Should Barry Allen live again?

[Cayman]

Lying In The Gutters has published a rumor that Johns and Van Sciver are working on "Barry Allen - Rebirth". Although the clamor for Barry's return from the dead has never reached the fervor of the demands for Hal Jordan's redemption/resurrection, there is a definite contigent of fans who have been hoping for Barry's return.

Do you think Barry should return to the DCU?

I like Barry but I haven't really felt like his role wasn't ably filled by Wally in the years since Crisis. I'd be fine with Barry remaining dead in the current DCU but I probably wouldn't have any strong objections to his return assuming it was done well. I'd rather see Bart resurrected before Barry.

I think an All-Star Flash mini starring Barry might be a nice gesture for Barry fans. It would allow readers to enjoy continuing adventures of the hero and we wouldn't have to go through one of those torturous continuity-twisting storylines to explain his return in the DCU.

[Rattlehead]

Bring him back and watch sales on his title sink like a stone like they were pre-Crisis. They killed him because he was boring.

[Violently Apathetic]

Personally I read the Flash for the Rogues so I don't really care who is wearing the scarlet tights. However Wally, though occasionally unlikable, is generally a more dynamic character than Barry so at the end of the day I'd probably prefer to read about him. At this point I don't really care as they seem to be keeping Barry dead as a novelty more than anything else.

[Dr Ray Palmer]

Ehh, Jay Garrick has always been the only Flash I care about, anyway.

[adam_warlock_2099]

I liked Wally the best, but then that is when I first read Flash, so there is going to be a partial bias, as with Kyle Rayner. I enjoy the many Flashes for various reasons, but Wally was my favorite.

[KevinTBrown]

Technically he's not dead. He's alive in the future. So they can do stories of him there.....

[Red Jack]

no.

barry was cut from the same plywood plank as Hal. he died well. bringing him back invalidates the sacrifice just as resurrecting Jean Grey invalidated hers.

[PatrickG]

IMO, death in comics should never last beyond the point that the death makes an impact.

In the case of Barry, he really shouldn't be dead once we can be sure Wally is out of his shadow and/or once Barry's sainthood has been trampled on (see Identity Crisis).

Nobody should stay dead permanently in comics, though. Never.

The only exception being people who were dead in their first appearance, people who were created to be dead.

[TCJohnson]

Depends on how they bring him back and what they do with him (and Barry) once he is.

[MacQuarrie]

Are they going to bring back Barry Allen, or create some new guy with a vaguely similar appearance, call him "Barry Allen" and pretend he's back? 'Cause that's what they did with Hal.

[Lester C.]

Most comic book fans have never read an issue of Barry outside of trades, so see a lot of pissed off people in the future if they replace Wally for Barry.

[DaeJi]

I prefer Wally. Barry was just always so... meh to me. Granted I'm a touch bias, but I think Barry is probably more important dead now than alive. Still, an All-Star Flash would be a good thing I think.

[jerrymcl89]

I think once you've been replaced by your own grandson, it's time to stay dead.

[TomStillwell]

No, let Barry stay dead and a legend, a hero who sacrificed himself to save the universe.

The retcon stories "remembering" Barry have always been better to me than the original stories told about Barry.

[Hodge]

No, let Barry stay dead and a legend, a hero who sacrificed himself to save the universe.

The retcon stories "remembering" Barry have always been better to me than the original stories told about Barry.

This should pinned on DC Editorial's wall.

Plus people should read "The Return of Barry Allen" by Waid. Best Flash story ever.

[JKCarrier]

I grew up reading Barry, and I'm a huge fan... but I still think he should probably stay dead. As MacQ alluded to above, they'd have to warp his personality so much to make him palatable to the current audience, that they might as well not bother.

[PatrickG]

I grew up reading Barry, and I'm a huge fan... but I still think he should probably stay dead. As MacQ alluded to above, they'd have to warp his personality so much to make him palatable to the current audience, that they might as well not bother.

See though, I WANT his personality warped.

We never got to see him progress beyond what amounts to 1970s levels of characterization.

As long as he's dead, he can't be reimagined the way Hal has.

I don't want legacies or heroes who began as sidekicks.

Heck, if it were up to 100%, Alan and Jay would be the primary GL and Flash. But they lack the boomer marketing appeal of Barry and Hal.

Wally has too much history for me to be as interested in. Barry is more interesting to me because he had a life outside of being the Flash; he always COULD have been something else.

Plus, he's a police lab tech. Which is kinda cool right now. Attempts at shoehorning Bart or Wally into the role haven't worked for me.

Everything about Barry has been held in stasis so long that he's become retro, even on a sliding timeline. For example, his crewcut and his debut as the Flash now happened in the mid-90s. He was something of a hipster (the crewcut being retro instead of square) by those standards and likely big into the internet as a science geek in that time period.

When I watch CSI, I think of Grissom as being what Barry Allen would be today... and I don't think it's a bad fit for Barry. Certainly more interesting than a hot head like Wally or a legacy hero in general.

I'd rather see the same characters get reinvented than get replaced, in general.

Personality transfusions don't really impact continuity one way or the other, don't build up and create crisis-level events and, ultimately, rely less on illusion of progress and keeping old readers around.

IMHO, super-heroes and their secret identities should be a package deal. No legacy. No transference. The role dies when the hero dies. If people are bored, spice up the character a little but don't "move forward" so that you can trick readers into sticking with you. Don't sell the meta-story or the illusion of change. Sell the one shot or arc based story with the same status quo, in general, and do little shakeups.

IMHO, DC handled Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman best of its properties and started going a little crazy with the other stuff, particularly when they folded Earth-2 into Earth-1.

[Erik Burnham]

I'd rather see the same characters get reinvented than get replaced, in general.


...Which makes them different characters.

[Night Swordsman]

Hell No.
And as stated,bringing him back would yet again be giving Marv Wolfman and George Perez the finger for the GOOD work they did back on Crisis on Infinite Earths. They had a tough job,and did good. What OTHERS did after the series was finished was a mixmatch of good and bad crap. And some editors have gone on record saying they should of restarted ALL the books afterward.

NOW...how do i feel about Final Crisis? Awful. The series MAY be good,but with all the screwing around with CoIE and the PROVEN poor handling of One Year Latter,DC has established a track record of NOT being able to handle the AFTER EFFECTS of these series.
Bringing BACK Barry MAY,on paper,sound great,but in effect will just send Wally BACK into limbo OR kid flash mode,after ALL the great work done with him. And if you doubt this,take a look at the poor handling of Kyle since Hal has come back. Now he is just a supporting or co-starring character in Green Lantern Corp.

[jerrymcl89]

My actual main objection to the idea is that I don't think the DCU would be well served by having as many Flashes as there are Green Lanterns. I think it works for the GL's. I think putting Wally out to pasture to bring Barry back would be a bad idea, and I think not doing so, but bringing Barry back anyway would be redundant (not to mention redundant).

[Crowley]

If the full old school Multiverse returns... then logically Barry can return.

Bart too.

[KevinTBrown]

If the full old school Multiverse returns... then logically Barry can return.

Bart too.

I'm guessing in that "off month" between issues #4 & #5 of Final Crisis that's exactly what happens.... Back to Infinite Universes.

[Kevinroc]

I have yet to see anyone make a compelling argument about why the DCU needs Barry Allen. What role would he fill if he were brought back that was absolutely essential?

I could make a more compelling argument for why Bart needs to come back than Barry. Simply saying "it's his time" just isn't enough. Kara Zor-El and Jason Todd came back and those have been so badly handled that they can't be called anything less than a cluster****.

[PatrickG]

...Which makes them different characters.

No problem with that.

Just fewer names to keep track of that way. :evilsmile

[Crowley]

I have yet to see anyone make a compelling argument about why the DCU needs Barry Allen. What role would he fill if he were brought back that was absolutely essential?

I could make a more compelling argument for why Bart needs to come back than Barry. Simply saying "it's his time" just isn't enough. Kara Zor-El and Jason Todd came back and those have been so badly handled that they can't be called anything less than a cluster****.

Barry's return would be conditional on the old Multiverse returning because Barry was the sacrifice of the original CoIE because he was the first character to travel between earths.

[Charles RB]

He died 22 years ago in an act of heroism, Wally has been the Flash almost continuously for that time w/ many fans growing up with him around, and with him dead he has status as a shining example to live up to and a symbol of DC heroism. Bringing him back after all that would be quite daft.


I don't want legacies or heroes who began as sidekicks.

But a lot of other readers do, which is why Wally West is still around as the Flash and Nightwing is around and both titles have been selling for yonks (200+ and 100+ issues respectively).

[Paradox]

No.

Nor Hal Jordan, nor Jean Grey, nor Bucky, nor Jason Todd, etc. etc. ad nauseum.

[Joe Rice]

No.

As to what Dox said, the Bucky story's been a great one, but the others I agree on.

[Dreadstar]

Are they going to bring back Barry Allen, or create some new guy with a vaguely similar appearance, call him "Barry Allen" and pretend he's back? 'Cause that's what they did with Hal.

I thought I was the only one...


To answer the question: No.

But I am and *always have been* a HUGE proponent of "if you killed 'em, let them freaking ROT!" Barry? Dead. Ollie? Dead. Hal? Dead. CLARK? DEAD.

Hell, we can't even use that old saw about "the only two people who stay dead are Bucky and Jason Todd" anymore, can we?

And comics is a lot worse off because of it.

[Paradox]

Joe Rice advises:

As to what Dox said, the Bucky story's been a great one, but the others I agree on.

So I'm told. But I'm afraid I have no interest in even a well-written bad idea, unless they finally put him back in the box at the very end or some such.

'Course I ditched comics for financial reasons, so I'm not exactly a target audience any more. ;)

[Paradox]

Dreadstar should know I can't resist:

But I am and *always have been* a HUGE proponent of "if you killed 'em, let them freaking ROT!" Barry? Dead. Ollie? Dead. Hal? Dead. CLARK? DEAD.

Dread's right. Psychotic, but absolutely right. ;)

[Dreadstar]

I think that this situation absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody's part.

[Paradox]

We're just the guys to do it!

[Charles RB]

Nor Hal Jordan, nor Jean Grey, nor Bucky, nor Jason Todd, etc. etc. ad nauseum.

Y'know, Jean's still dead at the moment. Second time lucky...?

[Dreadstar]

Y'know, Jean's still dead at the moment. Second time lucky...?

If I gave you 100 to 1 odds with the caveat that you must make a minimum $1,000 wager, would you be willing to bet that she stayed dead?

[Paradox]

She, herself, in those '90s restructuring days, mentioned she was becoming a cliche. How long do you think this particular "death" will last (and trust me, this one...which I know nothing about...is FAR from #2).

[Red Jack]

Y'know, Jean's still dead at the moment. Second time lucky...?

I'm guessing the new baby is Jean, back again.

[Charles RB]

If I gave you 100 to 1 odds with the caveat that you must make a minimum $1,000 wager, would you be willing to bet that she stayed dead?

Hell no, I'm not that hopeful.

What we need is to ensure the next ten years of X-Men are written by people who hate Jean. With luck, by the end of it nobody will still be caring about her death...

[MacQuarrie]

Hell No.
And as stated,bringing him back would yet again be giving Marv Wolfman and George Perez the finger for the GOOD work they did back on Crisis on Infinite Earths. They had a tough job,and did good. What OTHERS did after the series was finished was a mixmatch of good and bad crap. And some editors have gone on record saying they should of restarted ALL the books afterward.
Marv told me personally that the entire reason he did COIE was to "kill continuity." He said it was this cumbersome, complicated mess that interfered with writers telling good stories, and he wanted to flush it all away and start fresh. Unfortunately, too many other editors and writers at DC were continuity wonks and didn't get what he was doing, and they insisted on reverting right back to basically what had gone before, only with lots of even more complicated continuity tangles to explain all the stuff they couldn't leave alone.

Killing Barry was an editorial mandate brought about by precipitously-falling sales of his book. Falling sales brought about by the increasing darkness of the series in the wake of Iris' murder.

Funny, that.

[MacQuarrie]

Hell no, I'm not that hopeful.

What we need is to ensure the next ten years of X-Men are written by people who hate Jean. With luck, by the end of it nobody will still be caring about her death...

Jean is the scab that Claremont couldn't stop picking at, and his obsession was passed on to everyone who followed him.

[Dreadstar]

Marv told me personally that the entire reason he did COIE was to "kill continuity." He said it was this cumbersome, complicated mess that interfered with writers telling good stories, and he wanted to flush it all away and start fresh. Unfortunately, too many other editors and writers at DC were continuity wonks and didn't get what he was doing, and they insisted on reverting right back to basically what had gone before, only with lots of even more complicated continuity tangles to explain all the stuff they couldn't leave alone.

Bless Marv. This is EXACTLY the direction that SHOULD have been for CoiE. They had the opportunity to re-do the fifties leap from Golden to Silver Age with a clean slate. Not only that, they could have, with only some minor tweaking in CoiE, *kept* both the Golden and the Silver universes, and used them sparingly like the Silver used the Gold. (or MORE sparingly, depending on your point of view) what actually happened was a clumsy melange of both "let's start from scratch" and "let's keep *my*(whomever "my" referred to) favorite bits of continuity".

[Charles RB]

How easy would it be to genuinely start from scratch when dozens of comics are being published at the same time, if you want to keep a combined universe?

You could throw out the combined universe, of course, but that cocks up the JLA. Unless you have the JLA in its own little continuity where the characters all do co-exist and as a result they get to develop differently (Gotham is now a No Mans Land? Not in the JLAverse!).

[Dreadstar]

How easy would it be to genuinely start from scratch when dozens of comics are being published at the same time, if you want to keep a combined universe?

At his particular point in time, I have no idea. I don't care enough about the DC universe right now to be conversant enough to answer that.

In 1984, however, it would have been much less painful. Hell, with 4 bat-titles and 4-Supes titles, you could have kept telling Silver-Age stories in one. Not that you'd necessarily want to. But you could have. Yes, there would have been some growing (or evolving) pains. Teen Titans, JLA (A/E/I?), things like that. But you could have also had a nice little side sandbox where Bruce's back remained broken and Dick took over, where Clark actually did meet his fate to Doomsday.

Admittedly, THOSE are just my OWN bits of wishful thinking, and MOST LIKELY would not fit in with whatever Marv's idea was at the time. C'est la vie.

[Charles RB]

But you could have also had a nice little side sandbox where Bruce's back remained broken and Dick took over, where Clark actually did meet his fate to Doomsday.

That would've been useful. Pity they couldn't have done something like that after Infinite Crisis (though doing a continuity reset then would've made it REALLY pointless to have started up new comics and characters in the preceeding two years i.e. Manhunter).

[sabongero]

Barry should remain dead, for the simple fact that a Barry Allen - Rebirth if not written well like Geoff John's Green Lantern: Rebirth will be a dismal failure and can eventually see the sales plummet.

You need a writer who genuinely cares for the character and the character's legacy. Right now, there is no writer working for DC that cares enough about the Barry Allen character.

Don't say Geoff Johns either, because he is more familiar and cares more for the Wally West character.

Personally, I'd rather have Bart Allen resurrected and be The Flash The Fastest Man Alive and written by Marc Guggenheim.

[MacQuarrie]

Barry should remain dead, for the simple fact that a Barry Allen - Rebirth if not written well like Geoff John's Green Lantern: Rebirth will be a dismal failure and can eventually see the sales plummet.
I'm not entirely sure that "well written" and "Geoff Johns' Green Lantern: Rebirth" should appear in the same sentence. But that might just be me.

I thought it was the Everest of contrived fanboy continuity-wanking.

[sabongero]

I'm not entirely sure that "well written" and "Geoff Johns' Green Lantern: Rebirth" should appear in the same sentence. But that might just be me.

I thought it was the Everest of contrived fanboy continuity-wanking.

Okay sorry if you didn't like that. But I really liked that limited series because it was very entertaining.

If I may ask, which writer would you recommend to be in the same sentence as "well written" that can do a really good job on a Barry Allen/Flash comic book series. And Why would that writer be good for that particular series ... basically back it up. And you might be on to something then right ?

[Crowley]

I'm not entirely sure that "well written" and "Geoff Johns' Green Lantern: Rebirth" should appear in the same sentence. But that might just be me.

I thought it was the Everest of contrived fanboy continuity-wanking.

I dug rebirth... what don't you like about the new Hal?

(I never knew the old one)

[MacQuarrie]

I dug rebirth... what don't you like about the new Hal?

(I never knew the old one)

I can't tell you exactly, he's just "off" somehow.

I didn't like Rebirth because it wasn't a story, it was an elaborate clockwork device created to produce a "plausible" explanation for Hal's return from the dead. Spencer Tracy once gave some acting advice that went "never let anybody catch you at it." The problem with Rebirth (and every other "event" in comics), is that you catch them at it all the time. Plot-points aren't plot-points, they're cogs put in place to facilitate the predetermined outcome, and it shows. While reading Rebirth, I never once thought "what's going to happen next?" It was always "oh, I see where this is setting stuff up to bring Hal back." IT couldn't have been more blatant if Johns were shouting "pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!"

Try the mom test on it. Can you explain the plot to your mom without her eyes glazing over or her getting that "oh brother" look on her face?

[jerrymcl89]

At the time, I thought of Rebirth as a "rip off the band aid" type of story, like One More Day - that is, it arguably brought about a status quo that was better, but it really wasn't in any serious way a good story. But in the wake of the Sinestro Corps arc, and Geoff's plans for the emotional spectrum, it doesn't feel as contrived to me as it did in the past. I still wouldn't really cite it as one of the better comic storyarcs I've read, but I no longer see it entirely in ends-justify-the-means terms.

[Night Swordsman]

My problem with Green Lantern is simple.
Where is HAL JORDAN?

He feels more like a guest star in his own book. Sure,he has the spotlight,but i wished we had some more CHARACTER moments (such as his flight with Cowgirl) than some super badguy that needs beating up.

Give us more HAL,and less Green Lantern for a small bit. Please!

[Michael P]

what actually happened was a clumsy melange of both "let's start from scratch" and "let's keep *my*(whomever "my" referred to) favorite bits of continuity".

Gee, why does that sound familiar?