Is Punisher the Least Liked Hero By Other Heroes?

[JigsawSnake]

CW#5 and 6 are old now but if they and other comics are any indication, quite a few superheroes have a rather low opinion of The Punisher and even have animosity towards him.

But is he the least liked?

[Expletive Deleted]

I don't think very many of them think he is a hero.

[StoneGold]

They don't really like Spider-Man very much.

[TotalWorldDomination]

I don't think very many of them think he is a hero.

I think that's his defining trait when dealing with the rest of the MU. When Punisher joins cap's side in CW it turns the collective stomach of the Anti-Reg movement. He's not so much a hero to his "peers" his that psychopath that guns down people in the street. He shoots first, shoots some more, blows up what he shot then dips the whole thing in a vat of sulfuric acid just to be safe and after all that is done, then and only then will he attempt to ask a question. and the question is usually "who's next?"

It's not that other heroes don't like him, it's that they treat him just like the rest of the psychos.

They don't really like Spider-Man very much.

I can imagine that post OMD they like him even less. Now instead of being that weird spider-guy who the Daily Bugle rails against and seems to constantly be in trouble but you know is good deep down cause you know him as a person, he's just strange.

Dan Slott put it best recently when he was paraphrasing Harry S. Truman- He may be a weirdo but he's OUR weirdo. (or at least I think that was the quote).

[Omega Alpha]

I don't think very many of them think he is a hero.

Yeah, they don't. Moon Knight is probably the 2nd least liked.

And Deadpool is pretty much unanimously considered to be the most annoying.

[XPac]

They don't really like Spider-Man very much.

I think most of the people that have worked with Spider-Man respect him. In fact for those that know him, I think he's one of the most respected heroes.

But I agree that a lot have a low opinion of him... JJJ decades long campaign against Peter had to leave some sort of impression.

[StoneGold]

But I agree that a lot have a low opinion of him... JJJ decades long campaign against Peter had to leave some sort of impression.

Actually, I think it's more he's always cracking with the wise. He's like Deadpool, except he's been doing it longer, and hangs out with other heroes more often.

[StoneGold]

I can imagine that post OMD they like him even less. Now instead of being that weird spider-guy who the Daily Bugle rails against and seems to constantly be in trouble but you know is good deep down cause you know him as a person, he's just strange.


The MTU issue where the bit occurred happened way before Civil War. They all know Spidey about the same as they did then. Well, except for the specific of Logan knowing his secret ID, I guess. But while Logan may have known he was Parker, it's not like he knew who Parker was, even after he knew who Parker was. He just hung out with Spidey. And occasionally flirted with his wife.



Actually, Logan probably hates him for those times Pete threw him out the window.

[Immortal]

Yeah, they don't. Moon Knight is probably the 2nd least liked.

And Deadpool is pretty much unanimously considered to be the most annoying.

Those three (Punisher, Moon Knight, and Deadpool) are my favorite Marvel characters. I like them for the exact reasons the MU hates them. They're brutal , they get to the point, and do what's necessary. But mainly, they're just so damn badass.

[rwe1138]

Nah, D-Man smells worse.

[z0mbie_aut0pil0t]

Actually, I think it's more he's always cracking with the wise. He's like Deadpool, except he's been doing it longer, and hangs out with other heroes more often.

I think Deadpool has probably been hurting people way longer than Parker has.

[dademan]

Nah, D-Man smells worse.


Hey now, I resent that...

[Capt USA]

Umm, he's not a hero, he's a serial killer.

The good side is that he's probably among the most liked of all the villains in the marvel universe since he gets to team up occasionally with heroes.

[JigsawSnake]

He's not a villain.
He's a real hero for putting the villains away. Not in prisons they always escape from.
Actually away for good.

[LungerTony]

I would definantly place Ant-Man and Deadpool above Punisher, on the basis that they are just annoying as hell to other characters.
I don't know much about Moon Knight...I imagine their dislike for him is the same reason though they dislike Punisher - not because of an annoying personality or something, but a diff. philosophy in justice/punishment.

And I don't see anyone mention it, but in certain circles of heroes, Iron Man is really disliked with a vengance.

I would also place Great Lakes Champions (is that what they call themselves now?). People tend to not like them much...cept for Hawkeye & Mockingbird in the past.

[rick]

The Punisher is not a hero.

He is a serial killer who picked "villians" as his choice of victims.

He is a great comic character, don't get me wrong, but it is a serious mistake to ever think of him as a hero.

[JigsawSnake]

You're right.
We should pick maybe Batman as a hero.
Nevermind if it was Punisher in Gotham, Joker be long dead and wouldn't have gotten the chance to nearly kill the universe....

Punisher is a soldier. Soldiers kill the enemy.
Is Punsiehr guilty of "war crimes"? Yes.
But calling him a serial killer is completely missing the whole point of his character and what serial killers actually are.

[rick]

You're right.
We should pick maybe Batman as a hero.
Nevermind if it was Punisher in Gotham, Joker be long dead and wouldn't have gotten the chance to nearly kill the universe....

Punisher is a soldier. Soldiers kill the enemy.
Is Punsiehr guilty of "war crimes"? Yes.
But calling him a serial killer is completely missing the whole point of his character and what serial killers actually are.


The definition of a serial killer is a person who has murdered more than 3 unrelated people and not at the same time.

That certainly describes Frank.

He might see himself as a soldier, but he isn't.

He is a man who has decided to kill those he has judged worthy of death.

Great comic character, but not a hero.

[Cthulhudrew]

I think the Great Lakes Initiative are the least liked.

[JigsawSnake]

I'd call Punisher a hero, Rick.
Difference of opinions and point-of-view.

[rick]

I'd call Punisher a hero, Rick.
Difference of opinions and point-of-view.


Well can we at least agree that it's probably for the best that he's fictional?

[Gilda Dent]

I don't think I'd say he's the least liked hero because he isn't a hero.

He might charitably be considered an antihero, a protagonist who is nominally on the side of good, but engages in behaviors generally not considered heroic or lacks identifiably heroic characteristics.

The Punisher's only positive characteristics are that he fights criminals, and tries to avoid killing innocents or heroes in the process.

Beyond that, however, Rick nailed it. He's a serial killer whose targets are criminals. He engages in classic serial killer behavior, repeatedly killing the person or people who triggered his psychosis. Some serial killers repeatedly kill their mother, or the girls that made fun of them in high school, etc. Frank is repeatedly killing the people who murdered his family.

He has a strict moral code he lives by that determines who should live and who should die, and we can sympathize with him because of how he came to be as he is and who he targets, this is true, but he's a psychotic whose actions are barely tolerable even within the comic book world because of who he kills.

He was introduced and played as a villain for the first several years, and only became a semi-heroic type as his popularity grew.

The other Marvel Supertypes don't see him as a hero, so I'd say the answer here is no.

I say all this as a fan of the character, at least the post "Welcome Back Frank" version.

[Beamish]

I'd add Moondragon to the list of do-gooders that other do-gooders can't stand. I'd say that most seasoned heroes, especially Avengers and Defenders, loath her cause she's a know-it-all, self-righteous, witch with a capital "B" who excels at trying to make just about everybody else feel inferior to her.

[aut0matic]

i would say hulk is the least liked hero, by far. espescially now, lol.

[rick]

I'd add Moondragon to the list of do-gooders that other do-gooders can't stand. I'd say that most seasoned heroes, especially Avengers and Defenders, loath her cause she's a know-it-all, self-righteous, witch with a capital "B" who excels at trying to make just about everybody else feel inferior to her.


Oh, good call.

Moondragon has always been the least likable legitimate superhero out there.

I was recently rereading a bunch of the Defenders issues with her on the team, and she is just plain awful.

[LungerTony]

I think we all can agree that Punisher is fits the "anti-hero" mold...

[JigsawSnake]

Well can we at least agree that it's probably for the best that he's fictional?

Why?
Someone killing the wealthy drug lords who run their criminal empires in prison while changing nothing isn't gonna upset me in the least.
Someone taking out a future Charles Manson or Ted Bundy early isn't gonna keep me up at night.
Capping a corrupt cop or politician who turn blind eyes to crime isn't gonna do anything but make me smile.

The Punisher deals out real justice. Not the phony jusitce other heroes think they are delivering when they lock up psychos who will only inevitably break out and kill more people.

When you call Frank a psycho serial killer you make it seem like he doesn't know what he's doing. He knows EXACTLy what he's doing and whom he's doing it to. The scum of the universe who deserve it.
His ideas of Right and Wrong aren't those of a lunatic. His methods are extreme but his actual criteria for Wrong is the exact same one as our cultur.

If he was real, he wouldn't be shooting random people saying "you're wrong! Now die!" He'd know who they were, what crimes they had commited, etc..

[Omega Alpha]

I'd add Moondragon to the list of do-gooders that other do-gooders can't stand. I'd say that most seasoned heroes, especially Avengers and Defenders, loath her cause she's a know-it-all, self-righteous, witch with a capital "B" who excels at trying to make just about everybody else feel inferior to her.

Yeah, but she's not that known outside the Avengers, so she's isn't that hated. Among the ones that are sold as heroes (because I agree the Punisher isn't, really), Castle is easily the most despised.

[matthewaos]

Punisher is a killer, who thinks he has a war going on with criminals. He is kind of hero, but one of the not so good ones. The people respect him for what he is, but not for what he is doing. If Punisher MAX is on continuity, I would imagine that most people in the MU don't really like him, since he has been away for quite some time, fighting only mafia guys and such. They would consider him something like a stranger to their world.
Spider-Man is respected, but I think that some didn't consider him in the cult of the big heroes, for some reason, maybe because most times he is a loner.
Same as DD. You could say that if you are not an avenger no one will take you seriously, as Moon Knight said.

[Capt USA]

You're right.
We should pick maybe Batman as a hero.
Nevermind if it was Punisher in Gotham, Joker be long dead and wouldn't have gotten the chance to nearly kill the universe....

Punisher is a soldier. Soldiers kill the enemy.
Is Punsiehr guilty of "war crimes"? Yes.
But calling him a serial killer is completely missing the whole point of his character and what serial killers actually are.

and in the united states, along with pretty much every other Civilized country in the world in the past 1500 years or so, the punisher actions have been rightfully considered criminal. Nobody has the right to take the law into their own hands, it's a failure of the system if you have a person as judge, jury and executioner.

Think of it this way, there have been dozens if not hundreds of people who have turned their life around in prison, and performed good, the punisher denies that chance, and and in many instances of his books some of the guys he's killed have been basically bodyguards for a bad guy.


sorry but there is no way where someone actively denies other people their basic fundamental rights is acceptable. I'm fine with self defense and even somewhat fine with rightful vengeance, but the punisher has crossed those lines dramatically to the point he is absolutely no better than those he hunts.

[ivesaidway2much]

and in the united states, along with pretty much every other Civilized country in the world in the past 1500 years or so, the punisher actions have been rightfully considered criminal. Nobody has the right to take the law into their own hands, it's a failure of the system if you have a person as judge, jury and executioner.

Think of it this way, there have been dozens if not hundreds of people who have turned their life around in prison, and performed good, the punisher denies that chance, and and in many instances of his books some of the guys he's killed have been basically bodyguards for a bad guy.


sorry but there is no way where someone actively denies other people their basic fundamental rights is acceptable. I'm fine with self defense and even somewhat fine with rightful vengeance, but the punisher has crossed those lines dramatically to the point he is absolutely no better than those he hunts.There aren't any consequences for villainous acts in the MU. Mass murderers like Kingpin, Bullseye, the Leader, and yes the Punisher too get caught and arrested on numerous occasion only to either be set free or escape shortly afterward. What's the point in reforming when you know sooner or later the Rhino or Electro or whoever is going to stop by and spring half the prison population anyway? In a world where a person can kill an entire town full of people and then be acquitted of any wrongdoing because of the way he gained his super powers someone needs to be judge, jury, and executioner. Why not the Punisher?

[JigsawSnake]

sorry but there is no way where someone actively denies other people their basic fundamental rights is acceptable

The Punisher agrees.
That's why The Punisher is good.
He fights against the system that does what you just described.

[JCurwen]

Why?
Someone killing the wealthy drug lords who run their criminal empires in prison while changing nothing isn't gonna upset me in the least.
Someone taking out a future Charles Manson or Ted Bundy early isn't gonna keep me up at night.
Capping a corrupt cop or politician who turn blind eyes to crime isn't gonna do anything but make me smile.

The Punisher deals out real justice. Not the phony jusitce other heroes think they are delivering when they lock up psychos who will only inevitably break out and kill more people.

When you call Frank a psycho serial killer you make it seem like he doesn't know what he's doing. He knows EXACTLy what he's doing and whom he's doing it to. The scum of the universe who deserve it.
His ideas of Right and Wrong aren't those of a lunatic. His methods are extreme but his actual criteria for Wrong is the exact same one as our cultur.

If he was real, he wouldn't be shooting random people saying "you're wrong! Now die!" He'd know who they were, what crimes they had commited, etc..
Um, no. He's a murderer who think he's above the law. He's not.

[Evil-Ryan]

Why?
Someone killing the wealthy drug lords who run their criminal empires in prison while changing nothing isn't gonna upset me in the least.
Someone taking out a future Charles Manson or Ted Bundy early isn't gonna keep me up at night.
Capping a corrupt cop or politician who turn blind eyes to crime isn't gonna do anything but make me smile.

The Punisher deals out real justice. Not the phony jusitce other heroes think they are delivering when they lock up psychos who will only inevitably break out and kill more people.

When you call Frank a psycho serial killer you make it seem like he doesn't know what he's doing. He knows EXACTLy what he's doing and whom he's doing it to. The scum of the universe who deserve it.
His ideas of Right and Wrong aren't those of a lunatic. His methods are extreme but his actual criteria for Wrong is the exact same one as our cultur.

If he was real, he wouldn't be shooting random people saying "you're wrong! Now die!" He'd know who they were, what crimes they had commited, etc..

These actions doesn't necessarily make him a "hero" either.

Yes, he only kills murderers, rapist, drug kingpins and general scum of the earth. But he's not doing it so fulfill some higher ethic and moral code. He's not doing it to protect the innocent. He's doing it because he hates them and they need to be punished for what they've done. He's said so himself.

Heroes uphold ideals that everyone should hope to live up to. The punisher never has and never will try to inspire others. He lives for only one thing, to punish evil.

He's not a hero, but he should never be called a villain either.

[rick]

Why?
Someone killing the wealthy drug lords who run their criminal empires in prison while changing nothing isn't gonna upset me in the least.
Someone taking out a future Charles Manson or Ted Bundy early isn't gonna keep me up at night.
Capping a corrupt cop or politician who turn blind eyes to crime isn't gonna do anything but make me smile.

The Punisher deals out real justice. Not the phony jusitce other heroes think they are delivering when they lock up psychos who will only inevitably break out and kill more people.

When you call Frank a psycho serial killer you make it seem like he doesn't know what he's doing. He knows EXACTLy what he's doing and whom he's doing it to. The scum of the universe who deserve it.
His ideas of Right and Wrong aren't those of a lunatic. His methods are extreme but his actual criteria for Wrong is the exact same one as our cultur.

If he was real, he wouldn't be shooting random people saying "you're wrong! Now die!" He'd know who they were, what crimes they had commited, etc..


Okay, first off serial killers normally are not legally insane, and I would included Frank in that bunch, so psycho is the wrong choice of words.


Secondly, let's pretend that you are accused of a violent crime and the trial is closed because of some kind of procedural error. Are you saying that you'd have no problem if I came over to your house and decide for myself that you are guilty and shoot you?

The reason I ask is because Frank does stuff like that all the time. Now of course being in a comic he gets to know who is innocent and guilty, but in real life it’s not always that clear.

[JigsawSnake]

Okay, first off serial killers normally are not legally insane, and I would included Frank in that bunch, so psycho is the wrong choice of words.

I didn't choose it. i was repeating it.

Secondly, let's pretend that you are accused of a violent crime and the trial is closed because of some kind of procedural error. Are you saying that you'd have no problem if I came over to your house and decide for myself that you are guilty and shoot you?

I'd have a problem with that.
But when has Punisher ever done that?
Just decided for himself if the person was guilty with no knowledge?

The reason I ask is because Frank does stuff like that all the time. Now of course being in a comic he gets to know who is innocent and guilty, but in real life it’s not always that clear.

That's true enough but Punisher researches his targets from what I've seen. In the real world, he won't risk going out and murdering someone just because.

[Trey]

Castle's a freakin hero. He saves people all the time. Both in the 80's/90's series and the current MAX.

Its hard to argue with someone who hasn't read the stories. Or hasn't read them close enough.

[Trey]

The definition of a serial killer is a person who has murdered more than 3 unrelated people and not at the same time.

That certainly describes Frank.

He might see himself as a soldier, but he isn't.

He is a man who has decided to kill those he has judged worthy of death.

Great comic character, but not a hero.

BUZZ Wrong.

by your definition, he's not a serial killer. All the people he's killed are related. They are all criminals. Is a gangbanger a serial Killer?

Don't make it sound like he has no control, or that he chooses random targets, or that he loses his mind.

He's a vigilante. An anti-hero. And he's done some freakin heroic things. He sacrifices his humanity, to make the world a better place. Ask the girls from "The Slavers."

Yeah I take this shit serious. Punks disparaging my boy, Castle.

[rick]

BUZZ Wrong.

by your definition, he's not a serial killer. All the people he's killed are related. They are all criminals. Is a gangbanger a serial Killer?

Don't make it sound like he has no control, or that he chooses random targets, or that he loses his mind.

He's a vigilante. An anti-hero. And he's done some freakin heroic things. He sacrifices his humanity, to make the world a better place. Ask the girls from "The Slavers."

Yeah I take this shit serious. Punks disparaging my boy, Castle.

Well I just happy you have someone out there to give you a little wish fulfillment. ;)

[boshobosho]

Frank Castle is just fine in my book.
I don't think of him as a hero, serial killer, or any of those other definitions. I think of him as a "deterrent"

[matthewaos]

If we consider Punisher The end though, things might be a little different. And in Born, he lead a guy to his death, so the war can continue, in a way.

[DoctorNemesis]

BUZZ Wrong.

by your definition, he's not a serial killer. All the people he's killed are related. They are all criminals. Is a gangbanger a serial Killer?

Don't make it sound like he has no control, or that he chooses random targets, or that he loses his mind.

Of course, many if not most serial killers also choose their victims based on a particular type, are capable of keeping control of themselves to frightening degrees and otherwise don't 'lose their minds'. They aren't all the psychotics who appear in slasher movies.

Just sayin'.

[Trey]

Well I just happy you have someone out there to give you a little wish fulfillment. ;)

Ha, you are right. It really is a wish fulfillment thing. I don't wanna be Castle tho. I wanna be Wolverine. :D

[Push You Down]

Quicksilver is the least liked. Come on! Those that know about House of M hate him and those that don't- just don't like him.

Name any friend that he has in the MU.... His sister. And she doesn't even remember him any more.

Hawkeye was probably the closest thing to a friendly acquaintance (see some of their interactions during Pietro's brief stint on West caost Avengers) he had and I'm pretty sure Hawkeye wouldn't like him now either.... or maybe be really conflicted since in-directly Pietro helped bring him back to life.

[Immortal]

The definition of a serial killer is a person who has murdered more than 3 unrelated people and not at the same time.

By that logic, the military war veteran who came back and was celebrated as a great hero because he killed (hypothetically) Hitler, Mussolini, and Stalin is a serial killer?

So my question is: In your opinion, can someone be a good serial killer if they are killing "bad" people?



Think of it this way, there have been dozens if not hundreds of people who have turned their life around in prison, and performed good, the punisher denies that chance, and and in many instances of his books some of the guys he's killed have been basically bodyguards for a bad guy.

The Punisher doesn't go around killing people who, "20 years ago committed a crime, went to prison, changed their ways, and now does good." He kills those who are still preying on the weak and exploiting people for their benefit. And the argument "Well if he arrested them and they go to jail, they might turn their lives around and maybe they will do good things. That is a HUGE maybe. I'm almost sure no one would think Jeffery Dhamer, Ted Bundy, or Timothy McVeigh might "change their ways."

About the bodyguards. If that "bad guy" kills someone and the bodyguards know about it or are present at the time, they are automatically considered an accomplice and can be tried with the same crimes as the "bad guy". So even by the standard of your "civilized justice system" the bodyguards are just as guilty as the "bad guy".

[Monty_Cristo]

And the argument "Well if he arrested them and they go to jail, they might turn their lives around and maybe they will do good things. That is a HUGE maybe. I'm almost sure no one would think Jeffery Dhamer, Ted Bundy, or Timothy McVeigh might "change their ways."

chances are that McVeigh would have. he was molded into a terrorist. it's not like he came up with his own idealogy. and Dahmer would never have gotten out.

[HaroldAllnut]

Name any friend that he has in the MU.... His sister. And she doesn't even remember him any more.

Waitaminute... You mean that she's back? :eek: I thought she was still MIA.

[aut0matic]

Waitaminute... You mean that she's back? :eek: I thought she was still MIA.

she showed up in new avengers a few months ago living in some small town in prague, apparently having no memory of her previous life or powers

[Capt USA]

Frank Castle is just fine in my book.
I don't think of him as a hero, serial killer, or any of those other definitions. I think of him as a "deterrent"

I'm pro-death penalty, just to start this out, but every study out there has flat out stated that capital punishment isn't a deterrent to crime.

If you are meaning he's a deterrent to prevent future crimes by that one particular person that he kills, then that is a different story, but his actions don't deter another person from doing crime.

[Monty_Cristo]

there's a small chance that Castle actually helps breed more criminals. the children of those bad guys Frank mows down could all become criminals out of a need for revenge.

[Capt USA]

By that logic, the military war veteran who came back and was celebrated as a great hero because he killed (hypothetically) Hitler, Mussolini, and Stalin is a serial killer?

So my question is: In your opinion, can someone be a good serial killer if they are killing "bad" people?




The Punisher doesn't go around killing people who, "20 years ago committed a crime, went to prison, changed their ways, and now does good." He kills those who are still preying on the weak and exploiting people for their benefit. And the argument "Well if he arrested them and they go to jail, they might turn their lives around and maybe they will do good things. That is a HUGE maybe. I'm almost sure no one would think Jeffery Dhamer, Ted Bundy, or Timothy McVeigh might "change their ways."

About the bodyguards. If that "bad guy" kills someone and the bodyguards know about it or are present at the time, they are automatically considered an accomplice and can be tried with the same crimes as the "bad guy". So even by the standard of your "civilized justice system" the bodyguards are just as guilty as the "bad guy".


my point is might turn their lives around is a huge point. And if Punisher was just doing the Dexter thing, killing the Dahmers, the Bundys or McVeigh then I would probably consider him more of a hero, or at least an anti-hero, but that isn't what he is doing, he killed microchip because microchip was knowingly allowing an illegal action to happen(can you imagine a guy like microship who helped punisher because he thought it was for the greater good, accepting another action for his thoughts of the greater good? what a shocker) Punisher kills goons (many who probably aren't truly bad guys, but guys working for a buck for a less than reputable person) He kills as an only resort not a last resort and that makes him a villain. I would prefer the punisher to take a lead from Mackey on the shield, who will actually falsify evidence to ensure he takes a legitimate bad guy down, that is manipulating the system for the greater good.(not that Mackey is a hero or anything, but he is cool, and so is the punisher, but he is not a hero or anything that you can put in a positive light)

[bjtrdff]

I don't know if straight dislike is the right word. It's probably a mixture of anger, sadness and fear. They see how Frank operates, and how in many ways, it's simple and final. They probably feel sad that this is what he's made of his life, and are scared of what they might become if they're pushed to that point.

[RaulTheCat]

Castle's a freakin hero. He saves people all the time. Both in the 80's/90's series and the current MAX.

Its hard to argue with someone who hasn't read the stories. Or hasn't read them close enough.

I've read the Punisher since the '70's, is it okay if I give my opinion?

Castle is a mass murderer. I really don't think he's a serial killer...as Micro says in 'In the Beginning', he doesn't derive any enjoyment from killing. He's not insane, he is a soldier that doesn't know how to stop. He is by no means a hero.

In 'Up is down, black is white', Castle describes the dream of not stopping after killing the criminals, that he would then turn his gun on everyone else, 'if my world ends, so does yours'.

Even Garth Ennis knows he's a mass murderer. You can't excuse his actions, because, quite frankly, there is no excuse. You can talk until you are blue in the face about 'criminals beating the system, blah, justice, blah, blah. That's not the point. This is entertainment. He's Dirty Harry, and the Outlaw Josey Wales. He's Charles Bronson, with grief and rage driving him. He's Rambo, with impossible odds and neverending bullets. He's John McClane, he takes a beating and keeps on ticking. He's wish fulfillment.

The MAX Punisher series is the best book that Marvel is producing right now. It's dark, thought provoking and above all, ENTERTAINING. Ennis is on par with Azarrello in writing crime stories, and the perfect choice to take over for him would be Azarrello.

[ThePhenom]

I don't know if he counts but the bulk of the heroes don't seem particularly fond of Namor...

[Michael P]

I don't think very many of them think he is a hero.

Because, of course, he isn't.

As for actual heroes the other heroes dislike most, probably Ghost Rider. He just creeps them out.

I don't know if he counts but the bulk of the heroes don't seem particularly fond of Namor...

Also a good call. He's heroic, just for ideals that don't necessarily always fall in line with those of the surface heroes.

[Exo]

Mob bosses and supervillains aren't the only items on the Punisher's menu. The Punisher is a psychotic killer. What signifies the Punisher is that he targets a certain group of people: criminals. If criminality was represented as a food chain, the Punisher would be at the top of it. The Punisher kills everyone and I do mean everyone. That includes doped up teenagers with anger issues, someone robbing a convenient store, jacking a car, burglars, pimps or whatever. The Punisher kills everyone and not all of them deserve to die IMO.

[Zero Hunter]

All the reason people have been saying is why I hate the Punisher now. When he first appeared he was definetly not an ally to the heroes. He fought Cap, Spiderman, and Daredevil many times because they knew he was nut job and a criminal. Castle actully went to jail a few times for his actions which is what should have a happened. Then he got popular and the writers started having the heroes turn a blind eye to what he was doing.

I liked Punisher when was a lone vigilante who had just as much touble with the heroes and the law as he did with the criminals he was hunting. It is when they started having Punisher "team up" with the heroes when it all started falling apart. Now he is just a killing machine that no one can stop. It a joke that a normal man in body armour can be in as many fights as Castle has and not have taken serious injury many times over.

[RaulTheCat]

All the reason people have been saying is why I hate the Punisher now. When he first appeared he was definetly not an ally to the heroes. He fought Cap, Spiderman, and Daredevil many times because they knew he was nut job and a criminal. Castle actully went to jail a few times for his actions which is what should have a happened. Then he got popular and the writers started having the heroes turn a blind eye to what he was doing.

I liked Punisher when was a lone vigilante who had just as much touble with the heroes and the law as he did with the criminals he was hunting. It is when they started having Punisher "team up" with the heroes when it all started falling apart. Now he is just a killing machine that no one can stop. It a joke that a normal man in body armour can be in as many fights as Castle has and not have taken serious injury many times over.

The MAX series is definitely set apart from the regular Marvel Universe. Only hero I've seen pop up is Nick Fury, and this was the MAX Fury. War Journal I read the first 6 or so issues...dropped it. It was kinda funny in the beginning, but not dark, subtle humor, more 'Ant-man' funny. Which is totally out of character for Castle.
For the Punisher to work right, you need to take him out of the super-hero community; I mean, really, if they wanted to put him away, they could have done it a LOOOOONG time ago. It makes sense to have more grounded stories.

[Berkey]

I believe he would be deemed an "Anti-Hero" meaing he doesn't like to hurt who he considers a good guy and does the bad guy. He's a military buff and in war it's kill or be killed and thats how he views it in the real world, War. He's prolly gone off the deep end a little bit, and at times he goes a little too far, but to some people killing is a business and sometimes the only way to be stopped or learn your lesson is to be put down for good.

[Magneto_X]

I don't know if straight dislike is the right word. It's probably a mixture of anger, sadness and fear. They see how Frank operates, and how in many ways, it's simple and final. They probably feel sad that this is what he's made of his life, and are scared of what they might become if they're pushed to that point.

That description fits Punisher's relationship with Daredevil perfectly.

Berkley:

He would be right at home with the pulp heroes like The Shadow.

[Berkey]

That description fits Punisher's relationship with Daredevil perfectly.

Berkley:

He would be right at home with the pulp heroes like The Shadow.

Not familiar with the Shadow?

And it's BERKEY (sorry not to bash, but I get that all the time every week:D )

[Astonishing X-Fan]

Doesn't Punisher often kill petty criminals, too?

I mean, I'm sure I've seen him kill "supervillains" that basically just rob banks.

That is not heroic in the slightest.

[matthewaos]

Well, yeah, those guys he killed in CW were not guys Frank usually kills, but I was thinking sbout it and think that there was no other option than killing them. Though they could have used some more recognizable characters.

[Dark Ben]

Forget Frank Castle, Henry Pym is the one sadly... even by his own side

[Omega Alpha]

my point is might turn their lives around is a huge point. And if Punisher was just doing the Dexter thing, killing the Dahmers, the Bundys or McVeigh then I would probably consider him more of a hero


The funny thing is that Dexter himself says without problems he's a psychopath, and he kills way less and people much more deservingly than many of the Punisher kills.

[Magneto_X]

Not familiar with the Shadow?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Shadow


And it's BERKEY (sorry not to bash, but I get that all the time every week:D )

Sorry about that.

[Berkey]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Shadow



Sorry about that.

it's all good thanks for the link