Hope for a Christian future... with Fundies on the sidelines

[stamen]

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gq7KQubcoZYlyDvdQtL1eVU3fEzQD8U7QC2O0

This came out today in the AP. It's a great article and a good book, counted among many others trying to wrestly power away from the intolerant. I thought "Blue Like Jazz" was good, but some of my favorites have been:

Dick Staub's "The Culturally Savvy Christian"
Dan Kimball's "They Like Jesus, but not the Church"
Mike Yaconelli's "Messy Spirituality"

Maybe there's hope for some of us to lead and serve outside the ignorance and hate of our loudest barking dogs.

[MacQuarrie]

Mike Yaconelli was awesome. I attended a youth workers' seminar that he put on years ago, and I was really impressed by him. As down to earth and real-world as you can get.

[Sally Sensational]

"Messy Christianity" - I like that term.

One of the things I struggled with (and still do sometimes) when it became apparent what direction mine and SK's relationship was headed in, was my conservative Southern Baptist upbringing. If I used the thought processes and belief system that I was brought up in, it meant I had 1 of 2 choices:

1. Deny my feelings for her, thus denying the one truly unconditional, fulfilling, uplifting human love of my life.
2. Voluntarily become an outcast and a target, choosing to live a life of "SIN"

The biggest problem was that I didn't feel like the God that I loved and worshipped was going to smite me for loving her. The happiness I felt, the love, the restoration of my faith in life and love - all the things that came along with our relationship - didn't feel like I had committed some sort of severing act from my faith. In fact, I felt my faith was stronger, more immediate, and more intense.

Sure, I guess I could have done the denial and self-abnegation thing and tried my best to feel like that was drawing me closer to God, but I just didn't feel like that was the direction in which I needed to go.

Now, my perspective on the whole "same-sex" relationship thing is this: God loves us so he gave us human love. He understands, better than we do, what sorts of human love can be destructive to us and disruptive to our relationship with him. Thus, when a relationship is honest, faithful, monogamous, and committed - when it does NOT have either a destructive or disruptive influence on our lives, both temporally and spiritually, that is a relationship that God can look with favor on.

I think, historically, that the reason the church is so adamantly opposed to same-sex relationships is because of the ways in which they were used in Biblical times. For the Old Testament peoples, same sex physical relationships were most often a symptom of subjugation, a form of abuse by the conquerors over the conquered. The New Testament peoples - Greeks especially - had their same sex relationships outside the marriage and also within the worship practices of pagan gods. So, same sex relationships were viewed as destructive to the safety of the followers of the Judaeo-Christian God.

But, as our views on relationships - specifically adult life-partner relationships - have shifted from arrangements of political and economic expediency to relationships based on emotional attachment, the possibility that two people of the same sex can have a relationship that carries with it the emotional stability of a marriage has become less and less what the minority of people involved in same sex relationships experience and more and more what individuals who participate in those relationships have as a goal. Thus, the destructive elements that the early Christians were concerned with are being weeded out of same-sex relationships in the same way that the perceived "necessity" of the older forms of same sex relationships - for subjugation, companionship outside a loveless marriage, and pagan worship practices - are being weeded out.

Now, if I could just find a church that shares my perspective. I'm not comfortable in Unitarian congregations - the ambiguity is just too great. But I can't comfortably go on being a Southern Baptist, either. There was a time in my life I didn't go to church because I felt that sitting in a pew demonstrated a great deal of hypocrisy based on the destructive ways in which I was leading my life. Now, I don't go to church because I feel that sitting in a pew in that particular church demonstrates an agreement with that church's views that I don't feel - another form of hypocrisy.

[Pink Bat Maxine]

Since when did fundies want a future for Christians on planet earth? I've read my Chick Tracts! They wanna be raptured yesterday and a thousand years of tribulations to reign o'er the sinners here on earth.

Jeez, am I gonna have to lecture some fundy bitches on their own doctrine?

[stamen]

Since when did fundies want a future for Christians on planet earth? I've read my Chick Tracts! They wanna be raptured yesterday and a thousand years of tribulations to reign o'er the sinners here on earth.

Jeez, am I gonna have to lecture some fundy bitches on their own doctrine?

Touche! :)

[MacQuarrie]

Good one, Max!

Me, I'm still struggling with the worldview that says "there is wonder-working power in the Blood of Christ, and in all these things we are More than Conquerors, and anything we ask for in faith WILL be done for us... so therefore we must cower in fear before the world and lash out irrationally at anything that remotely hints at threatening our political opinions."

hm.

[Michael P]

Gonna have to add that one to my reading list.

[Winslow]

Mike Yaconelli's "Messy Spirituality"

From the Amazon reviews, this looks like a refreshing look at the orthodox doctrine of grace. In other word Romans 7 in today's language.

[Winslow]

"Messy Christianity" - I like that term.
<snip>


Thank you for your heart felt response.

Reading posts like this provides another nail in the coffin of my bigotry, so I appreciate it.

I honestly don't know how to reconcile traditional Christian beliefs regarding sex and marriage with monogamous homosexual love. I also can't imagine the "identity turmoil" you're going through. Reading posts like yours goes a long was in helping me to empathize to the struggle of faith for many homosexual Christians.

Now, if I could just find a church that shares my perspective. I'm not comfortable in Unitarian congregations - the ambiguity is just too great. But I can't comfortably go on being a Southern Baptist, either. There was a time in my life I didn't go to church because I felt that sitting in a pew demonstrated a great deal of hypocrisy based on the destructive ways in which I was leading my life. Now, I don't go to church because I feel that sitting in a pew in that particular church demonstrates an agreement with that church's views that I don't feel - another form of hypocrisy.

I'm probably not telling you anything you already don't know, but some episcopal churches are more open to gay couples.

[stamen]

From the Amazon reviews, this looks like a refreshing look at the orthodox doctrine of grace. In other word Romans 7 in today's language.

It's a great read. We use it as an "New Member" class in our church, even though we have no formal membership requirements. ;)

[Winslow]

It's a great read. We use it as an "New Member" class in our church, even though we have no formal membership requirements. ;)

Calvary Chapel?

I have a different view of church membership . . .but not sure you want to get into that.

Our church also has its roots in the "Jesus freak Hippie" movement of the late 60's and early 70's on the East Coast.

[stamen]

I honestly don't know how to reconcile traditional Christian beliefs regarding sex and marriage with monogamous homosexual love. I also can't imagine the "identity turmoil" you're going through. Reading posts like yours goes a long was in helping me to empathize to the struggle of faith for many homosexual Christians.

http://www.godweb.org/wink.htm

The above link is part of a debate on the issue that I found refreshing. The section on Hebrew sexual mores was really facinating, and the notion that prostitution sort of gets a free pass in contrast to homosexuality. The whole read is very interesting to both the causal observer and the Christian trying to find his/her way.

ETA this great quote from the site:

In a little-remembered statement, Jesus said, "Why do you not judge for yourselves what is right?" (Luke 12:57). Such sovereign freedom strikes terror in the hearts of many Christians; they would rather be under law and be told what is right. Yet Paul himself echoes Jesus' sentiment immediately preceding one of his possible references to homosexuality: "Do you not know that we are to judge angels? How much more, matters pertaining to this life!" (1 Cor. 6:3 RSV). The last thing Paul would want is for people to respond to his ethical advice as a new law engraved on tablets of stone. He is himself trying to "judge for himself what is right." If now new evidence is in on the phenomenon of homosexuality, are we not obligated--no, free--to re- evaluate the whole issue in the light of all the available data and decide, under God, for ourselves? Is this not the radical freedom for obedience in which the gospel establishes us?

[stamen]

I have a different view of church membership . . .but not sure you want to get into that.

Actually, I'd love to know, but let's chat in PM in case others don't care two wits to hear us discuss. :)

(If you send me something I promise to read and respond, but for now I'm out for most of the day.)

[Winslow]

Actually, I'd love to know, but let's chat in PM in case others don't care two wits to hear us discuss. :)

(If you send me something I promise to read and respond, but for now I'm out for most of the day.)

Cool.

Yeah, I have a wedding and reception to attend this afternoon, so I won't be around either.

I'll collect some basic thoughts and send ya a PM.

[beetlebum]

"Messy Christianity" - I like that term.


The biggest problem was that I didn't feel like the God that I loved and worshipped was going to smite me for loving her. The happiness I felt, the love, the restoration of my faith in life and love - all the things that came along with our relationship - didn't feel like I had committed some sort of severing act from my faith. In fact, I felt my faith was stronger, more immediate, and more intense.

Sure, I guess I could have done the denial and self-abnegation thing and tried my best to feel like that was drawing me closer to God, but I just didn't feel like that was the direction in which I needed to go.

Now, my perspective on the whole "same-sex" relationship thing is this: God loves us so he gave us human love. He understands, better than we do, what sorts of human love can be destructive to us and disruptive to our relationship with him. Thus, when a relationship is honest, faithful, monogamous, and committed - when it does NOT have either a destructive or disruptive influence on our lives, both temporally and spiritually, that is a relationship that God can look with favor on.

I think, historically, that the reason the church is so adamantly opposed to same-sex relationships is because of the ways in which they were used in Biblical times. For the Old Testament peoples, same sex physical relationships were most often a symptom of subjugation, a form of abuse by the conquerors over the conquered. The New Testament peoples - Greeks especially - had their same sex relationships outside the marriage and also within the worship practices of pagan gods. So, same sex relationships were viewed as destructive to the safety of the followers of the Judaeo-Christian God.
There was a time in my life I didn't go to church because I felt that sitting in a pew demonstrated a great deal of hypocrisy based on the destructive ways in which I was leading my life. Now, I don't go to church because I feel that sitting in a pew in that particular church demonstrates an agreement with that church's views that I don't feel - another form of hypocrisy.

I'm sorry you had to go through all of this Sally. Now that I've come out as bisexual, I know how you feel. I think it'll be another 1,000, or if the world is lucky another couple hundred years before this prejudice is worked out of the Church's epistemological framework. The discrimination against homosexuality not only evolved out of an archaic eisegesis of Old Testament texts, but also unfortunately, Natural Law theory and eventually became apart of teleology. It was in some regards, another way for the Church to control the populace. I do believe in the concept of natural rights, it's only intrinsic for an adherent like me. But unlike many others who profess to believe in this theory, I also believe the theory of those rights can be applied to, and should be given to all of our citizens.

Since when did fundies want a future for Christians on planet earth? I've read my Chick Tracts! They wanna be raptured yesterday and a thousand years of tribulations to reign o'er the sinners here on earth.

Jeez, am I gonna have to lecture some fundy bitches on their own doctrine?

Please do so wearing a pimp outfit, then upload the video online! http://images2.teenspot.com/boards/images/smilies/pimpin.gif ;D

Gonna have to add that one to my reading list.

So do I. I may actually read something besides textbooks and Buffy tie-ins! :)


Thank you for your heart felt response.

Reading posts like this provides another nail in the coffin of my bigotry, so I appreciate it.

I honestly don't know how to reconcile traditional Christian beliefs regarding sex and marriage with monogamous homosexual love. I also can't imagine the "identity turmoil" you're going through. Reading posts like yours goes a long was in helping me to empathize to the struggle of faith for many homosexual Christians.

I'm probably not telling you anything you already don't know, but some episcopal churches are more open to gay couples.

I feel the exact same way. I was also going to suggest the Anglican church and it's American branch. They seem to be the most progressive when it comes to this. As for me, the more I learn about these things, the more frustrated I get with the overall ecumenical body. I have found myself moving further away from it. Don't get me wrong, those who are apart of that body are capable of great good. I know Catholic and Assemblies Of God missionaries who have gone overseas to give succour to those in need, whether it is in war torn Sudan or helping those in need in impoverished Bolivia. But I find that with the ecumenical, exegesis is always stunted by ideology, and that always gets in the way of what is best for society. I'm not ready to be a Christian anarchist yet, but I just think that as for right now, I still need to find where I stand and where I'm at now will lead me to or is probably what is best for me.

[Reverend Smooth]

Back home, there really was no place for a homosexual or a bisexual christian (a very conservative part of Canada at the time). It was part of why I left the church, walked away from my vocation, and turned away from christianity entirely.

Mind you, my 'lifestyle' at the time was no drinking, no sex, no smoking, no drugs, no provocative clothing, not even chaste boyfriends or girlfriends. It did consist of homelessness and poverty while I saw priests driving around in expensive white cars and blowing money on flashy nativity scenes while I sat on a cold winter bench.

By the time I was in an area with Unitarians and so on, I was so burnt out on christianity that to this day I STILL can't seem myself returning. I don't want to associate with it in any way, period. If God and Jesus were so great, why do they look on as people do this in their name?

Just about every single pagan convert I've met converted away from christianity for similar reasons. That's thousands of people, and that's just my own acquaintances.

[MacQuarrie]

I honestly don't know how to reconcile traditional Christian beliefs regarding sex and marriage with monogamous homosexual love. I also can't imagine the "identity turmoil" you're going through. Reading posts like yours goes a long was in helping me to empathize to the struggle of faith for many homosexual Christians.
My method is to read the teachings as applying to me only. I'm supposed to make sure that I am following God's laws; I'm not supposed to spend any time making sure anybody else is. God didn't tell me to make sure other people are pure, he told ME to be pure.

I think it makes me a nicer neighbor.

[Pink Bat Maxine]

My method is to read the teachings as applying to me only. I'm supposed to make sure that I am following God's laws; I'm not supposed to spend any time making sure anybody else is. God didn't tell me to make sure other people are pure, he told ME to be pure.

I think it makes me a nicer neighbor.

That's closer to what my sister tells me the Baptist Church is supposed to be. More of a 'tend your own garden' philosophy.

'Course, I'm hardly coming at this from very much inside perspective. =p

[MacQuarrie]

Interesting study: look up how often Jesus tells people some variation of "mind your own business." It happens a lot.

[Alex Scott]

A while back I got a book of sayings of the Desert Fathers, the first major group of Christian monks, who lived on the outskirts of Egyptian cities. It was very interesting to observe their intense devotion to personal piety above all else--including anyone else's piety.

There was one quote I'll never forget, which was something to the effect of: "The same God who said 'You shall not commit adultery' also said 'Do not judge.'"

[Reverend Smooth]

That's closer to what my sister tells me the Baptist Church is supposed to be. More of a 'tend your own garden' philosophy.

'Course, I'm hardly coming at this from very much inside perspective. =p

Coulda told that to my baptist aunt. (Her church concurred.)

"It's okay that you kicked her out, Lucienne. If God hadn't wanted her to be homeless, she wouldn't be such a sinner."

[Pink Bat Maxine]

Coulda told that to my baptist aunt. (Her church concurred.)

"It's okay that you kicked her out, Lucienne. If God hadn't wanted her to be homeless, she wouldn't be such a sinner."

Yes, well, as the Evil Sister will be the first to say, the Baptists...... strayed from their origins. A LOT.

[Cam63]

I'm still not convinced religion isn't anything more than a fairytale to keep the kids in line.

[Linkara]

I'm still not convinced religion isn't anything more than a fairytale to keep the kids in line.

I'm still not convinced beer isn't anything but a way of decaying brain cells while drinking foul-tasting liquid, so it all works out. ^_~

As for me, I just stopped going to church. I remain Christian but I don't need others to tell me how to worship him nor do I need to get up every sunday in the cold eight-month winters of Minnesota to celebrate him and his son.

I imagine God is more mellow than we give him credit for. As for Reverend's question of why they would allow people to go on doing it, basically it's the free will defense. God wants us to make our own mistakes and grow for it and the people who don't realize the errors of their ways and continue to kill and cause strife in his name will get their due punishment.

[Gilda Dent]

Now, if I could just find a church that shares my perspective. I'm not comfortable in Unitarian congregations - the ambiguity is just too great. But I can't comfortably go on being a Southern Baptist, either. There was a time in my life I didn't go to church because I felt that sitting in a pew demonstrated a great deal of hypocrisy based on the destructive ways in which I was leading my life. Now, I don't go to church because I feel that sitting in a pew in that particular church demonstrates an agreement with that church's views that I don't feel - another form of hypocrisy.

You might want to try to find a Metropolitan Community Church (MCC) (http://www.mccchurch.org/AM/Template.cfm?Section=Home). It's a traditional conservative Protestant Christian church for GLBT people.

This site (http://www.jesusmcc.org/resource/hb.html) is a wonderful site for Christian gays, and has a good archive of sermons on various topics with a pastor who is very engaging, entertaining, and good at educating.

I'm kinda fond of the "Little Girl, Arise" sermon myself, but there are others specifically addressing the specific issues that arise with GLBT Christians, but also find the "Families, as God sees them" sermon to be quite inspiring.

The United Church of Christ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G76dyQdgHp0), a mainstream Protestant church, isn't specifically for gays, but does welcome them without judgment.

Unity is also pretty cool with gays, and occupies a middle ground between Unitarians and traditional mainstream churches.

If you were raised Catholic, the Episcopaleans are as close in methodology and orthodoxy as you're going to get and don't have a problem with gays.

[K'Nort]

I actually attended an MCC church when I first moved to Portland. Figured I wouldn't have to worry about them preaching intolerance. It was a very positive experience. Traditional liturgy, but very warm and open.

[Cam63]

I'm still not convinced beer isn't anything but a way of decaying brain cells while drinking foul-tasting liquid, so it all works out. ^_~

Touche, you bastard.

[stamen]

For me, the difference came when I stopped looking at church as a place I went to be served, and started looking at it as a place I went to serve. Luckily, I'm in a place with plenty of opportunity for both.

[Reverend Smooth]

Tried that. Catholics don't like wimmin to be clergy.

[MacQuarrie]

Coulda told that to my baptist aunt. (Her church concurred.)

"It's okay that you kicked her out, Lucienne. If God hadn't wanted her to be homeless, she wouldn't be such a sinner."

Right. Because a person's health and prosperity is determined by whether or not they're a sinner.

Certainly if a person were to be living in the wilderness, eating locusts and honey to survive, before being thrown in prison and eventually executed, it's because they're a sinner... like John the Baptist.

And if a person were to end up living in a cave or having to beg for food to survive, it's because he's a sinner... like Elijah.

Or maybe if one were sold into slavery before being framed and sent to prison, that person would be a sinner, too... like Joseph.

And certainly, if somebody lived in poverty before being imprisoned, tortured, and publicly executed after having all his friends and family flee and leave him to his fate, that guy's surely a sinner... like Jesus.

God, I hate sanctimonious, self-righteous people who spew ignorant horseshit in the name of God.

[Reverend Smooth]

They're generally the reason that so many people turn away from him.

And yeah.

[Linkara]

Touche, you bastard.

I take offense to that! :evilangry

I'm a MAGNIFICENT bastard!

[Winslow]

Right. Because a person's health and prosperity is determined by whether or not they're a sinner.

Certainly if a person were to be living in the wilderness, eating locusts and honey to survive, before being thrown in prison and eventually executed, it's because they're a sinner... like John the Baptist.

And if a person were to end up living in a cave or having to beg for food to survive, it's because he's a sinner... like Elijah.

Or maybe if one were sold into slavery before being framed and sent to prison, that person would be a sinner, too... like Joseph.

And certainly, if somebody lived in poverty before being imprisoned, tortured, and publicly executed after having all his friends and family flee and leave him to his fate, that guy's surely a sinner... like Jesus.

God, I hate sanctimonious, self-righteous people who spew ignorant horseshit in the name of God.

There's THAT, and the whole "suffering as a means to maturity" that's over-looked or discarded.

[Alex Scott]

All this and no mention of Job?

(or even the ideal of martyrdom that was so important to Second Temple Jews and 1st and 2nd-century Christians?)

[HomerJay]

My method is to read the teachings as applying to me only. I'm supposed to make sure that I am following God's laws; I'm not supposed to spend any time making sure anybody else is. God didn't tell me to make sure other people are pure, he told ME to be pure.

I think it makes me a nicer neighbor.
This is EXACTLY the kind of Christian I was raised to be, despite having two parents who are very conservative politically.
The United Church of Christ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G76dyQdgHp0), a mainstream Protestant church, isn't specifically for gays, but does welcome them without judgment.
I was raised in a UCC church and now attend one with my family (it may surprise some people here to learn that I was actually our congregation's president during 2006). It is a very tolerant church and it's philosophy is literally "Jesus turned no one away, neither will we." We have a "2 mommy" family in our church who are VERY involved (I put one of the couple on our Board of Christian Education), and our musical director of 15 years grew up in the church and is also gay.
The part that makes me feel good about this is that there's never been any kind of a "hey look at us! we're tolerant!" vibe, but rather everyone just shruggingly accepts everyone for who they are. Kinda like that Jewish carpenter dude.

[Matt Algren]

"Messy Christianity" - I like that term.A long time ago, Charles Caleb Colton said, "Life isn't like a book. Life isn't logical or sensible or orderly. Life is a mess most of the time. And theology must be lived in the midst of that mess." He's still right.

For me, the difference came when I stopped looking at church as a place I went to be served, and started looking at it as a place I went to serve.That's one of the most important lessons that most Christians never learn.

You might want to try to find a Metropolitan Community Church (MCC) (http://www.mccchurch.org/AM/Template.cfm?Section=Home). It's a traditional conservative Protestant Christian church for GLBT people.

This site (http://www.jesusmcc.org/resource/hb.html) is a wonderful site for Christian gays, and has a good archive of sermons on various topics with a pastor who is very engaging, entertaining, and good at educating.

I'm kinda fond of the "Little Girl, Arise" sermon myself, but there are others specifically addressing the specific issues that arise with GLBT Christians, but also find the "Families, as God sees them" sermon to be quite inspiring.

The United Church of Christ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G76dyQdgHp0), a mainstream Protestant church, isn't specifically for gays, but does welcome them without judgment.

Unity is also pretty cool with gays, and occupies a middle ground between Unitarians and traditional mainstream churches.

If you were raised Catholic, the Episcopaleans are as close in methodology and orthodoxy as you're going to get and don't have a problem with gays.Here's the thing, though. I can't imagine picking a church based solely on their stance on homosexuality. Maybe it's the Methodist in me, but it seems like a 'blinders on' approach.

FWIW, the Methodist church has had a lot of attention on this issue, and rightly so. As my minister said when I talked to him last fall, the 'line in the sand' as far as the Methodist Church is concerned is not with the individual, it's specifically with clergy. The Bishops' Council is this year, and I'm hopeful that the regulation against openly gay clergy will be overturned. I forget how close the vote was last time (four years ago), but it was razor thin.

Also FWIW, my minister and other Christian friends, to a one, have had no problem with me since October.

Thank you for your heart felt response.

Reading posts like this provides another nail in the coffin of my bigotry, so I appreciate it.

I honestly don't know how to reconcile traditional Christian beliefs regarding sex and marriage with monogamous homosexual love. I also can't imagine the "identity turmoil" you're going through. Reading posts like yours goes a long was in helping me to empathize to the struggle of faith for many homosexual Christians.That was one of the final hurdles I had to jump. This site (http://whosoever.org/bible/index.shtml) was a huge help, specifically the refutation of the clobber passages. Also, see David and Jonathan, beginning in 1 Samuel 18 or thereabouts.

[Matt Algren]

(it may surprise some people here to learn that I was actually our congregation's president during 2006)I'm sorry, but disbelief can only be suspended so far, Homer. I'll need to see documentation of some sort.

[Gilda Dent]

Here's the thing, though. I can't imagine picking a church based solely on their stance on homosexuality. Maybe it's the Methodist in me, but it seems like a 'blinders on' approach.

Oh, me neither. This is why I listed several gay friendly branches of Christianity from conservative (MCC) to liberal (Unity). Though I admire the view of homosexuality taken by the MCC churches and United Church of Christ, they remain somewhat too conservative regarding Christian Orthodoxy for me.

I wouldn't attend a church solely because of their stance on homosexuality, but it is one factor I take into account.

Also FWIW, my minister and other Christian friends, to a one, have had no problem with me since October.

Good for them.

That was one of the final hurdles I had to jump. This site (http://whosoever.org/bible/index.shtml) was a huge help, specifically the refutation of the clobber passages. Also, see David and Jonathan, beginning in 1 Samuel 18 or thereabouts.

Yep, good site.

[Paul McEnery]

I'm sorry, but disbelief can only be suspended so far, Homer. I'll need to see documentation of some sort.

He only did it because someone lied to him about the interns.

[Paul McEnery]

A long time ago, Charles Caleb Colton said, "Life isn't like a book. Life isn't logical or sensible or orderly. Life is a mess most of the time. And theology must be lived in the midst of that mess." He's still right.

A real important point.


Here's the thing, though. I can't imagine picking a church based solely on their stance on homosexuality. Maybe it's the Methodist in me, but it seems like a 'blinders on' approach.

Not a bad filter, though. It's like checking a country for how they treat women is a good index for development.


Also FWIW, my minister and other Christian friends, to a one, have had no problem with me since October.

Heh. You make it sound like it's you who's been on his best behaviour.

[Rob Allen]

People looking for a denomination with a good attitude should try to find a Friends ("Quakers") congregation. The ones that call themselves "Friends Church" tend to be similar to mainstream Protestant churches, while the ones called "Friends Meeting" tend to be clergy-less groups that sit together in silence, with any member free to speak. There's a wide range of attitudes and styles among Quakers, so if there are multiple groups in your area, they might have very little in common except that they identify with the history of the Society of Friends.

[Winslow]

True Rob.

The Quakers have had a tremendous historical influence towards tolerance here in Philadelphia and in Pennsylvania in general.

For years I served on a community board that organized serving meals to our communities' homeless population. Most of the church's that served in our board were Quaker, even though they are a minority faith in the area.

[K'Nort]

There's a wide range of attitudes and styles among Quakers, so if there are multiple groups in your area, they might have very little in common except that they identify with the history of the Society of Friends.

I'll say. There's that Quaker college in Oregon and I looked into applying for a job there and you have to sign one of those statements of beliefs that includes condemning homosexuality. I was not expecting that from that brand.

[Paul McEnery]

I'll say. There's that Quaker college in Oregon and I looked into applying for a job there and you have to sign one of those statements of beliefs that includes condemning homosexuality. I was not expecting that from that brand.

Who knew they were so fussy about how you have your oats?

[Sally Sensational]

And now a quick humor break, courtesy of my father:

During these serious times people of all faiths should remember these 4
Religious truths:


1. Muslims do not recognize Jews as God's chosen people.

2. Jews do not recognize Jesus as the Messiah.

3. Protestants do not recognize the Pope as the leader of the Christian world.

4. Baptists do not recognize each other at Hooters.

[Winslow]

And now a quick humor break, courtesy of my father:

HA! That was great.

Here's another along the same lines:

How do you keep your Baptist buddy from drinking all your beer when you go fishing? Invite another of his Baptist buddies along with him.

[Rob Allen]

I'll say. There's that Quaker college in Oregon and I looked into applying for a job there and you have to sign one of those statements of beliefs that includes condemning homosexuality. I was not expecting that from that brand.

Yes, George Fox University is on the far right wing of the Quaker spectrum. At the other end are Quaker groups that are not Christian or even theist. Try googling "quaker universalist" and "nontheist friends" for more info.