Mutant League 01/16/2008 AM Game 5: TShark82 & The Lucky One vs. Flâneur & Toboe

[mattbib]

Greeting fight fans! Welcome to the first fight of the day!

Please review the rules on voting here (http://www.geocities.com/mattbib/mutantleague2008rules.html).

And now on to our fight...

In the first corner we have TShark82 & The Lucky One's The Clash At Demonhead:
Karma, Rogue (Exiles), Mary Zero, Mysterio III, Decibel, Riptide, Sabra

vs

In the other corner is Flâneur & Toboe's Brides of Wakanda:
Meggan (3), Northstar, Hellion, M, Nocturne

Both participants have submitted strategies:

Please do not post or vote until both strategies have been posted and read.

[mattbib]

Strategic analysis: The Brides of Wakanda have plenty of power and speed, but their most powerful character, Meggan, has an empathic nature that makes her sensitive to telepathic control, and Northstar was recently brainwashed as well. That, combined with their fewer numbers, is the key to defeating them.

Phase 1: immediate, pretty much simultaneous

Northstar will probably launch himself at our team, most likely Karma. But Jean-Paul doesn’t live his entire life in super-speed the way Quicksilver did… he has to consciously shift into “fast mode.” That reaction will only take a fraction of a second, but during that period Decibel has time for a reaction of his own, immediately erecting a hard sound bubble around the Clash at Demonhead.
Just in case, with three times normal human reaction speed, Sabra jumps in front of Karma to protect her.
Northstar will either slam into the sonic bubble (possibly breaking it), try to use an explosive thermal energy attack (which the bubble and/or Sabra should block), or try to blind everyone with a flash of light. But the first two options will force him to slow down… and now that he’s in range, Mysterio grabs him with his mind control powers, making him land. (If it’s a blinding flash, Mysterio’s helmet will protect his eyes, still allowing him to exert the mind control.) Rogue immediately kisses Northstar for 5-10 seconds, stealing his speed and knocking him out. If Northstar for any reason doesn’t attack, Mysterio simply teleports him to our side and mind controls him into remaining still while Rogue kisses him.
If Meggan doesn’t immediately start flying, Karma grabs control of Nocturne and forces her to dive inside Meggan, making it Karma possessing Nocturne possessing Meggan. If Meggan DOES lift into the air, Karma targets her directly. Either way, even if M tries blocking it with her telepathy, Meggan’s very vulnerable to control and Karma is the strongest possession psi in the world… she’ll win before long. If M tries a direct telepathic attack on Karma, Karma’s psi-shields will block it, and M won’t have time to concentrate on it for long before…
Phase 2:

Riptide and Mysterio take Sabra’s place in front of Karma, guarding her… if any attacks come her way, Riptide’ll whisk her out of the way while Mysterio masks their movement with smoke bombs and teleports foes inside buildings in the X-Men’s ghost town, slowing them down. The only exception is if somehow Karma has been taken out already, Mysterio instead uses his own mind control powers on Meggan in Karma’s place.
If the hard sound bubble is still up, Decibel drops it, and super-speed Rogue, Sabra, and Decibel fly toward Hellion and M. Rogue concentrates on M… since this is Exiles Rogue, whose powers include super-strength enough to stun Iron Man, she hits M with a flurry of blows at Northstar speed, too fast for M to fight back, until she’s knocked unconscious.
Meanwhile, Decibel and Sabra double-team Hellion. He’s powerful but inexperienced, and Sabra is class 50, strong enough to break through Justice’s teke shields back when she fought he, Firestar, and Speedball to a standstill. She’ll keep hammering away at Hellion’s shields while Decibel nails him with sonic screams to break his concentration, and he’ll fall before long.
If Karma possessed Nocturne and THEN Meggan, she uses Meggan’s elemental powers to help Rogue fight M, buffeting M with gale-force winds and enhanced strength. If Karma possessed Meggan directly, she attacks Nocturne, creating earthquakes to keep her off-balance (helped by T.J.’s unreliable stroke leg) and hitting her with energy blasts from a distance.
Phase 3:


Everyone should be taken care of by now, with Meggan (and maybe Nocturne) possessed by Karma, Northstar’s powers stolen by Rogue, and everyone else beaten. If any Brides of Wakanda haven’t been taken out yet, Mysterio teleports to that side of the playing field and mind controls them, making them repeatedly hit themselves in the face until unconscious; unless it’s M, in which case he teleports a chunk of rock directly into her head.
If ALL else fails, Mary Zero has hung back- as long as M and Meggan are taken out, there’s no one on the other team who could conceivably sense her presence. If Northstar, Hellion, or Nocturne somehow take out everyone else, Mary waits until they land, walks up and hits them in the head with one of the many rocks littering the Outback until they’re knocked out.
With the match over, the Clash at Demonhead wake up the Brides and take them to that Outback bar the X-Men used to frequent. Northstar and Karma discuss the X-Men’s prejudice against gays while everyone else gets rip-roaring drunk. Mary Zero contents herself with stealing drinks from other people’s tables.

[mattbib]

NOTE: Unless otherwise specified, all moves within a section begin simultaneously.

SECTION 1:

1.1 NORTHSTAR - In the name of justice, gay pride and spicy cajun buns I shall punish you!

"Her body responds to her within a hundredth of a second. But to the the twins, at their current power levels -- that's a window as wide as the world." [X-men #190, Carey, 2007]

Northstar flies toward Xian at close to his top speed, which is considerably faster than any person's reaction time so he gets to her before an eye can even blink. Using the knowledge gained from the Hand he renders her unconscious with a punch to one of the many weak places in the human body.

This should also create a brief vacuum around around Xian so if Rogue is trying to absorb her she'll be blown away.

1.2 MEGGAN

Meggan does the next three actions simultaneously:

Release an electro-magnetic pulses. As stated by Night Thrasher [New Warriors Volume 4 #07]; most of the current New Warriors devices are forgotten hand me down inventions from the Avengers Mansion and most Stark gear has proven very susceptible to EMPs. It then stands to reason that Decibel's powers have just been neutralised.
Using her adapting nature, Meggan becomes black so as to be a superior life form and challenge x-ploitation in modern society. Also, being black, her skin contains a great deal more melanin so as to be more resistant to the cancerous effects of the harsh Australian sun. Additionally, as shown in early issues of Excalibur [Excalibur Volume 1 #08] being black gives her superior aim.
Lastly, she becomes infinitely more alluring to asian lesbians, which gives her the edge should Karma regain consciousness somehow.
She flies into the air.1.3 NOCTURNE - Stroke Girl Rules!

Nocturne fulfills her inner lesbian; penetrating and dominating M's mind and body with the sum of her indomitable stroke girl will.

1.4 M - For Wakanda!

M, predictably, gets possessed and let's out a slight moan as she is dominated by Nocturne.

1.4 - Hellion - I <3 X-23. Bestiality 4evar!

Our very young but surprisingly sexy telekinetic Hellion ERECTS (haw haw, hai gurlz) a TIGHT force field around Riptide, PINNING HIM TO THE GROUND and thus preventing him from spinning and blocking Riptide's shurikens and his horrid pink perm (what WAS he thinking?!). This shield will also prevent Rogue using Riptide's powers. At the same time Hellion levitates.

NOTE: the above section should have taken maybe a couple of seconds, less in Northstar's case.

SECTION 2:

2.1 Northstar

Once our sexy Quebecois finishes with Xian, he shifts his focus onto Mysterio, assaulting him with his super speed martial arts until we have a knock out or at least something close to it. Northstar, given his speeds, should be able to neutralise Mysterio before he can teleport out. The vacuum around Mysterio will throw Rogue around if she's trying to drain him.

2. 2 M/Nocturne

Our lovely scissor sisters fly toward Sabra, with the intent of engaging her in battle.

NOTES:

Despite us being completely incapable of confronting Mary Zero, all the team members are air borne, so she is utterly unable to effect us.
The above should take less than a moment.SECTION 3:

3.1 Meggan

Our adorable Wakandan Queen decides to show our mostly ground based enemy what she's made of and releases a series of powerful earthquake; temporarily disrupting the axis of motion that Riptide is using to spin (should he somehow have become unshielded), making the powerless Decibel fall over and disrupting the ground based Rogue. Mary Zero, should incidentally be falling all over the place, not that we'd know of course.

3.2 M/Nocturne

At this point in time M/Nocturne will have engaged Sabra which should prevent Sabra from healing any of her comrades.

3.3 Hellion

Our resident twink Hellion will at this point of time blast Rogue with his powerful teke, which should keep her down for the count, given she has no natural invulerabiity. If she has managed to absorb from Sabra, then he'll blast her at as close to full capacity as possible.

3.4 Northstar

Northstar does one of the following:

A) If Riptide is managed to send out some Shurikens before he was neutralised, Northstar becomes a super fast garbage collector and grabs all of the shurikens that were thrown and throws them in non-lethal attacks on others if they look like they're at risk or;
B) If Mysterio awakens, then he shall pick him up and fly at near top speed with him, damaging his body and equipment as well as creating something of a vacuum so Mary Zero may be caught in the vacuum and thrown about or;
C) If Rogue is still mobile he will speed toward the blasted Rogue and flash her [HAW HAW ], which should neutralise her completely or;
D) If none of the above apply, he'll make sure Decibel is knocked unconscious.

NOTE:

As mentioned in other sections, this section shouldn't take more than a couple of moments.
The status of our enemy should be as follows: Karma; incapacitated, Riptide; neutralised, Decibel; neutralised, Mary Zero; neutralised (incidentally), Mysterio; incapacitated/neutralised, Sabra; engaged, Rogue; neutralisedSection 4:

4.1 Nocturne/M

Our lovely scissor sisters should be gaining the upper hand here as M's natural flying ability gives her greater maneuverability and her invulnerability prevents Sabra's paralytic quills from penetrating her skin. Additionally Nocturne is the most skilled fighter in this pairing as she was the most skilled fighter in her weight class on a world of gladiator trained superhumans [Exiles Volume 2 #8]. Given their mutual invulnerability this fight should take a while but should Sabra at any time seem to be gaining the upper hand M/Nocturne will use M's telepathy and hurt her by making her revisit memories of her dead son as well as physically with fists, kicks and hex bolts.

Section 5:

5.1 Nocturne/M/Hellion

Once Sabra is down for the count, M/Nocturne flies over to where Riptide is pinned. M gets into position to hold him down and once she's securely in place Hellion drops the shield and M/Nocturne has Riptide pinned. Nocturne then makes a body jump into Riptide without knocking out M and right after jumps out of Riptide, knocking him out for 24 hours [Exiles Volume 2 #3]. M then picks up Nocturne and flies into the air.

Section 6:

6.1 Hellion

Hellion levitates all of the unconscious opponents into the air, in a bubble, if any of them should awaken then they're locked into the bubble.

6.2 Meggan

Meggan focuses the utter totality of her elemental powers so as to create a localised Big Wet - a time in the Australian outback where floods run through usually arid areas and erode much of the land, this is typically a point in time where desert amphibians breed, certain wallabies, geese etc. This is also a period of renewal for the land, so Meggan is merely catalysing a recurring and necessary natural phenomena . The flood should hit should hit all of the weakened ground units, neutralising them if they weren't already.

Meggan also sings the Circle of Life, as homage to her Wakandan pride.

Section 7:

Considering our fighters are probably wet, despite being airborne, they decide to have a celebratory orgy in the sky. This causes Meggan to have incredible multiple orgasms due to her empathy, incidentally increasing the Big Wet. ;)

FIN.

[Flâneur]

Phase 1: immediate, pretty much simultaneous
[LIST]
Northstar will probably launch himself at our team, most likely Karma. But Jean-Paul doesn’t live his entire life in super-speed the way Quicksilver did… he has to consciously shift into “fast mode.” That reaction will only take a fraction of a second, but during that period Decibel has time for a reaction of his own, immediately erecting a hard sound bubble around the Clash at Demonhead.
1. As mentioned in our strategy, Decibel's sound equipment is neutralised by Meggan's EMP thus negating the wall.
Just in case, with three times normal human reaction speed, Sabra jumps in front of Karma to protect her.
2. As we quoted from X-men, Northstar's speeds are incredible, to the point that Sabra may as well be moving at a snail's pace or slower compared to him. She can't block Northstar. Additionally,Northstar moves toward Karma, doesn't mean he moves in a straight line so he can just go around any block attempt.
and now that he’s in range, Mysterio grabs him with his mind control powers, making him land. (If it’s a blinding flash, Mysterio’s helmet will protect his eyes, still allowing him to exert the mind control.) Rogue immediately kisses Northstar for 5-10 seconds, stealing his speed and knocking him out. If Northstar for any reason doesn’t attack, Mysterio simply teleports him to our side and mind controls him into remaining still while Rogue kisses him.
Again, as quoted, once he activates, Northstar's speed pwns any reaction times e.g the White Queen's and your move with Mysterio requires Northstar to already be in superspeed mode so as to get near you. So Mysterio is removed by Northstar's attack. You also don't have him teleport so he's right where he needs to be to get taken down by Northstar.
If Meggan doesn’t immediately start flying, Karma grabs control of Nocturne and forces her to dive inside Meggan, making it Karma possessing Nocturne possessing Meggan. If Meggan DOES lift into the air, Karma targets her directly.
Karma is out, Sabra and Decibel won't have protected her so she cannot possess Meggan.

[pryde15]

From the quote provided by Flâneur & Toboe at the beginning of phase 1 of their strategy. I would say Northstar takes out Karma long before Decibel, Mysterio, or Sabra can do anything about it.

With Karma out of the picture, that leaves a hole in The Lucky One's strategy, since a big part of his plan was to have Karma control Meggan and/or Nocturne. and I would see neither happening now.

Right now I am giving the advantage to Flâneur & Toboe, but I will be waiting before I vote.

[lockerogue]

Flan strat is very good and entertaining. Aside from that I do like the idea of Meggan creating a Big Wet and having Northstar take out Karma.

[Shyft]

1. As mentioned in our strategy, Decibel's sound equipment is neutralised by Meggan's EMP thus negating the wall.


2. As we quoted from X-men, Northstar's speeds are incredible, to the point that Sabra may as well be moving at a snail's pace or slower compared to him. She can't block Northstar. Additionally,Northstar moves toward Karma, doesn't mean he moves in a straight line so he can just go around any block attempt.

Again, as quoted, once he activates, Northstar's speed pwns any reaction times e.g the White Queen's and your move with Mysterio requires Northstar to already be in superspeed mode so as to get near you. So Mysterio is removed by Northstar's attack. You also don't have him teleport so he's right where he needs to be to get taken down by Northstar.



Unfortunately for your tactic, Decibel is one of the few new Warriors who actually HAS powers. He was re-powered by Apocalypse some time ago. So the tactic to shortcircuit him is null and void, causing Northstar to crash into the sound shield, and giving Mysterio plenty of time to possess him. This major over-sight,means Northstar is open to being mind controlled/stunned by the sound wall and attacked by Rogue, and Karma is totally safe, free to possess your team. With Rogue using Northstars Powers, Northstar out of the fight, and Karma taking up both Nocture AND Meggan. i'd say most of your tactics fall apart without Northstar as your speed-power house and Meggan and Nocture doing their thing.

[Swashbuckler]

The Clash at Demonhead:

You're battle starts intelligently by guessing the speedster opponenet would attack first, and you deal with him in multiple ways. You stumble shortly after though. Karma suddenly takes possesion of Nocturne? A) Nocturne can also posses people, so wouldn't she have natural defenses about being posessed herself? B) Has she ever been posessed? C) You also claim Karma is the strongest posessor in the world, but where is this info coming from? Surely Shadow King is stronger then her since he did take control of her for a while. You then have Nocturne posessing Meggan, but this seems very flimsy. You're stretchin Karma's control of people and making too many bridges, esspecially when one bridge is against another posessor nd the other is against Meggan, whose mind is unstable as hell. On top of all this, you mention Nocturne's stroke, and with Karma's lesbianiam, the stroke and posessions I thought I was reading a Claremont story. That's bad. Very bad.

Hellion seems to be beaten too easily, esspecially considering he just got a power boost and you also have Rogue using her absorbtion powers, although, technically, have we seen that she has this abilit in Exiles? I know she's covered from head to toe, but she's never absorbed anyone from Exiles. M is also treated as mediocre by not being able to withstand Karma's psychic powers and getting nailed with a rock to the head by Mysterio ( a truely cheap blow).

My main concern is most of your battle being won by Karma's posession of Nocturne, and then the posession of Meggan, who has a rapport with the earth that I think would help keep her in control. Not just anyone can control those forces.

Brides of Wakanda

First off, you get props for using Meggan very well. The EMP is genious and turning black is a cute reference that shows you know the character, and that issue rocked. My first problem is that you ignore half of the opponents right from the start. You leave Sabra, Mysterio and Mary Zero free to roam for at least a few seconds, giving them time to act.

You do, however, take care of the remaining characters quickly afterwards. My main question is, why have M be posessed by Nocturne? To limit the opponenets targets? To avoid Nocturne's stroke malfunctions? why?

[Nyssane]

I don't think Northstar would be able to grab Riptide's shurikens. Even at super speed, grabbing them with your hands would cut them up pretty badly. But I'm still reading...

[pryde15]

Unfortunately for your tactic, Decibel is one of the few new Warriors who actually HAS powers. He was re-powered by Apocalypse some time ago. So the tactic to shortcircuit him is null and void, causing Northstar to crash into the sound shield, and giving Mysterio plenty of time to possess him. This major over-sight,means Northstar is open to being mind controlled/stunned by the sound wall and attacked by Rogue, and Karma is totally safe, free to possess your team. With Rogue using Northstars Powers, Northstar out of the fight, and Karma taking up both Nocture AND Meggan. i'd say most of your tactics fall apart without Northstar as your speed-power house and Meggan and Nocture doing their thing.

I would say since Northstar current levels are higher than before, that he would be able to get to Karma before the sound shield is up. but I would also say by the time he gets in and hits Karma, the shield would be up, so I doubt he would be able to get out of there, leaving him open to being attacked by Rogue.

One thing I noticed is, that it was stated that Karma has psychic shielding that could stop Monet. Never have I heard of Xi'an's shielding, so I would think if M had done that, she would have prevailed.

[Shyft]

The Clash at Demonhead:

You're battle starts intelligently by guessing the speedster opponenet would attack first, and you deal with him in multiple ways. You stumble shortly after though. Karma suddenly takes possesion of Nocturne? A) Nocturne can also posses people, so wouldn't she have natural defenses about being posessed herself? B) Has she ever been posessed? C) You also claim Karma is the strongest posessor in the world, but where is this info coming from? Surely Shadow King is stronger then her since he did take control of her for a while. You then have Nocturne posessing Meggan, but this seems very flimsy. You're stretchin Karma's control of people and making too many bridges, esspecially when one bridge is against another posessor nd the other is against Meggan, whose mind is unstable as hell. On top of all this, you mention Nocturne's stroke, and with Karma's lesbianiam, the stroke and posessions I thought I was reading a Claremont story. That's bad. Very bad.

Hellion seems to be beaten too easily, esspecially considering he just got a power boost and you also have Rogue using her absorbtion powers, although, technically, have we seen that she has this abilit in Exiles? I know she's covered from head to toe, but she's never absorbed anyone from Exiles. M is also treated as mediocre by not being able to withstand Karma's psychic powers and getting nailed with a rock to the head by Mysterio ( a truely cheap blow).

My main concern is most of your battle being won by Karma's posession of Nocturne, and then the posession of Meggan, who has a rapport with the earth that I think would help keep her in control. Not just anyone can control those forces.

Brides of Wakanda

First off, you get props for using Meggan very well. The EMP is genious and turning black is a cute reference that shows you know the character, and that issue rocked. My first problem is that you ignore half of the opponents right from the start. You leave Sabra, Mysterio and Mary Zero free to roam for at least a few seconds, giving them time to act.

You do, however, take care of the remaining characters quickly afterwards. My main question is, why have M be posessed by Nocturne? To limit the opponenets targets? To avoid Nocturne's stroke malfunctions? why?

You criticize for the karma possess Nocture Possess Meggan part; Tshark/Lucky clearly give the possibility of Karma JUST possessing Meggan, and i think their reasoning for her being easy to possess is good. Just because Meggan has a link to the earth doesnt mean she is beyond possession; you yourself state she is mentally unstable.

You praise the Meggan using the EMP tactic, but it wouldn't work. Decibel's powers are natural, provided by Apocalypse sometime after Jono was depowered. And even if Northstar DOES get past Decibels attack, Mysterio is right there, ready to manipulate his mind. Northstar is NOT fast enough to get across the distance between the two teams, knock out Decibel AND Karma AND Mysterio before Mysterio OR Decibel hits him with something.

[Brian M.]

Gotta love another reaction time debate. We really should establish a ruling on that becuase so many opening moves come down to wondering if Player A can do Move A before Player B does Move B to block Move A.

I also wonder can Nocturne be taken over by Karma? I thought for some reason that blue lesbian was immune that kinda attack?

[Pach!]

I don't think Northstar would be able to grab Riptide's shurikens. Even at super speed, grabbing them with your hands would cut them up pretty badly. But I'm still reading...

I don't agree if Northstar is that fast than the shurikens in comparison are incredibly slow and should be able to be grabbed without harm.

[Shyft]

I would say since Northstar current levels are higher than before, that he would be able to get to Karma before the sound shield is up. but I would also say by the time he gets in and hits Karma, the shield would be up, so I doubt he would be able to get out of there, leaving him open to being attacked by Rogue.

One thing I noticed is, that it was stated that Karma has psychic shielding that could stop Monet. Never have I heard of Xi'an's shielding, so I would think if M had done that, she would have prevailed.

Even if Northstar did get close to Decibel, Mysterio is standing by to mind-control him.

And although it isnt the best resource, Wikipedia DOES list Karma as having developed psi shielding.

[Pach!]

You criticize for the karma possess Nocture Possess Meggan part; Tshark/Lucky clearly give the possibility of Karma JUST possessing Meggan, and i think their reasoning for her being easy to possess is good. Just because Meggan has a link to the earth doesnt mean she is beyond possession; you yourself state she is mentally unstable.

You praise the Meggan using the EMP tactic, but it wouldn't work. Decibel's powers are natural, provided by Apocalypse sometime after Jono was depowered. And even if Northstar DOES get past Decibels attack, Mysterio is right there, ready to manipulate his mind. Northstar is NOT fast enough to get across the distance between the two teams, knock out Decibel AND Karma AND Mysterio before Mysterio OR Decibel hits him with something.

Decibels power are not given by Apocalypse, the machinery he uses is shown in the latest issue of New Warriors.

[Nyssane]

I don't agree if Northstar is that fast than the shurikens in comparison are incredibly slow and should be able to be grabbed without harm.

Yes, but shurikens look like this:

http://files.turbosquid.com/Preview/Content_on_5_15_2004_12_49_30/shurikens_08.jpg6dfc6ce0-f84e-4123-a456-00da3ab09684Large.jpg

He'd have to grab them so carefully that I don't think he'd have time to catch them all at the speed Riptide throws them (which is also superhuman speed, don't forget).

[Brian M.]

Yes, but shurikens look like this:

http://files.turbosquid.com/Preview/Content_on_5_15_2004_12_49_30/shurikens_08.jpg6dfc6ce0-f84e-4123-a456-00da3ab09684Large.jpg

He'd have to grab them so carefully that I don't think he'd have time to catch them all at the speed Riptide throws them (which is also superhuman speed, don't forget).

Nyssane's right, I don't see that happening. He'd have to carefully grab them at the center and the amount and speed at which Riptide does...I dont' see it either.

[pryde15]

Even if Northstar did get close to Decibel, Mysterio is standing by to mind-control him.

And although it isnt the best resource, Wikipedia DOES list Karma as having developed psi shielding.

but Northstar's first move was for Karma, who I would think he would be able to attack, but I think after he has attacked Karma, he really can't do much else, with: Sabra, Mysterio, Decibel, and Rogue standing there to attack.

and yes I just read that on wikipedia, and I guess I will go with it for now, but I am going to research that a little bit.

[Swashbuckler]

You criticize for the karma possess Nocture Possess Meggan part; Tshark/Lucky clearly give the possibility of Karma JUST possessing Meggan, and i think their reasoning for her being easy to possess is good. Just because Meggan has a link to the earth doesnt mean she is beyond possession; you yourself state she is mentally unstable.

You praise the Meggan using the EMP tactic, but it wouldn't work. Decibel's powers are natural, provided by Apocalypse sometime after Jono was depowered. And even if Northstar DOES get past Decibels attack, Mysterio is right there, ready to manipulate his mind. Northstar is NOT fast enough to get across the distance between the two teams, knock out Decibel AND Karma AND Mysterio before Mysterio OR Decibel hits him with something.

Well in that case, Wikipedia also says Jono's powers are from his tech and not Apocalypse. In the last issue of New Warriors Jono even talks about why he picked the equipment he did. He is using the equipment to make the powers. He may have other abilities granted by Apocalypse, but the sound constructs are from his tech.

[pryde15]

uncannyxmen.net spotlight on Karma does say...

also can generate a psionic deflector shield that disrupts incoming psi-signatures, protecting her from all manner of psychic assault

so I am going to say she does have psi-shielding.

and I can't see Northstar being able to grab Riptide's shurikens

[chemicalx]

Nyssane's right, I don't see that happening. He'd have to carefully grab them at the center and the amount and speed at which Riptide does...I dont' see it either.

i come down on the other side of this because if northstar has received speed upgrades and has inhanced perceptions to go with his super speed he should be able to grab the blades from the center because from his perspective they could be just as well standing still or at the very least moving really slowly. I guess it just depends on how fast NS is he could also find something to either bat the blades away or block them but those ideas weren't presented so i will leave that out...

I also dont believe Decibels powers are natural but i believe someone already expressed that

[Swashbuckler]

Alright, I'll agree to Karma's shielding. I'll agree to Northstar not being able to pick up the shurikens. But I still think the EMP would take out Decibel. He has a whole conversation about picking his new power to be a creator and not a destroyer.

[Shyft]

Well in that case, Wikipedia also says Jono's powers are from his tech and not Apocalypse. In the last issue of New Warriors Jono even talks about why he picked the equipment he did. He is using the equipment to make the powers. He may have other abilities granted by Apocalypse, but the sound constructs are from his tech.

ah, fair enough. i wasnt aware of that development, i just assumed that Decibel's sound power's were his natural ones. Still, even if the shield ability may not have worked, i doubt Decibel would just stop fighting. he would still participate with his natural powers to take out Northstar, i think. But that is just my opinion, with the sound manipulation powers part of the tech, i guess it is up to personal preferance as to what Decibel would do afterwards.

[pryde15]

I think Jean-Paul is successful in taking out Karma, but I think Decibel, Mysterio, Sabra, and Rogue present more than enough power to be able to take him down. I sitll need to talk to Lex before I vote.

[Nyssane]

i come down on the other side of this because if northstar has received speed upgrades and has inhanced perceptions to go with his super speed he should be able to grab the blades from the center because from his perspective they could be just as well standing still or at the very least moving really slowly. I guess it just depends on how fast NS is he could also find something to either bat the blades away or block them but those ideas weren't presented so i will leave that out...

I think it moreso depends on how fast Riptide is. He can spin his body at superhuman speed, I just don't see Northstar THAT much faster than him to the point where he can grab each of them one by one slowly.

I love that there's Quicksilver vs. Northstar in this battle, though. :D

[Swashbuckler]

OK, question. When Northstar picks up the shurikens are they in mid-air? I mean, if Hellion hold Riptide under a TK shield, the shurikens will just fall to the ground. I thought Northstar was just picking them up off the ground after Riptide was out.

[pryde15]

OK, question. When Northstar picks up the shurikens are they in mid-air? I mean, if Hellion hold Riptide under a TK shield, the shurikens will just fall to the ground. I thought Northstar was just picking them up off the ground after Riptide was out.

the way I read it, Riptide attacked the team, and Northstar grabbed them all before they could get close enough to harm the rest of his teammates.

[Shyft]

OK, question. When Northstar picks up the shurikens are they in mid-air? I mean, if Hellion hold Riptide under a TK shield, the shurikens will just fall to the ground. I thought Northstar was just picking them up off the ground after Riptide was out.

i thought it was sort of an "IF Riptide DOES manage to get any shurikens off BEFORE Hellion pins him, THEN Northstar will pick them out of the air". But i may be wrong. Either way, i dont buy it. If they are in the air, i dont believe Northstar is SO much faster than Riptide that the Shurikens are so slow that he can stop fighting, move over to the shurikens, pick them carefully out of the air, put them down, then carry on with what he was doing. Shouldn't he be busy fighting? And if they were on the floor, there is even less reason for him to pay attention to them.

[The Lucky One]

Good strategy, Flan and To. Just to quickly address a few of the points raised by people:

1. As mentioned in our strategy, Decibel's sound equipment is neutralised by Meggan's EMP thus negating the wall.

That's assuming Meggan can generate an EMP pulse before Northstar gets over to the other end, though. You're simultaneously claiming that Northstar's reaction speed is faster than everyone else's, but also that Meggan can generate an EMP field before he slams into the sound wall. Which is it?

2. As we quoted from X-men, Northstar's speeds are incredible, to the point that Sabra may as well be moving at a snail's pace or slower compared to him.

And that was an excellent quote... but the source you're quoting only proves that once Northstar is already moving at super-speed, he's far faster than a normal person's reaction speed. No argument from me whatsoever. But as has traditionally been Northstar's downfall in the Mutant League, his regular reaction speed before moving into super-speed are no faster than anyone else's... again, he doesn't live his life at an enhanced pace the way Quicksilver used to. If he did, your strategy would absolutely work, but as it is, he's not able to get to Karma in time, because Sabra's reaction speed actually IS far faster than a normal humans. Northstar moves at a far greater top speed, but she has a faster short-term reaction speed. So he gets blocked, then mind-controlled by Mysterio as TShark and I wrote, and then kissed by Rogue.

Again, as quoted, once he activates, Northstar's speed pwns any reaction times e.g the White Queen's and your move with Mysterio requires Northstar to already be in superspeed mode so as to get near you. So Mysterio is removed by Northstar's attack. You also don't have him teleport so he's right where he needs to be to get taken down by Northstar.

I'm not sure I understand, why is Mysterio out? You said Northstar targeted Karma... but as we put in our strategy, even IF Jean-Paul gets by the two defenses we set up against him and takes out Karma, Mysterio then immediately takes him over and things proceed as planned from there.

With Karma out of the picture, that leaves a hole in The Lucky One's strategy, since a big part of his plan was to have Karma control Meggan and/or Nocturne. and I would see neither happening now.

Understood, but that's why we put in the backup of Mysterio possessing Meggan instead if, by some random chance, Karma were to fall. :)

-D

[pryde15]

Understood, but that's why we put in the backup of Mysterio possessing Meggan instead if, by some random chance, Karma were to fall. :)

-D

hmm... I don't remember reading that, if true then I could see your team pulling it off. I am still waiting to vote, but you guys both did a great job with your strategies.

[The Lucky One]

Unfortunately for your tactic, Decibel is one of the few new Warriors who actually HAS powers. He was re-powered by Apocalypse some time ago.

While we do appreciate the help, it's true that Jono's current (sound-based) powers are entirely mechanical in nature, and so would be taken out by an EMP if Meggan had time to generate one. (Fortunately, in this particular strategy Jono's more of a backup than a key component.) Now, he may have enhanced durability or healing from Apocalypse's blood, we don't know, but his sound powers are all technological. Thanks, though. :)

The Clash at Demonhead:You're battle starts intelligently by guessing the speedster opponenet would attack first, and you deal with him in multiple ways. You stumble shortly after though. Karma suddenly takes possesion of Nocturne? A) Nocturne can also posses people, so wouldn't she have natural defenses about being posessed herself? B) Has she ever been posessed? C) You also claim Karma is the strongest posessor in the world, but where is this info coming from? Surely Shadow King is stronger then her since he did take control of her for a while.

A) Nocturne has a very tiny amount of telepathy she was born with, but it's only usable if boosted by some external source, like Cerebro (Exiles #1). She's has never shown any kind of psi-defenses. But even if she did, that's why Meggan is written as Karma's primary target, with Nocturne only sort of an "added bonus" if she can be gotten.
B)I can't swear to it, but I believe she has.
C) Karma is the most specialized possession psi in the world, according to Professor X. There are certainly more powerful telepaths out there, the Shadow King among them, but they all tend to have a wide range of telepathic abilities. By contrast, Karma only has the one (or two, if you count the psi-shields), but because of that she's far more skilled and successful at it than any other telepath, even those with more overall raw power.

And yes, she did get taken over by the Shadow King, but being great at possession doesn't mean you're immune to it yourself. (See: Nocturne.) That was also before she developed the psi-shields she first manifested in the New Mutants: Truth or Death miniseries.

-D

[The Lucky One]

I don't think Northstar would be able to grab Riptide's shurikens. Even at super speed, grabbing them with your hands would cut them up pretty badly. But I'm still reading...

In the interest of absolute fairness and honesty, he probably would be able to. (Kind of moot, since we don't have Riptide using them in our strategy, but...) Longshot was able to catch all of them and throw them back at Riptide once, so if Northstar got to moving at a really fast speed (before being possessed and kissed), he probably could too.

And although it isnt the best resource, Wikipedia DOES list Karma as having developed psi shielding.

The New Mutants: Truth or Death miniseries. Issue number 1 or 2, can't remember which.

-D

[Diablito]

I vote for TShark82 and The Lucky One:

As The Lucky One stated, Northstar and Meggan have basic reaction times (at least until Northstar turns on his power). This gives Sabra enough time to stand in front of Karma and protect her, changing the course of the battle. However, this was a great match, and it was The Lucky One's later comments that made his team win. Great job to both teams!

[venuscameback]

I don't believe Sabra would get the drop on Northstar, or that Mysterio could mind control Northstar so quick that he'd be under his control before Northstar can take out Karma and then Mysterio. With Hellion pinning down Riptide and Meggan removing Decibel's power source, TLO's crew are in big trouble.

Further, I don't believe TLO's describing Mary Zero's powers accurately. IIRC she has such a shy, retiring, walflower personality that unless you're looking for her she can't be seen. No-one notices her unless they're paying close attnetion (as Deadpool did) but the Brides of Wakanda will be looking out for her and will be paying attention as they know she's going to be one of their opponents, so they should be able to see her.

and if all else fails, Meggan's widespread flood will take care of her

EDIT: my apologies to TShark82 for not mentioning him alongside Drew in the above

[Flâneur]

Unfortunately for your tactic, Decibel is one of the few new Warriors who actually HAS powers. He was re-powered by Apocalypse some time ago. So the tactic to shortcircuit him is null and void, causing Northstar to crash into the sound shield, and giving Mysterio plenty of time to possess him. This major over-sight,means Northstar is open to being mind controlled/stunned by the sound wall and attacked by Rogue, and Karma is totally safe, free to possess your team. With Rogue using Northstars Powers, Northstar out of the fight, and Karma taking up both Nocture AND Meggan. i'd say most of your tactics fall apart without Northstar as your speed-power house and Meggan and Nocture doing their thing.
As shown in New Warriors 7, Decibel's powers are based on tech alone.

OK, question. When Northstar picks up the shurikens are they in mid-air? I mean, if Hellion hold Riptide under a TK shield, the shurikens will just fall to the ground. I thought Northstar was just picking them up off the ground after Riptide was out.

They aren't, he's 'garbage collecting' and Riptide is pinned and not moving, so he's just picking the closest ones from the ground.

[The Lucky One]

Further, I don't believe TLO's describing Mary Zero's powers accurately. IIRC she has such a shy, retiring, walflower personality that unless you're looking for her she can't be seen. No-one notices her unless they're paying close attnetion (as Deadpool did) but the Brides of Wakanda will be looking out for her and will be paying attention as they know she's going to be one of their opponents, so they should be able to see her.

With all due respect, Ian, no, I described them correctly- she literally can't be noticed. In the comics, Mary couldn't make anyone notice her... it's not like she was hiding, she was actually incredibly lonely because (before Agent X) no one could notice her. Paying attention had nothing to do with it.

I don't believe Sabra would get the drop on Northstar, or that Mysterio could mind control Northstar so quick that he'd be under his control before Northstar can take out Karma and then Mysterio. With Hellion pinning down Riptide and Meggan removing Decibel's power source, TLO's crew are in big trouble.

To be honest, and of course I'm biased, but as I read over Flan and Toboe's strategy, I was surprised by how well their opening actions work out for our team. Because even if we assume that Northstar gets to Karma and isn't blocked by the hard sound bubble, then he has to knock Karma out AND contend with Sabra, who's tough enough to take more than a few of his punches, in the split-second before Mysterio can mind control him (as he's done to even strong-willed people, as seen when he made Spidey and Daredevil fight in S-Man/Black Cat, or when he almost made Spidey kill himself [damn Flash Thompson!] in that FNSM storyline). He might get Karma, he might even land a few blows on Sabra, but Mysterio too, all before he's mind controlled? No way. And once that happens, Northstar's out and Rogue has his speed.

What happens next? Well, Meggan is written as using her first moves with the EMP burst, making herself black, and giving M an orgasm, which is nice and all but certainly gives Mysterio enough time, now that Northstar's out, to grab her (as written in our strategy that he would if Karma were taken out). Having Nocturne possess M was an excellent bonus for us, eliminating the need for the mind controlled Meggan to attack her and allowing both Meggan and superfast Rogue to double team M/Nocturne (also written in our strategy), who are just coming down from what I'm sure was an earth-shattering orgasm, and thus are certainly what one might call... *ahem* distracted. That just leaves Sabra (and presumably Riptide, since there's clearly no need to guard Karma anymore) to keep Hellion occupied until Meggan and Rogue finish off M/Nocturne and can lend a hand... and frankly, I'm not sure Sabra can't take Hellion just on her own. And that would sort of be the end of it.

Granted, I'm a little unclear about the reason for having T.J. possess M, making it a 4 against 7 fight, but TShark and I aren't complaining. ;)

-D

[venuscameback]

With all due respect, Ian, no, I described them correctly- she literally can't be noticed. In the comics, Mary couldn't make anyone notice her... it's not like she was hiding, she was actually incredibly lonely because (before Agent X) no one could notice her. Paying attention had nothing to do with it.

With all due respect, Drew, Gail Simone [Mary Zero's creator] herself said otherwise, as I learned the other day

Mary Zero ... a girl with so little personality that most people couldn't see her even when she was standing in front of them.

- Page 89, The Comics Journal #286 (November 2007)

It's not that other people can't physically see her, it's that Mary Zero is barely even there in the first place

[Flâneur]

Good strategy, Flan and To. Just to quickly address a few of the points raised by people:



That's assuming Meggan can generate an EMP pulse before Northstar gets over to the other end, though. You're simultaneously claiming that Northstar's reaction speed is faster than everyone else's, but also that Meggan can generate an EMP field before he slams into the sound wall. Which is it?
Well you yourself say that Northstar has an ordinary start time for his powers, much like Meggan would, and you aren't stopping Northstar using Karma ... instead you go for Meggan, who would have released her EMP before she was possessed.

He also is faster than everyone else once at full speed, you do nothing to prevent this speed. In fact, you presuppose him moving at this speed when attempting to use Mysterio against us and as shown, when moving at full speed Northstar moves more than fast enough to beat Mysterio's reflex.



Northstar moves at a far greater top speed, but she has a faster short-term reaction speed. So he gets blocked, then mind-controlled by Mysterio as TShark and I wrote, and then kissed by Rogue.

How is Sabra an effective block? Northstar isn't required to move in a straight line - he could simply go around her. He's that fast that the slight change in direction is negligible even to someone at his immense speed. He isn't blocked, and that is where problems start to crop up for your team since a great deal of it relies on you taking down Northstar.

Also, even if you possess Meggan ... when (and not if) Karma is taken down, we get her back again.

I'm not sure I understand, why is Mysterio out? You said Northstar targeted Karma... but as we put in our strategy, even IF Jean-Paul gets by the two defenses we set up against him and takes out Karma, Mysterio then immediately takes him over and things proceed as planned from there.
Mysterio simply doesn't have the reaction time once Northstar is at full speed, and you let him get to full speed before you even try to possess him.

I also think you disregard the wake Northstar leaves with his speed, when fighting in the corridors of the S.H.I.E.L.D carrier in X-men Annual by Carey, there was a gale force gust due to his speed. Mysterio would be thrown off balance by this as well.

What happens next? Well, Meggan is written as using her first moves with the EMP burst, making herself black, and giving M an orgasm, which is nice and all but certainly gives Mysterio enough time, now that Northstar's out, to grab her (as written in our strategy that he would if Karma were taken out). Having Nocturne possess M was an excellent bonus for us, eliminating the need for the mind controlled Meggan to attack her and allowing both Meggan and superfast Rogue to double team M/Nocturne (also written in our strategy), who are just coming down from what I'm sure was an earth-shattering orgasm, and thus are certainly what one might call... *ahem* distracted. That just leaves Sabra (and presumably Riptide, since there's clearly no need to guard Karma anymore) to keep Hellion occupied until Meggan and Rogue finish off M/Nocturne and can lend a hand... and frankly, I'm not sure Sabra can't take Hellion just on her own. And that would sort of be the end of it.

Granted, I'm a little unclear about the reason for having T.J. possess M, making it a 4 against 7 fight, but TShark and I aren't complaining. ;)

-D

Well we don't start with the orgasmic stuff till the end when you're washed up. It's just some classic CC domination. ;)

Also, TJ possesses M to A) get her airborne so Mary Zero can't do a thing to anyone without us targeting her and B) so that M has the necessary fighting skill so as to easily outmatch Sabra.

Good match dude. :)

[The Lucky One]

With all due respect, Drew, Gail Simone [Mary Zero's creator] herself said otherwise, as I learned the other day



- Page 89, The Comics Journal #286 (November 2007)

It's not that other people can't physically see her, it's that Mary Zero is barely even there in the first place

I'm not disputing what Gail Simone said (obviously), but I'm having a hard time seeing how that ties in to what you're saying. Gail says she doesn't have much personality. You say that means she can be seen by people who are specifically looking for her, just not those who aren't? How do the two have anything to do with each other? In the issues Mary appeared in (written by Gail Simone), she could not get anyone to notice her, even when she tried. I guess I'm not seeing the connection.

-D

[venuscameback]

I'm not disputing what Gail Simone said (obviously), but I'm having a hard time seeing how that ties in to what you're saying. Gail says she doesn't have much personality. You say that means she can be seen by people who are specifically looking for her, just not those who aren't? How do the two have anything to do with each other? In the issues Mary appeared in (written by Gail Simone), she could not get anyone to notice her, even when she tried. I guess I'm not seeing the connection.

-D

Mary's personality blends into the background so much that folk see her but don't notice her. Just as many people might not notice someone has a new haircut, but someone who is attentive or who cares enough would pick up in it right away. Agent X/Deadpool is attentive to details, so he notices her.

I think when Mary's trying to get folk to notice her we're seeing what she'd like to say and do, not what she's really doing, and that's why it doesn't help anyone see her

What's your explanation for how come Agent X/Deadpool (whoever he was)can see her when no-one else apparently can? and do you really think Mary Zero would have the gumption to pick up a rock and hit anyone?

[The Lucky One]

I think when Mary's trying to get folk to notice her we're seeing what she'd like to say and do, not what she's really doing, and that's why it doesn't help anyone see her

Okay... that's an interesting philosophical theory and who knows, maybe there's even something to it, but that's not what's depicted in the comics. What's in the comics is that she cannot get anyone's attention and can't be noticed. Period. Maybe Nightcrawler doesn't actually teleport, he just freezes time, throws down a smoke/sulfur bomb, walks to where he wants to go, and unfreezes time... but what's in the comics is that he teleports. So that's what I account for in reading, voting on, and writing strategies.

What's your explanation for how come Agent X/Deadpool (whoever he was)can see her when no-one else apparently can?

Well, he's made up of several different minds crammed haphazardly together, one of them a dead man's and one completely insane (Deadpool), which I suppose might have something to do with it. What's your explanation for why Deadpool can see the square thought boxes when no other comic character can?

and do you really think Mary Zero would have the gumption to pick up a rock and hit anyone?

Uh... yes? She chased after bank robbers, so...

-D

[Sheldon]

I'm with Drew and Tshark82, for reasons mostly posted (northstar's reaction time, and Karma's control of Nocturne controlling Meggan is excellent). If they can control Meggan, who is insanely powerful, this matchup is pretty much decided

A really good matchup, but I feel the Clash has the win.

[venuscameback]

What's in the comics is that she cannot get anyone's attention and can't be noticed. Period.

-D

What's in the comics is that she can be noticed - by Agent X/Deadpool, for one - but that most people don't notice her. The comics establish one character who can see her. If one person can see we know it's possible (at least in theory)for people to see her, we just don't know who. saying she can't be seen, period, and claiming that's what comics say, isn't accurate.

I suspect we need to agree to disagree here, especially given that I don't think this significantly changes the outcome of the match

[Shyft]

What's in the comics is that she can be noticed - by Agent X/Deadpool, for one - but that most people don't notice her. The comics establish one character who can see her. If one person can see we know it's possible (at least in theory)for people to see her, we just don't know who. saying she can't be seen, period, and claiming that's what comics say, isn't accurate.

I suspect we need to agree to disagree here, especially given that I don't think this significantly changes the outcome of the match

yeah but Agent X being able to see her isnt the same as everyone else being able to. Deadpool/agent X have been shown as having "Comic" awareness, so i wouldn't take what they can do as a level for what everyone else can.

[DeniseXfrost]

Going for TShark8&The Lucky One. Even tho Karma fails to possess Megan, his backup plan still goes according to plan.

[Novaya Havoc]

Mitsaso and I have decided to vote for --
Flaneur and Toboe, for two principal reasons:

1. The overuse of insta-strikes.
2. The team dynamic.

I dunno about Mitsy (I never talked with him about this in detail), but one thing I'm weighing into my votes is the team composition more than just the powersets involved. I let this slide in the last match vote (I was really against Madrox/Tryp being on a team and working together), but I have to vocalize it here.

Fundamentally I think diverse powersets should be linked to a believeable team dynamic to make the strategy plausible. If you put Xavier, Mojo, Firestar, Qwerty, Dazzler, Amelia Voght, and Phantazia on a team in any comic book -- would the team dynamic make sense at the outset or be workable in battle? Nah.

So I fundamentally give The Brides of Wakanda the advantage in using a believeable dynamic in M, Meggan, Hellion, Nocturne, and Northstar. All are heroes, even if they have little leadership capacity.

By contrast, Karma, Jono, Riptide, Sabra, a fairly personalityless Rogue, Mysterio, and Mary Zero are a haphazard mix. I understand this from a powerset dynamic, but not at all from a personality one.

Secondly, the instamove strikes of TLO/TShark are too much for us, especially in this critical instasimultaneousmove:
Karma possessing Nocturne who possesses Meggan.

CREATIVE AS HELL. Too tough to pull off, time-wise. And it underestimates Meggan. If we're giving her a Lv. 3 rank, we should treat her as a Lv. 3 character. She's basically possessed then taken out of the entire fight all too quickly, and it really stretches what we think TJ could do. Her possession power is pretty undefined, and -- while creative -- we think a DP possession stretches this too much ("their minds go all 'swiss cheese'," according to TJ -- could Karma hold onto a psychic possession if this is the case? We think it would force her out of TJ's mind entirely once she dipped into Meggan).

To balance, we think Northstar KOing Karma in one shot is a bit much, too, but Flaneur/Toboe do well in trying to disrupt the other team as well, without being too focused on the immediate KOs.

The rest we have no real problems with from either side. As a comment/constructive criticism, it probably would have been better for Karma to possess Northstar and use his superspeed to disrupt the other team, making them unbalanced.

Rogue also seemed like a non-player. She didn't do much under the team that held her, and the team attacking her didn't acknowledge her much until later.

But the risky moves TLO/TShark use at the outset, coupled with the different team personality dynamics, has us tossing the vote to the Brides.

[Shyft]

Mitsaso and I have decided to vote for --
Flaneur and Toboe, for two principal reasons:

1. The overuse of insta-strikes.
2. The team dynamic.

I dunno about Mitsy (I never talked with him about this in detail), but one thing I'm weighing into my votes is the team composition more than just the powersets involved. I let this slide in the last match vote (I was really against Madrox/Tryp being on a team and working together), but I have to vocalize it here.

Fundamentally I think diverse powersets should be linked to a believeable team dynamic to make the strategy plausible. If you put Xavier, Mojo, Firestar, Qwerty, Dazzler, Amelia Voght, and Phantazia on a team in any comic book -- would the team dynamic make sense at the outset or be workable in battle? Nah.

So I fundamentally give The Brides of Wakanda the advantage in using a believeable dynamic in M, Meggan, Hellion, Nocturne, and Northstar. All are heroes, even if they have little leadership capacity.

By contrast, Karma, Jono, Riptide, Sabra, a fairly personalityless Rogue, Mysterio, and Mary Zero are a haphazard mix. I understand this from a powerset dynamic, but not at all from a personality one.



im the opposite, i LIKE that its crazy mixes of characters on one team. Otherwise, if character relationships were taken into account, we would all just end up picking various incarnations of the X-Men, the Marauders, The Acolytes, etc. yes there is room for variation within those groups, but most combinations have already been seen in the comics. I dont want to read about Cyclops Emma Angel Collosus and Beast fighting Lady M Riptide Vertigo Gambit and Tempo on these boards, because its already in the comics! I wanna see Apocalypse and Wallflower comboing against Wolfsbane and Lady Deathstrike!

Otherwise, it also means that any team who has a wierd mix of character automatically starts with points against them, which negates the hard work people put into their tactics. It also gives an unfair advantage to teams who may have terrible tactics, but picked a bunch of characters who get on. They have an advantage due to no real skill of their own.

[Novaya Havoc]

im the opposite, i LIKE that its crazy mixes of characters on one team. Otherwise, if character relationships were taken into account, we would all just end up picking various incarnations of the X-Men, the Marauders, The Acolytes, etc. yes there is room for variation within those groups, but most combinations have already been seen in the comics. I dont want to read about Cyclops Emma Angel Collosus and Beast fighting Lady M Riptide Vertigo Gambit and Tempo on these boards, because its already in the comics! I wanna see Apocalypse and Wallflower comboing against Wolfsbane and Lady Deathstrike!

Otherwise, it also means that any team who has a wierd mix of character automatically starts with points against them, which negates the hard work people put into their tactics. It also gives an unfair advantage to teams who may have terrible tactics, but picked a bunch of characters who get on. They have an advantage due to no real skill of their own.

To clarify:
I'm not giving this the weight, I'm just giving it some weight. In this instance, some claim that 7 chars v. 5 chars is better. To counter, I say that a cohesive team gets an edge over a mixed one. IMO, it's no different than the idea that a team with a telepath gets an edge over one without (and many strategies emphasize this, as telepaths historically have done KO psyche moves and the defenders try to immediately KO the psychic).

I don't think every team should gel together perfectly. But I think that thinking that one team is naturally going to have a little more tension amongst the ranks than another is valid.

YMMV. Mitsaso and I don't agree 100% on this either. I was tossing it out there, and I still think it's a valid point. It shouldn't just be the powers, but also the characters behind the powers that drive it.

After all, there have been critiques across the matches that address the characters' personalities (i.e., "I don't think X character would do that"). Even TLO/TShark argue that Meggan and Northstar have mental issues.

Given that, I think the team assemblage should affect the outcome somewhat. Not the prinicpal factor, but a factor nonetheless.

[Josef F.]

im the opposite, i LIKE that its crazy mixes of characters on one team. Otherwise, if character relationships were taken into account, we would all just end up picking various incarnations of the X-Men, the Marauders, The Acolytes, etc. yes there is room for variation within those groups, but most combinations have already been seen in the comics. I dont want to read about Cyclops Emma Angel Collosus and Beast fighting Lady M Riptide Vertigo Gambit and Tempo on these boards, because its already in the comics! I wanna see Apocalypse and Wallflower comboing against Wolfsbane and Lady Deathstrike!


She should so be in that draft.
We're going to make lady deathstrike ice scultpures.
Just so she's THERE.
:(

[Shyft]

To clarify:
I'm not giving this the weight, I'm just giving it some weight. In this instance, some claim that 7 chars v. 5 chars is better. To counter, I say that a cohesive team gets an edge over a mixed one. IMO, it's no different than the idea that a team with a telepath gets an edge over one without (and many strategies emphasize this, as telepaths historically have done KO psyche moves and the defenders try to immediately KO the psychic).

I don't think every team should gel together perfectly. But I think that thinking that one team is naturally going to have a little more tension amongst the ranks than another is valid.

YMMV. Mitsaso and I don't agree 100% on this either. I was tossing it out there, and I still think it's a valid point. It shouldn't just be the powers, but also the characters behind the powers that drive it.

After all, there have been critiques across the matches that address the characters' personalities (i.e., "I don't think X character would do that"). Even TLO/TShark argue that Meggan and Northstar have mental issues.

Given that, I think the team assemblage should affect the outcome somewhat. Not the prinicpal factor, but a factor nonetheless.


meh, i guess it will just be personal preferance. For me, even the psychic thing still requires the team to use it in the right way. If the team dont specificy "and then our psi breaks the mind of character X" it isnt an advantage to them. But having a team of characters who gel well, in your view, already gives the well "gelled" team the advantage going into the fight,without ANY input from the team creator. It would basically mean that everyone went for team members who get on,doing away with interesting blends, because everyone wants that small edge, because we all want to win.

[TShark82]

meh, i guess it will just be personal preferance. For me, even the psychic thing still requires the team to use it in the right way. If the team dont specificy "and then our psi breaks the mind of character X" it isnt an advantage to them. But having a team of characters who gel well, in your view, already gives the well "gelled" team the advantage going into the fight,without ANY input from the team creator. It would basically mean that everyone went for team members who get on,doing away with interesting blends, because everyone wants that small edge, because we all want to win.

Shyft your spot on, I mean honestly, its all to do with how you manage the characters abilities together and making the voters by how it would work. If you gave a person a great roster of people and they didnt know how to manage their abilities properly thats on them another person could take that team and have great success.

Im surprised by the vote count actually.

[worstblogever]

I find the Nocturne/Karma/Meggan nesting doll of psychic possession fascinating... but implausible. Because in effect... Karma is possessing 2 minds at once. One of them, who also understands psychic possession herself. I think that in that instance, Nocturne would be able to reach the mind of Meggan, and together, give her the boot out of their heads.

In effect, Tshark82 and the Lucky One got greedy. Rather than just possess Meggan, who is susceptible to mental attacks, and swing a 3 point character to their team, they tried to take two with her. If they had taken out Stroke Girl in a normal manner WITH Meggan... they probably would have gotten my vote, though.

[Flâneur]

Im surprised by the vote count actually.
I didn't think our strategy was that bad that it's surprising people would vote for us?:confused:
I find the Nocturne/Karma/Meggan nesting doll of psychic possession fascinating... but implausible. Because in effect... Karma is possessing 2 minds at once. One of them, who also understands psychic possession herself. I think that in that instance, Nocturne would be able to reach the mind of Meggan, and together, give her the boot out of their heads.
It reminds me of the old Ms Marvel Rogue actually, when you hit one persona, the other floated up and took control because of the dual minds. I'm guessing Nocturne and any host bodies would be rather similar.

[The Lucky One]

It reminds me of the old Ms Marvel Rogue actually, when you hit one persona, the other floated up and took control because of the dual minds. I'm guessing Nocturne and any host bodies would be rather similar.

I doubt it... when Karma possesses someone, she doesn't share minds with them, and they aren't aware of what's happening; their mind essentially goes to sleep, and they usually don't know afterward what they've done while possessed.

Oh well. Not that it makes a huge difference to your strategy (or the voting at this point), but in your next strategy, you might want to steer clear of having Meggan change her skin color or any aspects of her appearance on purpose. Meggan changes unconsciously in response to her surroundings and how other people feel about her, but she can't control it.

-D

[Flâneur]

I doubt it... when Karma possesses someone, she doesn't share minds with them, and they aren't aware of what's happening; their mind essentially goes to sleep, and they usually don't know afterward what they've done while possessed.
I know, it was basically thinking aloud. I'm sorry if I gave the impression that I was trying to push an unnecessary point. :o

Not that it makes a huge difference to your strategy (or the voting at this point), but in your next strategy, you might want to steer clear of having Meggan change her skin color or any aspects of her appearance on purpose. Meggan changes unconsciously in response to her surroundings and how other people feel about her, but she can't control it.

-D

It was mainly a gag, based on our name and also the surroundings (with its stereotypical Gateway indigenous australian character). Also, I always thought Meggan could control her form e.g when she grew to Galactus' size or made herself stronger to deal with quite a few bad guys or grew claws in HoM UXM or shifted to her 'true' form in Excalibur.

Also, regardless of how the vote ends up in the next 4 hours or so; it's been a pleasure having a match with you Drew (it's D for Drew right?), you had a great strategy and you've been a very congenial opponent. :)

EDIT: I also hope I haven't been too crabby when arguing for the strategies, my apologies.

[Novaya Havoc]

It reminds me of the old Ms Marvel Rogue actually, when you hit one persona, the other floated up and took control because of the dual minds. I'm guessing Nocturne and any host bodies would be rather similar.

Psychics can't sense Nocturne when she's inside someone else -- their minds go "all swiss cheese." Xavier couldn't sense Nocturne inside of Wolverine at all when they were on the Phoenix World (I want to say this is Exiles #3).

So I think that Karma being able to hold onto TJ, let alone also hold Meggan, is a stretch. *shrug*

GO TJ!

[Dagger]

Yes, but shurikens look like this:

http://files.turbosquid.com/Preview/Content_on_5_15_2004_12_49_30/shurikens_08.jpg6dfc6ce0-f84e-4123-a456-00da3ab09684Large.jpg

He'd have to grab them so carefully that I don't think he'd have time to catch them all at the speed Riptide throws them (which is also superhuman speed, don't forget).
Longshot has, and I'd say Northstar is quite a bit faster than Longshot.

[The Fury]

Also, I always thought Meggan could control her form e.g when she grew to Galactus' size or made herself stronger to deal with quite a few bad guys or grew claws in HoM UXM or shifted to her 'true' form in Excalibur.
In the majority of cases, Meggan's metamorphing powers are a response to the situation at hand and not really in her control.

One example of is in early Excalibur they fought Juggernaut, in the fight, she seemed to copy his powers, grew large and muscular with strength to match him. This is the same effect as when she changes her appearence which is usually bought on by a given situation. When she turns to her 'true' form, it is usually in response to Brian rejecting her, if she feels unnatractive she appears as such. Just like when Nightcrawler showed her affection, she seemed to respond by turning blue or when they first jumped to a new reality in Cross-Time Caper she met fairies and glowed like they did.

[The Lucky One]

Also, regardless of how the vote ends up in the next 4 hours or so; it's been a pleasure having a match with you Drew (it's D for Drew right?), you had a great strategy and you've been a very congenial opponent. :)

Thanks, Flan. (And yes, it's Drew.) Congrats to you and Toboe, and good luck in your next match.

-D

[Hi-Fi]

Frak! I didn't vote.

[Mitsaso]

Frak! I didn't vote.

I'm sure it would have made SUCH a difference.:p

[Hi-Fi]

I'm sure it would have made SUCH a difference.:p
LOL. Indeed.

[The Lucky One]

I'm sure it would have made SUCH a difference.:p

You're what's wrong with the American electoral process.

Yes, you personally.

-D

[Mitsaso]

You're what's wrong with the American electoral process.

Yes, you personally.

-D

Then it's such a good thing for you I'm not even American...!:p

[TShark82]

[QUOTE=Flâneur;6175694]I didn't think our strategy was that bad that it's surprising people would vote for us?:confused: [QUOTE]

I wasnt saying it was that bad its just I wouldnt havent have figured the vote to go to your team in a land slide, I thought they were quite even really.

[mattbib]

Final score is 22:11.

Congratulations, Flâneur & Toboe, you continue to Game 11 where you'll face the winner of Game 6 next Wednesday, January 23.

Good job, TShark82 & The Lucky One. You move into the lower bracket where next Wednesday you'll face the loser of Game 6.

Good luck!

[Toboe]

Nice match, TShark82 & The Lucky One!

Good luck on the next one.

Yeah, I'm so late...