Countdown to Final Crisis: Bringing the stuff together

[Will.S]

Having read the Countdown books by themselves in a continuous order (like with 52 I stockpiled them for later reading) I've been trying to find the similar threads and make sense of such separate plots.

So looking at the various separate plots, I'm figuring that the have to have some sort of purpose and merge into something else. We know that the "Fifth World" is coming and that the concept of the JLA as the New Gods was abandoned but maaaaaybe not entirely.

Here's the teaser pic for Final Crisis depicting the heroes:

http://www.newsarama.com/dcnew/FinalCrisis/FinalCrisis_t.jpg

And here's the darker side of that complete with the Boom Tube effect in the back ground.

http://www.newsarama.com/dcnew/countdown/SecondTease/Badboys_t.jpg

Kyle Rayner, Dianna Troy, and Jason Todd:

Apparently Morrison wanted to use Superman, Wonder Woman, and Batman as headliners for the New Gods. Seeing as how that's not going to happen we still have a "Big Three" of sorts with Kyle, Dianna, and Jason.

Seeing as how they aren't A-list and aren't as vital to DC as the big three it's possible that Morrison will replace the big 3 with them to become the New Gods of the fifth world. Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, and Batman might just be Kyle, Dianna, and Jason. The only question is what about Superman and Hawkman? I see no reason why that Superman can't be from another earth dimension and Superman Prime has been getting a lot of attention lately although I don't think he would be a hero. However the other teaser shows him, Cyborg Superman, AND Kingdom Come Superman.

Mary Marvel:

Having given her powers to Eclipso, Jean Loring is also a candidate for another position among the fifth world New Gods now that she has become more powerful. Mary Marvel is still getting focus however so maybe we shouldn't count her out but both being next to Granny goodness in the 2nd teaser pic could be a clue about their future positions as probable New Gods.

Holly Robinson:

The second teaser shows Catwoman next to Joker and Martian Manhunter who has yet to make a big appearance in Countdown. This could be Holly back in her Catwoman costume put to use in the Countdown book proper but it's hard to nail down what her character will be. She might either retain the Catwoman identity or the connections to Granny Goodness might be an indicator of something with her in that direction.

Jimmy Olsen:

There's a lot of wacky stuff going for him. The reactive powers in particular make him out to be a very powerful character that Darkseid has kept a keen eye on. It's hard to say whether DC will do this but it seems to me that Jimmy might become the new Mr. Miracle considering his powers are reactive by nature and his interaction with him. Forager may or may not be his "Big Barda" of sorts.

Brother Eye:

Brother eye has gathered the OMACS and took a huge chunk of land mass with it to do something with it. This seems to be one of the tech aspects of the New Gods and could be a path to a world created by Brother Eye/OMAC technology to create a New Apokolips.

The Pied Piper & Trickser:

Obviously Trickster is dead but there seems to be something brewing with Pied Piper. Really hard to make a call here as I don't know what New Gods position he would fill if her were to become one but he might not even become one. Desaad is definitely playing with him for a good reason.

I have a few more theories but your thoughts so far?

[Froggy]

thoughts so far are

I REALLY lthink your Challengers of the unknown becoming those "New Gods" idea has a lot of premise but i'm unsure as to where it's going. Brother Eye could be creating a sort of Apookolips............

[Choppa]

I assume the crumbling Darkseid head refers to the death of the new gods?

I really want to know why Prime is takling to Henshaw. Is there a connection between Prime wearing the Death of Superman costume and Hank having come from that storyline?

[Will.S]

thoughts so far are

I REALLY lthink your Challengers of the unknown becoming those "New Gods" idea has a lot of premise but i'm unsure as to where it's going. Brother Eye could be creating a sort of Apookolips............
The only real problem about the OMAC's and Brother eye so far though would be the fact that its much lower tech than the technology of Apokolips. I think it's open to conversion though so it could just be acting as a base to reformat into New Apokolips tech.

I assume the crumbling Darkseid head refers to the death of the new gods?

I really want to know why Prime is takling to Henshaw. Is there a connection between Prime wearing the Death of Superman costume and Hank having come from that storyline?
Yeah the crumbling head definitely seems to be pointing towards the Death of the New Gods mini. I've picked up the latest issues of Salvation Run and it seems that the Catwoman, Martian Manhunter and Joker parts have a lot to do with that mini considering their appearances there.

Regarding Superman Prime and Cyborg Superman, that's a tough call. Prime has definitely made his mark in Countdown and the reason for his costume hasn't been explained on panel but perhaps they stand for death and resurrection considering it's use during Death of Superman. I have no idea about Cyborg Superman's relevance here other than the fact that in his appearances in Green Lantern, something picked up his mangled cyborg face.

There's an unseen hand there that had the power to return both Superman Prime and Cyborg Superman so soon after the Sinestro Corps War. I'm still waiting for Hank to make an appearance but he did have connections to the source wall at some point and it seemed that despite how really good both villains were in Green Lantern (Superman Prime in particular) they were still smaller players there whereas they get a bigger push in a Crisis style event.

I'm also wondering what's the deal with Kingdom Come Superman there, we see an atom style signature there so that's another interesting thing we haven't seen revealed but perhaps that Superman will have a purpose in Final Crisis outside of Geoff Johns plans for him in JSA.

[Choppa]

Regarding Superman Prime and Cyborg Superman, that's a tough call. Prime has definitely made his mark in Countdown and the reason for his costume hasn't been explained on panel but perhaps they stand for death and resurrection considering it's use during Death of Superman. I have no idea about Cyborg Superman's relevance here other than the fact that in his appearances in Green Lantern, something picked up his mangled cyborg face.

There's an unseen hand there that had the power to return both Superman Prime and Cyborg Superman so soon after the Sinestro Corps War. I'm still waiting for Hank to make an appearance but he did have connections to the source wall at some point and it seemed that despite how really good both villains were in Green Lantern (Superman Prime in particular) they were still smaller players there whereas they get a bigger push in a Crisis style event.


Now that I think abuot it, at the end of GL #25 there was something that rescued the Anti-monitor. Maybe they are one that sent the Manhunters to get Henshaw as well?

As for Prime's suit, the more I look at it, I don't know how much it resembles the original one.

[Froggy]

the tech MIGht be getting reformatted


but I think the big thing is the morticoccus virus

[octothorp]

the tech MIGht be getting reformatted


but I think the big thing is the morticoccus virus

Exactly my thoughts, Froggy. They've given more than enough clues, including a screen shot of Morticoccus, to lead us down that path. As a fan of the classic Kamandi comics, all I can say is, bring it on!

[Froggy]

Exactly my thoughts, Froggy. They've given more than enough clues, including a screen shot of Morticoccus, to lead us down that path. As a fan of the classic Kamandi comics, all I can say is, bring it on!

I so wanna see how Karate kid fits into all this kamandi stuff though. They've met each other like, ONCE I think

[Sijo]

I so wanna see how Karate kid fits into all this kamandi stuff though. They've met each other like, ONCE I think
Indeed they did, in an issue of the Kid's (short lived) own series back in the late seventies. KK tried to return to the future (his series was set in the present) but somehow ended up in Kamandi's future instead. Whether this means that the World After the Great Disaster was an alternate 30th Century, I'm not sure.

Anyway, regarding Final Crisis: as Steven Grant recently mentioned in his CBR column, in order for DC to live up to the buildup they have been doing since Infinity Crisis, FC needs to result in something never before done in DC's history. My guess is that it will be: a total revamp of the DC Universe.

I know what you're saying, "They have done like thrice already!" No, they haven't. They've been trying to, but invariably always mix new continuity with old one. What I'm thinking of is a total reboot of everything- after FC, ALL DC titles should start over with new #1 issues, all characters rebooted as new versions that are starting off right then -even Superman- with NO references to any pre-FC stories EVER AGAIN. Just like what they did with Wonder Woman after the first Crisis, but applied to ALL their characters. This is exactly what Wolfman wanted to do with the original Crisis but his wishes were superseded. Now, I'm not saying I favor this or even think it's necessary (except to regain all the characters we've lost in all the recent massacres); I'm simply saying it would be the only way to deliver on the premise of FC being the true, last Crisis.

Personally, the one big change I want is for all the killings to go away. Not occasional, well-handled deaths; just the constant "killing for cheap thrills" ones. Though I fear that won't happen until at least Didio (and likely several editors as well) leave their posts. Which isn't likely to happen unless FC turns out to be a big fiasco (which COULD happen...)

[Froggy]

Indeed they did, in an issue of the Kid's (short lived) own series back in the late seventies. KK tried to return to the future (his series was set in the present) but somehow ended up in Kamandi's future instead. Whether this means that the World After the Great Disaster was an alternate 30th Century, I'm not sure.

Anyway, regarding Final Crisis: as Steven Grant recently mentioned in his CBR column, in order for DC to live up to the buildup they have been doing since Infinity Crisis, FC needs to result in something never before done in DC's history. My guess is that it will be: a total revamp of the DC Universe.

I know what you're saying, "They have done like thrice already!" No, they haven't. They've been trying to, but invariably always mix new continuity with old one. What I'm thinking of is a total reboot of everything- after FC, ALL DC titles should start over with new #1 issues, all characters rebooted as new versions that are starting off right then -even Superman- with NO references to any pre-FC stories EVER AGAIN. Just like what they did with Wonder Woman after the first Crisis, but applied to ALL their characters. This is exactly what Wolfman wanted to do with the original Crisis but his wishes were superseded. Now, I'm not saying I favor this or even think it's necessary (except to regain all the characters we've lost in all the recent massacres); I'm simply saying it would be the only way to deliver on the premise of FC being the true, last Crisis.

Personally, the one big change I want is for all the killings to go away. Not occasional, well-handled deaths; just the constant "killing for cheap thrills" ones. Though I fear that won't happen until at least Didio (and likely several editors as well) leave their posts. Which isn't likely to happen unless FC turns out to be a big fiasco (which COULD happen...) whcih would suck if they DID get ruined a week after FC

and how come wolfman got superseded?

[Ian J.N.]

I don't think the characters of Countdown will be set up as New Gods or factor into Final Crisis in a concrete way. I think it's more about setting up the board: an unstable multiverse primed for a Crisis with no Monitors to interfere with Morrison's story (Monarch, Challengers subplot), the New Gods reduced to the transients and such we saw in Seven Soldiers: Mr. Miracle (thanks to Holly, Mary, and Jimmy's release of their souls), some status quo for the supervillains (Piper subplot), and maybe a more Kirby-esque OMAC (Karate Kid subplot). Something like that, maybe. I'm not reading Countdown, so it's difficult to speculate.

[Will.S]

I don't think the characters of Countdown will be set up as New Gods or factor into Final Crisis in a concrete way. I think it's more about setting up the board: an unstable multiverse primed for a Crisis with no Monitors to interfere with Morrison's story (Monarch, Challengers subplot), the New Gods reduced to the transients and such we saw in Seven Soldiers: Mr. Miracle (thanks to Holly, Mary, and Jimmy's release of their souls), some status quo for the supervillains (Piper subplot), and maybe a more Kirby-esque OMAC (Karate Kid subplot). Something like that, maybe. I'm not reading Countdown, so it's difficult to speculate.Yeah I mean it's all just theories and stuff.

Dan Didio mentioned that Countdown is similar to the Infinite Crisis lead ins to put the pieces in place but some of the stuff just seemed to take so long until recently. I'm hoping that Countdown doesn't end with a whimper leaving with Final Crisis having to pick up the slack but it's either 2 things:

A) Countdown is either working from Grant Morrison's plan and is building itself to get to the points reached in Final Crisis....

or

B) They set up the pieces from the start and it's up to Grant to move them from where they ended in Countdown to Final Crisis and onwards.

So far we're seeing the Red Robin part being set up so that was foretold in the first teaser splash we got from Phil Jimenez's piece.

http://images.newsarama.com/dccomics/WWIII/bigteaser_full_t.jpg

Donna and Kyle may get those costumes as well but nothing yet on that front.

[NotSuper]

Apparently, Superman-Prime respects Henshaw (even calling him "Mr." in his one-shot special), probably because they're both victims of forces bigger than themselves. In addition, Prime might be able to give Henshaw his wish for death. Ironically, Prime wouldn't want to kill Henshaw, as he's alienated from the other heroes and villains and needs someone to talk to.

[Slaughter]

Apparently, Superman-Prime respects Henshaw (even calling him "Mr." in his one-shot special), probably because they're both victims of forces bigger than themselves. In addition, Prime might be able to give Henshaw his wish for death. Ironically, Prime wouldn't want to kill Henshaw, as he's alienated from the other heroes and villains and needs someone to talk to.

I agree. Ironically, Henshaw could be somekind of mentor figure to Prime. They agree with many things and from all the guys at Sinestro Corps, Henshaw was the only one that saw eye-to-eye with Prime. Prime didn't care much for Parallax, possibly belives Sinestro is a evil villain that can help him and just that, and Prime hates the Anti-Monitor, above all. It was very good that Prime betrayed him, as Prime turning into a lackey of the Anti-Monitor makes no sense.

[Choppa]

Christ hasn't Kyle had enough costume changes recently? He should go on that Model Runway show.

[Will.S]

Christ hasn't Kyle had enough costume changes recently? He should go on that Model Runway show.
Hmm looking at it again, wasn't that costume in the first preview pic his Ion one? I guess he's not going back to that anytime soon then, Dianna.......maybe.

[Choppa]

I don't think so. Wasn't his make covering his mouth as well? With all the stars and stuff?

[Will.S]

Ok now we have a bit more to work with:

http://reilly2040.co.uk/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/mongol-ad.jpg

http://www.newsarama.com/dcnew/Dec07/DiDio/02/LIBRA-ad.jpg

http://www.newsarama.com/dcnew/Didio/WHT/OPPRESSION.jpg

So villains include Braniac, Mongul with several power rings, and Libra.

Here's another tidbit, in the Rucka debrief podcast (on wordballoon.com) Rucka had stated that the Flash is going to be running around in Final Crisis with a copy of the Crime Bible.

[TheCrisisKid]

Martian Manhunter is because he plays a role in the Salvation Run storyline where he goes undercover as a villian. Joker has already showed up in the story, and I don't know about Catwoman.

[Choppa]

Batman's costume in the teaser poster is from The Resurrection of Ra's Al Ghul Arc written by Morrison and is going to be explored more in an upcoming issue of Batman or 'Tec, I forget which one.

[IRONY...]

So I dont think that there is a thread like this...

What do u think Morrisson's Final Crisis would be about...

I am not searching for spoilers just for guesses and ideas

Who knows maybe Morrisson is reading this board and hears from our ideas;)

[Will.S]

I have a similar thread here (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=204727).

[Micro]

I don't know if this was pointed out yet, but in the "Heroes Die" cover, the superman seems to be wearing the "Earth-One" Superman costume, with the smaller "S" and shorter cape...

[Ian J.N.]

What do u think Morrisson's Final Crisis would be about...
Earth-1, which has been conspicuously absent from Countdown's multiverse tour. Final Crisis will feature every notable Silver Age character, from Anthro to Kamandi, but especially those DC icons depicted in the Final Crisis ad. The inhabitants of Earth-1 will become the Fifth World's New Gods, infused by the Source, and fashioned into mystical fountainheads for the modern DC characters. Their influence will extend through all 52 Earths, uniting and expanding the multiverse into a megaverse, with a cool Morrisonian cosmology to it all.

Alternatively, it will be about a lot of heroes gang-fighting a bad guy and bad guy minions.

[Will.S]

Earth-1, which has been conspicuously absent from Countdown's multiverse tour. Final Crisis will feature every notable Silver Age character, from Anthro to Kamandi, but especially those DC icons depicted in the Final Crisis ad. The inhabitants of Earth-1 will become the Fifth World's New Gods, infused by the Source, and fashioned into mystical fountainheads for the modern DC characters. Their influence will extend through all 52 Earths, uniting and expanding the multiverse into a megaverse, with a cool Morrisonian cosmology to it all.

Alternatively, it will be about a lot of heroes gang-fighting a bad guy and bad guy minions.
While I'm not 100% about the Earth-1 stuff (why Earth-1 specifically?), that sounds pretty spot on from what I've seen.

[Ian J.N.]

While I'm not 100% about the Earth-1 stuff (why Earth-1 specifically?), that sounds pretty spot on from what I've seen.
The Earth-1 stuff is just a guess on my part, and yeah, I'm also a bit skeptical. There haven't been any "clues" indicating its involvement. My speculation is based mostly on that Final Crisis ad, which seems pretty generic unless those aren't New Earth's heroes. Also, if you're going to have a Crisis to end all Crises, it would make sense to have the pre-Crisis DCU involved, for a 'come full circle' kind of idea. The new Earth-1, presumably, is a lot like the pre-Crisis DCU (which was Earth-1 back in the day), just like the new Earth-2, 3, 4, etc. are a lot like pre-Crisis Earths of those names. Also also, I can see Morrison wanting to play around with pre-Crisis characters and ideas. That's basically what he's been doing with Batman and All-Star Superman.

[MWGallaher]

I'm intrigued that there will apparently be multiversal series (like the Tangent mini) that will run longer than Final Crisis, and that books like Green Lantern have already previewed the coming years. So neither a major reboot nor a collapsing of the multiverse seems to be on the agenda.
My current guess: everything's destroyed except for the real Earth-Prime, and the DC multiverse lives on as a bunch of comic books.

[Ian J.N.]

Random thought: Maybe Final Crisis is an Age of Apocalypse kind of thing where the biggest event to retcon DC history—Crisis on Infinite Earths—is itself retconned out of existence.

The series is self-contained because New Earth has (temporarily) reverted to pre-Crisis continuity. The "Barry Allen: Rebirth" rumour pertains to the fact that he never died; it's a one-shot or supporting miniseries exploring that idea. The pre-Crisis inspired Legion we've been seeing is from this timeline. They were one of three alternate Legions, but the other two have been wiped from existence—hence the 30th Century Crisis. In anticipation they captured Bart in the lightning rod, because they need a hero from the old timeline who is resistant to changes.

The series heavily features the New Gods, because (being Gods) they're aware that everything's been changed, and maybe it's the Source that's responsible. The villains of Salvation Run are likewise aware, because they were on a Fourth World planet when it all happened.

The whole thing is to address Crisis on Infinite Earths one more time before closing that chapter for good.

[botch]

I'm also wondering what's the deal with Kingdom Come Superman there, we see an atom style signature there so that's another interesting thing we haven't seen revealed but perhaps that Superman will have a purpose in Final Crisis outside of Geoff Johns plans for him in JSA.

I don't know if this has been answered but Kingdom Come Superman is the innoculated Hero from Earth 22. Innoculated against The Great Disaster.

[Choppa]

Why do you guys think that Earth 1 resemebles the Pre-Crisis Earth 1 and not the Post-Crisis Pre-IC Earth 1?

[Will.S]

I don't know if this has been answered but Kingdom Come Superman is the innoculated Hero from Earth 22. Innoculated against The Great Disaster.
Wow, that's interesting. Was this shown in the JSA book?

[NotSuper]

Earth-1, which has been conspicuously absent from Countdown's multiverse tour. Final Crisis will feature every notable Silver Age character, from Anthro to Kamandi, but especially those DC icons depicted in the Final Crisis ad. The inhabitants of Earth-1 will become the Fifth World's New Gods, infused by the Source, and fashioned into mystical fountainheads for the modern DC characters. Their influence will extend through all 52 Earths, uniting and expanding the multiverse into a megaverse, with a cool Morrisonian cosmology to it all.
I have a similar theory. I think the heroes of New Earth will become the New Gods.

I think the Great Disaster will hit that planet and destroy most of the population. Jimmy Olsen will die, releasing all the god energy he's been storing and empowering the heroes shown on the cover. The planets of New Genesis and Apokolips will be forcibly combined. The gods of the Fourth World will all die, except for Darkseid and Metron, with the former taking resident on the planet in Salvation Run, turning it into another Apokolips (with all the villains serving him). Likewise, the New Gods of New Earth will rebuild their planet and act as actual gods in order to give the survivors the hope needed to go on. They'll even rename it New Genesis to signify that this is a new beginning.

This idea even ties into Blackest Night, with the dead (much more of them after this scenario) coming back. Afterwards, I see the mainstream DCU becoming Earth-1.

[gwor]

Hmm, that would be kinda cool... and fix many recent continuity issues.

And start fresh...

[Ian J.N.]

I have a similar theory. I think the heroes of New Earth will become the New Gods.

I think the Great Disaster will hit that planet and destroy most of the population. Jimmy Olsen will die, releasing all the god energy he's been storing and empowering the heroes shown on the cover. The planets of New Genesis and Apokolips will be forcibly combined. The gods of the Fourth World will all die, except for Darkseid and Metron, with the former taking resident on the planet in Salvation Run, turning it into another Apokolips (with all the villains serving him). Likewise, the New Gods of New Earth will rebuild their planet and act as actual gods in order to give the survivors the hope needed to go on. They'll even rename it New Genesis to signify that this is a new beginning.

This idea even ties into Blackest Night, with the dead (much more of them after this scenario) coming back. Afterwards, I see the mainstream DCU becoming Earth-1.
A lot of cool ideas there. I especially like the idea of "New Apokolips" with Darkseid and all the DC villains.

[NotSuper]

A lot of cool ideas there. I especially like the idea of "New Apokolips" with Darkseid and all the DC villains.
Thanks. I figure Luthor or The Joker could be the new Desaad.

[carabas]

Thanks. I figure Luthor or The Joker could be the new Desaad.Those two are more like the new Darkseid and Granny Goodness, I reckon.

[NotSuper]

Those two are more like the new Darkseid and Granny Goodness, I reckon.
I think Darkseid will still be around after the other New Gods are gone. Luthor might be a good ruler of Apokolips if Darkseid doesn't survive, though. Heck, his character did have his own planet in the pre-Crisis DCU.