Sunfire's Motivation - Please Help Me Understand...

[protogarrett]

It's the only thing I still can't figure out in MC. Why did Sunfire join Sinister? I can understand if it was for help after the whole Apocalypse thing, but Sunfire looks exactly the same. What did Sinister do for Shiro that would make Shiro so blindly devoted to him and fight the X-Men, who given were not exactly his buddies, but had been comrades on multiple occassions none the less.

Any ideas?

[Diablito]

Honestly, I've been wondering too. The excuse is that Apocalypse brought out the worst in Sunfire. :confused:

[Omega Alpha]

Sunfire is not blindly devoted to Sinister, and he never cared that much for the X-men. Add to that whatever happened to him didn't helped and there you have it.

[jarrod]

How much of explanation does "batshit insane" need? Just blame it on Poccy and move on until some brave writer wants to salvage Shiro.

[Monty_Cristo]

Shiro has no personality. i feel bad about saying that but he doesn't. i hope he gets fleshed out before he dies.

[DDM]

Shiro has no personality. i feel bad about saying that but he doesn't. i hope he gets fleshed out before he dies.

Sunfire has a definite personality, but it just got lost somewhere between writers...

[Monty_Cristo]

Sunfire has a definite personality, but it just got lost somewhere between writers...

short-tempered and proud isn't much of a personality, imo.

[DDM]

short-tempered and proud isn't much of a personality, imo.

It worked for Wolverine for years...

[Flameworthy]

It's the only thing I still can't figure out in MC. Why did Sunfire join Sinister? I can understand if it was for help after the whole Apocalypse thing, but Sunfire looks exactly the same. What did Sinister do for Shiro that would make Shiro so blindly devoted to him and fight the X-Men, who given were not exactly his buddies, but had been comrades on multiple occassions none the less.

Any ideas?

I'm actually stumped on that one too. I don't even know how Sunfire knew about Sinister. He had no interaction or knowledge with him before becoming a Marauder. I'm gonna just have to chalk it up to bad writing. While I liked how Milligan handled Sunfire for the most part, they way he left Sunfire in the last issue of BoA was just handled very rushed and half assed.

Shiro has no personality. i feel bad about saying that but he doesn't. i hope he gets fleshed out before he dies.

Actually he does. I think that people only base what they know of Sunfire on his appearances in X-Men books, when in fact he's appeared in a lot of different titles since he's been created. Through that time he has developed his own personality and character, but it's often forgotten when other writers use him as the token Japanese guy or as a plot device.

[Monty_Cristo]

It worked for Wolverine for years...

and that's why Sunfire was booted out of the book. plus Wolverine has a mysterious background and qualities that make him appeal more to american youth.

[Flameworthy]

and that's why Sunfire was booted out of the book. plus Wolverine has a mysterious background and qualities that make him appeal more to american youth.

At the time that may have been true, but he has grown considerably since then. Trust me, I practically have every issue he's appeared in.

[Monty_Cristo]

At the time that may have been true, but he has grown considerably since then. Trust me, I practically have every issue he's appeared in.

get in line. i have every issue Shortpack appeared in and no one believes me.

[RickyD410]

get in line. i have every issue Shortpack appeared in and no one believes me.

I just want you to know, I also LOVE Shortpack. And I want him back. I mean, even though its been so long since we've seen him, we can just say its because he's so small. Nobody noticed him! :( But I do want him back.

And I also wondered about Sunfire. But I think we can say its a combination of the fact that Apocalypse DID alter his mind, and also, did the X-Men help him? No. Did they even look for him? No. But Sinister found him, and Sinister helped him. Well, if you were a mind altered Shiro, who would you side with? And on top of that, Sinister told his Marauders that he had inside knowledge that would help the mutant race.

[streator]

did sunfire blame rogue for losing his legs? i can't remember for sure, but that's a possible motivation to work against her/the x-men.

i'd just attribute his loyalty to apocalypse's doing.

[Monty_Cristo]

I just want you to know, I also LOVE Shortpack. And I want him back. I mean, even though its been so long since we've seen him, we can just say its because he's so small. Nobody noticed him! :( But I do want him back.

And I also wondered about Sunfire. But I think we can say its a combination of the fact that Apocalypse DID alter his mind, and also, did the X-Men help him? No. Did they even look for him? No. But Sinister found him, and Sinister helped him. Well, if you were a mind altered Shiro, who would you side with? And on top of that, Sinister told his Marauders that he had inside knowledge that would help the mutant race.

fair enough. maybe Sunfire's just a natural poker player and i haven't picked up on his insides. if it counts, i did like him in Alpha Flight and was hoping that Big Hero 6 would turn into something. he didn't have a bad showing against Moses Magnum either. there were just periods of the 90s where i didn't understand where they were taking the character (pony tail days).

did sunfire blame rogue for losing his legs? i can't remember for sure, but that's a possible motivation to work against her/the x-men.

i'd just attribute his loyalty to apocalypse's doing.

wait, that really happened? i thought i dreamt all of that Daap, goofy-Apocalypse, talking monkey as horseman stuff.

[Lobsterdom]

This problem has been bugging me too.
I did think up of a theory that back in BoA, due to Emma's mind probing, Shiro's original mind had been salvaged, but the personality that Apocalypse created in him had not simply disappeared but had separated as an individual mind.
With the confusion of two different minds co-existing in himself right after "a tremendous inner struggle"(statement by Emma... and don't forget the fact that he's been mind-wracked by Rogue a couple of times), while resurfacing for a brief period, Shiro's weak original mind soon succumbed to the other utter evil personality.
This can explain the sudden awkward personality change between the scene where Shiro comes to his senses and saves Emma from War, and the sequence with him taking off with Gambit, preach him gibberish, and joining Sinister.
Also, with this theory, a writer can decide to make him snap back to his good old self anytime.
But looking at what's been done to him these past few years, it doesn't seem likely that any writer will come up and do something decent with Sunfire...... orz

That little story Steve Grant did in XM Unlimited was quite interesting though.

[DeadXMan]

from what I gather is that both Gambit and sunfire are indebted to sinister fr removing the fart power and hunger lights.

and anyone who read his unlimited story knows he always pay his debts

[Ivy Ashmore]

and anyone who read his unlimited story knows he always pay his debts

So in this circumstance Sinister is just playing tax collector?

I do not know, Sunfire just seems consistently bipolar, with few other constants in his life. Hero or villain? I'm not entirely sure, but I think it would make for a story if a writer choose to tell it.

[protogarrett]

A link to a history of Sunfire (http://uncannyxmen.net/db/spotlight/showquestion.asp?faq=10&fldAuto=102). After reading it, I still do not get the whole Sinister thing. =P

[Toadman005]

Maybe Sunfire is playing both sides as well?

[Ivy Ashmore]

Maybe Sunfire is playing both sides as well?

Yeah, you're probably right-he's bisexual.

[Magneto X]

short-tempered and proud isn't much of a personality, imo.

Works for Namor.


Sunfire is Buddhist. And after his legs were cut off (goodbye pride) and Apocalypse's mind messing, Sunfire came to embrace the Buddhist principle of "detachment". Being detached from the X-Men (more than he was already) and his former principles, so he's become a mercenary.

"Grasping at things can only yield one of two results:
Either the thing you are grasping at disappears,
or you yourself disappear.
It is only a matter of which occurs first."

- Goenka -

[Flameworthy]

And I also wondered about Sunfire. But I think we can say its a combination of the fact that Apocalypse DID alter his mind, and also, did the X-Men help him? No. Did they even look for him? No. But Sinister found him, and Sinister helped him. Well, if you were a mind altered Shiro, who would you side with? And on top of that, Sinister told his Marauders that he had inside knowledge that would help the mutant race.

I thought Sunfire was the one who sought out Sinister. Maybe I misread the story, but it's been a while.

did sunfire blame rogue for losing his legs? i can't remember for sure, but that's a possible motivation to work against her/the x-men.


No not to my knowledge. I don't see why he would anyways, it wasn't her fault it was Deathstrike's.

fair enough. maybe Sunfire's just a natural poker player and i haven't picked up on his insides. if it counts, i did like him in Alpha Flight and was hoping that Big Hero 6 would turn into something. he didn't have a bad showing against Moses Magnum either. there were just periods of the 90s where i didn't understand where they were taking the character (pony tail days).

Funny, I actually loved Sunfire in the 90's. Even with the crazy pony tail and all.

from what I gather is that both Gambit and sunfire are indebted to sinister fr removing the fart power and hunger lights.

and anyone who read his unlimited story knows he always pay his debts

Eh, why would Sinister remove his famine power. If anything he'd let him keep because it would make him a bigger asset.

Oh, and I love that story! It's one of my favorites and kind of sad too.

Works for Namor.


Sunfire is Buddhist. And after his legs were cut off (goodbye pride) and Apocalypse's mind messing, Sunfire came to embrace the Buddhist principle of "detachment". Being detached from the X-Men (more than he was already) and his former principles, so he's become a mercenary.

"Grasping at things can only yield one of two results:
Either the thing you are grasping at disappears,
or you yourself disappear.
It is only a matter of which occurs first."

- Goenka -



I don't think it has anything to do with that at all. If anything he's siding with Sinister because he's not in his right mind. If Sunfire were really himself, one of the last things he would do is join Sinister and become one of his lackeys. Sunfire has always hated being used and controlled, so for him to join Sinister would be completely OOC if he wasn't right in the head or undercover (which we already know he's not).

[Toadman005]

Yeah, you're probably right-he's bisexual.

Pfft, he's a total flamer..... (lame joke, I know)

[Flameworthy]

Pfft, he's a total flamer..... (lame joke, I know)

The only flamer here is me and my gay love for Sunfire. Unfortunately, the feelings aren't mutual.:p

[Monty_Cristo]

Works for Namor.

does it? i've never bought an issue of either of his titles.


Sunfire is Buddhist. And after his legs were cut off (goodbye pride) and Apocalypse's mind messing, Sunfire came to embrace the Buddhist principle of "detachment". Being detached from the X-Men (more than he was already) and his former principles, so he's become a mercenary.

detached is a great way of describing someone with no discernable personality, no?

[SunfireX]

I think its obvious that I love Shiro and just keep hoping he's undercover and will turn back but for now it just seems like I have to deal with him being a villian and hope someone will redeem him.

[Flameworthy]

detached is a great way of describing someone with no discernable personality, no?

Every time you say this it makes me dislike Shortpack more and more.:mad:

I think its obvious that I love Shiro and just keep hoping he's undercover and will turn back but for now it just seems like I have to deal with him being a villian and hope someone will redeem him.

I love your optimism! Sadly, Carey has stated he's not. Sunfire and his fans always get the short end of the stick.:(

[Monty_Cristo]

Every time you say this it makes me dislike Shortpack more and more.:mad:


fairweather fan!

[Flameworthy]

fairweather fan!

lol I wouldn't exactly call myself a fan. I know little to nothing about his character, and I've never read anything with him in it. Alas, he's probably in limbo for eternity so them's the breaks.

[Sanctus]

Shiro needs to have a good solo story set in Madripoor with Monet and Surge as the support staff. I don't know what the plot would be, but espionage and a major revamping of the character is in order. Maybe he can be teh White King to Sunspot's Lord Imperial.

[Monty_Cristo]

lol I wouldn't exactly call myself a fan. I know little to nothing about his character, and I've never read anything with him in it.

and that's why you're not a fan. Shortpack is Michael J. Fox in his prime mixed with Pikachu mixed with James Bond with a little Rambo thrown in. Professor Xavier wasn't just teaching mutants how to live peacefully among humans. he was also training covert operatives for the behind-the-scenes stuff. Shortpack was his go-to fieldhandler; the guy trusted to keep Mystique in line.

http://image.comicvine.com/uploads/item/5000/4280/172922-shortpack_400.jpg

http://image.comicvine.com/uploads/item/5000/4280/30555-shortpack_400.jpg

http://image.comicvine.com/uploads/item/5000/4280/20208-shortpack_400.jpg


Shiro needs to have a good solo story set in Madripoor with Monet and Surge as the support staff. I don't know what the plot would be, but espionage and a major revamping of the character is in order. Maybe he can be teh White King to Sunspot's Lord Imperial.

Hellfire Club would be a great place for Shiro. the are a morally gray group that works best when not comprised of all villains. his temperament, powers, and upbringing make him the perfect choice for lord cardinal.

[Flameworthy]

and that's why you're not a fan. Shortpack is Michael J. Fox in his prime mixed with Pikachu mixed with James Bond with a little Rambo thrown in. Professor Xavier wasn't just teaching mutants how to live peacefully among humans. he was also training covert operatives for the behind-the-scenes stuff. Shortpack was his go-to fieldhandler; the guy trusted to keep Mystique in line.

http://image.comicvine.com/uploads/item/5000/4280/172922-shortpack_400.jpg

http://image.comicvine.com/uploads/item/5000/4280/30555-shortpack_400.jpg

http://image.comicvine.com/uploads/item/5000/4280/20208-shortpack_400.jpg



That's cool, but honestly his character doesn't really seem like he would appeal to me. It seems like with his size it would be really hard to integrate him into a book.


Hellfire Club would be a great place for Shiro. the are a morally gray group that works best when not comprised of all villains. his temperament, powers, and upbringing make him the perfect choice for lord cardinal.

Never! Sunfire's place is with the X-Men or maybe his own solo.

[Monty_Cristo]

That's cool, but honestly his character doesn't really seem like he would appeal to me. It seems like with his size it would be really hard to integrate him into a book.


no harder than incorporating an old bald guy in a wheel-chair or a floating brain, imo. ;)

Never! Sunfire's place is with the X-Men or maybe his own solo.

he's boring with the x-men, imo. he should join the Defenders.

[Flameworthy]

no harder than incorporating an old bald guy in a wheel-chair or a floating brain, imo. ;)

lol No I suppose not.

he's boring with the x-men, imo. he should join the Defenders.

He's never really spent all that much time with them though. He usually guest stars and then goes on his merry way. He just needs to be on a team with characters who complement his personality. He's worked well with Rogue, Iceman, and Cannonball in the past.

[Monty_Cristo]

lol No I suppose not.



He's never really spent all that much time with them though. He usually guest stars and then goes on his merry way. He just needs to be on a team with characters who complement his personality. He's worked well with Rogue, Iceman, and Cannonball in the past.

the Hellfire Club would complement his personality (imo). just imagine him as the white king; butting heads with Shaw or Mandarin.

http://image.comicvine.com/uploads/item/4000/3175/159506-sunfire_400.jpg

[Flameworthy]

the Hellfire Club would complement his personality (imo). just imagine him as the white king; butting heads with Shaw or Mandarin.

That's just it though, even if he was a member how often would the Hellfire Club be used and featured. Once a year? Maybe every few years? I want Sunfire somewhere where he'll be featured on a monthly basis, in an ongoing book. I'm doubtful there would ever be a book solely dedicated to the Hellfire Club.

[Monty_Cristo]

That's just it though, even if he was a member how often would the Hellfire Club be used and featured. Once a year? Maybe every few years? I want Sunfire somewhere where he'll be featured on a monthly basis, in an ongoing book. I'm doubtful there would ever be a book solely dedicated to the Hellfire Club.

Sebastian is about to appear monthly

[Flameworthy]

Sebastian is about to appear monthly

Isn't that in X-Men Legacy though? As far as I know Carey doesn't have much affection for Shiro's character. I would have loved to have see him use him on Rogue's team.:(

[SunfireX]

Shiro has never really been allowed to grow on a team and I do think he could fit great in an X-Team. His role in AoA as the proud man who feels like he failed made me love him and think he could fill that role as arrogant exterior with an interior that is conflicted and learning to work as a team player. I think Shiro really could become a great X-Man with a writer who was willing to work with him (His visual and powerset are awesome already but if they mastered his personality I think he could be a fan favorite).

[Flameworthy]

Shiro has never really been allowed to grow on a team and I do think he could fit great in an X-Team. His role in AoA as the proud man who feels like he failed made me love him and think he could fill that role as arrogant exterior with an interior that is conflicted and learning to work as a team player. I think Shiro really could become a great X-Man with a writer who was willing to work with him (His visual and powerset are awesome already but if they mastered his personality I think he could be a fan favorite).

Exactly! The same deal with 616 Shiro, except he's just trying to make up for the awful things his Uncle made him do. He often comes of as snooty and arrogant but really he just uses that as a defense, from being a hurt and used again like when he was younger. He really is a good person at heart, even if he doesn't often come off that way. I still really wish a writer could take him under his wing, and not use him as a plot device to make another character look better. Oh, and I really want them to give him a make over too. The Japanese Human Torch look just doesn't cut it. He needs a look that's unique to him, and that can make him stand out without being cheesy.