The Tom Cruise Scientology Indoctrination Video!

[SoulOnIce]

That the Scientologists don't want you to see. It's being pulled from a number of sites under the threat of legal action. Defamer still has it:

http://defamer.com/344987/the-tom-cruise-indoctrination-video-scientologists-dont-want-you-to-see

Here is an edited version of the more "creeptastic" moments:

http://defamer.com/345201/defamers-top-five-creeptastic-moments-from-the-tom-cruise-scientology-video-you-know-the-one

It's sad what he has become. I do have sympathy for him.

[Infra-Man]

It's really sad watching creepy brainwashed people talk about their beliefs. Only thing missing in Tom's wardrobe for that vid is a tinfoil hat.

[Jack Zodiac]

What the fuck? That wasn't even really creepy, just fuckin' sad... :(

[Spiffy]

If you guys EVER want to be both terrified (and yet oddly amused simultaneously) by how INSANE and DANGEROUS Scientology is, go explore the Operation Clambake (http://www.xenu.net/) website a bit.

Actually even just Wikipedia has some stuff that alternates between gut bustlingly funny and eerie and scary. Some of it both at the same time, which is even odder.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_opera_in_Scientology_doctrine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology_beliefs_and_practices
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology_controversy

[singoalla]

wtf is with the mission impossible theme in the background? Yeah yea, tom cruise Mission Impossible guy.

"... you drive past an accident and you know you're the only one that can really help" What? Non-scientologists don't have cellphones or know how to dial 911? I swear, if I weren't an atheist I'd consider all this crap some sort of test by god just to see if I could handle it.

"We are the authorities on the mind--" Yeah, these are the insane people that told me I could stop twitching if I only wanted to, or let them save me.

[Darediva]

Though this whole thing, I keep wondering what the IT would be that he's talking about. Helping people in need? No, people like Brad Pitt who are building homes in hurricane-ravaged Louisiana and Mississippi are HELPING. What have you done on that score, Tom Cruise, Scientologist? (Moron)

[Spiffy]

wtf is with the mission impossible theme in the background? Yeah yea, tom cruise Mission Impossible guy.

"... you drive past an accident and you know you're the only one that can really help" What? Non-scientologists don't have cellphones or know how to dial 911? I swear, if I weren't an atheist I'd consider all this crap some sort of test by god just to see if I could handle it.

What Tom means, although maybe they don't want him saying it straight out to intro-level Scientology recruits being drawn in by him, is that only Scientologists have Superpowers.

That's right. Superpowers.

If you dig through ALL the crap, that's what all the insane Xenu and clearing and e-meter and auditing and thetan stuff is supposed to lead them to. Superpowers. Oh, and beyond that, Godhood. Yes. Individual Godhood.

In a way, talking about this on a comic book forum is appropriate... right?

[Dark Galaxy]

That the Scientologists don't want you to see. It's being pulled from a number of sites under the threat of legal action. Defamer still has it:

http://defamer.com/344987/the-tom-cruise-indoctrination-video-scientologists-dont-want-you-to-see

Here is an edited version of the more "creeptastic" moments:

http://defamer.com/345201/defamers-top-five-creeptastic-moments-from-the-tom-cruise-scientology-video-you-know-the-one

It's sad what he has become. I do have sympathy for him.

Holy Crap. That guy is batshit insane.

...and a lot scary.

[Lester C.]

He's still the finest actor on the planet.

[Spiffy]

He's still the finest actor on the planet.
Which planet?

[PatrickG]

"... you drive past an accident and you know you're the only one that can really help" What? Non-scientologists don't have cellphones or know how to dial 911? I swear, if I weren't an atheist I'd consider all this crap some sort of test by god just to see if I could handle it.


It IS! It's a test by the almighty and benevolent warlord Xenu.

He gave some people defective R6 implants which led to them stripping away the gift of their precious bodily thetans.

And lo! These people exist to test the faith and try the true sons and daughters of Xenu with intolerence, litigation and harassment.

The battle we fight is a spiritual one. We fight not against flesh, but the powers and principalities of a rebel opposition to our beloved Galactic Confederacy. If we as a people can move beyond Scientology here on the planet Teegeeack, Xenu will come to collect us in his cosmic DC-8s and lead us beyond the threshold of this overpopulated galaxy to expand beyond the 26 stars currently in his domain to a glorious future.

These Scientologists are corrupted by their desire for personal super-powers and personal gain. We at the Sons of Xenu believe that humanity's true super-powers are collective and impersonal, ever-reverant to our father Xenu who art in the Andromeda cluster, psychedelic be his name.

(Ahem. This is a carry over from the Scientology thread.)

[Dark Galaxy]

Which planet?

Exactly









........

[Lester C.]

Which planet?

Would it be wrong to admit I found the video inspirational.:o His basic message is sound and very motivational. And really how is this video different from a bible thumper's?

[scout1279]

What Tom means, although maybe they don't want him saying it straight out to intro-level Scientology recruits being drawn in by him, is that only Scientologists have Superpowers.

That's right. Superpowers.

If you dig through ALL the crap, that's what all the insane Xenu and clearing and e-meter and auditing and thetan stuff is supposed to lead them to. Superpowers. Oh, and beyond that, Godhood. Yes. Individual Godhood.

In a way, talking about this on a comic book forum is appropriate... right?
Superpowers? Really? I've always thought these Scientologists were a bit wacky, what with the clams and Xenu and all, but if it all ends in superpowers, I might just have to sign up. I mean, it's worth a shot, right?

[PatrickG]

Would it be wrong to admit I found the video inspirational.:o His basic message is sound and very motivational. And really how is this video different from a bible thumper's?

Bible Thumpers never stole a yacht, somebody's wife and $10,000?

[Lester C.]

Okay the last voice over is creepy but again I point to Christianity and say how is it all that different from Scientology?

[Spiffy]

It IS! It's a test by the almighty and benevolent warlord Xenu.

He gave some people defective R6 implants which led to them stripping away the gift of their precious bodily thetans.

And lo! These people exist to test the faith and try the true sons and daughters of Xenu with intolerence, litigation and harassment.
Heh.

Although actually Xenu is a bad guy in their little story. Stripping away their thetans was his goal, not an accident. Apparently he liked to scoop them up in huge Space Planes and brainwash them by making them watch stuff Clockwork Orange style on big video screens (quite a trick when they had no bodies, but apparently thetans are real suckers), then dump the thetans in a volcano, which when it exploded scattered them all across the globe.

Boo hiss, Xenu! Dude, why'd ya have to do that? Its messing us up SO badly that most of us are several centuries further away from our Superpowers and Godhood than we might have otherwise been!!!

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Its pretty funny. I don't really care what religion or cult Tom Cruise worships. But he's a happy as hell dude. It beats those celebrities who have a frown and act like dicks . Here ya got a funny kooky dude laughing and discussing shit knows what , but he's happy.

[Sean Walsh]

Would it be wrong to admit I found the video inspirational.:o His basic message is sound and very motivational. And really how is this video different from a bible thumper's?

....the thumper's got a couple thousand years of practiced religion on his side.

Even if it's all fake make-believe, a *few* more people have prescribed to that belief system (and several offshoot ones) over the years.

Meanwhile, Scientology is the religion of Hollywood; people who pretend to be other people for a living and are paid lots of money which means they can afford to be Scientologists.

[Dark Galaxy]

Okay the last voice over is creepy but again I point to Christianity and say how is it all that different from Scientology?

Philosophically I see where you are coming from. Both worship "imaginary" beings that control the bigger picture of the universe. Both can abuse people of faith by taking their money, and using their faith to further their "power." Etc. Etc.

But seriously. They talk crazy talk. Scientologists aren't just choosing to worship in a new and inventive way. They are living in some wacky alternate reality.

[David Atkins]

Apparently, the two most favored ways to sell people on one's cult these days are to A) Say 'I know' a lot and B) Force yourself to laugh a lot (and remember, you're not doing it right if you don't cause yourself to go red in the face).

[Spiffy]

Okay the last voice over is creepy but again I point to Christianity and say how is it all that different from Scientology?
Aside from the alien stuff, and a boatload of other beliefs that tip the wack-a-doodle scale, there's the fact that it was started to make L. Ron lots o' money, and he didn't give a crap about people's well being. Read up a bit. Ol' L. Ron narrowly escaped criminal charges not only in the U.S., but many other places around the globe. Parts of Scientology have been run like Organized crime, like a mob operation. Other parts like a Cult.

There are hundreds of little cult-like aspects to Scientology that can creep you out. The fact that blackmail, violence and vengeance are all officially sanctioned if you are declared a "Suppressive Person" interfering with the indoctrination of a Member. The way they deliberately edge out all old influences (i.e. "family and friends") from a member's old life who they feel can't be converted. The fact that they literally tweak the language taught to kids in their care to confuse them if they read outside media sources (many words literally mean different stuff in "Scientologese" than in standard English and this was done on purpose to help control their members). The fact that they aggressively recruit and proselytize, often under false presences. The mere fact that they collect money for EVERY bit of "help" they give (although Christianity historically has a crappy record with that too).

Tons of stuff. A mountain more than that list if you read up about them. And don't let the glamour of the "Hollywood Scientologists" fool you. They are treated differently from the rank and file as part of the master plan to shine the thing up. Anything Tom Cruise or any of the others in his circle say is from the vantage point of Olympus, not the worm's eye view of lesser members stuck in cult-like communes, operating under what are apparently some pretty draconian rules. Its no coincidence that Scientology has a "Celebrity Center" to cater to Tom and his ilk. It's a deliberate plan of deception. Of salesmanship that doesn't reflect the truth of Scientology for people who AREN'T Celebrities.

[Lester C.]

Philosophically I see where you are coming from. Both worship "imaginary" beings that control the bigger picture of the universe. Both can abuse people of faith by taking their money, and using their faith to further their "power." Etc. Etc.

But seriously. They talk crazy talk. Scientologists aren't just choosing to worship in a new and inventive way. They are living in some wacky alternate reality.

I agree. I'm not a Sociologist and believe in God if not Catholicism. But I still think that Tom's message of getting off your butt, helping people every way you can all the while of changing the world for the better is a good one.

[Dark Galaxy]

I But I still think that Tom's message of getting off your butt, helping people every way you can all the while of changing the world for the better is a good one.

Well, yeah, the message itself is a good one. But if to feel the "ability" to do those things you have to be indoctrinated into an unhealthy culture of loonies, I think the message may be a moot point.

[Lester C.]

Aside from the alien stuff, and a boatload of other beliefs that tip the wack-a-doodle scale, there's the fact that it was started to make L. Ron lots o' money, and he didn't give a crap about people's well being.

There are hundreds of little cult-like aspects to Scientology that can creep you out. The fact that blackmail, violence and vengeance are all officially sanctioned if you are declared a "Suppressive Person" interfering with the indoctrination of a Member. The way they deliberately edge out all old influences (i.e. "family and friends") from a member's old life who they feel can't be converted. The fact that they literally tweak the language taught to kids in their care to confuse them if they read outside media sources (many words literally mean different stuff in "Scientologese" than in standard English and this was done on purpose to help control their members). The fact that they aggressively recruit and proselytize, often under false presences. The mere fact that they collect money for EVERY bit of "help" they give (although Christianity historically has a crappy record with that too).

Tons of stuff. A mountain more than that list if you read up about them. And don't let the glamour of the "Hollywood Scientologists" fool you. They are treated differently from the rank and file as part of the master plan to shine the thing up. Anything Tom Cruise or any of the others in his circle say is from the vantage point of Olympus, not the members stuck in cult-like communes.

Any religion when it first starts out is extremely freaky when judged by other longer standing religions. A couple thousand years back if you would have told someone that there was this Yeshua person claiming that not only did he come back from the dead, but he was in fact the son of god and you need to believe in him in order to get into heaven you'd think he was nuts too.

All I'm saying is that we are suppose to have religious tolerance and freedom in this country and I don't see it.

[Spiffy]

Any religion when it first starts out is extremely freaky when judged by other longer standing religions. A couple thousand years back if you would have told someone that there was this Yeshua person claiming that not only did he come back from the dead, but he was in fact the son of god and you need to believe in him in order to get into heaven you'd think he was nuts too.

All I'm saying is that we are suppose to have religious tolerance and freedom in this country and I don't see it.
So the Moonies deserved this kind of consideration? The Branch Davidians at Waco? Manson's followers? Jim Jones and his bunch?

Sometimes something labeled a religion is not a religion, but a cult. I mean if a few hundred years passed the dangerous aspects of Branch Davidianism might be weeded out, but do you see it as worthy of protection until then?

Scientology is perhaps not quite as directly violent as those others, but it has an agenda of mass conversion within a framework designed to profit its leaders immensely, and leave its followers in a subservient position. And many of the lessons it teaches are dangerous. Not to go to a psychiatrist. To lie and cheat and commit violence against people who don't believe what you do. To implement an organized program of double-speak and double-think to members to disconnect them from the outside world. To use celebrities as symbols to promote a false (or at least incomplete) version of their beliefs. Never mind the alien stuff. It's how they ACT that's the issue.

Freedom of religion reaches its breaking point when the religion harms a society as a whole.

[Lester C.]

So the Moonies deserved this kind of consideration? The Branch Davidians at Waco? Manson's followers? Jim Jones and his bunch?

Sometimes something labeled a religion is not a religion, but a cult. I mean if a few hundred years passed the dangerous aspects of Branch Davidianism might be weeded out, but do you see it as worthy of protection until then?

Scientology is perhaps not quite as directly violent as those others, but it has an agenda of mass conversion within a framework designed to profit its leaders immensely, and leave its followers in a subservient position. And many of the lessons it teaches are dangerous. Not to go to a psychiatrist. To lie and cheat and commit violence against people who don't believe what you do. To implement an organized program of double-speak and double-think to members to disconnect them from the outside world. To use celebrities as symbols to promote a false (or at least incomplete) version of their beliefs. Never mind the alien stuff. It's how they ACT that's the issue.

Freedom of religion reaches its breaking point when the religion harms a society as a whole.

The example you used had people breaking the law. As goofy as I think Scientogist are the vast majority of them, including Tom Crusie, aren't breaking any laws. Nor are they hurting anybody. The first amendment has to be applied equally or not at all if it is to be fair and true.

[Red Jack]

MAN!

That is one loony movie star!

edit: but Lester's right. You start shutting down churches for that sort of thing and you'll find your own favorite Supernatural Worship Object on the chopping block pretty quick.

[Dark Galaxy]

Freedom of religion reaches its breaking point when the religion harms a society as a whole.

Or if certain organizations are even religions at all.

I may believe my favorite cactus is the savior of mankind. If I get thousands of people to give me money, and believe it too, does not make it a religion. It makes me a bastard, that preys on people who want to believe in something.

[Evan Waters]

Okay the last voice over is creepy but again I point to Christianity and say how is it all that different from Scientology?

Short answer: it's free.

I would have no complaints about Scientology if they made all their beliefs a matter of public record and public domain. A Catholic priest will gladly tell you about the Trinity and it's up to you to decide whether you believe that- the Church of Scientology wants to make sure you're in too deep to back out before they let you know their secrets.

[Spiffy]

The example you used had people breaking the law. As goofy as I think Scientogist are the vast majority of them, including Tom Crusie, aren't breaking any laws. Nor are they hurting anybody. The first amendment has to be applied equally or not at all if it is to be fair and true.
Those behaviors are described (and by that I mean suggested, endorsed, ordered, whatever you want to call it) in L. Ron's writings. This isn't bad stuff that people are doing who just happen to be Scientologists, its the directives of their founder.

It's ALL online. L. Ron wrote and distributed all of this, and the organizations which track cult behavior have preserved it in posterity where anyone with Google can find it.

[Lester C.]

Those behaviors are described (and by that I mean suggested, endorsed, ordered, whatever you want to call it) in L. Ron's writings. This isn't bad stuff that people are doing who just happen to be Scientologists, its the directives of their founder.

It's ALL online. L. Ron wrote and distributed all of this, and the organizations which track cult behavior have preserved it in posterity where anyone with Google can find it.

I would like to very respectfully point out that religious institutions change over time and are no longer constrained or ruled by the tenets of the people who have found them. For instance just because the bible was once used to endorse slavery, it doesn't mean that modern Chirstans are for slavery.

[Spiffy]

I would like to very respectfully point out that religious institutions change over time and are no longer constrained or ruled by the tenets of the people who have found them. For instance just because the bible was once used to endorse slavery, it doesn't mean that modern Chirstans are for slavery.
A reasonable argument for 2000 years. But 50? Not as compelling.

Scientology has only ever had two leaders (Hubbard died in '86 and David Miscavige took over soon after). Not much changes in the span of two leaders.

[Rattlehead]

MAN!

That is one loony movie star!

edit: but Lester's right. You start shutting down churches for that sort of thing and you'll find your own favorite Supernatural Worship Object on the chopping block pretty quick.

horseshit. Scientology should be shutdown not because Tom Cruise is a loony, but because it's nothing more than an organized crime cartel. They destroy lives of people that speak out against them. They have even resorted to murder. Do a Google search and you'll find the ugly truth behind it.

There's a reason why every other country besides the US has denied them status as a legitimate religion.

[Mysterio]

I found this video... baffling. Just what is he talking about? I interpreted this as the ramblings of a madman. Not once did anything he say make any sense. "And when I read it... poof... this is it." What does this mean?! What are you talking about Tom Cruise!?!?!

[Spiffy]

horseshit. Scientology should be shutdown not because Tom Cruise is a loony, but because it's nothing more than an organized crime cartel. They destroy lives of people that speak out against them. They have even resorted to murder. Do a Google search and you'll find the ugly truth behind it.

There's a reason why every other country besides the US has denied them status as a legitimate religion.
I think Murder is the exception, not the rule, for them but there's a ton of documentation about extortion, bribery, embezzlement, fraud and other lovely activities of that nature being S.O.P. for them.

And even within the bounds of the legal system, they like to use the threat of lawsuits, with mega-millions of dollars of power behind them, to force people to their will.

This doesn't even begin to get into the stuff that's criminal, or at best borderline criminal, that they do to their own members. And I'm not talking about how Leah Remini or Tom Cruise or Jenna Elfman or John Travolta are treated.

Even on the smaller more personal scale there's a ton of misconduct. It's pretty commonly known that they push people for meaty revelations in those "auditing" sessions under the guise of it being some kind of purification, but they record them and have no problem using those recordings for blackmail after the fact. Allegedly Nicole Kidman was kept in line with just such a threat, so even the celebs aren't completely immune if they try and break away.

I found this video... baffling. Just what is he talking about? I interpreted this as the ramblings of a madman. Not once did anything he say make any sense. "And when I read it... poof... this is it." What does this mean?! What are you talking about Tom Cruise!?!?!
He's literally talking about using Superpowers when he refers to Scientologists being the ones able to do things. And all that stuff about SPs concerns people who are disbelievers and "negative influences" who have to be opposed or forcibly removed.

It's impossible to understand because while it uses English words, its literally another language because the words have been given different meanings by the Scientologists: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Library/Shelf/wakefield/us-08.html

[Magneto_X]

I found this video... baffling. Just what is he talking about? I interpreted this as the ramblings of a madman. Not once did anything he say make any sense. "And when I read it... poof... this is it." What does this mean?! What are you talking about Tom Cruise!?!?!

Could be wrong but he could mean that after reading something the Scienos gave him, possibly Dianetics, it solved all his problems.

He's just phrasing it in a movie star/conman fashion.

[Mysterio]

Was it just me, or in clip #5, did he have a crazy Jack Nicholson grin going on?

[Infra-Man]

While I suppose I appreciate the calls for tolerance for Scientologists' beliefs per se, I can't help but feel like that helps legitimize a con job that dons the wardrobe of religion and spirituality.

Furthermore, Scientology is an obvious sham with a history of milking people of their money and harassing/intimidating former members and critics of Scientology. Its for this reason I find nothing redeemable about that cult even on a superficial level.

[Tobias March]

"...you're either in or you're out"....."rough and tumble"

It just slips out doesn't it?

[Infra-Man]

"...you're either in or you're out"....."rough and tumble"

It just slips out doesn't it?

My favorite innuendo line was "I have my own out ethics to put in someone else's ethics and that's all it comes down to. And I won't hesitate to put ethics in someone else because I put it ruthlessly in on myself."

[Jack Zodiac]

Though this whole thing, I keep wondering what the IT would be that he's talking about. Helping people in need? No, people like Brad Pitt who are building homes in hurricane-ravaged Louisiana and Mississippi are HELPING. What have you done on that score, Tom Cruise, Scientologist? (Moron)

He can't actually help people with his money, because that would mean giving his money to anything other than Scientology. Tom Cruise helps people the same way Scientology helps people, by talking at them in the face until their brains go numb.

It IS! It's a test by the almighty and benevolent warlord Xenu.

He gave some people defective R6 implants which led to them stripping away the gift of their precious bodily thetans.

And lo! These people exist to test the faith and try the true sons and daughters of Xenu with intolerence, litigation and harassment.

The battle we fight is a spiritual one. We fight not against flesh, but the powers and principalities of a rebel opposition to our beloved Galactic Confederacy. If we as a people can move beyond Scientology here on the planet Teegeeack, Xenu will come to collect us in his cosmic DC-8s and lead us beyond the threshold of this overpopulated galaxy to expand beyond the 26 stars currently in his domain to a glorious future.

These Scientologists are corrupted by their desire for personal super-powers and personal gain. We at the Sons of Xenu believe that humanity's true super-powers are collective and impersonal, ever-reverant to our father Xenu who art in the Andromeda cluster, psychedelic be his name.

Preach on, Brother Patrick! Our Lord Xenu is watching always, waiting for the day where he will return to us and throw down the oppressors, the pretenders, the orgs, and unite our thetans once more, leading us to a bright and prosperous future, immortal among the stars! :mad: Hail Xenu!

Bible Thumpers never stole a yacht, somebody's wife and $10,000?

But man, if they did... Christianity would look all kinds of badass!

Ah, but seriously, as crazy as some other religions sound, what with all the invisible voices telling people to read gold plates out of a top hat and start the new holy land in Rhodes Island, no religion sounds even half as crazy as Scientology. Especially when its godhead was a fat piece of shit nerd who couldn't write his way out of a nutsack. I might not find Christianity all that appealing, but at least The Bible is a semi-decent read. L. Ron couldn't write a fifth grade book report without getting an average grade.

Also, any religion founded on the idea that, "hey, y'know what's a great way to make easy money and power? start your own religion!" is a piece of shit religion. Any religion that requires you to drop thousands of dollars just to join is a piece of shit religion. Any religion that disguises its meaning from its followers until they're thoroughly brainwashed is a piece of shit religion. Or, fuck, wait, no, that's a cult. Any "religion" that has to hide itself from the public and its initiates is a fucking cult. Any "religion" with its own army and navy is a fucking cult.

Fuck Scientology, fuck Tom Cruise, and fuck anyone who's stupid enough to fall for that psychotic bullshit. I don't like most religions, but I fucking hate Scientology.

[Jack Zodiac]

Okay the last voice over is creepy but again I point to Christianity and say how is it all that different from Scientology?

I've never heard of anyone having to be "deprogrammed" to leave Christianity. And aside from the ridiculous fundamentalist Christians, I've never been creeped out, irritated by, or angered by a Christian talking about their religion.

Heh.

Although actually Xenu is a bad guy in their little story. Stripping away their thetans was his goal, not an accident. Apparently he liked to scoop them up in huge Space Planes and brainwash them by making them watch stuff Clockwork Orange style on big video screens (quite a trick when they had no bodies, but apparently thetans are real suckers), then dump the thetans in a volcano, which when it exploded scattered them all across the globe.

Boo hiss, Xenu! Dude, why'd ya have to do that? Its messing us up SO badly that most of us are several centuries further away from our Superpowers and Godhood than we might have otherwise been!!!

Wrong, neophyte! Brother Patrick is preaching the true gospel of Lord Xenu, galactic savior, who defied convention to rid the galaxy of its most evil sinners! And for his bravery, he was imprisoned for millions of years while his enemies made a sanctuary out of Earth! The time is quickly approaching when Lord Xenu will return and throw down these false leaders and lead us all to a brighter future! Join us, the Children of Xenu, and you will see this brave new world for yourself!

Philosophically I see where you are coming from. Both worship "imaginary" beings that control the bigger picture of the universe. Both can abuse people of faith by taking their money, and using their faith to further their "power." Etc. Etc.

But seriously. They talk crazy talk. Scientologists aren't just choosing to worship in a new and inventive way. They are living in some wacky alternate reality.

It isn't even that similar, philosophically. Christians and most religions may worship deities with magic powers, who've performed feats of impossibility like raising the dead and parting seas and all kinds of crazy shit, but Christianity and most other religions don't base their faith on those singular acts, but in the belief system defined by their parables and morals. Scientology, literally, tells its followers that they're inhabited by the souls of dead aliens and the only way they can get rid of them is by giving their church thousands of dollars and taking insane tests no psychologist would ever consider safe or healthy.

In crude terms, Christianity preaches some equally crazy stuff: we were absolved of our sins by a zombie and we should accept him as our savior, allow his soul into our hearts, and eat his body and drink his blood. Okay, pretty nutty, but it's an easily recognizable metaphor that's pliable within the religion itself. Scientology? Nope. You either believe it fully or you're an apostate. Fucking insane.

I agree. I'm not a Sociologist and believe in God if not Catholicism. But I still think that Tom's message of getting off your butt, helping people every way you can all the while of changing the world for the better is a good one.

And you can do all of that... without becoming a Scientologist. But by becoming a Scientologist, you have to completely subscribe to their insane teachings from their insane leader. But seriously, Tom Cruise preaches all kinds of crap about helping people, but what has Scientology done to help people that didn't turn a buck for them? Nothing I've heard of. I'm sure they've probably donated money to other organizations, but that's as much "helping" as it is a tax write off in their minds. If he means personally helping people who are troubled, that's not a religion or a system of faith or beliefs, that's being someone's friend. Or, shy of that, being someone's psychiatrist. Because when someone else helps someone for money, it's a crime against nature created by Hitler or Xenu himself! But when Scientology does it, it's a gift... that you have to pay for.

All I'm saying is that we are suppose to have religious tolerance and freedom in this country and I don't see it.

I tolerate every religion. I don't particularly like all of 'em, but they're just fine the way they are. What I can't tolerate are misleading, manipulative cults that prey on weak-minded people (and let's face it, guys, celebrities are pretty weak-minded) and use them for their own ends to sucker more people into their organization to build their power base and finances. Scientology is a dangerous cult, not a tolerable religion, and how they haven't been recognized for the insane criminal organization that they are is astounding. Really, I can't recall a time where someone told me Christians had infiltrated the FBI and IRS to destroy documents about members of the church and their tax records.

The example you used had people breaking the law. As goofy as I think Scientogist are the vast majority of them, including Tom Crusie, aren't breaking any laws. Nor are they hurting anybody. The first amendment has to be applied equally or not at all if it is to be fair and true.

The vast majority of them are mindless drones. The "important" ones have pulled some incredibly shifty and insanely illegal shit, from attempted murders and espionage bordering on treason to staging coups on foreign countries. What Tom Cruise is preaching is nice and all on the surface, but under the mask is a whole fuckin' lot of crazy that a lot of people don't seem to see in time. If he wanted to get away and preach his brand of awesomesauce to the masses as Cruiseism, great; but all he's doing now is luring people into a potentially dangerous cult.

[sk716]

Would it be wrong to admit I found the video inspirational.:o His basic message is sound and very motivational. And really how is this video different from a bible thumper's?

We need an intervention, STAT!!!

[sk716]

MAN!

That is one loony movie star!

edit: but Lester's right. You start shutting down churches for that sort of thing and you'll find your own favorite Supernatural Worship Object on the chopping block pretty quick.

There is a vast difference between a church and a cult.

[Dark Galaxy]

I

It isn't even that similar, philosophically. Christians and most religions may worship deities with magic powers, who've performed feats of impossibility like raising the dead and parting seas and all kinds of crazy shit, but Christianity and most other religions don't base their faith on those singular acts, but in the belief system defined by their parables and morals. Scientology, literally, tells its followers that they're inhabited by the souls of dead aliens and the only way they can get rid of them is by giving their church thousands of dollars and taking insane tests no psychologist would ever consider safe or healthy.

Oh, I hear ya. I'm not saying that I agree with Lester, just seeing where he was coming from. If people aren't familiar with all the slimy details of Scientology, it can seem way more black and white.


Fuck Scientology, fuck Tom Cruise, and fuck anyone who's stupid enough to fall for that psychotic bullshit. I don't like most religions, but I fucking hate Scientology.

Amen

[Spiffy]

Here's the poop on Xenu, for those who really feel like they need to know. :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenu

Xenu (also Xemu), pronounced /ˈziːnuː/, according to Scientology founder (and science fiction writer) L. Ron Hubbard, was the dictator of the "Galactic Confederacy" who, 75 million years ago, brought billions[1] of his people to Earth in DC-8-like spacecraft, stacked them around volcanoes and killed them using hydrogen bombs. Scientology holds that their essences remained, and that they form around people in modern times, causing them spiritual harm.[2][3] Members of the Church of Scientology widely deny or try to hide the Xenu story.
So I misremembered a tiny bit. I remembered the volcanoes and that he was the villain of the piece, but it was his OWN people he blew up in the volcano, not us Earth humans. Then their sticky little souls flew around the Earth and stuck to us like Krazy glue. Although I think there's something in there about how current Earthmen are only intelligent because of this process, otherwise we'd still be bone rattling apes.

Psychiatrists are evil, by the way, because they were the agents of Xenu who helped with the brainwashing.

[Sally Sensational]

So is it safe to assume that if we join the New Church of Xenu, headed by Father Jack and Brother Patrick, then we DON'T have to pay any money? Or take any crazy tests?

[Lester C.]

There is a new book out that claims that Tom Cruise is the second highest ranked Sociologist in the world, a charge that Tom denies.

Here is my question about the video. Why aren't we seeing it everywhere like we did when Tom jumped on Opera's couch.

[sk716]

There is a new book out that claims that Tom Cruise is the second highest ranked Sociologist in the world, a charge that Tom denies.

Here is my question about the video. Why aren't we seeing it everywhere like we did when Tom jumped on Opera's couch.

Because the "Church" of Scientology claims copyright infringement any time any video exposing them as the whack-jobs they are is aired/posted anywhere not controlled by the "Church" of Scientology.

[Jack Zodiac]

Oh, I hear ya. I'm not saying that I agree with Lester, just seeing where he was coming from. If people aren't familiar with all the slimy details of Scientology, it can seem way more black and white.

Yeah, in that respect, all religions are equally pretty crazy-sounding. Scientology just sounds extra-crazy. :p

So is it safe to assume that if we join the New Church of Xenu, headed by Father Jack and Brother Patrick, then we DON'T have to pay any money? Or take any crazy tests?

No, sir, ma'am! In fact, you get a free lunch! :D

There is a new book out that claims that Tom Cruise is the second highest ranked Sociologist in the world, a charge that Tom denies.

Here is my question about the video. Why aren't we seeing it everywhere like we did when Tom jumped on Opera's couch.

Did you watch the whole thing? I'd be embarrassed as hell if I belonged to a religion with a spokesperson that laughed insanely and apparently nothing. What's the source of the video, though? Anyone know? It looked like it came from some award show.

Because the "Church" of Scientology claims copyright infringement any time any video exposing them as the whack-jobs they are is aired/posted anywhere not controlled by the "Church" of Scientology.

And then there's that. :p

[Infra-Man]

What's the source of the video, though? Anyone know? It looked like it came from some award show.

According to the Daily Telegraph website in this article (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/01/16/wcruise216.xml):

The nine-minute video, set to the theme of his film Mission Impossible, was shown at a 2004 International Association of Scientologists meeting.

[Lester C.]

We need an intervention, STAT!!!

You going to send the fucking ferrets out aren't you. Eaten to death by glorified rodents is not the way I want to go.

[Sally Sensational]

You going to send the fucking ferrets out aren't you. Eaten to death by glorified rodents is not the way I want to go.

I'll take this one:

THEY ARE NOT RODENTS!

[sk716]

...
Did you watch the whole thing? I'd be embarrassed as hell if I belonged to a religion with a spokesperson that laughed insanely and apparently nothing. What's the source of the video, though? Anyone know? It looked like it came from some award show.

...

In lieu of Golden Globes awards speeches, our East Coasted sibling site posted a memorable video package, via Hollywood Interrupted, fêting messianic Scientology mouthpiece Tom Cruise as he accepted their 2005 Freedom Medal of Valor. Like most of Scientology's sacred babblings, the text was never meant to reach outside eyes; the video quickly disappeared from YouTube, soon to shake off from the temporary effects of the tranquilizing serum plunged into its neck and find itself buried alive beneath a patch of carefully attended petunias on the grounds of Gilman Hot Springs HQ.
src: http://defamer.com/344781/secret-tom-cruise-scientology-indoctrination-video-finally-hits-web-proves-he-is-even-crazier-than-we-ever-imagined

[Jack Zodiac]

Ah, thanks guys. The fact that no one outside of their crazy group was supposed to see all that crazy is even... crazier. :p

[Red Jack]

There is a vast difference between a church and a cult.

Not from the outside.

[Infra-Man]

Aren't there rumors that this video was leaked by either an investigative journalist or a former Scientologist?

[Sally Sensational]

Not from the outside.

Actually, very few churches have 10 foot constantine (sp) wire fences. And portholes for barrel rifles are few and far between on mainstream establishments.;)

[Lester C.]

I'll take this one:

THEY ARE NOT RODENTS!

They look like mutant freak demon rats.

[Jack Zodiac]

Actually, very few churches have 10 foot constantine (sp) wire fences. And portholes for barrel rifles are few and far between on mainstream establishments.;)

Although they'd certainly spruce up the Vatican!

[sk716]

You going to send the fucking ferrets out aren't you. Eaten to death by glorified rodents is not the way I want to go.


Why would I send in the ferrets? The Scientologists will do much worse:


http://www.xenu.net/archive/personal_story/paulette_cooper/
Before long, strange people were trying to gain access to my apartment. Around this same time, in the basement of the building, I discovered alligator clips on my phone wires - likely the remnants of a phone tap. Then my cousin - who was also short and slim like me, was there alone when a man arrived with a "flower delivery" for me. When she opened the door, the intruder pulled a gun out of the flowers and put it to her temple. Fortunately, the gun jammed, misfired or was empty. The man then began to choke her, and when she pulled away and screamed, he ran off. The police said afterward that they were mystified, because there appeared to be no motive.

I immediately moved to a doorman building. Not long after, some 300 of my neighbors were sent an anonymous smear letter about me. Among other things, the letter outrageously described me as a part-time prostitute and said that I had once sexually molested a 2- year old baby girl.


http://www.xenu-directory.net/victims/perkins1.html
Jeremy Perkins: A Scientology Family Tragedy
On March 13, 2003, Jeremy Perkins, a 28 year old untreated schizophrenic, stabbed his mother Elli 77 times. She bled to death on her bedroom floor. Jeremy is currently being held at Rochester Psychiatric Center, having been found not responsible for Elli's murder by reason of mental disease or defect.

Perkins, his mother and father, his sister, and her husband are all members of the Church of Scientology, a group that believes modern psychiatric medicine derives from an ancient alien civilization's plot to drug and enslave humanity. Scientologists like Tom Cruise vehemently and publicly oppose the pharmacological treatment of mental illness. Unfortunately, Scientology's own brand of therapy, called "auditing", is worthless.


http://www.xenu.net/archive/events/lisa_mcpherson/
On December 5, 1995, long time Scientologist Lisa McPherson, 36, was pronounced dead at New Port Richey Hospital, near Clearwater, Florida. McPherson's death followed two and a half weeks of forcible confinement in a room at Scientology's Fort Harrison Hotel in Clearwater, Florida. I won't attempt to fully recap all the facts of the case; these are readily available through various Lisa McPherson memorial pages on the web. Rather, I'd like to focus on and perhaps bring some insight to bear on the question of how anyone could have done what was obviously done to McPherson.

http://www.xenu-directory.net/documents/friend19911206.html
22. In addition to the trauma of the kidnapping and imprisonment, the Scientologists took away my privacy. In December 1989 and January 1990, I was spied upon constantly, 24 hours a day. My phone calls were monitored (when I had a phone in December); my comings and goings were reported on; and, of course, in January when I was completely imprisoned, every aspect of my life was under constant surveillance.

[Tobias March]

Although they'd certainly spruce up the Vatican!

I was there when I was a kid for a beatification ceremony...I think I remember the guards had us patted down, waved sensors over us and then let us enter their private nation state in the centre of Rome. As Mr. Hicks said about the Popemobile "there's faith in action".

[Sally Sensational]

Although they'd certainly spruce up the Vatican!

Nah, they don't need them at the Vatican, they have those sexy Swiss Guards with the HUGE battle-axes. Or are they pikes?

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e42/MihoshiK/SwissGuard.jpg

[Sabrinaset]

So I was driving home when all of a sudden a couple cars collided and everyone was near-dead! There was blood and severed body parts all over the place ... and my FIRST thought was, hey, I'm a doctor, I should try to help ... but then I realized that I'm not a Scientologist, and they're the only ones that CAN really help. So I just went home.

[Infra-Man]

Nah, they don't need them at the Vatican, they have those sexy Swiss Guards with the HUGE battle-axes. Or are they pikes?

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e42/MihoshiK/SwissGuard.jpg

So which character class is that in Final Fantasy Tactics?

[Tobias March]

Another Warren Ellis brainfart:

bad signal
WARREN ELLIS


It occurred to me today that Mormon politician Mitt Romney’s
candidacy is, in part, an experiment to see if America can
handle the idea of a figure of authority who also believes himself
to be wearing magic underpants.

If that's so, then I think you guys are twelve years away from a
Scientologist running for President.

And I think you know which Scientologist I mean.

You're welcome.

-- W

[Sally Sensational]

I don't think Romney belongs to the magic-underpants-wearing segment of the Mormon church. But I could be wrong.

Hey, we've got a president now who used to snort magic powder, why not follow that up with one in magic panties?

[Solaris]

The example you used had people breaking the law. As goofy as I think Scientogist are the vast majority of them, including Tom Crusie, aren't breaking any laws. Nor are they hurting anybody. The first amendment has to be applied equally or not at all if it is to be fair and true.

Lester, go back to the Scientology thread and find the links, and go read them. Not hurting anybody? Tell that to the suspiciously high number of people who've gone to their Florida hotel and ended up missing, or dead. Tell that to the woman they starved to death. Tell that to the author who wrote a critical book about them, who was harassed and got death threats. Tell that to the elderly widow who lost her home and all her savings, because of them.

Tell that to the IRS---who found Scientologists had infiltrated them, taking jobs expressly to alter records, to remove records on the "church" and on members. Tell that to other organizations they tried to infiltrate.

Les---these people aren't innocent loonies. They are a cult, they isolate recruits from family and friends and get their money, they threaten and harass people... and sometimes, more... and worse.

And yes, they have special "celebrity centers"---the biggest being in Hollywood, but they have others, including one in DC---where the "elite" are catered to, pampered, and never allowed to see the dirty side of the shop. That's because they know these "leaders" and "role models", in embracing the "faith," can do far more to recruit the rank and file than *they* ever could.

Just go read the sites, Les. I promise you---it IS a cult... and a very nasty one.

PS---And several respected authors (with longterm, good standing) in Science Fiction have stated unequivocally that they themselves heard L Ron say at various functions and parties, that the easiest way to make a million dollars is to start a religion. (IIRC, one was Warren Ellis. And other Theodore Sturgeon.)

[Jack Zodiac]

I was there when I was a kid for a beatification ceremony...I think I remember the guards had us patted down, waved sensors over us and then let us enter their private nation state in the centre of Rome. As Mr. Hicks said about the Popemobile "there's faith in action".

Well, I can't say I blame him. Even if I loved the crap outta God and believed in Heaven, I wouldn't wanna be in any rush to get there. :p Plus, how fuckin' awesome is it having your own "You-mobile?"

Nah, they don't need them at the Vatican, they have those sexy Swiss Guards with the HUGE battle-axes. Or are they pikes?

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e42/MihoshiK/SwissGuard.jpg

Either's fine. Doesn't matter what you're holding, so long as it's sharp and you're dressed like that! :D

So I was driving home when all of a sudden a couple cars collided and everyone was near-dead! There was blood and severed body parts all over the place ... and my FIRST thought was, hey, I'm a doctor, I should try to help ... but then I realized that I'm not a Scientologist, and they're the only ones that CAN really help. So I just went home.

Yeah, I thought it was funny that I saw this right after your incident the other day, and I though, "shit, I hope Bree isn't a Scientologist!"

Another Warren Ellis brainfart:

bad signal
WARREN ELLIS


It occurred to me today that Mormon politician Mitt Romney’s
candidacy is, in part, an experiment to see if America can
handle the idea of a figure of authority who also believes himself
to be wearing magic underpants.

If that's so, then I think you guys are twelve years away from a
Scientologist running for President.

And I think you know which Scientologist I mean.

You're welcome.

-- W

Oh, man, I don't think there's any way in hell Cruise could ever seriously run for President. And shame on Ellis for even considering something so crazy and evil!

I don't think Romney belongs to the magic-underpants-wearing segment of the Mormon church. But I could be wrong.

Hey, we've got a president now who used to snort magic powder, why not follow that up with one in magic panties?

I don't think he is, either, or if he is he's really quiet about it. Either way, as crazy as some Mormon beliefs are, nothing shines as bright as the crazy bream from the Scientology mothership.

[sk716]

Two more for Lester:

http://theunfunnytruth.ytmnd.com/

"I have taken what 1 consider to be the most expedient way out of my present predicament. I harbor no resentment against anyone, except the Church of Scientology. They have a great deal to do with my demise. To play with people's defense mechanisms in the manner that they do is a criminal thing at best. l hope they can be outlawed." -- Suicide note by James Hester

[tangentman]

Severely OT: Sol, thanks for the awesome info you forwarded! I think the game will benefit TREMENDOUSLY from it! :D Now, I'll just need your revised character sheet whenever you finish it. We're only 3 posts into Episode 3: "Four Queens", so don't be afraid to jump in when you're ready. :)

[Solaris]

Severely OT: Sol, thanks for the awesome info you forwarded! I think the game will benefit TREMENDOUSLY from it! :D Now, I'll just need your revised character sheet whenever you finish it. We're only 3 posts into Episode 3: "Four Queens", so don't be afraid to jump in when you're ready. :)


Um... I'm confused, do you need another copy of the sheet?


Oh, and the char pic is already up; got the confirm from them today (see 2nd email). Let's pick this up in email, okay? Don't want to derail the thread any further. :D (And did you clean out your PM's?)

[Night Swordsman]

I need to ask a SERIOUS question,on a subject i normally DO NOT discuss on internet forumns,but this seems to be the best,quickest,and most direct place to find the awnser.

Is Scientology a Legally Recognized Religion in the United States,and does it recieve all the benefits and privilages other relgions do?

[Sabrinaset]

Maybe Lester is right about Cruise. After all, how could ANY woman resist a man who jumps on a couch, marries his daughter, and wants to hook you up to a machine which will test you for thetans and will try to find out how much influence Xenu has over you?

I just hope Adrian Paul doesn't hear about this.

[Jack Zodiac]

I need to ask a SERIOUS question,on a subject i normally DO NOT discuss on internet forumns,but this seems to be the best,quickest,and most direct place to find the awnser.

Is Scientology a Legally Recognized Religion in the United States,and does it recieve all the benefits and privilages other relgions do?

Yes, Scientology is a recognized, tax-exempt religion. In America, at least. Other countries are smart enough to recognize it for what it is: a cult or a company.

Maybe Lester is right about Cruise. After all, how could ANY woman resist a man who jumps on a couch, marries his daughter, and wants to hook you up to a machine which will test you for thetans and will try to find out how much influence Xenu has over you?

I just hope Adrian Paul doesn't hear about this.

Brilliant! To combat the celeb-appeal of Cruise, we'll recruit Adrian Paul into the Children of Xenu! :D

[Solaris]

I need to ask a SERIOUS question,on a subject i normally DO NOT discuss on internet forumns,but this seems to be the best,quickest,and most direct place to find the awnser.

Is Scientology a Legally Recognized Religion in the United States,and does it recieve all the benefits and privilages other relgions do?

Yes it is, yes it does---there are even scientology-marked headstones in Arlington Cemetary. And yeah, they pay no taxes.

However, some other countries have NOT recognized them---including Germany, and France is about to the point of labeling them a "cult". First time I've cheered the French in a while. ;) :D

[Red Jack]

Hey, nobody's saying the stuff isn't wacko jacko. It's just sort of amusing to watch the older siblings, each of whom has done fantastically horrible things to spread and preserve the faith, be down their nose at the new kid.

[Sabrinaset]

France is about to the point of labeling them a "cult". First time I've cheered the French in a while. ;) :D

France is a hotbed of Thetan activity.

[Indigo Al]

In response to the Warren Ellis post, I will say that if I had no other choice between a Scientologist and a Mormon for President, all other things being equal, I would trust a Mormon slightly more.

[Night Swordsman]

Jack and Solaris,thank you for the awnser.

[Tobias March]

France is a hotbed of Thetan activity.

Vive la France

[Jack Zodiac]

Hey, nobody's saying the stuff isn't wacko jacko. It's just sort of amusing to watch the older siblings, each of whom has done fantastically horrible things to spread and preserve the faith, be down their nose at the new kid.

Yeah, really, very few religions can claim to be pristine, either today or throughout history, but for only being around for fifty years, it feels like Scientology is doing everything it fuckin' can to catch up.

Jack and Solaris,thank you for the awnser.

No prob'm!

[CutterMike]

(...)
Especially when its godhead was a fat piece of shit nerd who couldn't write his way out of a nutsack.
(...).

...Actually, in all fairness, I have to say that I rather enjoyed his "Doc Methuselah" space opera stories.

I mean, he was no "Doc" Smith orJack Williamson, but he COULD write an entertaining bit of silly brain-candy, back in the day.

I'm just sayin' is all...

[CutterMike]

There is a new book out that claims that Tom Cruise is the second highest ranked Sociologist in the world, a charge that Tom denies.

Here is my question about the video. Why aren't we seeing it everywhere like we did when Tom jumped on Opera's couch.

"The Tonight Show", I believe.

[CutterMike]

Nah, they don't need them at the Vatican, they have those sexy Swiss Guards with the HUGE battle-axes. Or are they pikes?

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e42/MihoshiK/SwissGuard.jpg

Yeah, but which one is the caption talking about, the one in the stripes or the one in the pink beachcombers?

I see a LOT of fashion accidents driving off the cliff there!

(...and they're called halberds.)

[Nick Soapdish]

Any religion when it first starts out is extremely freaky when judged by other longer standing religions. A couple thousand years back if you would have told someone that there was this Yeshua person claiming that not only did he come back from the dead, but he was in fact the son of god and you need to believe in him in order to get into heaven you'd think he was nuts too.

All I'm saying is that we are suppose to have religious tolerance and freedom in this country and I don't see it.

I think that one might be allowed a bit more skepticism when the founder of the religion says that he thinks that founding a religion is the best way to get rich.

I would like to very respectfully point out that religious institutions change over time and are no longer constrained or ruled by the tenets of the people who have found them. For instance just because the bible was once used to endorse slavery, it doesn't mean that modern Chirstans are for slavery.

I'm not sure that you can argue that the statements by the founder of the cult (going up to nearly his death and he was involved with CoS until his death) are not representative of their beliefs.

Didn't Tom's talk about SPs worry you at all?

I need to ask a SERIOUS question,on a subject i normally DO NOT discuss on internet forumns,but this seems to be the best,quickest,and most direct place to find the awnser.

Is Scientology a Legally Recognized Religion in the United States,and does it recieve all the benefits and privilages other relgions do?

Yes it is, yes it does---there are even scientology-marked headstones in Arlington Cemetary. And yeah, they pay no taxes.

However, some other countries have NOT recognized them---including Germany, and France is about to the point of labeling them a "cult". First time I've cheered the French in a while. ;) :D

That's what they spent all that time in the IRS offices for. Not to mention spending $30 M in lawsuits.

...Actually, in all fairness, I have to say that I rather enjoyed his "Doc Methuselah" space opera stories.

I mean, he was no "Doc" Smith orJack Williamson, but he COULD write an entertaining bit of silly brain-candy, back in the day.

I'm just sayin' is all...

Doc Methuselah? Are you referring to Lazarus Long, the Robert A. Heinlein character?

I've only read one of L. Ron's books - Battlefield Earth. And it is the worst book that I've ever read all of. I finished it because I'd heard that it was a classic and I was expecting it to finally get better or something revolutionary to happen. The movie was better than the book if that says anything. (Great MST3K flick, too.)

[DaeJi]

I think the difference between a religion and a cult is that a true religion is about truly making peoples' lives better and about spreading a message to everyone. True religions also tend to be free, and people are allowed to learn it's messages and then take from it what they will. True, a lot of times organized religion can be pretty nutty, but the core is always there and anyone is welcomed to learn from them.

A cult is about helping a few people benefit off of the suffering of others. And any "religion" (cult) that requires you to actually buy their secrets is more a business than a "religion" (cult).

[The Xenos]

I sent this to a friend and he replied with a link of a cam copy of an orgientation vid. Link in the txt file below.

If you thought the Cruise video was creepy....

Shit. This is creepier than some Jack Chick comics or those crazy televangelists.

[singoalla]

It IS! It's a test by the almighty and benevolent warlord Xenu.

He gave some people defective R6 implants which led to them stripping away the gift of their precious bodily thetans.

And lo! These people exist to test the faith and try the true sons and daughters of Xenu with intolerence, litigation and harassment.

The battle we fight is a spiritual one. We fight not against flesh, but the powers and principalities of a rebel opposition to our beloved Galactic Confederacy. If we as a people can move beyond Scientology here on the planet Teegeeack, Xenu will come to collect us in his cosmic DC-8s and lead us beyond the threshold of this overpopulated galaxy to expand beyond the 26 stars currently in his domain to a glorious future.

These Scientologists are corrupted by their desire for personal super-powers and personal gain. We at the Sons of Xenu believe that humanity's true super-powers are collective and impersonal, ever-reverant to our father Xenu who art in the Andromeda cluster, psychedelic be his name.

(Ahem. This is a carry over from the Scientology thread.)


Oh Great Noodly Appendage, Oh Blue Orbiting Tea Pot, give me strength to resist the lure of Scientologys Shiny Toothed Mascot with Lazor Eye Beams, for he is alluring and... shiny... and doth make a convincing argument of His Scientifickal Capabilities of Saving people from Car Wrecks.

[singoalla]

What Tom means, although maybe they don't want him saying it straight out to intro-level Scientology recruits being drawn in by him, is that only Scientologists have Superpowers.

That's right. Superpowers.

If you dig through ALL the crap, that's what all the insane Xenu and clearing and e-meter and auditing and thetan stuff is supposed to lead them to. Superpowers. Oh, and beyond that, Godhood. Yes. Individual Godhood.

In a way, talking about this on a comic book forum is appropriate... right?

I want to be a God too. I want to be a Superwoman God. With Lazor Eye Beams. And Perfect Shiny Toothes. Darnit, sign me up man!

[singoalla]

Another Warren Ellis brainfart:

bad signal
WARREN ELLIS


It occurred to me today that Mormon politician Mitt Romney’s
candidacy is, in part, an experiment to see if America can
handle the idea of a figure of authority who also believes himself
to be wearing magic underpants.

If that's so, then I think you guys are twelve years away from a
Scientologist running for President.

And I think you know which Scientologist I mean.

You're welcome.

-- W

No one can put the Fear of God into people like Warren Ellis. Except maybe God.

[sk716]

I sent this to a friend and he replied with a link of a cam copy of an orgientation vid. Link in the txt file below.

If you thought the Cruise video was creepy....

Shit. This is creepier than some Jack Chick comics or those crazy televangelists.

The manipulation at the end of that is . . .

You know what, I don't even have the words.

[JeffreyWKramer]

There is a vast difference between a church and a cult.

Hm, yes and no. Essentially, churches and denominations are simply cults which have been successful enough to last, become generally accepted and develop some degree of history and tradition. Christianity started as a cult, more or less. So did the Mormons (and they haven't moved far from that at all).

Mind you, Scientology certainly is a cult, and it's ideas are batshit crazy, but they aren't inherently any more dumb than the ideas underlying more mainstream relilgions. Those other faiths are simply more familiar to us and have more permeated the larger culture.

[JeffreyWKramer]

PS---And several respected authors (with longterm, good standing) in Science Fiction have stated unequivocally that they themselves heard L Ron say at various functions and parties, that the easiest way to make a million dollars is to start a religion. (IIRC, one was Warren Ellis. And other Theodore Sturgeon.)

I think you're off about Warren Ellis, as the time in question was long enough ago that Warren would have been either not born yet, or a very young child. Harlan Ellison, however, has written extensively about the origins of Scientology and his discussions with L Ron as he was coming up with the idea for his big scam.

[Jack Zodiac]

I sent this to a friend and he replied with a link of a cam copy of an orgientation vid. Link in the txt file below.

If you thought the Cruise video was creepy....

Shit. This is creepier than some Jack Chick comics or those crazy televangelists.

Nice. No one every looks on Megaupload for anything other than porn! Perfect place to hide a Scientology video! If only someone had put the video of Tom Cruise claiming he helped NYC firefighters after 9/11 (http://thesuperficial.com/2008/01/tom_cruise_saves_new_york_afte.php) on Megaupload, maybe we'd all be allowed to see it now.

Hm, yes and no. Essentially, churches and denominations are simply cults which have been successful enough to last, become generally accepted and develop some degree of history and tradition. Christianity started as a cult, more or less. So did the Mormons (and they haven't moved far from that at all).

Mind you, Scientology certainly is a cult, and it's ideas are batshit crazy, but they aren't inherently any more dumb than the ideas underlying more mainstream relilgions. Those other faiths are simply more familiar to us and have more permeated the larger culture.

Good point. Forever ago, Jews and Christians would stone people in public, which is a damn sight worse than brainwashing people today. But in today's society, shit like that isn't just unacceptable, it's illegal. So when the leader of a cult, and I use "cult" here as a derogatory term for "piece of shit religion," because like you said, all religions are technically cults; when the leader of a cult declares that it's alright to destroy the lives of anyone who oppose them through any means necessary, that's unacceptable. And illegal. And I'm glad other countries are taking the entire organization to task for its actions, because we can't just do that in America. Not so long as we recognize it as a religion.

I think you're off about Warren Ellis, as the time in question was long enough ago that Warren would have been either not born yet, or a very young child. Harlan Ellison, however, has written extensively about the origins of Scientology and his discussions with L Ron as he was coming up with the idea for his big scam.

Yeah, Ellis wasn't born yet. Ellison, though, was there the night L. Ron Hubbard decided that the easiest way to make and keep money was to start your own religion. He even took a shot at his own fan base and said that Hubbard was guaranteed to succeed because "science fiction fans will believe anything." Yep. Granted, Ellison's a mouthy jerkoff most of the time, but still, what does he gain to lie about Scientology?

[Charles RB]

Okay the last voice over is creepy but again I point to Christianity and say how is it all that different from Scientology?

In modern Christianity, outside of extremist fringe denominations, they don't:

* Charge people money to be a member and use their spiritual services.
* Cover up the full details and truths of Christianity to people who aren't yet fully indoctrinated.
* Don't litigate, harrass, spy on and attempt to destroy critics & journalists and haven't infiltrated the FBI with intent to destroy records of Christianity investigations.
* Don't have their own paramilitary organisation running things (http://xenu.net/archive/so/), with its own private gulags. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rehabilitation_Project_Force)

[Jack Zodiac]

Well, to be fair, the Vatican has its army of holy ninjas and "special Fathers" to defend their holy city, which is much like having a special compound, but still... :p

[Charles RB]

Although actually Xenu is a bad guy in their little story.

All lies! The Sons of Xenu recognise the truth - those aliens he killed were evil criminals! And then he went on to invent cinema, all major religions and psychiatry to help us! Xenu is truly a great and benevolent ruler who wanted to ensure people were helped and would have mass entertainment and live free from harm in societies where multiple ways of thinking would co-exist.

We at the Sons of Xenu believe such things should be applauded!

Sometimes something labeled a religion is not a religion, but a cult.

And in the UK and Germany, we don't even consider it (legally) a religion and in Greece they actively threw it out after the courts found it guilty of criminal acts and having aims that were illegal & against the public order (http://xenu.net/archive/greece/). Also, the Greek branch deliberately had the police's anti-cult department shut down.

The great thing about the Greek case is we can now say the Church DOES break the law and IS opposed to democratic order & freedoms.

And all that stuff about SPs concerns people who are disbelievers and "negative influences" who have to be opposed or forcibly removed.

Yes, I was quite disturbed at the bit where he said "spectators have be brought into the game or removed from the stadium", smiling as he did so.

The Sons of Xenu would like to point out that spectators are meant to be in the stadium without being in the game. Removing spectators means saying nobody can see the game except for the players - and how then can anyone know what the events of the game and the overall score was? What sort of person wants to have a big game but doesn't want anyone he can't control watching what happens?

The Sons of Xenu are in favour of spectators, and also that man who walks around the stadium selling food!


Oh Great Noodly Appendage, Oh Blue Orbiting Tea Pot

The Sons of Xenu welcome our Flying Spaghettian cousins and applaud their works! We stand united against the TRUE enemy - the Judean People's Front! :evilangry

[JeffreyWKramer]

Granted, Ellison's a mouthy jerkoff most of the time, but still, what does he gain to lie about Scientology?

In fact, his discussing and writing about the origins of Scientology have gotten him a lot of flak from Scientologists. They've tried to force websites to remove some of Ellison's writings on the subject, and I think they've even tried to sue him on occasion - which demonstrates how clueless they are, because if anyone knows how to sue better than the Scientologists, it's probably Ellison.

The funny thing is, whenever he has written about Hubbard himself, Ellison has talked about him rather kindly; he was clearly rather fold of the pre-cult-leader SF writer Ron Hubbard.

[Jack Zodiac]

In fact, his discussing and writing about the origins of Scientology have gotten him a lot of flak from Scientologists. They've tried to force websites to remove some of Ellison's writings on the subject, and I think they've even tried to sue him on occasion - which demonstrates how clueless they are, because if anyone knows how to sue better than the Scientologists, it's probably Ellison.

That's how Scientology reacts to any opposition. Well, that and death threats and life-ruining litigation like they did with Paulette Cooper.

The funny thing is, whenever he has written about Hubbard himself, Ellison has talked about him rather kindly; he was clearly rather fold of the pre-cult-leader SF writer Ron Hubbard.

Yeah, what I've read of his history with Hubbard, it sounds like a lot of them (pulp science fiction writers) were really good friends. In fact, I think I read that the night Ellison heard Hubbard talk about starting his own religion, it was among a bunch of other sci-fi writers.

[Sarah Beach]

Yeah, what I've read of his history with Hubbard, it sounds like a lot of them (pulp science fiction writers) were really good friends. In fact, I think I read that the night Ellison heard Hubbard talk about starting his own religion, it was among a bunch of other sci-fi writers.

In SF fandom circles regarding the founding of the "religion" the story goes that LRH made a bet with (I think) Robert Heinlein and Isaac Asimov (Asimov is always part of the story), that he would pay them a certain (annual) amount if he did not have X number of followers and money by the end of 10 years. He apparently fell just short of the number at the 10 year mark. People would ask Asimov, years later, if he indeed was getting a royalty from LRH as a result of that bet. The story goes that Asimov would smile and neither confirm nor deny the story. The speculation ran (and continues to run) highly in favor of the story being true.

But it's never actually been confirmed or denied. By anyone on either side. As far as I know. (I could be wrong.)

[Sean Walsh]

No one can put the Fear of God into people like Warren Ellis. Except maybe God.

If God was real, even He would fear Warren Ellis. :D

[Jack Zodiac]

In SF fandom circles regarding the founding of the "religion" the story goes that LRH made a bet with (I think) Robert Heinlein and Isaac Asimov (Asimov is always part of the story), that he would pay them a certain (annual) amount if he did not have X number of followers and money by the end of 10 years. He apparently fell just short of the number at the 10 year mark. People would ask Asimov, years later, if he indeed was getting a royalty from LRH as a result of that bet. The story goes that Asimov would smile and neither confirm nor deny the story. The speculation ran (and continues to run) highly in favor of the story being true.

But it's never actually been confirmed or denied. By anyone on either side. As far as I know. (I could be wrong.)

Huh, I don't think I've heard that one, but I wonder- does anyone know of any other science fiction writers besides Ellison who were vocal about L. Ron's goofy idea to create his own religion?

If God was real, even He would fear Warren Ellis. :D

You guys are way, way off base. Warren Ellis is God.

[Infra-Man]

Don't know if anyone else has pointed this out already, but Gawker has more videos from the Scientology Award Ceremony from which the original nine-minute video came:

http://gawker.com/345563/tom-cruise-uncut-the-freedom-medal-award-ceremony

EDIT:
This includes the Tom Cruise 9/11 video that was nixed from YouTube and appeared on The Superficial.

[Tobias March]

Honestly I can't watch anymore. See the thing for me is the reaction to Tom Cruise...I don't honestly believe he's a loon. But the public are so used to seeing him calm and confident, secure in knowing what he's saying (because it's scripted) that his scientology pronouncements are disturbing. We see now that...he's not terribly bright. In fact he's a bit thick.

Scientology targets celebrities for membership because they lend the group recognition and are easy recruits due to being exceptionally insecure. Think about it - your life, if you allow it to be, is conditioned by the words other people put into your mouth and how consistently and reassuringly attractive you are.

[Jack Zodiac]

Don't know if anyone else has pointed this out already, but Gawker has more videos from the Scientology Award Ceremony from which the original nine-minute video came:

http://gawker.com/345563/tom-cruise-uncut-the-freedom-medal-award-ceremony

EDIT:
This includes the Tom Cruise 9/11 video that was nixed from YouTube and appeared on The Superficial.

Man, Miscavige is fucking nuts. That's some real kooky ranting. Also, their "pat on the back" for revealing the "truth" about psychology and pharmaceuticals was nice and crazy.

[Sally Sensational]

http://www.scientomogy.com/the_bridge.php
Another film - this time a dramatization. Interesting.

To me, the ultimate proof of the difference between a cult like Scientology and a church is the level of secrecy involved. If you're withholding information, especially from your members, then there's something very, very wrong. If the difference between what you tell one group of members and another is extreme, that's another problem. The most obvious symptom, though, is requiring your members to separate themselves from nonmembers - specifically family - and lie to them about what you are doing and where and why.

Watching The Bridge reminding me of watching the docudrama about Jonestown with George Eads. Some pretty similar stuff going on here - just no obvious koolaid.

[Sarah Beach]

Watching The Bridge reminding me of watching the docudrama about Jonestown with George Eads. Some pretty similar stuff going on here - just no obvious koolaid.

Huh? George Eads? Or are you thinking of the one with Powers Booth as Jim Jones?

[Jack Zodiac]

Even Freemasons aren't as secretive about their ceremonies and ranks as Scientologists.

[sk716]

...




The Sons of Xenu welcome our Flying Spaghettian cousins and applaud their works! We stand united against the TRUE enemy - the Judean People's Front! :evilangry

I thought it was the People's Front of Judea?

[Cthulhudrew]

You know what I'd do if I were an alien race bent on one day conquering another planet?

I'd create a wonky religion that incorporated alien elements into it, and let it germinate among the populace for a while, indoctrinating its people into the way. Thus, once I was ready to actually begin the conquest, I'd be able to pull at the heartstrings of (hopefully) large swaths of the populace, and make the coup that much more bloodless.

Heck, it might even be good to set my sights on people who are in the public eye, and can wield some influence in the forum of popular culture.

(Of course, I don't personally believe in aliens- at least not the sort who are intelligent, have some kind of faster-than-light travel capability, and who might have any possible interest in a backwater planet like the Earth, located in the remoteness of the Milky Way galaxy, millions of light years from the next closest galaxy, and quite possibly much further than that from any other galaxies containing intelligent life.

But that's what I'd do if I were an alien bent on planetary conquest. Of course, I'd probably also do "drive bys," joyriding to backwater planets and wearing deely-boppers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deely_bopper) just to screw with the hicks, while having a good laugh watching the news reports on those nutters though my uplink to local satellite feeds. But then, I guess I'm just whacky that way.)

[Jack Zodiac]

That sounds like a Reach plan. :p How awesome would a year of Blue Beetle comics making fun of Scientology have been?

[GCom]

No Mongol has ever been a Scientologist. We know better.

That is all.


With Tolerance For Knowing We Can't Eat Or Ride Scientology..

GCom

[Jack Zodiac]

Wow. Sally, thanks for that "The Bridge" movie. I'm only halfway through it and it's pretty insane.

[Dark Galaxy]

The manipulation at the end of that is . . .

You know what, I don't even have the words.


Yeah that left me with both an incredulous feeling, and feeling sick to my stomach.

How in the world can people not see right through that bullshit? It's amazing.

[Charles RB]

I sent this to a friend and he replied with a link of a cam copy of an orgientation vid.

That IS creepy. "That's what Ron's material contains - the Answers! *vapid smile*" Brrrr.

I also like how there's a Hostile Dead Universe opening, but don't worry! Scientology is there to help with uplifting music! (and Scientology gets associated with Earth...) And look how it's a worldwide thing with fancy buildings along with that music and organisations and they all want to be your FRIENDS while playing that music - isn't it grand, audience? Much usage of bandwagon tactics and presented glory, also annoying music.

Oh, and now we have it presenting itself on a personal level - demonisation of "materialists" and scientists and such opponents - linking Scientology to established religions - mentioning how it's been declared a bonofide religion in multiple countries but not mentioning how it isn't it others, as well as using a quote from a German court (where they're not a religion), mispresentation.

And now L. Ron being presented by imagery as Buddha and Christ like; they're also repeating discredited falsehoods about his accomplishments & saying he was uber-famous in the 40s to make him sound impressive & awesome; and presenting him as this caring kindly figure - oh, and a conspiracy theory to demonize opponents of dianetics and also present the government as wanting to CONTROL YOUR MIND, thus cutting off critics & Hubbard's criminal record and setting up Scientology & Dianetics as Our Only Hope. And then the Big List of books we need to buy to help us and get into the "Adventure", coming right after mentioning how they're revolutionary bestsellers and will make us happy and we'll "want" them - misrep and bandwagon!

And that "The Bridge To Total Freedom" graphic on their Path-Thru-Scientology bit - veeeery blatant. Then we have personal appeal by saying how in the Orgs we'll meet new friends - heroic music playing when they mention the Office of L Ron and higher-ups - and the direct addressing of us when mentioning how L Ron has ensured "you" get the benefits of his works - and creation of a "false urgency" by presenting Scientology as key to "man's future".

And all throughout, personal appeals with the guy taking happily right at "us" and mentions of Scientology being for "you", creating a 'direct' personal link.

I'm only halfway through and I'm already seeing a horde of blatant, manipulative techniques and general creepiness.

That Propaganda course at Uni paid off!

[sk716]

Woo boy. Can you say whack job? I knew that you could.

L. Ron Hubbard and the Occult
By Jon Atack

[....]

John Whiteside Parsons, usually known as Jack, first met Hubbard at a party in August 1945. When his terminal leave from the US Navy began, on Dec 6th, 1945, Hubbard went straight to Parsons' house in Pasadena, and took up residence in a trailer in the yard. Parsons was a young chemist who had helped set up Jet Propulsion Laboratories and was one of the innovators of solid fuel for rockets. Parsons was besotted with Crowley's Sex Magick, and had recently become head of the Agape Lodge of the Church of Thelema in Los Angeles. The Agape Lodge was an aspect of the Ordo Templi Orientis, the small international group headed by Aleister Crowley.

Parsons' girlfriend (Sara Northrup) soon transferred her affection to Hubbard. With her, Hubbard and Parsons formed a business partnership, as a consequence of which Parsons lost most of his money to Hubbard. However, before Hubbard ran away with the loot, he and Parsons participated in magical rituals which have received great attention among contemporary practitioners.

Parsons and Hubbard together performed their own version of the secret eighth degree ritual (17) of the Ordo Templi Orientiis in January 1946. The ritual is called "concerning the secret marriage of gods with men" or "the magical masturbation" and is usually a homosexual ritual. The purpose of this ritual was to attract a women willing to participate in the next stage of Hubbard and Parsons' Sex Magick.

Hubbard and Parsons were attempting the most daring magical feat imaginable. They were trying to incarnate the Scarlet Woman described in the Book of Revelation as "Babylon the Great, the Mother of Harlot and Abominations of the Earth...drunken with the blood of saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus." (18). During the rituals, Parsons described Babalon as "mother of anarchy and abominations." The woman who they believed had answered their call, Majorie Cameron, joined in with their sexual rituals in March 1946.

Parsons used a recording machine to keep a record of his ceremonies. He also kept Crowley informed by letter. The correspondence still exists. Crowley wrote to his deputy in New York "I get fairly frantic when I contemplate the idiocy of these louts."

[....]

[Charles RB]

Oh GOD, the bit of psychiatry in this vid - we have outright demonisation, the auditing guy presented as Truly Caring about the damage it does to people, and psychiatry linked to Big Evil Guv'mint thing. Then we get told how great Scientology & Dianetics are by this nice calm man and "only a raving looney" would criticise it - you don't want to be a raving looney, do you? (Oh look, personal appeal to people's egos & self-esteems, "YOU'RE not like THOSE guys, right?"...)

And auditing isn't being explained at all, but there's upbeat music playing and personal appeals to "YOU" and "YOUR" gains with happy people being shown. There was a 1997 Conservative Party poster showing Tony Blair with evil demon eyes saying "NEW LABOUR NEW DANGER" and that was still more subtle than this...

[Charles RB]

And now I'm up to the auditing schools - so we have glorification, we have Nice Friendly People, auditing classes linked to personal success, and if you're one you're in the Special Club that get to see Special Films By Ron! (Appealing to the desire to be in the "In" crowd, to the point where they're almost saying "Excelsior!")

...and the film just mentioned triumphantly that it has its own Justice System for internal matters THAT IS NOT A GOOD THING, GUY!

[Charles RB]

Now they're blackmailing me at the end - I am at the threshold of my next trillion years and if I don't choose Scientology, I will shiver in the darkness and shut out tomorrow. 'That's the way it really is.' I have the choice to walk out and ignoring them I am free to do so, just I am free to "dive off a bridge or blow your own brains out" - "it's stupid, but you have a choice".

This is the biggest false-dilemma since "Vote Johnson for President or DIE IN NUCLEAR WAR!".

[Jack Zodiac]

Finished "The Bridge." Awesome fucking ending! :D That was made by an eighteen year old? Even for a no-budget movie, it was fucking awesome.

[Lester C.]

Okay you guys convinced me. I have no problem with nutball religions, as every United States citizen has the right to worship as they see fit so long as no laws are broken. I do have a problem with people breaking the law and hurting others no matter how noble they perceive their actions to be. All atrocities need to be investigated and punished if they can find the bastards that are culpable in the horrible crimes described in various posts in this thread.

[Charles RB]

Shit, someone was convinced to change their mind in an Internet debate?! There IS hope for the 'net! :o

[Laughing Mask]

i just found this funny parody.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=4PDv0fMyzYA

[Tobias March]

i just found this funny parody.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=4PDv0fMyzYA

That's very good. Duly yoinked.

[Sarah Beach]

I'm going to have to watch that parody when I get home and have sound. Heh. I can see the guy is mimicing El Toothy rather well, in physical movement.

[Charles RB]

Wow. Sally, thanks for that "The Bridge" movie. I'm only halfway through it and it's pretty insane.

Just finished it. And he was only 18 when he made it?!

There's not even any mention of the film on the guy's website, presumably due to the Scientology threats. So I'm very glad it's online. I remember when the Catholic Church was trying to discourage people from seeing The Magdeline Sisters, but they still didn't force the film to be removed from existence.

I fully support it being online.

[Sally Sensational]

Huh? George Eads? Or are you thinking of the one with Powers Booth as Jim Jones?

Mea Culpa. The actor was Rick Roberts. The film is called Jonestown: Paradise Lost and is a History Channel docudrama.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1090665/

[Cthulhudrew]

FWIW, as loony as I think the Scientologists are (and as much of a dangerous cult I think it is), I do agree with them on the issue of psychologists. Not to the extremes they go (or at least Tom does in his videos), but I firmly believe that we are an overly medicated society here in this country at least, and that prescribing drugs for treatment has become far too commonplace and a panacea for what are real (and sometimes not real) issues that should otherwise be addressed.

[neutronjockey]

The head of the Galactic Federation (76 planets around larger
stars visible from here) (founded 95,000,000 years ago, very
space opera) solved overpopulation (250 billion or so per planet,
178 billion on average) by mass implanting. He caused people to
be brought to Teegeeack (Earth) and put an H-Bomb on the
principal volcanos (Incident II) and then the Pacific area ones
were taken in boxes to Hawaii and the Atlantic area ones to
Las Palmas and there "packaged".

His name was Xenu. He used renegades. Various misleading
data by means of circuits etc. was placed in the implants.

When through with his crime loyal officers (to the people)
captured him after six years of battle and put him in an
electronic mountain trap where he still is. "They" are gone.
The place (Confederation) has since been a desert. The length
and brutality of it all was such that this Confederation never
recovered. The implant is calculated to kill (by pneumonia etc)
anyone who attempts to solve it. This liability has been
dispensed with by my tech development.

One can freewheel through the implant and die unless it is
approached as precisely outlined. The "freewheel" (auto-running
on and on) lasts too long, denies sleep etc and one dies. So be
careful to do only Incidents I and II as given and not plow
around and fail to complete one thetan at a time.

In December 1967 I knew someone had to take the plunge. I did
and emerged very knocked out, but alive. Probably the only one
ever to do so in 75,000,000 years. I have all the data now, but
only that given here is needful.

One's body is a mass of individual thetans stuck to oneself or
to the body.

One has to clean them off by running incident II and Incident I.
It is a long job, requiring care, patience and good auditing.
You are running beings. They respond like any preclear. Some
large, some small.

Thetans believed they were one. This is the primary error.
Good luck.





Just really bad science fiction, gone really, really bad.

[thejbcrazy]

:D We shouldn't blame chef, we should blame that gay ass club.:D

[SUPERECWFAN1]

I never really understood why people would go to Scientology. Is it the perks to be considered a superhero of some sort ? I mean would you pay that much to wanna have people inside your club think your Batman or Superman ?

If so should we start a cult group and we can charge a shitload of cash so people can join and we can make them Wonder Woman and Superman !

[Infra-Man]

So I saw a much more complete version of the Tom Cruise awards ceremony. It's about 40 minutes worth of crazy, and that's a lot of crazy.

All I can say is that the press junket circuit for Cruise's next movie should be interesting.

[The Xenos]

FWIW, as loony as I think the Scientologists are (and as much of a dangerous cult I think it is), I do agree with them on the issue of psychologists. Not to the extremes they go (or at least Tom does in his videos), but I firmly believe that we are an overly medicated society here in this country at least, and that prescribing drugs for treatment has become far too commonplace and a panacea for what are real (and sometimes not real) issues that should otherwise be addressed.

I have to agree. The Scientologists have the right idea. They just take the idea and run at 100 mph in the wrong lane right off a cliff with it. They toss the baby out with the bathwater.

Meanwhile, I keep thinking of writing a comic based on a fictional version of Scientology along with various other interesting authors and their cult like following. Unfortunately the 'church' is too damn sue happy. Though I'd gladly put up a disclaimer. Never mind I want to mix in other interesting authors besides Hubbard.

Man, they flip the f--- out whenever anyone even mentions the word cult. They're just as bad as the crazy right wing Christians who get offended if anyone mentions Jesus in any way but theirs.

Geez. It's not like L Ron is the only sci fi author to form a cult following to a religious degree. Hell, look at Warren Ellis, Alan Moore, Neil Gaiman, Star Wars, HP Lovecraft. Hell, didn't Ayn Rand also find an institute. What makes these idiots think they're so special and untouchable?

[Cthulhudrew]

I have to agree. The Scientologists have the right idea. They just take the idea and run at 100 mph in the wrong lane right off a cliff with it. They toss the baby out with the bathwater.

What's even funnier is something I saw last night. That guy on CNN that used to host "The Mole" (can't think of his name and am too lazy to look it up), was running a story on Scientology, and showed a clip from a couple years back where he talked to a Scientologist that was heading up a major anti-psychiatry group.

He was trying to pin the guy down on his views, but when asked about how he felt about non-drug prescribing treatments or electroshock therapy (specifically, group and one-on-one dialogue therapy- just talking about issues), all the guy could do was evade the question and keep trying to point out that psychiatry is a pseudo-science that tries to make everyone believe that their issues are chemical in nature and need to be treated chemically.

As opposed to, say, making people believe that their issues are caused by aliens (thetans- or, as I like to call them- midichlorians) that need to be purged through some inexplicable rube-goldbergesque device, or willpower (whichever the case may be).

Yes, I can see how they find psychiatry to be so completely antithetical to their belief system.

Nutjobs.

What makes these idiots think they're so special and untouchable?

Probably the fact that they've decided to target the rich and influential as their rubes... err, I mean, flock. :p

[Jack Zodiac]

FWIW, as loony as I think the Scientologists are (and as much of a dangerous cult I think it is), I do agree with them on the issue of psychologists. Not to the extremes they go (or at least Tom does in his videos), but I firmly believe that we are an overly medicated society here in this country at least, and that prescribing drugs for treatment has become far too commonplace and a panacea for what are real (and sometimes not real) issues that should otherwise be addressed.

I disagree, but I may be biased because my girlfriend's on, like, five prescriptions for anxiety, depression, and hypersomnia. And until her and her psychologist figured out the right balance of prescriptions for her to adjust to a normal daily life, she was a fuckin' wreck. I highly doubt a strict regimen of exercise and vitamins would've done shit for her. There's a serious problem in America with conditions that require medication, though, and I think that's our own fault.

But to say that science is a lie and that there's no such thing as a chemical imbalance of dopamine or whatever in the brain that would cause such conditions is fucking ridiculous and dangerous, and it leads to shit like that kid stabbing his mother in the head forty-whatever-fuckin' times because he had an undiagnosed mental disorder that went untreated for decades.

And more seriously than mental health, Scientology denies medical attention for physical ailments, too, and that's just plain fuckin' crazy.

[Jack Zodiac]

I never really understood why people would go to Scientology. Is it the perks to be considered a superhero of some sort ? I mean would you pay that much to wanna have people inside your club think your Batman or Superman ?

If so should we start a cult group and we can charge a shitload of cash so people can join and we can make them Wonder Woman and Superman !

It's sad wish-fulfillment, which is exactly why L. Ron Hubbard created it in the first place.

He was a fat, talentless, unexceptional human being who was getting paid a penny a word for his crappy sci-fi stories, never had an adventure in his life, and had a brief and uneventful military career. As a regular human being, he was completely ordinary. Being that he was obviously psychotic and had intense delusions of grandeur, he decided to make himself special the only way he knew how: writing fiction. So he wrote up this incredibly crazy pseudo-science in Dianetics, tried passing it off as credited psychology, and was laughed at. Thus began his slow, boiling hatred of established psychology.

So he took his fake pseudo-science, created his own religion around it, wrote up even more fiction about himself and his church, told people he was a war hero, an experienced adventurer and scientist, all the things he wasn't, and then suckered them into believe his bullshit about everyone having the potential to be special- and not just, "you are you and that's why you're special" special, but levitating shit with your mind, having crazy adventures, flying through space with aliens special. "Crazy-special."

People are gullible fucks. If you wanted to be glib, you could look at that as the basis of any religion, but it's exceptionally dangerous when the religion you're gullibly sucked into controls every aspect of your life there-after... for one billion years. :rolleyes:

[Crowley]

weird thing about that video is how it's basically:

"Then I hit that LKX and *little kid gun noise* and then you know, it's incredible and the DJL and the SMK *little kid gun noise* y'know?" *fake maniacal laugh*

REPEAT

"Then I hit that LKX and *little kid gun noise* and then you know, it's incredible and the DJL and the SMK *little kid gun noise* y'know?" *fake maniacal laugh*

etc.

[Jack Zodiac]

Meanwhile, I keep thinking of writing a comic based on a fictional version of Scientology along with various other interesting authors and their cult like following. Unfortunately the 'church' is too damn sue happy. Though I'd gladly put up a disclaimer. Never mind I want to mix in other interesting authors besides Hubbard.

"Fair Use," brother. ;) I had the same idea. As long as you don't call it Scientology, don't call their leader L. Ron Hubbard, and make no reference to any of their copyrights or trademarks, you're golden, boy! I mean, think about it!

They're a million dollar empire with their own gulags, military force, naval fleet, tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of brainwashed, devoted followers, celebrities and politicians, and their own "sovereign city" in Florida akin to Latveria. They're practically right out of fuckin' comics!

[Jack Zodiac]

weird thing about that video is how it's basically:

"Then I hit that LKX and *little kid gun noise* and then you know, it's incredible and the DJL and the SMK *little kid gun noise* y'know?" *fake maniacal laugh*

REPEAT

"Then I hit that LKX and *little kid gun noise* and then you know, it's incredible and the DJL and the SMK *little kid gun noise* y'know?" *fake maniacal laugh*

etc.

Tom Cruise! Brain-washed cultist, or malfunctioning robot!? :eek:

[glue]

Hypersomnia? Is that like insomnia or narcolepsy?

[Jack Zodiac]

Hypersomnia? Is that like insomnia or narcolepsy?

It's like narcolepsy. It's excessive sleepiness, meaning she used to be able to sleep for the better part of a day- we're talkin', like, eighteen hours. Now, she's more than able to sleep for just eight hours, even less sometimes, without going the rest of the day feeling like she's about to pass out.

[glue]

Holy shit, that must've sucked major butt.

[Jack Zodiac]

Yep! Old joke, "best girlfriend in the world is one who sleeps half the day and fucks half the other," but really? Not as much fun as it sounds.

[Lester C.]

I never really understood why people would go to Scientology. Is it the perks to be considered a superhero of some sort ? I mean would you pay that much to wanna have people inside your club think your Batman or Superman ?

If so should we start a cult group and we can charge a shitload of cash so people can join and we can make them Wonder Woman and Superman !

Brian Bendis does an excellent job answering your questions in Alias. The basic answer is that people want to feel special and extraordinary so they jump at any chance to do so even if what they believe in is implausible.

[Ian Boothby]

There is a vast difference between a church and a cult.


Yes there is. Size.


That's the only difference.

[Spiffy]

It's sad wish-fulfillment, which is exactly why L. Ron Hubbard created it in the first place.

He was a fat, talentless, unexceptional human being who was getting paid a penny a word for his crappy sci-fi stories, never had an adventure in his life, and had a brief and uneventful military career. As a regular human being, he was completely ordinary. Being that he was obviously psychotic and had intense delusions of grandeur, he decided to make himself special the only way he knew how: writing fiction. So he wrote up this incredibly crazy pseudo-science in Dianetics, tried passing it off as credited psychology, and was laughed at. Thus began his slow, boiling hatred of established psychology.

So he took his fake pseudo-science, created his own religion around it, wrote up even more fiction about himself and his church, told people he was a war hero, an experienced adventurer and scientist, all the things he wasn't, and then suckered them into believe his bullshit about everyone having the potential to be special- and not just, "you are you and that's why you're special" special, but levitating shit with your mind, having crazy adventures, flying through space with aliens special. "Crazy-special."

People are gullible fucks. If you wanted to be glib, you could look at that as the basis of any religion, but it's exceptionally dangerous when the religion you're gullibly sucked into controls every aspect of your life there-after... for one billion years. :rolleyes:
His original motives were reportedly even baser than that. Money and sex.

Supposedly he was also a Satanist and his son, who later broke with him, for years told about how dear old Dad held regular orgies at the house.

And its interesting, because while some people might have set themselves up as the god of their religion, ol' L. Ron made sure he played to people's own base motives as well in his spiel. Sure, he, L. Ron, could achieve god-like powers, but SO COULD THEY! If they paid him for the lessons.

As for him having a "point" about psychology... well... you have to recall that back in the 1950s they were still giving people shock treatments and institutionalizing them for life. So again, as a counter to that, his notions seemed comforting. Well as comforting as it is to claim that psychologists are actually in service to Xenu and looking to continue his eons long work of subjugating all life in the universe through brainwashing.

Anyway, there have been a lot of abuses due to psychology over the years, but reducing what they do to an alternative where people can basically "wish" away their problems? Not good. Good psychologists these days work to reduce the dependence on drug treatment, and bad ones toss prescriptions out like candy. But the REALLY bad ones would be the ones who totally ignore the benefits of those drugs. I mean the flip side of not institutionalizing people these days is that they are out on the streets. Untreated except by mumbo-jumbo, if they fall into the orbit of a Scientologist, I guess.

[Spiffy]

Meanwhile, I keep thinking of writing a comic based on a fictional version of Scientology along with various other interesting authors and their cult like following. Unfortunately the 'church' is too damn sue happy. Though I'd gladly put up a disclaimer. Never mind I want to mix in other interesting authors besides Hubbard.


"Fair Use," brother. ;) I had the same idea. As long as you don't call it Scientology, don't call their leader L. Ron Hubbard, and make no reference to any of their copyrights or trademarks, you're golden, boy! I mean, think about it!

They're a million dollar empire with their own gulags, military force, naval fleet, tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of brainwashed, devoted followers, celebrities and politicians, and their own "sovereign city" in Florida akin to Latveria. They're practically right out of fuckin' comics!
I highly recommend the movie "Bowfinger" to anyone who wants to see that approach, at least a little bit.

Steve Martin gained a lot of respect from me for that movie. The tin hat wearing guys in that movie are basically Scientologists, a bit in disguise. Although he makes them seem more silly than dangerous--mostly because it was a comedy and he didn't want to go too far.

[Chris Hansbrough]

I woul really apreciate it if you guys would stop mocking my religion. I know who some of you are and have already spoked to our lawyers. stop now or we will file a lawsuit for defamation of character against you. now if you don't mind I have to go form a psychic mind link with the people of Bathar 5. We've also invited a few guys from Granthor 7 to get a 3 way call going. I STILL HAVE MY LAWYER ON SPEED DIAL THOUGH!

[shades of eternity]

L. Ron's mentor was just as insane.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Parsons

[Sarah Beach]

Darin Morgan spoofed Scientology in an episode he wrote for Millenium - using the Jose Chung character he'd created on The X-Files. I forget what the title of it was, and alas, I never did get to see all of it - my then VCR messed up recording it I think, so I never did see the end of it (I think Jose Chung gets killed or something). But it had Darin Morgan's usual brilliance and wit.

Hmmm. I'll have to hunt that down.

[Red Jack]

Yes there is. Size.


That's the only difference.

Cha ching.

[Charles RB]

The tin hat wearing guys in that movie are basically Scientologists, a bit in disguise.

Martin's denied they're based on Scientology, but considering how sue-happy they are... After all, that aforementioned episode of Millennium had the cult up in arms and the executive producers had to meet them over it. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jose_Chung%27s_Doomsday_Defense_%28Millennium%29)

[PatrickG]

L. Ron's mentor was just as insane.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Parsons

Parsons was somewhat accomplished with rocketry.

And remember, if Parsons wasn't savvy enough to HAVE $10k, a yacht and a wife for Hubbard to steal, Hubbard never would have been able to found Scientology.

Scientology: Relieving people of their possessions since 1947.

Hm. Rob from the rich and enslave the poor. Oddly enough, it seems that when somebody does both, they get CREDIT for both with a sizable number of people. Some rich people are impressed by the large organization and immaculate gardening... and the poor people are impressed that you can sign the rich people on and take 'em for everything they've got.

It really shouldn't work that way.

[Charles RB]

Scientology: Relieving people of their possessions since 1947.

The Sons of Xenu just got an advertising campaign slogan!

[Jack Zodiac]

The Sons of Xenu just got an advertising campaign slogan!

It's good, but I like "Children of Xenu: Free lunch!" better. :p

[Grazzt]

Darin Morgan spoofed Scientology in an episode he wrote for Millenium - using the Jose Chung character he'd created on The X-Files. I forget what the title of it was, and alas, I never did get to see all of it - my then VCR messed up recording it I think, so I never did see the end of it (I think Jose Chung gets killed or something). But it had Darin Morgan's usual brilliance and wit.

Hmmm. I'll have to hunt that down.

That was one of my favourite episodes of Millennium. I love the way the Selfosophist dies in the end. The episode is "Jose Chung's Doomsday Defense".

[Spiffy]

Martin's denied they're based on Scientology, but considering how sue-happy they are... After all, that aforementioned episode of Millennium had the cult up in arms and the executive producers had to meet them over it. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jose_Chung%27s_Doomsday_Defense_%28Millennium%29)
Although I don't recall everything, I've been able to patch my memory a bit thanks to Wikipedia. Here are some interesting aspects of Bowfinger that show how big the "wink" is when Steve claims it isn't about Scientology:

1.) The group is called "MindHead". Given the mind over matter nature of Scientology, think about that name as a parody...

2.) Eddie Murphy's main character (he plays two) is Kit Ramsey--a MindHead member who's the world's biggest action star (sound familiar? And note this was shot in 1998/99--now who was the world's biggest action star around then?). Ramsey is paranoid about aliens controlling his thoughts and/or invading the planet. Steve Martin's character is a sleazy producer making a movie around Ramsey without his permission by secretly following him around and filming reactions of Ramsey reacting to people hired to walk up to him in public acting out scenes from a lame alien invasion plot.

3.) MindHead's slogan is "Truth Through Strength". Some major stated tenets of Scientology involve finding the "truth" behind things and have major emphasis concerning our inbuilt survival instincts. Fits the MindHead slogan pretty well if you look closely.

4.) Terrence Stamp arguably plays L. Ron Hubbard in the film. MindHead bases their philosophy around self-help techniques. They aggressively recruit celebrities and use e-meter-like electronic devices. The MindHeader top brass wear paramilitary uniforms. They have spies that infiltrate businesses to see if there is anti-MindHead activity going on.

[Ian Boothby]

Darin Morgan spoofed Scientology in an episode he wrote for Millenium - using the Jose Chung character he'd created on The X-Files. I forget what the title of it was, and alas, I never did get to see all of it - my then VCR messed up recording it I think, so I never did see the end of it (I think Jose Chung gets killed or something). But it had Darin Morgan's usual brilliance and wit.

Hmmm. I'll have to hunt that down.

That was a great episode. The Millenium group had no problem facing down Satan but were scared by the cult's lawyers.

[icareenuffforII]

Is it just me or does this feel like a Skrull cult?

[Cthulhudrew]

I disagree, but I may be biased because my girlfriend's on, like, five prescriptions for anxiety, depression, and hypersomnia. And until her and her psychologist figured out the right balance of prescriptions for her to adjust to a normal daily life, she was a fuckin' wreck. I highly doubt a strict regimen of exercise and vitamins would've done shit for her. There's a serious problem in America with conditions that require medication, though, and I think that's our own fault.

Don't get me wrong; I think that prescription drugs in combination with therapy can be absolutely helpful in certain cases. It's when people rely solely on the drugs, and don't work to address the underlying issues that they "need" the drugs for, that I think is the problem. And it's all too commonplace nowadays, IMO, for someone to scribble off a prescription and write off the problem as solved, while meanwhile the patient not only doesn't address the actual emotional/psychological issues, but subsequently comes to rely on the drugs as necessary, and develops a psychological dependency, in addition to all the other problems they have.

[Jack Zodiac]

Is it just me or does this feel like a Skrull cult?

Nah, Tom Cruise and John Travolta have always been weird fuckers. Plus, no cows... yet.

Don't get me wrong; I think that prescription drugs in combination with therapy can be absolutely helpful in certain cases. It's when people rely solely on the drugs, and don't work to address the underlying issues that they "need" the drugs for, that I think is the problem. And it's all too commonplace nowadays, IMO, for someone to scribble off a prescription and write off the problem as solved, while meanwhile the patient not only doesn't address the actual emotional/psychological issues, but subsequently comes to rely on the drugs as necessary, and develops a psychological dependency, in addition to all the other problems they have.

Well, no, I don't think you always need therapy, either, because not all mental problems are purely mental, they're chemical. Which is why prescription drugs are necessary. Jill doesn't go to a therapist every week because she tried that and all it did was rake up bills and resolve nothing. The combination of drugs she's on, on the other hand, turned her life completely around, and they're expensive enough. :rolleyes:

Scientology believes you don't need drugs and chemical imbalances are "lies." They declaim psychology but then tout their own therapy style and claim exercise and vitamins can cure anything from drug dependency to personality disorders, which flies in the face of all proven science.

I agree that there's a rash of overmedication in America, but I don't see that as a fault of psychology or the pharmaceutical industry. Over even just the past century, we've fucked ourselves up with all kinds of shit from our technology to our agriculture they we're seven shades of not right. It ain't thetans, though, that's for sure, and there's no sweating 'em out or vitamining 'em away. Whatever pillhead society we live in we brought on ourselves. There may be a lot of pills flying in everyone's faces, but for the vast majority of those people, without those pills, their entire lives would be fucked up.

[Suzanne]

A few things:

-If Tom distributed billions of this "LOH Technology," what is it, and where the fuck's mine?

-Who's to say he hasn't always been batshit?

-This Defamer poster made an interesting observation:
Incessantly talking without finishing sentences or making sense is called called "logorrhea"--and it's the sign of a seriously disordered personality. The next step is "word salad", where he just spews words without any semblance of sentence structure, like "rhinocerois tea-kettle murphy bed applesauce", and that means a true psychotic break. Won't that be fun?So he's possibly thisclose to speaking in word salad. I actually do thing it's sad he's come this low remembering how popular he was.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Don't get me wrong; I think that prescription drugs in combination with therapy can be absolutely helpful in certain cases. It's when people rely solely on the drugs, and don't work to address the underlying issues that they "need" the drugs for, that I think is the problem. And it's all too commonplace nowadays, IMO, for someone to scribble off a prescription and write off the problem as solved, while meanwhile the patient not only doesn't address the actual emotional/psychological issues, but subsequently comes to rely on the drugs as necessary, and develops a psychological dependency, in addition to all the other problems they have.

Well, no, I don't think you always need therapy, either, because not all mental problems are purely mental, they're chemical. Which is why prescription drugs are necessary. Jill doesn't go to a therapist every week because she tried that and all it did was rake up bills and resolve nothing. The combination of drugs she's on, on the other hand, turned her life completely around, and they're expensive enough. :rolleyes:

Medication is absolutely essential in addressing some psychiatric conditions. Schizophrenia and bipolar disorder, for example, simply cannot be addressed adequately without the use of medication. Neither can particularly severe depressions (those with lots of vegetative symptoms) or severe OCD. Therapy alone has virtually nothing to offer in such cases.

That said, numerous studies have demonstrated that even in these cases, better long-term results are obtained when therapy is combined with medication. Therapy alone cannot adequately treat something like schizophrenia or bipolar disorder, but if the person is stabilized with appropriate medication, therapy can help the person better understand and deal with their disorder, learn coping and stress-management techniques which will help maintain stability, etc.

There are many other conditions in which medications can be helpful, but are not absolutely necessary. Numerous studies have demonstrated that individuals with Major Depressive Disorder tend to have a better outcome with the combination of medication and therapy, though if one is going to go with one or the other for some reason, therapy has the edge according to the studies. (Again, though, this is *not* the case in particularly severe cases of MDD, in which medication is absolutely required).

Then there are many conditions which can't really be effectively treated at all by medication. Medication may in some cases be necessary to help take the edge off certain symptoms and calm the person enough that he or she will be more able to take part in and benefit from therapy, but generally speaking, medication plays at most an ancillary role in treatment of conditions such as PTSD.

Keep in mind, though, that not all therapy is equal. For many problems, traditional psychodynamic sorts of therapies are essentially useless. For most conditions which can be treated by therapies, there are clearly some therapies - most often some variety of cognitive-behavioral therapy - which work better than others.

Scientology believes you don't need drugs and chemical imbalances are "lies." They declaim psychology but then tout their own therapy style and claim exercise and vitamins can cure anything from drug dependency to personality disorders, which flies in the face of all proven science.
This is why Tom and the Scientologists are a vile and dangerous bunch of fuckheads, and why I have contempt for Oprah or anyone else that gives him and his crowd a forum in which to express their bullshit views.

I agree that there's a rash of overmedication in America, but I don't see that as a fault of psychology or the pharmaceutical industry. Over even just the past century, we've fucked ourselves up with all kinds of shit from our technology to our agriculture they we're seven shades of not right. It ain't thetans, though, that's for sure, and there's no sweating 'em out or vitamining 'em away. Whatever pillhead society we live in we brought on ourselves. There may be a lot of pills flying in everyone's faces, but for the vast majority of those people, without those pills, their entire lives would be fucked up.
I think the pharmaceutical companies do deserve some blame for how they push meds, but I think more blame falls on those physicians that prescribe medication outside their area of competence and/or in a manner inconsistent with practice guidelines. Many kids are misdiagnosed with ADHD by family practice and pediatric physicians, and placed on meds they don't really need. Lots of GPs over-prescribe anti-anxiety meds (Xanax and the like), or prescribe antidepressant meds in sub-clinical doses. Also, the accepted AMA and American Psychiatric Association treatment guidelines state very clearly that anyone prescribed medication for treatment of anxiety or depressive disorders should also be referred for psychotherapy, and this is also strongly recommended for children and adolescents placed on meds for ADHD, but these treatment guidelines are all too often ignored by prescribing physicians.

[Jack Zodiac]

A few things:

-If Tom distributed billions of this "LOH Technology," what is it, and where the fuck's mine?

In Scientology, "tech" isn't any tangible thing, it's the teachings of Scientology applied to people, so when Tom says he's distributed billions of "LRH Tech," I think is what you meant, what he's claiming is that he's helped people by spouting off billions of insane things at people. :p

-Who's to say he hasn't always been batshit?

He probably was. If anything, he was probably just ridiculously insecure when he got into acting and Scientology was there to make him feel better in lieu of real people that aren't fuckin' nuts.

So he's possibly thisclose to speaking in word salad. I actually do thing it's sad he's come this low remembering how popular he was.

Yeah, it's weird, though... he's been a Scientologist since, like, "Top Gun." And John Travolta's been a Scientologist since before "Welcome Back, Kotter," and I loved that show. These guys used to seem normal to me, but very recently these celeb Scientologists have started crankin' up their crazy.

Medication is absolutely essential in addressing some psychiatric conditions. Schizophrenia and bipolar disorder, for example, simply cannot be addressed adequately without the use of medication. Neither can particularly severe depressions (those with lots of vegetative symptoms) or severe OCD. Therapy alone has virtually nothing to offer in such cases.

That said, numerous studies have demonstrated that even in these cases, better long-term results are obtained when therapy is combined with medication. Therapy alone cannot adequately treat something like schizophrenia or bipolar disorder, but if the person is stabilized with appropriate medication, therapy can help the person better understand and deal with their disorder, learn coping and stress-management techniques which will help maintain stability, etc.

There are many other conditions in which medications can be helpful, but are not absolutely necessary. Numerous studies have demonstrated that individuals with Major Depressive Disorder tend to have a better outcome with the combination of medication and therapy, though if one is going to go with one or the other for some reason, therapy has the edge according to the studies. (Again, though, this is *not* the case in particularly severe cases of MDD, in which medication is absolutely required).

Then there are many conditions which can't really be effectively treated at all by medication. Medication may in some cases be necessary to help take the edge off certain symptoms and calm the person enough that he or she will be more able to take part in and benefit from therapy, but generally speaking, medication plays at most an ancillary role in treatment of conditions such as PTSD.

Keep in mind, though, that not all therapy is equal. For many problems, traditional psychodynamic sorts of therapies are essentially useless. For most conditions which can be treated by therapies, there are clearly some therapies - most often some variety of cognitive-behavioral therapy - which work better than others.

Pfffffft! What do you know about psychology? You aren't a Scientologist! :p

This is why Tom and the Scientologists are a vile and dangerous bunch of fuckheads, and why I have contempt for Oprah or anyone else that gives him and his crowd a forum in which to express their bullshit views.

Yeah, I'm right there with ya'. Unless they're openly inspecting their practices, anyone who gives 'em the time of day's almost as bad as they are.

I think the pharmaceutical companies do deserve some blame for how they push meds, but I think more blame falls on those physicians that prescribe medication outside their area of competence and/or in a manner inconsistent with practice guidelines. Many kids are misdiagnosed with ADHD by family practice and pediatric physicians, and placed on meds they don't really need. Lots of GPs over-prescribe anti-anxiety meds (Xanax and the like), or prescribe antidepressant meds in sub-clinical doses. Also, the accepted AMA and American Psychiatric Association treatment guidelines state very clearly that anyone prescribed medication for treatment of anxiety or depressive disorders should also be referred for psychotherapy, and this is also strongly recommended for children and adolescents placed on meds for ADHD, but these treatment guidelines are all too often ignored by prescribing physicians.

Yeah, I think ADD or ADHD is probably the worst case of when drug companies and practitioners push drugs on people, and next down on the list is probably anxiety or certain types of depression. The drug companies are certainly not without their faults, but I wouldn't even demonize them a quart as badly as Scientologists do.

[Spiffy]

A few things:

-If Tom distributed billions of this "LOH Technology," what is it, and where the fuck's mine?

-Who's to say he hasn't always been batshit?

-This Defamer poster made an interesting observation:
So he's possibly thisclose to speaking in word salad. I actually do thing it's sad he's come this low remembering how popular he was.

Suzanne, he IS making sense if you are a Scientologist. Part of Hubbard's brainwashing agenda was that he created an alternate language which uses the same exact words as English but often with different meanings than the rest of the world uses, bolstered by tons of acronyms. Tom is talking in Scientologese in that video, not English.

That's not to say he's mentally stable overall, but that's more a general statement about what happens to people after years of subtle brainwashing and being exposed to a cult.

[Jack Zodiac]

You guys are enturbulating the ethics of his tech! :mad: You're just a bunch of SPs who'll never understand the OT of LRH!

[Spiffy]

You guys are enturbulating the ethics of his tech! :mad: You're just a bunch of SPs who'll never understand the OT of LRH!

Actually, if I understand the way they use their words, it would be more like:

Ethics are going to have to deal with these SPs. They're fair game since they are enturbulating our PTSs. We can't have any more enthetas in our reality or we will never OT to be Clear. Now go audit to case gain to very good indicators!

Here this ought to help translate. Sort of: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Library/Shelf/wakefield/us-08.html

[Jack Zodiac]

I don't think I've ever heard "ethics" used as a proper noun, but mostly as a way of describing a person's state of morality, like "ethics-in" or "out-ethics." Either way, it's fucking insane. But "enturbulate" and "obnosis" are my favorite crazy people words. :D

[Gladiaria_Alata]

.....Wow.

But it's more sad than creepy, really, to see the depths to which people can fall.

[Magneto_X]

Is it just me or does this feel like a Skrull cult?

Skrulls aren't that evil.

And they're much cooler then Scientology.

[Jack Zodiac]

Holy shit, this illustrated history of Scientology (http://historyofscientology.ytmnd.com/) is awesome. :p

[Lester C.]

Holy shit, this illustrated history of Scientology (http://historyofscientology.ytmnd.com/) is awesome. :p

All of my arguments in this thread centered around support for this first amendment rather than Scientology because the only thing I knew about Scientology is that a few celebrities belong to it. Now that I have a through understanding of Scientology, thanks to Jack Z, let me just say that I have no idea how ONE person can be a Scientology let alone millions. Can't people not see that the whole religion is a science fiction book written by a science fiction author?

[Spiffy]

Holy shit, this illustrated history of Scientology (http://historyofscientology.ytmnd.com/) is awesome. :p
Especially the parts with the boxes, the 3D glasses on souls, and L. Ron going "Blaaaarrrrgh"!

My only issue is with the "it started 75 million years ago". Funny, yes, but it hardly gives an accurate picture of the pinnacle of lunacy of what the Scientologists believe.

In fact, they believe that Xenu's "plan" was only one of almost endless waves of thetan brainwashing that goes back um.... 70 trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion years ago (7×1085 years--in other words they think this all goes back further than science believes humanity, or the planet Earth existed, or even FAR longer than the currently acknowledged age of the UNIVERSE, which is only 13.7 billion years).

If you want to see the absolute extent of their nuttyness, go here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_opera_in_Scientology_scripture#Scientology.2 7s_history_of_the_universe


Scientology's history of the universe

* 70 trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion years ago (7×1085 years): The Story of Creation Implants
* 5.9 trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion years to 40.7 trillion trillion trillion trillion years ago ago (5.9×1060–4.07×1049 years): The Glade Implants are implanted.[citation needed]
* 40.7 trillion trillion trillion trillion years to about 83 trillion trillion trillion years agoago (4.07×1049–8.3×1036 years): The Bear Goals are implanted.[citation needed]
* 110,000 trillion trillion years ago or earlier to 390 trillion trillion years ago (1.1×1029–3.9×1026 years): The Invisible Picture Goals implants are implanted by an unknown alien race
* 390 trillion trillion years ago to 370 trillion trillion years ago (3.9×1026–3.7×1026 years): The Black Thetan Goals are implanted
* 4 quadrillion years ago (4×1015 years): Thetans enter the present universe and experience Incident I
* 382 trillion years ago to 52 trillion years ago (3.82×1014–5.2×1013 years): The Helatrobus Implants are implanted
* 83 trillion trillion trillion to 319 trillion years ago years ago (8.3×1036–3.19×1014 years): The Gorilla Goals Implants
* 315 trillion years ago to 216 trillion years ago (3.15×1014–2.16×1014 years): The Aircraft Door Goals are implanted
* 80 trillion years ago (8×1013 years): The Galactic Confederacy is established
* 52 trillion years ago (5.2×1013 years): The Helatrobus government is established
* 44 trillion years ago (4.4×1013 years, "43,891,832,611,177 years, 344 days, 10 hours, 20 minutes and 40 seconds from 10:02½ PM Daylight Greenwich Time May 9, 1963"): The Heaven Implants are given, presumably by Helatrobus
* 38 trillion years ago (3.8×1013 years): Helatrobus falls or is destroyed

It should be noted that all dates given above are far beyond the current scientific consensus for the age of the present universe (approximately 13.7 billion [1.37×1010] years)

* 75 million years ago (7.5×107 years): Xenu commits his famous genocide and brainwashes his victims with the R6 Implants
* 50 million years ago (5×107 years): The Body Builder Incident
* 200,000 years ago (2×105 years): The Marcab Confederacy is established
* "Hundreds of years ago to hundreds of thousands of years ago":- The Marcab Invasion Force implants thetans with the Train Goals
* Circa 6235 BC: The Fifth Invader Force invades the Solar System but is defeated by the Fourth Invader Force
* AD 1150: The Espinol abandon our Solar System


There's a lot more nuttyness on that entire page (from the top-- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_opera_in_Scientology_scripture ) but the "history" timeline is a pretty good intro.

Oh. This page is fun too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incident_%28Scientology%29

My favorite are the Gorilla Goals:


The Gorilla Goals were a series of implants created by invaders from Helatrobus "between about 319 trillion[1] years ago to about 256 trillion trillion[2] years ago" (or 89 trillion trillion years ago in another Hubbard lecture[citation needed]). They were

given in an amusement park with a single tunnel, a roller coaster and a Ferris wheel ... The symbol of a Gorilla was always present in the place the goal was given. Sometimes a large gorilla, black, was seen elsewhere than the park. A mechanical or a live gorilla was always seen in the park.

This activity was conducted by the Hoipolloi, a group of operators in meat body societies. They were typical carnival people. They let out concessions for these implant "Amusement Parks." A pink-striped white shirt with sleeve garters was the uniform of the Hoipolloi. Such a figure often rode on the roller coaster cars. Monkeys were also used on the cars. Elephants sometimes formed part of the equipment.
("Routine 3N: Line Plots", HCOB 14 July 1963)

The Hoipolloi used "fantastic motion" as well as "blasts of raw electricity and explosions" to brainwash the hapless thetans into accepting the Gorilla Goals. The goals themselves were a series of simple tasks intended to trick the thetans into limiting their inherent abilities, with the goals including "To End", "To be Dead", "To be Asleep", "To be Solid", "To be Sexual" and so on.

Gotta love those roller coasters, gorillas and Ferris wheels from 256 trillion trillion years ago! You know... before they evolved. Or the planet they evolved on existed. Or the UNIVERSE the planet they evolved on existed.

And you'd think at SOME point, the poor hapless thetans would be tired of being brainwashed! I mean in Scientological history it happens over and over and over and over and over and over and over again. And then a few MORE times!

Oh wait. That DID happen! When L. Ron realized what was happening!

[Larry Dixon]

Geez. It's not like L Ron is the only sci fi author to form a cult following to a religious degree. Hell, look at Warren Ellis, Alan Moore, Neil Gaiman, Star Wars, HP Lovecraft. Hell, didn't Ayn Rand also find an institute. What makes these idiots think they're so special and untouchable?

Hey, my wife & I have had three stalkers on record who all, to some degree, thought the shit we put in our books was The Real Damn Deal and tipped right the fuck over the edge.

It's even on-topic for YABS---we give comics, fantasy & SF pros advice all the time on how to deal with THEIR extreme whackaloons.

What can I say.

Sometimes people just latch onto things.

Also, strangely enough, I spent a weekend off & on with Tom Cruise. I was the gate guard at Roebling Road raceway outside Savannah Georgia, and Paul Newman brought Cruise and his then-girlfriend Mimi there. Everyone there for the driving course weekend had paid hundreds or thousands of dollars for instruction, and provided their own cars & equipment. The movie stars were given brand-new, fully raceprepped 300ZXs by a local dealership.

Anyway, Mimi was nice, and Paul was as cool and kind as always. But Cruise was a creepy fucking creature. There just was no person there---he was always acting. By this I mean, he was in a frozen grin until he found that someone was there to "act at"---he had to make eye contact with someone before any emotion of any kind would be, well, simulated. Cruise skipped driver meetings & instruction, pissed off the volunteer workers, but was always there for a camera.

At the end of that weekend was an actual race for points, as the completion of instruction.

Cruise rolled the race car on the first turn of the first lap.

The volunteer corner workers let him hang sideways in his belts for about 20 minutes until the race was over, because he'd pissed everyone off so much.

The local news reported he won his first race.

[Spiffy]

Also, strangely enough, I spent a weekend off & on with Tom Cruise. I was the gate guard at Roebling Road raceway outside Savannah Georgia, and Paul Newman brought Cruise and his then-girlfriend Mimi there. Everyone there for the driving course weekend had paid hundreds or thousands of dollars for instruction, and provided their own cars & equipment. The movie stars were given brand-new, fully raceprepped 300ZXs by a local dealership.

Anyway, Mimi was nice, and Paul was as cool and kind as always. But Cruise was a creepy fucking creature. There just was no person there---he was always acting. By this I mean, he was in a frozen grin until he found that someone was there to "act at"---he had to make eye contact with someone before any emotion of any kind would be, well, simulated. Cruise skipped driver meetings & instruction, pissed off the volunteer workers, but was always there for a camera.

At the end of that weekend was an actual race for points, as the completion of instruction.

Cruise rolled the race car on the first turn of the first lap.

The volunteer corner workers let him hang sideways in his belts for about 20 minutes until the race was over, because he'd pissed everyone off so much.

The local news reported he won his first race.
Interesting tale, since Mimi is the one who first got him into the nuttyness. Although supposedly David Miscavige fell in love with Cruise's bigger fame and even bigger gullibility and eventually helped edge Mimi out of Tom's life.


Now THIS is freaky:

http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/film/article3224285.ece

Wow. Even I think that's a harsh criticism of him, and I'm convinced he and his buddies are all either nuts or criminals. But being compared to Goebbels? Wow. Just wow.

[kingdom2000]

All of my arguments in this thread centered around support for this first amendment rather than Scientology because the only thing I knew about Scientology is that a few celebrities belong to it. Now that I have a through understanding of Scientology, thanks to Jack Z, let me just say that I have no idea how ONE person can be a Scientology let alone millions. Can't people not see that the whole religion is a science fiction book written by a science fiction author?

Based on a radio interview I heard a while back...I think Scientology keeps their more extreme beliefs from the minions. This person was trying to sell/defend the religion and just flat out denied the origin story with xeon or whatever the big bad is of the religion and said it was lies and mis-information spread by those against the religion. She also admitted she was OT level 4 or 5.

I think what it is that the minions simply not informed of the more wacky details of the cult until something like OT level 7 or 8. If you get that high in the religion, the person has to be very rich or otherwise can't afford the classes to get there.

If you commit the time and money to get up there, then you are fully committed and entrenched so someone suddenly confirming, yeah we think this big bad infected all humans with aliens something or other doesn't come across as out there by the time get up there because already swallowed all that came before. Basically it becomes relative. And if think about it the origin of the religion is no more wacky then most common religions of today.

So anycase, the minions don't believe it because told not to. Those that know that it is true are too committed (broke or rich) to turn their backs on it (pride, ego, actually belief, etc). Sure they can do an internet search, but they are told that the web is full of lies. Its typical cult indoctrination. Believe us and no one else. Since so few climb the ladder to the top to find out the lies are not lies, it simply doesn't become an issue for the religion.

I think of it as similar as the idea of the holy trinity or the body of Christ. If someone told you that as your very first exposure to Catholism, wouldn't you just laugh your ass off rather then believe in it? Instead those more strange aspects get introduced slowly and over time so its easier to believe and follow. I think Scientology simply does the same. Only instead their equilvilent of "Genesis" is at the end instead of the beginning.

[Zengei]

Actually, if I understand the way they use their words, it would be more like:

Ethics are going to have to deal with these SPs. They're fair game since they are enturbulating our PTSs. We can't have any more enthetas in our reality or we will never OT to be Clear. Now go audit to case gain to very good indicators!

Here this ought to help translate. Sort of: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Library/Shelf/wakefield/us-08.html
Ah, so that's what "enturbulate" means. First time I heard it was in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPol_m8wm8Y

From what I've read, these tactics were prescribed by L. Ron. That when confronted a scientologist should constantly question people about their "crimes" real or imaginary.

[Charles RB]

I think of it as similar as the idea of the holy trinity or the body of Christ. If someone told you that as your very first exposure to Catholism, wouldn't you just laugh your ass off rather then believe in it?

Eh? The holy trinity and eucharist are not only central parts of Catholicism, they're openly known and have been for centuries; I'm a little fuzzy on how often they have mass in the Catholic church and would be in your first exposure to Catholicism. You go to the Sunday mass, you're exposed.

This is not similar to Scientology's approach to the Xenu myth at all.

[Darediva]

I stumbled onto this clip, which I find amusing simply because I lived in Las Vegas, New Mexico, in the 1970's, and this "vault" was not there back then. (Second half of the report.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fB87IJT78M8&NR=1

[Lester C.]

You know that right now the leaders of Scientology are launching a full investigation aimed at everyone at that party. That video was ONLY intended to be seen by people already indoctrinated to solidify and reinforce their faith rather than convinced them to join. Someone filmed it, edited it, perhaps added a cheesy voice over. Given the fact that only the elite of the elite was there someone is a spy for their organization who has drastically setback any attempt Tom has made to rehabilitate his image since the chair jumping incident.

[Sabrinaset]

It was already gunna be difficult to rehabilitate Tom after he married his daughter. It's beyond hope now.

To LRH! *salutes*

[Spiffy]

Based on a radio interview I heard a while back...I think Scientology keeps their more extreme beliefs from the minions. This person was trying to sell/defend the religion and just flat out denied the origin story with xeon or whatever the big bad is of the religion and said it was lies and mis-information spread by those against the religion. She also admitted she was OT level 4 or 5.
Actually, I think what they really do is tell these people its okay to lie. Many of them MAY believe it and think its just their duty to lie and say its bunk.

It's well established that Hubbard believed that any tactics, ANY at all, were appropriate in their cause--that they can lie, steal, cheat, injure or possibly even kill in service of it. Their whole concept of "Fair Game" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_Game_%28Scientology%29) is precisely about that. A concept that Hubbard later "canceled", (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_Game_%28Scientology%29#Cancellation) but admitted at the time that the cancellation was just a P.R. move. What many believe is that all Hubbard canceled was the use of the TERM "Fair Game", but that the actual behaviors it encouraged continue to be their policy.

Oh, here's a lovely tactic of theirs. Its one that's hardly exclusive to them, but they've given it a name...

Dead Agenting (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology_controversy#.22Dead_agenting.22): a practice of countering negative accusations against Scientology by attacking the person making them.

Anyway, back to the main subject--what lower level Scientologists actually believe. I don't think this has been a big problem for them until recently, because even though its been up on the net for years, even just reading this thread I think you can see how few people KNOW to look for that information. The average person they hook with a free eMeter test, or free lecture or auditing session isn't gonna know. If they get into the cause I'm sure they are split into several groups--the complacent believers who are easy sheep, the eager beavers who they spot as eventual leaders, and finally the people who are spotted as "Potential Trouble Sources" who are either eased out or put into some holding pattern where they mysteriously never get any higher in their OT levels and thus can be safely assured that the Space Opera stuff is nonsense--because they will never get any higher and need to be told otherwise.

The real sharks at the top probably are eventually assured that what's really going on is their own little scheme to bilk the others out of money, and aliens have nothing to do with it, but I bet a big group in the middle believes the Xenu crap (and lies about it when asked), while the lower levels either STILL don't know about it, or think its bunk only because they'll never be squeezed hard enough for money to reach that middle level and need to believe it.

[Reverend Smooth]

Hey, my wife & I have had three stalkers on record who all, to some degree, thought the shit we put in our books was The Real Damn Deal and tipped right the fuck over the edge.
Hubbard's actually stated that he made all that religious shit up for money, too.

Re: cruise story: Ugh. I've gotten that feel off him just based on watching him, that he's always acting. Hollow people are disturbing.

[Matt Doc Martin]

Holy shit, this illustrated history of Scientology (http://historyofscientology.ytmnd.com/) is awesome. :p

Wow. Xenu is the MAN.

All hail Xenu and his magical space planes.

This weekend, I am heading to Clearwater and Scientology Central, with a video camera and a dream. Who wants to come with?.

[Spiffy]

Hubbard's actually stated that he made all that religious shit up for money, too.
Right. That's why I think Miscavige and his elite guard all are "in on it", while the legions below them either sit in the middle and have been coaxed into believing the most outrageous stuff and lying about it, or sit near the bottom and genuinely don't know the wackiest stuff and/or don't NEED to believe it at their levels.

Why does a cult build huge crop circles and survivalist bunkers with storerooms to contain their leader's writings on titanium sheets (as Anderson Cooper's show reported)? I actually think as much for appearances' sake as anything else. Not for the outside world, but for their own membership. At least the ones who probably give enough money or enough of their lives up to merit "special visits" to places like this and who wind up feeling like they've been let in on some great secret.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPol_m8wm8Y
What's in this video should surprise me... but it doesn't.

[kingdom2000]

All religions are really a form of business, Scientology has just perfected the formula.

[Reverend Smooth]

That's not true, though you could argue that about organised religions.

[sk716]

Wow. Xenu is the MAN.

All hail Xenu and his magical space planes.

This weekend, I am heading to Clearwater and Scientology Central, with a video camera and a dream. Who wants to come with?.

Everybody start ponying up for Matt's bail and legal battles with the Scientology freaks.

[Spiffy]

Here's some more neat YouTube videos!

On the Celebutensiveness...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgqKA3w6T2U
Does it surprise any of you that the auditing sessions went straight to Scientology HQ? That's the source of a lot of their blackmail.

Here's another on the same subject:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0P2Nd3O0Qc

A bit about the very scary "Sea Org".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elw9e9LJIwQ
I've read other stuff from people that "got out" that supports what you hear in this. And think about the way the Scientologist mouthpiece who they interview later on in this uses the word "technology". That scares me almost as much as ethics. Any crazy thing L. Ron came up with is "technology" to them.

And for those who think Xenu and the space crazyiness is just funny... watch THIS video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCGP-0545EU
Not so funny now, eh? While not all of that is provable, there's an awful lot there to debate.

[Magneto_X]

Right. That's why I think Miscavige and his elite guard all are "in on it", while the legions below them either sit in the middle and have been coaxed into believing the most outrageous stuff and lying about it, or sit near the bottom and genuinely don't know the wackiest stuff and/or don't NEED to believe it at their levels.

Why does a cult build huge crop circles and survivalist bunkers with storerooms to contain their leader's writings on titanium sheets (as Anderson Cooper's show reported)? I actually think as much for appearances' sake as anything else. Not for the outside world, but for their own membership. At least the ones who probably give enough money or enough of their lives up to merit "special visits" to places like this and who wind up feeling like they've been let in on some great secret.


It has its own militia and navy, too.

I've heard the guards at their centres are armed, as well.

[Magneto_X]

Everybody start ponying up for Matt's bail and legal battles with the Scientology freaks.

They won't win.

We have Bree on our side. They don't stand a chance. :D

[Matt Doc Martin]

Everybody start ponying up for Matt's bail and legal battles with the Scientology freaks.

Eh, I am pretty sure that Clearwater is still part of the US and that the right to walk the streets unhindered by nutjobs still holds true.

Want me to say "Hi" for you?

[Sally Sensational]

Eh, I am pretty sure that Clearwater is still part of the US and that the right to walk the streets unhindered by nutjobs still holds true.

Want me to say "Hi" for you?

Just, remember, Matt, that that also means the Scientology members have the right to walk the streets unmolested by you. You'll know them by their white shirts - some with naval insignia - and black ties.

[Magneto_X]

Eh, I am pretty sure that Clearwater is still part of the US and that the right to walk the streets unhindered by nutjobs still holds true.

Want me to say "Hi" for you?

Take a video camera and at least one person as a witness.

[Matt Doc Martin]

Just, remember, Matt, that that also means the Scientology members have the right to walk the streets unmolested by you. You'll know them by their white shirts - some with naval insignia - and black ties.

Yeah, I have watched videos of them.

Besides...it is so close to me, I feel like i am missing the circus. I will comport myself with dignity and professionalism. I will also not get withing 50 feet of any Scientology building. Nor will I engage any Scientologist (or passerby) in conversation.

Now where did I leave my "What Would Xenu Do?" shirt?

[Spiffy]

In the last part of the Scientology's Military report (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elw9e9LJIwQ) (starting around the 8 minute mark to the end), note the way the Scientology escapee compares Miscavige's "honor guard" at Scientology HQ to "slaves".

Hey, look! Book banning (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xF3Jg-FiZRA)!

[Sabrinaset]

Everybody start ponying up for Matt's bail and legal battles with the Scientology freaks.

They won't win.

We have Bree on our side. They don't stand a chance. :D

I spend more time helping you guys out.

"Bree, I need help! My appendix is glowing green!"

"Bree, my manager won't sell DC toys at Wal-Mart ... can I borrow your tazer?"

"Bree, Matt is going postal on the Scientologists; where's your rifle?"


*sigh* Life was much easier when I was on Comm.

[Magneto_X]

lol sabrina

[Spiffy]

This weekend, I am heading to Clearwater and Scientology Central, with a video camera and a dream. Who wants to come with?.
You mean like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLZJBdvqAv8

That said, it probably needs to be done again...

Okay, there's some HEAVY stuff in this thread--rightfully so considering how truly dangerous these folks are. But here's at least ONE bit of levity:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nma7hmDpH1k

[Charles RB]

Hey, look! Book banning (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xF3Jg-FiZRA)!

Gee, I wonder why the German authorities are considering labelling the group unconstitutional and against the principles of democracy...

[Zengei]

Eh, I am pretty sure that Clearwater is still part of the US and that the right to walk the streets unhindered by nutjobs still holds true.
Unless they're having a "private function" on said street: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPol_m8wm8Y

[Charles RB]

A group of hackers are claiming (http://digg.com/programming/Scientology_s_secret_documents_hacked_by_i_s_Splon gcat) to have hacked the "Church" and borrowed some secret documents. Here's said docs. (http://www.xanga.com/lordxenu)

If this is true and not a hoax, DAMN that's some weird shit. Some stuff has been seen before - the Gorilla Goals are included - but still... yeeesh. AND it's bloody hard to read.

[Tommy]

I think of it as similar as the idea of the holy trinity or the body of Christ. If someone told you that as your very first exposure to Catholism, wouldn't you just laugh your ass off rather then believe in it? Instead those more strange aspects get introduced slowly and over time so its easier to believe and follow. I think Scientology simply does the same. Only instead their equilvilent of "Genesis" is at the end instead of the beginning.

All the churches I have ever attended recited the Apostle's Creed at every service.

I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
the Creator of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord:

Who was conceived of the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried.

He descended into hell.
The third day He arose again from the dead.
He ascended into heaven
and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty,
whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting.

Amen.

And all of them have the Eucharist at regular intervals. And all of them have Bibles around the church with which you can look up any text you wish (Genesis through Revelations). The church's socio-political stance might be a bit harder to find, but the basic doctrine is available enough. And I have yet to meet a priest or minister who wouldn't answer any question you had.

[Spiffy]

Geez, our discussion here appears to be timely.

Bonking around on YouTube I noticed what happens to be the currently highest rated and most discussed video:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=JCbKv9yiLiQ

Takes balls to post that video.

[Charles RB]

While I approve of their objectives, I'm actually quite worried that an anonymous group of hackers could pull off removing an organisation from the Internet. What happens when they look somewhere else?

EDIT: And why are half the comments "[This comment has been removed due to illegal action by the Cult of Scientology.]" ?

[Spiffy]

Bwah.

Even that "What the Buck" guy is commenting on this:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=c1QZErFsHyA

Also:

http://www.buckhollywood.com/buckblog/2008/01/21/10-words-that-should-be-used-bonus-video/

[Jack Zodiac]

Eh, I am pretty sure that Clearwater is still part of the US and that the right to walk the streets unhindered by nutjobs still holds true.

Want me to say "Hi" for you?

Actually, from what I've heard, they pretty much control the area of downtown Clearwater they own. They bought out every property they could and had the city reroute traffic on one of the major roads leading through the area making it like a "campus" of sorts. And every building is equipped with security cameras scanning the streets, not just the buildings or its entrances. So, yeah...

Like I said, man, they're practically a comic book supervillain group. Brain-washed fanatics? Crazy oaths and sayings? Its own military group? A "sovereign" city? All they need to do is slap Miscavige in an iron mask and it's a done fuckin' deal!

[Magneto_X]

They even their own Joker with Tom Cruise! :eek:

[Jack Zodiac]

Geez, our discussion here appears to be timely.

Bonking around on YouTube I noticed what happens to be the currently highest rated and most discussed video:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=JCbKv9yiLiQ

Takes balls to post that video.

No, no it doesn't. :p It's "Anonymous." It's some thirteen year old assface who posts on 4chan all day.

[Jack Zodiac]

Anyway, back to the main subject--what lower level Scientologists actually believe. I don't think this has been a big problem for them until recently, because even though its been up on the net for years, even just reading this thread I think you can see how few people KNOW to look for that information. The average person they hook with a free eMeter test, or free lecture or auditing session isn't gonna know. If they get into the cause I'm sure they are split into several groups--the complacent believers who are easy sheep, the eager beavers who they spot as eventual leaders, and finally the people who are spotted as "Potential Trouble Sources" who are either eased out or put into some holding pattern where they mysteriously never get any higher in their OT levels and thus can be safely assured that the Space Opera stuff is nonsense--because they will never get any higher and need to be told otherwise.

On top of that, Scientology offers its own web browser to its members that blocks content containing information about the church and labels it with error messages telling the member that the site they're trying to access has been labeled "hate speech" or to contain "lies" about Scientology, so if one's gullible enough to join the church and have the browser installed, they won't find anything even if they look for it anyway.

[quot]The real sharks at the top probably are eventually assured that what's really going on is their own little scheme to bilk the others out of money, and aliens have nothing to do with it, but I bet a big group in the middle believes the Xenu crap (and lies about it when asked), while the lower levels either STILL don't know about it, or think its bunk only because they'll never be squeezed hard enough for money to reach that middle level and need to believe it.[/QUOTE]

Y'know, I don't think that many members, even the higher-ups, don't believe in everything they learn in their Operating Thetan classes. L. Ron obviously knew he was full of shit, but all of his successors are people who were suckered into his circle anyway, or born into it. So when the leaders of Scientology are guys like David Miscavige, who was L. Ron's sidekick forever, and Tommy Whateverthatpussyface'snameis, who was born into it, I think that, even if they realize they're swindling people by charging them to join their church, they still actually, really believe this crazy shit.

[kingdom2000]

And all of them have the Eucharist at regular intervals. And all of them have Bibles around the church with which you can look up any text you wish (Genesis through Revelations). The church's socio-political stance might be a bit harder to find, but the basic doctrine is available enough. And I have yet to meet a priest or minister who wouldn't answer any question you had.

I am not trying attack your religion. I am simply pointing out that all religions have strange aspects to them. You are approaching from your years and years of being part of the religion. I am approaching this as if, me, as an adult, was seeking out a higher power was learning something weird from a religion that would turn me off.

For Scientology that story is Xenu and other aspects. By saving it for later, it becomes easier to accept and many probably do. If it was explained up front and center, I am betting they wouldn't have anyone in their religion.

To me (emphasis on me), if my very first exposure to Catholicism was the Holy Trinity and the Body of Christ, that would be a massive turn off. It does get explained, its part of the ceremony but I seriously doubt its the very first thing anyone is exposed to in the religion. Where you as a child or was the more faith based stories and "moral" stories emphasied and continue to be.

Same for Judiasm, with Passover (you know where the god didn't kill the first born of Jews but did of Egyptians) as an example, that would be a huge turn off.

Its all relative and all religions have wacky aspects that are not emphasied in the quest to convert new comers (re: adults, not children) and Scientology is no differnt. They are using tried and true tactics to build their base but adding the more base and manipulative aspects of their time such as sales tactics and throwing lawyers at the problem (basically think the 80s and what they do makes sense from that period of origin).

Its all relative, and while Hubbard is an ass that created a deceptive religion/cult, but he and the orginial leaders of the church where mighty smart about how they did it. They emphasis the more faith based, you are a great and worthy person and so forth over the wackier aspects. They basically combined the self-help crap of the time with religion to great effect.

[Jack Zodiac]

I don't know, I was baptized Catholic and brought up Catholic, and I knew about the Eucharist from as far back as I can remember my exposure to religion. It's part of the service- drinking the blood of Jesus and eating his flesh. Nothing hidden or slowly exposed, it's right up front there. I don't know about Judaism and the Passover, but still, it's something explained to all members of the church without any veiling or obfuscating involved.

Scientology and the "Incidents" or the things you learn upon its several "Operating Thetan" levels isn't just hidden, its forbidden knowledge exposed only to the members who achieve that level, and to achieve that level you have to pay inordinate amounts of money. You don't have to pay a dime to Christianity or Judaism to learn everything about it. And if you realize after a while that you don't believe in it any more, you don't have to be branded as an apostate and threatened not to expose the secrets of your former religion.

[Spiffy]

Its all relative and all religions have wacky aspects that are not emphasied in the quest to convert new comers (re: adults, not children) and Scientology is no differnt. They are using tried and true tactics to build their base but adding the more base and manipulative aspects of their time such as sales tactics and throwing lawyers at the problem (basically think the 80s and what they do makes sense from that period of origin).
Actually, there's plenty of evidence that those tactics have been part of the "Scientology deal" from Day #1. That's why they're a cult. They've evolved how they manipulate, lie, cheat, steal and intimidate, but its always been essential and part of their core doctrine.

Religion in general is subject to great abuse. There's great power in it and its been misused for more often that properly used. But Scientology is in a stage where it's actively hurting people, actively aggressively carrying out an agenda and spreading itself and its influence. If you HAVE to compare it to Catholicism, at the very least the version of the Church that sent people on Crusades to a foreign land to forcibly subjugate and convert people is a better comparison that the more relaxed and less aggressive entity which has replaced that. And the mere argument that with several hundred years Scientology could also be more "civilized" isn't really a comforting one.

Actually, from what I've heard, they pretty much control the area of downtown Clearwater they own. They bought out every property they could and had the city reroute traffic on one of the major roads leading through the area making it like a "campus" of sorts. And every building is equipped with security cameras scanning the streets, not just the buildings or its entrances. So, yeah...

Like I said, man, they're practically a comic book supervillain group. Brain-washed fanatics? Crazy oaths and sayings? Its own military group? A "sovereign" city? All they need to do is slap Miscavige in an iron mask and it's a done fuckin' deal!
Their "Gold Base" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_Base), Gilman Hot Springs, California, near Hemet, California sounds even scarier than Clearwater. From bits and pieces, it sounds like Miscavige runs it like its another country. Or even another planet.

This is the place where allegedly some people are treated practically like slaves. Willing slaves to some extent, but only if you discount the years of brainwashing many of them have supposedly undergone.

There's also the previously discussed Trementina Base (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trementina_Base), where apparently the nearby town of Trementina, New Mexico is completely owned lock, stock and barrel by the Scientologists. That's the one with the huge crop circles, vaults and bunkers carved into a mountain. Sort of like a "Dr. Evil" base. Including a private Airport they've convinced the FAA to take off all navigation databases and charts.

Wait... here's the overall list of places to avoid, unless you like filming annoying brainwashed security guards... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_Scientology#Churches.2C_missions_and_maj or_Scientology_centers

[Tommy]

For Scientology that story is Xenu and other aspects. By saving it for later, it becomes easier to accept and many probably do. If it was explained up front and center, I am betting they wouldn't have anyone in their religion.

To me (emphasis on me), if my very first exposure to Catholicism was the Holy Trinity and the Body of Christ, that would be a massive turn off. It does get explained, its part of the ceremony but I seriously doubt its the very first thing anyone is exposed to in the religion. Where you as a child or was the more faith based stories and "moral" stories emphasied and continue to be.

Same for Judiasm, with Passover (you know where the god didn't kill the first born of Jews but did of Egyptians) as an example, that would be a huge turn off.

Its all relative and all religions have wacky aspects that are not emphasied in the quest to convert new comers (re: adults, not children) and Scientology is no differnt. They are using tried and true tactics to build their base but adding the more base and manipulative aspects of their time such as sales tactics and throwing lawyers at the problem (basically think the 80s and what they do makes sense from that period of origin).
If you attend any church service you will hear about the Trinity. Anyone who spends a moment thinking about what they are saying or bothers to ask is going to know about the Trinity. As far as Passover "The Ten Commandments" has made eighty million dollars. That means a lot of people have seen it. And I am fairly certain Jewish temples spend considerable time talking about the Passover every year. That is fairly heavy emphasis. Even if someone was doing one on one proselytizing and leaving elements of Christianity out if there was any success in it the neophyte would probably attend a church service fairly early on. Where he would hear all the stuff about the Trinity. And then entire Bible is online. As is the Koran, and the Torah, and the Bhagavad-Gita. The information is freely available to anyone who wishes to view it.

The only places that the doctrine of Scientology are available are the anti-Scientology sites. And anyone wishing to learn the "official" version of it has to pay considerable amounts of money.

[DaeJi]

Words fail me. Also, I laughed a lot:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=pPol_m8wm8Y&feature=related

[Charles RB]

Like I said, man, they're practically a comic book supervillain group. Brain-washed fanatics? Crazy oaths and sayings? Its own military group? A "sovereign" city? All they need to do is slap Miscavige in an iron mask and it's a done fuckin' deal!

We need a comic about a dystopian future where the Scientologists rule a nation...

[Charles RB]

To me (emphasis on me), if my very first exposure to Catholicism was the Holy Trinity and the Body of Christ, that would be a massive turn off.

And, as has been pointed out to you multiple times now, that WOULD be in your first exposure. The first time you go to mass, you're exposed. And it's a facet of the church that they're very open about and everybody knows and they don't try to cover it up or make you pay to know about it, unlike Scientology.

And they emphasise it a lot, it's two of their central beliefs.

Same for Judiasm, with Passover (you know where the god didn't kill the first born of Jews but did of Egyptians) as an example, that would be a huge turn off.

Again, Judaism is open about Passover and what it is and they have it every year so you'd be exposed quite quickly & you don't have to pay to know about it - not comparable to Xenu.

[Sarah Beach]

Actually, from what I've heard, they pretty much control the area of downtown Clearwater they own. They bought out every property they could and had the city reroute traffic on one of the major roads leading through the area making it like a "campus" of sorts. And every building is equipped with security cameras scanning the streets, not just the buildings or its entrances. So, yeah...

Like I said, man, they're practically a comic book supervillain group. Brain-washed fanatics? Crazy oaths and sayings? Its own military group? A "sovereign" city? All they need to do is slap Miscavige in an iron mask and it's a done fuckin' deal!

A couple of years ago, there was a move to have the area of Hollywood separate from Los Angeles, and incorporate independantly. The problem is, that within the boundaries of the proposed city, there was very little in the way of major business -- that is companies whose home bases were located within the boundaries. Paramount was about it - just barely. So there was very little in the way of a solid tax base for the city. On top of which, guess who the major land-holder was within those boundaries? The Church of Scientology. They own a lot of property in Hollywood.

There was the distinct possibility that if Hollywood had incorporated, the city would have quickly ended up being run by the Scientologists.

The lack of a solid business base was one of the major things that (happily) defeated the measure. (Because no one really wanted to say out loud that they didn't want to live in the City of Scientology.)

I drive past the Hollywood Celebrity Center just about every day. The church owns at least three adjacent apartment buildings. Two of those buildings (rather large ones by Hollywood standards) basically stand empty of residents, because the church uses their parking as overflow for the Celebrity Center. One of the buildings was refurbished by church peons working off their auditing costs (or "slave labor" as I call it), and I think some of the refurbished apartments may be used for classrooms. But it's difficult to tell. Blinds are always drawn. But there are never lights on in any of the apartments at night.

It's kind of sickening to see, day after day, when apartment space is at a premium in Hollywood. On top of that, though the church does own other apartment buildings, which they fill up with their little zombies as tenants, those buildings are most usually ones that ... have NO parking spaces, being much older buildings.

One morning, several years ago, I happened to be driving a street that goes past their other big center, not quite two miles from the Celebrity Center. It was 8 in the morning, and as I drove along this street, I noticed bunches of people leaving their apartments, obviously heading off to work. It was a bit scary, though: right on the clock, like robots, out came these figures, with their pale blue shirts, tightly tucked into black slacks and skirts, with sensible shoes, all hitting the sidewalk and turning to march (well, not quite) the couple of blocks to the Scientology center. Zombies.

Every time I hear or read about Scientology "helping" people become more indepentant and free-thinking, I have to laugh, because I have NEVER seen such a completely conformist organization. Even girls wearing uniforms to Catholic school show more variety than Scientologists heading to work at the church and its various entities.

[Charles RB]

There was the distinct possibility that if Hollywood had incorporated, the city would have quickly ended up being run by the Scientologists.

There's a terrifying thought.

[kingdom2000]

If you attend any church service you will hear about the Trinity. Anyone who spends a moment thinking about what they are saying or bothers to ask is going to know about the Trinity. As far as Passover "The Ten Commandments" has made eighty million dollars. That means a lot of people have seen it. And I am fairly certain Jewish temples spend considerable time talking about the Passover every year. That is fairly heavy emphasis. Even if someone was doing one on one proselytizing and leaving elements of Christianity out if there was any success in it the neophyte would probably attend a church service fairly early on. Where he would hear all the stuff about the Trinity. And then entire Bible is online. As is the Koran, and the Torah, and the Bhagavad-Gita. The information is freely available to anyone who wishes to view it.

The only places that the doctrine of Scientology are available are the anti-Scientology sites. And anyone wishing to learn the "official" version of it has to pay considerable amounts of money.

The above is describing tactics to spread the religion, not the odd aspects of the religion itself.

I am simply pointing out that all religions have strange aspects. And yes to me, the concept of the Holy Trinity and body of Christ is very strange. Even after it was explained to me in a religion class, its still way out there to me. As is having a holiday that celebrates (indirectly) the death of children at the hand of god. And if check wiki and other definitions, they gloss over that God may have passed over the Jewish children, but not all children. Leaving that out makes the act seem not nearly as violent as it really was. The emphasis is that the Jewish children where saved and the people freed. Have to dig a little deeper (not much, but still) to learn the side effect.

Don't forget that just because you have internet access and seen the 10 commandments that the rest of the world does to Elsewhere, churches are taking very pro-active actions to spread their version of the word of god (Africa, etc).
And certain tactics are used so that those odder concepts are not people's very first exposure to a religion. That exposure may come a day or a week later, but I really doubt that converters go and say "have you heard about the holy trinity and the body of christ?". Usually they start on safer ground.

And yes I have been to a Catholic service and several others as part of a college class. Its part of the ceremony but if your not familiar with the religion, that ceremony doesn't seem so odd. Once its explained, well, you do see things in a whole new light (good or bad is up to the person).

Scientology's tactics are much much more extreme, dictarship type tactics that thankfully no other major religion uses in making sure that the odder elements of the religion elements don't come out until its way too late to back out.

So yes the tactics are different, but I still think all religions have strange aspects that new potential members are not aprised of until judged ready for it.

[Spiffy]

No, no it doesn't. :p It's "Anonymous." It's some thirteen year old assface who posts on 4chan all day.
Maybe, but go back and look at the activity on that video. People are taking it seriously, and in a way that's pretty good news. It really doesn't matter WHO it originally is, or even if they just came up with it as a joke.

Apparently people have been seeing that video and then flooding Scientology's websites to bring them down. Seriously.

If this was ANY kind of legitimate organization, I'd hate those tactics. But I think a lot of people are seeing the videos on YT, and reading the various Wikipedia pages, and going to Operation Clambake and finally seeing for the first time that this isn't Kabbalah or one of those other marginally kooky but essentially harmless "Hollywood things". Most people didn't even know that Hubbard was a wanted criminal. Or that he was a Satanist who never quite got out of that line. Or about
"Fair Game" or what it REALLY means to have a "Celebrity Center" and to try and recruit celebs aggressively to make your message appear both hip and harmless. Or that they own entire towns, and mountains. Or that they tried to infiltrate various branches of the government and in some cases (apparently the IRS) succeeded quite well. Or about the people that have died, admittedly mostly because Scientology denied them psychological treatment or medicine, although there are also the cases of people who they've tried to ruin (they may have succeeded in some cases). Or that they've got a "department" just for illegal dirty tricks that still exists to this day. Or that their leader lives like a king on a huge town-sized estate, with legions of slave-like followers.

Hmm. There are some interesting YouTube channels popping up:

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=CultofScientology
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=xenutv1

Xenu TV was apparently up under the username xenutv (without the 1) but got taken down by YT after The Church of Scientology threatened them.


EDIT - I may have to personally re-evaluate how harmless Kabbalah is too. After reading some of this... http://www.freedomofmind.com/stevehassan/presskit/releases/05-03.htm

Again, it appears to be a case of "pay for enlightenment", although at least they don't appear to have the muscle and established "destruction to our enemies" philosophy of Scientology.

[Sally Sensational]

The thing about Kabbalah is that the documents are out there for anyone to buy at the local Barnes & Noble. I don't know how much is freely available on the intarwebs, but I would imagine a search would turn up quite a bit. As for "paying for knowledge", there is no one right way to study and work the Kabbalah. There MAY have been, back when it was limited (according to texts) to a few highly educated Jewish mystics. However, the Kabbalah that Madonna and the other celebrities study is easily and readily available and only considered the "official" Kabbalah by the people who study it at that center with that group.

http://www.kabblah.info offers many courses for free. You simply download the video lessons. Donations are accepted and the books cost money, but the info is out there for the taking.

[Dark Galaxy]

I don't know if anyone has posted this link (http://www.cracked.com/article_14932_top-10-secret-celebrity-scientologists.html) yet. But it sucks.

Jason Lee!?!

C'mon. I love that guy:mad:

[Lester C.]

I don't know if anyone has posted this link (http://www.cracked.com/article_14932_top-10-secret-celebrity-scientologists.html) yet. But it sucks.

Jason Lee!?!

C'mon. I love that guy:mad:

Just because a person joins a cult doesn't mean that they stay there and won't move on to bigger and better things. Look at Joe Strazinski, the creator of Babylon 5. In the Midnight Nation Trade he addmitted that he was in a cult, which is something I would never have expected from him. I'm sure in time Jason Lee will also come to his senses, maybe even Tom Cruise. You never know what the future will bring.

[Ninja Kris]

Here (http://www.funnyordie.com/) is another link. Good parody of the Scientology video.

Time-Traveling Lesbian is funny, too.

[Jack Zodiac]

I don't know if anyone has posted this link (http://www.cracked.com/article_14932_top-10-secret-celebrity-scientologists.html) yet. But it sucks.

Jason Lee!?!

C'mon. I love that guy:mad:

I was more depressed when Patrick told me Parker Lewis was lost. :(

[Charles RB]

Scientology - intimidating people from walking around on a public street with a camera since 1999! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REr7XfoiKrs)

I love how the guys around the 2 minute mark immediately start with aggressive "What have you done?! WHY ARE YOU AFRAID?!" and being physically intimidating - I wonder if they want to provoke violence...

[DaeJi]

I don't know if anyone has posted this link (http://www.cracked.com/article_14932_top-10-secret-celebrity-scientologists.html) yet. But it sucks.

Jason Lee!?!

C'mon. I love that guy:mad:

My heart is broken. :(

[Spiffy]

My heart is broken. :(
Even worse for me is knowing that BART SIMPSON is part of this cult. I mean somehow you'd think the voice of such a cynical character would know better. But alas, Nancy Cartwright is part of the Kook Squad. Maybe a lot lower key than Cruise or Jenna Elfman or Leah Remini or Revolta or many of the others, but still right there.

Also, as many may recall both Elvis' wife and Elvis' daughter are part of the flock. Although frankly since he was a bit kooky at times himself, it surprises me that Elvis himself didn't join before he died.

I mean its impossible to argue that these celebs don't know about the dark side of Scientology at all. Sure, they aren't personally subject to it, getting the happy peppy non-oppressive celebrity version, but the knowledge about how the rest live has GOT to soak through at least a bit--particularly with all the mainstream coverage its been getting. If this was just about these folks believing in alien mind-control and superpowers, that would be one thing. But add all of the abusive cult-like dirty tricks, violence, money laundering, power games, etc. and you wonder HOW they can ignore all of it. What level of gullibility it would take to buy Scientology HQs standard line that these allegations are all coming from liars and/or oppressive forces in the government being covertly controlled by the heirs of Xenu.

My conclusion is that a LOT of these celebs have to be being blackmailed with those auditor tapes. A lot.

[DaeJi]

I mean its impossible to argue that they don't know about the dark side of Scientology at all. Sure, they aren't personally subject to it, getting the happy peppy non-oppressive celebrity version, but the knowledge about how the rest live has GOT to soak through at least a bit--particularly with all the mainstream coverage its been getting.

My conclusion is that a LOT of these people have to be being blackmailed with those auditor tapes. A lot.

I think it's more the brainwashing Scientologist do.

[Spiffy]

I think it's more the brainwashing Scientologist do.
In the case of the celebs "born" into it, sure. Danny Masterson (Hyde on "That 70s Show") and Chris Masterson (Francis on "Malcolm in the Middle"), Jason Dohring (Logan on "Vernoica Mars"), Erika Christensen and Giovanni Ribisi, among others.

Not sure I buy it as much with the legions who joined up later in life. Some may be weak-minded (Jenna Elfman comes to mind, as do Lisa Marie Presley and Laura Prepon) but Jason Lee? He doesn't really strike me as a gullible dummy. Or Greta Van Susteren? Sure she works for FOX, but even that doesn't make her THAT stupid.

[PatrickG]

I was more depressed when Patrick told me Parker Lewis was lost. :(

Parker Lewis (Corin Nemec) is fine as far as I know. It's Ferris Bueller who took the day off.

[Magneto_X]

I think it's more the brainwashing Scientologist do.

Supposedly Cruise left a few years ago. He disappeared for about two weeks after that and is back in their ranks once he reappears again.

[kingdom2000]

I am thinking some hollywood types join for access, hoping to use the church to get better deals and the like. Don't know why, its not exactly A list but then why do some celebs do playboy.

[the4thpip]

My conclusion is that a LOT of these celebs have to be being blackmailed with those auditor tapes. A lot.

I was thinking the same thing about Isaac Hayes this morning. You just know he had a wild sex life in the 70s.

[Charles RB]

My conclusion is that a LOT of these celebs have to be being blackmailed with those auditor tapes. A lot.

Or they're going "the alleged bad stuff's not happening to me and isn't openly occuring in front of me, so I shall ignore it".

[PatrickG]

I was thinking the same thing about Isaac Hayes this morning. You just know he had a wild sex life in the 70s.

It's hard to imagine any of it would embarrass him though.

I picture the situation going down something like this:

REPORTER: Sources within the Church of Scientology claim that in the 1970s, you were involved in a number of questionable sexual practices.

*cue wokkachikkawokkachikka*

HAYES: Ohhhhh yeah.

REPORTER: Witnesses claim you had unprotected sex with seven prostitutes, three of whom were geriatric men.

HAYES: That's right...

REPORTER: And that you had intercourse with a koala?

HAYES: Right on. Daddy like.

REPORTER: What about claims that you defaced a graveyard and made an assassination attempt on Jimmy Carter while high on PCP with a squirrel in your underwear?

BACKUP SINGERS: Ooohh. Pleadin' the fifth!

HAYES: Heh heh! Ohhhh... Not gonna say!

Look at Tom Cruise's career. What can they blackmail you with? Somebody could be guilty of anything shy of murder one and I'd be more impressed with them leaving Scientology amidst accusations than staying in that wacky space opera cartel.

[Tommy]

Look at Tom Cruise's career. What can they blackmail you with? Somebody could be guilty of anything shy of murder one and I'd be more impressed with them leaving Scientology amidst accusations than staying in that wacky space opera cartel.

Actually the Church has kept some of Cruise's wacky behavior under wraps. Allegedly they paid off a male prostitute in the Netherlands who was going to go public with evidence of a sexual liaison between him and Cruise.

[singoalla]

We obviously need to take armoured tanks and weapons into Hollywood and save these poor people from themselves. Or at least forbid them to speak about being a part of it.

[PatrickG]

Actually the Church has kept some of Cruise's wacky behavior under wraps. Allegedly they paid off a male prostitute in the Netherlands who was going to go public with evidence of a sexual liaison between him and Cruise.

So? Seriously.

Which is worse?

Gay Tom Cruise or cackling, batshit loco, couch jumping, may-december, deathgrip, antipsychologist, acronymaholic Tom Cruise?

Women love gay men. Not so sure they love guys who laugh maniacally, use weird acronyms, compare shrinks to Nazis and talk about eliminating their enemies.

Though, frankly, most gay men I know probably fall into the latter category too.

[TCJohnson]

So? Seriously.

Which is worse?

Gay Tom Cruise or cackling, batshit loco, couch jumping, may-december, deathgrip, antipsychologist, acronymaholic Tom Cruise?

Women love gay men. Not so sure they love guys who laugh maniacally, use weird acronyms, compare shrinks to Nazis and talk about eliminating their enemies.

Though, frankly, most gay men I know probably fall into the latter category too.

Actually, I think the "being with a prostitute" thing is the worse part. If it is true.

[Rattlehead]

Even worse for me is knowing that BART SIMPSON is part of this cult. I mean somehow you'd think the voice of such a cynical character would know better. But alas, Nancy Cartwright is part of the Kook Squad. Maybe a lot lower key than Cruise or Jenna Elfman or Leah Remini or Revolta or many of the others, but still right there.

Also, as many may recall both Elvis' wife and Elvis' daughter are part of the flock. Although frankly since he was a bit kooky at times himself, it surprises me that Elvis himself didn't join before he died.

Elvis did meet with them, but walked out when he found out how much money they wanted. I'm sure the no drugs thing was a huge turn-off for him too.

[Tommy]

So? Seriously.

Since it happened in the early to mid 90's it would have been a much bigger deal than it would be today. That revelation would have done sever damage to his career.

Actually one of the fun fun silly willy ideas of Scientology is that they can cure the gay right out of you. It wouldn't do to have a high profile member engaged in sodomy.

Another point to consider is that apparently Tom Cruise was always this batshit insane, only he had a REALLY FUCKING GOOD publicist who kept a tight reign on him at all times. She made sure no one would get an interview with him if she thought they would ask the wrong kinds of questions. But Tom fired her, allegedly because he wanted to talk more openly about Scientology, and replaced her with his relative, whose only qualification was that she was a scientologist, and the rest is history.

[PatrickG]

Actually, I think the "being with a prostitute" thing is the worse part. If it is true.

Who really cares aside from religious people?

And anybody who's genuinely religious might have bigger issues with a quack cult, I'd hope.

[Rattlehead]

Who really cares aside from religious people?

And anybody who's genuinely religious might have bigger issues with a quack cult, I'd hope.

Considering Cruise is in the summer blockbuster business, coming out would be a huge blow to his wallet. Idiots would boycott. Money is more addicting than any drug, especially for people like him who literally swim in it.

[TCJohnson]

Who really cares aside from religious people?

And anybody who's genuinely religious might have bigger issues with a quack cult, I'd hope.

Prostitution is not something a lot of people would accept.

[Jack Zodiac]

Prostitution is not something a lot of people would accept.

I'm cool wit' it.

I ain't cool with cults. Even cults full of prostitutes.

*has a brilliant idea!*

[Lester C.]

I don't think Tom Cruise is gay. While he's suffering a decline in the past couple of years, Cruise spent two decades as the most bankable star in Hollywood and under the most intense spotlight. If he was gay sooner or later someone would have exposed him as such, as someone exposed the fact that he is nuts.