Men's Rights?

[stamen]

What if you were called into a domestic violence situation and it was the kind of thing that you look at and think, "Jeez, no body has clean hands here." What if you'd seen it before, but this is the first time that you ever thought there was enough blame to spread around about anywhere you look.

I tell myself there is absolutely NO situation in which I'd pin my wife to the wall. I could never see myself doing that, even if she came in and started bragging about giving everyone in the U.S. Navy some oral time. (See Judd Winick's Wedding Special for more information.)

But would I stick to my guns and take the high road in that situation? What if she did blow the U.S. Navy and then marched down and wagged a finger in my face in an attempt to provoke me? What if she took a swing at me? What if she was jacked up on crack and took a garden rake to my face? What if I just lost it, just once, and just for a moment?

What if I went to jail because all the witnesses saw was us scuffling in the parking lot? What if I was facing the prospect of having my kids taken away?

How are men's rights determined in domestic violence situations? Is there such a thing as recipricol violence in a domestic situation? If my wife were to take a swing at me, and I did a simple evasion move and pinned her to the ground until she calmed down, is that abuse? Aren't the cops supposed to ask me if I want to press charges too?

Once I'm in the tank, shouldn't my lawyer be discussing my options with me if I have no history of violence at all? Or would I be guilty until proven innocent?

My experience thus far has been, if you've got a wanker, you're screwed. My experience to this point has also been, if you got a wanker, you probably really are guilty. But how is anyone ever really able to tell what the heck is going on?

[Linkara]

It's an ongoing problem from both a Feminist perspective as well as a legal perspective. Women are viewed as incapable of being responsible for domestic abuse and common courtesy prohibits "hitting a girl."

On that same note, though, it should be noted that plenty of men have used the excuse of "she provoked me" to justify abusing wives.

So it's a constant ongoing problem for either side of the equation, which can only be evaluated on a case-by-case basis. If I may be so bold, what brought on this particular post?

[stamen]

It's an ongoing problem from both a Feminist perspective as well as a legal perspective. Women are viewed as incapable of being responsible for domestic abuse and common courtesy prohibits "hitting a girl."

On that same note, though, it should be noted that plenty of men have used the excuse of "she provoked me" to justify abusing wives.

So it's a constant ongoing problem for either side of the equation, which can only be evaluated on a case-by-case basis. If I may be so bold, what brought on this particular post?

I'm trying to find an "objective" justice behind the fog of the law, and I started second guessing my instincts. I wish I could say more, but it's inappropriate to even go this far. I was just curious if anyone had any experience with men's rights, because I've always been a "throw them under the jail" kind of guy. I'm looking around, I can't really find any equity at all in a situation where everyone has dirt on their hands.

[Matt Doc Martin]

You don't hit women. Ever.

[Linkara]

You don't hit women. Ever.

Even if they're trying to kill you or harm someone you care about?

[KPhoebe]

You don't hit women. Ever.

How about "you don't hit anyone who isn't physically assaulting anyone, ever"?

[Nick Soapdish]

I got asked this question (more or less) once for jury duty.

Do you have a problem with a man hitting a woman?

I don't have a problem with a man hitting a woman because she's a woman.

I have a problem with anybody hitting anybody for any reason other than possibly self-defense. I especially have a problem with hitting somebody less able to fight than you under those same conditions.

[rick]

You don't hit women. Ever.

Certainly under most every circumstance a man has no business hitting a woman, but there are exceptions.

[Cam63]

Self defense or protecting another is OK, especially if she's using a weapon.

Just do what you have to do if reasoning is out of the question.

[Sabrinaset]

Certainly under most every circumstance a man has no business hitting a woman, but there are exceptions.

Years ago, when my big brother still lived at home, he got into a huge argument with a girl he was dating, and this girl was a real bitch, always overacting about everything. She finally yelled at Erik, "What, you gunna hit me?" even though he was nowhere near doing it. He then said "No, *I* wouldn't hit you ..." and then waved me over.

[rick]

Years ago, when my big brother still lived at home, he got into a huge argument with a girl he was dating, and this girl was a real bitch, always overacting about everything. She finally yelled at Erik, "What, you gunna hit me?" even though he was nowhere near doing it. He then said "No, *I* wouldn't hit you ..." and then waved me over.


I've only ever hit one woman, but considering that she had just stabbed me in the leg with a letter opener, I suspect that I could be forgiven for over-reacting.

[KPhoebe]

I think that hitting someone who has just stabbed you is totally allowable, yes!

[Karen El]

You don't hit women. Ever.

Patronising much?

[Red Jack]

Anyone who hits anyone should expect to be hit back, regardless of the genders involved.

The simple solution is never to hit first.

[DaeJi]

"Rights" will always be a tricky issue, and someone's always going to get screwed. Interestingly enough though, there are men's rights groups out there, and a lot of them have a lot of female members.

[Christopher Cross Is God]

Anyone who hits anyone should expect to be hit back, regardless of the genders involved.

The simple solution is never to hit first.


Correct.

The problem with the old adage, "Never hit a woman", is some women try to use that to their advantage, where they seem to think it's OK for them to hit a guy out of anger or spite. It's rather ridiculous.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Removed....

[Gorthaur]

I once kicked this guys ass named Derrick.Shouldn't that go on a thread about animal rights?

[Spike-X]

Correct.

The problem with the old adage, "Never hit a woman", is some women try to use that to their advantage, where they seem to think it's OK for them to hit a guy out of anger or spite. It's rather ridiculous.

Either that, or they push and push and push, then when they guy finally snaps and loses his shit, he's automatically the asshole.

I've known a couple of women who've been the victims of domestic abuse. And while I in no way condone what happened, after having seen them at their worst, I can certainly understand how it got to that point.







That sounds like a particularly mealy-mouthed way of saying "they were asking for it", doesn't it? I really don't think that's what I mean. But maybe I'm just bullshitting myself.

Full disclosure time, I guess; I was once involved in a domestic abuse situation. Rick, and maybe a couple other more senior posters, will probably remember me posting about it on the Comm Board at the time. I didn't hit her (although she and her parents later claimed that I did), but I did get pretty rough with her. Not in self-defense, either. I couldn't take any more, and I couldn't get her to just shut up and leave me the fuck alone, and I snapped.

We both contributed to the situation getting to that point. But I, and I alone, am responsible for my own actions. What I did was wrong, and there is no excuse for it. But I'll be damned, part of me still feels to this day that if she'd just left me alone, if she hadn't argued so much, if she'd stopped wasting money on stuff we didn't need and couldn't afford, if she'd thought to maybe ask me before deciding to rearrange all my stuff, if she'd done this differently, if she'd done that differently, it wouldn't have happened.

And it's easy to say "You should have just walked away." Ever tried walking away from somebody who's literally following you from room to room?

[KPhoebe]

Correct.

The problem with the old adage, "Never hit a woman", is some women try to use that to their advantage, where they seem to think it's OK for them to hit a guy out of anger or spite. It's rather ridiculous.

From my perspective, the trouble with the old adage "Never hit a woman" is that it patronisingly denies the capacity of women to harm and thus their personhood.

[Spike-X]

True. I once had to take a picture of a neighbour's arm where his psycho bitch girlfriend had bitten him, leaving a bruise the size of a small child's hand.

The guy was a cop.

[saintsaucey]

I don't know, I agree with the don't hit a woman adage. Yes you should defend your self but there other ways of defending your self. Choking them out for instance. I assume that means depriving them of oxygen until they pass out correct?

[Michael P]

I don't know, I agree with the don't hit a woman adage. Yes you should defend your self but there other ways of defending your self. Choking them out for instance. I assume that means depriving them of oxygen until they pass out correct?
...

Tell me you're kidding.

[Solaris]

What if you were called into a domestic violence situation and it was the kind of thing that you look at and think, "Jeez, no body has clean hands here." What if you'd seen it before, but this is the first time that you ever thought there was enough blame to spread around about anywhere you look.

I tell myself there is absolutely NO situation in which I'd pin my wife to the wall. I could never see myself doing that, even if she came in and started bragging about giving everyone in the U.S. Navy some oral time. (See Judd Winick's Wedding Special for more information.)

But would I stick to my guns and take the high road in that situation? What if she did blow the U.S. Navy and then marched down and wagged a finger in my face in an attempt to provoke me? What if she took a swing at me? What if she was jacked up on crack and took a garden rake to my face? What if I just lost it, just once, and just for a moment?

What if I went to jail because all the witnesses saw was us scuffling in the parking lot? What if I was facing the prospect of having my kids taken away?

How are men's rights determined in domestic violence situations? Is there such a thing as recipricol violence in a domestic situation? If my wife were to take a swing at me, and I did a simple evasion move and pinned her to the ground until she calmed down, is that abuse? Aren't the cops supposed to ask me if I want to press charges too?

Once I'm in the tank, shouldn't my lawyer be discussing my options with me if I have no history of violence at all? Or would I be guilty until proven innocent?

My experience thus far has been, if you've got a wanker, you're screwed. My experience to this point has also been, if you got a wanker, you probably really are guilty. But how is anyone ever really able to tell what the heck is going on?

I don't know, stamen. But women shouldn't hit men, just as men shouldn't hit women. As far as the "evasion and pinning," law enforcement calls using a restraining movement. In the case of someone trying to hit you, IMO a restraining hold is allowable: you're preventing a fight, preventing injury, and simply holding the person until they calm down and/or the cops arrive to take over. There are specific types of restraining positions; if possible I suggest you study and even take a class in them. They're useful for more than just "raging violent wives." ;)

Of course, if you fear putting a woman in a restraining hold will get you in trouble, there's always the "run away" option: run from her, yelling as much as you can to attract attention, and asking people to call 911. They teach us women to run from assault---why not men?

You might check with your local police department, to see if they offer any classes on how to deal with this kind of thing, if it's happen(ed/ing) to you.

[sk716]

What if you were called into a domestic violence situation and it was the kind of thing that you look at and think, "Jeez, no body has clean hands here." What if you'd seen it before, but this is the first time that you ever thought there was enough blame to spread around about anywhere you look.

I tell myself there is absolutely NO situation in which I'd pin my wife to the wall. I could never see myself doing that, even if she came in and started bragging about giving everyone in the U.S. Navy some oral time. (See Judd Winick's Wedding Special for more information.)

But would I stick to my guns and take the high road in that situation? What if she did blow the U.S. Navy and then marched down and wagged a finger in my face in an attempt to provoke me? What if she took a swing at me? What if she was jacked up on crack and took a garden rake to my face? What if I just lost it, just once, and just for a moment?

What if I went to jail because all the witnesses saw was us scuffling in the parking lot? What if I was facing the prospect of having my kids taken away?

How are men's rights determined in domestic violence situations? Is there such a thing as recipricol violence in a domestic situation? If my wife were to take a swing at me, and I did a simple evasion move and pinned her to the ground until she calmed down, is that abuse? Aren't the cops supposed to ask me if I want to press charges too?

Once I'm in the tank, shouldn't my lawyer be discussing my options with me if I have no history of violence at all? Or would I be guilty until proven innocent?

My experience thus far has been, if you've got a wanker, you're screwed. My experience to this point has also been, if you got a wanker, you probably really are guilty. But how is anyone ever really able to tell what the heck is going on?

Restraining some one is not the same as hitting someone.

Even if you're talking about a physical altercation between two males, both parties are in trouble once the swinging starts.

Another one of the problems is, the few men that are abused by women, almost never report it for fear of appearing wimpy or less of a man. So there really isn't a legal precedent for when it's reasonable for a guy to defend himself from a female.

[Solaris]

I don't know, I agree with the don't hit a woman adage. Yes you should defend your self but there other ways of defending your self. Choking them out for instance. I assume that means depriving them of oxygen until they pass out correct?

That's a very good way TO KILL SOMEONE WHEN YOU DON'T INTEND TO.

Jeezus.

Read my post above to Stamen about restraining holds... and running. And don't EVER choke someone unless you are in danger, or someone else is in danger, and you're prepared to take a life to protect a life---because choking someone CAN KILL THEM, WHETHER YOU MEAN TO OR NOT.

[Reverend Smooth]

The simple solution is never to hit first.
It's interesting that you say that, because I recall you telling me that I wouldn't dare, say, insult you to your face, lest I suffer the consequences. Since your verbal responses leave me completely indifferent, what precisely would those consequences be if you are incapable of hitting first?

Incidentally, lest someone accuse me of taking advantage of men-- I think that striking or not striking people based on gender values is dumb. Self-defense from anyone is fine by me. Picking on vastly smaller people, on the other hand, is not cool-- but most women are not vastly smaller than their men.

And yes, I have been assaulted by a lot of men, some of them bigger than I, some of them bouncers, and yes, I beat their asses down. The little woman did, after all, work out and cycle for up to six hours a day, every day, more on weekends, even if she was cute and all of 5'6.

I have smacked men who used the 'I don't hit women' line. Generally in cases of the guy escalating a situation where physical violence was necessary to get out of it, physically blocking the exit, or challenging me physically and then refusing to back it up when I took them up on it. Sometimes it was a forceful slap to knock their heads sideways and disorient them so I could get past them, and sometimes it was a hard, direct punch when I was certain that they just had to go down so I'd be safe. Occasionally, for the same reasons, I have grabbed a man by his shoulders and thrown him sideways (THAT seems to get the most startled response, but I know how to use my center of gravity and mass, but in my experience men don't expect to be thrown by a woman whom they outweigh) and then moved past him.

Either they went down as bullies are wont to do, or they suddenly suspended their rhetoric and got violent. I can only assume that the 'I don't hit women' line guilt worked on their previous victims/partners, while I just consider it empty noise.

[stamen]

You might check with your local police department, to see if they offer any classes on how to deal with this kind of thing, if it's happen(ed/ing) to you.

Oh no, not me. I actually teach women's self-defense and some rape prevention stuff. Looking at getting RAD certified soon, just because that's what the local PD is looking for in our community. This is totally unrelated situation that I'm close too. I feel bad for everyone involved, everyone's guilty, yet one person is shouldering 100% of the ramifications.

[stamen]

Even if you're talking about a physical altercation between two males, both parties are in trouble once the swinging starts.

Another one of the problems is, the few men that are abused by women, almost never report it for fear of appearing wimpy or less of a man. So there really isn't a legal precedent for when it's reasonable for a guy to defend himself from a female.

Yeah, that's the sort of thing I'm asking about. And if the cops are called in, they arrive with both people wrestling around, they're going to take the man no matter what. If kids are involved, they probably wouldn't take both away, even if both were guilty. And even if the PD was thinking about taking both in, if kids were involved, the man probably would say anything to keep the mom home with them.

[Reverend Smooth]

Unfortunately, when the overwhelming majority of abusers are men, there are going to be a few women who take advantage of it.

However, if the overwhelming majority of abusers were not men, there wouldn't be this problem.

People, not just women, take advantage where they can. Then again, the woman who assaults a man may not be taking advantage of anything; she may think the 'men don't hit' line is bupkis. Or she may be an abuser herself. Or she may not be thinking at all.

Anyway, in my opinion, the solution is to reduce violence from men towards women until the balance is no longer so skewed that the immediate and almost invariably correct assumption is that the man is responsible.

[LewisH]

I think the only thing you are allowed to do is run away and call the cops regardless of the gender. I'm not particular possessive about my girlfriend. If she started bragging about her sexual exploits it would probably turn me on rather than piss me off.

[Winslow]

Anyway, in my opinion, the solution is to reduce violence from men towards women until the balance is no longer so skewed that the immediate and almost invariably correct assumption is that the man is responsible.

That's my take on the situation.

The scales are so tilted against men it seems pretty silly to claim men are getting unfair treatment by the legal system.

Edit: Wow, the above was awkwardly written. I meant women are so much more likely to be the victims in abusive situations, it makes total sense that men are viewed with suspicion in domestic assaults.

[Paradox]

stamen has found a HUGE windmill:

I'm trying to find an "objective" justice behind the fog of the law, and I started second guessing my instincts.

Whoa. Good luck with that. I find the concepts to be fairly mutually exclusive.

[Stressfactor]

The thing is, if you are doing a proper hold down -- and using one of the techniques that do not look like choking -- and YOU are remaining calm and rational about it, then the cops walking into a situation are going to see a calm guy, calmly holding a raging female at arm's length. I think they would be willing to see a little fairly.

I used to do Judo mixed with a smattering of Hapkido. There are a number of arm bars which can be used which effectively immobilize a person while keeping them at arm's length from you. These techniques do not harm the person and, what is more, since they clearly maintain the person's distance from you is insures that the Cops don't think you are attempting to harm the person.

And for the record, as a woman, its not so much 'guy beating up on girl' that I have a problem with, it's 'stronger person/more talented fighter beating up on weaker person/inexperienced fighter'. In my Judo heyday I, a 5'4" 120 lb girl, could flip a 6' 210 lb guy over my shoulder effortlessly -- but I had the training and technique. It would have made for a rather unfair fight if I were going up against a guy who had no training and no technique. It's just that a lot of women are either physically or emotionally cowed by the men is their lives. And some may have even been brought up that "A lady doesn't hit" and therefore they think there is something wrong with them if they try to fight back.

[Reverend Smooth]

And some may have even been brought up that "A lady doesn't hit" and therefore they think there is something wrong with them if they try to fight back.
I had, but I got tired of getting hit.

[stamen]

Whoa. Good luck with that. I find the concepts to be fairly mutually exclusive.

Yeah, I know what you mean. I think it was Swift who once wrote, "I have no need of justice. I have the law."

[Red Jack]

It's interesting that you say that, because I recall you telling me that I wouldn't dare, say, insult you to your face, lest I suffer the consequences. Since your verbal responses leave me completely indifferent, what precisely would those consequences be if you are incapable of hitting first?

Sad. We've been so enjoying not talking to each other all this time. At least I know I have. Why fix what ain't broke? And your paraphrase is, as usual, inaccurate. I never said you'd suffer anything. I implied you lacked courage beyond the 'net kind. Suffering was never mentioned. Nor were consequences.

[Charles RB]

It's interesting that you say that, because I recall you telling me that I wouldn't dare, say, insult you to your face, lest I suffer the consequences. Since your verbal responses leave me completely indifferent, what precisely would those consequences be if you are incapable of hitting first?

He has extremely bad breath? That'd be a pretty horrific consequence of talking to him face-to-face.

I think the only thing you are allowed to do is run away and call the cops regardless of the gender.

If someone attacks you in the UK, you're legally allowed to use "reasonable force" in response - quite what that is depends on the situation, but the basics would be you can't use lethal/severely damaging force unless you're/another is in mortal danger, and you can't chase after/fire on the attacker when they're running away.

I think in parts ot the US, the self-defence laws are more lenient.

[Reverend Smooth]

Unsurprised to see Red Jack backing down again after such bold words initially. While you have been documented to be exceedingly conciliatory and two-faced in your online and real life behavior, RJ, mine is verifiably the same.

Again, I would like to know what consequences I would endure, since you made it clear that there would be reprecussions, but now you say that you don't throw the first punch. Yet again an example of contradictory behavior, and a sign of dishonesty. Why do you offer advice to restrain yourself in one topic, and yet threaten violence in another?

Reply honestly this time, please. Thank you. :3

Well, CRB might be right. Do you have halitosis, Red Jack? Will your breath eat my face, or something?

[Red Jack]

Unsurprised to see Red Jack backing down again after such bold words initially. While you have been documented to be exceedingly conciliatory and two-faced in your online and real life behavior, RJ, mine is verifiably the same.

Again, I would like to know what consequences I would endure, since you made it clear that there would be reprecussions, but now you say that you don't throw the first punch. Yet again an example of contradictory behavior, and a sign of dishonesty. Why do you offer advice to restrain yourself in one topic, and yet threaten violence in another?

Reply honestly this time, please. Thank you. :3

Well, CRB might be right. Do you have halitosis, Red Jack? Will your breath eat my face, or something?

Quotes please.

Nobody threatened you, you pathetic little person.

[Reverend Smooth]

Every time you are directly quoted, you are caught lying and whining that it was out of context. You don't just to it to me, either, you've done it to Charles RB right offhand. And we've been right every time.

Honesty, please. You know that fronting doesn't work on me unless there's substance to back it up.

Is it that you would whip out your very small penis and try to slap me with it? That's not exactly a punch. Or would you hide behind a can of Axe?

[Corrina]

Hey, prizefighters, could you take it to PMs? I know you're both are frustrated with each other but you don't need an audience any more than YABS need to watch it.

[Red Jack]

Every time you are directly quoted, you are caught lying and whining that it was out of context. You don't just to it to me, either, you've done it to Charles RB right offhand. And we've been right every time.

Honesty, please. You know that fronting doesn't work on me unless there's substance to back it up.

Is it that you would whip out your very small penis and try to slap me with it? That's not exactly a punch. Or would you hide behind a can of Axe?

Quote. Quote. It's quite simple. Neither of you has ever done or said anything to cause me to "back down." You barely rate notice. Quote the threat or beat it.

[Charles RB]

Neither of you has ever done or said anything to cause me to "back down."

This is true, you never did apologise or "back down" for your pro-ethnic cleansing and sectarian violence comments when they were pointed out or linked to (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showpost.php?p=5368171&postcount=558).

Pity, because if you did that would mean you have morals and ethics.

[Red Jack]

This is true, you never did apologise or "back down" for your pro-ethnic cleansing and sectarian violence comments when they were pointed out or linked to (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showpost.php?p=5368171&postcount=558).

Pity, because if you did that would mean you have morals and ethics.


Interesting, I suppose, but not relevant to the current situation.

A related quote, please. Scoot. Go on. Dig dig.

Edit:

Actually, it is sort of related. Everyone who hits someone should expect to get hit back. Very good, Chucky. Thanks.

[Dark Galaxy]

I didn't hit her (although she and her parents later claimed that I did), but I did get pretty rough with her. Not in self-defense, either. I couldn't take any more, and I couldn't get her to just shut up and leave me the fuck alone, and I snapped...

...And it's easy to say "You should have just walked away." Ever tried walking away from somebody who's literally following you from room to room?


Hmmm. This is such a complicated issue.

Are there assholes, who just whomp on women for the hell of it? Yes.

Are there women who use society's expectations, to get away with beating the crap out of men? I'm sure there are.

Are there highly dysfunctional relationships that lends itself to a powder keg of tension just waiting to get pushed over that line to being physical? All the time.

I was in an extremely mentally and verbally abusive relationship. I was young. He was an asshole. He was manipulative. He told me I was nothing, for so long, I started to believe him. Over the relationship it only got physical on a few occasions. But, those occasions came about because I decided to call him on his bullshit. I demanded he be accountable for his actions. Did I get in his face? Yes. Did I follow him, and demand that he face me? Yes. And he made me pay for it.

Typically when dealing with arguments (between men and women) women want to verbalize, and men want to retreat. The more the man retreats, the more the woman wants to verbalize. The more the woman talks/screams etc, the more the man wants to retreat. When he can't, bad things can occur.

I am not saying that it is always like that. I am not saying it is even usually like that. I am just saying that I have seen it happen, and I have had it happen to me.

There are no excuses for being violent. I am just saying, that some circumstances can up the chances of it happening.

All that being said. The mental and verbal abuse I suffered over the course of years was way more damaging to me than any black eye or fat lip.

[Reverend Smooth]

Retreat means power. He can just keep retreating, and keep up with the behaviors, and he can keep doing as he does.

Refusing to engage means retaining the upper hand. That frequently drives the other party nuts.

[Matt Doc Martin]

Patronising much?

What? You want a piece?;)


Honestly, I guess I am speaking from my experiences.

1) My father beat all his women. I grew up seeing violence most of my life. It may be old fashioned and not "PC", but I believe in defending women and children. Sue me. As Solaris pointed out, there are other ways to deal with it.
2) I am 6'2" and 190. If I hit you, I would cause serious damage. I fear no man, but I will not fight a woman.

[Red Jack]

edit: held back pending further data

[Dreadstar]

2) I am 6'2" and 190. If I hit you, I would cause serious damage. I fear no man, but I will not fight a woman.

Not even if Tonya Harding was gunning for you?


http://graphics.boston.com/bonzai-fba/Globe_Photo/2005/01/27/1106845967_9907.jpg

[Red Jack]

Not even if Tonya Harding was gunning for you?


http://graphics.boston.com/bonzai-fba/Globe_Photo/2005/01/27/1106845967_9907.jpg

Um.

Damn.

[Dreadstar]

Um.

Damn.

And to think I used to think she had nice legs when she was skating.

[Reverend Smooth]

She should do no-carb, too.

[Dark Galaxy]

And to think I used to think she had nice legs when she was skating.

But now it looks like she has legs coming out of her shoulders.

[bfrank]

And it's easy to say "You should have just walked away." Ever tried walking away from somebody who's literally following you from room to room?

Yeah, I got in my car and left....

[bfrank]

I don't know, I agree with the don't hit a woman adage. Yes you should defend your self but there other ways of defending your self. Choking them out for instance. I assume that means depriving them of oxygen until they pass out correct?


Laugh. Out. Loud.

[bfrank]

.

Again, I would like to know what consequences I would endure, since you made it clear that there would be reprecussions, but now you say that you don't throw the first punch. Yet again an example of contradictory behavior, and a sign of dishonesty. Why do you offer advice to restrain yourself in one topic, and yet threaten violence in another?



How about some proof as to what he said.....

[Pink Bat Maxine]

You know what's sad?

We get a thread titled 'Men's Rights' and all it's about is hitting or.... *shudder*.... strangling a woman.

Is that the sum of concern people have for the 'rights' of men?

[TomStillwell]

I once kicked this guys ass named Derrick. He thought he could push me since I was a quiet type. In Gym I choked him out nearly , of course Derrick shaved his legs and was pretty much gay. Did I hate doing it since I knew Derrick's fighting would be slaps and not much ? Yeah I did...I did feel guilty but as pals told me later... he needed to be smacked a few times and nearly choked out.

Stereotype much?

[bfrank]

Stereotype much?


be nice, it's self hatred.....after all he is a wrestling fan:)

[Pink Bat Maxine]

Stereotype much?

Wow, I skimmed over that quote initially.

This guy is the reason God gave us the 10 Ton Fecal Bomb.

[Gozwald73]

Anyone who hits anyone should expect to be hit back, regardless of the genders involved.

The simple solution is never to hit first.

Genius (and I do mean that, no sarcasm intended). Put yourself in politics and you'll get my vote. Commonsensicality ftw! errmm.. is that even a word?

[TomStillwell]

Wow, I skimmed over that quote initially.

This guy is the reason God gave us the 10 Ton Fecal Bomb.

Yeah, I saw that post this morning on my cell phone and didn't comment then. I was sure someone else would catch it.

Aside from the homophobic slur, I'm also sickened by this whole "choke out" thing. I've been in more fights than I can count, some that were nearly do or die, and I've never tried to choke or been choked by anyone. That's psychotic, especially when it's rationalized as someone deserving it.

[Gozwald73]

Yeah, I saw that post this morning on my cell phone and didn't comment then. I was sure someone else would catch it.

Aside from the homophobic slur, I'm also sickened by this whole "choke out" thing. I've been in more fights than I can count, some that were nearly do or die, and I've never tried to choke or been choked by anyone. That's psychotic, especially when it's rationalized as someone deserving it.

Note also that part about his mates supporting his behaviour afterward. I'm sure Hitler's psycho generals condoned his genocidal decisions in similar fashion.

[Pink Bat Maxine]

Note also that part about his mates supporting his behaviour afterward. I'm sure Hitler's psycho generals condoned his genocidal decisions in similar fashion.

Wow, I'm having flashbacks to Jr. High recess and 'Smear the Queer'.

It was a pretty disappointing post, alrightie. Just remember.....

http://www.kersplebedeb.com/mystuff/qbb.jpg

(Even boy queers with...... girlfriends?)

[bfrank]

Note also that part about his mates supporting his behaviour afterward. I'm sure Hitler's psycho generals condoned his genocidal decisions in similar fashion.

Isn't this some law or rule? The comparing him to hitler, that is.....

[Charles RB]

It was a pretty disappointing post, alrightie. Just remember.....

http://www.kersplebedeb.com/mystuff/qbb.jpg

Quoth Have I Got News For You:

"I was in a public bog in London, and actually scrawled on the wall was *dumb voice* All Gays - Are Gay! Yeah, well done mate."

[Red Jack]

Yeah, I saw that post this morning on my cell phone and didn't comment then. I was sure someone else would catch it.

Aside from the homophobic slur, I'm also sickened by this whole "choke out" thing. I've been in more fights than I can count, some that were nearly do or die, and I've never tried to choke or been choked by anyone. That's psychotic, especially when it's rationalized as someone deserving it.

Seconded.

........

[Pink Bat Maxine]

Quoth Have I Got News For You:

"I was in a public bog in London, and actually scrawled on the wall was *dumb voice* All Gays - Are Gay! Yeah, well done mate."

My favorite Simpson quote is from the episode where Lisa is dating Nelson. Jimbo and Kearny come across them out in public, and Jimbo says, "You have a girlfriend? That is so gay!"

[Michael P]

My favorite Simpson quote is from the episode where Lisa is dating Nelson. Jimbo and Kearny come across them out in public, and Jimbo says, "You have a girlfriend? That is so gay!"

It's even funnier. The bully trio catches them kissing, and the line is "You kissed a girl? That's *so* gay!"

[Infra-Man]

But would I stick to my guns and take the high road in that situation? What if she did blow the U.S. Navy and then marched down and wagged a finger in my face in an attempt to provoke me?

If it's in the past, it's in the past. If someone brings it up and brags about it, if it bothers you, let the person know and talk things out. Yeah, it may be bothersome and may make you feel weird, but that doesn't justify hitting someone at all.

What if she took a swing at me?

Hmmm... don't have to swing back, but definitely could dodge it or take the shot and tell the person to cool it and ask them what the heck is going on. Seems like the best idea is to defuse the situation before it escalates rather than making it worse.

What if she was jacked up on crack and took a garden rake to my face?

See, if anyone is on crack and/or taking a rake to my face, I can totally see some retaliation being in order. If you're going to defend yourself from someone going nuts, decking that person in self-defense is just fine, though if you can incapacitate them in some other way (push the person away, do some aikido stuff) of flee to get some help, that seems preferable.

What if I just lost it, just once, and just for a moment?

What if I went to jail because all the witnesses saw was us scuffling in the parking lot? What if I was facing the prospect of having my kids taken away?


You're under duress, but is that any reason to hit someone or harm them physically? Yeah, it's serious and people do dramatic things in the heat of the moment, but surely you have to try to keep your head, especially if it's in a public place like that.

[stamen]

If it's in the past, it's in the past. If someone brings it up and brags about it, if it bothers you, let the person know and talk things out. Yeah, it may be bothersome and may make you feel weird, but that doesn't justify hitting someone at all.

I remember the only time I was attacked by a woman. My wife has punched me for fun sometimes, when I make a silly comment. She always gets her hand or wrist hurt.

But once this chick I was dating when ape-shizzle on me. We were at her mom and dad's house. I have no idea what we were arguing over, but she hauled off and slapped me full force in the face. I asked her if she felt better now, and she slapped me again, full force in the face. Then I told her that I could take it until her arm got tired and she slapped me again.

Her dad came out of the bedroom, and sent her to her room. He sat me down and said, "You know, I think you love her, cause if you didn't you would have laid her out on the floor. If things move along and you ever decide to marry my daughter, you have my blessing... and my prayers."

We both sort of chuckled. But you know, who's to say I didn't deserve a good slap? I have no idea what we were even fighting over.

[Infra-Man]

I remember the only time I was attacked by a woman. My wife has punched me for fun sometimes, when I make a silly comment. She always gets her hand or wrist hurt.

But once this chick I was dating when ape-shizzle on me. We were at her mom and dad's house. I have no idea what we were arguing over, but she hauled off and slapped me full force in the face. I asked her if she felt better now, and she slapped me again, full force in the face. Then I told her that I could take it until her arm got tired and she slapped me again.

Her dad came out of the bedroom, and sent her to her room. He sat me down and said, "You know, I think you love her, cause if you didn't you would have laid her out on the floor. If things move along and you ever decide to marry my daughter, you have my blessing... and my prayers."

We both sort of chuckled. But you know, who's to say I didn't deserve a good slap? I have no idea what we were even fighting over.

Whoa... that's wicked nuts. Her dad's spiel sounds so, I don't know, out of an old western or something. Seems like you did the right thing in the situation.

Three full-on slaps, yowza. You know, I've never been in a situation like that before, but I think I would have wound up saying something annoyed and yet self-deprecating to try and ease the tension rather than keeping a level head. If it wasn't a hard slap, I'd probably bust out Bruce Lee's line from Enter Dragon: "What was that? An exhibition? We need emotional content. Try again."

[Gorthaur]

Aside from the homophobic slur, I'm also sickened by this whole "choke out" thing. I've been in more fights than I can count, some that were nearly do or die, and I've never tried to choke or been choked by anyone. That's psychotic, especially when it's rationalized as someone deserving it.
In fairness, if you actually need to take someone out to get out of a dangerous situation (you know, as opposed to thinking someone "needs to be slapped"), then a blood choke is just about the most humane way of doing it. It's relatively painless, causes unconsciousness in a few seconds, and leaves no damage. Certainly, if the alternative is to punch someone, it's practically an act of love.

[neutronjockey]

From my perspective, the trouble with the old adage "Never hit a woman" is that it patronisingly denies the capacity of women to harm and thus their personhood.

The idea of women being the "fairer" or "weaker sex" is a social construct. While there are certainly dimorphic differences between men and women (not just talking about sexual dimorphism---and a lot can be said for what elevated testosterone does for men...), the ideas that our modern society has about women come from thousands of years of misogynistic viewpoints and "brainwashing" about what the abilities and capabilities of women are.

To teach your sons to "never strike a lady" is a lesson that adheres to these same misogynistic principles which "the Patriarchy" has had established for years...this specific attitude resonates from the Victorian era.

[Red Jack]

In fairness, if you actually need to take someone out to get out of a dangerous situation (you know, as opposed to thinking someone "needs to be slapped"), then a blood choke is just about the most humane way of doing it. It's relatively painless, causes unconsciousness in a few seconds, and leaves no damage. Certainly, if the alternative is to punch someone, it's practically an act of love.

Yeah. No. Unless you're in some kind of life or death situation, that sort of move is just over-the-top stupid. Even cops, who are trained (in theory) to "choke out" unruly suspects, can't guarantee they won't leave the person with severe neurological damage or even dead. Strangling someone into unconsciousness means cutting off their air and perhaps blood flow to their brain. Never a good plan unless you're saving your own life.

Even knocking someone out is not wise (and not easy) for similar reasons.

And, of course, in a real fight, the odds of you getting into a position to do that choking are remote. This sort of thing really only works in movies or when you massively outsize and overmatch your opponent. Then, of course, the question becomes WHY ARE YOU CHOKING SOMEONE SO MUCH SMALLER THAN YOU?

[Grimm]

People are a strange breed. I was at the train station one day a good few years ago. Just minding my own business, when i hear a commotion. I look around and this couple are having one hell of a slagging match.

Well it turns violent quickly. The guy is seriously beating the shit out of his girl, and I mean her face is swelling up already and blood is pouring down her nose. Enough of this, I think. I grab the guy by the scruff of his neck, pull his coat off his shoulders and around his arms as I headbutt him as hard as I can in the face. He goes down.

I start to turn around, with a half playful smile on my face, saying anything else I can do for you.. but before I could finish my sentence she had jumped on my back and was trying to claw my eyes out! It took two people to pull her off me.. I thought christ! pity she didn't put up that much of a fight against her fella!! I consider myself very fortunate to still have my sight I can tell you.

Staggering away, my face on fire and part of one of her nails sticking out my cheek I really thought, why did I bother? She was consoling the jerk off as he lay on the floor!

It seemed perfectly obvious to me, that she could have fought back against her guy and didn't. Some women are perfectly capable of fighting back, in my experience. They just would rather take their lickings than lose their relationship. I guess alot of abusive relationships are this way?

The punch line is, as I interupted a domestic dispute I am apparently out of order! According to a friend I would have been in trouble if they had pressed charges against me. Not sure how true that is, he was studying Law. Thing is he never seemed to be in lectures that much.. :p

So was I arrogant to think the girl needed protecting? I admit I did envisage myself as some kind of knight in shining armour, but hey what guy isn't a little cocky? Should I really have to just watch this crap unfold, is walking away the best option? I guess sticking the nut in right away was a bad decision, but I'm from Glasgow for gods sake, they teach us how to do that in nursery school ;) Sadly this isn't the only incident of this kind. I've had less graphic scenes when out with friends and another time with some neighbours (we could hear them through the walls) the result is always the same. Even when being diplomatic or just restraining or putting bodies in the way. Mind your f'in own business!!!!:mad:

I can honestly see why some people do just turn a blind eye to things in the world. I'll never get that cynical, I hope. Just sometimes, you never know just what the right/best thing to do is.

[Gorthaur]

Yeah. No. Unless you're in some kind of life or death situation, that sort of move is just over-the-top stupid. Even cops, who are trained (in theory) to "choke out" unruly suspects, can't guarantee they won't leave the person with severe neurological damage or even dead.I could swear I did say "if you need to take someone out." As in "the situation requires you to render someone incapable of resuming hostilities." I don't exactly recommend choking out random passers-by for shits and giggles.

Obviously, no martial arts technique is a hundred percent safe, but to suggest that a blood choke is more dangerous than punching someone (which can also be instantly lethal, if we're talking worst case scenarios), much less "psychotic," is just flat out wrong. Look it up on any martial arts source, if you don't believe me. Hell, even Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chokehold#Blood_choke) has it.

[Red Jack]

I could swear I did say "if you need to take someone out." As in "the situation requires you to render someone incapable of resuming hostilities." I don't exactly recommend choking out random passers-by for shits and giggles.

Obviously, no martial arts technique is a hundred percent safe, but to suggest that a blood choke is more dangerous than punching someone (which can also be instantly lethal, if we're talking worst case scenarios), much less "psychotic," is just flat out wrong. Look it up on any martial arts source, if you don't believe me. Hell, even Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chokehold#Blood_choke) has it.

Uh huh. Good ol' wiki.

Well. Like Tom, i've never ever seen anyone in a real fight use that technique. I've seen cops do it and I've seen some ultimate fighter guys do similar things but, as this conversation isn't about a brawl in the street or some kind of cage match but about violence between genders, I'm not sure I can envision a situation where the "choke out" would be warranted.

A solid shot to the solar plexus tends to sit most folks down.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

post below sums it up best....

[SUPERECWFAN1]

I also wanna apologize ..if I came across bad there. I was in Junior High at the time and yes being a heavy boy its not like I honest to god did a pure choke out. We had a small fight , I got on top used my wieght n arm...teacher broke it up.

If I angered any YABS posters with what I posted I apologize. I did not mean to anger anyone here. Looking at the post yeah...I am disgusted with what I posted there. Trust me ...I am ashamed. If I hurt anyone..I apologize...


Being the chubby quiet kid did get me picked on. And not to justify the fight since looking back I do feel some shitabout it ...I just snapped since I had been picked on a long while by him. And my slow rage had built .

If I upset anyone again...just PM me. I didn't realize at how I typed it..how bad it sounds...and I apologize for it.

[Christopher Cross Is God]

2) I am 6'2" and 190. If I hit you, I would cause serious damage.

Not to impede on your machismo, but 6'2" and 190 usually means you're tall & lanky.


I also wanna apologize ..if I came across bad there. I was in Junior High at the time and yes being a heavy boy its not like I honest to god did a pure choke out. We had a small fight , I got on top used my wieght n arm...teacher broke it up.

If I angered any YABS posters with what I posted I apologize. I did not mean to anger anyone here. Looking at the post yeah...I am disgusted with what I posted there. Trust me ...I am ashamed. If I hurt anyone..I apologize...

The only thing people would find offensive was your stereotyping of gays as being wimps who can only slap in a fight.

After seeing such stalwarts in the pro wrestling ring like Adrian Street, Terrence Garvin, Billy & Chuck, and "Adorable" Adrian Adonis, shouldn't you have known better than to type that out? :p

[SUPERECWFAN1]

The only thing people would find offensive was your stereotyping of gays as being wimps who can only slap in a fight.

I pretty much feel ashamed really. It was a horrid post....I accept full ability for being a jackass on it.:(

[SUPERECWFAN1]

After seeing such stalwarts in the pro wrestling ring like Adrian Street, Terrence Garvin, Billy & Chuck, and "Adorable" Adrian Adonis, shouldn't you have known better than to type that out? :p

Dude... my brains were in my ass there. Its all I can say. Or I'm a jackass again...

And to beat it all I loved Billy & Chuck's theme music and the storyline they ran with them doing a whole Ace & Gary act. Thats what makes it even worse.

[Gail Simone]

I believe you are remorseful, Super. Everyone posts something dumb once in a while.

Can everyone else pull back a bit from the rhetoric, please.

I worked at crisis centers as a volunteer and the hypothetical is very different from the reality, and people punching each other is just a shitty way to handle any situation other than protecting an innocent person, really.

I write comics with violence in them, but I try to show the consequences and in Wonder Woman in particular, how much more strength it takes to show compassion and mercy than anger and intolerance.

So I think if you follow Diana's lead, you're probably all right. ;)

Gail

[Mick]

If I or someone I care about is physically threatened I will take every necessary action within the law to defend myself or that person. That definitely includes hitting a woman.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

I believe you are remorseful, Super. Everyone posts something dumb once in a while.

Can everyone else pull back a bit from the rhetoric, please.

I worked at crisis centers as a volunteer and the hypothetical is very different from the reality, and people punching each other is just a shitty way to handle any situation other than protecting an innocent person, really.

I write comics with violence in them, but I try to show the consequences and in Wonder Woman in particular, how much more strength it takes to show compassion and mercy than anger and intolerance.

So I think if you follow Diana's lead, you're probably all right. ;)

Gail


Thank you Gail.


To be back on topic...I would never hit a woman. Even when hit a few times. Maybe its because I am such a momma's boy that I'd feel I'd let her down if I hit a woman.


edit to add.... I'm gonna be hitting the hay and I'll try to send more apologies later...

[KPhoebe]

The idea of women being the "fairer" or "weaker sex" is a social construct. While there are certainly dimorphic differences between men and women (not just talking about sexual dimorphism---and a lot can be said for what elevated testosterone does for men...), the ideas that our modern society has about women come from thousands of years of misogynistic viewpoints and "brainwashing" about what the abilities and capabilities of women are.

To teach your sons to "never strike a lady" is a lesson that adheres to these same misogynistic principles which "the Patriarchy" has had established for years...this specific attitude resonates from the Victorian era.

QFT.

I reckon it's far better to teach children - boys and girls - not to hit anyone outside fight training unless they or someone else is physically imperilled.

[stamen]

The punch line is, as I interupted a domestic dispute I am apparently out of order! According to a friend I would have been in trouble if they had pressed charges against me. Not sure how true that is, he was studying Law. Thing is he never seemed to be in lectures that much.. :p

The thing is, as a passer-by you never know what's really go on in a situation. In my situation this week, the guy got beat half to death by five guys a few minutes before marriage counseling. They were getting help, things weren't perfect, but it was in no way your classic "wife-beater" t-shirt scenario.

Best to use short, firm commands and a loud voice. If that doesn't work, separate them if you think you can do it without injuring yourself. Punching the guy in the face, is probably not the best course of action. At least for me.

[rick]

Not to impede on your machismo, but 6'2" and 190 usually means you're tall & lanky.



Funny, but that's exactly what I thought when I read that.

[Winslow]

[
I dunno, I haven't been in a fight since 8th grade . .and even that was a one punch to the face "fight" that was broken up by the gym teacher.

And it may seem sexist, but I was raised to NEVER hit a woman. I traded blows with brothers when I was young, but never my sisters.

Maybe I've lived a sheltered life, but it seems to me you can live violence free by making the right choices.

Not to impede on your machismo, but 6'2" and 190 usually means you're tall & lanky.

What does that make me at 6'4 and 190? :D

[Stressfactor]

I'm also sickened by this whole "choke out" thing. I've been in more fights than I can count, some that were nearly do or die, and I've never tried to choke or been choked by anyone. That's psychotic, especially when it's rationalized as someone deserving it.


Weeeelllll...... Once again, Judo student here.... Part of Judo technique are several ways of "choking someone out". Of course, we were trained proper method AND while it is theoretical to put someone all the way out we NEVER did it in class. You choked someone to the point where they submitted that was it -- and we only did that when we were working on the technique to make sure we were doing it right. It was basically understood that this was something you would only actually use in extreme duress and no one EVER used it in practice sparring.

I suppose I should note that my martial arts teacher was combat martial arts trained and he tought us combat technique -- not the more precision, "pretty" version of some MA's.

[Sally Sensational]

What does that make me at 6'4 and 190? :D

A beanpole.

Weighing in, here. I've never been hit. I've been held down, near choked, held up against walls, but never hit. Mostly because I refused to fight back. I learned that real quick.

Anyway, I think the whole thing is situational. In any argument, someone has to attempt to remain rational. If SHE has already hit you, then obviously, she's not the one remaining rational, so you should do your best to be that one. If SHE hasn't hit you, then there's no excuse for even considering physical violence.


Claiming that you can't control your temper is bullshit. The whole "seeing red" and physically assaulting someone simply because he or she has nagged you or made fun of you or bothered you is also bullshit. If you can't control your temper, even when the idiot harassing you appears to be out of control (i.e. your girlfriend is chasing you around the house screaming at you), then YOU have a problem and claiming "he/she asked for it" of "I just couldn't take any more" as a reason for hitting someone is just an immature excuse for a lack of self control.

[Lester C.]

I have never been in a fight. Mostly because I have a low tolerance to pain and am afraid to hit someone for fear of them hitting back. Thankfully my size, attitude and relative tall height gives off the impression I can kick your ass so no one has messed with me looking for a fight. Yet.

[Christopher Cross Is God]

Weeeelllll...... Once again, Judo student here.... Part of Judo technique are several ways of "choking someone out". Of course, we were trained proper method AND while it is theoretical to put someone all the way out we NEVER did it in class. You choked someone to the point where they submitted that was it -- and we only did that when we were working on the technique to make sure we were doing it right.

Plenty of people have been choked out completely in jiu-jitsu classes and such, it's not a big deal. It's bad if you keep the choke applied long after they're unconscious.......I'm sure you learned in judo that the chokes used with actual technique temporarily stop bloodflow to the brain, rather than blocking air passage.

The common misconception is most people think of chokes as what usually happens in an assault or TV/movies, with what some call a "rape choke", where a person has both hands against another's windpipe. Yeah, that's dangerous to apply as it could easily kill someone, although it would be stupid to use against someone who knows how to fight since it's easy to defend against.



It was basically understood that this was something you would only actually use in extreme duress and no one EVER used it in practice sparring.

I suppose I should note that my martial arts teacher was combat martial arts trained and he tought us combat technique -- not the more precision, "pretty" version of some MA's.

Since you were in judo, that probably means instead of simply training "sport judo" style, your instructor was into practical self-defense and probably taught a lot of newaza.

[Christopher Cross Is God]

A solid shot to the solar plexus tends to sit most folks down.

I had to do that to a girl once when I was 12 or 13, and I'll mention it since it's slightly related to the topic of this thread.

I was with a friend and these 3 girls kept trying to harass us for no apparent reason, and it escalated to them trying to physically assault us. I can't remember, exactly, but one of the girls was about to either scratch or punch my face, so I evaded her and just punched her in the chest. She fell to her butt and had a shocked look on her face, and as a result, all 3 girls left me alone.

What happened to my friend? He was one of those diehard "I will never hit a girl" types, so he was just standing there surrounded, trying to walk away, while getting clawed at & hit. The girl I hit got up and helped her two friends beat my friend up........During the process, I asked him why he wasn't hitting them back, because if he would they'll leave him alone, and he said, "I don't hit girls."

End result?

I came out untouched in a ridiculously infantile situation, whereas my friend had bruises & scratch marks all over his face.


Dude... my brains were in my ass there. Its all I can say. Or I'm a jackass again...

And to beat it all I loved Billy & Chuck's theme music and the storyline they ran with them doing a whole Ace & Gary act. Thats what makes it even worse.

Eh, not a big deal. You shouldn't beat yourself on the head over it.

I was joking about the pro wrestlers. After all, it's scripted, plus the only one I named who was really gay was probably Terrence Garvin, and in real-life he was in the closet. I didn't even know he was really gay until someone (I think bert) mentioned on this forum that Garvin did some interesting things during his pro wrestling career.

[Charles RB]

So was I arrogant to think the girl needed protecting? I admit I did envisage myself as some kind of knight in shining armour, but hey what guy isn't a little cocky? Should I really have to just watch this crap unfold, is walking away the best option?

You saw someone being physically assaulted and seemingly unable to defend themselves, so I wouldn't say you were arrogant - and no, you shouldn't just watch that stuff happen and walk away.

Exactly two weeks ago, I saw a bloke storm out of his car, pull another driver out and start assaulting him for no reason & without provokation (and he may have strike his own small child too). This is in broad daylight, in a high street in Surrey, right outside a supermarket. As I didn't have my mobile and have no upper-body strength, I immediately head into the supermarket to get the Security to help or get someone to call the police.

Nobody called the police. Nobody went out to help. The Security bod did nothing. And out of all the people shopping that day, there were only three witnesses around to give a statement when the police turned up and one of them was me, and this is despite the assault being incredibly visible.

An immediate headbutt may not be the most advisable (legally) thing to do but it's a lot better than being too apathetic to pick up a phone and press the number 9 three times.

punching someone (which can also be instantly lethal, if we're talking worst case scenarios)

There was a case last year where a guy defended himself by punching a drunk assailant and got investigated for potential murder because the assailant had fallen down & cracked his skull open on the pavement.

[Stressfactor]

Plenty of people have been choked out completely in jiu-jitsu classes and such, it's not a big deal. It's bad if you keep the choke applied long after they're unconscious.......I'm sure you learned in judo that the chokes used with actual technique temporarily stop bloodflow to the brain, rather than blocking air passage.

The common misconception is most people think of chokes as what usually happens in an assault or TV/movies, with what some call a "rape choke", where a person has both hands against another's windpipe. Yeah, that's dangerous to apply as it could easily kill someone, although it would be stupid to use against someone who knows how to fight since it's easy to defend against.





Since you were in judo, that probably means instead of simply training "sport judo" style, your instructor was into practical self-defense and probably taught a lot of newaza.

Yeah, they were the "stopping the bloodflow" types and while our instructor never used the term "newaza" what he taught was a lot of practical self-defense rather than forms and such. I've taught a few of the basics to female friends of mine because the things my instructor taught about how to break out of someone's grip were a lot better and more effective than any of the crap I was taught in college as "self-defense".

I suppose the thing is that for so long women were second class citizens. A man could cheat or beat to his heart's content and it was always a woman's fault. You husband stepping out on you? Then you must not be giving him what he needs at home. Your husband hitting you? Then you must be doing something to deserve it.

Now that the peduluum is swinging the other way it *can* swing too far in the other direction in a misguided attempt to compensate for the sins of the past.

[K'Nort]

There was a scene in the new Battlestar Galactica where a male and female character were having an argument and she slugs him and he punches right back and I don't know whether they meant to send any sort of message about the future and evolution of gender relations or whatever with it, but it made a strong impression on me. What kind of impression, I really can't say.

[Pink Bat Maxine]

It's even funnier. The bully trio catches them kissing, and the line is "You kissed a girl? That's *so* gay!"

Oh was that how it goes?

It's awesome.

[Infra-Man]

What does that make me at 6'4 and 190? :D

Wobbly during strong winds.

[Pink Bat Maxine]

Seriously, does anyone think there are any men's rights issues worth discussion that DOESN'T involve violence against their S/O?

[Sally Sensational]

Seriously, does anyone think there are any men's rights issues worth discussion that DOESN'T involve violence against their S/O?

Okay, here's one:

When my daughter was born, her father was given one (1) day paid leave. ONE. With all that needs to be done to adjust to having a new baby in the house, wouldn't it be nice if men could have a just a bit more time? I mean, women get 6 weeks or more of leave time. Men have to file for that emergency family leave if they want more than a day or two.

I would think that fathers being home during that initial bonding time would contribute more to them being attached to, and cooperative in parenting with, their children.

Not to mention that, in the case of a gay couple, one of those guys at least has got to stay home with that baby!

[Dreadstar]

Seriously, does anyone think there are any men's rights issues worth discussion that DOESN'T involve violence against their S/O?

Prostate exams?

[Red Jack]

the thing about a conversation about men's rights is that you have o ask yourself what rights don't we have.

Setting concerns of race and class aside, men have it pretty good rights-wise. So much so that even the most minor effort to balance things on that score elicits a wide chorus of whines from a large number of the fellas.

So what's left is discussion of the VERY few social constructs that, apparently, serve women. The "rule" against hitting them under any circumstances is one of those.

What else is there? Maternity leave? They're certainly losing their right to choose what to do with their bodies.

They don't get front line combat positions as far as I know. doesn't keep em from getting killed though.

Guys have beaten, even killed their spouses in the last couple years and gotten off scott free (and I'm not talking about OJ. that was an aberration on pretty much every front).

[DocAbsurd]

Wanna few issues to discuss? Cuz I've got a bunch.

When I walked in to file an Order of Protection on behalf of the Things, the first words I heard were: 'Oh, so you must be the abuser.' And that was from the Domestic Violence counselor, who then spent the next 2 hours apologizing profusely.

When I was trying to find shelter after we'd been evicted, I was told I couldn't get into any of the safe houses because I'm male, despite the fact that I was doing it for the Things and not myself.

One of the many many many times I called the Child Support Offices to find out what they were doing to enforce the divorce decree, I was told: 'Now you know what it feels like.'

I started making calls to find out what I could do to prevent the ex from suddenly packing up and taking the Things with her. The one conversation that set me on the path to filing for protection warned me that she had been 'red flagged' by Social Services a decade earlier (this would have been in the late 80s/early 90s). Now, despite the fact that we were married at the time and that I was trying to protect 2 young children from further harm, I was informed that the allegations would not be made public to me. And it wasn't made public to me during the divorce. And 5 years later I still have no clue, except for the fact that you're only 'red flagged' by Social Services for instances of domestic violence.

We are owed over $20,000 in back support. Even though I've been back to court to enforce the divorce decree at least a half dozen times in 2006 alone, I've been told that unless they know exactly where she is they won't even serve her with papers for incarceration (which, by the way, is the only recourse left open for me at this point).

We're starting our fifth year together this February 8th. When I inform people I'm a single father, I still get asked questions like 'How much do you pay for support?', or 'How often do you see your kids?' When I mention there was abuse, people back away; when I explain who actually committed the abuse, I'm often greeted with either disbelief or disdain. I still find it hard to admit that I was mentally abused for years because I'm often viewed as a wimp for not standing up to her in the first place.

I'm trying real hard to come up with one of my usual witty wrap-ups here, but for some odd reason humor seems to be escaping me.

[Reverend Smooth]

I'm so sorry, Doc.

[Michael P]

Wanna few issues to discuss? Cuz I've got a bunch.

When I walked in to file an Order of Protection on behalf of the Things, the first words I heard were: 'Oh, so you must be the abuser.' And that was from the Domestic Violence counselor, who then spent the next 2 hours apologizing profusely.

When I was trying to find shelter after we'd been evicted, I was told I couldn't get into any of the safe houses because I'm male, despite the fact that I was doing it for the Things and not myself.

One of the many many many times I called the Child Support Offices to find out what they were doing to enforce the divorce decree, I was told: 'Now you know what it feels like.'

I started making calls to find out what I could do to prevent the ex from suddenly packing up and taking the Things with her. The one conversation that set me on the path to filing for protection warned me that she had been 'red flagged' by Social Services a decade earlier (this would have been in the late 80s/early 90s). Now, despite the fact that we were married at the time and that I was trying to protect 2 young children from further harm, I was informed that the allegations would not be made public to me. And it wasn't made public to me during the divorce. And 5 years later I still have no clue, except for the fact that you're only 'red flagged' by Social Services for instances of domestic violence.

We are owed over $20,000 in back support. Even though I've been back to court to enforce the divorce decree at least a half dozen times in 2006 alone, I've been told that unless they know exactly where she is they won't even serve her with papers for incarceration (which, by the way, is the only recourse left open for me at this point).

We're starting our fifth year together this February 8th. When I inform people I'm a single father, I still get asked questions like 'How much do you pay for support?', or 'How often do you see your kids?' When I mention there was abuse, people back away; when I explain who actually committed the abuse, I'm often greeted with either disbelief or disdain. I still find it hard to admit that I was mentally abused for years because I'm often viewed as a wimp for not standing up to her in the first place.

I'm trying real hard to come up with one of my usual witty wrap-ups here, but for some odd reason humor seems to be escaping me.

That really, really sucks, Doc.

[Pink Bat Maxine]

This really illustrates how an injustice to one is truly an injustice to all. When men abuse and take advantage of women, women aren't the only people hurt by it. The same is true in reverse, and in any abusive/unjust situation.

Sorry to hear this, Doc. You and your kids deserve better. :(

[Dark Galaxy]

You know what's sad?

We get a thread titled 'Men's Rights' and all it's about is hitting or.... *shudder*.... strangling a woman.

Is that the sum of concern people have for the 'rights' of men?

Well, I think a lot of people were just referencing it, because the first post pertained to domestic violence.

[Corrina]

((((((((((((((((((((((Doc))))))))))))))))))))))))) )))))))

[Dreadstar]

Well, we could always go over that scab covering child custody inequities. Britney Spears and Doc Absurd tend against the trend, if not outright unusual.

[Red Jack]

Wanna few issues to discuss? Cuz I've got a bunch.

When I walked in to file an Order of Protection on behalf of the Things, the first words I heard were: 'Oh, so you must be the abuser.' And that was from the Domestic Violence counselor, who then spent the next 2 hours apologizing profusely.

When I was trying to find shelter after we'd been evicted, I was told I couldn't get into any of the safe houses because I'm male, despite the fact that I was doing it for the Things and not myself.

One of the many many many times I called the Child Support Offices to find out what they were doing to enforce the divorce decree, I was told: 'Now you know what it feels like.'

I started making calls to find out what I could do to prevent the ex from suddenly packing up and taking the Things with her. The one conversation that set me on the path to filing for protection warned me that she had been 'red flagged' by Social Services a decade earlier (this would have been in the late 80s/early 90s). Now, despite the fact that we were married at the time and that I was trying to protect 2 young children from further harm, I was informed that the allegations would not be made public to me. And it wasn't made public to me during the divorce. And 5 years later I still have no clue, except for the fact that you're only 'red flagged' by Social Services for instances of domestic violence.

We are owed over $20,000 in back support. Even though I've been back to court to enforce the divorce decree at least a half dozen times in 2006 alone, I've been told that unless they know exactly where she is they won't even serve her with papers for incarceration (which, by the way, is the only recourse left open for me at this point).

We're starting our fifth year together this February 8th. When I inform people I'm a single father, I still get asked questions like 'How much do you pay for support?', or 'How often do you see your kids?' When I mention there was abuse, people back away; when I explain who actually committed the abuse, I'm often greeted with either disbelief or disdain. I still find it hard to admit that I was mentally abused for years because I'm often viewed as a wimp for not standing up to her in the first place.

I'm trying real hard to come up with one of my usual witty wrap-ups here, but for some odd reason humor seems to be escaping me.

Jesus.

My parents worked that stuff out between them without courts but, according to that court, my Mom pretty much got everything and he got nothing even though the split was relatively amicable (i.e. no violence or cheating or neglect, they just fell Out).

That is BRUTAL.

I think that disparity is from the same place that says don't hit. Women are presumed weaker/more loving and men presumed the aggressor/more violent so, by definition, the woman is the better parent and the man is presumed threat until proved otherwise.

I've heard stories like that over the years. Do you think your case was typical?

[K'Nort]

My father had custody of us and people regularly assumed our mother must then be dead.

Only possible way he'd be raising us on his own.

And certainly no chance that a woman would abandon her children as well as her spouse.

[Spike-X]

As far as child access issues go, I'm certainly very lucky, and thankful that I get to see my kids as much as I do.

[DocAbsurd]

I've heard stories like that over the years. Do you think your case was typical?

Over the past 4 years, I've discovered it's a bit more usual than anyone's letting on. I've come across more and more fathers with primary or sole custody getting the royal shaft simply because of our gender.

Feck, I won't even bother going into the trouble I've had over the past 8 months with getting public assistance.

Here's a little fact I'm none too proud of:

I'm behind on my child support for my son in Florida. Because of employment (or rather lack thereof) over the years, I've let it lapse. And believe me, I'm doing my damnedest to make reparations and I've got quite a decent relationship with him (now that both exes can't stick their noses in).

Support Enforcement never had an issue in keeping track of me. Never had a problem serving me with papers or, as they're doing now, taking out more than half of my wages. If I fart, they know exactly what I had for dinner yesterday.

I've tried to get help with this situation, tried getting at least the interest stopped or having only the original amount deducted. I'm not trying to shirk my responsibility; feck, I take great solace knowing that this is gonna end up paying for his further education.

But because I'm considered a 'deadbeat dad' despite not missing a beat in 6 years, I'd be more likely to have my payments increased rather than evened out.

What's amazing is that they can't apply these same rules to this 'delinquent non-custodial parent' (apparently 'deadbeat mom' doesn't roll off the tongue quite as well). And it's my responsibility to track her down for them.

The ex hasn't had contact with the Things in 4 years. There's been no birthday cards, no Christmas cards, no attempt to get her supervised visitation started (which has lapsed at this point; she'd have to go back to court and start from the beginning, but this time the Things would have their say since they're both of age to have their input considered by the judge).

Guess it's too much of an imposition on her new lifestyle.

[bfrank]

Funny, but that's exactly what I thought when I read that.

Right....I'm 6'4" and 210, and they still call me skinny.....

[Red Jack]

Over the past 4 years, I've discovered it's a bit more usual than anyone's letting on. I've come across more and more fathers with primary or sole custody getting the royal shaft simply because of our gender.

Feck, I won't even bother going into the trouble I've had over the past 8 months with getting public assistance.

Here's a little fact I'm none too proud of:

I'm behind on my child support for my son in Florida. Because of employment (or rather lack thereof) over the years, I've let it lapse. And believe me, I'm doing my damnedest to make reparations and I've got quite a decent relationship with him (now that both exes can't stick their noses in).

Support Enforcement never had an issue in keeping track of me. Never had a problem serving me with papers or, as they're doing now, taking out more than half of my wages. If I fart, they know exactly what I had for dinner yesterday.

I've tried to get help with this situation, tried getting at least the interest stopped or having only the original amount deducted. I'm not trying to shirk my responsibility; feck, I take great solace knowing that this is gonna end up paying for his further education.

But because I'm considered a 'deadbeat dad' despite not missing a beat in 6 years, I'd be more likely to have my payments increased rather than evened out.

What's amazing is that they can't apply these same rules to this 'delinquent non-custodial parent' (apparently 'deadbeat mom' doesn't roll off the tongue quite as well). And it's my responsibility to track her down for them.

The ex hasn't had contact with the Things in 4 years. There's been no birthday cards, no Christmas cards, no attempt to get her supervised visitation started (which has lapsed at this point; she'd have to go back to court and start from the beginning, but this time the Things would have their say since they're both of age to have their input considered by the judge).

Guess it's too much of an imposition on her new lifestyle.

That's the problem with inequality. It screws everyone eventually.

And no flowers first.

[Spike-X]

One of the many many many times I called the Child Support Offices to find out what they were doing to enforce the divorce decree, I was told: 'Now you know what it feels like.'


Of course. Because you have a penis, you must be punished for the sins of all other penis-bearers, even though you've not sinned yourself.

It's completely logical, really.

[Dark Galaxy]

My father had custody of us and people regularly assumed our mother must then be dead.

Only possible way he'd be raising us on his own.

And certainly no chance that a woman would abandon her children as well as her spouse.

My best friend's fiancée has sole custody of his two kids (ages 6 and 9). Their mom is clinically a schizophrenic, and refuses to take her meds about half the time. She took off for nearly a year and they never heard from her. She came back, and now gets supervised visits. However, those visits can be supervised by a member of her church (and doesn't have to be a social worker) which I find a bit fishy. Especially, if she is clinically mentally ill. A social worker would have the training and skills to handle situations if things went south. Just having a member of the church supervise seems like they are giving the mom way too much benefit of the doubt. Granted, I don't know the details of how this person/people are chosen to supervise, but it still didn't sit right with me.

[Dreadstar]

Too be fair, even though I like to rag on my ex, Beelzebitch, she's nowhere in the league of Doc's or Ray R's exes. In fact, I thank my stars that she's a fantastic mother. I could have done a LOT worse.

[stamen]

Doc, that has to be so frustrating. That's similar to the situation that I'm in the middle of, except there is enough blame probably to be spread around anywhere, with the kids stuck in the middle. My frustration has been trying to protect the rights of the male, which seemingly just get tossed to the side. The law, the family, the community has been so quick to support the female... that's great and it makes me happy, but the poor guy is sort of left hanging out to dry. Even getting an attorney to explain the situation in clear terms has been a challenge. It feels like the guy has zero rights at all in the issue.

[DocAbsurd]

I was lucky. My attorney was only too happy to take my case, and she took it pro bono. She fought -- if you could call it that -- not just for me but for the Things. At our first interview with her, she met with all 3 of us and she knew the relationship we have from that brief time. The CPS agent knew within the first couple of minutes of talking with the Things. Judge Bailey in Family Court was a bit harsher at first; I honestly thought I had lost before I even walked out of the building.

But the ex kinda sealed her own fate, bragging to the judge how she was gonna be able to afford her own attorney. And then postponing the second hearing because she hadn't paid the retainer fee.

It went downhill from there.

I had never been worried about my rights. When I went in fighting, it was for the safety of the Things. What pisses me off so much right now is that while I still have the same attitude, the system seems to be under the impression that I'm just hoping for a hand-out for myself. If we just got the support we're due, we wouldn't be in the situation we're in now.

[KPhoebe]

[
I dunno, I haven't been in a fight since 8th grade . .and even that was a one punch to the face "fight" that was broken up by the gym teacher.

And it may seem sexist, but I was raised to NEVER hit a woman. I traded blows with brothers when I was young, but never my sisters.

Maybe I've lived a sheltered life, but it seems to me you can live violence free by making the right choices.


Yeeees, I would say that is pretty sheltered. Not all those choices are yours.

[Ryan Day]

There was a scene in the new Battlestar Galactica where a male and female character were having an argument and she slugs him and he punches right back and I don't know whether they meant to send any sort of message about the future and evolution of gender relations or whatever with it, but it made a strong impression on me. What kind of impression, I really can't say.

I think the point of that - if it's the scene I'm thinking of - is that they were both soldiers, both strong and trained and perfectly capable of defending themselves. (In fact, I don't think there was a "point" at all - it was pretty matter-of-fact)

There's a similar scene in an episode of Angel where Buffy hits Angel and he hits her right back. And though it's certainly shocking, it shouldn't be - you wouldn't have that reaction if two male characters hit each other in the same fashion. There's no power imbalance at all, and if there is one it favours the female character.

Of course, most male-female relationships don't have that dynamic - the average man is probably going to be bigger and stronger than the average woman.

And, as in many places in life, Scott Pilgrim has important things to say about this issue (http://www.newsarama.com/Oni/FREESP/FCBDFSP.html).

[Red Jack]

I think the point of that - if it's the scene I'm thinking of - is that they were both soldiers, both strong and trained and perfectly capable of defending themselves.

There's a similar scene in an episode of Angel where Buffy hits Angel and he hits her right back. And though it's certainly shocking, it shouldn't be - you wouldn't have that reaction if two male characters hit each other in the same fashion. There's no power imbalance at all, and if there is one it favours the female character.

Of course, most male-female relationships don't have that dynamic - the average man is probably going to be bigger and stronger than the average woman.

And, as in many places in life, Scott Pilgrim has important things to say about this issue (http://www.newsarama.com/Oni/FREESP/FCBDFSP.html).

Wisdom. Truth.

Humor.

[Pink Bat Maxine]

There was a scene in the new Battlestar Galactica where a male and female character were having an argument and she slugs him and he punches right back and I don't know whether they meant to send any sort of message about the future and evolution of gender relations or whatever with it, but it made a strong impression on me. What kind of impression, I really can't say.

No, no, BG is set in the PAST!

Just wait until you see the revamped Galactica 1980 series....

[Night Swordsman]

No, no, BG is set in the PAST!

Just wait until you see the revamped Galactica 1980 series....

Kewl,with the flying motorcycles?

Fly,my lil bat,FLY! :)

[beetlebum]

I wish I had more to say, but Godspeed Doc. It's totally unfair that good people like you must, like Simon of Cyrene, bear the cross for others and get crucified on it as well. Hopefully you'll be rewarded for this someday. Cheers mate. :)

[Cam63]

You have my deepest condolences, Doc.

[Gorthaur]

Uh huh. Good ol' wiki.Good ol' wiki happens to concur with the opinions of seasoned martial artists and self-defense teachers. However, you are certainly free to believe what you want on the grounds of what you've seen on tv; it's only tangentially related to this thread, at any rate.

[Red Jack]

Good ol' wiki happens to concur with the opinions of seasoned martial artists and self-defense teachers. However, you are certainly free to believe what you want on the grounds of what you've seen on tv; it's only tangentially related to this thread, at any rate.

I'm not trying to argue with you. My experience comes from real life, not TV. I've never seen anyone successfully use the move you're talking about in real world conditions. None of the fights I've been in or witnessed involved the sort of grappling required. And, martial arts or not, there is simply no way using a move that stops blood to the brain is safe enough to be a go-to option.

You could induce a stroke, brain damage, embolism and a stack of things I'm sure I don't know about. Then it's not just a fight, it's manslaughter or aggravated assault.

Since it was only introduced into this discussion as a means of shutting down domestic violence and since that violence is disproportionally male on female and since females, on the whole, tend not to be experiened fighters, it's kind of an ugly move to even be discussing. The phrase "choke them out" just makes me sick.

Granted I haven't been in a real full on fight in about a decade now so maybe the dance has changed a bit. But I doubt it.

As I said, I've seen cops do it and sometimes they get results they don't expect. People die from that move. Generally that's not a place most folks want to go but, sure, if you like it, go for it. Good luck.

[Charles RB]

Good ol' wiki happens to concur with the opinions of seasoned martial artists and self-defense teachers.

Well, I'm sure such people have never used those moves in real life and would know what they're talking about when it comes to self-defense & martial arts.