Spider-Man: Whats Changed, Whats the Same? [Archive]

ShaggyB

01-17-2008, 08:53 AM

Ok, lets start by agreeing that some of us are ok with the change and some of us hate it. That being said, this thread is about what has changed and what needs to be explained. So ill get it started with what i can remember from reading and my questions.

So in 546 it says spidey unmasked but no one can remember his identity.... In that same panel it goes on to say hes unlicensed and unregistered with no plans of doing so.

He has web shooters again.

He lives with aunt may.

He works at the bugle.

Mj and he didnt get married for some reason.

Gwen still died due to the fall and possible snapped neck web line issue.

Harry isnt dead.

Pete = broke again

OK Now for the questions:

1. Is it safe to assume pete never worked for tony?
2. Is spidey on the new avengers team? (If so howd that being naked with the team in the savage land work?)
3. Does spidey know of the skrull issues?
4. The Scarlet Spiders? (How do they fit in now?)
5. Do Eddie Brock, Norman Osbourne and Robbie know hes Spidey? (Would that mean on some level Harry knows still too, but sence hes forgotten hes goblin #2 he wouldnt remember until that comes back right?)
6. How deeply did caps death effect him? Where they as close if Cap didnt know his Secret Identity?
7. What happened to the Organic Webs?
8. "The Other" did it happen?
9. Is Eddie Brock still die'n of cancer?
10. When will the other books in the Marvel universe reflect Spideys reset?

Add your questions and if you know some answers lets hear them.

Ramiel

01-17-2008, 08:58 AM

5. Do Eddie Brock, Norman Osbourne and Robbie know hes Spidey? (Would that mean on some level Harry knows still too, but sence hes forgotten hes goblin #2 he wouldnt remember until that comes back right?)
6. How deeply did caps death effect him? Where they as close if Cap didnt know his Secret Identity?
9. Is Eddie Brock still die'n of cancer?

Add your questions and if you know some answers lets hear them.

5. No, it states explicitly that no one, No One knows he's Spider-Man.
6. I doubt Cap knowing who he was would lessen the blow, even if Cap didn't know him personally, he was still a personal hero of Petes and helped him multiple times.
9. Unknown as of, yet, if undoing the marriage can bring Harry back, maybe because of that Eddie didn't get cancer, time will only tell.

ShaggyB

01-17-2008, 09:05 AM

5. No, it states explicitly that no one, No One knows he's Spider-Man.

problem with that is that Venom has to know for the character to work. Brock hates parker Symbiote hates spidey, the merge to from Venom to torment Parker/Spidey. Venom doesnt work unless he knows. (given thats not venom anymore but you get what im saying)

On the same note. Gwen would have never died because Norman would have never known. He has to know for that to work.

Then add in the fact that Robbie always knew. He pieced it together himself. So he has to still know / be pretty sure pete and spidey are connected to even make the comments he does to pete in the latest issue.

So while i get that it says no one knows, it cant mean it or the stories dont work. Either they come right out and say that all those characters use to know but magic has erased it from there memory..... or they have to admit that some of them still know as its core components to their characters.

(If Goblin forgot who spidey is then pete would have to know why he forgot, which means pete would remember OMD and he cant because of that deal. See the confusion)

This would be a lot easier if they had said spidey never revealed his ID to any team he was on... aka never worked for tony and never publicly unmasked. That keeps may alive and then we get what changes with the marriage.

Brand

01-17-2008, 09:18 AM

Gwen still died due to the fall and possible snapped neck web line issue.

Here's a question. The segment on Gwen said specifically that she was killed BY THE GREEN GOBLIN, not that she was killed during a battle between the GG and Spider-Man. That means the theory of Spider-Man's webline causing her neck to snap is now no longer viable.

As for your questions, the way I understand things is that everything happened but Mephisto's spell caused everyone to forget Peter's identity. So all that stuff happened (GG taking Gwen, Peter naked in the Savage Land, the unmasking, etc.) but everyone has now forgotten all those details. This has to mean that May's house was destroyed and rebuilt by the spell, which makes no sense. Similarly, if The Other happened, then Mephisto somehow was able to strip Peter of his powers, even though that was never a part of the deal.

Characters that are most affected by the changes should include Venom, Black Cat, and people who knew Peter's identity or had a lot of interaction with him like Johnny Storm. Also, wasn't it revealed in one issue that Dr. Connors had known his identity for a long time? I can't remember for certain.

Basically, this retcon doesn't work no matter how you try to wrap your head around it. I'd love to talk to the people behind it, because it would be so easy to punch holes in whatever they could come up with to explain away how this thing is supposed to work without causing massive effects in the entire 616-BND (the new Marvel alternate universe ;) ).

Mister Mets

01-17-2008, 09:19 AM

problem with that is that Venom has to know for the character to work. Brock hates parker Symbiote hates spidey, the merge to from Venom to torment Parker/Spidey. Venom doesnt work unless he knows. (given thats not venom anymore but you get what im saying)

On the same note. Gwen would have never died because Norman would have never known. He has to know for that to work.

Then add in the fact that Robbie always knew. He pieced it together himself. So he has to still know / be pretty sure pete and spidey are connected to even make the comments he does to pete in the latest issue.

So while i get that it says no one knows, it cant mean it or the stories dont work. Either they come right out and say that all those characters use to know but magic has erased it from there memory..... or they have to admit that some of them still know as its core components to their characters.

(If Goblin forgot who spidey is then pete would have to know why he forgot, which means pete would remember OMD and he cant because of that deal. See the confusion)

This would be a lot easier if they had said spidey never revealed his ID to any team he was on... aka never worked for tony and never publicly unmasked. That keeps may alive and then we get what changes with the marriage.

There's a distinction here. It says in the new status quo spotlight that "no one knows Spider-man's identity." People could have remembered in the past, but no one remembers.

The most likely scenario with Gwen Stacy is that Norman Osborn killed her because Peter Parker was Spider-Man, but the Green Goblin has now somehow forgotten his archenemy's identity (which happened all the time in the Silver Age.)

It's noted that many people remember Spider-Man unmasking. They just can't remember who was behind the mask.

Mister Mets

01-17-2008, 09:22 AM

Here's a question. The segment on Gwen said specifically that she was killed BY THE GREEN GOBLIN, not that she was killed during a battle between the GG and Spider-Man. That means the theory of Spider-Man's webline causing her neck to snap is now no longer viable.

As for your questions, the way I understand things is that everything happened but Mephisto's spell caused everyone to forget Peter's identity. So all that stuff happened (GG taking Gwen, Peter naked in the Savage Land, the unmasking, etc.) but everyone has now forgotten all those details. This has to mean that May's house was destroyed and rebuilt by the spell, which makes no sense. Similarly, if The Other happened, then Mephisto somehow was able to strip Peter of his powers, even though that was never a part of the deal.

Characters that are most affected by the changes should include Venom, Black Cat, and people who knew Peter's identity or had a lot of interaction with him like Johnny Storm. Also, wasn't it revealed in one issue that Dr. Connors had known his identity for a long time? I can't remember for certain.

Basically, this retcon doesn't work no matter how you try to wrap your head around it. I'd love to talk to the people behind it, because it would be so easy to punch holes in whatever they could come up with to explain away how this thing is supposed to work without causing massive effects in the entire 616-BND (the new Marvel alternate universe ;) ).
Keep in mind Mary Jane did whisper something to Mephisto.

So technically what she whispered could have led to all the other things happening (Harry Osborn coming back, "The Other" being undone, etc.)

Some of the changes to Spider-Man may have nothing to do with Mephisto. For all we know, "Harry Osborn" is really the Chameleon in disguise.

Then there's the "It's Magic. We don't have to explain shit." excuse.

Sonicjuce

01-17-2008, 09:27 AM

He works at the bugle.

Peter doesn't actually work at the Bugle though. He only went there to get some money for them printing his pictures. If you remember he was trying to get a new job teaching.

No offense but did we really need this thread? I think there is a thread for almost everyone of your questions.

matthewaos

01-17-2008, 09:28 AM

Yeah, I can't understand how Norman simply forgot.

I would like to know what happened with Harry, and what does this mean for the clone saga, if Peter and MJ ever had a child, what happened with Peter's and Black cat's relationship.

matthewaos

01-17-2008, 10:02 AM

So as someone said in another thread, will it be safe to assume the Norman Osborn had some children with a random chick, who may or may not have a relation to Spider-Man, he raised those kids to kill someone who is Spider-Man, but does not remember who, orchestrated a plan to clone this guy he does not remember, just because he was so pissed cause of his son's death... oh wait! That didn't happen! He also had this guy he does not remember tortured all day to convince him be his son, etc etc...

ShaggyB

01-17-2008, 10:13 AM

No offense but did we really need this thread? I think there is a thread for almost everyone of your questions.

Non-taken, I looked and didnt see one. if there is my bad.

As to pete working for the bugle i meant in a freelance photographer style.

Also the whole robbie thing throws the noone out the window. He clearly has some assumptions, which before the big reveal he clearly had then. So its safe to say hes at the same point he was before civil war. hes about 95% sure pete is spidey. Otherwise why would he word his get me photos of spidey the way he did?

illma3

01-17-2008, 10:18 AM

ShaggyB

01-17-2008, 10:28 AM

This is such a convulted mess.

Is there any way out of it?

There has to be a few charactes who either know or suspect of Spider-Man's true identity. I guess only time will tell.

But the way things are going I think not having a stable creative team will cause all the more problems, especially with JoeQ at the helm.

I foresee a mess coming, but a way out is easy, provided the door is established with what MJ whispered. (which btw was dumb sense Pete would never remember it to begin with. Why not just say it out loud.)

superfriend

01-17-2008, 10:49 AM

how did Aunt May get shot anyway? was it because of the unmasking? I thought the Kingpin was involved but I'm not sure if that was made abundantly clear.

if the unmasking happened but no one knew it, then Aunt May can't be discovered as Spider-Man's aunt and therefore, she isn't shot--if it was due to the identity reveal.

if the shooting happened b/c of the unmasking and then back in black and then the unmasking was undone then Spider-Man is in a tangential timeline.

not to mention how the timeline must've taken a different shift when Peter and MJ didn't get married.

the Spider-Man in BND can't really be the same Spider-Man that's in New Avengers or elsewhere unless the entire MU was impacted by Mephisto's power. if that's the case, then ramifications go beyond Spider-Man.

has it been established that the Spider-Man in BND is 616 Spider-Man?

darksaint124

01-17-2008, 11:40 AM

Blader5489

01-17-2008, 12:09 PM

OK Now for the questions:

1. Is it safe to assume pete never worked for tony?
2. Is spidey on the new avengers team? (If so howd that being naked with the team in the savage land work?)
3. Does spidey know of the skrull issues?
4. The Scarlet Spiders? (How do they fit in now?)
5. Do Eddie Brock, Norman Osbourne and Robbie know hes Spidey? (Would that mean on some level Harry knows still too, but sence hes forgotten hes goblin #2 he wouldnt remember until that comes back right?)
6. How deeply did caps death effect him? Where they as close if Cap didnt know his Secret Identity?
7. What happened to the Organic Webs?
8. "The Other" did it happen?
9. Is Eddie Brock still die'n of cancer?
10. When will the other books in the Marvel universe reflect Spideys reset?

Add your questions and if you know some answers lets hear them.

1) He still worked with Tony, but neither of them remember it.
2) He's still with the NA and he was still naked in the Savage Land. Again, the event wasn't erased, just forgotten.
3) Most likely.
4) What about them?
5) Nobody knows who Spider-Man is. Everyone has forgotten his identity.
6) Pete has always revered Cap and looked up to him, so his death would still affect Pete the same way.
7) Gone, apparently.
8) The Other still happened, but Pete has inexplicably lost those new powers.
9) Most likely, especially since the symbiote is still with Gargan.
10) How would they do that?

It's really not that difficult to understand, guys. Some things still need explaining (like how Harry not dying factors into Mephisto's deal and what happened to keep Pete and MJ from getting married), but most things can be deduced on your own.

superfriend

01-17-2008, 12:16 PM

I could try to answer everyone's questions and the OP, but my head is hurting from too much in the last week. To answer your question, it has not been confirmed, but with the Hood gathering villains(I don't know how that works with Spidey/original costume) and the SHRA in place it most likely is "616"(I hate that term)

ah, good point.

plus with the footnote to the older issues of Amazing, I do think it's supposed to be 616.

yeah, i'm not too fond of the 616 distinction either. it's just becoming more and more necessary. i guess we could call the Spider-Man in Amazing the "real" Spider-Man but in my experience it seems to annoy some Ultimate readers who feel like that's "their" Spider-Man and more "real" to them than the Spider-Man in Amazing or Marvel Adventures line.

Plus, with Marvel being the more realistic superhero universe then their Distinguished Competition or Disposable Comics (isn't that what Marts called them?) then it just seems right to try and figure some of this stuff out. I don't think the "it's magic, we don't have to explain it" is an exaggeration and Joe being a big True Believer, I don't think he'd mean to dismiss anyone who wants to understand the ramifications of what happened with Spider-Man. Marvel's always been about ramifications and realistic consequences.

although, now that i think about it, did Joe say that footnotes were not new-reader friendly...or was that Jemas?--and that's why they said they were going to get rid of them back in the 00s. has to be Jemas, there was so much stuff being said back then that I know Joe had to be quietly against or just think Jemas didn't know what he was talking about.

anyhoo, if Spider-Man is 616 then that means that Mephisto changed all of reality--a very formidable being now. i'd be interested in reading a story about Mephisto given this huge powerful move. maybe he's always had it but had his reasons for not altering the timeline in the past or maybe something happened to him that gave him this power. has he or will he make offers, etc to other heroes in the future? definitely something to watch.

Noronha

01-17-2008, 12:18 PM

1) He still worked with Tony, but neither of them remember it.
2) He's still with the NA and he was still naked in the Savage Land. Again, the event wasn't erased, just forgotten.
3) Most likely.
4) What about them?
5) Nobody knows who Spider-Man is. Everyone has forgotten his identity.
6) Pete has always revered Cap and looked up to him, so his death would still affect Pete the same way.
7) Gone, apparently.
8) The Other still happened, but Pete has inexplicably lost those new powers.
9) Most likely, especially since the symbiote is still with Gargan.
10) How would they do that?

It's really not that difficult to understand, guys. Some things still need explaining (like how Harry not dying factors into Mephisto's deal and what happened to keep Pete and MJ from getting married), but most things can be deduced on your own.

Now i know why Joe thinks that he doesn´t have to explain shit.
There are only 2 ways of dealing with OMD and the retcon:
1-Admit that a whole lot of things don´t make sense and continuity is screwed,but you don´t give a crap and just want good stories move forward.
2-Admit that a whole lot of things don´t make sense and continuity is screwed and you can´t get pass this issue and drop the book.

One thing is for sure a whole lot of things don´t make sense and continuity is screwed to try to make sense out of it is just living in denial.

superfriend

01-17-2008, 12:22 PM

1) He still worked with Tony, but neither of them remember it.
2) He's still with the NA and he was still naked in the Savage Land. Again, the event wasn't erased, just forgotten.
3) Most likely.
4) What about them?
5) Nobody knows who Spider-Man is. Everyone has forgotten his identity.
6) Pete has always revered Cap and looked up to him, so his death would still affect Pete the same way.
7) Gone, apparently.
8) The Other still happened, but Pete has inexplicably lost those new powers.
9) Most likely, especially since the symbiote is still with Gargan.
10) How would they do that?

It's really not that difficult to understand, guys. Some things still need explaining (like how Harry not dying factors into Mephisto's deal and what happened to keep Pete and MJ from getting married), but most things can be deduced on your own.

i have a question then.

The Scarlet Spiders are using the Iron Spidey suit that Tony made for Peter when they were working together. So they worked together but they can't remember why they worked together or why an Iron Spidey suit was made and why it's being used for The Initiative.

oh, and Tony (or Jarvis) payed for Aunt May's hospital stay but do they wonder why they payed for a random strangers very expensive medical bills?

thanks for your insight in advance.

Berkey

01-17-2008, 12:34 PM

It's almost like everything is back in time for Parker, but the rest of the world is in normal time. The war and registration occured, most likely cap's death and other events, but Peter is at home, Harry is alive, he's wearing his old 'web under the arms' costume, back to web-shooters and so forth. It's strange, but hopefully they'll work it all out, because personally I liked seeing Peter go through those rough times and come out on top, not to mention reading his other arcs and tie ins with other comics which now is in limbo with timelines and all sorts of facts that we could try and explain each senerio all day, but we won't. Maybe Aunt May will get hit by a car driven by MJ with irony on the license plate what a twist that would be.

Mister Mets

01-17-2008, 12:43 PM

I foresee a mess coming, but a way out is easy, provided the door is established with what MJ whispered. (which btw was dumb sense Pete would never remember it to begin with. Why not just say it out loud.)I think it was more so the reader wouldn't know.

And Perhaps Mary Jane didn't want Peter to know what she was offering.

superfriend

01-17-2008, 12:53 PM

another thing about Peter's identity is that it's tied to his joining the New Avengers.

In New Avengers #3, Cap tracks Peter down at his school that he's teaching at. He gets Peter's identity from SHIELD--Peter asks.

So, if SHIELD doesn't have Peter's identity then Cap couldn't find Peter and ask him to join the New Avengers. but then a No-Prize worthy explanation could be that because Peter's mask also came off during the prison break so maybe Cap tracked him a different way and Cap died with the secret.

but then, it could also be that it happened exactly as it did in New Avengers #3 but when Mephisto changed the 616 universe, he could've also wiped out any reference to Peter's ID in the SHIELD database but it also speaks to how SHIELD had Peter's ID anyway. If Tony is any more competent than Fury or Hill (whichever figured out Peter was Spider-Man in the first place) then SHIELD will know that Peter is Spider-Man pretty quick one would think--especially if Peter is unregistered and working unlicensed.

I would think Spider-Man being so popular a figure, Tony would definitely know who Spider-Man is and knowing that he's not registered would be very interested in finding out Peter's ID.

more to come...

Berkey

01-17-2008, 12:59 PM

superfriend

01-17-2008, 01:06 PM

this is one of a 1000 diffrent fact/scenerios that need to or could be explained with twist and turns, but knowing Marvel I'd say just sit back and try not to think too much becuse if it makes money, no back ties are needed.

i'm just doing it for fun. it's been a hoot going back and re-reading everything with this new change in effect.

like before the New Avengers go to the Savage Land, Peter, from the quinjet, tells them he needs to call his wife. Tony says, "say 'phone' and then the number". they all quip about Tony's cool toys.

aside from Tony's database that might've potentially logged that number that Peter called being wiped out by Mephisto, Peter also never had to call his wife at that time.

it's just sorta interesting to me s'all. just thought i'd share the more important stuff cause it seems like others are interested as well. I don't expect or demand that Marvel do anything about it--it's purely for my own enjoyment. no worries here.

Berkey

01-17-2008, 02:08 PM

i'm just doing it for fun. it's been a hoot going back and re-reading everything with this new change in effect.

like before the New Avengers go to the Savage Land, Peter, from the quinjet, tells them he needs to call his wife. Tony says, "say 'phone' and then the number". they all quip about Tony's cool toys.

aside from Tony's database that might've potentially logged that number that Peter called being wiped out by Mephisto, Peter also never had to call his wife at that time.

it's just sorta interesting to me s'all. just thought i'd share the more important stuff cause it seems like others are interested as well. I don't expect or demand that Marvel do anything about it--it's purely for my own enjoyment. no worries here.

Oh I agree with what you're saying, I'm just kind of disapointed with the way Marvel has gone as of late and now they make yet another huge change, and unless they plan on making these fact/scenerio more clear I beleive it will just be a total disaster IMO.

Sonicjuce

01-17-2008, 02:16 PM

One thing is for sure a whole lot of things don´t make sense and continuity is screwed to try to make sense out of it is just living in denial.

I don't get why people keep asking questions about the continuity. None of us have the answers. I don't even think JQ has them yet...

Berkey

01-17-2008, 02:28 PM

I don't get why people keep asking questions about the continuity. None of us have the answers. I don't even think JQ has them yet...

I agree but I'm sure JQ must have thought of this problem and wil prolly explain them somehow in the future or something will come up. If he didn't then Marvel and Joe made a huge mistake. Personally I wish they would have kept the past/present or what ever the same like they did ith the House of M, yea it was a little diffrent, but it worked. Really I wanted to see them stay together and May die, but what can you do.

Noronha

01-17-2008, 02:28 PM

I don't get why people keep asking questions about the continuity. None of us have the answers. I don't even think JQ has them yet...

I think they´re more like rethorical questions.
A way to vent the anger boiling up inside

Blader5489

01-17-2008, 02:38 PM

Now i know why Joe thinks that he doesn´t have to explain shit.
There are only 2 ways of dealing with OMD and the retcon:
1-Admit that a whole lot of things don´t make sense and continuity is screwed,but you don´t give a crap and just want good stories move forward.
2-Admit that a whole lot of things don´t make sense and continuity is screwed and you can´t get pass this issue and drop the book.

One thing is for sure a whole lot of things don´t make sense and continuity is screwed to try to make sense out of it is just living in denial.

So I give a list of explanations and you complain that continuity is screwed up and nothing makes sense? :rolleyes:

i have a question then.

The Scarlet Spiders are using the Iron Spidey suit that Tony made for Peter when they were working together. So they worked together but they can't remember why they worked together or why an Iron Spidey suit was made and why it's being used for The Initiative.

Just because Tony doesn't remember Pete's identity doesn't mean he didn't work with him. He remembers working with Spider-Man and using that data to make the Scarlet Spider suits, but he doesn't remember Peter Parker.

another thing about Peter's identity is that it's tied to his joining the New Avengers.

I think you're confused. It's not a retroactive mindwipe; it didn't actually change or erase events that pertain to somebody knowing Peter's identity. What changed was the memory of those events. For example, the Spidey/Human Torch miniseries still happened, but neither one of them remembers it now.

Noronha

01-17-2008, 02:40 PM

So I give a list of explanations and you complain that continuity is screwed up and nothing makes sense? :rolleyes:

With all due respect i didn´t see any explanation,just the same argument Joe used:"It´s magic we don´t have to explain it"
You basically used his words to try to make some sense of it

DarKye

01-17-2008, 02:44 PM

Just because Tony doesn't remember Pete's identity doesn't mean he didn't work with him. He remembers working with Spider-Man and using that data to make the Scarlet Spider suits, but he doesn't remember Peter Parker.

I think you're confused. It's not a retroactive mindwipe; it didn't actually change or erase events that pertain to somebody knowing Peter's identity. What changed was the memory of those events. For example, the Spidey/Human Torch miniseries still happened, but neither one of them remembers it now.

Bingo. That is the only way to see it that makes sense.

There are minor problems though. For instance, does May remember living in Avengers Tower for weeks/months, or is all that a blank spot of lost time when she tries to recall what happened?

superfriend

01-17-2008, 02:47 PM

Just because Tony doesn't remember Pete's identity doesn't mean he didn't work with him. He remembers working with Spider-Man and using that data to make the Scarlet Spider suits, but he doesn't remember Peter Parker.

so, Tony was working with Spider-Man and not Peter Parker. Was Spider-Man registered like Peter was? and if so, how did Spider-Man register without giving his ID? Does Tony think about this?

I'll have to go back and re-read the Road to Civil War again and see exactly how it went with getting the Iron Spidey suit.

I think you're confused. It's not a retroactive mindwipe; it didn't actually change or erase events that pertain to somebody knowing Peter's identity. What changed was the memory of those events. For example, the Spidey/Human Torch miniseries still happened, but neither one of them remembers it now.

yeah, i think i'm getting it...slowly. :p

i don't know that i've ever really worked with a retcon like this. it's sort've unique. even if it doesn't seem like there are logical solutions, the answer is Mephisto--i'm currently getting out all apps by Mephisto from my collection to re-read his progression coming to this point to see if i can pinpoint where he got this much power or if he had it all along just chose not to use it.

sure is fun. thanks for your help.

DDM

01-17-2008, 02:53 PM

i don't know that i've ever really worked with a retcon like this. it's sort've unique. even if it doesn't seem like there are logical solutions, the answer is Mephisto--i'm currently getting out all apps by Mephisto from my collection to re-read his progression coming to this point to see if i can pinpoint where he got this much power or if he had it all along just chose not to use it.

sure is fun. thanks for your help.

No, the problem is the use of Mephisto. Mephisto does not possess the power to alter the time-space continuum outside of his own realm. Mephisto NEEDS the Cosmic Cube, a working Infinity Gauntlet, or he needs to murder the cosmic being, Eternity & take his place. Then you need to ask the question: If Mephisto had such powers, why would he be concerend about one mortal, Peter Parker? Mephisto could just alter reality at will in his own image.

Joe Quesada wrote Mephisto with powers he never possessed before. That's the problem.

mikekerr3

01-17-2008, 03:10 PM

So I give a list of explanations and you complain that continuity is screwed up and nothing makes sense? :rolleyes: [/B].

.

Your explanations didn't answer the questions more than""It's Magic" does.

Tony has all the data to create the Iron Spiders but doesn't have a set of fingerprints?

matthewaos

01-17-2008, 03:21 PM

How the "he forget" argument makes sense? Really, can you please tell me, cause I'm turning desperate here! Do I remember what I ate yesterday? Sometimes no, who cares anyway? Do I remember the name of the girl I love (so much btw)?, My birthday? My mom's name? What do I wanna do when I grow up? NO!!!!

DarKye

01-17-2008, 03:29 PM

Tony has all the data to create the Iron Spiders but doesn't have a set of fingerprints?

Mephisto deletes that (or anything concerning Peter's ID), but leaves the rest of the info intact? Seriously, why would the MVP suits require Peter's data at all? They are modified to their new users.

It's not a concept hard to understand. The only problem, as DDM already pointed out, is that Mephisto shouldn't have this sort of reality-bending power.

Well, and the fact that most of Peter's acquaintances now have a memory that looks like a swiss cheese.

superfriend

01-17-2008, 03:49 PM

It's funny, Tony gave Peter the Iron Spidey suit after Peter had moved in with him in Avengers Tower. Tony knew Peter was Spider-Man before the suit came about. He gave Peter the suit just to do him a favor. We know Peter eventually goes on to register/or was registered already--and part of that was revealing his ID--which he did in spades by going on national TV to do it.

Now, if Tony just gave Spider-Man a new suit one assumes Tony and Spider-Man were on good terms. At the time, being on good terms with Tony Stark meant being registered. Of course, being registered meant giving up your ID.

Now, if Peter is unregistered and Tony doesn't know Peter is Spider-Man then the motivation for creating and giving the Iron Spidey suit to Spider-Man is called into question. Why would Tony give a powerful new suit to an unregistered, unrevealed Spider-Man?

Now, one could say that everything happened as it did it's just that now, Tony and no one remembers that Peter is Spider-Man. So, really some of the most pivotal elements of what is transpiring in the MU right now and how it developed are simply not remembered by key people same as someone would forget where they put their car keys.

Methinks Tony will be going after Spider-Man soon. It's not like Spider-Man is just another unregistered. This has to be sticking in Tony's craw. The Iron Spidey suit (now used in the Initiative) is an artifact, almost evidence, of a misremembered past. It sticks out like a sore thumb. Since it's not uncommon for something like this to happen because of the Sentry (who Tony has been harboring and aiding psychologically)...a precedent is made and Tony is close to it. He knows something like this is possible. He's going to figure it out.

Blader5489

01-17-2008, 04:13 PM

With all due respect i didn´t see any explanation,just the same argument Joe used:"It´s magic we don´t have to explain it"
You basically used his words to try to make some sense of it

And you derived that from...where? I gave answers based on the information available. I never pulled the "it's magic" card.

so, Tony was working with Spider-Man and not Peter Parker. Was Spider-Man registered like Peter was? and if so, how did Spider-Man register without giving his ID? Does Tony think about this?

Again, those events still happened as you read them. Only the memories of those events changed.

yeah, i think i'm getting it...slowly. :p

i don't know that i've ever really worked with a retcon like this. it's sort've unique.

It's not really that unique. Reed Richards did the same thing when he erased all memory of the Sentry from the world. Actually, what Reed did is almost exactly the same as the mindwipe that Mephisto performed.

superfriend

01-17-2008, 04:24 PM

Again, those events still happened as you read them. Only the memories of those events changed.

i think it's the actual objects/artifacts/evidence of a lost memories that are eventually going to lead to this being uncovered. like the Iron Spidey suit. unless history has been rewritten (and we're working from the assumption that it hasn't) then the Iron Spider-Man suit is proof that something is amiss.

It's not really that unique. Reed Richards did the same thing when he erased all memory of the Sentry from the world. Actually, what Reed did is almost exactly the same as the mindwipe that Mephisto performed.

yeah but The Sentry never really existed before his origin was revealed. to do it with Spider-Man seems to have a little grander effect.

that's what i'm talking about. not really the conceptual nature of the retcon but what it does to all those real stories written by real writers in real time--not the fictional history the Sentry has before appearing for the first time in 2001 or whenever.

but yeah, for story purposes, i think the Sentry example makes it easier for the characters to think something has gone wrong when they begin to discover their memories are missing.

all someone would have to do is ask why Tony Stark made the Scarlet Spider suits--like a reporter at a news conference or something.

matthewaos

01-17-2008, 04:25 PM

Yeah, identical the same. Only problem is that the Sentry created in 2000.

Brand

01-17-2008, 04:32 PM

i think it's the actual objects/artifacts/evidence of a lost memories that are eventually going to lead to this being uncovered. like the Iron Spidey suit. unless history has been rewritten (and we're working from the assumption that it hasn't) then the Iron Spider-Man suit is proof that something is amiss.

Actually, history has to have been rewritten somewhat.

1) JQ said the marriage never existed, that something happened on the wedding day to prevent Peter and MJ from going through with getting married.

2) May's house is back, or it was never destroyed in the first place.

3) Peter has lost many of his powers, or he never received them in the first place.

4) It is still unclear just what baby May's status is now. Since JQ has said he thinks it would look bad for Peter Parker to get his girlfriend pregnant, it's entirely possible that MJ's pregnancy during the Clone Saga has been retconned.

5) Harry is alive. If he still died years ago, then it would be hard to explain his appearance now. I'm guessing his death has been retconned.

Those are just a few of the obvious changes off the top of my head, and I'm sure there are others. The problems that arise from these changes, not to mention the memory wipe, are the big issue.

superfriend

01-17-2008, 04:36 PM

well done. good list thank you.

i've managed to pull my Spider-Man comics beginning with the marriage on but it's going to take a while to get through them and figure out what's been done.

you're right though. there're definitely some stories that are left untold. it isn't all just a matter of reading these old stories and then assuming with OMD #4 every memory is wiped.

Nik Drou

01-17-2008, 04:46 PM

I know I'm still new here, but can I just step in and clear up this argument a little? Bear with me...

I'm confused about the changes made to continuity following One More Day.

Oh, continuity hasnt changed, people just remember it differently.

How so?

Well, no-one now remembers his secret identity, and Peter & MJ werent married.

Oh, so they really are still married?

No, that actually has changed.

Ah, and that hasn't affected the rest of continuity at all?

Surprisingly not. Everything turned out exactly as it would've done had they just been living together all this time.

Wow...really? what about Chaos Theory and the Butterfly Effect?

......with the what-now?

Oh, never mind....well, that's not so bad, I guess...

Yeah, plus Harry Osbourn's back.

Hmm?

Sorry, i should've mentioned that earlier.

He's back from the dead?

No, he never died.

.....Well...okay, but the continuity hasn't changed, right? So he's still been dead all this time, people just.....remember that he's alive?.

Well.....no. He actually never died. He's just been in Europe all this time.

So everything that happened still happened as it did, despite the fact Harry did not die.

That's it! You're doing very well.

....You know, I have to say that's really unlikely.

I'm sorry?

You can't just change something major and then say that 'things would've happened exactly the same way regardless'.

Why not? It really would've. Go check it out, I've done my research, buddy. We value our continuity here at Marvel.

Ok, ok......so let me get all this straight. Continuity definitely hasn't changed...

Yuh-huh

...except for the marriage, and except for Harry Osbourn.

...and except for the webshooters.

What?

Yeah! The old webshooters are back!! Aren't they cool? Like in the old days where Peter would run out of web fluid at a really awkward moment, wasnt it just great when that happened?

No, it was annoying. I'm glad they got rid of it.

...

Sorry.

No, no...it's ok. People like it.

Yeah, I know. Well, I can see now why people are upset. You've stressed that continuity hasn't changed, yet you've made these alterations....

Ah! but they didnt actually alter the course of events...

But they should've!! You've just cheapened the very continuity you sought to protect...

Look, it's...

So what you're saying is, married or not, it didnt make a difference, right?

......right...

SO WHY DID YOU GET RID OF THE MARRIAGE IN THE FIRST PLACE??

......You know, you're taking this all waaay too seriously. I just want to tell some stories here. I've been waiting so long to tell these stories...

DarKye

01-17-2008, 04:55 PM

Lol Nik Drou, I had a chuckle out of that. Lemme just point out a thing though....

Wow...really? what about Chaos Theory and the Butterfly Effect?

......with the what-now?

--

You can't just change something major and then say that 'things would've happened exactly the same way regardless'.

Why not? It really would've. Go check it out, I've done my research, buddy. We value our continuity here at Marvel.

There is actually a What If? where Peter doesn't marry MJ. And believe me, things end up being very, very different. :p

matthewaos

01-17-2008, 05:12 PM

So what you're saying is, married or not, it didnt make a difference, right?

......right...

SO WHY DID YOU GET RID OF THE MARRIAGE IN THE FIRST PLACE??

......You know, you're taking this all waaay too seriously. I just want to tell some stories here. I've been waiting so long to tell these stories...

Yeah, that is why I ask. Stil can't find an answer...

Nik Drou

01-17-2008, 05:55 PM

Lol Nik Drou, I had a chuckle out of that. Lemme just point out a thing though....

There is actually a What If? where Peter doesn't marry MJ. And believe me, things end up being very, very different. :p

I have not read that one. Either way, thank you for proving my point. I'm dreading the inevitable OMD-related What if?, where Peter says no and MJ ends up leaving him anyway or something.

superfriend

01-17-2008, 06:17 PM

Despite Tony not remembering that Peter Parker and Spider-Man are one and the same, I wonder if Tony is now on good terms with Peter Parker who lived in Avengers Tower as well as traveled with him to speak in front of Congress--where Peter actually addressed a session of senators regarding the SHRA.

Clearly Tony wouldn't remember that Peter is Spider-Man but what would he think when he recalls the last year where Peter and his live-in girlfriend lived with him and Peter even accompanying him to Congress during that formidable time. He must ask himself why he associated so closely and sought the loyalty of a high school teacher.

Blader5489

01-17-2008, 06:38 PM

i think it's the actual objects/artifacts/evidence of a lost memories that are eventually going to lead to this being uncovered.

Evidence of Peter being Spider-Man would be erased, which is what happened with the Sentry.

Despite Tony not remembering that Peter Parker and Spider-Man are one and the same, I wonder if Tony is now on good terms with Peter Parker who lived in Avengers Tower as well as traveled with him to speak in front of Congress--where Peter actually addressed a session of senators regarding the SHRA.

Clearly Tony wouldn't remember that Peter is Spider-Man but what would he think when he recalls the last year where Peter and his live-in girlfriend lived with him and Peter even accompanying him to Congress during that formidable time. He must ask himself why he associated so closely and sought the loyalty of a high school teacher.

He wouldn't remember that; he wouldn't retain any memory of Peter. Again, just like the Sentry.

DarKye

01-17-2008, 06:50 PM

Evidence of Peter being Spider-Man would be erased, which is what happened with the Sentry.

He wouldn't remember that; he wouldn't retain any memory of Peter. Again, just like the Sentry.

Yeah, but you can't really compare the Sentry with Spidey.

Case in point, Peter Parker won a Pulitzer for the picture he took of the Sentry. After the mindwipe, after this picture was gone, all memory of the prize was gone too.
The Sentry mindwipe altered reality in a way. It removed the evidence that would have led to the Sentry being uncovered. The prize was gone, the picture was a blank piece of paper for everyone but Bob.

While I agree something very similar could have been done by Mephisto, the Scarlet Spiders, a result of Peter & Tony's friendship have not been eliminated from continuity.

Basically, we're working with both the knowledge of the identities and the consequences from knowing the identities.

The Sentry retcon removes both, Mephisto only removes the knowledge, while the consequences are intact. So yes, that's a big hole and people can use it to figure out the whole thing.

superfriend

01-17-2008, 06:55 PM

Evidence of Peter being Spider-Man would be erased, which is what happened with the Sentry.

So the Iron Spidey suit never happened? Did it originate with the Initiative then?

That's not just memory loss, that's a rewrite.

He wouldn't remember that; he wouldn't retain any memory of Peter. Again, just like the Sentry.

Surely everyone remembers who Peter Parker is don't they? It's not like the identity of Peter Parker is gone too. Aunt May, Harry, everyone from the Bugle...they all remember Peter. They also remember Spider-Man. They just don't remember they're one and the same.

I don't see why Tony or the senators that Peter addressed would forget that the human being named Peter Parker exists. If so, then that's a rewrite too. If Peter Parker used his charge card when he was visiting Washington during that time would it be like it never happened?

Orin GA

01-17-2008, 06:57 PM

I bet lyla knows who spiderman is

Noronha

01-17-2008, 07:18 PM

And you derived that from...where? I gave answers based on the information available. I never pulled the "it's magic" card.

1) He still worked with Tony, but neither of them remember it.
2) He's still with the NA and he was still naked in the Savage Land. Again, the event wasn't erased, just forgotten.
5) Nobody knows who Spider-Man is. Everyone has forgotten his identity.
8) The Other still happened, but Pete has inexplicably lost those new powers.

1-Why can´t he remember?Magic
2-Why was it forgotten?Magic
5-Why does nobody remember?Magic
8-Inexplicably

Clearly you didn´t use the "it´s magic we dont have top explain it"argument sorry my mistake.

Blader5489

01-17-2008, 08:30 PM

1-Why can´t he remember?Magic
2-Why was it forgotten?Magic
5-Why does nobofy remembers?Magic

I'm sorry that I couldn't elaborate on the science of erasing memories. :rolleyes:

Noronha

01-17-2008, 09:10 PM

I'm sorry that I couldn't elaborate on the science of erasing memories. :rolleyes:

It´s not your fault,clearly in this case there is no science.I mean even Joe himself has no idea of how it works how can you.
It´s like i said either you accept it and move on or you don´t,one thing is certain tough,none of it makes sense.

vitruvian

01-18-2008, 12:59 PM

He wouldn't remember that; he wouldn't retain any memory of Peter. Again, just like the Sentry.

So, Wolverine doesn't remember hitting on Mary Jane, and Mary Jane and Aunt May don't recall living at Avengers Tower? If Aunt May runs into Jarvis on the street, will they remember each other?

Red Lotus

01-18-2008, 02:19 PM

"Harry Osborn" is really the Chameleon in disguise.

Then there's the "It's Magic. We don't have to explain shit." excuse.

Harry is a Skrull. Did you see his big green eyes. :D

ZT4

01-18-2008, 02:51 PM

Magic is perspective science, sleight of hand stuff and power of suggestion. Mephisto is'nt just a magician, but a hypno-therapist

So yeah, they COULD explain it, because it's all based in very acheivable things...

..Wow, Mephisto is almost as relatable as Spidey used to be...

superfriend

01-18-2008, 06:03 PM

So far, it looks like what's changed are:

-The marriage never happened.
Joe has said they almost got married way back when but something happened to stop the marriage. Some have said that Peter and MJ have just been boy/girlfriend all these years. I'm not sure where that was confirmed (so hard to keep up with where info is coming from at this point). If so, it still doesn't resolve where Peter and MJ must've broken up. It could be assumed that this is what happened with OMD #4 but instead of the Devil showing up, Peter and MJ just remember it as a break-up. Still not sure if Peter or MJ have retained any memory of their former relationship b/c even if they remembered things but as boy/girlfriend...that's a long relationship to have been in to just bounce back from one would think. Ending a marriage or ending a years-long relationship seems like it would have a similar emotive effect. So, this one is still a little murky. I'm leaning toward them not remembering b/c I would think Peter would be a little more bummed but maybe he's the type of guy who can bounce back from a really long relationship. If they remember and they did have a long relationship, how does their memory remember a break-up?

-organic webshooters are gone
this one's minor. The Other was when it happened and it doesn't seem to disrupt much other than that story and perhaps it's ramifications but I haven't read that one yet so I'm not sure what came out've that story and what went with the organic webshooters.

-memory wipe of Peter's unmasking
This one doesn't go as far back as the marriage but isn't as inconsequential as the organic webshooters being gone. Tony Stark had a very close relationship with Peter before the unmasking and OMD so that bears the most explaining...especially when you factor in Tony's defense of the SHRA and tracking unregistered superheroes of which Spider-Man is one still.

Some have speculated that because no one knows Peter is Spider-Man that Tony doesn't know yet Tony had significant experiences with Peter Parker not Spider-Man. For instance, when Peter became Tony's assistant and traveled with him to Washington to address the special committee for the SHRA. The senators of that committee did not know Peter was Spider-Man at the time but knew him instead as Peter Parker, Tony Stark's assistant. Tony would not remember any of this, it has been speculated, because Tony only knew Peter by way of his knowledge of Peter being Spider-Man--which was wiped out by Mephisto. And of course, the members of that congressional committee would forget that Peter was Spider-Man once they saw the TV broadcast of Peter's reveal. Also, did Jarvis/Tony still pay for Aunt May's hospitable bills?

But they, nor the transcripts of that committee meeting, would be erased because it was Peter Parker who was representing himself before Congress. This is confirmed by people like Robbie and JJJ and Betty knowing who Peter Parker is still even though they don't remember he is Spider-Man. Peter Parker did not cease to exist in all instances, just people's memory of Peter Parker being Spider-Man and perhaps, to explain the Tony Stark examples, those people who specifically had experiences with Peter only by way of Spider-Man.

The Iron Spidey suit is an interesting artifact of the old reality before Mephisto changed the 616 MU. Tony made the suit for Peter once he began working and living with Tony. And even though Tony can't remember Peter being in his life because of the nature of the mindwipe (explained above), Tony still remembers making the Iron Spider-Man suit and giving it to Spider-Man when Spider-Man was working with Tony and was registered. Of course, being registered means divulging your ID, which Peter did, but there are no records or memories of who Spider-Man is. So when Tony thinks of the origins of the Iron Spider-Man suit, he remembers that Spider-Man worked with him and was registered and revealed his ID and wore the suit but he won't be able to find any instance of Spider-Man being Peter Parker.

As we know, Tony being the individual who is tracking down unregistered superpeople cannot be comfortable with this situation. his experience with the Sentry has also shown Tony (and others) that this sort've mindwipe phenomena can occur. The problem finds it's tendrils reaching into the post-CW development of the Tony Stark character.

-Mephisto's enhanced abilities
this is less specific but the character of Mephisto thru OMD has exhibited an ability that Mephisto has never shown before. Mephisto has been shown to be powerful but he has also been shown to be defeatable. It has been interesting to observe the development of this character into a megapowerful character in the MU.

also, there is the matter of what MJ whispered and if MJ is Jackpot and what the tiny bit of Peter and MJ's soul that remembers will color their characterization as lingering factors from OMD.

converge241

01-18-2008, 06:50 PM

if youre any of these people who remember he unmasked but not what he looked like ESPECIALLY stark who "worked with him but doesnt remember it" and ESPECIALLY ALSO with the skrull stuff..how do you not look into this "hazy memory"?

MutoMikey

01-20-2008, 09:37 PM

Didn't they do this Johns' run on Flash a couple years back???

But here's an explanation of mine. It's an ENORMOUS long-shot, but almost understandable since we haven't seen any reprecussions in other books.

Now...follow me on this.

What if this whole this is orchestrated by Skrulls?

Stop laughing...

Really, what if the Spidey-comics we're reading are what Peter is SEEING in some Skrull stasis pod or something of that sort. And he's been replaced by a Skrull which explains his position in New Avengers and his still being in the black suit. I mean, come on, we know Mephisto is not capable of this sort of thing so maybe he was a skrull. And maybe Mary Jane was replaced at some point durring OMD and is a Skrull (kinda explains her whispering in mephisto's ear). So instead of Mephisto warping reality, they were just Skrulls and put him in some stasis pod or something, ASM is what he's seeing/dreaming, and the Peter running around in New Avengers is a skrull.

:eek:

Hmm? Too far fetched? But makes sense...