Tired of the generic fantasy series

[Shellhead]

In the beginning, there was The Lord of the Rings. And it was good. Tolkien may not have written compelling characters with actual personalities, but he was a little busy creating an entire world, history, language, culture, species, and all.

In modern times, we have the astoundingly good Game of Thrones series, by George R.R. Martin. He has also created a world of great depth, and given us a much more interesting cast of characters, so many with their own viewpoints and agendas. Amazing work, and hopefully he will live long enough to finish it, and we will all live long enough to read it.

In between these two works, chronologically speaking, there has been a large load of generic fantasy works. I used to avoid the crap, and focus on the good stuff, by Fritz Lieber, Michael Moorcock, Roger Zelazny, and a few others.

But in recent years, I have been looking for different things to read, so I have sampled some very mediocre, generic fantasy. The Waste of Time series lost me in the first 200 pages of juvenile nitwit behavior. I toughed it out and sort of enjoyed the part near the end with the cool nazgul ripoffs, but not enough to bother with the rest of the series.

Now I'm reading The Lord of the Isles, by David Drake, and it's very disappointing so far. I've never been a huge fan of Drake, but I have enjoyed some of his work. He writes war well, except when he massively overdid it in the Nantucket series. Sometimes he has really unusual and interesting ideas, like that Winter World series. But Lord of the Isles is just plodding along, lifeless and generic. A friend has now advised me that it doesn't get any better, either, just repeats and repeats the same tired cliches.

And just what are those cliches? Good versus evil, young protagonists out to seek their fortune in the big bad world, magic, a fallen empire, the wise old man/woman, and so on.

Lieber's Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser were different, they were amoral rogues and best friends, bold, clever, and reckless. Zelazny's characters tend to be immortal or at least very long-lived, experienced, cynical, and very intelligent. Moorcock's Elric was like the anti-Conan in concept, a decadent, sickly sorceror-king who gave up his throne for life as a wandering scholar and adventurer.

Most of the rest of fantasy features the same naive juvenile adventurers, clueless, callow, making the same mistakes in every story. Then they discover their secret powers/magical affinity/royal blood/mystic artifacts/whatever, and against all odds, overcome vast evil opposition. And save the day. Ho hum.

[Inkthinker]

I liked Glen Cook's "Garrett, P.I." series, which took a lot of generic fantasy icons and turned 'em upside down, gave 'em a swirly, stole their lunch money and kicked 'em out with a wedgie into a Chandleresque noir detecitve style of storytelling.

They're not that easy to find, though... the most recent one, Angry Lead Skies, was terrible, too... so I don't think they're going to get any more prevalent on the bookstore shelves. BUt if you can find the earlier volumes, such as Cold Copper Tears, Red Iron Nights or Petty Pewter Gods (yeah, there's a naming theme) you might dig 'em as something different.

I'm a HUGE fan of Terry Pratchett, as well, and his Discworld stuff is famous for taking the conventions of fantasy and giving 'em a good swift kick in the nuts. The early stuff is more recognizably parodying fantasy, whereas the later books stand on their own as just plain good fantasy with a satirical, ironic twist.

Either series definitely breaks out of the rut you're speaking of.

[Shellhead]

Thanks for the ideas. I've tried both Cook and Pratchett's stuff before, but it sounds like they deserve another look. I read the early Discworld books, but when I heard that they got more serious, I stopped reading them. I really enjoyed Cook's Black Company series, for the most part, but I only read a couple of the Garrett, P.I. series, and since I was somewhat lost, they must have been later books in that series. One of the ones that I read was Angry Lead Skies.

[Roquefort Raider]

It would be nice if fantasy writers, if they just can't come up with something original, decided to ape someone else than Tolkien just for the sake of change.

I think it was Steven Brust who wrote something called "The phoenix guards" a little more than a decade ago; that was a pastiche of Alexandre Dumas' three musketeers (but set in a fantasy world). It was quite refreshing after so many rehashes of Humble little guy defeats Dark Lord with Magical Artifact/Unsuspected Inner Power.


Cheers,

- Ben

[The Mirrorball Man]

Have you tried China Mieville's Perdido Street Station? It's far from perfect, but it's as far from generic fantasy as it gets.

[Shellhead]

Have you tried China Mieville's Perdido Street Station? It's far from perfect, but it's as far from generic fantasy as it gets.

Oh, yeah, that was decent. I liked the sequel even more, what was that called, The Scar?

[Scott Beeler]

Much, probably most, of the fantasy I read is outside of the usual medieval Tolkien-inspired stuff. Some of my favorites include:

Mieville, _Perdido Street Station_, mentioned upthread (_The Scar_ is about as good, too, though I haven't read his others).

William Browning Spencer, _Zod Wallop_ (children's story author, in grief after his daughter's death, starts seeing his creations come alive), also _Resume With Monsters_ (temp-job hell becomes so literally thanks to Lovecraftian entities).

Barry Hughart, _Bridge of Birds_ (Chinese-based fantasy -- also see sequels _Eight Skilled Gentlemen_, _The Story of the Stone_).

Sean Stewart, _Mockingbird_ (mild-mannered Texas accountant unwillingly inherits her mother's private collection of voodoo gods), also _Resurrection Man_.

Tim Powers, _Last Call_ (Las Vegas, Bugsy Siegal, chaos theory, tarot, the Fisher King... quite a blend...), also _The Anubis Gates_ (time-travel, Egyptian magicians, werewolves, an evil clown...), and I've heard great things about _Declare_ as well.

Steven Brust, _Agyar_ (modern fantasy/horror).

I also love the short fantasy fiction of Kelly Link (_Stranger Things Happen_) and Avram Davidson (_The Avram Davidson Treasury_ gives a great "best-of" overview).

I love Susanna Clarke's short fiction, so I'm really looking forward to reading the just-released _Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell_, fantasy by way of Jane Austen.

That's a good list of non-usual fantasy favorites of mine.

[Hoss]

I love Susanna Clarke's short fiction, so I'm really looking forward to reading the just-released _Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell_, fantasy by way of Jane Austen.


I'm about 75 pages into this book. So far, so good. And you're right, so far it seems to be more about British society than it is about magic.

[Shem the Penman]

Have you tried Mervyn Peake's Gormenghast books?

And if you like Glen Cook's Black Company stuff, you might want to give Steven Erikson's Gardens of the Moon a spin.

[Shellhead]

Shem,

I read the first book of the Gormenghast trilogy. When I realized that I despised all of the characters, I just couldn't move on to the second book.

[Ilash]

What? Discworld gets less funny? I read Equal Rites and, honestly, I didn't think it was all that funny. I'm not sure if his other early books are funnier but I was very dissapointed. Maybe I've just been spoiled by Douglas Adams and Robert Rankin but I was expecting more. It's not even like it had a good plot or characters - I just don't get the big deal. You want a great comic-fantasist read Robert Rankin although the title "teller of TALL tales" seems more appropriate.

Oh, yeah I do want to also mention that I love a Game of Thrones. I haven't read the other books yet but Game of Thrones was one hell of a start!

[Expletive Deleted]

What? Discworld gets less funny? I read Equal Rites and, honestly, I didn't think it was all that funny. I'm not sure if his other early books are funnier but I was very dissapointed.EQUAL RITES . . . honestly, I tend to pretend that one never happened.

In terms of early Discworld, GUARDS! GUARDS! and MORT are a bit more representative.I read the early Discworld books, but when I heard that they got more serious, I stopped reading them.His jokes become less prominent as the series progresses, but his satire improves by leaps and bounds.I love Susanna Clarke's short fiction, so I'm really looking forward to reading the just-released _Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell_, fantasy by way of Jane Austen.I really need to get this one. If I hadn't already blown my budget buying SYSTEM OF THE WORLD, I'd have picked it up this afternoon.

[The Adventurer]

Yeah Discworld stopped being Fantasy Parody a long time ago. Now it's good story telling warped in excelent Satire. It takes an original and clever Fantasy world and uses it as a lense to see our world. Terry Pratchett is a GOD writer. Read Guards! Guards! or Mort first, skip The Color of Magic, The Light Fantastic, and Equal Rites, you can because you don't have to read Discworld books in order, cause they're all self contained but with sometimes recuring characters.

New book coming out at the begining of next week Going Postal it's a self contained book about the start of the Disc's first real Postal system. Antics will probibly ensue.

Here's the Amazon.com story synopis.
Arch-swindler Moist Van Lipwig never believed his confidence crimes were hanging offenses -- until he found himself with a noose tightly around his neck, dropping through a trapdoor, and falling into ... a government job?
By all rights, Moist should have met his maker. Instead, it's Lord Vetinari, supreme ruler of Ankh-Morpork, who promptly offers him a job as Postmaster. Since his only other option is a nonliving one, Moist accepts the position -- and the hulking golem watchdog who comes along with it, just in case Moist was considering abandoning his responsibilities prematurely.

Getting the moribund Postal Service up and running again, however, may be a near-impossible task, what with literally mountains of decades-old undelivered mail clogging every nook and cranny of the broken-down post office building; and with only a few creaky old postmen and one rather unstable, pin-obsessed youth available to deliver it. Worse still, Moist could swear the mail is talking to him. Worst of all, it means taking on the gargantuan, money-hungry Grand Trunk clacks communication monopoly and its bloodthirsty piratical head, Mr. Reacher Gilt.

But it says on the building neither rain nor snow nor glo m of ni t ... Inspiring words (admittedly, some of the bronze letters have been stolen), and for once in his wretched life Moist is going to fight. And if the bold and impossible are what's called for, he'll do it -- in order to move the mail, continue breathing, get the girl, and specially deliver that invaluable commodity that every human being (not to mention troll, dwarf, and, yes, even golem) requires: hope.


It's going to rule.

[The Adventurer]

For a slightly more serious but still unique take on the Fantasy Genre I need to recomend Harry Turtledove's World at War series. The first bookInto the Darkness (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0812574729/qid=1095812634/sr=ka-1/ref=pd_ka_1/102-1023199-7168954) is where you want to start. What it is, is a Fantasy world used as an Anolog to World War 2. It's a Fantasy World War 2 and is quite excelent.

[Expletive Deleted]

Next week?

Crap.

Ah, well. It's not as if I actually need to eat.

[Inkthinker]

New Pratchett NEXT WEEK!?!!

(gleegasm!)

I just found out there's a new Dresden book, too! GLEE!!

[Doodle Bob]

Shellhead,

I'll admit to being confused here. You complain about the sorry, generic state of fantasy, but whenever anyone points out non-generic examples, you say that you've already read them. So... what are you complaining about?

Sure, there's a heckuva lot of generic stuff out there: just stay away from it. It's a pretty sure bet that, if a series has more than 4 books to it and it's not done yet, it'll be a fairly generic series. (There are of course exceptions to this rule)

There' s plenty of stuff out there for anyone worth doing the research. Tim Powers, Glen Cook (who seems unfortunately to have forgotten how to write well), China Mieville have been mentioned. But there's also Peter Beagle, Gene Wolfe, Ursula LeGuin, John Crowley, James Branch Cabell, Ramsey Campbell.

In fact, the best epic fantasy ever written isn't even an epic fantasy. It's Njal's Saga, an Icelandic saga set on paper about 800 years ago. And it's next to impossible to understand Tolkien without reading this.

[Rabid Trekkie]

Don't know if it is everyone's thing but I really enjoyed Lian Hearn's Across the Nightingale Floor. I haven't read the other two volumes but this one was very good. It is a little boring at first and the descriptions are sparse but as the story progresses everything gets a lot better.

[The Mirrorball Man]

In fact, the best epic fantasy ever written isn't even an epic fantasy. It's Njal's Saga, an Icelandic saga set on paper about 800 years ago. And it's next to impossible to understand Tolkien without reading this.
Really? I found it pretty easy to understand Tolkien without knowing anything about any Icelandic saga. And when I finally read The Story of Burnt Njal, it didn't really help me understanding anything more about Tolkien, except maybe his love for complex family trees. :)

Maybe you're thinking of Njorl's saga? :p

[The Adventurer]

Strange that the several Discworld fans were caught off guard about Going Postal's release date, I've known about it now sense at least April/May when the Jr. Disc novel, A Hat Full of Sky came out. There's always a new full novel in October and a New Jr. Discworld novel in April/May.

In fact I know next year's line up too.

In March we get a Science of Discworld 3: Darwin's Watch

In April/may we get a new Tiffiny Aching Jr. Disc novel called Wintersmith

In October is a new City Watch Novel called Thud (which, insidently is the name of the Discworld Board Game (www.thudgame.com), which is based around a chesslike Dwarfs Vs Trolls consept, so I expect Dwarf and Troll conflicts might be brought to a head in Thud the book)


PS: Are you sure you're not talking about BAILE WOLF. Cause I know that heavly inspired Tolken.

[The Mirrorball Man]

PS: Are you sure you're not talking about BAILE WOLF. Cause I know that heavly inspired Tolken.
You mean 'Beowulf', right?

[The Adventurer]

You mean 'Beowulf', right?


Yeah, that's what I meant.

I Speel Gode

[Shellhead]

Shellhead,

I'll admit to being confused here. You complain about the sorry, generic state of fantasy, but whenever anyone points out non-generic examples, you say that you've already read them. So... what are you complaining about?

Sure, there's a heckuva lot of generic stuff out there: just stay away from it. It's a pretty sure bet that, if a series has more than 4 books to it and it's not done yet, it'll be a fairly generic series. (There are of course exceptions to this rule)

There' s plenty of stuff out there for anyone worth doing the research. Tim Powers, Glen Cook (who seems unfortunately to have forgotten how to write well), China Mieville have been mentioned. But there's also Peter Beagle, Gene Wolfe, Ursula LeGuin, John Crowley, James Branch Cabell, Ramsey Campbell.

In fact, the best epic fantasy ever written isn't even an epic fantasy. It's Njal's Saga, an Icelandic saga set on paper about 800 years ago. And it's next to impossible to understand Tolkien without reading this.

Actually, this thread has been good info for me. Yeah, I have read at least half of the great suggestions here (didn't mention it before, but I love Bary Hughart's version of ancient China), but others are completely unfamiliar, so I can enjoy tracking those down and trying them.

Your remark about how to spot a generic fantasy series sounds very accurate: 4+ books and no end in sight does sound like somebody milking the genre for a steady paycheck. (Yes, I'm looking right at you, Robert Jordan.)

I will look into that Njal's Saga. It sounds like it will be even more challenging to read than Beowulf, but I am very curious now.

[The Mirrorball Man]

I will look into that Njal's Saga. It sounds like it will be even more challenging to read than Beowulf, but I am very curious now.
I wouldn't know if it's more challenging or not: I read Beowulf in the original Old English version, which was one of the most traumatizing experiences of my entire life, while I only read a translation of Njal's saga. It was a real walk in the park, that one, really... ;) If you wish to read it, though, be ready to take notes. A lot of notes.

You can find the complete text online for free here (http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/OMACL/Njal/).

[Doodle Bob]

I wouldn't know if it's more challenging or not: I read Beowulf in the original Old English version, which was one of the most traumatizing experiences of my entire life, while I only read a translation of Njal's saga. It was a real walk in the park, that one, really... ;) If you wish to read it, though, be ready to take notes. A lot of notes.

You can find the complete text online for free here (http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/OMACL/Njal/).

given the Njorl (er, Njal)'s Saga was written in Old Icelandic (a language only indirectly related to Modern English), I'd say that you should stick with the translation. The Penguin translation from the 60s is good since it footnotes most of the genealogy and has a fairly streamlined prose.

My comment about Tolkien is with regards to both prose and characters (and it applies to Beowulf as well, although I've heard that he was not overly impressed with Beowulf as a piece of literature). Tolkien was trying to write something that had the same prose feeling as the old Icelandic and Germanic sagas. Consequently, he didn't spend too much time getting into the minds of the characters. For the most part, he describes what they do and what they say, but lets the reader figure out what their inner workings are like.

Now, I'm not claiming that he was always successful at this, but he was trying to create that mythic feel that the old epics have. I think this is one reason why there are so many people who enjoyed Lord of the Rings but not too much other fantasy books, since this styling is the exact opposite of most current fantasy writers including Martin, who spend a great deal of time describing what the various characters are thinking and feeling -- and often not too much time on what they're doing.

By the way, you should be warned that Njal's Saga has no magic to it, just plenty of medieval style intrigue and bloodshed.

[berk]

The Icelandic Sagas are great reading, and Njal's Saga is generally considered one of the masterpieces of the genre, although, like Mirrorball Man, I'm not sure why it in particular (as opposed to the Sagas in general) would be considered an influence on Tolkien.

I'm sure Tolkien was influenced by the Sagas in general, along with Beowulf, other old English poems, the Kalevala, Wagner's Ring Cycle, and probably a lot of other stuff I've never heard of.

One of my favourite of the shorter sagas is Gunnlaug Worm-Tongue (also sometimes translated as Serpent-Tongue); but in the saga, the nick-name "Worm-Tongue" doesn't have the negative connotations it has in Tolkien; on the contrary, it's an epithet of praise for the hero's quick and ready wit, and his ability to compose poetry; Gunnlaug is also a great fighter and a brave man, if a little proud and unbending, and altogether an interesting character.

[Doodle Bob]

The Icelandic Sagas are great reading, and Njal's Saga is generally considered one of the masterpieces of the genre, although, like Mirrorball Man, I'm not sure why it in particular (as opposed to the Sagas in general) would be considered an influence on Tolkien.

I'm sure Tolkien was influenced by the Sagas in general, along with Beowulf, other old English poems, the Kalevala, Wagner's Ring Cycle, and probably a lot of other stuff I've never heard of.


My bad: i meant to imply that one should read at least one of the icelandic sagas to get a flavor of what Tolkien was shooting for. But there are two reasons why Njal is particularly important: 1. Frodo at least post-ring is clearly based on Njal and 2. there is a Christian undertone to Njal's Saga that I think he tried to imitate at times.

To my knowledge, by the way, he disliked Wagner and much more preferred the original medieval Nibelung cycle. In fact, during or prior to WWII, he expressed regret to a pro-nazi sympathizer that he had such a German last name given the anti-Semitism of the time.

[Inkthinker]

Strange that the several Discworld fans were caught off guard about Going Postal's release date, I've known about it now sense at least April/May when the Jr. Disc novel, A Hat Full of Sky came out. There's always a new full novel in October and a New Jr. Discworld novel in April/May.

In fact I know next year's line up too.

In March we get a Science of Discworld 3: Darwin's Watch

In April/may we get a new Tiffiny Aching Jr. Disc novel called Wintersmith

In October is a new City Watch Novel called Thud (which, insidently is the name of the Discworld Board Game (www.thudgame.com), which is based around a chesslike Dwarfs Vs Trolls consept, so I expect Dwarf and Troll conflicts might be brought to a head in Thud the book)


I knew about Going Postal, I just hadn't gotten around to learning the street date. I find that knowing when they're coming out just makes for a painful wait... for instance, now I have to wait a WHOLE WEEK (street date 10-01-04, according to Borders).

I didn't know there was another Aching book coming, but I heard he was planning to keep them up. Luckily for me, I think she's one of his best new characters in years, and I can always take another dose of Nee Mac Feegle (wha hae, ya scaggins! Here's a present from yon wee burdies!)

I do think it's vaguely amusing that Aching's Mac Feegle apparently speak slightly more coherent Scots Hooligan than the Lancre Mac Feegle of Carpe Jugulum, but even Terry's gotta make a concession when these guys start showing up all the time.

[Rob Allen]

All the talk of the sagas leads me to mention this:

I've recently read about a theory that major portions of the King Arthur stories may derive from the legends of Eurasian steppe nomads who spoke languages related to Iranian. The last direct descendants of these nomads are the Ossetians, who live in the Caucasus Mountains. Their story tradition includes tales of the heroic Narts, especially the greatest Nart warrior Batraz and his magic sword, which must be thrown into a body of water at his death. These stories would have come to western Europe with the Sarmatian mercenaries hired by the Romans and by the Alans (or Alani) who accompanied the German tribes when they settled in Gaul and Iberia. Apparently the Alan tribe is the source of my last name; that's what I was researching when I came across this.

Now I can't wait to find a translation of the Nart legends. If anybody finds one, let me know about it, OK?

[Michael?]

All the talk of the sagas leads me to mention this:

I've recently read about a theory that major portions of the King Arthur stories may derive from the legends of Eurasian steppe nomads who spoke languages related to Iranian. The last direct descendants of these nomads are the Ossetians, who live in the Caucasus Mountains. Their story tradition includes tales of the heroic Narts, especially the greatest Nart warrior Batraz and his magic sword, which must be thrown into a body of water at his death. These stories would have come to western Europe with the Sarmatian mercenaries hired by the Romans and by the Alans (or Alani) who accompanied the German tribes when they settled in Gaul and Iberia. Apparently the Alan tribe is the source of my last name; that's what I was researching when I came across this.

Now I can't wait to find a translation of the Nart legends. If anybody finds one, let me know about it, OK?

Pft. You made up, like, half of those words.




;) Nah, I kid. Sounds interesting, though.

As per Tolkien's fascination with Icelandic lore, I would recommend checking out his biography. (As I recall, there's only one "authorized" biography.) I _think_ I remember it simply coming down to the fact that he simply liked Icelandic. Like everything else in his life, it ultimately came down to the language. He liked the sound, structure, and feel of Icelandic, and identified with it more than other languages. Though, I could be completely wrong- it's been a while since I read that.

[Sadyv]

I'd recommend H.P. Lovecraft's story, Dream Quest of Unknown Kadath to you my friend. Lovecraft's hypnotic writing style only adds to the wonder and fantastic in this story.

[Shem the Penman]

I'd recommend H.P. Lovecraft's story, Dream Quest of Unknown Kadath to you my friend. Lovecraft's hypnotic writing style only adds to the wonder and fantastic in this story.

That also makes me think of Lord Dunsany, who's worth checking out. His short stories are the best -- "Idle Days on the Yann," "The Sword of Welleran," "The Distressing Tale of Thangobrind the Jeweller," "How Nuth Sold Rope to the Gnoles," and more, and The King of Elfland's Daughter is pretty good too.

[Solaris]

For something different, you might try the "Tarma and Kethry" books (most were short stories that have been put into book format) by Mercedes Lackey.

Some of the stories are definitely better than others... but Lackey has some things going for her with these two characters:

They're two adventuring women... mercenaries, to be precise.

They're strong characters, with at times differing outlooks (one's a mage, and one's a swordsworn fighter who comes from a very interesting nomadic culture)

They have a long-term relationship (sisterly, not lesbian, in case lesbian offends you, btw) that involves some interesting dynamics, including at times one battling the protectionism of the other

They often get into interesting situtations... and in some of the stories, Lackey sets out to make fun of some of the fantasy stereotypes, with greater or lesser success, depending.

All in all, they're great characters, and the book in particular that *wasn't* drawn from short stories is very good, with some strong issues in it for flavoring.

Books titles, in order: Oathbound; Oathbreaker; Oath's Blood (the last being sort of a clean-up book that caught the short stories missed by the first book---a lot of them were published in Marion Zimmer Bradley's "Swords and Sorceresses" anthologies---but there's a bonus new story, that takes place after all the other events, right at the end of that book---which is why I suggest reading it last. Otherwise, the story will contain spoilers for "Oathbreaker".

If you really like these, there's a sort of sequel involving one of their later family members, but written originally as sort of a stand-alone book, called "By the Sword." Again, it has a female protagonist.

I think you'll enjoy these---in many ways, they're quite a bit different than your average fantasy... or they make fun of said fantasy's overworn elements and characters! :)

[berk]

I was in a bookstore today and noticed something pertinent to our earlier discussion of Tolkien's influences: a book called The Tolkien Fan's Medieval Reader. I'm not sure how recent this is; maybe it's been out for a while. ANyway, I had a look at the contents, and it has Beowulf, some other Old English narrative poems, some excerpts from Chaucer (forget which ones), and from the Mabinogion, 'the Second Battle of Mag Turedh' (Moy Turra, Irish mythology), and a Finnish legend (probably an excerpt from the Kalavala). It also contains a short saga, one I've never read, called 'The Saga of King Heidrik' (I think). Interesting.

[Corrina]

Have you tried Lois McMaster Bujold's "Curse of Chalion" and "Paladin of Souls?"

Fantasy, though certainly not generic. The hero of the first is not your basic adventuring fantasy hero, and the heroine of the second is...grandma! :)

Also love her Vorkosigan series (Aral. :sigh:) but that's not fantasy.

[Deskad]

All the talk of the sagas leads me to mention this:

I've recently read about a theory that major portions of the King Arthur stories may derive from the legends of Eurasian steppe nomads who spoke languages related to Iranian. The last direct descendants of these nomads are the Ossetians, who live in the Caucasus Mountains. Their story tradition includes tales of the heroic Narts, especially the greatest Nart warrior Batraz and his magic sword, which must be thrown into a body of water at his death. These stories would have come to western Europe with the Sarmatian mercenaries hired by the Romans and by the Alans (or Alani) who accompanied the German tribes when they settled in Gaul and Iberia. Apparently the Alan tribe is the source of my last name; that's what I was researching when I came across this.

Now I can't wait to find a translation of the Nart legends. If anybody finds one, let me know about it, OK?


Yep, all of that is correct. A good book about that is "From Scythia to Camelot". I am an Ossetian by the way.

[Sandy Hausler]

In the beginning, there was The Lord of the Rings. And it was good. Tolkien may not have written compelling characters with actual personalities, but he was a little busy creating an entire world, history, language, culture, species, and all.

In modern times, we have the astoundingly good Game of Thrones series, by George R.R. Martin. He has also created a world of great depth, and given us a much more interesting cast of characters, so many with their own viewpoints and agendas. Amazing work, and hopefully he will live long enough to finish it, and we will all live long enough to read it.

In between these two works, chronologically speaking, there has been a large load of generic fantasy works. I used to avoid the crap, and focus on the good stuff, by Fritz Lieber, Michael Moorcock, Roger Zelazny, and a few others.

But in recent years, I have been looking for different things to read, so I have sampled some very mediocre, generic fantasy. The Waste of Time series lost me in the first 200 pages of juvenile nitwit behavior. I toughed it out and sort of enjoyed the part near the end with the cool nazgul ripoffs, but not enough to bother with the rest of the series.

Now I'm reading The Lord of the Isles, by David Drake, and it's very disappointing so far. I've never been a huge fan of Drake, but I have enjoyed some of his work. He writes war well, except when he massively overdid it in the Nantucket series. Sometimes he has really unusual and interesting ideas, like that Winter World series. But Lord of the Isles is just plodding along, lifeless and generic. A friend has now advised me that it doesn't get any better, either, just repeats and repeats the same tired cliches.

And just what are those cliches? Good versus evil, young protagonists out to seek their fortune in the big bad world, magic, a fallen empire, the wise old man/woman, and so on.

Lieber's Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser were different, they were amoral rogues and best friends, bold, clever, and reckless. Zelazny's characters tend to be immortal or at least very long-lived, experienced, cynical, and very intelligent. Moorcock's Elric was like the anti-Conan in concept, a decadent, sickly sorceror-king who gave up his throne for life as a wandering scholar and adventurer.

Most of the rest of fantasy features the same naive juvenile adventurers, clueless, callow, making the same mistakes in every story. Then they discover their secret powers/magical affinity/royal blood/mystic artifacts/whatever, and against all odds, overcome vast evil opposition. And save the day. Ho hum.

You might want to try Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell by Susanah Clark. It was quite good. Not much slam bang action, but a real thinking man's fantasy novel. And I say that as a thinking man.<g>

Sandy Hausler

[saintjon]

Prince of Nothing by R. Scott Bakker.

www.princeofnothing.com

I wont' lie and say he wasn't inspired by Tolkien (not to mention Frank Herbert) but he's definitely taking things in his own direction, there's a prologue at the link I typed. This guy is gonna be huge.

[Sir Tim Drake]

Maybe you should read some magical realist fiction... One Hundred Years of Solitude by Gabriel Garcia Marquez, Midnight's Children by Salman Rushdie, The Famished Road by Ben Okri. These have nothing to do with Tolkien, but they're sort of like fantasy, and they're good... :)

[Donald M.]

What? Discworld gets less funny? I read Equal Rites and, honestly, I didn't think it was all that funny. I'm not sure if his other early books are funnier but I was very dissapointed.


Well jeez, that's your problem right there, reading the absolute worst book in the series first. Pretty much any other book in the series would've been a better start, though obviously picking up one of the later books first might leave you feeling a bit lost.

Comparing to Douglas Adams is a bad idea as well. And hell, the Hitchhiker's Guide may be flat out funnier than Discworld, but Terry wins when it comes to consistency. Nearly thirty books and, with the exception of Equal Rites (and to be honest, not everyone's a fan of the later Rincewind-centric novels either) not a stinker in the bunch. The Hitchhiker's series was creaking under its own weight by book three and never did recover, and I never did care for the Dirk Gently books.

At any rate, I reccomend giving Guards! Guards!, Mort, Small Gods or Wyrd Sisters a shot. If you still feel the same way about the series well, at least you tried.

[The Mirrorball Man]

Maybe you should read some magical realist fiction... One Hundred Years of Solitude by Gabriel Garcia Marquez, Midnight's Children by Salman Rushdie, The Famished Road by Ben Okri. These have nothing to do with Tolkien, but they're sort of like fantasy, and they're good... :)
If you're going all highbrow on us, might as well mention Jorge Luis Borges. Some of his short stories belong to the fantasy genre, or have a heavy fantasy flavour. :)

[Jagatai_Khan]

Most of the rest of fantasy features the same naive juvenile adventurers, clueless, callow, making the same mistakes in every story. Then they discover their secret powers/magical affinity/royal blood/mystic artifacts/whatever, and against all odds, overcome vast evil opposition. And save the day. Ho hum.


Some non-Tolkien-clone fantasy books you can read, then:

The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever These were written by Stephen R. Donaldson. It's an original fantasy world, and the protagonist is about as non-heroic as you can get. (Actually, he's pretty much a bastard the whole way through the series. He ends up being a kind of "hero" more by necessity than choice. )

The Earthsea books by Ursula K Leguin. While there is sometimes a "Good vs Evil" theme, alot of the time it boils down more to Shortsightedness vs Farsightedness, and the main character trying to fix the result of bad choices that others have made.

The Sunrunner books, by Melanie Rawn. These are essentially stories of politics on an island kingdom. They're a little bit too much like romance novels, which is annoying, but they're another non-Tolkien fantasy setting. There aren't really any good guys or bad guys in this, just competing factions and lots of extremely arrogant and proud people with UberPowers.

[Sk8maven]

Re: Tolkien and the "Kalevala" - he most certainly did read that and was strongly influenced by it. It comes through loud and clear in "The Silmarillion", particularly the tale of Turin (the all-time biggest screwup in Middle-Earth history), whose character and adventures are drawn very directly from the antihero Kullervo. Black sword, sister-mate, double-crossings and all.

By the time he finished polishing up "The Lord of the Rings", the influences are not nearly so obvious, though there's more than a little of wise and crotchety old Vainamoinen in Gandalf.

Maven

[Sk8maven]

What? Discworld gets less funny?
Not exactly. It spends less time laughing AT its characters and situations and more time laughing WITH them. The characters spend less time being the butt of the author's jokes and start making jokes of their own. Often wry and sardonic ones.

The quality varies a good bit, and there are several different flavors: "Rincewind is the stupidest - but luckiest - wizard alive", "Don't mess with Granny Weatherwax", "The fall and rise of Sam Vimes", and assorted one-off parodies like "Moving Pictures" (the more you know about silent movies, the more hilarious you'll find it). Try several - there's bound to be one or more you'll like.

Maven

[Nate C.]

Midnight's Children[/i] by Salman Rushdie, and they're good... :)

Quite reccomending this book!! This is the second time I've seen you do it, and it will not stand, do you hear me? I know the only reason you are doing it is so that you can find some satisfaction with another lost soul wrapped up in Doctor Ahziz's nose and the infamous hole in the cloth.

There, are you happy????

[Paul McEnery]

Some (more) great modern English speaking magic realists:

Steve Erickson (not to be confused with Steven of that ilk): Our Ecstatic Days. His novels now turn out to be one big novel, but can be read in any order. Recurring characters and themes (our hero usually takes a wrong turn at the crossroads of reality).

Russell Hoban: Riddley Walker. An apocalyptic British future, seen through the eyes of a feral kid.

Most things by Jonathan Carroll (not to be confused with Jon of that ilk): The latest, whatever it's called. His series (both of them) tend to have recurring characters and themes (primarily, someone falls into magic; this is not necessarily a good thing... bum bum bum) but can be read in any order.

The recent series by Steve Aylett: Accomplice (start with the Velocity Gospel). Terry Pratchett turned up to eleven, and fed more drugs than even Grant Morrison could handle. Not so much novels as deranged stand up.

Also great fantasy:

Robert Holdstock: The new series does Arthur/Merlin; the previous series starts with Mythago Wood, where you've got a magic forest where dreams come to life. This is not necessarily a good thing... (bum bum bum!)