So did "The Other" happen in the Brand New Day?

[Choppa]

The simple answer is no it didn't because Mephisto undid that. But can he actually change Peter's physiology? His powers are completely different now, no more strikers on his back, organic webshooters, or the spikes in his hands, so does he still have them and just hasn't discovered them?

And more importantly, as I understood it, "The Other" retconned the origin so that Peter didn't get his powers from the spider, but from the Spider Gods or whatever. All Mephisto did was undo recent events, so doesn't that mean that the new origin still applies?

Sorry if this has already been discussed or answered.

[Blader5489]

And more importantly, as I understood it, "The Other" retconned the origin so that Peter didn't get his powers from the spider, but from the Spider Gods or whatever.

Wasn't really a retcon, as it didn't change a preexisting story. Whether or not the origin was the result of a spider god or pure chance depends on your point of view. In the Other, Peter received new powers and a new lease on life because he accepted help from the spider totem.

[DeadXMan]

Just so glad the got rid of the stingers and the organic web shooters.

[Noronha]

Just so glad the got rid of the stingers and the organic web shooters.

Well the organic shooters were from Disassembled writen by Jenkins,not from The Other.

[RodeoWearden]

I liked the organic webshooters. I like the mechanical ones too, but I liked to see Peter evolve. The stingers were a little weird, but I liked them too.

I just hate how this thing happened. All these huge things happened in Peter Parker's life in the past couple years. His death, his evolution, his unmasking, and now it all of a sudden didnt happen. The next time something huge happens, how can we take it seriously when we know that it can be taken back? The reason it becomes a huge thing is because we know it will have ramifications in the character's lives permanently. Now...it cheapens the whole effect.

[Roquefort Raider]

I believe the official stance is that it happened, but the aspects of it pertaining to Peter's identity have been wiped from the memory of all participants.

The physiological effects on Peter seem to have been undone, but I'd assume that they were once very real.

And no, I don't like this explanation one bit... :(

[ShaggyB]

I just hate how this thing happened. All these huge things happened in Peter Parker's life in the past couple years. His death, his evolution, his unmasking, and now it all of a sudden didnt happen. The next time something huge happens, how can we take it seriously when we know that it can be taken back? The reason it becomes a huge thing is because we know it will have ramifications in the character's lives permanently. Now...it cheapens the whole effect.

I hate to say it but thats the nature of comic books. Only two deaths in comics have ever really stuck. (Uncle Ben, and The Flash/Barry Allen) Characters Origins, entire persona's are changed to meet new writers needs. No one is safe from it, hell when i quit spidey the first time... Aunt may had just died. Imagine my surprise to find her alive again after 10 years.

I wouldnt get bent out of shape or loose faith in spidey over this.... Im sure it will get un-done again. Hell they left it wide open for it. (also make not that Amazing Spider-Girl title cant happen without pete and mj.)

[Tater]

It all still happened, Peter just forgot about it. Do you even read the books? Better yet, do you even read Quesada's explainations of what happened in the books? I suggest you start paying attention.

[vitruvian]

It all still happened, Peter just forgot about it.

So, Peter could have the stingers pop out at any time, he just doesn't know it?

[ZT4]

It all still happened, Peter just forgot about it. Do you even read the books? Better yet, do you even read Quesada's explainations of what happened in the books? I suggest you start paying attention.

I suggest he actually avoids BND like the proverbial plauge.

[XPac]

It all still happened, Peter just forgot about it. Do you even read the books? Better yet, do you even read Quesada's explainations of what happened in the books? I suggest you start paying attention.

Time will tell whether he just forgot, or whether he is still actually changed.

It really shouldn't take long for him to notice at least SOME of his new powers, if in fact he still has them.

And did Harry Osborne just forget that he's dead?

[vitruvian]

And did Harry Osborne just forget that he's dead?

Yeah - as soon as he remembers, a decomposed corpse drops in his place.

[Blader5489]

So, Peter could have the stingers pop out at any time, he just doesn't know it?

Assuming he still has them, I would guess no. Aside from the obvious reasons of writers not wanting to revisit The Other, the stingers only came out when Spidey fought someone who had some kind of connection to the spider totem (like Morlun and Ero).

[ShaggyB]

And did Harry Osborne just forget that he's dead?

Shhh dont blow readers minds like that. If they know you just dont have to believe you are dead to be alive then what will the world come to?

[matthewaos]

Shhh dont blow readers minds like that. If they know you just dont have to believe you are dead to be alive then what will the world come to?

My head just exploded.

[lazlo_toth]

It all still happened, Peter just forgot about it. Do you even read the books? Better yet, do you even read Quesada's explainations of what happened in the books? I suggest you start paying attention.

Yeah, we were all paying attention, wise-ass, we all read Joey Q.'s explanation, the problem with it is that it's totally unsatisfactory and doesn't explain a damn thing. So everybody forgot that Harry Osborn is dead, therefore he just pops back to life? My question to you is have you read any Spider-Man titles in the last 20 years? Because even if you just skim over it in a half-ass manner you'll come up with about a dozen gigantic holes in the "it just happened" theory. It's an incredibly lazy and intellectually sloppy way to handle a problem many readers don't accept is a problem in the first place. It's so bad that even readers who are perfectly happy to see peter and MJ split up aren't able to swallow the way it went down. There's way too many things that couldn't have happened the way they did without Peter and MJ being hitched.

Did you ask JQ what was in that Kool-Aid before you drank it?

[Blader5489]

And did Harry Osborne just forget that he's dead?

No, he just didn't die period. Instead of dying, he goes into rehab in Europe.

Just my own theory, of course, but Steve Wacker's words seem to support it.

[ShaggyB]

No, he just didn't die period. Instead of dying, he goes into rehab in Europe.

Just my own theory, of course, but Steve Wacker's words seem to support it.

True but what we need is a list of changes and retcons.

We need to know what stands and what didnt.

And i ask this WHY DID HE JUST NOT REGISTER???

This oops you all forgot stuff is insanely bad written. Like JJ would forget it was parker being it was his life mission to expose spideys identity. I mean come on. Sure its magic but thats just lame. Why not re-write a bit of civil war and have pete join cap from the start.

[Roquefort Raider]

And i ask this WHY DID HE JUST NOT REGISTER???


... He forgot.

[Spiffy]

It all still happened, Peter just forgot about it. Do you even read the books? Better yet, do you even read Quesada's explainations of what happened in the books? I suggest you start paying attention.
Right. So, for example, he still has the night vision he got as an enhancement and yet doesn't notice it because he forgot!

Oh wait. That makes NO sense, since it was automatic.

Or his improved Spider-Sense. Apparently he "forgot" that into not working.

Oh wait.

[vitruvian]

No, he just didn't die period. Instead of dying, he goes into rehab in Europe.

If that's truly what happened, as opposed to how everybody remembers it, then Mephisto did in fact change the past. If he was able to change the actual past in this one respect, then, why not make *all* the changes in time and not just in memory, as Quesada has indicated?

Why not re-write a bit of civil war and have pete join cap from the start.

Agreed. Everything would be a lot cleaner (although still a massive retcon) if they'd simply said he never unmasked as far as anybody's concerned. That way, there are no funky questions about why JJJ isn't going crazy over not being able to remember details, do people who figured out his ID ages ago still remember, and so on. He doesn't even necessarily have to have started out on Cap's side; Stark could have just found another poster boy for registration, or done without one in preaching his message.

Hey, here's a good one. What about Madame Web, whose whole raison d'etre from her very first appearance has been knowing Spidey's secret ID telepathically? If she forgot his ID as well, is she unable to telepathically learn it again the next time she tries to contact him mind to mind?

[Spiffy]

Hey, here's a good one. What about Madame Web, whose whole raison d'etre from her very first appearance has been knowing Spidey's secret ID telepathically? If she forgot his ID as well, is she unable to telepathically learn it again the next time she tries to contact him mind to mind?
My assumption has been that we may never see Madame Web again, or at least not for a good long time.

But that doesn't solve the Professor X/Emma Frost problem does it? Or the mystical equivalent with Doctor Strange.

[Blader5489]

True but what we need is a list of changes and retcons.

Pete and MJ never married, but they were in a serious relationship; baby May was never conceived; Harry didn't die after Spectacular #200 and, instead, went into rehab (since he has no memory of being the GG, I'm guessing he chalked up his near death experience to another drug overdose and decided to get some help).

Everything else still happened, though things relating to Pete's identity have been forgotten, just like with what happened to the Sentry.

And i ask this WHY DID HE JUST NOT REGISTER???

They explain this in JRJR status quo page. Pete didn't register with the SHRA because he didn't want to reveal his identity to the world.

Or at least, that's how everyone remembers it. That's not what actually happened, but it's what everyone thinks.

[lazlo_toth]

Or at least, that's how everyone remembers it. That's not what actually happened, but it's what everyone thinks.


Actually they kind of remember him unmasking, but doggone it if they can't quite recall who it was under the mask. You'd think something big like that would stand out in SOMEBODY'S memory...

[lazlo_toth]

If that's truly what happened, as opposed to how everybody remembers it, then Mephisto did in fact change the past. If he was able to change the actual past in this one respect, then, why not make *all* the changes in time and not just in memory, as Quesada has indicated?



Everything would be a lot cleaner (although still a massive retcon) if they'd simply said he never unmasked as far as anybody's concerned. That way, there are no funky questions about why JJJ isn't going crazy over not being able to remember details, do people who figured out his ID ages ago still remember, and so on. He doesn't even necessarily have to have started out on Cap's side; Stark could have just found another poster boy for registration, or done without one in preaching his message.



Everything would have been a lot cleaner if they'd just not even gone in this direction in the first place and come up with a better idea than to regress Spider-Man 25-30 years into the past. Considering that a good many of the huge plot twists in the Spider titles were put in place with the deliberate intent on wiping them out with OMD, I frankly don't trust these guys to be able to resist pulling the same stunt again and again. The problem with swallowing OMD/BND wholesale is that you are rewarding Marvel for cheaply manipulating you and terrible story-telling; the message you're sending is that you're OK with that and that you'll be OK with it in the future. There's a part of me that genuinely wishes I could just drink the Kool-aid like everyone else and go along with this. But I can't; there's just too much that's wrong with this and frankly, nobody on earth is going to convince me that Peter parker living in Aunt May's house and being broke and out of work again is progress, or in any way fresh and new.

[Phil Hunn]

And did Harry Osborne just forget that he's dead?

Hey, it worked for Agatha Harkness.

This oops you all forgot stuff is insanely bad written. Like JJ would forget it was parker being it was his life mission to expose spideys identity. I mean come on. Sure its magic but thats just lame.

Superboy's retcon-punch actually makes more sense than this mess.

Right. So, for example, he still has the night vision he got as an enhancement and yet doesn't notice it because he forgot!

Oh wait. That makes NO sense, since it was automatic.

Or his improved Spider-Sense. Apparently he "forgot" that into not working.

Oh wait.

Mephisto is apparently an expert geneticist, it would seem...

Actually they kind of remember him unmasking, but doggone it if they can't quite recall who it was under the mask. You'd think something big like that would stand out in SOMEBODY'S memory...

And what about all the hundreds of thousands of press cameras, camera-phones and suchlike that must have taken pictures of the guy?

But I can't; there's just too much that's wrong with this and frankly, nobody on earth is going to convince me that Peter parker living in Aunt May's house and being broke and out of work again is progress, or in any way fresh and new.

Exactly. This is not progress in the slightest, and no amount of "fun" storytelling by any of the BND writers will convince me otherwise.

[DeadXMan]

Assuming he still has them, I would guess no. Aside from the obvious reasons of writers not wanting to revisit The Other, the stingers only came out when Spidey fought someone who had some kind of connection to the spider totem (like Morlun and Ero).

he used them against cap as well

[ShaggyB]

They explain this in JRJR status quo page. Pete didn't register with the SHRA because he didn't want to reveal his identity to the world.

Or at least, that's how everyone remembers it. That's not what actually happened, but it's what everyone thinks.

Really, i will go back an re-read that. I read it as he did all those things then everyone forgot.

Guess ill just re-read that with the next issue too.

[DarKye]

he used them against cap as well

What? When?

If you're talking about the Civil War fight, he used the Iron Spider enhancements, not his stingers.

--

And anyway, I think the official stance on stuff like this is "It happened, but you'll see baby May around before we bring it up in a story again"

[Taniwha]

he next time something huge happens, how can we take it seriously when we know that it can be taken back?

You can't. Which is why this storyline and retcon is basically cancerous to the readership.

[vitruvian]

You can't. Which is why this storyline and retcon is basically cancerous to the readership.

In any case, this bridge has already been crossed. Back when Spidey unmasked in CW, Quesada promised that they wouldn't undo it - and under the heading of undoing it, he specifically *included* memory wipes. Now, we have a magical memory wipe, if not an outright alteration of history. Therefore, we can unequivocally say that Quesada lied, and that you can't trust him to keep *any* major changes that occur in the books.

[Phil Hunn]

In any case, this bridge has already been crossed. Back when Spidey unmasked in CW, Quesada promised that they wouldn't undo it - and under the heading of undoing it, he specifically *included* memory wipes. Now, we have a magical memory wipe, if not an outright alteration of history. Therefore, we can unequivocally say that Quesada lied, and that you can't trust him to keep *any* major changes that occur in the books.

Ah, but there lies Quesada's out right there - it wasn't a memory wipe, it was historical tinkering! Everything happened just the way you remember it... only not.

Dear oh dear...

[vitruvian]

Ah, but there lies Quesada's out right there - it wasn't a memory wipe, it was historical tinkering! Everything happened just the way you remember it... only not.

Well.... no, actually. Quesada says in these latest interviews that he did unmask, that people vaguely remember it but can't recall who was under the mask. And here's what he said to the LA Times, back when:

"It can be very intimidating if you don't know where the story is going or how it ends; we do, so we're just excited about where it takes us and the story possibilities it offers," Joe Quesada, Marvel's editor-in-chief, said Wednesday.He also promised that Marvel won't be backing-off of Spidey's big revelation by zapping the public with a forget-me ray or saying the press conference was a dream or a hoax.

So, there is no out for Quesada that I can see.

[Phil Hunn]

Well.... no, actually. Quesada says in these latest interviews that he did unmask, that people vaguely remember it but can't recall who was under the mask.

Yes, I saw that on that silly crib sheet they prepared. Right next to a text box saying that Peter was an unlicenced, unregistered superhero who has no intention of registering.

If he's unregistered, then why did he unmask? Wouldn't it be easier to say "he didn't unmask after all" than go through that stupidity?

... wait. This is Quesada's Marvel. Stupidity is their stock in trade.

Le sigh.

[Spiffy]

Mephisto is apparently an expert geneticist, it would seem...
Oh, even if he is, there's still Joe Q's statement that everything still happened it just got forgotten. Because "forgotten" in Quesadaese obviously means the same thing as "X came back from the dead, Y erased all the video footage and edited all the news stories and Z hacked into Pete's genes and made his body 'forget' his DNA got rewritten".

Oh never mind.

It's magic!

[Taniwha]

In any case, this bridge has already been crossed. Back when Spidey unmasked in CW, Quesada promised that they wouldn't undo it - and under the heading of undoing it, he specifically *included* memory wipes. Now, we have a magical memory wipe, if not an outright alteration of history. Therefore, we can unequivocally say that Quesada lied, and that you can't trust him to keep *any* major changes that occur in the books.

Yep. He flat out lied to people, which is no surprise, I mean, hey, I can imagine him simply wanting to not let the cat out of the bag, but he went so far as to flat out DETAILED lie and say "This won't happen, that won't happen, Spidey will be living with the consequences of the unmasking for years, blah blah blah, pies."

But he'll always have a dedicated fan in Cyberman!

[darkness85]

Well, he has web-shooters instead of organic webs now.

[Cody H]

but he went so far as to flat out DETAILED lie and say "This won't happen, that won't happen, Spidey will be living with the consequences of the unmasking for years, blah blah blah, pies."Technically, he is still living with the consequences of the unmasking. If he hadn't unmasked, Aunt May wouldn't have been shot and there would've been no need to make the deal with Memphisto. Basically, the unmasking led to OMD and put us right where we are now. So, albeit indirectly, Spidey's still living with the consequences of the unmasking.

Not sure about the "blah, blah, blah, pies" comment though. Maybe Joe was hungry...?

[Taniwha]

Technically, he is still living with the consequences of the unmasking. If he hadn't unmasked, Aunt May wouldn't have been shot and there would've been no need to make the deal with Memphisto. Basically, the unmasking led to OMD and put us right where we are now. So, albeit indirectly, Spidey's still living with the consequences of the unmasking.

Not sure about the "blah, blah, blah, pies" comment though. Maybe Joe was hungry...?

I don't buy "indirectly" living with the consequences. Your explanation falls in the realm of "apologism".

Maybe Joe was hungry? Maybe. Yes, maybe he was. PIES. YOM.

[Choppa]

Sorry but I'm still not clear. It sounds like some of you are saying that history was actually changed. That would explain how Norman has a history in the period between his death and now, and how Peter has mechanical webshooters instead of organic ones.

But from JQ's comments and what others are saying, it seems pretty clear that everything did happen and history didn't change at all. That's why there are references to the Registration Act and JQ's comments about people having forgotten who was under Peter's mask at the unmasking.

So if history wasnt' changed, how can Norman still have a history and Peter be physically different? Technically, since Mephisto only undid the unmasking (?) then Harry should have appeared out of nowhere since the past isn't changed, only the future. So what gives? I'm sorry if there is a very obvious answer to all of this, but I'm only a casual reader and only have a general knowledge of the recent events.

[Cody H]

I don't buy "indirectly" living with the consequences. Your explanation falls in the realm of "apologism".I'm not sure how my explanation falls in the realm of apologism, could you please explain? (I'm not trying to be defensive here, I really don't get it.) Perhaps I'm just not clear on the term.Maybe Joe was hungry? Maybe. Yes, maybe he was. PIES. YOM.You can fault Joe for a lot of things, but love of pies isn't one of them. Who doesn't love pies?Sorry but I'm still not clear. It sounds like some of you are saying that history was actually changed. That would explain how Norman has a history in the period between his death and now, and how Peter has mechanical webshooters instead of organic ones.

But from JQ's comments and what others are saying, it seems pretty clear that everything did happen and history didn't change at all. That's why there are references to the Registration Act and JQ's comments about people having forgotten who was under Peter's mask at the unmasking.

So if history wasnt' changed, how can Norman still have a history and Peter be physically different? Technically, since Mephisto only undid the unmasking (?) then Harry should have appeared out of nowhere since the past isn't changed, only the future. So what gives? I'm sorry if there is a very obvious answer to all of this, but I'm only a casual reader and only have a general knowledge of the recent events.Yeah, don't be sorry, there really, really aren't any simple answers to all this. Far as I can tell, there's still no real explanation as to how Harry is alive or why Pete doesn't have organic web-shooters, among other things.

[nuclearman]

.clear as mud.

I'm just going to forget what has happened in the past and just read amazing spiderman ... it's hard but I'm going to do it.

[Taniwha]

I'm not sure how my explanation falls in the realm of apologism, could you please explain? (I'm not trying to be defensive here, I really don't get it.) Perhaps I'm just not clear on the term.

Sorry, perhaps I should have said "apologetics". I was referring to it in the sense of religious apologetics, those who presupposed and defend a faith by tortuously making excuses to back up or explain the claims of a faith.

Meaning, basically, that saying "well, Spidey's paying for the unmasking which now never happened" is a stretch of the kind more commonly found in Plastic-Man than Spider-Man, a tenuous argument at best. Whether you were joking or not, the argument that Joey Q didn't lie about Spidey 'living with unmasking for years to come" is hardly defended by tying the undoing of the unmasking to the unmasking.

I was more attacking the idea of defending Joe "I'll have another Pie on top of that Pie please" Quesada's misleading of his audience with the whole "WE PROMISE WE WON'T MINDWIPE RETCON THIS AWAY" lie.

Pie. THE PIE IS A LIE! CAKE AND PIES HOMPTH HOMPTH!

[Cody H]

Sorry, perhaps I should have said "apologetics". I was referring to it in the sense of religious apologetics, those who presupposed and defend a faith by tortuously making excuses to back up or explain the claims of a faith.Ahh, gotcha. I see what you're getting at.Meaning, basically, that saying "well, Spidey's paying for the unmasking which now never happened" is a stretch of the kind more commonly found in Plastic-Man than Spider-Man, a tenuous argument at best. Whether you were joking or not, the argument that Joey Q didn't lie about Spidey 'living with unmasking for years to come" is hardly defended by tying the undoing of the unmasking to the unmasking.I wasn't really joking so much as I was playing "devil's advocate." I mean, when you summarize it like, 'Joe promised not to mindwipe the unmasking' and then two years later, they've mindwipped the unmasking' then there's no denying that he lied. I was trying to take the stance that there was at least some truth to the statement "he'll be living with the consequences for years to come" as the unmasking technically did happen, but for all intents and purposes, it might as well not have, as nobody remembers it. For the record, I find that as lame as the next person, but apparently that's what we've got.I was more attacking the idea of defending Joe "I'll have another Pie on top of that Pie please" Quesada's misleading of his audience with the whole "WE PROMISE WE WON'T MINDWIPE RETCON THIS AWAY" lie.See, I guess I'm not really annoyed with being lied to as much as I'm annoyed that we got such a shitty story out of all this. To me, if there was a semi-plausible, creative, and compelling way of mindwiping away the unmasking, I'd be okay with the lie (that's just me though).Pie. THE PIE IS A LIE! CAKE AND PIES HOMPTH HOMPTH!First pies and now cake? This may very be the tastiest thread on CBR!

[vitruvian]

I'm not sure how my explanation falls in the realm of apologism, could you please explain? (I'm not trying to be defensive here, I really don't get it.) Perhaps I'm just not clear on the term.

Even if we accept OMD/BND as a 'consequence', that's only part of what Quesada said. He also said that they would not undo the event, including the use of 'forget-me rays'. Mephisto made everybody forget who Spider-Man is, ergo Quesada lied. I don't really see any wiggle room here.

Not that I'm mad about it. As an earlier poster said, the bigger crime is what a crappy story OMD was, and the issues this introduces keeping BND integrated with the rest of the MU, especially the New Avengers. However, I am enjoying Dan Slott on ASM so far.

Anybody notice that at least one person is just remembering the names on some credit cards away from knowing the secret ID?

[Kid Kyoto]

What? When?

If you're talking about the Civil War fight, he used the Iron Spider enhancements, not his stingers.


But how did he become Iron Spidey if Iron Man never knew his ID and for that matter why did he become Iron Spidey if the Other never happened... and uh...

(head explodes)

[ShaggyB]

Sorry but I'm still not clear. It sounds like some of you are saying that history was actually changed. That would explain how Norman has a history in the period between his death and now, and how Peter has mechanical webshooters instead of organic ones.

But from JQ's comments and what others are saying, it seems pretty clear that everything did happen and history didn't change at all. That's why there are references to the Registration Act and JQ's comments about people having forgotten who was under Peter's mask at the unmasking.

So if history wasnt' changed, how can Norman still have a history and Peter be physically different? Technically, since Mephisto only undid the unmasking (?) then Harry should have appeared out of nowhere since the past isn't changed, only the future. So what gives? I'm sorry if there is a very obvious answer to all of this, but I'm only a casual reader and only have a general knowledge of the recent events.

Mephisto didnt just change the unmasking, he took away the marriage also. I guess pete being married to MJ directly effected the death of Harry

[Choppa]

I guess my real question is did Mephisto change the past or alter the present and have people remember the past differently?

[Noronha]

Mephisto didnt just change the unmasking, he took away the marriage also. I guess pete being married to MJ directly effected the death of Harry

But if the only thing that didn´t happen was the marriage and JoeQ clearly states that everything else happened the exact same way except they were living together instead of being married,how can this affect and alter the events on Spectacular Spider-Man 200?

MJ still asked Harry to save Peter the difference is that she didn´t have a ring on her thinger.

This of course is the conclusion i reach by following Joe´s line of thought.

[Blader5489]

But how did he become Iron Spidey if Iron Man never knew his ID and for that matter why did he become Iron Spidey if the Other never happened... and uh...

(head explodes)

The Other still happened. Tony still built the Iron Spider suit for Pete. None of those events changed; what changed were Tony and Peter's memories of those events.

[Cody H]

The Other still happened. Tony still built the Iron Spider suit for Pete. None of those events changed; what changed were Tony and Peter's memories of those events.The question is, what specifically, do they remember then? If everything happened in exactly the same manner, with the exception that Tony now doesn't remember who Spidey was (and Pete wasn't married to MJ), that would be a pretty bizarre situation for Tony to be in. I know this seems like a pretty implausible scenario, but it's consistent with what the stance about the unmasking seems to be. That is, people remember him unmasking but don't remember his face.

[matthewaos]

The point is, will the people in the MU care about their memories or no? Because if they do care they can see clearly the problems. But I think JQ wants the people in the MU not to care about it (and us readers of course). Probably this is a solution like "make it now and in a few months everyone will forget that happened".

[superfriend]

The point is, will the people in the MU care about their memories or no? Because if they do care they can see clearly the problems. But I think JQ wants the people in the MU not to care about it (and us readers of course). Probably this is a solution like "make it now and in a few months everyone will forget that happened".

that's an interesting question...do people care.

i really believe Tony Stark will care. we've seen his attention to detail and his commitment to the SHRA. his futurist leanings affirm it. if he is going after rabble-rousers like the New Warriors then you know he's given some thought to Spider-Man. and if he's given some thought to Spider-Man then he's had to have felt some loss when he reminisces on working closely enough with Spider-Man that he entered into a very close friendship, designed and built a technological suit for him and got Spider-Man to pledge his fealty to Tony.

and all with Spider-Man revealing his secret ID...but Tony just can't quite seem to remember who he was? he got Spider-Man to go on TV and reveal his ID and he can't find any record of who Spider-Man actually is in his files or in any database or on any mainframe.

Given Tony's experience dealing with The Sentry (another victim of a mass mindwipe), Tony will not just care...he will figure it out.

Tony dismissing an unregistered Spider-Man and settling for obscured memories (especially given his enhanced mental capacities with Extremis), just doesn't seem like Tony.

[Noronha]

I like how the heroes are so dumb that they won´t even question why can´t they remember who Spidey is

[Blader5489]

The question is, what specifically, do they remember then?

I guess that would depend on the next time we see them run into each other.

I like how the heroes are so dumb that they won´t even question why can´t they remember who Spidey is

It's not like they would think to themselves, "Yesterday I knew who Spider-Man is, but today I don't." They would forget ever knowing Spider-Man's identity, which is (AGAIN) like what happened with the Sentry.

[superfriend]

It's not like they would think to themselves, "Yesterday I knew who Spider-Man is, but today I don't." They would forget ever knowing Spider-Man's identity, which is (AGAIN) like what happened with the Sentry.

I agree.

I think for the most part, people aren't going to wonder about it--it's just the people like Tony Stark who might wonder to themselves, why did I have a school teacher and his girlfriend living in my Avengers Tower for a time?

[Brand]

It's not like they would think to themselves, "Yesterday I knew who Spider-Man is, but today I don't." They would forget ever knowing Spider-Man's identity, which is (AGAIN) like what happened with the Sentry.

Is there any reason they shouldn't think to themselves, "I saw Spider-Man unmask. Heck, I saw him naked when we were captured in the Savage Land. Why can't I remember his face now? I should know who he is."

Tony, especially, should be freaked out by all this. It's already been stated that people remember Spider-Man unmasking, so there's no reason that Spidey's fellow heroes (such as his fellow Avengers) shouldn't remember their experiences with him.

[Brand]

I agree.

I think for the most part, people aren't going to wonder about it--it's just the people like Tony Stark who might wonder to themselves, why did I have a school teacher and his girlfriend living in my Avengers Tower for a time?

*sighs*

And if this is true, that in the new continuity Peter stayed in the Tower with May and his "girlfriend" MJ, then that causes another problem that needs explaining. May's house is in one piece. Why would they move in with the Avengers? Obviously the story didn't happen as we saw it unfold in the comics. If it did, then we encounter another problem. How did May's house get rebuilt? And besides that, what about the memories of Peter and May? Shouldn't they be a bit confused about why they left for Stark Tower when May's house wasn't destroyed? Their memories wouldn't match "reality."

[Noronha]

I guess that would depend on the next time we see them run into each other.



It's not like they would think to themselves, "Yesterday I knew who Spider-Man is, but today I don't." They would forget ever knowing Spider-Man's identity, which is (AGAIN) like what happened with the Sentry.

I can´t imagine why Luke Cage and the other avengers would stop to ask themselves"Who is this guy".
And with the skrulls running around they have a teammate they no one knows who he is,and when they try to remember all they have is a huge hole in their memories.
Clearly nothing that would freak out Dr Strange

[Blader5489]

I agree.

I think for the most part, people aren't going to wonder about it--it's just the people like Tony Stark who might wonder to themselves, why did I have a school teacher and his girlfriend living in my Avengers Tower for a time?

He probably wouldn't remember that either, as it would go in line with knowing who Spider-Man is. I hate to bring up the Sentry example again, but when everyone forgot about him they also forgot about his wife too.

I can´t imagine why Luke Cage and the other avengers would stop to ask themselves"Who is this guy".
And with the skrulls running around they have a teammate they no one knows who he is,and when they try to remember all they have is a huge hole in their memories.
Clearly nothing that would freak out Dr Strange

I'm sure it'll come up as we get closer to Secret Invasion, though personally I don't think Strange was mindwiped. He usually transcends stuff like that.

[superfriend]

He probably wouldn't remember that either, as it would go in line with knowing who Spider-Man is. I hate to bring up the Sentry example again, but when everyone forgot about him they also forgot about his wife too.

but the problem with this was that everyone he worked with knew he was Spider-Man too: Robbie, JJJ, Betty, etc.

but they didn't forget who Peter Parker was even though they got their mindwiped about knowing he was Spider-Man.

Why is Tony Stark different from other people?

[Blader5489]

but the problem with this was that everyone he worked with knew he was Spider-Man too: Robbie, JJJ, Betty, etc.

but they didn't forget who Peter Parker was even though they got their mindwiped about knowing he was Spider-Man.

Why is Tony Stark different from other people?

Tony Stark and the other Marvel heroes only know Peter Parker because they know Spider-Man. Whereas people like JJJ or Betty knew Peter before they ever knew he was Spider-Man.

Consequently, if someone like Stark forgets who Spider-Man is, then he completely forgets about Peter. Whereas JJJ, Robbie, and Betty would remember Peter (of course), they'd just forget he's Spidey.

Does that make sense? Kind of hard to put it in words.

[matthewaos]

that's an interesting question...do people care.

i really believe Tony Stark will care. we've seen his attention to detail and his commitment to the SHRA. his futurist leanings affirm it. if he is going after rabble-rousers like the New Warriors then you know he's given some thought to Spider-Man. and if he's given some thought to Spider-Man then he's had to have felt some loss when he reminisces on working closely enough with Spider-Man that he entered into a very close friendship, designed and built a technological suit for him and got Spider-Man to pledge his fealty to Tony.

and all with Spider-Man revealing his secret ID...but Tony just can't quite seem to remember who he was? he got Spider-Man to go on TV and reveal his ID and he can't find any record of who Spider-Man actually is in his files or in any database or on any mainframe.

Given Tony's experience dealing with The Sentry (another victim of a mass mindwipe), Tony will not just care...he will figure it out.

Tony dismissing an unregistered Spider-Man and settling for obscured memories (especially given his enhanced mental capacities with Extremis), just doesn't seem like Tony.

But you see, that's the problem! If they make Iron Man care for his memories, they will probably make him care to restore the world to what it was. So this is not an option, so no one cares in the MU.

[Kid Kyoto]

I like how the heroes are so dumb that they won´t even question why can´t they remember who Spidey is

This could honestly make for a good story.

So OK only memories (and Harry's death were altered).
Let's assume for the moment that people's perseptions were also clouded. So Peter looks at a wedding picture (still physically a wedding picture) and sees only a blank photo or an ordinary couple picture. Someone looks at a video of the unmasking and sees a face other than Peter's and hears him say "My name is (mumble mumble) and I've been Spiderman since I was 16".

So scenes of Iron Man or JJJ picking at this, watching the video over and over, doing hypnosis and whatever until finally the spell collapses, that's the built-in reset (re-reset) button.

[superfriend]

Tony Stark and the other Marvel heroes only know Peter Parker because they know Spider-Man. Whereas people like JJJ or Betty knew Peter before they ever knew he was Spider-Man.

Consequently, if someone like Stark forgets who Spider-Man is, then he completely forgets about Peter. Whereas JJJ, Robbie, and Betty would remember Peter (of course), they'd just forget he's Spidey.

Does that make sense? Kind of hard to put it in words.

so the senators that entertained Tony and Peter together where Peter spoke up in defence of the superheroes would remember Peter because they weren't introduced to Peter as Spider-Man but as Tony Stark's assistant, Peter Parker.

but Tony's not going to remember who was with him that day because he knew Peter because of Peter's secret ID, Spider-Man.

I got it...i think. thanks for your help.

[vitruvian]

It'll be really fun when we find out that *Mephisto* doesn't know Spider-Man is Peter Parker, or who exactly he made a deal with.

Hey, the two-page spread did say that *nobody* knows. Actually, taken literally, Peter himself shouldn't be able to remember....

[vitruvian]

It'll be really fun when we find out that *Mephisto* doesn't know Spider-Man is Peter Parker, or who exactly he made a deal with.

Hey, the two-page spread did say that *nobody* knows. Actually, taken literally, Peter himself shouldn't be able to remember....

[matthewaos]

It'll be really fun when we find out that *Mephisto* doesn't know Spider-Man is Peter Parker, or who exactly he made a deal with.

Hey, the two-page spread did say that *nobody* knows. Actually, taken literally, Peter himself shouldn't be able to remember....

I want to undo the deal!!!

What deal?

The deal we have that I don't remember!

Who are you?

Peter Parker, but I think I am missing something...

*JQ appears with his magic stick. Peter and Mephisto never had that conversation, they don't remember who they are, Hamilton is back from the dead, and Spider Hulk...*

[Choppa]

I guess my real question is did Mephisto change the past or alter the present and have people remember the past differently?

Anybody got an answer to this?

[rZi]

And more importantly, as I understood it, "The Other" retconned the origin so that Peter didn't get his powers from the spider, but from the Spider Gods or whatever. All Mephisto did was undo recent events, so doesn't that mean that the new origin still applies?

No this was commonly misunderstood, Ezekiel got his from a spider-totem. JMS always told this as a possibility for peter but was NEVER an absolute answer. He always kept peter very sceptical about it as it was more applicable to ezekiel than himself (his powers weren't identical to peters)

[Brand]

Anybody got an answer to this?

Yes, the past has been changed. It has already been stated that the marriage never took place and Baby May never existed now. Other likely candidates for the chopping block include The Other (after all, Spidey's new powers are gone now) and Harry's death (it hasn't been said Harry survived yet, but we're assuming he did).

[Blader5489]

Anybody got an answer to this?

I'm not sure I understand the question, so let me break it down as I understand it:

Past stories that were changed:
-Peter and MJ never married, but they have been dating seriously all this time (until recently)
-baby May was never conceived
-Harry didn't die at the end of Spectacular #200 and, instead, went into rehab (since he lost his memory of being the GG, I assume that the Goblin serum poisoning was interpreted as a drug overdose)

Those are the only things from the past that have been changed (to my knowledge). In addition, Mephisto erased all memory of Spider-Man's identity, so nobody remembers that Peter is Spider-Man and they don't remember ever knowing that Pete was Spidey.

[matthewaos]

No this was commonly misunderstood, Ezekiel got his from a spider-totem. JMS always told this as a possibility for peter but was NEVER an absolute answer. He always kept peter very sceptical about it as it was more applicable to ezekiel than himself (his powers weren't identical to peters)

So I guess you missed "the Other", right?

[DarKye]

Anybody got an answer to this?

Both.

There are two deals:

- No marriage: This is the base deal. Changing the past, with everything else supposedly falling into place regardless.

- No unmasking: This is MJ's side deal. Giving Peter a chance of being happy. "Putting his life just as it was" This includes the mindwipe, which starts in OMD and affects everyone after that day.


Now the question is how everything fits together. The lack of stingers may be an indication of Mephisto "putting his life just as it was", sparing him of the constant threat of mystical foes, as part of MJ's deal. This does not mean the Other didn't happen, only that after the day OMD takes place in, those upgrades have been removed or forgotten or whatever.

[rZi]

So I guess you missed "the Other", right?

The Other was peter accepting the powers he ORIGINALY given, you don't remember the scene where the spider explains that he never truly tried to learn them? was too scared? You see ezekiel with web-shooters and stingers?

No.

[matthewaos]

Yeah, but what I got from the other is that JMS killed Peter, brought a new one, actually (no past injuries etc) and he embraced the spider, and with the great weaver or what ever his name and all those things it gave the impression that his powers have this "new" origin.

[rZi]

It was the same peter after he had "shed" she skin, embracing more of his spider-side. I had to clarify this on wiki as the story was a little misleading in parts.

[Titanium]

Something occurs to me.

Harry's new girlfriend.

Blonde as opposed to dark hair.
Dark skin as opposed to light.
Female as opposed to male.

What Other character was once like that? Could Harry be bonking' Peter's Other?

[rZi]

Something occurs to me.

Harry's new girlfriend.

Blonde as opposed to dark hair.
Dark skin as opposed to light.
Female as opposed to male.

What Other character was once like that? Could Harry be bonking' Peter's Other?

Ms.Arrow died in FNSM #23 or #24 i believe + plus she has a father.....explain that!

[Titanium]

Ms.Arrow died in FNSM #23 or #24 i believe + plus she has a father.....explain that!

Oh, that's easy.

Magic.

[Noronha]

It happened exactly like it was written.
Except now he doesn´t have stingers,enhanced spider-sense,night vision,enhanced strength.

Well actually it happened but it didn´t happen.
What was the question again?

[togeteiku42]

What if Peter does still have his new powers and just doesn't know it. So one day he'll be shaking someone's hand as Peter, and this stinger will pop out of his wrist. Both Peter and the other person would freak out. Then Peter would think something was wrong with him, but in reality he just doesn't realize everything he can do because of OMD.

[Will.S]

They likely swept all the stuff they thought of as mistakes under the carpet which would include The Other and Sins Past.

I just don't see any other writer, even with a slightest hint, mentioning things like stingers and especially not organic webbing because apparently that's soooooo out there and difficult to do without using it as a plot device.

[CapnCaveman]

If retconning "The Other" will get you to buy more Spider-Man comics, then that's what Marvel did. I think they retconned in ordert to do away with the unpopular news powers.

[ZT4]

They did'nt sweep under Sins Past, all the stories still count. All of them.

[Noronha]

They did'nt sweep under Sins Past, all the stories still count. All of them.

Does that include DeMatteis masterpiece Spectacular Spider-Man 200?

[Will.S]

They did'nt sweep under Sins Past, all the stories still count. All of them.
Is this confirmed?

The only way I think we will know is if we don't see the twins at all.

[the mc gook]

Hello just discovered this web site and this is my first blog. Ive been reading comics for years and i feel that as a fan we are tollerating the same crap as before. Marvel tried this " new Spider man " before, any one remember the clone saga. Not only did we get Ben riley but at least countless different versions of clone villans from cain to the original Jackal, And then it went away. fast foward a few years and we get new powers new suit and new villians.. wait a minute dident we just get all this a few years ago pre Quesadas revoulotion. JMS run on the book at the beginning showed great promise but he went on to tinker and change to the point were i personally got fed up and then after his run wipes all the changes clear for someone else to start. The idea to reveal Spideys identity was something i was not in favour off but i think this latest twist is a real cop out. IF they want to mess around with continuity use the Ultimate books Keep Spider man the original character we all grew to enjoy.
Sorry Rant over great web site..

[bjtrdff]

By all rights, and according to every little bit of logic that has been presented to us, it should have.

Joe Q has SPECIFICALLY stated that the reason for using Mephisto to undo the marriage is to make sure that they didn't just wipe out 20 years of continuity. He also said that, with a couple of exceptions, every spidey-story happened, just with MJ and Peter together but not married.

However, no interview I've seen has addressed this, which is odd considering it was a 12 part 'epic'. And as they haven't maintained their logic or the previously mentioned line of thinking for most aspects of the new ASM story so far, Im not holding my breath. Particularly since the avengers and MJ no longer know Spidey's identity.


I feel an angry rant coming on, so Im going to end this here.

[ZT4]

And rushing out the Slott/Zakk/Gale storylines has not helped pave the way for that logic, they've gone right into the new status quoe without a maxi-series prepared to back up all the plot holes and timeslips, they just want us to "move forward", why should we when THEY have gone backwards?

[brundlefly]

Does that include DeMatteis masterpiece Spectacular Spider-Man 200?

This is my biggest problem, frankly, with the "magic reboot." Bringing Harry back was just a whim on Joe Q's part ('Hey, wouldn't it be fun to have Harry back? But the fun-loving, ladies man version from the 1960s & 70s, not that Goblin-y one who died in the early 90s. He was married with a kid, for Christ's sake, and you know how I feel about that.") and he admitted as much post-OMD. There was absolutely no reason to futz with DeMatteis' awesome final Harry/Goblin storyarc (technically encompassing SSM # 178-200, from "The Child Within" through to "Best of Enemies") if the supposed purpose of OMD was to just undo the Pete/MJ marriage. It's a pointless, messy retcon that he has yet to explain in any satisfactory manner ("It's magic! Hyuck!") and which blatantly contadicts a far superior storyarc by, quite frankly, a far superior Spidey writer. What's next, Kraven's Last Hunt is no longer in continuity because Joe Q thinks it would be "fun" to have Kraven back? Feel free to retcon crap like "Sins Past" and "The Other" (interestingly enough, stories that he hyped up and championed at the time that they came out) all you like, Joe, but keep your mitts off of stories from better writers that came before you, like DeMatteis, Lee, Stern, Conway, Michelinie, and the like. It was Harry's whimsical, nonsensical return at the end of OMD (and the implied decree of "SSM #200 has now been retconned on a whim by Joe Q in order to give single Pete a wingman when he's out at the clubs") that had me finally say "enough is enough" and just drop the Spidey books, as opposed to the deal with the devil/magic reboot of the marriage (which was equally dumb, but had been talked up and harped on for so long that at least one knew it was coming).

[Phil Hunn]

And rushing out the Slott/Zakk/Gale storylines has not helped pave the way for that logic, they've gone right into the new status quoe without a maxi-series prepared to back up all the plot holes and timeslips, they just want us to "move forward", why should we when THEY have gone backwards?

Indeed. Their reaction has been hilarious:

"Look, stop whining about the fact that this makes no sense. See, we're doing a story about a stupid mugger in a Spider-Man mask! And hey, look - here's Peter being young, cool and single! And that crazy druggie Harry Osborn's back! W00t! Isn't that so much better than making sense? Isn't it? Isn't it? Isn't it? Isn't - oh, never mind, we don't believe it either..."

[Leocomix]

Why bring Harry back indeed? carlie and Lily stand up for Gwen and MJ: one is the daughter of a dead policeman and the other one is the girlfriend of Harry. I guess they could have created a double for Harry as well.
(And Mr. Negative is a double for Octopus ca 1972: he is close to Aunt May and competes with the Maggia while Menace hangs on a Goblin Glider)

[becominAfanAgain]

Well, I see it as this, as crappy as it is and I'm still not buying it. All the major changes people are unclear about are someway and form connected to him being marry or his relationship with MJ. By taking that away some major changes had to happen in the timeline. All the stuff that is not connected to his relationship with MJ still happen just in a different manner. Same applies for the unmasking, hints the return of Aunt May's house.

Now I am not justifying anything because I hate the whole thing ( marriage gone and a hero making a deal with the Devil my a#@!) but This is how I kind of sum it up.

My Satanic Spidey sense is tingling.

[Leocomix]

The answer to the question is: No "The Other" happened in 2004 (or 2005 I forgot) and BND happens in 2008.