Sins not past

[matthewaos]

For some reason I cannot understand I reread "Sins Past". Well, I'll start with the good things. This story is an emotional torment, so if you just see it as a story, it a great one.
Now the bad. First of all, I cannot understand how Gwen had two children and did not say a word to Peter. And I don't think that she went to France for seven months, I think it was something for a short time, like a week or something, I'm not 100% sure though. And I can't see how MJ could not tell Peter about Gwen. Gwen as a subject was brought a million times, she could never tell him?

[ZT4]

Sins Past is the "Trapped in the Closet" of Spider-Man stories. All it needs is a midget.

[metalhead_dave743]

Maybe Osborn had the kids with the Gwen Stacy clone and somehow implanted false memories in MJ's mind.

Hey, if he can be brought back and given an explination that he'd been in Europe, he can be capable of anything. At least if I were EIC, I would have retconned it to that. Sure it's mentioning a CLONE, but it's better than defiling Gwen's memory.

[CMBMOOL]

Sins Past is the "Trapped in the Closet" of Spider-Man stories. All it needs is a midget.

Would a Wolverine apperance be good enough for a midget. :D

[ZT4]

That makes perfect sense. Norman was always connected with Warren, and going after Gwen fit in with his goblin persona surfacing in a subtle, seductive manner.

Sooner or later, they'll be an EIC determined to "fix" everything in that regard than allow it to sit, I hope that's the first priority.

[matthewaos]

Either way, why Norman would hook up with Gwen, and more important, clone Gwen? And I don't think Warren would allow it, he had some special attachment with her. If she was raped it could make more sense I think, and I think that she would be ashamed enough to tell Peter. Can anyone clarify if there is any statement about how long did Gwen stay France?

You would imagine that Norman wants to be a father figure very much. He had Harry, he had the twins, he returned from Europe just to see if little Normie when he was born (as stated in PPSM vo.2 #25), and he also wanted Peter.

[metalhead_dave743]

Either way, why Norman would hook up with Gwen, and more important, clone Gwen?

To screw with Peter. This is a guy who's OBSESSED with screwing with Peter, going to extremes to do it. Let's go over all the things he's done in the name of screwing Peter, tell me if I missed any...

-Kidnapped and killed Gwen Stacy
-Orchestrated the clone saga which is a list in of itself of how it screwed with Peter
-"Killed" Peter's kid
-Framed Spider-Man for murder, resulting in the Identity Crisis
-Kidnapped Aunt May and replaced her with an actress to make Peter think she died. Then Osborn put a bomb in her head when Peter found out she was alive.
-Secretly brainwashed Peter, trying to turn him into the next Goblin before kidnapping him and trying to make Peter his "son."
-Made Flash Thompson OD on beer, and then crashed a truck with Flash behind the wheel into Peter's high school
-Convinced Gabe and Sarah to go after Peter, which this thread is about
-Kidnapped Aunt May(again), and stuck her in Ben's grave... while creating the "Sinister Twelve"

Is there ANYTHING I had missed or hadn't gone into detail about. Norman Osborn has nothing BETTER to do than screw with Peter Parker. I bet he has WAREHOUSES full of plans to screw with Peter. Having kids with the Gwen clone would have been a Tuesday for him.

And I don't think Warren would allow it, he had some special attachment with her.

Miles Warren is nothing more than a lackey to the Green Goblin, a puppet in Norman's plan. If Norman says jump, Warren asks how high. If Norman says he's going to boink Gwen's clone, Warren asks what condom would he prefer.

[Sonicjuce]

I can't believe in all this mess a Sins Past thread popped up. This topic is so beaten to death it is not even funny.

[Alan2099]

So, you want a storyline that combines the clone saga AND Sins past? Can we please work the Spider-totem and a homeless Peter Parker sleeping on the streets into this? Maybe toss in a few of the less known symbites and the cyborg version of Hobgoblin?

[metalhead_dave743]

So, you want a storyline that combines the clone saga AND Sins past?

No, but I'd like to use the clone saga to explain Sins Past. Yeah sure, they were both unpopular stories, but at least it would fix the damage that Sins Past did to Gwen Stacy. That's what pissed people off the most about Sins Past right? And as far as the clone saga aspect is concerned, that sucked because it went entirely too long, so we can use it as an explantion to why and how Gwen got knocked up and had kids, and not drag it through the mud for three years.

Bingo bango, turn a negative into a positive.

[matthewaos]

So, you want a storyline that combines the clone saga AND Sins past? Can we please work the Spider-totem and a homeless Peter Parker sleeping on the streets into this? Maybe toss in a few of the less known symbites and the cyborg version of Hobgoblin?

Hey, I liked cyborg Hobgoblin!!!:mad:

Either way, I can see why Norman would hook up with Gwen, but I don't think that clone Gwen would be of use for him. Warren sure was just a pawn, but I still believe that he wouldn't let Osborn with Gwen, considering that he had his own clone living with her (ouch, that was sick!).

BTW, why Spider-Man had to go to Lamond when he could go to DD to see what the letter is writing? And threaten him? that was stupid. And oh, he said his web will last for 24 hours...:rolleyes:

One other good about Sins Past is the art, and the fact that we can see the classic Goblin cosume which is better than the upgraded I think) drawn by Deodato!

[genesis]

Sins Past is the "Trapped in the Closet" of Spider-Man stories. All it needs is a midget.

Funniest thing I have heard in a really long time. Thank you so much for that it was much needed.

[vitruvian]

Either way, why Norman would hook up with Gwen, and more important, clone Gwen?

He doesn't need to have cloned Gwen *for that purpose* to later have slept with her and fathered rapidly aging twins; Warren already cloned at least one of her that had her memories and has shown up from time to time in the years since. They never killed her off like Ben Reilly, either.

Come to think of it, having a clone as a mother could actually be a better explanation for the twins' rapid maturation and aging than the Goblin formula...

[metalhead_dave743]

Hey, I liked cyborg Hobgoblin!!!:mad:
Either way, I can see why Norman would hook up with Gwen, but I don't think that clone Gwen would be of use for him.

Warren sure was just a pawn, but I still believe that he wouldn't let Osborn with Gwen, considering that he had his own clone living with her (ouch, that was sick!).



You missed my point though, Osborn will do ANYTHING to screw with Peter, the events I listed shows he would. Of COURSE the clone of Gwen could be of use for him, if it's to screw with Peter. That's why the Gwen clone was created in the first place, (and Miles Warren had a thing for her I guess). If you think of any way that Osborn could screw with Peter, I'll put money down that Norman's already thought of it.

And if Warren tries anything, Norman will pumpkin bomb him, sick the scriers on him, or find some other way to dispose of him. Norman gets what he wants, unless he's dealing with Spider-Man because all he'll get then is an asskicking.

[matthewaos]

Well, this is my favorite topic: Norman Osborn!!!!

In the past Norman has been shown that he would screw with Peter just for screwing with him, and no deep reason. I mean, there was a deep explanation about the clone saga (it should be), but there was not much of explanation in Death in the family. Maybe you are right, Norman would probably do it with no hesitation. I usually think Norman as more of a mastermind, than "I just screw with you because I can" guy.

Was Osborn behind the first clone saga? I think yes but I'm not 100% sure, I don't have the Osborn journal or something that says yes.

As I think about it it would be a better explanation. I think that Gwen clone and Peter is a nice relation that should be in the surface from time to time. He should have seen her after the HoM for example, it would be a nice issue. I still can't understand how MJ knew and never told. And now that I remember it, it is supposed that MJ saw Sarah in the street, asking directions. If she is like Gwen, wouldn't MJ notice?

[Joe Acro]

Norman hired the Jackal to splice Gwen's and Peter's DNA to make the children and then orchestrated other events to eventually convince Peter of the things within the story itself. But really, to explain that in-comic would be too complicated and likely out of place (unless you write a story just to fix another one, but then people just become disgusted or laugh).

[Winter Bolt]

The way it all worked in my mind was that the twins were Gwen and Peters. Some off screen "magic" with Gwen finding out he was Spider-Man and he had taken one too many pumpkin bombs or was in really really bad shape or you could use any of a dozen reasons that I've seen on TV, so Gwen snuck him home and she took advantage of Pete. She then was ashamed of what she did after finding out she was pregnant, went to "Europe" where Norman found out she was there, befriended her, and learned in confidence she was pregnant. He may have even set her up to go there so he could get the scheme rolling. Norman then brainwashed her, she had the children, and Norman overspliced his genetic code over the twins so they would be his, erasing Petes. So they are essentially, Norman and Petes at this point. The kids are crazy as per diem, and Mary jane knowing what she knew I can totally understand her not saying a thing whether because she feels its right or by editorial mandate.

I can't see Gwen falling in love/lust with Norman, or the guy going to great lengths to rape someone for some huge evil plan. Gwen loved Pete and that love makes you do stupid things. Just look at Pete... Love makes him do "really really" stupid things.

The clones from samples is also a good punch up retcon by the way, but it doesn't hold as much feeling to me, because I'd of liked grown up spidey with out of wedlock kids, kidnapped kids, dead kids, seperated Spidey, and I would have gone for divorced Spidey if Editorial felt they really needed a playa spidey.

[rZi]

All the flaws you pointed out are due to marvel pulling the rug out from under JMS whilst he was mid-writting the arc. Hence why Gabriel looks like peter and not norman...he had to do the best he could with what he had.

[metalhead_dave743]

Why Not?

http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/7431/20041025lr6.jpg

[Will.S]

All the flaws you pointed out are due to marvel pulling the rug out from under JMS whilst he was mid-writting the arc. Hence why Gabriel looks like peter and not norman...he had to do the best he could with what he had.
It's kind of a lose/lose situation by putting Sins Past out in either version. If it's Peter's kids, he has advanced aged kids and creates a really weird situation.

When it's Norman's kids....well....we get the disturbing picture metalhead_dave743 posted.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

I read either here on CBR or Newsarama that OMD doesn't retcon Sins Past . I mean is this an inability on Marvel's part to even accept that this thing blew monkey balls or what ?

Ya bring back freakin Harry Osborn ...why not do us a favor and do what JMS wanted and 86 this damn thing.

[metalhead_dave743]

When it's Norman's kids....well....we get the disturbing picture metalhead_dave743 posted.

Oh you like that one huh?

Try this one.

http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/6572/20041122bf1.jpg

[Will.S]

Oh you like that one huh?

Try this one.

http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/6572/20041122bf1.jpg
Haha, that's another good one.

[matthewaos]

Hehe, I prefer this, and it's also about the story.

http://aycu37.webshots.com/image/39076/2001689806405308607_rs.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2001689806405308607)

[sabongero]

Hey since Sarah is around and Pete is not married...I say have Joe Q.'s approval and hook them up. :)

[matthewaos]

This would be so confusing my head hurts, and I am already sick...

[rZi]

Hehe, I prefer this, and it's also about the story.

http://aycu37.webshots.com/image/39076/2001689806405308607_rs.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2001689806405308607)

In all fairness these scene was drawn AMAZINGLY (yes, pun) by deodato. Truly beautifal work

[darkness85]

Hehe, I prefer this, and it's also about the story.

http://aycu37.webshots.com/image/39076/2001689806405308607_rs.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2001689806405308607)

That's funny. :D

[matthewaos]

In all fairness these scene was drawn AMAZINGLY (yes, pun) by deodato. Truly beautifal work

Yeah, that was a great scene. If you ignore for a while the story, it is amazing indeed!