New Day: Spider-Man and Civil War/New Avengers

[spidarwin]

Now that the "One More Day" storyline has concluded, I have some questions regarding the intended effect on the "Civil War" and "New Avengers" plots of the three main Peter Parker character development points which changed:

1: Peter Parker never married Mary Jane Watson in MU 616.

2: Spider-Man was never revealed to the public at large as being Peter Parker.

3: Parker has the tech webshooters and not the built-in organics.

I consider the first two to be serious retcons which NOT ONLY change the ability to create dramatic stories (JQ's intent), but also with changes in considerations, would have caused totally different decisions to have been made by the character, due to a shift in responsibilities.

My first question is, simply, how much of Civil War would logically have changed if Peter Parker wasn't married? I think that Peter the outsider would have joined Cap's team initially, instead of fighting.

Next, did Parker never live in Stark Tower? May Parker? Some of the Spider-Man storyline developed by exploring the interpersonal relationships of the team through contact with Parker's family - will Jarvis no longer remember Aunt May? Was there never a tabloid flap over MJ and Stark? Was Peter never employed by Stark?

Would there be any impact on the Scarlet Spider suits development resulting from hypothetical physical changes to Parker, considering the design was developed based on Parker's body at the time, and now he's no longer got the internal organs that create webs? I think the suits shown in A:tI don't take into account his interim physiology, but I'm not sure.

[XPac]

It really is confusing. They seem to have a house now, so I'm not sure they ended up living in Stark Tower. But who knows. Retcons like this are always very confusing... it's like Marvels' own little Crisis of Infinate Earths or something.

[Will.S]

Ugh, too many continuity headaches.

I can't even begin to comment until Quesada explains how OMD's ripple effects will affect big name titles like New Avengers and Spider-Man's future appearances.

[XPac]

Ugh, too many continuity headaches.

I can't even begin to comment until Quesada explains how OMD's ripple effects will affect big name titles like New Avengers and Spider-Man's future appearances.

I'm seriously wondering if Spidey won't be the New Avenger to "defect" from the team. It might be easier to just pull Spidey out of the mainstream for a while and have him somewhat isolated in his own bubble so people aren't distracted by the continutiy issues he brings up.

[Tobias Drake]

""So what does Mephisto do?" I ask.

"He makes everybody forget Peter's Spider-Man."

"Uh, huh. So Aunt May's still in the hospital --"

"No, he saves Aunt May."

"But if all he does is save her life and make everybody forget he's Spidey, she still has a scar on her midsection."

"No, he makes that go away too."

"Okay...:

"Then he wakes up in her house."

"The house that was burned down?"

"Right."

"But how --"

"Mephisto undoes that as well."

"Okay. And the guys who shot at Peter and May and were killed, they're alive too? Mephisto can bring guys back from the dead?"

"It's all part of the spell."

"And Doc Strange can't tell?"

"No,"

"And the newspaper articles? News footage?"

"Joe, it's been forgotten."

"I'm just asking is that stuff there or not there?"

"Not there. And Peter's web shooters are back."

"Is this the same spell or a different spell?"

"Same spell."

"How does making people forget he's Spidey bring back his web shooters?"

"It's magic, okay?"

"I see. And Harry's back."

"Right."

"And Mephisto does this too."

"Yep."

"So is Harry back from the dead, or has he been alive? If they ask him, hey Harry, what did you do last summer, will he remember? And the year before? And the year before? If he says they all went on a picnic two years ago, will they remember it?"

"It's --"

"Because if he now has a life he remembers, if he's not back from the dead, then you've changed the continuity you said you didn't want to change. Those are your only options: he was brought back from the dead, and there's a grave, and people remember him dying --"

"Mephisto changes THEIR memories too."

"-- or he's effectively been alive as far as our characters know, so he's been alive all along, so either way as far as our characters are concerned, continuity's been violated going back to 1971.

How do you explain that?"

"It's magic, we don't have to explain it.""
~JMS vs. Quesada (http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=141756)

Judging from this, I'm guessing everything is the same except he has webshooters and isn't married anymore, and nobody knows his identity. How? "It's magic."

[Will.S]

I'm seriously wondering if Spidey won't be the New Avenger to "defect" from the team. It might be easier to just pull Spidey out of the mainstream for a while and have him somewhat isolated in his own bubble so people aren't distracted by the continutiy issues he brings up.
I wouldn't be surprised if Spider-Man was taken out for OMD reasons but then again Secret Invasion itself may cause as much disarray within teams as Civil War did.

[TotalWorldDomination]

According to Joe Q, It seems that peter DID unmask during the Civil War, but Miphisto has made it so that no one remembers who was under the mask when he did unmask.

Thus peter was still a member of the New Avengers, lived in stark tower, and did everything in Civil War, with the only change being that no one can remember anything about peter's personal life or his name.

This means that SOMEONE has to realize that there memories have been fiddled with at some point. I mean, everyone remembers the unmasking, but not who he was? Isn't someone going to think it's odd that a hero as "low rent" as spider-man had the power to make the whole planet forget his name?

The Aunt May's house/Mechanical Web Shooters/Harry being alive is still up in the air. I have no idea how erasing peoples memories of the marriage dose any of that.

[Dark Traveller]

So even if only his memories have been changed, and not events.
Isn't he still going to ask himself why he's in NA?

Unless he has a completely new set of very compelling (if false) memories for being so.

Wait, if events are still the same, um mostly; and his and other memories have been changed.
Isn't he still married?

[spidarwin]

According to Joe Q, It seems that peter DID unmask during the Civil War, but Miphisto has made it so that no one remembers who was under the mask when he did unmask.

Thus peter was still a member of the New Avengers, lived in stark tower, and did everything in Civil War, with the only change being that no one can remember anything about peter's personal life or his name.

This means that SOMEONE has to realize that there memories have been fiddled with at some point. I mean, everyone remembers the unmasking, but not who he was? Isn't someone going to think it's odd that a hero as "low rent" as spider-man had the power to make the whole planet forget his name?
.

Which now is going to make one James Howlett very angry.

[Shyft]

didnt he also get organic webs IN an Avengers story? Dissassembled right?

[jpk]

Well. OK. It's hard for me to understand how the Sorceror Supreme could be duped by a spell. But I'll suspend my disbelief for now.

Tony would still know Spider-Man is Peter because he knew before the unmasking. Ditto Jessica. Logan will sniff it out.

That leaves Danny, Luke, Clint and Maya (echo) as the ones who won't know Spidey's identity, right?

[XPac]

Well. OK. It's hard for me to understand how the Sorceror Supreme could be duped by a spell. But I'll suspend my disbelief for now.

Tony would still know Spider-Man is Peter because he knew before the unmasking. Ditto Jessica. Logan will sniff it out.

That leaves Danny, Luke, Clint and Maya (echo) as the ones who won't know Spidey's identity, right?

He shared his identity with his Avenger teammaes even before he revealed himself publically though... so I'm assuming all his New Avenger teammates past and present know.

But really who knows how much if any of his NA history was tweaked.

[bjtrdff]

I'd say the NA knowing his ID will stay, like almost everything else. Harry and the webshooters seem to be the only different things at this point, according to JQ.

[DarKye]

It's magic. We're not supposed to think about it.



In any case, I was asking myself the same thing. I guess we'll see them making stuff up as they go along to fix these problems.

[jackolover]

My first question is, simply, how much of Civil War would logically have changed if Peter Parker wasn't married? I think that Peter the outsider would have joined Cap's team initially, instead of fighting.



According to Marvel, everything happened in Civil War, just as the books show. Peter joined Stark, wearing the Iron Spider suit, defected, and fought on Caps side, and is now a renegade and an Avenger. Peter and Aunt May moved into Stark Towers, because Mays house was blown up, and Jarvis did know May. The only thing retconned, presumably, is that Aunt May either was saved by Peter from the snipers bullet, (as there was only one person to save in the room, now that MJ was missing), or, she was shot and recovered.

The big problem here is that, the insurance rebuilt the house in speedy time. Or, BND starts about 6 months down the track, and allows the house to be built. According to the Free comic book day issue of BND, JJJ says there have been no sightings of Spiderman for three whole weeks. But that could just mean Spiderman was in action for months after the OMD retcon, but only recently took a 3 week hietis, which could put BND after Secret Invasion.

[BYC]

I'm sure Joe Q will make sure everything fits :)

What will probably happen is that BND happens like 3 months after all the current stuff, that would explain why nobody has seen Spider-Man in a while. As for the rest, I'm thinking people don't remember Spider-Man ever unmasking, nor will people remember Spider-Man living in Stark tower, or any of that. Why is Harry back? I have no f-ing clue.

[Asian_Invasion]

Just thinking of how they are going to retcon everything hurts my head. But my big one is if the Scarlet Spiders still exist.

[RhynoWoody]

There is so very much I do not understand. For some reason, I really cannot get my head around the web shooters. I personally loved the web shooters, and hated when The Other got rid of them, so yes I'm glad they are back...but, why oh why would Mephisto give him back his web shooters? Why?

Once I figure out that, I'll move on to every other retcon issue. I like to start small.

[Kevinroc]

He shared his identity with his Avenger teammaes even before he revealed himself publically though... so I'm assuming all his New Avenger teammates past and present know.

But really who knows how much if any of his NA history was tweaked.

No, I think his former Avengers teammates have forgotten. He might share his ID with his New Avengers teammates but they would be the only ones. Marvel won't even say if MJ knows or not right now.

(And Bendis isn't letting go of Spider-Man on New Avengers.)

[DeadXMan]

I'm still thinking all Mepshesto did was place Pete in to an illusion world
and the spidy in NA is a skrull.

[Shade 20x6]

Marvel is trying to feed us the bull that the last 20 years of Spider-Man continuity has had ZERO major effect on the Marvel Universe.

Translation: "Thanks for buying Civil War, suckers!"

:mad:

[Slyfer]

Ahmm making Strange forget is F'ing pushing it.

[Slyfer]

I'm still thinking all Mepshesto did was place Pete in to an illusion world
and the spidy in NA is a skrull.

That actually would make sense. Maybe Spidey's continuity isn't really f'ed its just in a pocket dimension and since the skrulls have been planting seeds all along Peter Parker in NA is a skrull. Bendis would have used this to blow alot of us the readers out of the water. But alas that would mean that the marriage could be saved and Joe Q says, " NAY!! THE MARRIAGE MUST NE'ER BE!! "

[DeadXMan]

or maybe the whole things been plotted out to have Pete finally accept that both May's and Ben's Death wasn't wasn't his fault.


BND isn't even out yet

at lest we tried the clone saga out first before we boycotted

[rZi]

Magic retcons more often than not, don't work.

Especialy when it's 20+ years....

[DeadXMan]

and yet 40yr ones envolving russians and bionic arms do?

[protege]

There is so very much I do not understand. For some reason, I really cannot get my head around the web shooters. I personally loved the web shooters, and hated when The Other got rid of them, so yes I'm glad they are back...but, why oh why would Mephisto give him back his web shooters? Why?

Once I figure out that, I'll move on to every other retcon issue. I like to start small.

Why would he bring Harry back?

[Shyft]

Bendis should use the new retcon that seems to bring people back to life and bring in Ben Reily as a replacement for Spiderman, while spiderman goes and sorts out his life, (read: While Marvel sort out what Spiderman continuity does/does not exist) He could use a new costume (maybe one similar to the black suit in style, but with a red body and black spider, or possibly a red body and white spider, similar to Ultimate Spiderwoman) and call himself the Scarlet Spider again, having an issue dedicated to him beating up the Initiative Scarlet Spiders to reclaim the name.

[Will.S]

and yet 40yr ones envolving russians and bionic arms do?Ed's retcon at least was as well thought out as it can be and didn't involve magic whereas OMD is the opposite.

[GRANT!]

There supposebly a Spider-man spotlight issue of New Avengersduring Secret Invasion. I imagine they would deal with it there.

[anthony!]

Couldn't you just have Spider-man be a Skrull from Cap's death onward?

Cap dies and then the real Spider-man goes off to see to Aunt May and OMD/BND. The Skrulls see this and get one of their agents to impersonate the black-costumed Spider-man. Perhaps with the help of a Skrull Dr. Strange?

Perhaps Spider-man will leave the New Avengers in the upcoming annual?

At any rate, I'm REALLY confused on this point and want it clarified...and I've been liking Spider-man as an Avengers. I think it should stay.

[Theophilus]

Ed's retcon at least was as well thought out as it can be and didn't involve magic whereas OMD is the opposite.

Is there a technical term to distinguish between the "you saw it happen but it never really did" and the "you didn't see it but it was happening underneath your nose the entire time" retcon?

[Will.S]

Is there a technical term to distinguish between the "you saw it happen but it never really did" and the "you didn't see it but it was happening underneath your nose the entire time" retcon?
There are probably more specific types of retcons that can be classified a certain way but I don't know what the terms would be exactly for the types you describe.

The "You saw happen but never really did" retcons are usually DC style re-writing of continuity such as when they cherry pick and choose the past continuity to their liking. Otherwise when it's not a retcon it's either described as illusions, fake memories or dream sequences. The "you didn't see it but it was happening underneath your nose the entire time" retcon is something I have a hard time knowing where that's been applied to.

Seems more along the lines of sub-plotting like skrull reveals and so on. Maybe it would be better if you gave specific examples of retcons to make them easier to classify.

[Last_Avenger]

This is so gay, I liked the organic web shooters...

this totally F@#$% up Civil War for me...

LAAAAAAAMMMMMMMEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[DeadXMan]

NA spidy is a skrull

Mephisto has him and MJ in a realm of BND.

[Dark Traveller]

News from Marvel's SM Status quo page;

NO ONE KNOWS HES SPIDERMAN.

Not the Avengers, not daredevil, not Dr Strange, not Wolverine.
Some may remember Spiderman unmasked, but they won't recall who it was! WTF.

[matthewaos]

My mind hurts! And I don't think I will go there. Have luck suckers understand what JQ wants to do. I'll stop reading Spider-Man.

But just to clarify, if this is gonna last for a year or two it could be a nice story, though we know JQ wants it as a permanent solution. Also, it seems like only MJ knows the truth.

[xarathos]

The sad thing is I knew they was going to happen last year. I could see it coming. I swear, I knew it would be terrible if they did something like this, but it happened anyway. Why? WHY!

[TotalWorldDomination]

At least this all gives the New Avengers a reason to distrust Peter even more- they don't even know who he is! How can they trust him if he can't trust them with his secret Ident? I hope they kick him off of the New Avengers cause they can't trust him... that'd be a nice little slap for him.

Even worse, now he can't just tell them his secret ID cause it would be a stupid way to undo somthing they just retconned! Oh wait, they just did that with the unmasking... well, expect him to tell everyone that used to know in amatter of months. Stupid Joephisto...

[XPac]

At least this all gives the New Avengers a reason to distrust Peter even more- they don't even know who he is! How can they trust him if he can't trust them with his secret Ident? I hope they kick him off of the New Avengers cause they can't trust him... that'd be a nice little slap for him.

Even worse, now he can't just tell them his secret ID cause it would be a stupid way to undo somthing they just retconned! Oh wait, they just did that with the unmasking... well, expect him to tell everyone that used to know in amatter of months. Stupid Joephisto...

I think Spidey has earned a good deal of trust and respect in the hero community long before anyone knew his secret ID though... the fact is heroes are used to not knowing each others secret identities. For them, that's actually fairly normal.

If marvel doe want Spidey off the team, OMD does give potential reasons to do it. But if Bendis still wants to use the character, the ID thing can be worked with.

[Rahul]

How about if the whole Secret Invasion(and its end) takes place before OMD? There's nothing to contradict that yet...

[TotalWorldDomination]

I think Spidey has earned a good deal of trust and respect in the hero community long before anyone knew his secret ID though... the fact is heroes are used to not knowing each others secret identities. For them, that's actually fairly normal.

If marvel doe want Spidey off the team, OMD does give potential reasons to do it. But if Bendis still wants to use the character, the ID thing can be worked with.

yeah, but you're talking about a team where everyone else has shared there secret ID BUT Spidey. He's the only hero in the MU who's life outside of the costume is a total unknown to anyone. Most people in the "Hero Community" know each others secret IDs at this point. They know there families, there personal struggles, and the history that makes them into tights wearing super powered avengers. Spider-Man has literally become the ONLY hero in the MU that no other hero knows anything about. It's going to raise more then a few questions (or at least it should) since no one knows who he actually is.

Imagine one person you hung out with all the time refused to take his mask off, tell you his real name or anything about his life and you suddenly find out there are shape-shifting alien invaders infiltrating your team. Pretty suspicious if you ask me.

[unkiedev]

News from Marvel's SM Status quo page;

NO ONE KNOWS HES SPIDERMAN.

Not the Avengers, not daredevil, not Dr Strange, not Wolverine.
Some may remember Spiderman unmasked, but they won't recall who it was! WTF. I know, it is super frustrating.

Wolverine SHOULD be able to figure it out based on scent again. I wonder if the MAGIC will work forward as well: for example, let's say Spidey does tell Dr. Strange he is Spider-man, will Dr. Strange just forget right away?

[Tobias Drake]

Strange, at the very least, should be incredibly suspicious that somehow, for some reason, despite having publicly unmasked on live television, the entire world doesn't know who Spider-Man is. Strange is smart enough to realize that something isn't right about that scenario, and just saying "it's magic" shouldn't be enough to justify why the Sorceror Supreme doesn't.

[XPac]

yeah, but you're talking about a team where everyone else has shared there secret ID BUT Spidey. He's the only hero in the MU who's life outside of the costume is a total unknown to anyone. Most people in the "Hero Community" know each others secret IDs at this point. They know there families, there personal struggles, and the history that makes them into tights wearing super powered avengers. Spider-Man has literally become the ONLY hero in the MU that no other hero knows anything about. It's going to raise more then a few questions (or at least it should) since no one knows who he actually is.

Imagine one person you hung out with all the time refused to take his mask off, tell you his real name or anything about his life and you suddenly find out there are shape-shifting alien invaders infiltrating your team. Pretty suspicious if you ask me.

I'm sure it will raise questions... but as I said, I think Spidey has ultimately already gained everyone's trust and respect. I don't see him getting kicked off the team unless he chooses to leave it. Whatever doubts his identity might raise, I think he's earned the benefit of the doubt.

[Tobias Drake]

Given the Skrull invasion and the ensuing paranoia, I don't think anyone holds "benefit of the doubt". Luke Cage is even questioning his own wife.

[XPac]

Given the Skrull invasion and the ensuing paranoia, I don't think anyone holds "benefit of the doubt". Luke Cage is even questioning his own wife.

Again, I'm sure that there will be questions. But unless the NA title is getting cancelled anytime soon, the team will stick together. So whatever doubts they have, at this point I do think they're going to give each other the benefit of the doubt until someone does something which justifies acting on those doubts.

[Tobias Drake]

Again, I'm sure that there will be questions. But unless the NA title is getting cancelled anytime soon, the team will stick together. So whatever doubts they have, at this point I do think they're going to give each other the benefit of the doubt until someone does something which justifies acting on those doubts.

Something like a large-scale memory wipe of ambiguous nature and unknown extent of the effects.

[XPac]

Something like a large-scale memory wipe of ambiguous nature and unknown extent of the effects.

If something like that were to happen, would anyone logically assume Spidey did it? They'd sooner put the finger of blame on Wanda than Peter for that one. According to Bendis podcast, Spidey will still be an Avenger so again whatever questions may arise, they're going to give him the benefit of the doubt over it.

[Tobias Drake]

If something like that were to happen, would anyone logically assume Spidey did it? They'd sooner put the finger of blame on Wanda than Peter for that one. According to Bendis podcast, Spidey will still be an Avenger so again whatever questions may arise, they're going to give him the benefit of the doubt over it.

Considering the only effect we know of was beneficial to Spidey and Spidey alone, I'd at least have my doubts. The first question would be why anyone other than Spidey would do it. The second question would be, knowing that my memory was screwed with, what ELSE did he remove? A question there is no way to answer, and the more you think about it, the greater the suspicion rises.

[XPac]

Considering the only effect we know of was beneficial to Spidey and Spidey alone, I'd at least have my doubts. The first question would be why anyone other than Spidey would do it. The second question would be, knowing that my memory was screwed with, what ELSE did he remove? A question there is no way to answer, and the more you think about it, the greater the suspicion rises.

They obviously don't know that the only person this effects is Spidey... if we're talking reality warping, there's really no way they could know that.

Again, I DO agree this will raise questions. My point isn't that he this won't raise suspicion, but rather that Spider-Man has earned their trust. Drama is the key to good storytelling, so the dramatic tension that this builds especially around Silent Invasion is workable (though I wouldn't blame any writers if they didn't simply opt NOT to touch the OMD stuff until the whole thing is better clarrified).

But ultimately heroes have each other's back. They NA had Tony's back when they thought he needed them with Deathlock, and that kind of tells you how they work. They don't ditch or abandon Spidey unless Spidey chooses to leave.

[Will.S]

The more I think about it the more I see that the secret identity issues weren't erased from the past. What they did with Mephisto is erase MU's knowledge of Peter Parker being Spider-Man.

For example, during Breakout Spider-Man has his mask taken off and villains can see his face. That still happened and his unmasking in CW still happened but all traces of his real identity have been either hidden or erased such as news articles and any knowledge of knowing Peter as Spider-Man. Spider-Man is still a New Avenger though as he still joined by tagging along some SHIELD helicopter and was part of the Raft superhero containmentment crew but Pete wasn't with his wife he was with his.....girlfriend MJ.

Guys like DD, Wolverine, and May don't know but Marvel writers can re-introduce that into only the people Peter trusts or people that will eventually find out who he is anyway. I'm not saying I like this, it's still a pretty damn cheap way of undoing the Civil War unmasking but by digging themselves into a hole they seemed to have no other choice.

I still don't think that the identity reveal of Peter was fully explored outside of the immediate reaction books like Frontline and his own titles. Marvel said that the unmasking provided a lot of potential stories and yet they put it back in the box so soon.

[Tobias Drake]

They obviously don't know that the only person this effects is Spidey... if we're talking reality warping, there's really no way they could know that.

Again, I DO agree this will raise questions. My point isn't that he this won't raise suspicion, but rather that Spider-Man has earned their trust. Drama is the key to good storytelling, so the dramatic tension that this builds especially around Silent Invasion is workable (though I wouldn't blame any writers if they didn't simply opt NOT to touch the OMD stuff until the whole thing is better clarrified).

But ultimately heroes have each other's back. They NA had Tony's back when they thought he needed them with Deathlock, and that kind of tells you how they work. They don't ditch or abandon Spidey unless Spidey chooses to leave.

If they weren't in the middle of a secret conflict with shapeshifting aliens, I would agree. But they are. The paranoia has reached the point that Luke Cage is questioning his own wife; he does not trust Spider-Man more than he trusts his own wife. If he's capable of suspecting her right now, I don't see why he's not capable of suspecting Spider-Man.

Simply put: in a paranoid state where anyone can be the enemy, and even the people you love most could very easily be, trust that was established before the paranoid state came about means nothing.

[XPac]

If they weren't in the middle of a secret conflict with shapeshifting aliens, I would agree. But they are. The paranoia has reached the point that Luke Cage is questioning his own wife; he does not trust Spider-Man more than he trusts his own wife. If he's capable of suspecting her right now, I don't see why he's not capable of suspecting Spider-Man.

Simply put: in a paranoid state where anyone can be the enemy, and even the people you love most could very easily be, trust that was established before the paranoid state came about means nothing.

I'm not saying he wouldn't suspect ... like I said multiple times there will be questions and doubt. But my point is that if the team ultimately stays together, then that means they give each other the benefit of the doubt and continue to work together regardless of those doubts.

[XPac]

The more I think about it the more I see that the secret identity issues weren't erased from the past. What they did with Mephisto is erase MU's knowledge of Peter Parker being Spider-Man.

For example, during Breakout Spider-Man has his mask taken off and villains can see his face. That still happened and his unmasking in CW still happened but all traces of his real identity have been either hidden or erased such as news articles and any knowledge of knowing Peter as Spider-Man. Spider-Man is still a New Avenger though as he still joined by tagging along some SHIELD helicopter and was part of the Raft superhero containmentment crew but Pete wasn't with his wife he was with his.....girlfriend MJ.

Guys like DD, Wolverine, and May don't know but Marvel writers can re-introduce that into only the people Peter trusts or people that will eventually find out who he is anyway. I'm not saying I like this, it's still a pretty damn cheap way of undoing the Civil War unmasking but by digging themselves into a hole they seemed to have no other choice.

I still don't think that the identity reveal of Peter was fully explored outside of the immediate reaction books like Frontline and his own titles. Marvel said that the unmasking provided a lot of potential stories and yet they put it back in the box so soon.

Yeah. Some people will HAVE to know. Theres no way Daredevil and Wolverine won't recognize him in like 2 seconds.

I think marvel is doing this in part to allow the Peter Parker supporting cast to step up, as lately that's been replaced by superheroes. But he's still going to need to have some connections to the hero community especially if he's going to continue to be a New Avenger.

[Will.S]

Yeah. Some people will HAVE to know. Theres no way Daredevil and Wolverine won't recognize him in like 2 seconds.

I think marvel is doing this in part to allow the Peter Parker supporting cast to step up, as lately that's been replaced by superheroes. But he's still going to need to have some connections to the hero community especially if he's going to continue to be a New Avenger.
His relationship with Daredevil in particular is one of those things that you have to bring back even with the mindwipe so that's definitely going to be among the top priorities in regards to his relationships with other superheroes.

How they'll handle that though is what I'm wondering.

[XPac]

Yeah, his relationship with Daredevil in particular is one of those things that you have to bring back even with the mindwipe so that's definitely coming back.

Hmmm... I wonder if that works both ways. Did Peter forget all the secret identities he knew too? That would be weird.

[rpriske]

I've been thinking this over and over since this hit the net and it is finally here that I am going to say it...

WHO CARES?!?!?!

What I mean is, that continuity is simply a crutch that we use to keep things straight in our head. It reminds me of the stupid "Aunt May isn't really dead" thing they did years ago. It was stupid. We ignored it and just forgot that she was dead in the first place.

Nothing 'invalidates' any other story. The story still exists. Go ahead and read it. Enjoy it.

All that matters is whether the story is any good. Was 'One More Day' good? Not by any stretch of the imagination. I'm sorry I bought it.

Will 'Brand New Day' be good? I have high hopes... but those hopes have nothing to do with OMD. That is done. We have a new status quo. Period. End of story.

People bring up Crisis on Infinite Earths as a comparison. Good enough. Did it cause some continuity snafus (like in Titans, for example)? You bet.

Were the stories AFTER Crisis better than the ones that came before Crisis? You bet.

That is all that matters.

Now, I LIKED Peter married, so I am not a fan of the new status quo, but that's the way it goes. I didn't like them killing Libby on Lost either. Oh well. Life goes on.

[XPac]

I've been thinking this over and over since this hit the net and it is finally here that I am going to say it...

WHO CARES?!?!?!

What I mean is, that continuity is simply a crutch that we use to keep things straight in our head. It reminds me of the stupid "Aunt May isn't really dead" thing they did years ago. It was stupid. We ignored it and just forgot that she was dead in the first place.

Nothing 'invalidates' any other story. The story still exists. Go ahead and read it. Enjoy it.

All that matters is whether the story is any good. Was 'One More Day' good? Not by any stretch of the imagination. I'm sorry I bought it.

Will 'Brand New Day' be good? I have high hopes... but those hopes have nothing to do with OMD. That is done. We have a new status quo. Period. End of story.

People bring up Crisis on Infinite Earths as a comparison. Good enough. Did it cause some continuity snafus (like in Titans, for example)? You bet.

Were the stories AFTER Crisis better than the ones that came before Crisis? You bet.

That is all that matters.

Now, I LIKED Peter married, so I am not a fan of the new status quo, but that's the way it goes. I didn't like them killing Libby on Lost either. Oh well. Life goes on.

Well, if continuity doesn't effect your enjoyment of a book. more power to you. That certainly does make reading comics easier.

But for me, continuity is an element of good storytelling. If things don't end up making sense, it detracts me from the enjoyment of the story.

[Jeff-X]

If you think about it, the sheer number of other heroes all the Avengers deal with would they really notice Spider-man's secret identity slipping their minds? The only reason anyone would have taken note of him being Peter Parker was because Parker was semi-famous already for the pictures he took of Spider-Man in the newspaper. If he was just some random guy no one had ever heard of before, they probably would have spent weeks asking each other to remind them what his name was whenever they were talking about him.

For example, say there's someone you go to school with or work with that you talk to all the time, for months and months, but you can never remember their name. Do you stop and ask them their name, or would you feel that would be insulting to them so you just avoid it.


I don't think BND is going to be permanent, I think it's going to end up being something more like House of M, but a bit more lasting impact.

At some point MJ will end up revealing everything to Peter and they'll end up fighting Mephisto. So by the end of everything, Peter will have his memories back, Aunt May will still be alive, and Spider-Man will have his secret identity back. Of course, at the end of that I'm guessing MJ and Peter will decide they've grown apart or something and decide not to get back together since no one remembers them being together in the first place, except them and us readers.

[spidarwin]

I've been thinking this over and over since this hit the net and it is finally here that I am going to say it...

WHO CARES?!?!?!


Obviously many people; this thread's spanned five + pages.

Obviously Joe Quesada does; he's done a five-part CBR interview on the
matter, and approved the retroactive continuity in the first place.

Obviously I do; I started the thread.

Obviously you do. You replied to the comment thread.

Don't ask questions in which you create your own answer. It's bad form, chap.

[matthewaos]

Can we get Spider-Man off the Avengers? I don't want to read about him and start asking questions how this ties with the other. I am really bored and disappointed.

[Germ-X]

Can we get Spider-Man off the Avengers? I don't want to read about him and start asking questions how this ties with the other. I am really bored and disappointed.
Don't you mean lazy and cranky?

[matthewaos]

I have been bored on Spider-Man, ever since the book of Ezekiel ended and now I don't care, even though he is my favorite hero. Because I don't care for my favorite hero I am disappointed. And yeah, I am too lazy to try to think where all those crap ties into another, considering all this.

[StoneGold]

Obviously many people; this thread's spanned five + pages.


Eh, I've had bowel movements that have spanned five pages.

[CMBMOOL]

I recently dropped Amazing Spider-man, the moment I learned that NO ONE knows of Peter Secret ID and that it was magically gone away. :(

So until Marvel figures a way out of this problem, I will not be spending any money on any pre-BND Spidey books, without gaining a huge headache just thinking about them. :(

[spidarwin]

I recently dropped Amazing Spider-man, the moment I learned that NO ONE knows of Peter Secret ID and that it was magically gone away. :(

So until Marvel figures a way out of this problem, I will not be spending any money on any pre-BND Spidey books, without gaining a huge headache just thinking about them. :(

Interesting idea:
One Less Day

Wherein everyone forgets Peter Parker AND Spider-Man exist, stop spending money on the comic, and it goes away.

[ThunderKat]

i hope someone will be willing to help!! i don't know where to post this so i thought here; i'm can't bring myself to go into the Spider-Man section...

ok OMD has changed spidey, but i follow him in New Avengers.
i read the start of BND #546... read that back-up by Bob Gale & John Jr.

no one knows him?!
Matt Murdock & Parker have the closeset friendship in the MU and now he doesn't know who Spider-Man is?? But i assume Pete knows Matt is DD??

The last year of New Avengers, hell since it started all team members knew who he was, now they don't?? I thought that was what kept them close.
So the next issue of NA i read it'll be some mysterious dude in a Spidey suit?

What about the spell Dr. Strange cast showing their preferred life?
Also my friend mentioned that Strange tried to help Peter during OMD, shouldn't he know that somethings amiss?
I know Strange's had dealings with Mephisto before.
how does this work out?? its magic?!!? thats it?

as someone mentioned yes continuity gets to me too, when you've loved these books for so long and something as stupid as this happens you'll find yourself going, "huh?" alot i assume in the near future.


sorry its just a bit frustrating. because you can't vent at anyone!!

[XPac]

I think the easiest thing to do is just establish that the New Avengers and Daredevil at least know his identity quickly enough.

They can still have th MA and the rest of the pro-regs clueless about his identity... but his teammates and closest hero allies (Daredevil and maybe Black Cat) should know.

Even though I do think it's important that Peter's non-hero supporting cast be re-established, I think having a few heroes he can talk to with his mask off would be nice.

[drwho]

Someone mentioned that in brand new day it says peter has been out of the costume for 3 months. I havent read it but if so how the hell would that fit in with the Avengers.

[Will.S]

Outside of mere costume changes New Avengers barely if at all makes mention of Spider-Man's status quo from his own title. I wouldn't expect answers to the 3 month gap in NA unless the solo issue with Billy Tan is going to actually go in depth with the whole OMD thing.

Oh and btw Billy Tan draws a TERRIBLE Spider-Man mask.

[rpriske]

no one knows him?!
Matt Murdock & Parker have the closeset friendship in the MU and now he doesn't know who Spider-Man is?? But i assume Pete knows Matt is DD??



Closest frienship in the MU? That's a bit of a stretch. They aren't even close.
Try Luke Cage and Danny Rand for an easy example.


Remember something... if they do take away DD's knowledge of Spidey's identity, that just leaves it for some other writer to re-reveal it to him. It is no big deal.

[Bulky Brent]

Outside of mere costume changes New Avengers barely if at all makes mention of Spider-Man's status quo from his own title. I wouldn't expect answers to the 3 month gap in NA unless the solo issue with Billy Tan is going to actually go in depth with the whole OMD thing.

Oh and btw Billy Tan draws a TERRIBLE Spider-Man mask.
Honestly I don't think Bendis follows the continuity of ASM Peter Parker which in some ways is a good thing.I don't think we are all of a sudden going to See Peter go back to his Traditional suit and with his fellow teamates and The Mighty Avengers Saying who are you again?

[XPac]

I think the thing that REALLY messes up the continuity of everyting is the black costume.

If he had just stayed in his classic costume, then marvel could afford to be vague in regards to where Spiderman's OMD time line slides into the NA continuity. It could be before or after.

But because of the black costume, they're pretty much committed to having all of the NA stuff occur before OMD.

UNLESS we just assume that Spidey chooses to wear the black costume whenever he feels like it. MJ is the reason he stopped wearing the black suit to begin with. Maybe now we can just assume that's a non factor.

[matthewaos]

I think I said somewhere else that Spidey should be off the books for a while, considering that he is some months absent in BND. So to tie it up all together, before he wears the original costume he should have an absence. I wonder if they do this, or if this take part after SI, considering that Spider-Man has a spotlight issue.

[SnakeEater]

I have been bored on Spider-Man, ever since the book of Ezekiel ended and now I don't care, even though he is my favorite hero. Because I don't care for my favorite hero I am disappointed. And yeah, I am too lazy to try to think where all those crap ties into another, considering all this.

valid point.
i used to only collect spiderman but when they brought MJ back and took her away after the plane explosion in V2, i was just disgusted at how they handled peter like a homeless bum with no street smarts or intelligence.

JMS came along and it took me awhile to like the character but at this point i had found a place with the xmen. ive been bored since the first reboot of spiderman.

Now i sit here and have to figure out; where does the stacy mess fit in? why is harry back and Norman still pissed at peter? how come peter still cant catch a friggin break and get a decent enough job with his skills? why is mac gargen still the scoprion when we know it sucks? how come ANYONE could allow norman to be thunderbolts director? was all of JMS run really wiped out with OMD? if so then werent we technically screwed out of out money?

[vampireboy97]

i haven't read absolutley everyone's posts so i don't know if some has already brought up this idea, but my guess is that BRAND NEW DAY takes place straight after the civil war and just before he gets back with the new avengers again in his black suit.

maybe this whole thing takes place for a while and then he eventually finds a way to make everything go back to normal (causing aunt may to actually die and gets him back in the real world). but when metafisto or whatever makes the world go back to the way it was, only seconds have past in the real world.

BRAND NEW DAY may take weeks, months maybe even years but i think that the world will change back eventually and no one will know that it changed in the first place except peter, mj and metaphisto.

[matthewaos]

valid point.
i used to only collect spiderman but when they brought MJ back and took her away after the plane explosion in V2, i was just disgusted at how they handled peter like a homeless bum with no street smarts or intelligence.

JMS came along and it took me awhile to like the character but at this point i had found a place with the xmen. ive been bored since the first reboot of spiderman.

Now i sit here and have to figure out; where does the stacy mess fit in? why is harry back and Norman still pissed at peter? how come peter still cant catch a friggin break and get a decent enough job with his skills? why is mac gargen still the scoprion when we know it sucks? how come ANYONE could allow norman to be thunderbolts director? was all of JMS run really wiped out with OMD? if so then werent we technically screwed out of out money?

Gargan is back as Scorpion? Is this real? So what happens with Thunderbolts?

[SnakeEater]

Gargan is back as Scorpion? Is this real? So what happens with Thunderbolts?

i meant venom. sorry. the only reason im following thunderbolts is because i like norman but with all this crap being flund around im confused and im starting the not caring road myself. all i have to do is drop thunderbolts and im fine.

[darksaint124]

i haven't read absolutley everyone's posts so i don't know if some has already brought up this idea, but my guess is that BRAND NEW DAY takes place straight after the civil war and just before he gets back with the new avengers again in his black suit.

maybe this whole thing takes place for a while and then he eventually finds a way to make everything go back to normal (causing aunt may to actually die and gets him back in the real world). but when metafisto or whatever makes the world go back to the way it was, only seconds have past in the real world.

BRAND NEW DAY may take weeks, months maybe even years but i think that the world will change back eventually and no one will know that it changed in the first place except peter, mj and metaphisto.

BND takes place around the same time as the current NA storyline. In BND they make a reference to the Hood gathering the villains.(But, they also say that he(Spider-Man) only surfaced twice in the last few months-I know, I know, it hurts my head too)

[matthewaos]

BND takes place around the same time as the current NA storyline. In BND they make a reference to the Hood gathering the villains.(But, they also say that he(Spider-Man) only surfaced twice in the last few months-I know, I know, it hurts my head too)

How can they not see that it doesn't make sense?

[vitruvian]

BND takes place around the same time as the current NA storyline. In BND they make a reference to the Hood gathering the villains.(But, they also say that he(Spider-Man) only surfaced twice in the last few months-I know, I know, it hurts my head too)

Huh? There was no three month gap shown in NA, and in NA he wears the black costume while in BND he wears the familiar red and blue. There's no way they're taking place at the same time.

[spidarwin]

Huh? There was no three month gap shown in NA, and in NA he wears the black costume while in BND he wears the familiar red and blue. There's no way they're taking place at the same time.

And now presenting the left-turn at Albuquerque that you didn't see coming:

Peter Parker hasn't been Spider-Man for the past three months.

Some Warskrull has been wearing the black and white. No points if you
mention Dr. Strange in your attempt to refute this, either.

[Exo]

And now presenting the left-turn at Albuquerque that you didn't see coming:

Peter Parker hasn't been Spider-Man for the past three months.

Some Warskrull has been wearing the black and white. No points if you
mention Dr. Strange in your attempt to refute this, either.

Really? Well, I suspected as much. And I suspect Jarvis is the one on MA.

[vitruvian]

Some Warskrull has been wearing the black and white. No points if you
mention Dr. Strange in your attempt to refute this, either.

Yeah, except the NA have been seen fighting beaucoup supervillains on the street, so nobody would claim there had been no Spidey sightings.

[Crimson]

Just thinking of how they are going to retcon everything hurts my head. But my big one is if the Scarlet Spiders still exist.

Why? They are MVP clones who were trained by Taskmaster and wear costumes made by Iron Man.

BND takes place around the same time as the current NA storyline. In BND they make a reference to the Hood gathering the villains.(But, they also say that he(Spider-Man) only surfaced twice in the last few months-I know, I know, it hurts my head too)

Is it hard to believe people missed seeing him in WWH, the city was mostly empty.

New Avengers fighting Ninjas in Japan was most likely under the radar.

The Hood fight was mega confusing for anyone watching. There were like 30+ heroes there but only a handful of them were real.

We don't know if the New Avengers inclusion in the Symbiote Invasion was made public yet.

[Dark Traveller]

We don't know if the New Avengers inclusion in the Symbiote Invasion was made public yet.

Wasn't this watched by Hood and co on their TV?
I don't have the issue so I'm not sure.

[Crimson]

Wasn't this watched by Hood and co on their TV?
I don't have the issue so I'm not sure.

Yeah but how many members of public would be able recognize the New Avengers in symbiotes?

Most people I spoke to who have been reading comics for years didn't see to notice and only noticed the Mighty Avengers. ha.

[CMBMOOL]

Well based upon the events of New Avengers Annual #2 we can all assume 2 things:

1. Either the events of Secret Invasion happen before OMD

OR

2. The real Spider-man is trappped in a world based upon Mephisto's magic, because the villain felt his sorrow and manlipulated him and MJ into his clutches. :(


Either one could possible be the truth in uncovering the new timeline of Spider-man before BND.

[darksaint124]

Yeah but how many members of public would be able recognize the New Avengers in symbiotes?

Most people I spoke to who have been reading comics for years didn't see to notice and only noticed the Mighty Avengers. ha.

JJJ would have noticed(and made a big stink about it too):D