Sarah Connor Chronicles Swipe Manga / Anime?

[The Xenos]

I posted this in the Lying in the Gutters forum, but I realize it's also relevant here.

I saw ads and posters for the new show Terminator The Sarah Connor Chronicles. They reminded me of some cyberpunk manga and anime I like, Alita and Ghost in the Shell. I blogged about it.

http://www.comics2film.com/b/index.php?blog=11&p=547&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1

More directly, skipping over my rants and suggestions, here are the images in question.

This other blog which is all about swipes compares more exact images.
http://youthoughtwewouldntnotice.com/blog3/?p=746

Though then I also thought this promo poster reminded me of an Alita image.

I just found another.. conincidence. This time with Alita.

Here's a promo image from Fox for Sarah
http://www.terminatorsite.com/season1gallery19.htm


Just saw it again and it reminded me of some artwork from Alita. Looking for it online, as I'm over a friend's house on his computer, and I only found this image from the Brazilian release.
http://img98.imageshack.us/my.php?image=capagunnm18g5b15d740287gx4.jpg

Too much of a streach? A standard pose for cyborgs? I dunno. I just was reminded it. Maybe it's by some Alita fan lamenting there's no Alita film yet so they might as well apply the art to Terminator.

[Darth Joker]

There's a definite similiarity between Battle Angel Alita and that Fox promo image. Still, the promo image makes me think of the movie "I, Robot" a bit more than it makes me think of BAA, so I'm inclined to think it's mainly a case of a standard pose for cyborgs.

[Kevin M.]

Yeah, they look like, but that could just be just due to coincidence.



..

[ChrisIII]

Wasn't there that Fox series starring Jessica Alba that was basically the same thing a while back?

[Adam C]

There's a definite similarity between that one poster at the link and the Ghost in the Shell panel, but there's not that much similarity between the other poster and the Battle Angel Alita cover to really suggest a swipe. The differences in head position, expression, way the components are exposed, and layouts are so different that it doesn't suggest much more than coincidence to me.

[Neal R]

Wasn't there that Fox series starring Jessica Alba that was basically the same thing a while back?

That series was "Dark Angel" (which James Cameron co created) and though I can't recall an image like that from the show, a lot of this is cut from the same cloth. (Cybernetically enhanced, genetically enhanced--more than human, etc.)

I agree with Darth Joker. It's a pretty standard image style that goes back at least to Issac Asimov if not further.

[Inkthinker]

What you're probably recognizing is the influence that certain anime/manga artists have had on contemporary effects artists. I wouldn't be surprised at all to learn that the people behind these new Terminator images grew up reading Shirow... it's likely less of a "let's swipe this idea" and more of a "I've been wanting to do something like this for years" line of thought going on there.

[Armless Penguin]

Nah, this is really a stretch. Some of those pics aren't really similar at all, and the ones that are could be taken from any cyborg or robot piece of media ever made.

For instance:

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/153/502101~I-Robot-Posters.jpg

is just as similar to

http://www.terminatorsite.com/poster1.jpg

as this is

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/4845/capagunnm18g5b15d740287gx4.th.jpg (http://img98.imageshack.us/my.php?image=capagunnm18g5b15d740287gx4.jpg)

In fact, I'd argue it's even more so with the presence of all the exposed robotics.

[MKTerra]

Yeah, I think that's kind of a stretch.

So, what are these Sarah Connor Chronicles about? I only heard about it last week or so.

[Enigmanaut]

Personally, the Torso picture reminds me more of the Borg Queen.

[Neal R]

Yeah, I think that's kind of a stretch.

So, what are these Sarah Connor Chronicles about? I only heard about it last week or so.

If you haven't seen the film series, a mother and son are on the run from a defense system that declares war on the human race in the future. John Connor will lead the human resistance in this future. His mother, Sarah, protects him. It's supposed to take place after Terminator 2. Another cyborg has been sent back to bodyguard this mother and son. And together they try to unravel why this is happening.

If you haven't seen it, it airs monday nights at 9PM on FOX.

[SpydaWeb]

Yeah, I'm with the coincidence conclusion as well. I think the fact that the themes are so alike is probably the reason you're seeing the similarities.

I saw the pilot for Sarah Connor during SDCC. Not really interested in the take they're going with. I think there was the potential to have a great in-canon storyline, but they chose to go down the Smallville (let's make up our own canon that isn't improving on the source) route.

[Black Atom]

Neither Ghost in the Shell nor Battle Angel Alita invented cyberpunk. If you're going to accuse someone from swiping from those sources, then you have to accuse them from swiping from guys like Giger and Sorayama, just to name a few, off the top of my head, who were popularizing images of cyborg women and mechanical wombs years before. Is it possible someone who worked on the promo poster already had an established interest in cyberpunk/robots/sci-fi and had seen those images before and was either consciously or subconsciously influenced by them? Possible and very likely. Doesn't make it swiping at all.

The accusation of "swiping"--deliberately stealing someone else's artwork or ideas and passing them off as your own-- is a pretty serious one and is used way too lightly these days.

[The Xenos]

There's a definite similiarity between Battle Angel Alita and that Fox promo image. Still, the promo image makes me think of the movie "I, Robot" a bit more than it makes me think of BAA, so I'm inclined to think it's mainly a case of a standard pose for cyborgs.

Sigh.. the movie "I, Robot". The movie written as a generic derivative sci fi film, then tailored to the rights they got for the name I, Robot. Also written by the guy that did Batman and Robin. Sigh.

What you're probably recognizing is the influence that certain anime/manga artists have had on contemporary effects artists. I wouldn't be surprised at all to learn that the people behind these new Terminator images grew up reading Shirow... it's likely less of a "let's swipe this idea" and more of a "I've been wanting to do something like this for years" line of thought going on there.

Yeah. "I've been wanting to do something like this for years" sounds quite possible. If they're working on Terminator, I'm guessing they're likley fans of others. There's that gray area between swipes and obscure homages.

Personally, the Torso picture reminds me more of the Borg Queen.
Sarah Connor Chronicles , 2008.
Star Trek: First Contact, 1996.
Ghost in the Shell movie, 1995.
Ghost in the Shell manga, 1991.

Though the dangling is more like the Borg Queen. Though the Queen didn't have.. um.. bewbs.

[Armless Penguin]

Sarah Connor Chronicles , 2008.
Star Trek: First Contact, 1996.
Ghost in the Shell movie, 1995.
Ghost in the Shell manga, 1991.


Yes, and the first few pages of BATTLE ANGEL ALITA (also published in 1991) feature an armless, legless, pure torso and head Alita as well. Does that mean that it swiped from GitS or vice versa? Hell, they were published around the same time! No, it's simply a fairly common pose or formation used in cyberpunk media that features cyborgs or robots that's used to highlight how alien they are from us.

[The Xenos]

Actually, someone caught Alita blatantly swiping The Hand ninjas from Miller's Elektra lives again.

Swipe of the Week 15-Mar-1999: Yukito Kishiro vs Frank Miller (http://blog.adlo.es/2007/08/swipe_of_the_week_15mar1999_yukito_kishiro_vs_fran k_miller.html)
Swipe of the Week 22-Feb-1999: Yukito Kishiro vs Frank Miller (http://blog.adlo.es/2007/08/swipe_of_the_week_22feb1999_yukito_kishiro_vs_fran k_miller.html)

Though personally I think it's hilarious to see Alita fighting The Hand.

[Inkthinker]

Actually, someone caught Alita blatantly swiping The Hand ninjas from Miller's Elektra lives again.

Swipe of the Week 15-Mar-1999: Yukito Kishiro vs Frank Miller (http://blog.adlo.es/2007/08/swipe_of_the_week_15mar1999_yukito_kishiro_vs_fran k_miller.html)
Swipe of the Week 22-Feb-1999: Yukito Kishiro vs Frank Miller (http://blog.adlo.es/2007/08/swipe_of_the_week_22feb1999_yukito_kishiro_vs_fran k_miller.html)

Though personally I think it's hilarious to see Alita fighting The Hand.

Huh! Never saw that... and it's from very late in the series, when Kishiro had already proven that he was a more than capable illustrator. Given that he was already well-read, one wonders if that's not more of an easter egg than a swipe. But then again, homage is always the first defense...

'Course, Kishiro is a well-known fan of Miller, so there'd be supporting evidence for suggesting that he did it on purpose with the intent for it to be noticed. For crying out loud, the entire Ashen Victor mini-series was basically Kishiro's love letter to Miller's chiaroscuro style from Sin City.

[The Xenos]

Yeah, it almost seems a little too blatant to be just an actual swipe of quesitonable morality. If anything it's more of a homage, as he does seem to be a Miller geek. Also, agian, Alita vs The Hand is awesome.

[Inkthinker]

Yes, and the first few pages of BATTLE ANGEL ALITA (also published in 1991) feature an armless, legless, pure torso and head Alita as well. Does that mean that it swiped from GitS or vice versa? Hell, they were published around the same time! No, it's simply a fairly common pose or formation used in cyberpunk media that features cyborgs or robots that's used to highlight how alien they are from us.

If you want to really get art-crit-geeky, one could point out that what each artist might be doing is reaching a similar result by seeking to provoke in the viewer a sense of attraction (using the semi-nude female form) with a simultaneous sense of revulsion (stripping the flesh away to reveal the mechanical guts and skeleton beneath). There may also be an intent to invoke a bit of pity (given that each is presented in a sort of "helpless" position, hanging half-formed but aware) and a bit of mechafetishim (ooh, gears and hoses and hardpoints, oh my!). By hitting the viewer from multiple positions, the imagery becomes effective and memorable, not only influencing other artists but also serving as an effective nexus of design elements.

If, y'know, you wanted to infer that much meaning into it.

[The Xenos]

a bit of mechafetishim (ooh, gears and hoses and hardpoints, oh my!).

Ha! Yeah. I think half of Japan's otaku markets are built on mechafetishim.

There's that whole Mecha Musume trend, where mechafetishim and the moe fetishism trend meet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mecha_Musume
http://www.konami.jp/th/menu/index_mecha.html
http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/9671/s3agqj4.th.jpg (http://img401.imageshack.us/my.php?image=s3agqj4.jpg)

Not that my friends and I have collections of these figures... and magazines... um.. nevermind.