Interesting creator quotes on the 52 Universes

[Will.S]

I thought these were interesting in lieu of Countdown to Final Crisis. These were taken from the 52 interviews at Newsarama after the creators were done with the book.

Grant Morrison:

And the parallel Earths you see in issue #52 are not the familiar pre-Crisis versions. If you think you recognize and know any of these worlds from before, you'd be wrong. We all wanted to do something new with the multiple Earths so what you've already seen in 52 is simply the tip of the iceberg - each parallel world now has its own huge new backstory and characters and each could basically form the foundation for a complete line of new books. If you like the ongoing soap opera dynamics of New Earth, you can watch Mary Marvel turning to the dark side as her skirt gets shorter and shorter, or you can buy the Earth 5 line of books featuring more iconic versions of the Marvel Family. If you miss Vic Sage as the Question, you should be able to follow the adventures of Vic's counterpart on the Charlton/Watchmen world of Earth 4.

The idea behind the Megaverse is to basically create a number of big new franchise possibilities. It's like having several comics companies and universes under one umbrella, so, as I say, there could be one book or a whole line of books spinning out of the new Earth 10 (I handled that particular revamp, so I can tell you that the original concept of the Freedom Fighters on a world where the Nazis won World War 2 has been greatly reconsidered, expanded and intensified into something that's a bit more Wagnerian and apocalyptic and a bit more adult) That's how I'd like to see the Megaverse played out as we move forward. And no crossovers! Each of the parallel universes should exist in its own separate stream with no contact from the others - not until we have a story worthy of bringing them together.Geoff Johns:

NRAMA: So you mentioned these holes in the multiverse. Can you explain what the multiverse is now in the DCU?

GJ: It's 52 universes.

NRAMA: That's the whole description of it? 52 universes?

GJ: Yes. You have New Earth, and then you have Earth-1 through Earth-51.

NRAMA: We’ve seen some hints about what some of the earths are. Are we going to see more of those in the Booster Gold series?

GJ: You'll see some of them. But a lot of them are going to show up in the DC Universe. You'll see the new Earth-2 in Justice Society of America at some point in the next year. You'll see some of the stuff in Countdown, I believe.

NRAMA: Do they fit the descriptions of former earths? Or are they kind of open-ended now?

GJ: Right now, they're just out there. 52 earths. That's all. And you'll start to see them here or there, but the goal really is, like the end of the issue said, "It's a world full of possibilities." We don't want any rules on our stories. So let's be able to tell stories of all sorts of different things.

NRAMA: But after Infinite Crisis seemed to attempt some kind of former multiverse return and played upon that old idea, why go back to a different, new multiverse that exists out there? A new one that hasn't been explored at all?

GJ: Because there are still stories to tell. The idea of a multiverse should be available for those stories. Why put things on a shelf and let them get dusty? Why not put them out there so people can use them? If you don't want to use them, don't use them. But if you want to use them, they're there. That's what we're all about right now -- not putting rules on things. The DC Universe has always been about stories of all types and different interpretations of characters. Let that continue. Allow a megaverse to exist. Allow a book to be anything it wants to be. Allow the characters that people love to be able to be used.Dan Didio:

DD: Mr. Mind’s digestive problems, I think. [laughs] He couldn’t keep a good Phantom Zone down. I think the concept was brilliant on the writers’ part – 52 carbon copies of the same universe and then each one took on new life and a new direction by the flapping of Mr. Mind’s wings…to put it one way.

What’s fun about all of that is that these are new interpretations of these worlds. It’s not the Pre-Crisis on Infinite Earths multiverse, but something that is much more contained, and will hopefully be well managed as the months and years go by so that people will clearly understand the differences between the worlds. Of course, the 52 monitors help with making sure that the rules are followed among the earths…or do they?

NRAMA: Do they?

DD: Read Countdown to find out.I highlighted a part of the Grant Morrison quote because I thought it was funny how Countdown Arena and Countdown as a whole just destroys that so early.

Do you guys think that they're maintaining what they were set out to do or are they undermining the whole multiverse concept before letting creators do something with them?

Mods if this topic is too similar to the other threads please merge them.

[Jkid099]

Considering there's been an established, somewhat extensive, list of a good portion of the new Multiverse Earths' have, I'd say they've gone a good way to destroy that "open creativity" thing.

[Jack]

I'm pretty sure Final Crisis will result in a reset of the multiverse anyway, because there's already been too much damage done to too many of them.

[lazlo_toth]

I thought these were interesting in lieu of Countdown to Final Crisis. These were taken from the 52 interviews at Newsarama after the creators were done with the book.

I highlighted a part of the Grant Morrison quote because I thought it was funny how Countdown Arena and Countdown as a whole just destroys that so early.

Do you guys think that they're maintaining what they were set out to do or are they undermining the whole multiverse concept before letting creators do something with them?

Mods if this topic is too similar to the other threads please merge them.

I would have to say they've already undermined it. Countdown:Arena is probably one of the worst books DC has published in years, and maybe one of the worst ideas I've heard of ever. First, you have Monarch, one of the least interesting villains DC has ever come up with; it's been more than fifteen years and I still have the bitter aftertaste of Armageddon stuck in the back of my throat. Second, they create this brand spanking new shiny multiverse with all kinds of possibilities and that great new mutliverse smell still lingering, and in less than a year they round up dozens of characters from those new worlds and slaughter them wholesale. WTF?

Since Didio seems to hold the same relative authority in DC that Joey Q. holds at Marvel, and I always blame JQ for the things I hate there, I'm going to hold Didio responsible for the rampant slaughter of characters at DC over the past couple of years. I don't hate the guy the way some people do, but I have a real problem with what I perceive as a cavalier attitude towards wantonly making cannon fodder out of every character that doesn't immediately fit into their current storylines. I'm not saying you shouldn't ever allow a hero to die, but did they really need to kill Blue Beetle, Firestorm, Ralph and Sue Dibny, half the Teen Titans, and who knows how many other minor or supporting characters (any of which could easily become a major character with the right creative team)?

[Will.S]

I would have to say they've already undermined it. Countdown:Arena is probably one of the worst books DC has published in years, and maybe one of the worst ideas I've heard of ever. First, you have Monarch, one of the least interesting villains DC has ever come up with; it's been more than fifteen years and I still have the bitter aftertaste of Armageddon stuck in the back of my throat. Second, they create this brand spanking new shiny multiverse with all kinds of possibilities and that great new mutliverse smell still lingering, and in less than a year they round up dozens of characters from those new worlds and slaughter them wholesale. WTF?

Since Didio seems to hold the same relative authority in DC that Joey Q. holds at Marvel, and I always blame JQ for the things I hate there, I'm going to hold Didio responsible for the rampant slaughter of characters at DC over the past couple of years. I don't hate the guy the way some people do, but I have a real problem with what I perceive as a cavalier attitude towards wantonly making cannon fodder out of every character that doesn't immediately fit into their current storylines. I'm not saying you shouldn't ever allow a hero to die, but did they really need to kill Blue Beetle, Firestorm, Ralph and Sue Dibny, half the Teen Titans, and who knows how many other minor or supporting characters (any of which could easily become a major character with the right creative team)?
Yeah I can't disagree with you there. Killing off other heroes in Arena really just takes potentially interesting character off the shelf from their particular universe.

I will say however that Earth-51 having most heroes killed but Batman and Earth-8 with Lord Havok and the Extremists have given up pretty neat stories. Having Earth-15 destroyed leaves interesting possibilities from a more cosmic scale (although I liked the Zod thing and found the universe pretty compelling as well). Hopefully the other universes like the Batman Beyond universe and the Charlton ones will be untouched.

[Jack Zodiac]

I'm pretty sure Final Crisis will result in a reset of the multiverse anyway, because there's already been too much damage done to too many of them.

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking, which means there'll really be no payoff for an entire year of Countdown anyway. But considering Grant's original view of the multiverse and how fast other people at DC were to !@#$ that up, I'm sure he'll have everything made right again in Final Crisis, which is sounding more and more like it'll have less and less to do with Countdown itself.

[Ian J.N.]

Yeah I can't disagree with you there. Killing off other heroes in Arena really just takes potentially interesting character off the shelf from their particular universe.

I will say however that Earth-51 having most heroes killed but Batman and Earth-8 with Lord Havok and the Extremists have given up pretty neat stories.
As much as I favor world building over world destruction, part of the parallel universe appeal is being able to play rough with the characters. I think there needs to be the idea that these alternate continuities are self-healing. If you raze Flawed Utopia-Earth to the ground, it will eventually, silently and offscreen, revert to the way it was... back to what the concept is supposed to be. That way, you don't need to constantly invoke a Crisis to clean up the mess.

They could even have a world based off that idea -- a rapidly healing Villains' Danger Room-Earth, for example. Villains from our Earth go there to hone their fighting skills against the heroes, because whether they win or lose, there are no consequences. Every day continues as if nothing had happened.

[Will.S]

As much as I favor world building over world destruction, part of the parallel universe appeal is being able to play rough with the characters. I think there needs to be the idea that these alternate continuities are self-healing. If you raze Flawed Utopia-Earth to the ground, it will eventually, silently and offscreen, revert to the way it was... back to what the concept is supposed to be. That way, you don't need to constantly invoke a Crisis to clean up the mess.

They could even have a world based off that idea -- a rapidly healing Villains' Danger Room-Earth, for example. Villains from our Earth go there to hone their fighting skills against the heroes, because whether they win or lose, there are no consequences. Every day continues as if nothing had happened.
Hmm, that's a good point as well but when you refer to self "healing" do you mean that they would revert back to the way they were or to stay in the state they were left in and have time heal its wounds with new heroes take their place?

[Ian J.N.]

Hmm, that's a good point as well but when you refer to self healing do you mean that they would revert back to the way they were or does it just stay they way it was and time heals its wounds and new heroes take their place?
Maybe new heroes take their place, but what I'm saying is that continuity reboots. It doesn't HAVE to reboot--if a writer has a great Earthless Earth-15 concept, he can run with it--but on the whole, the continuities of these 51 universes are much more fluid than the DCU proper. That could be a natural feature of a parallel world, or maybe it's the Monitor's job to be continuity master, making retcon repairs to the world where he/she sees fit.

Considering that you can't do a Earth-15: Rebirth miniseries, looser continuity rules is probably the best way to fix mistakes (or to try something different), and really, it's only in the "real" DC universe where consequences need to stick. That's my opinion, anyway.

[Jack Zodiac]

I don't like the idea of a limited multiverse anyway, and I really hope part of Grant's master plan in to eliminate those barriers and open up the infinite multiverse again. Then, instead of wasting a potentially great character like Jay Garrick from "Golden Age" Earth-2 on a book like Countdown: Arena, they can waste some other character who's exactly the same from some crappier throw-away universe without wasting the one from the good universe with potential.

[botch]

Ha. I was right. the megaverse is DC's idea to make lines for other universes. I have a good eye. maybe I should be EIC at DC.

[Tahko Tetsujin]

Maybe you should. I mean it wasn't obvious because they based universes out of elseworld stories. Nope. Not obvious at all.

Another thing which is obvious at least to me is that the infinite universe format is coming back on DC's terms and not from having to explain why Captain Marvel coexists in a world with Superman or that there was a Superman during golden and silver age that didn't age or any of that crap.

The multiverse originally was created to explain flaws and integrate purchased franchises into DC. It was a mistake because things got really confusing. Now they have their sandbox set to do it things right without having confusion.

Well at least that's the idea. They will probably have to do it all over again in like 30 years and I'm good with that. It's just going to make Final Crisis a joke.

They will have an event called: "Final Crisis on Infinite Earths"

But hey! That's a long time from now! Enjoy your comics!

[MaryEclipso]

Grant Morrison:

That's how I'd like to see the Megaverse played out as we move forward. And no crossovers! Each of the parallel universes should exist in its own separate stream with no contact from the others - not until we have a story worthy of bringing them together.


I'm guessing this means a probable outcome of Final Crisis is that easy travel between universes is cut off.

[Choppa]

Interesting how they repeat that it's a new mutiverse so many times when DC has now published a 'Tales of the Multiverse' trade collecting old elseworlds stories. If these new Earths are just based on those elseworlds characters, why would they call this 'Tales of the MV?'

[Tahko Tetsujin]

Interesting how they repeat that it's a new mutiverse so many times when DC has now published a 'Tales of the Multiverse' trade collecting old elseworlds stories. If these new Earths are just based on those elseworlds characters, why would they call this 'Tales of the MV?'

Alright. It goes like this. The idea of bringing back the multiverse is decidedly so.

So what do you as a writer do? Do you go "Well I could create a universe where there was an alien invasion on earth during the prehistoric age and all the villains and heroes are the same they are just aliens!"

Awesome....but who is going to relate to that? Who is going to see some random alien dressed up like Nightwing and say, "Oh that guy must be from a universe where there was an alien invasion on earth during the prehistoric age and all the villains and heroes are the same they are just aliens!"

Well let's take a stage and call it the multiverse. We need to cast universes like they are themselves actors and it's going to have to sell like gangbusters but weekly production is taxing. So why not go towards rebuilding of some of the better already known universes and bring in some elseworlds existances?

None of the universes really need that much explanation because they are already somewhat established. After the story, we can have as many universes as we want and over time people will become familiar with random alien Nightwing but for now there is a really important story to be told.

For example in Countdown: Arena when all the Captain Atoms busted in. In that two page where they come onto the scene there is familiarity. I couldn't identify where all of them came from but a good bit of them you knew where they came from.

With universes that are simple to identify, you can tell the story and not have to focus on how something came to exist so much.

I think that a lot of people are taking those quotes out of context. 52 was part of a larger story. I think we can all identify that. Why would we hold them to things when the story isn't even over?

[carabas]

As much as I favor world building over world destruction, part of the parallel universe appeal is being able to play rough with the characters.Not saying that you're wrong, but if you don't give the readers a reason to really care what happens to, say, the Batman of Earth 45, as opposed to have him just wander onpanel and kill him, then he's just a statistic.
Right now I care more for Forerunner than for any of the alternate DC characters.

[Choppa]

Alright. It goes like this. The idea of bringing back the multiverse is decidedly so.

So what do you as a writer do? Do you go "Well I could create a universe where there was an alien invasion on earth during the prehistoric age and all the villains and heroes are the same they are just aliens!"

Awesome....but who is going to relate to that? Who is going to see some random alien dressed up like Nightwing and say, "Oh that guy must be from a universe where there was an alien invasion on earth during the prehistoric age and all the villains and heroes are the same they are just aliens!"

Well let's take a stage and call it the multiverse. We need to cast universes like they are themselves actors and it's going to have to sell like gangbusters but weekly production is taxing. So why not go towards rebuilding of some of the better already known universes and bring in some elseworlds existances?

None of the universes really need that much explanation because they are already somewhat established. After the story, we can have as many universes as we want and over time people will become familiar with random alien Nightwing but for now there is a really important story to be told.

For example in Countdown: Arena when all the Captain Atoms busted in. In that two page where they come onto the scene there is familiarity. I couldn't identify where all of them came from but a good bit of them you knew where they came from.

With universes that are simple to identify, you can tell the story and not have to focus on how something came to exist so much.

I think that a lot of people are taking those quotes out of context. 52 was part of a larger story. I think we can all identify that. Why would we hold them to things when the story isn't even over?

I'm not totally clear on what you're saying. The new multiverse is supposed to be based on the old one, not the same thing. So why are the trades that feature the original elseworld stories considered tales of the multiverse? It doesn't make sense.

[Tahko Tetsujin]

I'm not totally clear on what you're saying. The new multiverse is supposed to be based on the old one, not the same thing. So why are the trades that feature the original elseworld stories considered tales of the multiverse? It doesn't make sense.

What I'm saying is they didn't want to have to give individual stories on earths when there is a larger story to tell. So they take familiar universes from before(CSA, Captain Carrot) and mesh it with universes inspired by elseworlds(Red Son, GBG). By using elseworlds an a few familiar existences from way back, it allows them to tell a story without you having to go "Who the @#$% is that?" too much.

[Flash230]

It occured to me that an additional advantage to having 52 universes is that you can "assign" a certain universe to a certain writer. For example, Mark Millar might be assigned Earth-23. If Millar has a Batman story he'd like to write, he can do so without worrying about the Batman stories that have come before his, by simply basing HIS Batman story on Earth-23. A few months later, Millar wants to write a JLA story featuring "his" Batman, based that on Earth-23 as well.

Thoughts?

[NotSuper]

I'm pretty sure Final Crisis will result in a reset of the multiverse anyway, because there's already been too much damage done to too many of them.
Yeah, I see everything being repaired by a deus ex machina. Which means that Earth-15 (destroyed by Prime) and all the others will be brought back.

[Will.S]

Not saying that you're wrong, but if you don't give the readers a reason to really care what happens to, say, the Batman of Earth 45, as opposed to have him just wander onpanel and kill him, then he's just a statistic.
Right now I care more for Forerunner than for any of the alternate DC characters.
Hmm, I gotta say I've become fond of the Earth-51 Monitor and the Batman of that earth as well. One can't help but feel that that particular Monitor got screwed over while Batman is pretty much the only remaining hero that we know until Jason came into the fold to help him out.

[Choppa]

What I'm saying is they didn't want to have to give individual stories on earths when there is a larger story to tell. So they take familiar universes from before(CSA, Captain Carrot) and mesh it with universes inspired by elseworlds(Red Son, GBG). By using elseworlds an a few familiar existences from way back, it allows them to tell a story without you having to go "Who the @#$% is that?" too much.

But I never said anything about how the elseworlds are used as other universes. I said that since they are based on those stories and not continuations, the originals shouldn't be advertised as being "tales from the multiverse."

[Tahko Tetsujin]

But I never said anything about how the elseworlds are used as other universes. I said that since they are based on those stories and not continuations, the originals shouldn't be advertised as being "tales from the multiverse."

Why not? That's a great way to make more money. You shouldn't hate honest marketing like that.

Besides, that makes the original prints that much better to have!

[chastmastr]

I don't like the idea of a limited multiverse anyway, and I really hope part of Grant's master plan in to eliminate those barriers and open up the infinite multiverse again.

Which would explain why this is -- as Morrison says -- really going to be the Final Crisis. If it were yet another reboot of history, or of cosmology, then it would always need updating down the line. But if it's really going to be back to infinite Earths, then this would allow for any story anyone ever wants to tell, without revising anything ever again. (They could just set the main line of DC Comics in 2018, say, on another Earth without blowing up the previous one in Zero Armageddon Hyper-Crisis, or whatever.)

Which would be wonderful... :cool:

David

[Will.S]

Which would explain why this is -- as Morrison says -- really going to be the Final Crisis. If it were yet another reboot of history, or of cosmology, then it would always need updating down the line. But if it's really going to be back to infinite Earths, then this would allow for any story anyone ever wants to tell, without revising anything ever again. (They could just set the main line of DC Comics in 2018, say, on another Earth without blowing up the previous one in Zero Armageddon Hyper-Crisis, or whatever.)

Which would be wonderful... :cool:

David
I can see Final Crisis making the multiverse infinite again.

Then it looks like they wanted to map out some earths early on before Final Crisis hit and used up some "useless ones" to build a story with.

[HotRod_Tim]

I really hope DC starts doing things the Marvel way. Their rules are easy, they have their "alternate realities" and stuff, so characters could slip into another time/era/whatever...but the universes aren't really crossed over, simply the realities alter.

[chastmastr]

I disagree. I think the multiple universes are the best approach. That way when one has gotten "dated" then a new one can become the main focus and the previous batch of characters can change and grow, get married, have kids, even die, the way they did on Earth-Two, rather than and endless series of retcons to keep the status quo "fresh." (Admittedly this is at a pretty bad time, when some readers (including me) are very unhappy over what we see as editorially-mandated, wildly out-of-character writing to make changes in the status quo which are to get Marvel back to the way things were in the 1960s -- heroes not trusting each other as much, fewer mutants, and an unmarried Spider-Man. I'd have vastly preferred they just make a new universe -- and I'm very glad to have the "Earth-Two" Marvel Universe (the MC-2 books, primarily Spider-Girl) to fall back on for both heroic characters and more respect for both consistency and continuity.

David

[Tahko Tetsujin]

I really hope DC starts doing things the Marvel way. Their rules are easy, they have their "alternate realities" and stuff, so characters could slip into another time/era/whatever...but the universes aren't really crossed over, simply the realities alter.

That's true. I can't remember Marvel ever crossing over reality characters to interact with one another.....

http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/4761/v210nx4.th.jpg (http://img215.imageshack.us/my.php?image=v210nx4.jpg)

HOLY CRAP! IT'S TWO THORS!

[Simon Garth]

The difference is that Marvel just has hundreds of parallel universes, accepts that they're out there and uses them sporadically (or in one particular series, Exiles) - they don't base the whole line on infinite navel gazing wars between Earth-26 and Earth-31 because Superboman-31 insulted Wander Wench-14, or whatever.

All down to individual preference, but the DC way really turns me off their comics

[chastmastr]

they don't base the whole line on infinite navel gazing wars between Earth-26 and Earth-31 because Superboman-31 insulted Wander Wench-14, or whatever.

DC doesn't either. Not sure what you are trying to say here... :confused:

[Paul Newell]

That's true. I can't remember Marvel ever crossing over reality characters to interact with one another.....
Haven't they done that recently with Ultimate Power, Marvel Zombies, the Fantastic Four meeting their ultimate versions and, of course, Exiles?

[Tahko Tetsujin]

Haven't they done that recently with Ultimate Power, Marvel Zombies, the Fantastic Four meeting their ultimate versions and, of course, Exiles?

That was my point exactly as shown with my image.

[Will.S]

.....the Fantastic Four meeting their ultimate versions and.....
Nah, that hasn't happened yet.

[Paul Newell]

That was my point exactly as shown with my image.
Heh, total misread, sorry. :)

[Paul Newell]

Nah, that hasn't happened yet.
Is that upcoming? I remember seeing it announced somewhere...

[chastmastr]

Apart from mainly the MC-2 universe and the Squadron Supreme universe, Marvel hasn't really established and maintained ongoing parallel universes as much. (Well, there are those alternate futures like Days of Future Past, 2099, etc. as well as temporary alternate timelines like Age of Apocalypse and House of M. New Universe was kind of abandoned when it started crossing over with 616.) Most of Marvel's infinite Earths appear basically once, whether in Exiles, What If, a glimpse in Excalibur or Captain Britain, or an occasional visit in some other title. But those worlds don't tend to come back. There was the world Ben Grimm went to when he time-travelled back to cure himself of being the Thing, and then returned to in the last issue of Marvel Two-In-One (to discover it was indeed a parallel world with a slightly different history -- New York was New Amsterdam etc.), but even that was rare. (Was Thundra's world an alternate Earth, or just another dimension?) Oh, there were a couple of What Ifs which had sequels, and there was also TimeQuake.

Meanwhile, while DC has a bunch of Elseworlds which are kind of limited in what they can do (some of which were basically What Ifs), the fact is that before Crisis, they were worlds all their own on which one could conceivably have all manner of stories, and in the case of Earth-4, Earth-S, and Earth-2, they already had a pretty big backstory without the Earth-One characters involved at all. In some ways those characters have been hurt a bit by having to share the spotlight with DC's other crop. (Captain Marvel really was his world's mightiest mortal till he had to share a world with Superman, for instance.) The Charlton world had its own set-up which didn't need to coexist with, say, the Justice League. And of course Earth-2 gave us the Huntress and Power Girl and Infinity Inc. as well as the Justice Society. But trying to squeeze them into one world with everyone else robbed them a bit of their own specialness. Earth-X never really lived up to its potential -- I think I'd rather see an Earth-Quality which had the Freedom Fighter characters but without the whole Nazis-won-WWII business.

Of course, with infinite Earths we can have both. :)

David

[Will.S]

Let me ask you guys a question.

So far within Countdown (including all of the spin-offs), which universes have they been using well and to your liking?

I've liked the Forerunner's use and the way they combined her origin with the Monitor's and the way they used her universe in Countdown to Adventure, Lord Havok and his crew (even though I didn't read their mini), and Earth-51's big staging battle.

[Tahko Tetsujin]

Apart from mainly the MC-2 universe and the Squadron Supreme universe, Marvel hasn't really established and maintained ongoing parallel universes as much. (Well, there are those alternate futures like Days of Future Past, 2099, etc. as well as temporary alternate timelines like Age of Apocalypse and House of M. New Universe was kind of abandoned when it started crossing over with 616.) Most of Marvel's infinite Earths appear basically once, whether in Exiles, What If, a glimpse in Excalibur or Captain Britain, or an occasional visit in some other title.

That is just plain false.

What about Cable & Bishop? What about Counter-Earth. What about the Heroes Reborn Universe. Not to mention although House of M was given it's own reality, it still heavily affected 616.

People need to leave these notions that comic company X "Will not do Y".

As soon as you say that you should realize that if it hasn't happened at this time then it will now that you said something.

[Tahko Tetsujin]

Let me ask you guys a question.

So far within Countdown (including all of the spin-offs), which universes have they been using well and to your liking?

I've liked the Forerunner's use and the way they combined her origin with the Monitor's and the way they used her universe in Countdown to Adventure, Lord Havok and his crew (even though I didn't read their mini), and Earth-51's big staging battle.

Personally I think all have been handled well under the assumption that the multiverse is currently clay for the mold.

[chastmastr]

I want to see more of the Jokester (if there is a rebirth) and such Earth-3 heroes!! The one-shot really intrigued me. Been wanting to see something like that for ages...

[chastmastr]

That is just plain false.

What about Cable & Bishop? What about Counter-Earth. What about the Heroes Reborn Universe. Not to mention although House of M was given it's own reality, it still heavily affected 616.

People need to leave these notions that comic company X "Will not do Y".

As soon as you say that you should realize that if it hasn't happened at this time then it will now that you said something.

Cable and Bishop: "...there are those alternate futures like Days of Future Past, 2099, etc. ..."
Counter-Earth: Is in fact not another universe, but is in the same one, on the opposite side of the sun. :p
Heroes Reborn: "...temporary alternate timelines like Age of Apocalypse and House of M..."though I think this is more of some kind of pocket dimension in the mind of that female Celestial who Franklin Richards convinced to save it, right?

It's not that they will not do this or that, just that they haven't done it so much. There's nothing stopping them or anything.

I think the reasons DC has done more with their alternate universes than Marvel is that when they created their Silver Age characters, are, one, they didn't set them in the same world as their Golden Age ones. But over at Marvel, in Fantastic Four #4 and Avengers #4, they put Namor and Captain America respectively in the same world. Marvel could have conceivably treated them as being in another universe; they just chose not to. Meanwhile, when DC bought other companies' characters -- the Quality, Fawcett and Charlton characters (and later, even Wildstorm) -- they just set them all on different Earths. Marvel wasn't in the business of doing that -- I have no idea what they might have done if they bought, say, the Gold Key properties or such.

(The infinite Earths model would also allow DC to, if they buy up anybody else, put them on another Earth, and also introduce them onto a shared Earth if they like.)

I will say that I was not thrilled at the idea of the Earth-S Green Lantern -- it might be interesting to see that, but part of the charm of Earth-S is that they have their own unique batch of heroes who aren't alternate versions of anyone else. Ibis is not the parallel to Dr. Fate or Zatanna, etc.

David

[Will.S]

Not to mention although House of M was given it's own reality, it still heavily affected 616.
I'm not sure if that was given it's own reality, it looked like that was reverted back to the regular universe unlike AoA.

Personally I think all have been handled well under the assumption that the multiverse is currently clay for the mold.
I think some of them have been cool but how about the stuff in Countdown Arena with several characters plucked out of their own realities and killed off? Doesn't that limit a future writer from using that particular character whenever their respective universes are used or mentioned?

Like for example, a writer wants to revisit the Red Son universe and that Superman is killed, how does the writer deal with that if he wanted to use that Superman?

I want to see more of the Jokester (if there is a rebirth) and such Earth-3 heroes!! The one-shot really intrigued me. Been wanting to see something like that for ages...
I liked that "reverse" Joker as well.

[chastmastr]

I suspect strongly with the "rebirth" hints out there that those characters will come back... hoping anyway!

[botch]

I disagree. I think the multiple universes are the best approach. That way when one has gotten "dated" then a new one can become the main focus and the previous batch of characters can change and grow, get married, have kids, even die, the way they did on Earth-Two, rather than and endless series of retcons to keep the status quo "fresh." (Admittedly this is at a pretty bad time, when some readers (including me) are very unhappy over what we see as editorially-mandated, wildly out-of-character writing to make changes in the status quo which are to get Marvel back to the way things were in the 1960s -- heroes not trusting each other as much, fewer mutants, and an unmarried Spider-Man. I'd have vastly preferred they just make a new universe -- and I'm very glad to have the "Earth-Two" Marvel Universe (the MC-2 books, primarily Spider-Girl) to fall back on for both heroic characters and more respect for both consistency and continuity.

David

I don't think that's a fair assessment of the Marvel U at the moment, with the exception of Spidey. The whole heroes thing is different, the main heroes that rule the Marvel U have pretty much been shown to be fascists. Which is realistic. the fact that Tony Stark and Reed Richards pretty much run the planet and are sly manipulative heroes. you'd never see that in DC.

[botch]

Haven't they done that recently with Ultimate Power, Marvel Zombies, the Fantastic Four meeting their ultimate versions and, of course, Exiles?

what he's trying to say is that it's controlled and minimal compared to DC's multiverse shenanigans.

[botch]

That is just plain false.

What about Cable & Bishop? What about Counter-Earth. What about the Heroes Reborn Universe. Not to mention although House of M was given it's own reality, it still heavily affected 616.

People need to leave these notions that comic company X "Will not do Y".

As soon as you say that you should realize that if it hasn't happened at this time then it will now that you said something.

Well....Marvel may have done those realities but they're controlled, which is why they are not the company doing Final Crisis.

[chastmastr]

I don't think that's a fair assessment of the Marvel U at the moment, with the exception of Spidey. The whole heroes thing is different, the main heroes that rule the Marvel U have pretty much been shown to be fascists. Which is realistic. the fact that Tony Stark and Reed Richards pretty much run the planet and are sly manipulative heroes. you'd never see that in DC.

And thank God for that. I agree about them being portrayed as fascists, definitely, which is why I'm dropping Marvel mainstream titles left and right and picking up the Spider-Girl and Marvel Adventures and First Class books. It may be "realistic" in the sense of what many bad people would do in real life if they had the chance, but the radical shift in their previously-established moral character is not realistic at all. I could see a realistic development of the corruption of Tony, Reed and such but that's not what they did, in my opinion. (Again, DC did a better example of this in Kingdom Come. Heck, Marvel even did a better job with it with Mark Waid's run on Fantastic Four with Reed deciding to go into Latveria and just take over after Doom has crossed the line one final time... and Reed learned from that, and saw the tragic consequences, and such...)

I do still contend that Joe Q's frequent claims in interviews to be trying to get the "genies" back into their bottles (heroes in conflict and mistrust, fewer mutants, and a single Spider-Man who struggles with daily life issues) and references to classic Stan-and-Jack Marvel stories as when Marvel was really great. He's justified some behaviors on the grounds that, for example, Peter Parker let the burglar go by and that Stark was an arms dealer -- but he neglects that they both learned from their mistakes and grew from it. I think that what's he's done in practice with all this has been very much counter to real classic Marvel on all kinds of levels -- the heroes all had feet of clay, yes, but they were not continuously doing villainous things like this -- apart from the Hulk, who was more of the misunderstood, confused child throwing tantrums and wanting to be left alone -- yet even he never was shown killing people, unrealistic though that would be with throwing tanks around and so forth.

However, as my current sig suggests, I am trying to move away from arguing about Marvel lately as it has been getting me down a bit too much in unhealthy ways. :o

So back to DC! I am very psyched about the future of the Multiverse, or Megaverse. I think that the characters who are dying in Arena and elsewhere will be back -- I don't think DC would go so far out of their way to spotlight various worlds only to destroy them, or destroy what makes them cool (like pivotal characters), without planning on bringing them back -- which may indeed be what Ray is doing with all these marks on people, one per representative of each world as far as I can tell -- I think that this is not to save those individuals, but to save each world they come from, somehow. We shall see!! :)

David

[NotSuper]

Question: Assuming Final Crisis does restore the destroyed Earths, what would be the in-story explanation? Does the Source just bring back Earths 15 and 51 and restore all the killed heroes and villains?

[Tahko Tetsujin]

Question: Assuming Final Crisis does restore the destroyed Earths, what would be the in-story explanation? Does the Source just bring back Earths 15 and 51 and restore all the killed heroes and villains?

If they bring back the infinite earths format, it could be easily assumed the destroyed earths would be brought back.

Oh and as far as House of M:

Name:Earth-58163
also known as House of M

First Appearance: House of M #2 (2005)

Notes:
* Magneto began a mutant movement which caused human mutants to be the majority and baseline humans to be the minority. An altered Earth-616.
* First numbered in All-New Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe A to Z #6 ("Justice" entry).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiverse_(Marvel_Comics)

[botch]

And thank God for that. I agree about them being portrayed as fascists, definitely, which is why I'm dropping Marvel mainstream titles left and right and picking up the Spider-Girl and Marvel Adventures and First Class books. It may be "realistic" in the sense of what many bad people would do in real life if they had the chance, but the radical shift in their previously-established moral character is not realistic at all. I could see a realistic development of the corruption of Tony, Reed and such but that's not what they did, in my opinion. (Again, DC did a better example of this in Kingdom Come. Heck, Marvel even did a better job with it with Mark Waid's run on Fantastic Four with Reed deciding to go into Latveria and just take over after Doom has crossed the line one final time... and Reed learned from that, and saw the tragic consequences, and such...)

I do still contend that Joe Q's frequent claims in interviews to be trying to get the "genies" back into their bottles (heroes in conflict and mistrust, fewer mutants, and a single Spider-Man who struggles with daily life issues) and references to classic Stan-and-Jack Marvel stories as when Marvel was really great. He's justified some behaviors on the grounds that, for example, Peter Parker let the burglar go by and that Stark was an arms dealer -- but he neglects that they both learned from their mistakes and grew from it. I think that what's he's done in practice with all this has been very much counter to real classic Marvel on all kinds of levels -- the heroes all had feet of clay, yes, but they were not continuously doing villainous things like this -- apart from the Hulk, who was more of the misunderstood, confused child throwing tantrums and wanting to be left alone -- yet even he never was shown killing people, unrealistic though that would be with throwing tanks around and so forth.

However, as my current sig suggests, I am trying to move away from arguing about Marvel lately as it has been getting me down a bit too much in unhealthy ways. :o

So back to DC! I am very psyched about the future of the Multiverse, or Megaverse. I think that the characters who are dying in Arena and elsewhere will be back -- I don't think DC would go so far out of their way to spotlight various worlds only to destroy them, or destroy what makes them cool (like pivotal characters), without planning on bringing them back -- which may indeed be what Ray is doing with all these marks on people, one per representative of each world as far as I can tell -- I think that this is not to save those individuals, but to save each world they come from, somehow. We shall see!! :)

David

Like you said you could just drop the books, but i love the direction marvel is taking, they haven't been this good since days of the phoenix and then back during the days of stan and jack. if you want the iconic 'heroic' heroes, there is DC but i dont get the mentallity of things have to stick one way, let Marvel do their even more realistic heroes now, you can just read DC. It's like telling someone into math metal that it shouldn't be so crazy, i don't like things being formulaic.

besides your loss, i mean goddamn IMMORTAL IRON FIST! Captain America! Daredevil! Ultimate Spidey! New Avengers. Those are sweet books and they make up 10% of my pull yet are better than all my DC books minus Green Lantern and GL Corps.

[chastmastr]

We seem to be getting off-topic here but I felt I should respond...

if you want the iconic 'heroic' heroes, there is DC but i dont get the mentallity of things have to stick one way, let Marvel do their even more realistic heroes now, you can just read DC. It's like telling someone into math metal that it shouldn't be so crazy, i don't like things being formulaic.

besides your loss, i mean goddamn IMMORTAL IRON FIST! Captain America! Daredevil! Ultimate Spidey! New Avengers. Those are sweet books and they make up 10% of my pull yet are better than all my DC books minus Green Lantern and GL Corps.

Honestly, though, (1) Marvel's heroes were "heroic" till three and a half years ago -- this wave of corruption didn't start till then. It's extremely recent. (2) If "more realistic" means "more corrupt and rife with betrayal" then God help us all. (As Grant Morrison (as himself, talking to the character) said in Animal Man in 1989, "We thought we could make your world more mature, more adult, by making it more violent. God help us if that's what that really means.") Marvel's heroes have always had "feet of clay" but that's not the same as becoming as bad as the villains they fight. (3) I'm not talking about story style, but about making heroes into evil fascists. This isn't just a matter of stylistic taste analogous to musical taste, in my considered opinion. (I will admit good stories can be told using negative characters, absolutely, such as in a tragedy, but I don't think that's what's going on.) These characters have been through all kinds of dark storylines at different times over the years, struggled with their own morality, but nothing like this, and at the cost of great, wildly out-of-character damage to them. When Tony Stark and Reed Richards do the things they did in Civil War, that's way beyond the pale of "heroes making mistakes in a realistic way." DC's characters, yes, also made horrible mistakes, but why is it "less realistic" to show those characters recognizing them and turning away from them (as we saw them do in Infinite Crisis) and "more realistic" for Marvel's to blindly keep embracing them and continue to act like lies and betrayals are morally right (as we see Tony and Reed and such do)? And if they're going to keep doing that, it might be realistic for some characters to do that -- certainly some pretty horrible people do that in the real world -- but not heroes in any real sense of the word, which is what those characters are supposed to be.

(I could get into the recent Romulus and Azrael storylines as hardly being realistic either, but that's kind of unfair and not really related to the whole moral issue...)

I will say that I've been in discussions about these issues on other threads over on the Marvel boards here and I don't like the idea that this subject is taking over what's basically an unrelated thread... though I also have no idea what I could add here other than repeating myself. I had to edit this post to about half its length before I posted it (and before editing it this time) when I realized I was just repeating myself using slightly different words. We may be at some sort of impasse going down to non-literary, philosophical principles or something. Or metaliterary, perhaps.

David

[Will.S]

If they bring back the infinite earths format, it could be easily assumed the destroyed earths would be brought back.

Oh and as far as House of M:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiverse_(Marvel_Comics) Have they revisited the House of M universe? I don't know, to me it seemed like HoM was a blanket that covered the 616 universe and then was taken off or away. I haven't seen any titles yet that show that it's still in existence, heck even the House of M Avengers book is a prequel to it.

[chastmastr]

Have they revisited the House of M universe? I don't know, to me it seemed like HoM was a blanket that covered the 616 universe and then was taken off or away. I haven't seen any titles yet that show that it's still in existence, heck even the House of M Avengers book is a prequel to it.

Hey, that's right! Is it still going on somewhere, then? :confused: