Should Joe Quesada stay or go?

[Sean Whitmore]

Because the idea actually does have some merit as a conversation piece.


SEAN

[rick]

Like I've said before, Joe has managed to sell a hell of a lot of comics and get Marvel a hell of a lot of press.

Why in the world should they even possibly consider firing him?

[Will.S]

Just keep him the hell away from the Spider-Man books, he's done enough damage so that's all I ask.

[DeadXMan]

like or hate him you got to admit he has some of biggest kahunas in the business.

this shark says, "keep him on"

[AC-WEB]

Because the idea actually does have some merit as a conversation piece.


SEAN

I'm big into sports, so I'll use a sports analogy. I think he should go, but wish no ill will towards him. When a GM or coach takes a team in the wrong direction, like wins go down, tickets sales/concession sales go down, tv viewership goes down, and fans are unhappy, then it's time for the owner to make a change. Now Spider-Man sales are at a good place right now, and sales may go up because of the publicity of OMD/BND and advanced purchases, BUT if in 6 months to a years, what I mentioned above happens with Spider-Man, then yeah, Buckly should fire him and get somebody new to give the majority of the fans what they want and gets sales back up. That is why I am making a concerted effort not to buy Spider-Man even though he is my favorite character. Heck, I'm dropping Ultimate Spider-Man as well, and will Byrne-steal it instead. My comic book vendor is cool with me to read the Spider-Man book in the store. Hopefully I'll do my part to keep Marvel honest from pulling crap like this again. I like the marriage, but could deal with a separation or death if it is well written. I can't stand the "It's Magic" erase and plug in what I feel for no good reason attitude Quesada and most of Marvel has now.

[rick]

I'm big into sports, so I'll use a sports analogy. I think he should go, but wish no ill will towards him. When a GM or coach takes a team in the wrong direction, like wins go down, tickets sales/concession sales go down, tv viewership goes down, and fans are unhappy, then it's time for the owner to make a change. Now Spider-Man sales are at a good place right now, and sales may go up because of the publicity of OMD/BND and advanced purchases, BUT if in 6 months to a years, what I mentioned above happens with Spider-Man, then yeah, Buckly should fire him and get somebody new to give the majority of the fans what they want and gets sales back up. That is why I am making a concerted effort not to buy Spider-Man even though he is my favorite character. Heck, I'm dropping Ultimate Spider-Man as well, and will Byrne-steal it instead. My comic book vendor is cool with me to read the Spider-Man book in the store. Hopefully I'll do my part to keep Marvel honest from pulling crap like this again. I like the marriage, but could deal with a separation or death if it is well written. I can't stand the "It's Magic" erase and plug in what I feel for no good reason attitude Quesada and most of Marvel has now.


Let me get this straight.

You still enjoy the Spidy books enough to read all the new issues, but still want the man responsible those books to be fired?

If you hate the current writing that badly, why still read the book?

[DarKye]

As long as he lets the writers do the writing, I don't mind him.

[Mister Mets]

He's done an excellent job so far. There were some mistakes, but they're minor compared to his successes. And I can't think of anyone suitable to replace him.

[mikekerr3]

He sells comics and thats what he's paid for. If he would just stop damaging characters solely for the hype factor i would not have any real objection to him.

I think the moral ambiguity in the comics is bad but that is a matter of taste. I'll just stop buying until that pendulum swings back. Spider-man dealing with the Devil, hero's committing murder, and still being called Hero, and Marines as Suicide bombers are just too damned dark for me.

If he would stop lying that would be nice also. Hype, I don't mind but the lies get to me.:(

[Sam T.]

I say keep him on. He has brought much energy to Marvel!

[DeadXMan]

where has Joe lied?
he said he was ending the marriage and not by divorce or killing MJ.

[carabas]

where has Joe lied?When he promised that the unmasking during Civil War opened up tons of new story opportunities, and that it wouldn't be magicked away, while in reality the unmasking was just the macguffin he needed to justify magicking the marriage away.

[Jake V]

When he promised that the unmasking during Civil War opened up tons of new story opportunities, and that it wouldn't be magicked away, while in reality the unmasking was just the macguffin he needed to justify magicking the marriage away.

Why would he say in an interview that was what he was planning on doing?

[StoneGold]

Here's the real question - should anything done on one book affect that decision?

[Nick MB]

He certainly shouldn't be fired. I do think he might consider stepping aside in the next year or two to get some new energy into the line, but his hit rate is still higher than his misses. No-one's going to fire him until he actually makes a few proven major errors. (i.e. an error with numbers to back it up, not just a decision some people don't like.)

[mikekerr3]

Why would he say in an interview that was what he was planning on doing?


There are other ways to avoid an answerer than an outright lie. The " wait and see" answer they are giving now is one of them. Hiding stuff from the readers is fine but lying in interviews just means you are a liar

The "only the memories bit" is a transparent lie also. Forgetting stuff brings back people from the dead? Removes web-shooters from arms?

[DeadXMan]

let's see here

CW leads to stories of people coming to terms with Pete being spider-man(like Liz Betty and flash) to May getting shot which leads to bib which leads to omd that leads bnd.

why protest bnd
it removed the organic web shooters, the stingers, the other and the crappy going to mj issue when in self doubt

[mikekerr3]

let's see here

CW leads to stories of people coming to terms with Pete being spider-man(like Liz Betty and flash) to May getting shot which leads to bib which leads to omd that leads bnd.

why protest bnd
it removed the organic web shooters, the stingers, the other and the crappy going to mj issue when in self doubt

The choice made by Peter and MJ in OMD ruined the character for me as I believe he made a choice that was immoral for him. He has been portrayed as a person who prays and this is inconsistent with his decision. OMD's solution to the problem was not an necessary step in the characters path. It was completely out of character.

The reason to protest BND is that they have made an heroic Icon into a Putz. I want a heroic and moral, if often a loser, character back again. If I buy BND I am endorsing what I believe to be a stupid change in who Spider-man is.

And I liked the marriage.

[carabas]

Why would he say in an interview that was what he was planning on doing?What's the point of doing an interview when you know you can't really believe a word your interviewee says?

[matthewaos]

Just keep him the hell away from the Spider-Man books, he's done enough damage so that's all I ask.

Exactly what I was gonna say.

[Alan2099]

The choice made by Peter and MJ in OMD ruined the character for me as I believe he made a choice that was immoral for him. He has been portrayed as a person who prays and this is inconsistent with his decision. OMD's solution to the problem was not an necessary step in the characters path. It was completely out of character.
His other option was, "let Autn May die as long as I get to keep the life I want, even if it was my fault she got killed," not exactly a moral option either. And yes, he has been inconsistent in his decissions in the past. Haven't you ever seen a comic where he's fighting some villian and then finds out that they were only doing it for their familiy or something, and decides to turn his back and let them go? How about any of the times he yells at rookie heroes for acting impulsive and not thinking things though? Spider-man has made a lot of mistakes in the past and will continue to make them. He's also let people go for things he should have brought them in for, or yelled at people for things he does himself. You can't honestly expect him to walk out of a no-win situation with a strong moral victory can you? Sometimes you're stuck with a choice between two evils. Spider-man choose the evil that would most likely help somebody else even if it meant that he'd end up on the losing side of things. That sounds perfectly in character for him.

I don't think we'd have half these conversations if the story came out exactly the same way, except instead of mephisto, they used Loki, or the Beyonder, or even Judas Traveler or something.

[Robo Ape]

Time to go I think, of late his attitude to his titles has been something akin to a bull in a china shop, rushing all over the place & knocking over & breaking all the good stuff.

[DeadXMan]

you can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs

[Harlock]

His other option was, "let Autn May die as long as I get to keep the life I want, even if it was my fault she got killed," not exactly a moral option either. And yes, he has been inconsistent in his decissions in the past. Haven't you ever seen a comic where he's fighting some villian and then finds out that they were only doing it for their familiy or something, and decides to turn his back and let them go? How about any of the times he yells at rookie heroes for acting impulsive and not thinking things though? Spider-man has made a lot of mistakes in the past and will continue to make them. He's also let people go for things he should have brought them in for, or yelled at people for things he does himself. You can't honestly expect him to walk out of a no-win situation with a strong moral victory can you? Sometimes you're stuck with a choice between two evils. Spider-man choose the evil that would most likely help somebody else even if it meant that he'd end up on the losing side of things. That sounds perfectly in character for him.

I don't think we'd have half these conversations if the story came out exactly the same way, except instead of mephisto, they used Loki, or the Beyonder, or even Judas Traveler or something.

Very well said. As for me; I voted keep him, but make a few changes. Don't ask me what those changes should be, however. I simply feel nothing and no one is perfect and that there is always room for improvement somewhere. ;)

[Dr. K]

He should go. Not just because of OMD, though that's certainly his most egregious error. But because he's been a poor leader.

His strong points were always in generating publicity and cultivating fan excitement, but, despite the few of you who like the new direction, he's really lost the support of fans. He once had it. Now he's booed at conventions and can't appear in public without being challenged about his decisions. Even Dan Didio is doing better in that regard, and that's saying something.

He's been publicly arrogant, both towards the fans and towards other creators. You can get away with that for a little while when you have all the momentum on your side. It doesn't serve you when you're always stepping on your consumers' toes though. And while he has brought in some good talent which in turn led to some good stories, he's alienated more people than he's attracted.

Nevermind that he never had the skills needed to be an editor in the first place, much less editor-in-chief. He was an artist with a smidgen of business sensibilities who got lucky and happened to be in the right positions at the right times. But he has ALWAYS failed at the things an editor should do. Too many late books. Too little responsibility for consistency, fact-checking, etc..

In this regard, he's done a great disservice to the legacy of Marvel. He has not taken what he was given, added to it, and left it in better shape for the future. He's squandered franchises to try out some neat short-term ideas that he and his pals liked. He's interfered in stories to carry out personal vendettas (a la Morrison's New X-Men). And he's pushed through inane ideas despite heavy fan and creator objections for reasons that are spurious, at best.

Despite all this, I've nothing personal against the man, and if he started doing the job he was given with a modicum of talent, I'd be happy. But I doubt that's going to happen.

[Harlock]

He should go. Not just because of OMD, though that's certainly his most egregious error. But because he's been a poor leader.

His strong points were always in generating publicity and cultivating fan excitement, but, despite the few of you who like the new direction, he's really lost the support of fans. He once had it. Now he's booed at conventions and can't appear in public without being challenged about his decisions. Even Dan Didio is doing better in that regard, and that's saying something.

He's been publicly arrogant, both towards the fans and towards other creators. You can get away with that for a little while when you have all the momentum on your side. It doesn't serve you when you're always stepping on your consumers' toes though. And while he has brought in some good talent which in turn led to some good stories, he's alienated more people than he's attracted.

Nevermind that he never had the skills needed to be an editor in the first place, much less editor-in-chief. He was an artist with a smidgen of business sensibilities who got lucky and happened to be in the right positions at the right times. But he has ALWAYS failed at the things an editor should do. Too many late books. Too little responsibility for consistency, fact-checking, etc..

In this regard, he's done a great disservice to the legacy of Marvel. He has not taken what he was given, added to it, and left it in better shape for the future. He's squandered franchises to try out some neat short-term ideas that he and his pals liked. He's interfered in stories to carry out personal vendettas (a la Morrison's New X-Men). And he's pushed through inane ideas despite heavy fan and creator objections for reasons that are spurious, at best.

Despite all this, I've nothing personal against the man, and if he started doing the job he was given with a modicum of talent, I'd be happy. But I doubt that's going to happen.

He's booed at cons? So is the the comissioner of any major sport booed at any appearance in a stadium. It's sort of the thing to do. How has he not left Marvel in better shape for the future? They are outselling not only their closest competition, they are actually seeing an increase in sales and bringing in new fans. Especially noteworthy is that they are bringing in readers of a different demographic than the norm.

None of this sounds like stepping on consumers toes in my mind. In fact, it shows just the opposite. As for pushing through ideas for reasons you deem spurious, if you read the interviews, if you believe JMS, Joe is doing what he thinks is best for the long term on at least Spider-Man.

Here's the facts, not anecdotal opinion: Marvel Comics Group is stronger as a line now than when Quesada took over. Sales are up. Under Quesada, Marvel has turned a Non X or Spider book into a top selling monster, enough so to have several spin-offs. The X-books and Spider-Man books are still strong. He has brought in fantastic new talent. He has brought in new readers. Marvel stock is up (due in part to several successful movies).

For these real reasons you think he should go? You say it isn't personal, but when stepping back and objectively looking at facts and not anecdotes, it's hard to believe.

[Liberty Belle Fan]

Keep him on, he's doing an excellent job!

Always remember, when you replace someone there's always the chance of getting someone exponentially worse.

[Brian M.]

No.

It is not his job to make you happy. Not all of you.

[Dr. K]

Here's the facts, not anecdotal garbage: Marvel Comics Group is stronger as a line now than when Quesada took over. Sales are up. Under Quesada, Marvel has turned a Non X or Spider book into a top selling monster, enough so to have several spin-offs. The X-books and Spider-Man books are still strong. He has brought in fantastic new talent. He has brought in new readers. Marvel stock is up (due in part to several successful movies).

It's kinda funny how much of what you say here is, in fact, anecdote.

Sales are up compared to what? The period immediately before him? The market's changed so much in the past two decades that you could just as easily attribute an increase in sales to fluctuations in the market as to anything he did. And it's a fact that sales aren't up to levels that were considered low two decades ago.

There was once a time when there were plenty of Non-X, non-Spider books that were successful.

Your statement about the X and Spider books being strong is opinion, not fact, unless you are talking about sales, in which case neither are as strong as they once were, though you could argue that they are strong relative to the market these days.

He has alienated a great many readers and quite a few top talents. And that's a fact, as well.

And in case you hadn't noticed, Marvel's stock is down as of late. Not trying to be obnoxious, but do a little fact-checking yourself before you try to call someone else out on it.

[Brian M.]

http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=143241

Sold out atleast on the Diamond level.

[DDM]

Like I've said before, Joe has managed to sell a hell of a lot of comics and get Marvel a hell of a lot of press.

Why in the world should they even possibly consider firing him?

What's the point of selling a lot of books while in process the House of Ideas is completely destroyed? This is what Joe Quesada has done thus far in Uncanny X-Men, The Avengers, & now Amazing Spider-Man.

The next Editor-in-Chief will have to literally rebuild these franchises back to the skeletons that Joe has made. The damage will take years to rebuild.

It's no telling how long Spidey will get back after so many set backs.

[AC-WEB]

Let me get this straight.

You still enjoy the Spidy books enough to read all the new issues, but still want the man responsible those books to be fired?

If you hate the current writing that badly, why still read the book?

No, you got it crooked. :) I'm not enjoying SPider-Man as I once was, but I want to stay informed with what is going on and hopefully find out one day that changes have been made. So yeah, I flip through the book. So what?

[Brian M.]

What's the point of selling a lot of books while in process the House of Ideas is completely destroyed? This is what Joe Quesada has done thus far in Uncanny X-Men, The Avengers, & now Amazing Spider-Man.

The next Editor-in-Chief will have to literally rebuild these franchises back to the skeletons that Joe has made. The damage will take years to rebuild.

It's no telling how long Spidey will get back after so many set backs.

Maybe we should put Claremont back in charge?

What 'damage' has Joe done?

[Sonicjuce]

Unfortunately as long as Marvel is selling well he will stay.

[hmnut73]

None of this sounds like stepping on consumers toes in my mind. In fact, it shows just the opposite. As for pushing through ideas for reasons you deem spurious, if you read the interviews, if you believe JMS, Joe is doing what he thinks is best for the long term on at least Spider-Man.

Here's the facts, not anecdotal garbage: Marvel Comics Group is stronger as a line now than when Quesada took over. Sales are up. Under Quesada, Marvel has turned a Non X or Spider book into a top selling monster, enough so to have several spin-offs. The X-books and Spider-Man books are still strong. He has brought in fantastic new talent. He has brought in new readers. Marvel stock is up (due in part to several successful movies).


Okay I have to say it is not "in part" to the movies it is almost only because of the movies. If you look at any stock report about Marvel they will mention the movies much more often than they mention the comic books. And Joe Q can't take credit for the movie sucess, he has nothing to do with Marvel Studios.

But other than that I agree with you. I think in Joe Q's twisted mind he believes what he is doing for Spider-Man is in the best interest of Spider-Man. I don't think that it is that readers don't want to read about a married Spider-Man but rather writers don't want to write about one. Of course that can translate to their lack of skill as writers but what ever.

Again I think it goes back to the movies, the movies are the money makers and Joe Q's main job is keeping the comic book house from burning down during the break between movies.

[Fatguy]

#4!

Quesada rules. We should send him thank you cards.

[brett tolino]

I'll admit he's moved a few Marvel Comics but really, that's not anything any other EIC hasn't done before him. In fact, many other EIC's have sold more and as a result of their leadership, published better quality material.

The point is, Marvel Comics used to be all about their readers. They created an atmosphere of fun, leading consumers to believe that the readers were the ones who mattered. Whether it was true or not is another story but they made readers feel valued and that's what separated Marvel from DC.

Joe Quesada on the other hand has created an environment of contempt and disgust for many, many readers. And it's not just with the latest Spider-Man fiasco, it's with his views on just about everything.

He views readers as mindless sheep who will buy anything, no matter how bad the material is (Civil War, House of M and One More Day) or how late it ships (all of them -- Civil War, House of M and One More Day). Whether this is true or not is irrelevant; because of his degenerative philosophy, the quality has declined and there is no longer a need to meet deadlines. Marvel Comics no longer come out with any sense of schedule or regularity but whenever they feel like it (Spider-Man was supposed to be bi-weekly for One More Day, it shipped whenever and now, it'll be 3x a month. WTF?).

The latest Spider-Man fiasco is exemplary of all things bad with Joe Quesada. His reasoning no longer makes sense. He says he broke the marriage to make Spider Man accessable for the future... but his marriage had no bearing on the character's appeal for 20 years.

People still bought his comics, they still bought his toys, wore his t-shirts, saw his movies, slept on his bedsheets. No one cared whether Peter Parker was married ... except Joe Quesada and a handful of other 'creators', not the readers.

Get it? Joe Quesada has been upset for 20 long, long years that Spider-Man got married. That's a long time to be angry and upset about a comic character.

It's all he talks about with peers and fans, at cons and in interviews. This is a man obsessed. He needs to get over it and move on but instead, made his obsession a point of contention with his consumers. He has placed his own personal preference above that of Marvel's customers, who didn't have a problem with it for 20 years and neither did the licencees.

He knows he offended long time customers who may not even buy the book anymore but he doesn't care. He'll take the gamble, he'll take the risk. He'll get new readers, he thinks.... and THINKS is the key word but he's gambling with the customers of a publically held company.

Even if it does succeed, how long before the new readers become old readers and Joe Quesada looks to replace them too? Quesada is a small picture thinker whose actions will have disastrous big picture, long term results.

Any time a company head starts to believe ANY of their customers are expendable, you know that company is headed for trouble.

Time for Joe to Go.

The industry needs new blood with a fresh perspective, someone who can sell books AND create a positive atmosphere for consumers, by a leader who recognizes and values the importance of ALL customers, not someone who looks down on them with contempt.

[metalhead_dave743]

In the first poll, I voted that he should be kicked back down to artist. But if these are the only options in the poll, then I'm calling for his head.

I wouldn't have minded if MJ died or got divorced with Peter. I wouldn't have even minded the Loki retcon which even though it would suck, it would have explained things better than... "It's Magic." But the fact the Quesada turns Peter into a whiny little self serving shit; who makes a deal with the devil to alter reality, REGARDLESS of the consequences or the wishes of Aunt May HERSELF... it all really makes my blood boil.

Instead of "with great power, comes great responsibility," Parker's new slogan should be "Screw Responsibility, the devil will save my ass."

Then we have Joe Quesada's mission to regress Peter back to the seventies, his hypocrytal contradictions in his damage control interviews, and the fact that he wants to rub it in when he says Peter making out with another woman is "a slap to reality."

So you know what? Fuck Joe Quesada... fire his ass.

[Harlock]

It's kinda funny how much of what you say here is, in fact, anecdote.

Ok, let's hear it.

Sales are up compared to what? The period immediately before him? The market's changed so much in the past two decades that you could just as easily attribute an increase in sales to fluctuations in the market as to anything he did. And it's a fact that sales aren't up to levels that were considered low two decades ago.

Yes, compared to the period immediately before him. You may call it a market swing, but commercial markets just don't swing in and of themselves. The fact is Joe Quesada brought Marvel Comics back from bankruptcy. He has done so in the post bust days vs. the halcyon '90s. Sure sales levels are lower than they were back in the 1990s. But Quesada has kept Marvel Comics successful despite that. Credit where credit is due. The fact is that under his tenure as EiC sales of Marvel Comics in general have gone up and event-crossovers like Civil War and World War Hulk have met with commercial and critical success as well as coverage in the media.

There was once a time when there were plenty of Non-X, non-Spider books that were successful.

"Successful" is not a top-seller. I specifically said top-seller. When was the last time a non X-book or Spider-Man book was outsold for a period of say a year?

Your statement about the X and Spider books being strong is opinion, not fact, unless you are talking about sales, in which case neither are as strong as they once were, though you could argue that they are strong relative to the market these days.

I am talking about the market these days in this case. Comparing sales now to the '90s is apples and oranges. The speculators and stockbrokers and investment seekers have left the market as compared the the '90s.

He has alienated a great many readers and quite a few top talents. And that's a fact, as well.

Well, that's really anecdotal. You can point to internet message boards and say, "See, pissed off fans," but that does not mean there are in fact more pissed off fans than fans that are content. Let's face it, most folks come to places like this to whine and gripe (this is anecdotal too, see how that works?) So, really, what we have to go by is sales. It is about the only empirical data we can really point to in order to determine popularity and success.

Look at the fact of what writers Quesada has brought in and the ones he is currently using. Waid, Bendis, JMS, Whedon, Brubaker, Fraction, Aaron...

Also, just to toss this out here, The Ultimate line started under Quesada. Though it is flagging now, it started strong and has some really devoted fans (though I personally hate the Ultimate line).

And in case you hadn't noticed, Marvel's stock is down as of late. Not trying to be obnoxious, but do a little fact-checking yourself before you try to call someone else out on it.

Hmm, dubious at best. Under Quesada's tenure, Marvel stock has grown in value vastly. Look back in 2000 and see what the value of Marvel Entertainment stock was. By the end of the year, it had dropped to less than two dollars. Now, look at the value today. As of close of the Market yesterday, it was up to $24.27. Sure, the movies have a lot to do with that. But, the fact is that during Quesada's tenure as EiC, the stock prices have grown, despite being a little down of late. So, what fact checking did I not do?

And, finally, just to throw this out there, have you ever noticed how someone says something like, "not to be obnoxious" and then goes right on and says or does something obnoxious?
;)

[AC-WEB]

I'll admit he's moved a few Marvel Comics but really, that's not anything any other EIC hasn't done before him. In fact, many other EIC's have sold more and as a result of their leadership, published better quality material.

The point is, Marvel Comics used to be all about their readers. They created an atmosphere of fun, leading consumers to believe that the readers were the ones who mattered. Whether it was true or not is another story but they made readers feel valued and that's what separated Marvel from DC.

Joe Quesada on the other hand has created an environment of contempt and disgust for many, many readers. And it's not just with the latest Spider-Man fiasco, it's with his views on just about everything.

He views readers as mindless sheep who will buy anything, no matter how bad the material is (Civil War, House of M and One More Day) or how late it ships (all of them -- Civil War, House of M and One More Day). Whether this is true or not is irrelevant; because of his degenerative philosophy, the quality has declined and there is no longer a need to meet deadlines. Marvel Comics no longer come out with any sense of schedule or regularity but whenever they feel like it (Spider-Man was supposed to be bi-weekly for One More Day, it shipped whenever and now, it'll be 3x a month. WTF?).

The latest Spider-Man fiasco is exemplary of all things bad with Joe Quesada. His reasoning no longer makes sense. He says he broke the marriage to make Spider Man accessable for the future... but his marriage had no bearing on the character's appeal for 20 years.

People still bought his comics, they still bought his toys, wore his t-shirts, saw his movies, slept on his bedsheets. No one cared whether Peter Parker was married ... except Joe Quesada and a handful of other 'creators', not the readers.

Get it? Joe Quesada has been upset for 20 long, long years that Spider-Man got married. That's a long time to be angry and upset about a comic character.

It's all he talks about with peers and fans, at cons and in interviews. This is a man obsessed. He needs to get over it and move on but instead, made his obsession a point of contention with his consumers. He has placed his own personal preference above that of Marvel's customers, who didn't have a problem with it for 20 years and neither did the licencees.

He knows he offended long time customers who may not even buy the book anymore but he doesn't care. He'll take the gamble, he'll take the risk. He'll get new readers, he thinks.... and THINKS is the key word but he's gambling with the customers of a publically held company.

Even if it does succeed, how long before the new readers become old readers and Joe Quesada looks to replace them too? Quesada is a small picture thinker whose actions will have disastrous big picture, long term results.

Any time a company head starts to believe ANY of their customers are expendable, you know that company is headed for trouble.

Time for Joe to Go.

The industry needs new blood with a fresh perspective, someone who can sell books AND create a positive atmosphere for consumers, by a leader who recognizes and values the importance of ALL customers, not someone who looks down on them with contempt.

Awesome Comment! You hit a lot of the points that I have been thinking about.

[Alan2099]

Whoever said he was upset for that long? Could be that several years ago he started thinking about what would make Spidey sell and decided that the marriage would have to go. Maybe he liked it at first but grew tired of it.

[Dr. K]

And, finally, just to throw this out there, have you ever noticed how someone says something like, "not to be obnoxious" and then goes right on and says or does something obnoxious?
;)

Hey, at least I was making an effort. As opposed to the polite and gentlemanly way you called my opinions "anecdotal garbage."

[Fatguy]

What's the point of selling a lot of books while in process the House of Ideas is completely destroyed?

The point is, that apparently a lot of people disagree about them being "destroyed". Avengers, for example, has consistently sold better under Joe Q than it had for YEARS.

Who's gonna come on and undo that kind of "damage"?

[Dr. K]

Well, that's really anecdotal. You can point to internet message boards and say, "See, pissed off fans," but that does not mean there are in fact more pissed off fans than fans that are content. Let's face it, most folks come to places like this to whine and gripe (this is anecdotal too, see how that works?) So, really, what we have to go by is sales. It is about the only empirical data we can really point to in order to determine popularity and success.

Would you like for me to assemble a list of people who won't work for Marvel while Joe Q is in charge and have publicly stated so? Would that convince you that it is a fact and not an anecdote? Because there are such people.

Hmm, dubious at best. Under Quesada's tenure, Marvel stock has grown in value vastly. Look back in 2000 and see what the value of Marvel Entertainment stock was. By the end of the year, it had dropped to less than two dollars. Now, look at the value today. As of close of the Market yesterday, it was up to $24.27. Sure, the movies have a lot to do with that. But, the fact is that during Quesada's tenure as EiC, the stock prices have grown, despite being a little down of late. So, what fact checking did I not do?

As others have stated Quesada had NOTHING to do with the success of Marvel's stock. But if you look at how the stock has been doing since OMD was released, it has been steadily trending down. That may be coincidence and it may change, but it is quite true.

As for the rest of your arguments, I can't be bothered. Neither of us is going to convince the other, and we're not really saying anything new. I can dig out stats as well as anyone, but we're using different metrics to rate his performance.

[Harlock]

Hey, at least I was making an effort. As opposed to the polite and gentlemanly way you called my opinions "anecdotal garbage."

At least now you admit that they were opinions and not facts. Progress! And, apparently pretending to be nice is more acceptable than shooting straight. I understand. If it makes you feel better, I'll go back and call them your anecdotal opinions.

[Harlock]

Would you like for me to assemble a list of people who won't work for Marvel while Joe Q is in charge and have publicly stated so? Would that convince you that it is a fact and not an anecdote? Because there are such people.

Sure there are such people. That happens in any industry. There are certain football players who won't play for specific teams, coaches, GMs and owners. That does not mean those teams cannot be successful or that the team, coach, GM or owner are wrong and should be fired. It doesn't mean the player, or in this case, the talent, is wrong either. It's simply a non-issue.

As others have stated Quesada had NOTHING to do with the success of Marvel's stock. But if you look at how the stock has been doing since OMD was released, it has been steadily trending down. That may be coincidence and it may change, but it is quite true.

I don't think this is entirely true. I cannot divorce myself from the fact that many of the talked about and upcoming movies from Marvel are taking advantage of characters and groups that are popular now in the comics themselves.

As for the rest of your arguments, I can't be bothered. Neither of us is going to convince the other, and we're not really saying anything new. I can dig out stats as well as anyone, but we're using different metrics to rate his performance.

I think that may be the most factual statement you've made today regarding this issue of Quesada as Editor in Chief. Thanks for the short debate!

[matthewaos]

Would you like for me to assemble a list of people who won't work for Marvel while Joe Q is in charge and have publicly stated so? Would that convince you that it is a fact and not an anecdote? Because there are such people.

Yeah, I would like to see a list. I believe that under JQ many writers and artists have come to Marvel, that they wouldn't with the previous standards (= what Shooter made marvel). Writers like morisson, Ennis, Ellis and such wouldn't consider come to Marvel. Hell, even JMS wouldn't consider it, despite the fact that I never liked his work. And Neil Gaiman? And I think under JQ many guys were able to appreciate artists like Alex Maleev, for example. JQ stoped the whole "draw comics the marvel way" thing and brought real talents.

I am curious to see your arguments, I may be wrong, but I think that more people came to marvel that left under JQ.

Either way I think that he could use some Spider-Man lessons.

[ZT4]

On the scope of what he did for Marvel, statistics say he should only go if HE'S bored with the job. I truley think he's done wonders for the market and moving on to help other companies acheive the same level would only be a benefit.

But he should'nt have been part of anything creativly, everything is art to him, not story, and story has all but evaporated in everything bar cult titles and titles that have concepts powerful enough to handle them consistently.

What was fresh and edgy has become tedious and predictable, but as long as "tedious and predictable" still has life in the market with the delusion of "events", he has no reason to go

[Josef F.]

Joe Q re-introduced Wheatcakes.
You made fun of wheatcakes as a collective.

Guess who's better?

[Robo Ape]

you can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs

Just because he does well for sales cannot offset some of the damage he now seems to be inflicting on some of the titles.

[brett tolino]

Whoever said he was upset for that long? Could be that several years ago he started thinking about what would make Spidey sell and decided that the marriage would have to go. Maybe he liked it at first but grew tired of it.

Quesada has been upset about it from Day One, he's made no bones about it and never hid his disdain for it since he got into the industry a very long time ago. It's all he discusses at cons, with fans and pros alike.

Whether Parker is a better character single or married can be debated from now until Doomsday. However, this isn't the first time he or any other creator has attempted to break up the marriage and each and every time it was met with abysmal failure. Yet he keeps trying, keeps making the same points over and over and is willing to risk the loss of customers to prove his point, even though he's already been proven wrong before... and the marriage NEVER hurt the character's appeal or sales before, not in comic sales or licensee revenues. In fact, the only time he DID lose sales or appeal, was whenever they tried to reboot or break the marriage up. Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it.

For those who say but BND is sold out -- yes, at Diamond. Tons of copies are still sitting on the shelves at retailer level and it will be months before retailers begin readjusting their orders, which many have already gone on record saying they have to do.

If this was Quesada's company, I'd say, go ahead. No one is stopping you from damaging your own business. But its a publically held company and he is gambling with long time customers just so he could have his own way, his personal preference, like a baby. And when a leader places his own needs above that of the business, that business is in trouble. For those who say he's doing this to better the character, see my prior post above. Spider Man has always sold, in comics and merchandising, for the past 20 years he's been married. Now, comic sales are in jeopardy.

But Quesada has always held readers as disposable... exchange old readers for new ones but what he has done to these readers, he'll eventually do to the new readers... unless the new readers agree with everything he does. And when they don't, he'll cast them aside as disposable as current readers.


Controversy and hype are nothing new to comics but Quesada does so with a viral sense of contempt for consumers who do not agree with him. What is needed is a leader who recognizes the value of all consumers.

My advice to readers of BND?

Don't Believe The Hype.

Before long, BND readers will be as dispensable to Quesada as the current ones he cast aside.

[DDM]

But Quesada has always held readers as disposable... exchange old readers for new ones but what he has done to these readers, he'll eventually do to the new readers... unless the new readers agree with everything he does. And when they don't, he'll cast them aside as disposable as current readers.

Since Joe Quesada became Editor-in-Chief, he held nothing but contempt for regular comic book readers. Is it because we hold his feet to fire? Or does Joe completely misunderstand that you don't throw crap at your consumers & expect them to eat it?

I, for one, have never understood Joe Quesada's obsessive hatred for comic book readers. Coming from an Editor-in-Chief, it makes his attitude magnified & toxic to his whole editorial team. Likewise, many of his editors reflect his attitude. And the whole negative toxin just creeps into the business model, corrupting it.

This is one of the main reasons Joe Quesada must exit as Marvel's Editor-in-Chief. His hatred for comic book fans is in the wrong place considering we are his business.


My advice to readers of BND?

Don't Believe The Hype.

Before long, BND readers will be as dispensable to Quesada as the current ones he cast aside.

I agree. The more Quesada hypes something, these a RED FLAGS that something is terribly wrong with the thing he's hyping. Joe Quesada is all hype & no substance. After a time, Joe's like the boy who has cried wolf. And we all know what happened to the boy who cried wolf...:evilsmile

[Sean Whitmore]

I, for one, have never understood Joe Quesada's obsessive hatred for comic book readers.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

It's probably cause you made it up. Persecution complexes are funny like that.

I can just see Joe handing out comics at a con.

"Grrr! I hate you!"

"But why, Joe?!"

"No reason!!! Now send your brother over here, I want to tell him I hate him too!"

"No, Joe, no!"

"Hahahahaha!"


SEAN

[Expletive Deleted]

I, for one, have never understood Joe Quesada's obsessive hatred for comic book readers.I, for one, have never understood your obsessive hatred for Joe Quesada.

Seriously, DDM. You take every single opportunity you can to insult the man. Any time his name is so much as mentioned in a thread, you're right there with a list of accusations, personal attacks, and a whole bunch of invective. I can understand hating the decisions that he's made or the comic books he's had a hand in, but the purely personal quality of your hatred for the man befuddles me.

[wolp]

Oh, You gotta to let me know...should I stay or should I go???!

And the answer is no...

[ZT4]

I, for one, have never understood your obsessive hatred for Joe Quesada.

Seriously, DDM. You take every single opportunity you can to insult the man. Any time his name is so much as mentioned in a thread, you're right there with a list of accusations, personal attacks, and a whole bunch of invective. I can understand hating the decisions that he's made or the comic books he's had a hand in, but the purely personal quality of your hatred for the man befuddles me.

I'd like to take this post, edit it slightly, and put it on any and all Doctor Who forums replacing Joe's name with "Russel T Davies" if you don't mind.:)

But in SLIGHT defense of DDM, he's not saying anything I have'nt read on other forums. Casual or otherwise, there's a lot that prefer to see the damage done, not the positives brought with statistic marketing and "events"

[Harlock]

Oh, You gotta to let me know...should I stay or should I go???!

And the answer is no...

To which? Should he stay? Or, should he go?

[brett tolino]

Both Quesada and his editorial staff come off with disdain and contempt for readers in nearly every interview they give, especially the ones who don't agree with their decisions.

The point really is very simple, he did all this over a silly little superhero marriage, a marriage no one really minded about except himself and a handful of editors. You know what, if you can't deal with it, find another job. The marriage did not have a negative effect on Spidey's sales for 20 years nor have they effected movie ticket sales or merchandising revenue.

But comic revenue is in jeopardy now.

Joe Quesada put future company revenue on the line all because he didn't like a superhero being married. And if you think all these new readers are going to make up for all the ones he's losing, you're gravely mistaken. It's not like Marvel hasn't been down this road before.

But Quesada has to have his way, because HE doesn't want to see the hero married.

That's a guy with a serious problem.

[philly]

Both Quesada and his editorial staff come off with disdain and contempt for readers in nearly every interview they give, especially the ones who don't agree with their decisions.

The point really is very simple, he did all this over a silly little superhero marriage, a marriage no one really minded about except himself and a handful of editors. You know what, if you can't deal with it, find another job. The marriage did not have a negative effect on Spidey's sales for 20 years nor have they effected movie ticket sales or merchandising revenue.

But comic revenue is in jeopardy now.

Joe Quesada put future company revenue on the line all because he didn't like a superhero being married. And if you think all these new readers are going to make up for all the ones he's losing, you're gravely mistaken. It's not like Marvel hasn't been down this road before.

But Quesada has to have his way, because HE doesn't want to see the hero married.

That's a guy with a serious problem.

Joe Q does have serious problems, that's why you have to vote with your dollar and not support "Brand New Day". Once the books starts dropping in sales, he can't use the excuse that a married Spidey is the problem with the books, he will finally have to face the fact that he has to take real responsibility for how much he screwed up with the character, not the lazy and disrespectful Magic recon he did with One More Day.

[Alan2099]

The only "hate" for anyone I see in those interviews is typically directed towards the crazed fanboys that rant on about how they're evil and how much they hate everything.

And honestly those people deserve what they get.

And even then, I see no real malice, more an attitude of, "well, those people are probably going to hate it, then again, they hate everything, so screw 'em." Which I honestly can't disagree with.

[Sean Whitmore]

I'd like to take this post, edit it slightly, and put it on any and all Doctor Who forums replacing Joe's name with "Russel T Davies" if you don't mind.:)

You're comparing him to the Outpost Gallifrey lot? I may have to delete that...borders on being an outright insult, to my mind.

:p


SEAN

[Falconswings]

I don't think he should be fired per se, but I think he's got a lot to answer for, for goofing up Spider-Man like he did. At least admit that it was a bad idea and poorly executed and take the necessary steps to fix it. I've talked to tons of people at several of the comic shops I consistently frequent and they all say the same thing: the storyline sucks and it was a bad move. I don't think killing M.J. is the right thing to do either...I think the killing of a character just because you can't figure out what to do with him/her is just bad writing. I think female characters have it rough enough as is in comics nowadays. Just look at for all the crap that they've done to women in comics. If it's intentional, I dunno but, it's sure a disturbing trend that I, for one, am not in the least fond of. One More Day is right up along those lines, even if indirectly. The female character is in the way so they take steps to write her off and do something totally drastic with her. Anyway, I'm not trying to stir up controversy on my first post. Just thought I'd register and say wassup to everyone while giving my opinion on this latest Marvel venture. :D

[psm]

Joe Quesada put future company revenue on the line all because he didn't like a superhero being married. And if you think all these new readers are going to make up for all the ones he's losing, you're gravely mistaken. It's not like Marvel hasn't been down this road before.

But Quesada has to have his way, because HE doesn't want to see the hero married.

That's a guy with a serious problem.

Actually, you've been misinformed. Although, Quesada didn't want to have Parker married it wasn't his decision alone. From what I understand the decision to nullify Peters/MJ marriage was agreed upon by various creators during a Marvel summit meeting. The creators include Quesada, Brevroot, and JMS (I think Bendis, Millar and Slott were also involved but I would need to double check). To pin the entire decision on Quesada (although being EIC the blame does rest with him) is erroneous.

[darksaint124]

Actually, you've been misinformed. Although, Quesada didn't want to have Parker married it wasn't his decision alone. From what I understand the decision to nullify Peters/MJ marriage was agreed upon by various creators during a Marvel summit meeting. The creators include Quesada, Brevroot, and JMS (I think Bendis, Millar and Slott were also involved but I would need to double check). To pin the entire decision on Quesada (although being EIC the blame does rest with him) is erroneous.

First off Quesada even said it himself that the first thing he wanted to do as EiC was find a way out of the marraige, he basically threw everyone else under a bus by putting their names out to the public when it was still his idea. But, putting aside him playing around in the Marvel sandbox on a whim, the reason why I think he should go is all of the schedule problems. Everyone talks about how much he sells, but how much more would he sell if ALL of the books actually came out on time. For example look at Astonishing X-men. It started in 2004, and about 4 years later it still has not reached issue 24 out of a 25 issue run. Mighty Avengers just started a story arc that New Avengers was finished with a while back. Continuity problems galore, and when they're finally addressed the write in to fix it is just plain horrible. And I'm also starting to see a pattern of everything that has been written in the past 5-7 years does not stay around for too long. Now with the whole sales issue, I seriously think that even though sales are "up" that they are still losing money in the long run. And what about the casual fans that drop books because they never know when they are going to be able to continue their current story arc. This is one of his main jobs, and simply put, he's under performing.

[666andahalf]

Actually, you've been misinformed. Although, Quesada didn't want to have Parker married it wasn't his decision alone. From what I understand the decision to nullify Peters/MJ marriage was agreed upon by various creators during a Marvel summit meeting. The creators include Quesada, Brevroot, and JMS (I think Bendis, Millar and Slott were also involved but I would need to double check). To pin the entire decision on Quesada (although being EIC the blame does rest with him) is erroneous.

However, Joe Quesada was the one who spearheaded the anti-marriage movement (especially in nearly every Joe Fridays running up to Civil War). Regardless of who agreed with him, he's the figure head of this whole thing and therefore the main target of everyone's frustration.

I for one don't think he should be fired. HOWEVER, he should at least make some changes. He's interfered too much on many levels, lets books get delays after delays and helped move the industry into an "Event War", detracting the main books with crossover events (every once and a while is fine, but Spidey hasn't had a major event break since before House of M). I liked the direction that the Avengers are going, I like Ultimate Spider-Man, and he supports Spider-Girl. Yes I'm pissed about the One More Day fiastco, yes I'm pissed about how he's treating the fans recently (Slap of reality?!), but say he steps down, who's going to fill in his shoes? Despite all the negative things about Joe, the new editor will be judged buy his predecessor who brought national attention to Marvel's comics and sales (for the Events).

He's done some good things, he just needs to get a "slap of reality" himself and be a little more modest.

[DeadXMan]

it kinda hard to be modest when you take a bankrupted comic book company back into the black in less time it was expected and growth they haven't seen in nearly 15 yrs.

[darksaint124]

it kinda hard to be modest when you take a bankrupted comic book company back into the black in less time it was expected and growth they haven't seen in nearly 15 yrs.

But what happens when the gimmicks run out.

[matthewaos]

But what happens when the gimmicks run out.

Which they should because I'm bored, and I think most of the people are. In the end they will have a good story as a huge event, and no one will care.

[psm]

However, Joe Quesada was the one who spearheaded the anti-marriage movement (especially in nearly every Joe Fridays running up to Civil War). Regardless of who agreed with him, he's the figure head of this whole thing and therefore the main target of everyone's frustration.


Admittedly, he is the main target of everyone's frustration. He's the EIC and has been the most vocal about this. That doesn't mean its correct to only blame him for the event. If there had been enough opposition within the company, the whole idea would have been scrapped. But Joe and many other creators all believed this was the best decision for the character. They are all culpable. To pin the entire event (good or bad) on him is a emotional reaction and not a logical one.

[sabongero]

Marvel is enjoying it's most productive and most money-making successes under Joe Q.'s watch. Whether people hate him or not, he won't be fired by the corporate boys. The bottom line is the dollar sign folks.

I can't vote on this. Nothing will come of it whether I vote let him stay or get rid of him.

[CyberCoyote]

He needs to just get his hands out of the creative end of it. The guy was an artist, and he's got some good publishing ideas and comes off to the public as quite decent and approachable. But OMD is a giant flashing warning sign that he needs to keep a step back. Does he hype like a street vendor? Sure, but it sells books even if it annoys me :)

I also think he needs to give more power back to the editors of books and enforce deadlines more, but that may be happening, and even if not it can be addressed.

[Chiasm]

Which they should because I'm bored, and I think most of the people are. In the end they will have a good story as a huge event, and no one will care.

Did you read comics in the 90's? When the well was running dry during the collapse of the industry in the 90's all Marvel did was crank out event after event in hopes of snagging sales. And the fans started to loathe it. Theres an excellent article about the 90's collapse on the front page echoing this.

[Chiasm]

Personally I've learned you should never believe a word out of Joe Q's mouth as he is prone to hyperbole or outright lies when pushing a book or plotline. So a small part of me hopes that this whole BND thing is just a big temporary storyline, that MJ still remembers everything, and that a couple of years down the road we'll somehow see them undoing Mephisto's spell. Should this happen then BND will have been a great storyline.

But if Joe Q is telling the truth for once then he's done a huge disservice to Spidey stories because he's basically written the character of Peter Parker into a box. Because by returning Peter to his roots he's basically said Peter can never grow as a character and must stay the same. Which is going to make him boring.

[PamGrierOverdrive]

I won't blather on about the pros and cons of Quesada's rule because he's clearly the most polarizing figure in comics, but I will say that I think he should go because he's a pompous douchebag. I like Marvel, but I've been put off by their vibe over the past several years, and I believe much of it has to do with his attitude. He's responsible for the Avengers selling well? Well, I could write a book with Wolverine and Spider-Man, call it The Defenders, and it would sell well. Then I could take credit for making The Defenders a viable property again. But it's all B.S.

I would like him to leave because I just don't like his swagger, pure and simple.

[Brian M.]

I won't blather on about the pros and cons of Quesada's rule because he's clearly the most polarizing figure in comics, but I will say that I think he should go because he's a pompous douchebag. I like Marvel, but I've been put off by their vibe over the past several years, and I believe much of it has to do with his attitude. He's responsible for the Avengers selling well? Well, I could write a book with Wolverine and Spider-Man, call it The Defenders, and it would sell well. Then I could take credit for making The Defenders a viable property again. But it's all B.S.

I would like him to leave because I just don't like his swagger, pure and simple.

Obviously that should disqualify him for the job...not his work...not the result of his ideas...no no. It's how he makes you feel on the inside and if your too soft and he rattles you too much he should be fired.

Quesada hurt my feelings, he should go.

[Brian M.]

First off Quesada even said it himself that the first thing he wanted to do as EiC was find a way out of the marraige, he basically threw everyone else under a bus by putting their names out to the public when it was still his idea. But, putting aside him playing around in the Marvel sandbox on a whim, the reason why I think he should go is all of the schedule problems. Everyone talks about how much he sells, but how much more would he sell if ALL of the books actually came out on time. For example look at Astonishing X-men. It started in 2004, and about 4 years later it still has not reached issue 24 out of a 25 issue run. Mighty Avengers just started a story arc that New Avengers was finished with a while back. Continuity problems galore, and when they're finally addressed the write in to fix it is just plain horrible. And I'm also starting to see a pattern of everything that has been written in the past 5-7 years does not stay around for too long. Now with the whole sales issue, I seriously think that even though sales are "up" that they are still losing money in the long run. And what about the casual fans that drop books because they never know when they are going to be able to continue their current story arc. This is one of his main jobs, and simply put, he's under performing.

How do you consider they are losing money with sales being up? Look at the last 3 years...say after House of M, show me where sales dip.

[PamGrierOverdrive]

Obviously that should disqualify him for the job...not his work...not the result of his ideas...no no. It's how he makes you feel on the inside and if your too soft and he rattles you too much he should be fired.

Quesada hurt my feelings, he should go.


Deal with it. Much like Quesada, I'm not trying to hide my arrogance. But fear not, fanboys, for my whims mean nothing in the grand scheme of things.

[darksaint124]

How do you consider they are losing money with sales being up? Look at the last 3 years...say after House of M, show me where sales dip.

What I'm saying is how much more money would Marvel be making if every title came out on time, instead of 8 books out of 12, or Astonishing which can't put out 24 books in 4 years. And up from what In the 80's and early to mid 90's these numbers would be a disaster. When all the hype plays through and there are no more events to save the books, what then?????
Seriously once one event ends another begins, they don't even care about telling stories, and the continuity in books coming out in the same month is horrid. Look at OMD/BND, New/Mighty Avengers, Does anyone have any clue as to where all of those stories fit. Not to mention the craptastic fill-in for when Astonishing takes place, prior to MC.
And to show your sales dip. Since HoM how many new series have come out. Now how many of these series keep the same number of readers the month(or 2 or 3, aaahh who knows with marvel anymore) after. Without any events to hype the horrible stories(that also don't come out on time)you would actually get an accurate account of the numbers and not just retailers buying a lot of something because its an event.

[doctorimpossible]

Marvel is enjoying it's most productive and most money-making successes under Joe Q.'s watch. Whether people hate him or not, he won't be fired by the corporate boys. The bottom line is the dollar sign folks.

I can't vote on this. Nothing will come of it whether I vote let him stay or get rid of him.

This has little, if anything to do with the comic side of their business. Marvel is making money because they are licensing their characters out to movies, products and services. See the Iron Man and Hulk Movies, an aisle of Marvel toys at Target and Spiderman with the United Nations. Do some research into where Marvel is making their money and better yet, where people project their potential future will come from, it's certainly not the printed comics side.

Marvel makes more money making a Spiderman movie than it ever would making arc after arc of comics and their business is strong because the movies have been bringing people back. Even the future slate is expected to include big names like Thor and Captain America. Don't believe me? Head on over to a finance site, even something as simple as Yahoo Finance and listen to the analysts, Marvel makes their money on licensing, not comics.

Joe Quesada is not responsible for the economic boom Marvel had, deciding to sell of the rights to their characters for huge chunks of money and cuts of movie profits (which are bigger now due to Marvel Studios), is. This isn't a hate post or anything like that, it's simply meant to inform. People put a lot of weight into the EiC being the man making the money for Marvel but times have changed, friends.

[Chiasm]

This has little, if anything to do with the comic side of their business. Marvel is making money because they are licensing their characters out to movies, products and services. See the Iron Man and Hulk Movies, an aisle of Marvel toys at Target and Spiderman with the United Nations. Do some research into where Marvel is making their money and better yet, where people project their potential future will come from, it's certainly not the printed comics side.

Marvel makes more money making a Spiderman movie than it ever would making arc after arc of comics and their business is strong because the movies have been bringing people back. Even the future slate is expected to include big names like Thor and Captain America. Don't believe me? Head on over to a finance site, even something as simple as Yahoo Finance and listen to the analysts, Marvel makes their money on licensing, not comics.

Joe Quesada is not responsible for the economic boom Marvel had, deciding to sell of the rights to their characters for huge chunks of money and cuts of movie profits (which are bigger now due to Marvel Studios), is. This isn't a hate post or anything like that, it's simply meant to inform. People put a lot of weight into the EiC being the man making the money for Marvel but times have changed, friends.

Absolutely 100% correct. Its all about the movies and the merchandising now.

Its also why you see the movies now dictating storylines in the comics. Spidey didn't go Back in Black because the storyline demanded it. He went BiB because he was going to be in the black costume in the movie and so Marvel wanted him in black in the comic as well so he'd be recognizable to potential new fans drawn in by the movie. Marvel made a huge mistake with the first X-men movie because at the time the X-men in the comic were comprised of characters like Maggot, Marrow, Cecelia Reyes, and others who weren't in the movie. Any potential new fans were "Who the **** are these people" and left. Since then Marvel has been much more careful to make sure the books are like the movies. Take Hulk for instance. At the time of the Hulk movie we were in the middle of the very long 30-40 issue consipracy arc where you hardly ever saw the Hulk and his only enemies were government goons. Then suddenly when the movie comes out we get this brief interlude for about four issues where he fights the Abomination. It made no sense in terms of the story arc but made perfect sense when you consider the timing of the movie.

[Brian M.]

What I'm saying is how much more money would Marvel be making if every title came out on time, instead of 8 books out of 12, or Astonishing which can't put out 24 books in 4 years. And up from what In the 80's and early to mid 90's these numbers would be a disaster. When all the hype plays through and there are no more events to save the books, what then?????
Seriously once one event ends another begins, they don't even care about telling stories, and the continuity in books coming out in the same month is horrid. Look at OMD/BND, New/Mighty Avengers, Does anyone have any clue as to where all of those stories fit. Not to mention the craptastic fill-in for when Astonishing takes place, prior to MC.
And to show your sales dip. Since HoM how many new series have come out. Now how many of these series keep the same number of readers the month(or 2 or 3, aaahh who knows with marvel anymore) after. Without any events to hype the horrible stories(that also don't come out on time)you would actually get an accurate account of the numbers and not just retailers buying a lot of something because its an event.

Your right, I misread your post. The lateness of books is really my only beef with Quesada. While he keeps my co-favorite Jean in the ground I kinda understand. Until they come up w/ a way to seperate the Phoenix from her and not continue that cycle it's best to keep her out of books.

[Spiffy]

Obviously that should disqualify him for the job...not his work...not the result of his ideas...no no. It's how he makes you feel on the inside and if your too soft and he rattles you too much he should be fired.

Quesada hurt my feelings, he should go.
More like "Quesada insulted my intelligence, he should go". At least for most people who are truly upset, versus those who are just playing around.

[jj9126]

He certainly shouldn't be fired. I do think he might consider stepping aside in the next year or two to get some new energy into the line

I think that's the key.

Joe brought some much-needed freshness to the entire Marvel Universe. Unfortunately, he's a little past his expiration date at this point....time for some new blood.

[psm]

Joe Quesada is not responsible for the economic boom Marvel had, deciding to sell of the rights to their characters for huge chunks of money and cuts of movie profits (which are bigger now due to Marvel Studios), is. This isn't a hate post or anything like that, it's simply meant to inform. People put a lot of weight into the EiC being the man making the money for Marvel but times have changed, friends.

Admittedly, you can't attribute all of Marvel's good fortune on Quesada (or even most of it). However, if you look at the publishing side I think you can get a pretty good idea of the effect he has had.


Marvel’s Publishing Segment net sales increased $7.8 million or 31% to $32.9 million in Q2 2007 principally due to continued strength in Civil War and the Dark Tower publications in the Direct and Mass Market channels. Operating income in the publishing segment rose to $14.7 million with an operating margin of 45% in Q2 2007, compared to operating income of $10.4 million with an operating margin of 41% in the prior-year period. The improvement in operating margin principally reflects the benefit of operating leverage resulting from sales of high margin trade books.

So I would definitely say that he has had a positive impact.

[rick]

This has little, if anything to do with the comic side of their business. Marvel is making money because they are licensing their characters out to movies, products and services. See the Iron Man and Hulk Movies, an aisle of Marvel toys at Target and Spiderman with the United Nations. Do some research into where Marvel is making their money and better yet, where people project their potential future will come from, it's certainly not the printed comics side.

Marvel makes more money making a Spiderman movie than it ever would making arc after arc of comics and their business is strong because the movies have been bringing people back. Even the future slate is expected to include big names like Thor and Captain America. Don't believe me? Head on over to a finance site, even something as simple as Yahoo Finance and listen to the analysts, Marvel makes their money on licensing, not comics.

Joe Quesada is not responsible for the economic boom Marvel had, deciding to sell of the rights to their characters for huge chunks of money and cuts of movie profits (which are bigger now due to Marvel Studios), is. This isn't a hate post or anything like that, it's simply meant to inform. People put a lot of weight into the EiC being the man making the money for Marvel but times have changed, friends.

Sort of missing the point there aren't you?

The sales of the comics themselves has gone way up under Joe's tenure.

And as long as those comic sales stay high, nobody is going to be giving Joe any problems over at marvel.

[doctorimpossible]

Admittedly, you can't attribute all of Marvel's good fortune on Quesada (or even most of it). However, if you look at the publishing side I think you can get a pretty good idea of the effect he has had.

So I would definitely say that he has had a positive impact.

I don't remember saying he didn't have a positive impact on their comic sales. I simply said when you examine their main sources of revenue, it's not from comics. Compare your quoted figures with the revenue of a Spiderman movie and tell me which makes more money.

Sort of missing the point there aren't you?

The sales of the comics themselves has gone way up under Joe's tenure.

And as long as those comic sales stay high, nobody is going to be giving Joe any problems over at marvel.

Again, you should read my first post before taking offense and responding with emotional, defensive replies that have nothing to do with what I posted. While I don't doubt Joe has increased sales, the sale of books isn't the reason Marvel is making cash, it's all about their licensing. Try the same method I mentioned to the above quoted poster, comparing comic sales with a movie. See which one made more. Then re-read my post to see I'm not bashing Joe Q., simply pointing out that comics aren't the cash cow for Marvel anymore.

I also never mentioned anyone giving Joe Q problems at marvel, so I'm not sure what you're replying to there either. Keep in mind that business involves more than just what you see. You're a small part of their total book of business as a comic reader, whether or not they lose readers won't matter much money wise to them seeing as the price of an action figure or movie ticket is far greater than a comic book.

[Harlock]

This has little, if anything to do with the comic side of their business.

So look at the comic side of their business. Marvel is outselling their competition. Nearly every month Marvel has more titles in the top ten than the other publishers. As far as I know, since Quesada is the EiC of the publishing division, this is his doing.

Many folks have stated (not you specifically here Doc Imp) that many failures, or even perceived failures such as BND, are Quesada's fault, despite other people agreeing with and writing and deciding such issues. So, by the same token, are not Marvel Publishing's successes also his "fault"?

[doctorimpossible]

So look at the comic side of their business. Marvel is outselling their competition. Nearly every month Marvel has more titles in the top ten than the other publishers. As far as I know, since Quesada is the EiC of the publishing division, this is his doing.

Many folks have stated (not you specifically here Doc Imp) that many failures, or even perceived failures such as BND, are Quesada's fault, despite other people agreeing with and writing and deciding such issues. So, by the same token, are not Marvel Publishing's successes also his "fault"?


I understand what you're saying but it appears as if you misunderstood my point. Compare a years worth of comic sales (as quoted above) to the revenue from any of the Spiderman movies. You have your answer there as to where the money is coming from. I made no mention (as you said) to him not being fit for the job, I only stated that if your'e going to evaluate him as being the savior of the company on the whole, that's simply not true. Of the publishing side? Sure, why not. The numbers speak for themselves.

[psm]

I don't remember saying he didn't have a positive impact on their comic sales. I simply said when you examine their main sources of revenue, it's not from comics.

I inferred something that was not being said. I apologize.

[Phil Hunn]

Many folks have stated (not you specifically here Doc Imp) that many failures, or even perceived failures such as BND, are Quesada's fault, despite other people agreeing with and writing and deciding such issues.

Since Quesada is EiC, the buck stops with him when it comes to the idiotic messes we've had to endure over the past couple of years, just as the buck stops with Dan Didio at DC for stuff like Countdown or the reality-punch.

The buck also stops with him, however, for things like the Ultimate line or the MAX & Icon imprints.

Should he be fired over OMD? No. Should he relinquish the post of EiC voluntarily because he has started to abuse his position in ways that are damaging to the actual quality of the stories being told? In my view, he should.

[darksaint124]

Since Quesada is EiC, the buck stops with him when it comes to the idiotic messes we've had to endure over the past couple of years, just as the buck stops with Dan Didio at DC for stuff like Countdown or the reality-punch.

The buck also stops with him, however, for things like the Ultimate line or the MAX & Icon imprints.

Should he be fired over OMD? No. Should he relinquish the post of EiC voluntarily because he has started to abuse his position in ways that are damaging to the actual quality of the stories being told? In my view, he should.

Let us not forget that nothing comes out on time anymore.

[Uproar]

I gotta say when Quesada started I believe that he done an amazing job bringing great artists and writers to the Marvel books, but whaen I got back into them I was hooked first on Daredevil, then New X-men and the Ultimate Lines. The biggest issue I have with Quesada now is the same reason that I stopped reading comics in the 90's money.
Everything that reviles me about 90's comics massive crossovers were you have to move from comic to comic to complete the story, when I was reading New X-men I could just read New X-men, I didn't have to read Uncanny or X-treme. Now if I want to read Messiah Complex I would have to flip to other books to complete the story, anyway I dropped the X-books after the serverly poor issues that followed Morrison's Issues, I mean Morrison wrote the best Magneto story I ever read and it was later retconed so that Xorn wasn't Magneto at all just so they could keep Xorn and Magneto in the books. Why!! crap on this brillant story everybody knew magneto would return at somepoint why try to weaken Morrison's story. As a result I now only read Astonishing and Ultimate X-men.
As a reader I want to read quality books I don't want to buy special limited edition covers, I mean how close are we to the dreaded return of foil covers. Or issues that spin off into other substandard books. Now after it took years for me to get back to spider-man I only read Amazing so now if I want to continue this book I have to read it 3 times a month, seriously man One More Day was a poor idea but just like the unmasking that was supposed to change spider-man forever it wont last long. Because in taking away Mary Jane Marvel have taken away Peter's responsibility in May's death this responsibility which is the core of the character.
At the minute it seems that marvel want to get all the money out of my pocket and frankly I'm know I don't want to revisit the 90's again.

[Phil Hunn]

crap on this brillant story everybody knew magneto would return at somepoint why try to weaken Morrison's story.

Because it was bollocks to begin with, and one of the worst straw-man arguments I've ever read?

seriously man One More Day was a poor idea but just like the unmasking that was supposed to change spider-man forever it wont last long.

If sales hold up, that's exactly what it's going to do. Why would Marvel renege on something that's making them potloads of money?

[ShaggyB]

It's kinda funny how much of what you say here is, in fact, anecdote.

Sales are up compared to what? The period immediately before him? The market's changed so much in the past two decades that you could just as easily attribute an increase in sales to fluctuations in the market as to anything he did. And it's a fact that sales aren't up to levels that were considered low two decades ago.

There was once a time when there were plenty of Non-X, non-Spider books that were successful.

Your statement about the X and Spider books being strong is opinion, not fact, unless you are talking about sales, in which case neither are as strong as they once were, though you could argue that they are strong relative to the market these days.

He has alienated a great many readers and quite a few top talents. And that's a fact, as well.

And in case you hadn't noticed, Marvel's stock is down as of late. Not trying to be obnoxious, but do a little fact-checking yourself before you try to call someone else out on it.

No to attack you considering im reading this way late but......

Why did you respond in this way?

1. "Sales are up compared to what? The period immediately before him?"
Compared to that of DC comics (Marvels big rival) and yes compared to before him they are up. If thats due to market flux or him or something his predecessor started is irrelivant. Hes the man in charge and he gets the credit. Thats how it works..... If i do an extremely good job for my team, my boss gets the credit from his boss, whether he gives me credit or not is up to him. Hes in charge and my job is make him look good. Thats business, it sucks but its life.

2. "There was once a time when there were plenty of Non-X, non-Spider books that were successful."
And that time came and went. We lost many titles that are now returning do to the poor sales of said books. Whats your point?

3. "Your statement about the X and Spider books being strong is opinion, not fact, unless you are talking about sales, in which case neither are as strong as they once were, though you could argue that they are strong relative to the market these days."
Ok, you answered that yourself. X books and Spidey are doing better than they were doing and not as good as they once were back in there prime time days. All statements claiming something is doing well are based on sales figures. Doesnt matter if i hate BND or not if it sells well im in a minority. (Or im bitching and buying at the same time. Again thats life, sales are king)

4. "He has alienated a great many readers and quite a few top talents. And that's a fact, as well."
Who? And you dont initiate change without offending some people.

5. "And in case you hadn't noticed, Marvel's stock is down as of late. Not trying to be obnoxious, but do a little fact-checking yourself before you try to call someone else out on it."
So is most of the printed media companies. Marvel has 2 blockbuster movies in the works and may have had to delay earnings on those which would drop its stock value as capital was not made when it originally was expected yet expenses were pushed through. Thats stocks for you, it has no indication on if the product isnt selling well or if they are "failing".


In short i dont see how your comments were rebuttals to what you wanted to rebut. please clarify if you are still on this board/thread.

[Phil Hunn]

Who? And you dont initiate change without offending some people.

For starters, Grant Morrison and Quesada had a public shouting match at a convention after Quesada learned of Morrison's shiny new exclusive contract with Vertigo, where Morrison expressed his anger at not only Quesada, but Bill Jemas as well, who he apparently had an understandably large amount of contempt for.

[PamGrierOverdrive]

Off the top of my head, I believe Jim Starlin, John Byrne, Frank Miller and Steve Gerber are several folks who won't work at Marvel while Quesada is in charge.

[ShaggyB]

Off the top of my head, I believe Jim Starlin, John Byrne, Frank Miller and Steve Gerber are several folks who won't work at Marvel while Quesada is in charge.

But who will? and what have those that will accomplished. Its been my experience in the last 20 years that writers and artist move between the companies for personal benefit and personal reasons. How is this any different.

I wont defend OMD and BND because they arent good tales in my opinion but that being said I like the art and i like spidey enough to keep reading. I enjoy marvel enough to continue purchasing the books. (Its basically the same thing i do with DC and Image/Top Cow, IDW and Aspen)

Writers and artists are replaced all the time. While some are classics some will not be classics. I dont see how people not wanting to work with him negates the fact that Marvel is doing better than it was previously before him. (Not as good as it was in its glory days but defiantly on an upward shift)

[Phil Hunn]

Off the top of my head, I believe Jim Starlin, John Byrne, Frank Miller and Steve Gerber are several folks who won't work at Marvel while Quesada is in charge.

Byrne is handling his dislike of Quesada's Marvel in an incredibly immature way, though. I can see why he wouldn't want to, but refusing to even type the company's name, instead typing "M****l" (and insisting that the posters at his message board do the same) just makes him look petulant.

[matthewaos]

I think Miller was pissed at marvel in the Shooter era, I don't know for now though. Morrison will probably not write again for marvel. But what about all those other guys? I think the ones working for marvel are more than those who are not. I wouldn't even consider Gaiman writing anything by the time Shooter was in charge.

[ShaggyB]

For starters, Grant Morrison and Quesada had a public shouting match at a convention after Quesada learned of Morrison's shiny new exclusive contract with Vertigo, where Morrison expressed his anger at not only Quesada, but Bill Jemas as well, who he apparently had an understandably large amount of contempt for.

Yeah i remember that, I benefited from that with Batman stories. Glad Morrison came over to the Bat. Again i dont see how that negates what he has done in the sales category.

Sure Marvel is making money in the Movie/Dvd market now and thats its major funder but, sales in comics are up over the competition and hes at the helm. How does writers or artist leaving negate those accomplishments?

[Khan Zor-El]

Joe Q sucks.

[Brian M.]

Joe Q sucks.

Another well formed, educated opinion.

[ShaggyB]

Another well formed, educated opinion.

least it was a short post lol

But in all seriousness when debating a company head one must move past the personal and the because of this decision and look at the stock holder perspective. If he sucks as a person does he suck at his job? if not then well so hes a terrible guy he sells books.

Poll update
4 choices 2 call for him to leave 2 for him to stay

the split

41.94% go
58.06% stay

as of my post the forum has spoken and whether you thought changes were need or not it is mostly agreed he should stay put

Special note of the stays alittle under half think he should make changes while the majority feel hes done fine.

[PamGrierOverdrive]

No matter what names would have been posted as those unwilling to work with Quesada, I could have bet money that everybody here would start bad mouthing them. Those guys helped to create and establish the status quo that led to these books lasting all these years in the first place. I'm not saying that Marvel is worse off because Gerber or Byrne aren't working for them today, but let's not be too hasty to profess our support for the Marvel Universe one minute, and then tear down the creators who've kept them on the map in decades past the next.

[DeadXMan]

Yeah i remember that, I benefited from that with Batman stories. Glad Morrison came over to the Bat. Again i dont see how that negates what he has done in the sales category.

Sure Marvel is making money in the Movie/Dvd market now and thats its major funder but, sales in comics are up over the competition and hes at the helm. How does writers or artist leaving negate those accomplishments?

it dosen't

Bryane left cause they canceled the hinnden years( along with many x-titles do to the 0post bankrupcy bugets.)
And under Joe how many writers have came back after swearing off marvel?


wasn't Gerber on good terms with Marvel again?

[PamGrierOverdrive]

And under Joe how many writers have came back after swearing off marvel?


I don't know. How many?

[DeadXMan]

more then those that swore off writing for marvel while he in charge

[PamGrierOverdrive]

Names, please.

[hmnut73]

Joe Q insults fans. I don't need any other reason to think he should be fired.

[DeadXMan]

I'm not insulted there for your logic is flawed

[ShaggyB]

No matter what names would have been posted as those unwilling to work with Quesada, I could have bet money that everybody here would start bad mouthing them. Those guys helped to create and establish the status quo that led to these books lasting all these years in the first place. I'm not saying that Marvel is worse off because Gerber or Byrne aren't working for them today, but let's not be too hasty to profess our support for the Marvel Universe one minute, and then tear down the creators who've kept them on the map in decades past the next.

Not my intent at all, Morrison and Miller are pretty much untouchable in there contributions to the comic industry as a whole, my point was for everyone that left someone has had to step up. new talents have been found and growth has a occurred.

Just because Grant Morrison wont write for Marvel while Joe is its head does not mean that Joe hasnt increased sales or done "a Bad Job".

[psm]

No matter what names would have been posted as those unwilling to work with Quesada, I could have bet money that everybody here would start bad mouthing them. Those guys helped to create and establish the status quo that led to these books lasting all these years in the first place. I'm not saying that Marvel is worse off because Gerber or Byrne aren't working for them today, but let's not be too hasty to profess our support for the Marvel Universe one minute, and then tear down the creators who've kept them on the map in decades past the next.

Gerber has worked for Marvel/Quesada before. He was the writer for the Howard the Duck series in 2001. As far as I know he has never had problems with Quesada. His disdain for Marvel comes from their policy on retaining rights for an artist's creations.

[Phil Hunn]

I'm not insulted there for your logic is flawed

Well, I have been, on several occasions - not just because of the insultingly stupid nature of OMD.

[PamGrierOverdrive]

I believe I read an interview with Gerber in Back Issue! Magazine about how he was displeased with the way his last Howard The Duck mini was handled by the powers-that-be. But at least Quesada's reign has brought us the likes of Chuck Austen, Ben Raab, Rob Zimmerman and Daniel Way.

[BizarroBeachHead]

But who will [write for Marvel]?

Hollywood screenwriters and Marvel interns.

*rimshot

[DeadXMan]

I believe I read an interview with Gerber in Back Issue! Magazine about how he was displeased with the way his last Howard The Duck mini was handled by the powers-that-be. But at least Quesada's reign has brought us the likes of Chuck Austen, Ben Raab, Rob Zimmerman and Daniel Way.

also Dan slott, mark miller, C&C, Gage,Bru and Bendis;)

[PamGrierOverdrive]

Brubaker is one commodity I'd like to see wander after his exclusive contract is up. Given his Daredevil and Iron Fist, I desperately want him to be writing Batman on a regular basis.

[Dr. K]

In short i dont see how your comments were rebuttals to what you wanted to rebut. please clarify if you are still on this board/thread.

Not sure you understand what I wanted to rebut. You'd need to go back to my original post and the reply to it. Those comments don't stand on their own. But the bulk of my point, perhaps not said as well as I could've, was that:

1 - I don't consider sales to be the criteria with which to judge Joe Q. This thread asks us if we think Joe Q should stay or go. I think he should go, despite the sales argument. I fully agree with the other posters who think that sales could've been even higher had books shipped on time, had there been less editorial influence, etc.

2 - Everything I write is informed by my opinion, which is based on a somewhat distant view of seeing how he has acted in public, what his public comments are, etc. I'd certainly characterize the way he's acted as arrogant.

3 - What I was rebutting was an accusation that my original comments were anecdotes and somehow "not the facts." Much of my original post is my opinion but I cited several hard facts in there - things like the fact that books aren't shipping on time, that editors aren't paying much attention to continuity, the fact that many fans and creators are pissed at Joe Q, etc.. These things are absolutely true and in no way anecdotal. But none of that was acknowledged in the post I was replying to, so I responded with line-by-line rebuttals, and the argument got derailed.

4 - I've no hard feelings towards Harlock or anyone else on this board (or even Joe Q). I just have no interest in getting bogged down in arguments that aren't going to go anywhere because one or both sides are basically talking over one another. This post itself is largely extraneous to the issue at hand, but, well, you asked me directly, so there you have it.

[Dr. K]

Poll update
4 choices 2 call for him to leave 2 for him to stay

the split

41.94% go
58.06% stay

as of my post the forum has spoken and whether you thought changes were need or not it is mostly agreed he should stay put

Special note of the stays alittle under half think he should make changes while the majority feel hes done fine.

That's one way of spinning those stats. Another way is to say that over 2/3s of respondents think change is needed at this point, whether he stays or goes, and less than 1/3 are content with the status quo.

But considering the sample size and selection, I don't think anyone can go off making any proclamations about it.

[xgeek52]

whether joe q. stays or goes -- marvel doesn't care what we think...

it's just that simple...

we are comic readers (translation consumers) we have no real say in what happens to him -- or what he decides -- except through our pocket books...and if i catch the tone of some, sales are good...

prior to the internet, they wouldn't have had an instant response to our feeling about a book or how the powers that be were going to handle it...i will admit though those responses, an intant respsonse fuel how they respond...

it's called the bottom line...

translation, if we don't do this to a character sales will slump...

some of you say they haven't...that should be you're answer...

being a writer, i've dealt with editors...in the comic world, if the editor says make it happen -- the writer and artist has to make it happen...

like i said our opinion don't mean jack...

i guess what i'm saying -- it don't matter if he stays or goes...i'm a comic book reader...he may go but i'll still be around...

[ShaggyB]

Not sure you understand what I wanted to rebut. You'd need to go back to my original post and the reply to it. Those comments don't stand on their own. But the bulk of my point, perhaps not said as well as I could've, was that:

1 - I don't consider sales to be the criteria with which to judge Joe Q. This thread asks us if we think Joe Q should stay or go. I think he should go, despite the sales argument. I fully agree with the other posters who think that sales could've been even higher had books shipped on time, had there been less editorial influence, etc.

2 - Everything I write is informed by my opinion, which is based on a somewhat distant view of seeing how he has acted in public, what his public comments are, etc. I'd certainly characterize the way he's acted as arrogant.

3 - What I was rebutting was an accusation that my original comments were anecdotes and somehow "not the facts." Much of my original post is my opinion but I cited several hard facts in there - things like the fact that books aren't shipping on time, that editors aren't paying much attention to continuity, the fact that many fans and creators are pissed at Joe Q, etc.. These things are absolutely true and in no way anecdotal. But none of that was acknowledged in the post I was replying to, so I responded with line-by-line rebuttals, and the argument got derailed.

4 - I've no hard feelings towards Harlock or anyone else on this board (or even Joe Q). I just have no interest in getting bogged down in arguments that aren't going to go anywhere because one or both sides are basically talking over one another. This post itself is largely extraneous to the issue at hand, but, well, you asked me directly, so there you have it.


Thank you, that does help with understanding how you were discussing your points. I think i understand you better now.

as to the spin thing. you could spin it as an overall change is needed, but again it depends on if you think change is the issue or if Joe Q is the issue.

Thanks again for the clarification on your earlier posts

[Madama Butterfly]

Quesada should leave ASAP and leave Spidey AND the X-Men alone.

[Monty_Cristo]

i'm loving new Spidey! but i dislike Quesada, so he can go.

[becominAfanAgain]

Well let me be honest, when they split MJ and Peter up the first time I stopped reading the book. I didn't buy any Spidey books for a while. I just enjoyed Logan and his animal ways until The Other arc came about which got me reading Spidey again. Coming to find out that MJ and Peter been back together for a minute. So I have to buy the back issues to see when they got back together. I guess I'm headed down that same road again. But only this time I had USM and ASG to feed my comic reading urges.

[Ben Morgan]

I don't have anything against him, so I don't see why he can't stay

[DeadXMan]

Brubaker is one commodity I'd like to see wander after his exclusive contract is up. Given his Daredevil and Iron Fist, I desperately want him to be writing Batman on a regular basis.

yeah DC really drop the ball on letting him go

[hmnut73]

I'm not insulted there for your logic is flawed

I used the word "fans" not the words "all fans" how is that flawed? Like if I said "Ford makes cars" would you say "I drive a Honda, so your logic is flawed."

I am happy you are happy but a lot of us are not.

[DeadXMan]

still flawed cause ford makes trucks as well

:p

when you use just fans you are generalizing.
that means you think Joe insults every marvel fan.

now if you perfected your stament to
"Joe insults most of the spidy fans"
then your stament would be true;)

[hmnut73]

still flawed cause ford makes trucks as well

:p

when you use just fans you are generalizing.
that means you think Joe insults every marvel fan.

now if you perfected your stament to
"Joe insults most of the spidy fans"
then your stament would be true;)

No when a person makes a general statement you take it as it generally means.

If I would have said "Joe Q insults most Spidy fans" you would have come back with "well that is flawed because some Spidy fans are also X-men fans." If I would have said "Joe Q insults most Marvel fans" you would have said "Well a lot of marvel fans are also DC fans so your logic is flawed."

It's hard trying to reason with the unreasonable.

The reason I say Joe Q insults fans and did not perfect my statment to say "Joe Q insults most Spider-Man fans" is that I don't feel Joe Q insults people in their compacity as Spider-Man fans. He does not say things that I find insulting as someone who likes Spider-Man, he says things insulting to people who like comic books, basically saying we are just dumb little kids and we will read anything as long as it is printed on paper with pretty pictures.

I have made my peace with the lost of the marriage, but Joe Q's crime is far greater than that, it is the creation of rules that even retcons (which are stupid) don't even have to make sense at all even by retcons standards.

What is stopping the next EIC from saying:
"I really think the best Spider-Man stories were when Spider-Man was in highschool. I know I'll have Peter need to save someone's life so he makes a deal with the devil but the devil says 'I want your education' and then I will just say 'everything that happened over the past 40 years still happened, just Peter never graduated highschool' and when people say that makes no sense I will say 'it's magic.' They are just stupid kids they'll buy anything."

I find it insulting, so do a lot fans. If you are okay with this new lower standard in comic books, well more power to you.

[darksaint124]

No when a person makes a general statement you take it as it generally means.

If I would have said "Joe Q insults most Spidy fans" you would have come back with "well that is flawed because some Spidy fans are also X-men fans." If I would have said "Joe Q insults most Marvel fans" you would have said "Well a lot of marvel fans are also DC fans so your logic is flawed."

It's hard trying to reason with the unreasonable.

The reason I say Joe Q insults fans and did not perfect my statment to say "Joe Q insults most Spider-Man fans" is that I don't feel Joe Q insults people in their compacity as Spider-Man fans. He does not say things that I find insulting as someone who likes Spider-Man, he says things insulting to people who like comic books, basically saying we are just dumb little kids and we will read anything as long as it is printed on paper with pretty pictures.

I have made my piece with the lost of the marriage, but Joe Q's crime is far greater than that, it is the creation of rules that even retcons (which are stupid) don't even have to make sense at all even by retcons standards.

What is stopping the next EIC from saying:
"I really think the best Spider-Man stories were when Spider-Man was in highschool. I know I'll have Peter need to save someone's life so he makes a deal with the devil but the devil says 'I want your education' and then I will just say 'everything that happened over the past 40 years still happened, just Peter never graduated highschool' and when people say that makes no sense I will say 'it's magic.' They are just stupid kids they'll buy anything."

I find it insulting, so do a lot fans. If you are okay with this new lower standard in comic books, well more power to you.

No more education, diploma, learning, brains, school, okay I need to stop. That was funny. LOL

[Mister Mets]

No when a person makes a general statement you take it as it generally means.

If I would have said "Joe Q insults most Spidy fans" you would have come back with "well that is flawed because some Spidy fans are also X-men fans." If I would have said "Joe Q insults most Marvel fans" you would have said "Well a lot of marvel fans are also DC fans so your logic is flawed."

It's hard trying to reason with the unreasonable.

The reason I say Joe Q insults fans and did not perfect my statment to say "Joe Q insults most Spider-Man fans" is that I don't feel Joe Q insults people in their compacity as Spider-Man fans. He does not say things that I find insulting as someone who likes Spider-Man, he says things insulting to people who like comic books, basically saying we are just dumb little kids and we will read anything as long as it is printed on paper with pretty pictures.

I have made my peace with the lost of the marriage, but Joe Q's crime is far greater than that, it is the creation of rules that even retcons (which are stupid) don't even have to make sense at all even by retcons standards.

What is stopping the next EIC from saying:
"I really think the best Spider-Man stories were when Spider-Man was in highschool. I know I'll have Peter need to save someone's life so he makes a deal with the devil but the devil says 'I want your education' and then I will just say 'everything that happened over the past 40 years still happened, just Peter never graduated highschool' and when people say that makes no sense I will say 'it's magic.' They are just stupid kids they'll buy anything."

I find it insulting,