the slight increases of the last few years, but going back to selling a few million copies of Action comics every month. Or, more likely, selling a few million copies of the new Superman graphic novel twice a year.

What you have to realise is that comics shops are a big part of the problem, and most of them going belly up would be a good thing in the long run. Japan and France do not rely on specialised comics shops to sell the bulk of their comics output. And neither did America before the LCS ghetto was created.

See, we all ask for more now cape stuff... yet the indy companies that put out alot of non-cape stuff, don't sell anywhere near as well.

I don't think there is any proof non-superhero stuff could take over the market anytime soon.

[40yearoldnovafan]

Double post

[40yearoldnovafan]

I read an interview somewhere yesterday, that it's being canceled, but not really. That it's being retooled and re-released - that it will look a bit different. If I remember where I read it, I'll let you know.

I think comics cost too much for people to purchase new titles, to give more of their cash to something that many people think is child's fair. We continue to read every X-men and Avengers tie ins, because they are old friends. Even when the tie ins suck. I'm guilty of it. My comic shop gives me a 20% discount and I still pay $120.00 every few weeks. I buy everything that I'm interested in, and its a lot. But some of it has been sitting around unread for months, sometime even a year or so.

My favorite title is Nova, and then Astonishing Xmen and Black Summer. Nova is getting a readership of approximately 30,000 and Black Summer gets far less. But in my opinion they are two of the best, most interesting titles. But they do not have Avengers or X-men in the title.

Like I said, comics cost far more than they did when I was a kid. At that time you could by many titles for under $10.00. If a new title came out, it would not cost you $1.00 to give it a try. Now when a new title comes out, it costs three dollars and many will not add the thing to their pull lists.

Most of our jobs pay crap any way, so we don't make enough money to pay the rent, let alone comics. (I'm a Fed, so I have security and make a decent penny, so I'm good).

Add to that, comic shops are not everywhere, I have to drive +80 miles to pick up my stuff. I know people in my town who used to by comics. But stopped reading once the owner died, the shop vanished, and the closest shop is now 80 miles away.

[Beast]

To be fair, the price now isn't much different than the price then by comparison. You're ignoring the fact that while prices have gone up, so has everything. And so has people's paychecks. That's inflation for you.

[Berkey]

I wonder if Mavrel made the first ten issues of a new series lower in price to try and bring more people in, then raised it to a normal price once it became a little more popular. I know it would cost money, but you know the old saying you gotta spend money to make money. If

[bluedmighty]

Why not bring Wolverine, a team-up with the Avengers, and some Skrulls to pump sales up? It's not fair how Black Panther gets thirty issues because of tie-ins to anything and everything but The Order doesn't even last a year.

I'm sorry the book got canceled.
I tried it, didn't like it.

But this is an example of Hating.

The Panther has made it because, contrary to popular internet opinion, it has a loyal following that enjoy the book.

Worstblogever posted this in the Black Panther Appreciation thread:

December Sales figures... BP is down... again.

93 38.38 $2.99 MAR X-Men Die By the Sword #5 27,304 #4 30,272 -2,968 -9.80% 0
94 36.96 $2.99 MAR Order v2007 5 26,293 +4 29,735 -3,442 -11.58% 2
95 36.39 $2.99 MAR Black Panther v2005 #33 25,888 #32 28,415 -2,527 -8.89% 0
96 35.75 $2.99 MAR Ms Marvel #22 25,433 #21 26,474 -1,041 -3.93% 0
97 35.66 $2.99 DC Gotham Underground #3 25,369 #2 26,527 -1,158 -4.37% 0
98 34.83 $3.99 MAR X-Men Messiah Complex Mutant Files 24,778
99 34.72 $2.99 DC Birds of Prey #113 24,700 #112 25,108 -408 -1.62% 0
100 34.52 $2.99 DC Fables #68 24,558 #67 24,831 -273 -1.10% 0
101 34.34 $2.99 MAR Order v2007 6 24,429 5 26,293 -1,864 -7.09% 0
102 33.78 $2.99 IMA Darkness #1 24,031
103 33.55 $2.99 MAR Cable Deadpool #48 23,867 #47 24,379 -512 -2.10% 0

I bolded BP, and in bold and red are books within the same ~25,000 mark (give or take 2,000) that have already been announced by Marvel for cancellation. The sales figures on this book have dropped 20%, 10%, 10%, 9%... maybe it's long since time Marvel did give another writer the reins on this title... if not, they have to hope that Secret Invasion gives it a shot in the arm in... four months? Five?

[Expletive Deleted]

To be fair, the price now isn't much different than the price then by comparison.Yes, it is. Something that cost twelve cents in 1963 should cost around seventy-seven cents today.

Inflation plays a role in comic book price increases, but I think the bigger factor is the increased cost of production. Comic book companies are (among other things) using better paper, using more technologically sophisticated printing methods, and paying their creators a less penurious wage.

[Excelsior]

Because the over whelming majority of today's comic readers are made up of older teens and adults who are either unwilling or can't afford to give new characters and books a try. Especially, if those new characters and books have nothing to do what so ever with more popular and/or better known characters.

This is what happens when a comic book company caters almost exclusively to it's existing and shrinking older teen and adult readership, who have been reading comics since they were little kids.


According to market researcher Ipsos-NPD, consumers bought roughly the same number of books as they did in the year prior- about 1.6 billion. The latest Ipsos-NPD BookTrends(SM) study, a survey of more than 12,000 nationally representative households, found that consumers spent $12.6 billion on books, up nearly 1% from the previous year.

General adult trade books accounted for more than two-thirds of all books bought. Books bought for children under 14 years of age comprised 28% of total book purchases , and the teenage/young adult market (14-17 years) represented about 3%. In the latest Ipsos-NPD BookTrends study, it was the children's segment that struggled the most buying slipped by 4%. The adult trade book market fared somewhat better, growing slightly less than 1%

HARRY POTTER BOOKS PURCHASED BY AGE OF INTENDED READER
Percentage of Books Purchased in the U.S.

Age of Intended Reader------------------2000-----------------1999

Under 14------------------------------41%----------------------------------57%
14 and older--------------------------59%---------------------------------43%


Furthermore,

Are the same shoppers who cruise the aisles at the book superstore around the corner the same ones surfing the supersites on the Web? A snapshot of the in-store book buyer provided by the American Booksellers Association, based on 1997 figures, shows that buyers tend to be college-educated, married people between the ages of 35 and 54, with a higher-than-average annual household income. The typical book-store book buyer has an average age of 42 years and a median annual income of $39,900. More than half are married, and 60 percent do not have children in their households. Women (53 percent) are slightly more likely than men (47 percent) to buy books.

The online shopper, on the other hand, is slightly more likely to be male than female (51 percent male, versus 49 percent female), says Jupiter's Cassar, according to data on the typical online shopper who made purchases in November and December 1998. Cassar stresses that these numbers are for holiday shoppers making purchases in all categories and not just books, but he maintains that the profile they represent is suggestive of the online shopper in general. More than two in five online shoppers (44 percent) are between the ages of 35 and 49, while 30 percent are under the age of 35, and 26 percent are aged 50 and older. While 44 percent of online shoppers have annual household incomes between $35,000 and $75,000, 36 percent have household incomes of $75,000 and higher, and just 20 percent have annual household incomes lower than $35,000.

[filterpunk]

Yes, it is. Something that cost twelve cents in 1963 should cost around seventy-seven cents today.

Inflation plays a role in comic book price increases, but I think the bigger factor is the increased cost of production. Comic book companies are (among other things) using better paper, using more technologically sophisticated printing methods, and paying their creators a less penurious wage.

Not to mention, there are a lot of other factors that make maintaining a weekly comic habit kind of difficult to maintain. Unemployment, the costs of healthcare, medical prescriptions, gas prices, college, groceries, rent, mortgage loans, credit card debt, higher qualifications for lesser pay and longer hours...you get the idea.

$2.99 per book adds up pretty fast when you're spending upwards of $1000-2000 a month just taking care of your basic responsibilities and that figure has taking a noticeable jump (at least for us) just in the last few years. Toss in that the cost of education has also gone up and that leaves a pretty large number of people who are unable to simply "get a better job" and will steadily be forced to tighten their wallets even more as prices go up.

[carabas]

The Panther has made it because, contrary to popular internet opinion, it has a loyal following that enjoy the book.Black Panther is just a shambles. Ties in with everything Matrvel publishes, including Marvel Zombies, gets a celebrity writer, gets a portion of the X-fan legion via storm, and now that for the first time in ages it is unsuppoerted by an event, it's selling barely above cancelation levels.

Noteworthy, Christopher Priest managed about the same numbers by virtue of just solid writing,

[bluedmighty]

Black Panther is just a shambles. Ties in with everything Matrvel publishes, including Marvel Zombies, gets a celebrity writer, gets a portion of the X-fan legion via storm, and now that for the first time in ages it is unsuppoerted by an event, it's selling barely above cancelation levels.

Noteworthy, Christopher Priest managed about the same numbers by virtue of just solid writing,

My intention was not to hyjack.

I'm sorry the book is getting cancelled.

We can debate in another thread.

Also,

What ever happened to the Handicapped Black guy?

Did he make it to the end of the series?

[carabas]

Yeah, in retrospect, that post does not really belong in this thread. Sorry about that.

[Expletive Deleted]

What ever happened to the Handicapped Black guy?

Did he make it to the end of the series?Last we saw him (before the incident with Namor took center stage), he was stranded in the desert, without his armor and his backup, surrounded by giant mutated monsters. We'll presumably see what happens to him next in #8.

[Lombardo!]

didnt pick it up due to having too many books on the pull list as it is

that said, it is always tragic when a book gets cancelled.

[Weapon Ick]

It's sad when good comics get cancelled because of bad sales and bad comics stay around because of good sales. If I could be in charge of Marvel I would keep The Order and cancel New Warriors.

I always got the impression that Marvel cared about artistry and wasn't just basing decisions on the numbers. Maybe I was wrong. It's like how the Fox network operates and it just seems sleazy to me.

[Joe Franklin]

It's sad when good comics get cancelled because of bad sales and bad comics stay around because of good sales.


Good and bad comics opinions are just that, opinions. For every fan of the Order, there is a non-fan like myself who never bought it. I don't like the concept or the art on the Order, but that does not make it bad, nor does it make it good because of my not buying it. We all have our own tastes in what we like in comic books, and all comic books published are good reads in some people's opinions, and bad reads in other's opinions. You are not the authority on good or bad comic books, and I am not the authority on good or bad comic books. We lik what we like, and it's that simple. I don't like the Order, and you do, and both of us are right, even though we don't agree on what we like in a comic book.:)

[Weapon Ick]

Good and bad comics opinions are just that, opinions. For every fan of the Order, there is a non-fan like myself who never bought it. I don't like the concept or the art on the Order, but that does not make it bad, nor does it make it good because of my not buying it. We all have our own tastes in what we like in comic books, and all comic books published are good reads in some people's opinions, and bad reads in other's opinions. You are not the authority on good or bad comic books, and I am not the authority on good or bad comic books. We lik what we like, and it's that simple. I don't like the Order, and you do, and both of us are right, even though we don't agree on what we like in a comic book.:)

I understand your point but I disagree. Liking something does not make it good. When it comes to art there is good art and there is bad art. There are standards on which it is judged. There is plenty of bad art that I like. There is plenty of good art that I like. If the Order were bad I would say it's bad but that I still like it.

Cuisine is art right? I like Mcdonald's hamburgers but I'm not gonna pretend like they are masterpieces in the art of cuisine. They are bad. No one can argue with that but I still like them. There's bad music I like and good music I hate. The same applies to comics. The standards cannot be based on personal opinion.

[Joe Franklin]

The standards cannot be based on personal opinion.

Then provide me a basis for the standard? Who's opinion is the standard? Thanks.:)

[Berkey]

Good and bad comics opinions are just that, opinions. For every fan of the Order, there is a non-fan like myself who never bought it. I don't like the concept or the art on the Order, but that does not make it bad, nor does it make it good because of my not buying it. We all have our own tastes in what we like in comic books, and all comic books published are good reads in some people's opinions, and bad reads in other's opinions. You are not the authority on good or bad comic books, and I am not the authority on good or bad comic books. We lik what we like, and it's that simple. I don't like the Order, and you do, and both of us are right, even though we don't agree on what we like in a comic book.:)

I like the way you think. Opinions are basically what makes the world what it is. I mean is the Order a good book? yes to some no to others. Sales will say maybe it's not a good book, but there's always people who like it. Take this example to the real world, murder is considered wrong and we are taught bad, but to some people it's not wrong it's just a solution to a problem or they are just sick, not that I agree with them, but their views are diffrent regardless of what they are taught or told. I don't know where I was going with that really, but I get into this debate a lot mainly about books and movies where one person will say he thought this book was bad and another will call him stupid and say no matter what he thinks it's a good book. Almost everything is a matter of opinion.

[Weapon Ick]

Then provide me a basis for the standard? Who's opinion is the standard? Thanks.:)

That's true. It is all based a personal opinion. But until I can enter a mcdonalds hamburger on Iron Chef we have to accept that standards exist.

I maintain the opinion that good comics and bad comics exist but I don't know who gets to decide which qualities are good and bad.

[Joe Franklin]

I maintain the opinion that good comics and bad comics exist but I don't know who gets to decide which qualities are good and bad.

You can't decide the determining party. Fiction is purely subjective, because it is pure fantasy, and not a real life event. It's just a made up story, with drawn pictures included sometimes.:)

[carabas]

You can't decide the determining party. Fiction is purely subjective, because it is pure fantasy, and not a real life event. It's just a made up story, with drawn pictures included sometimes.:)The only thing that is subjective about fiction os whether or not you like it.

Storytelling is a craft, with its own laws and rules, just like painting, sculpting, music... If those rules aren't followed, you either have an interesting experimental work, or hackery, the difference being that in the case of the former, it's been done on purpose (cubism, for example).

You can compare it to music... a tune can be good, but if the person performing it really can't play guitar...

Take Civil War and Kingdom Come. Both basically the same story about superheroes, collateral damage, accountability, and fascism. Same tune, with minor variants.
Kingdom come is performed by the London Symphony Orchestra, Civil War is performed on a banjo and set toa techno-beat.

[SeritoNiN]

Felt this book was horrible, read the first 6 issues, Matt Fraction is one of the worst writers in Marvel. His take on Punisher is a joke, this book was a boring mess, and he rides Brubaker's coat tails on Iron Fist.

[Lombardo!]

Felt this book was horrible, read the first 6 issues, Matt Fraction is one of the worst writers in Marvel. His take on Punisher is a joke, this book was a boring mess, and he rides Brubaker's coat tails on Iron Fist.

wow i have to really really respectfully disagree here

in Iron Fist, his contributive presence is apparent and excellent, and the book would change dramatically if either Bru OR Fraction were to depart.

his Punisher work, while being fored through tie in after tie in, has developed as a fantastic turn on the character, which is received very highly by both critics and audience

his Sensational Spider-Man Annual was probably the best Spider-Man issue in two/three years

and have you READ Casanova?!

[filterpunk]

Felt this book was horrible, read the first 6 issues, Matt Fraction is one of the worst writers in Marvel. His take on Punisher is a joke, this book was a boring mess, and he rides Brubaker's coat tails on Iron Fist.

Even though I've enjoyed The Order so far, I totally agree with you on Punisher War Journal. If I'm being polite, his writing on that book is generic and corny...if I'm being honest, I think it's complete and utter garbage, especially in comparison to Punisher MAX.

[Joe Franklin]

Take Civil War and Kingdom Come. Both basically the same story about superheroes, collateral damage, accountability, and fascism. Same tune, with minor variants.
Kingdom come is performed by the London Symphony Orchestra, Civil War is performed on a banjo and set toa techno-beat.

In your opinion. I prefer Civil War over Kingdom Come myself.:)

[XPac]

The only thing that is subjective about fiction os whether or not you like it.

Storytelling is a craft, with its own laws and rules, just like painting, sculpting, music... If those rules aren't followed, you either have an interesting experimental work, or hackery, the difference being that in the case of the former, it's been done on purpose (cubism, for example).

You can compare it to music... a tune can be good, but if the person performing it really can't play guitar...

Take Civil War and Kingdom Come. Both basically the same story about superheroes, collateral damage, accountability, and fascism. Same tune, with minor variants.
Kingdom come is performed by the London Symphony Orchestra, Civil War is performed on a banjo and set toa techno-beat.

You can't really compare Civil War to Kingdom Come though... CW is an in-continuity book. Kingdom Come is self contained.

CW thus can't change anything too much. In Kingdom Come, they can do whatever the heck they want. Comparing Kingdom Come to Gruenwalds Squadron Supreme, or Earth X would be fairer. It's more a comparrison of apples with apples.

[carabas]

You can't really compare Civil War to Kingdom Come though... CW is an in-continuity book. Kingdom Come is self contained.I compare stories with stories. Being in continuity is no excuse for (hah) continuity errors, spotty characterisation, messy motivations, and not really having an ending of some sort.

[Frank]

I think frankly the book wasn't the genius thing that it promised. If it would have been X-Statix-level as far good book with a lot of buzz I would still be on board.

But I think The Order was an experiment and as such it should have been tried as a mini-series first(in fact they should do that with super-heroes teams of every states). See I don't get Marvel management sometimes: they have a new book with characters nobody knows and they try it there cold on the market to fail or succeed on its own but then are afraid to have a Defenders book beyond a mini-series even though they are characters with a following. It seems to me a high concept like The Order should be taken at small doses at first while The Defenders with characters people loves is the sort of thing that should be appreciated over time in a more lenghty manner since it's not a "jump at you" concept.

Plus as a mini-series Fraction could have put all his eggs the same basket and make sure most of the great ideas he had would be shown in that mini-series since there would have been no garantee that there would have been The Order after that initial mini-series. So he would have made sure that this concept would have been strong as Hell when the fans buy the book. And at the same time as a fan you're willing to give more of a chance to a mini-series like this because you want to see how it's going to end. The perception also is that if I want to see how this new concept works, what it really is I'll have to buy the whole mini-series. Heck I left at issue 6 but I can garantee you that if it would have been a mini-series I would have stuck around to see how everything fits together, even if there's an "off" issue. On the other hand some readers would say:" I want to read a Defenders book but it's 5 issues now, so why bother? Unless something really revolutionary happens, in those initial issues I'll wait till a regular series comes out".

[jobies201]

In an interview with Newsarama

"NRAMA: Do you have anything you'd like to say about the book's cancellation or future plans for the characters?

Matt Fraction: That the book wasn't cancelled: I chose to end it. Marvel allowed me to choose to leave the stage, rather than to continue on in a state in which I felt was compromised and decidedly unawesome.

I don't think I was too clear about that on Word Balloon: it wasn't cancelled. I killed it. And if you're looking for the man that killed The Order, it was me.

Now watch, nobody's gonna read that and nobody's gonna care, because it's way more fun the other way. Oh well."

I wasn't aware of that. Just thought I would let people know.

[Monty_Cristo]

is that comic professional talk for "my characters suck" or "the Order would no longer make sense after secret invasion?"

[jobies201]

Hmm... I would guess a small mixture of both. Haha. But I know some people really liked that title, so I just thought I would throw out that little ego boost for them.

Honestly, I was not a fan of the comic. Apparently though, as Matt points out " 2 charachters are gonna do it!".... So stick around for that. ;)

[Jack]

is that comic professional talk for "my characters suck" or "the Order would no longer make sense after secret invasion?"
Sounds like the latter to me. Of course I liked the characters, once they got their own issue for backstory.

[Magneto_X]

Wonder why they didn't hire a replacement writer? :confused:

[DDM]

It's spin coming from the writer. His book was cancelled. And he chose to end it with issue #10.

The Sandman was a runaway success, yet Neil Gaiman chose to end to book; however, unlike The Order, The Sandman was not cancelled.

[Monty_Cristo]

Wonder why they didn't hire a replacement writer? :confused:

because the last story seems to involve the Order being depowered. what would be the point?

[Magneto_X]

because the last story seems to involve the Order being depowered. what would be the point?

They next writer could simply use that as a starting point (many heroes are powerless yet still fight crime successfully) or repower them via plot device.

[Expletive Deleted]

is that comic professional talk for "my characters suck" or "the Order would no longer make sense after secret invasion?"I interpreted it as "Barry Kitson's been moved to AMAZING SPIDER-MAN."

I'm kind of glad to hear that Fraction would rather end it on his own terms than put out a substandard product to stave off cancellation for (in all likelihood) only a few months.

[Expletive Deleted]

Wonder why they didn't hire a replacement writer? :confused:Because sales weren't good. Replacing Fraction with anyone other than a big name would only make it fall faster, and it doesn't pay to have a big name on a lower selling book. Better to let him end it on (and I realize I'm repeating myself, here) his own terms.

[Beast]

I interpreted it as "Barry Kitson's been moved to AMAZING SPIDER-MAN."

I'm kind of glad to hear that Fraction would rather end it on his own terms than put out a substandard product to stave off cancellation for (in all likelihood) only a few months.
Yeah. He could have went the Black Panther route and crossed it over with everything under the sun. ;)

[MrPrimeMinister]

He seems to have a bit of a hostile tone there, no?

[Beast]

He seems to have a bit of a hostile tone there, no?
A bit, but it's understandable. It's never fun to have something you put work into fail.

[bulbasteve]

Hmmm I figure maybe he meant Marvel wanted them to go into the Black Panther mode of saving a failing series and just have them be a tie-in book to every story (with I'm sure a good amount of Skrull reveals and crap).

[Excelsior]

Hmmm I figure maybe he meant Marvel wanted them to go into the Black Panther mode of saving a failing series and just have them be a tie-in book to every story (with I'm sure a good amount of Skrull reveals and crap).


OK i am PEEVED. Even when Fraction comes out and says he killed the book. You still have to come out of your mouth wrong toward Panther. Stop dissrespecting the readership Pal. I understand hes not your cup of tea, but so' what. Deal with it!


Kitson was leaving. And Matt knew, fans would drop the book without him handling the art chores. Which I think is the case for most failed titles..