Pax Romana #1

[Erwin Heinek]

OK, I'm a sucker for time travel stories, alternate histories and conspiracy tales so this wasn't a hard sell for me when I read the solicitation info.

I was pretty much hooked from the first two lines of page 1 - "The megacity Constantinople [,] Post-aurora, before the synthetic rains..." but then I read the last line on page 1 - "I am the Gene Pope." and I knew that i had not made a mistake taking a chance on an unknown (to me since I hadn't read The Nightly News) creator. I have a feeling this book will be near the top of my read pile for as long as it comes out.

[Syntaxosaurus]

That issue was captivating.

Yes, it's sci-fi, but Hickman gives it the flavor of human history writ large. I can't recommend it enough.

[z0mbie_aut0pil0t]

The first half of the issue was very talky, but Hickman knows this haha. The last page made me want to buy the second issue. So it's all good.

[pigkiller]

Loved this book.

I was pretty sure I'd like it, but I didn't think I was gonna like it as much as I do.

creative art and layout, writing is awesome.

Best new book I've read in a long time.

[lboinyamouf4sho]

i'm not a sci-fi fan really nor do i know much about religon, i bought this book based only on how much i enjoyed the nightly news and i'm glad i did. it is very wordy like the news was but i don't mind at all, i never feel like i wasted my time reading a single word. very interesting stuff.

[anthony!]

Flipped through it as, being Catholic, I was curious....

They lost me completely on the papal infallibility issue. Here it seems to be interpreted as meaning the pope is incapable of sining or making a mistake. This is patently false, and a good deal of effort is make on the part of Catholics to communicate this to others.

Also I have to say...Gene Pope?!

As much as I love the idea of a speculative sci-fi series that features Catholics "of the future", it would reason that believability would rest on presenting Catholic theology as the church understands it, not as dissenters do.

Its difficult to imagine Catholics and the Catholic Church en masse being pro-genetic manipulation of humans, pro-time travel, etc.

Again, I flipped through it and did not read in detail. I could have misread, but that was my initial impression.

[Schmakt]

after reading a bunch of stuff online about this comic I picked it up a week late. My copy was kind of beat up, which sucked... and, yeah, it's definitely a lot of reading. I don't usually mind the reading (sometimes I actually *like* reading!), but with comics, I like my large groups of words to fit together with the art a little better. I remember, once or twice, reading some word balloons out of order, and I very often felt that the art was just a little too sparce and a little too disconnected from the text.

That said, I like the idea of the story and, while it wasn't enough to make me add it to my pull list yet, this first issue will keep me around for at least 2 more provided issue #2 is at least mediocre.

Looking forward to seeing where this goes. :)

[pigkiller]

Flipped through it as, being Catholic, I was curious....

They lost me completely on the papal infallibility issue. Here it seems to be interpreted as meaning the pope is incapable of sining or making a mistake. This is patently false, and a good deal of effort is make on the part of Catholics to communicate this to others.

Also I have to say...Gene Pope?!

As much as I love the idea of a speculative sci-fi series that features Catholics "of the future", it would reason that believability would rest on presenting Catholic theology as the church understands it, not as dissenters do.

Its difficult to imagine Catholics and the Catholic Church en masse being pro-genetic manipulation of humans, pro-time travel, etc.

Again, I flipped through it and did not read in detail. I could have misread, but that was my initial impression.

Yeah I think you need to read it to understand it. The church doesn't allow any genetic manipulation prior to birth, so what they allow is like advanced medical procedures. If that became commonplace, I'm sure the catholic church of our world would allow it.

Also, the pope says he knows he can make mistakes, and he thinks he is making one.

And the only people that know about the time travel are the pope and a few select cardinals.

SPOILERS . . . .








The gene pope isn't set up by the church . . . really, he is established by someone who atleast appears to be a non-catholic. (atleast it seems so far).

[PamGrierOverdrive]

The experimentation with format and storytelling here reminds me of Grendel and Kabuki. Thumbs up to a fresh talent trying to breath new life into this industry.

[Jonathan Hickman]

Thanks for the comments everyone all appreciated...


Flipped through it as, being Catholic, I was curious....

They lost me completely on the papal infallibility issue. Here it seems to be interpreted as meaning the pope is incapable of sining or making a mistake. This is patently false, and a good deal of effort is make on the part of Catholics to communicate this to others.

Also I have to say...Gene Pope?!

As much as I love the idea of a speculative sci-fi series that features Catholics "of the future", it would reason that believability would rest on presenting Catholic theology as the church understands it, not as dissenters do.

Its difficult to imagine Catholics and the Catholic Church en masse being pro-genetic manipulation of humans, pro-time travel, etc.

Again, I flipped through it and did not read in detail. I could have misread, but that was my initial impression.

Yeah, everything you had a problem with, you either misread or was resolved later in the book.

I'm not a big believer in 'single position' storytelling. I like to incorporate both sides of most issues - i.e. I like to write things that ask questions not answer them...

...So, PAX ROMANA isn't anti-catholic or pro-catholic, but dances around both positions.

Regardless, it doesn't sound like something you would be much interested in anyway, but you might want to check out RED MASS for MARS when it comes out - might be more what you're looking for in your entertainment.

Anyone got any other questions?

[MadBastard]

So, PAX ROMANA isn't anti-catholic or pro-catholic, but dances around both positions.

I'm not Catholic, but regardless of whether it was intended to be, the book is anti-catholic. Some quick points:

1) Clergy who claim to serve God deliberately set out to circumvent his will (i.e. time) in order to assure their organization's paramount position
2) The men deliberately intend on betraying central tenets of their religion (non-violence)
3) They hire murderers and slavers

That's just a few examples. While they may do all of these things behind the conceit of making the world a better place, ultimately they do it in order to secure the position of their church as the most powerful organization to ever exist. These aren't good men, but the type that started the Crusades.

So every Catholic in the book, particularly those who are supposed to be representative of the religion's beliefs, are Grade A SOBs. You can argue that's realisitic if you like, but it certainly isn't a favorable view of that church.

[PamGrierOverdrive]

Quite frankly, the church itself doesn't deserve a favorable view. That's not to say that Catholics are bad people, but let's learn to separate the religious machine from the worshippers. The book isn't anti-Catholic, but it portrays the church's hierarchy as flawed humans (aren't we all?), which is completely accurate. And even if it weren't accurate, it's just fiction anyway.

[MadBastard]

Quite frankly, the church itself doesn't deserve a favorable view. That's not to say that Catholics are bad people, but let's learn to separate the religious machine from the worshippers. The book isn't anti-Catholic, but it portrays the church's hierarchy as flawed humans (aren't we all?), which is completely accurate. And even if it weren't accurate, it's just fiction anyway.

As I said, you can argue that the view of the church in the book is realisitc. However, to say that it isn't pro or anti-Catholic is a stack of manure. It casts the that church into a decidely negative light. I mean, it's one thing to sin in hubris and say, "Let's go back and fix all those pesky mistakes." It's quite another to hire an army, then give them nuclear weapons and demand the head of Muhammad. Even if you separate the religious machine from the worshippers, all of the worshippers in the book are Grade A SOBs.

[PamGrierOverdrive]

It's portraying a hypothetical situation in a science fiction context. To label it as anti-Catholic is like labeling Alien as anti-capitalist because the film's major corporation, Weyland-Yutani, is run by deceitful pricks.

[MadBastard]

It's portraying a hypothetical situation in a science fiction context. To label it as anti-Catholic is like labeling Alien as anti-capitalist because the film's major corporation, Weyland-Yutani, is run by deceitful pricks.

Well, there you go. I always assumed that Alien (and many other entertaining things) are anti-capitalist because of there's always "the big bad corporation" or some version of that. Your logic is like saying that "Red Dawn" wasn't anti-communist because Konstantin Chernenko was just one bad seed in the Soviet Union.

[dtjunkie]

I'm not Catholic, but regardless of whether it was intended to be, the book is anti-catholic. Some quick points:

1) Clergy who claim to serve God deliberately set out to circumvent his will (i.e. time) in order to assure their organization's paramount position
2) The men deliberately intend on betraying central tenets of their religion (non-violence)
3) They hire murderers and slavers

That's just a few examples. While they may do all of these things behind the conceit of making the world a better place, ultimately they do it in order to secure the position of their church as the most powerful organization to ever exist. These aren't good men, but the type that started the Crusades.

So every Catholic in the book, particularly those who are supposed to be representative of the religion's beliefs, are Grade A SOBs. You can argue that's realisitic if you like, but it certainly isn't a favorable view of that church.

Honestly, all of the major religions at some point in their history have fallen victim to your 1-3. Pax Romana could have easily been written about Muslims going back in time to defeat Charles Martel or Jews going back to the time of King Solomon and other than the setting many story elements would have been the same. As Hickman stated in the book it's not about Catholicism per se it's about sociology.

[MadBastard]

Honestly, all of the major religions at some point in their history have fallen victim to your 1-3. Pax Romana could have easily been written about Muslims going back in time to defeat Charles Martel or Jews going back to the time of King Solomon and other than the setting many story elements would have been the same. As Hickman stated in the book it's not about Catholicism per se it's about sociology.

I couldn't agree more. In fact, you could probably extend this to all human organizations that have achieved some great level of power - they've all made similar mistakes. In that regard, it is absolutely about sociology. However, to pick a specific organization, put it into this light and then say, "Well, I'm not trying to say anything negative about anybody," is nothing but a platitude.

[PamGrierOverdrive]

I know nobody in this thread is trying to bad-mouth a movie featuring Patrick Swayze. Lord, tell me it isn't so.

[MadBastard]

I know nobody in this thread is trying to bad-mouth a movie featuring Patrick Swayze. Lord, tell me it isn't so.

I damn near fell out of chair laughing when I read this.

[dtjunkie]

Oh and to comment on the actual issue:

I loved it.

When I first opened the book I had a weird reaction. It was so unlike the majority of funny books I have read that it took me a few moments to adjust to the lack of panels and such. I immediately thought, "Whoa this is just like that Mummy story back in Legion of Monsters" (without knowing they were by the same guy). The first time through The Mummy it was hard my me to read it. It was kinda like when you pick up a drink that you expect is iced tea but turns out to be a soft drink. I opened the book thinking it was gonna be a typical comic book, but when I opened it I thought Whoa! What the hell is this? But when I got my bearings I thought The Mummy was an awesome story and that way of telling it was a great change of pace.

Pax Romana #1 was a work of art. The layouts were stunning and the story telling method was great. Seriously, don't worry about the number of words. We're big boys we can handle it. I don't mind the comic taking me more than 5 minutes to read through it.

I love the little details throughout and I have some questions:

1.)It seemed the Cardinal Pelle was building his own private army in addition to the one General Chase built when he was recruiting Lowe and Kim and told them they only reported to him. Is this the case?

2.)So some of the mercs have taken off already. Perhaps to go found the Kingdom of Africa?

3.)So we arrive the day that Constantine received his vision and the day before the Battle of the Milvian Bridge. General Chase seemed to be in the dark about the mission objectives and he shot up the Cardinal pretty quick. Is General Chase aware of the significance of the date?

[Jonathan Hickman]

However, to pick a specific organization, put it into this light and then say, "Well, I'm not trying to say anything negative about anybody," is nothing but a platitude.

I didn't say that - I said I don't take a position. I'll always have negative (as well as positive) stuff to say.

All the religion stuff is wrapped up 5 pages into issue #2, but to simplify: Pope Pius XIII - the last good Catholic, Cardinal Pelle - the last bad Catholic.

[Jonathan Hickman]

1.)It seemed the Cardinal Pelle was building his own private army in addition to the one General Chase built when he was recruiting Lowe and Kim and told them they only reported to him. Is this the case?

2.)So some of the mercs have taken off already. Perhaps to go found the Kingdom of Africa?

3.)So we arrive the day that Constantine received his vision and the day before the Battle of the Milvian Bridge. General Chase seemed to be in the dark about the mission objectives and he shot up the Cardinal pretty quick. Is General Chase aware of the significance of the date?

1. No comment
2. Nope
3. Of course.

[MadBastard]

I didn't say that - I said I don't take a position. I'll always have negative (as well as positive) stuff to say.

And I'm saying that's weak sauce. There's next to no positive commentary on the catholic church in this book. If you are going to put up a story that's this provocative and this one-sided, best to have that position handy close at hand.


All the religion stuff is wrapped up 5 pages into issue #2, but to simplify: Pope Pius XIII - the last good Catholic, Cardinal Pelle - the last bad Catholic.

So the last good Catholic betrayed all of the central tenets of his religion, armed a group of men with nuclear weapons and sent them into the past in order to slaughter untold numbers for the "betterment of mankind"? Wow, Pelle must be one mean bastard.

[dtjunkie]

You have to place the actions of the Pope in the context of what is happening in his world. In his world, Islam had overran Europe and basically Catholicism was dying out. His decision to take these actions to allow Catholicism to survive are not only consistent with actions in the past (Spanish Inquisition, Crusades) but also are probably justified by Catholic doctrine (open up your Catechism to the Just War section)

Regardless, I don't think Mark Twain is racist because he had Huckleberry Finn use racial slurs, and I don't think Pax Romana is anti-Catholic because a Pope makes some tough choices in the face of what he would consider an apocalyptic future for his Church.

And as someone who was raised Catholic and went through 16 years of Catholic school I can say that 1.)I personally wasn't offended and 2.)found the story not all that far fetched based on what I know of the historical past and the conditions of the future the Black Pope lived in as explained by the Gene Pope

[Jonathan Hickman]

And I'm saying that's weak sauce. There's next to no positive commentary on the catholic church in this book. If you are going to put up a story that's this provocative and this one-sided, best to have that position handy close at hand.

Meh. You're forgetting that the entire premise at the beginning of the book is that the Chruch is faced with Sophie's' choice: cease to exist or change history.


So the last good Catholic betrayed all of the central tenets of his religion, armed a group of men with nuclear weapons and sent them into the past in order to slaughter untold numbers for the "betterment of mankind"? Wow, Pelle must be one mean bastard.

This isn't 'today's church.' You would agree that central tenets have proven to be malliable over time, right?

And the argument is 'a lesser evil for a greater good' - and from there on to sociology. Again, it's not a book about religion, it's just used to pick a place, pick a time. It could have been anyplace or time, I was just trying to set up and use something of a logic system.

You don't have to like it. It's no big deal... but c'mon, weak sauce? :)

[Jonathan Hickman]

You have to place the actions of the Pope in the context of what is happening in his world. In his world, Islam had overran Europe and basically Catholicism was dying out. His decision to take these actions to allow Catholicism to survive are not only consistent with actions in the past (Spanish Inquisition, Crusades) but also are probably justified by Catholic doctrine (open up your Catechism to the Just War section)

Regardless, I don't think Mark Twain is racist because he had Huckleberry Finn use racial slurs, and I don't think Pax Romana is anti-Catholic because a Pope makes some tough choices in the face of what he would consider an apocalyptic future for his Church.

And as someone who was raised Catholic and went through 16 years of Catholic school I can say that 1.)I personally wasn't offended and 2.)found the story not all that far fetched based on what I know of the historical past and the conditions of the future the Black Pope lived in as explained by the Gene Pope

Catholic guilt ;)

And glad you liked it.

[dtjunkie]

1. No comment
2. Nope
3. Of course.

Hmmm.

That kind of makes me wonder something. Cardinal Pelle is dead right? I mean those enhancement treatments wouldn't have allowed him to survive the gunshot wounds right?

[dtjunkie]

Catholic guilt ;)


ahahaha you ain't kidding.

[Winslow]

Catholic guilt ;)

And glad you liked it.

Nah, he's just upset about losing religious arguments on the Crossgen Boards five years ago.

Is that you dark turkey? :D

[PamGrierOverdrive]

Any plans to contact Marvel for a Pax Romana / Spider-Man crossover? Maybe the Pope could send a unit back in time to blow up Mary Jane with some nukes before she marries Peter.

[Jonathan Hickman]

Any plans to contact Marvel for a Pax Romana / Spider-Man crossover? Maybe the Pope could send a unit back in time to blow up Mary Jane with some nukes before she marries Peter.

!!MAGIC!!


/

[Jonathan Hickman]

Any other questions while I'm here...?

[dtjunkie]

Any other questions while I'm here...?

Yea! Is Cardinal Pelle Uncle Ben dead or is he more like Jean Grey dead?

[dtjunkie]

Nah, he's just upset about losing religious arguments on the Crossgen Boards five years ago.

Is that you dark turkey? :D

Embrace Feabie and you begin to understand the imperfection in us all!

;)

[Jonathan Hickman]

Yea! Is Cardinal Pelle Uncle Ben dead or is he more like Jean Grey dead?

He's completely dead.

[dtjunkie]

Oh and I tried to register at the message board linked at www.pronea.com but the validation e-mail never arrived. Do you know if that board has an issue with @hotmail.com accounts?

[dtjunkie]

And finally, do you sell any of your original artwork?

[Jonathan Hickman]

Oh and I tried to register at the message board linked at www.pronea.com but the validation e-mail never arrived. Do you know if that board has an issue with @hotmail.com accounts?

It's just the IMAGE COMICS boards image bboards (http://www.imagecomics.com/messageboard/).

Go there and try to sign in or send the supermods an email. Shouldn't be a problem - plenty of other people post using hotmail.

[Jonathan Hickman]

And finally, do you sell any of your original artwork?

Yeah, Pronea store will be up by the end of the month.

[MadBastard]

Meh. You're forgetting that the entire premise at the beginning of the book is that the Chruch is faced with Sophie's' choice: cease to exist or change history.

This isn't 'today's church.' You would agree that central tenets have proven to be malliable over time, right?

And the argument is 'a lesser evil for a greater good' - and from there on to sociology. Again, it's not a book about religion, it's just used to pick a place, pick a time. It could have been anyplace or time, I was just trying to set up and use something of a logic system.

You don't have to like it. It's no big deal... but c'mon, weak sauce? :)

Put all the trappings on it you want, but the story twists religion and sociology together (can you seperate the two?) and you've obviously done some pretty exhaustive research. So after putting all this together, then to say that you don't have a position (when I'm betting in your heart of heart's you do) is...weak sauce.

[dtjunkie]

Yeah, Pronea store will be up by the end of the month.

Awesome. Looking forward to it.

[Jonathan Hickman]

Put all the trappings on it you want, but the story twists religion and sociology together (can you seperate the two?) and you've obviously done some pretty exhaustive research. So after putting all this together, then to say that you don't have a position (when I'm betting in your heart of heart's you do) is...weak sauce.

Of course I have an opinion (never said I didn't), I just don't take a position.

That's didactic writing and I'm completely and totally against it. There are plenty of other writers who disagree with me on that(you may be one), but for me it's the golden rule

I think that the only cure for you at this point is going to be issue #2. Okay, gotta run... I'll check back later.

[PamGrierOverdrive]

You're spending an awful lot of time debating on message boards. Those issues of Pax Romana better not end up being late, Hickman. :mad:

[MadBastard]

Of course I have an opinion (never said I didn't), I just don't take a position.

That's didactic writing and I'm completely and totally against it. There are plenty of other writers who disagree with me on that(you may be one), but for me it's the golden rule

I think that the only cure for you at this point is going to be issue #2. Okay, gotta run... I'll check back later.

So you've got an opinion but aren't willing to take a position? Well, I suppose that says quite a bit. On the other hand, I had to look up didactic, so I suppose that says something as well.

[michaeljsmith]

JH - I have given you props on the Image board but I figure if you are going to take the time to hit all of the boards then I am going to take the time to once again thank you for Pax. This book is incredible.

I am looking forward to Red Mass and Transhuman - you have me hooked. Not that I am trying to be a little suck up but as you can tell from the signature block I am pimping your book.

Keep up the work and look forward to Issue #2 in a couple of weeks.

[will_butler]

Mr. Hickman,

After reading The Nightly News and issue #1 of Pax Romana, I've added everything with your name on it to my pull list at the LCS. The only other writer I've done that for is Warren Ellis. Keep it up.

Will

[Jonathan Hickman]

Thanks guys...!

[matthewaos]

Oh, what a disaster!!!!!!

I couldn't order Pax Romana at the time the previews came out, cause of money problems (the LCS owner didn't let me order anything due to this). I went to two comic shops to find it and no one had it... I hope it will be reprinted in TPB or better yet HC. Please...???

I though Hickman said somewhere he is talking with marvel for a DD project. I wonder how he could fit in a publisher owned character... this should be interesting. Can't wait for Red Mass.

[AndyinColor]

Heard about this comic and since it was a slow week for me in general, I decided to give it a try. Heard it was ancient Rome and special forces. Boss.

Issue came in today and was the first thing I read when I got home. I finished, flipped back to the intro and went through it again, appreciating the art and loving the intricate weaving of story-line.

It is a very unique premise and the alternate-timeline page had to be my favorite. The very idea of the Catholic Church working to preserve itself by any means was a trip and I wonder more about the creation of this universe. The final page, saying it is to be read not as a religious piece, I think is an important idea so that reviews are not marked with that to start.

More than happy to have this on my pull and it will be an issue I look forward to rereading when issue two is released.

-AndyinColor

p.s. I wonder about the page with the Pope and the Scientists after they sent the group back in time. With an alternate history, would that frame be possible or is it on the basis that it would create an alternate timeline. (Sorry to ask about that, just curious)

[AndyinColor]

Haha, ok ... so I didn't read the previous pages before I made my post.

1. Haven't read NIGHTLY NEWS at all. Will ask my comic shop about it next time I am in there.
2. I am happy that this was word-thick. Finally the ability to have quite a bit happen in an issue... I feel that after the year 2000, comics are pictures with title pages.
3. Raised Catholic I didn't see that there were terrible anti-Catholic sentiments. I think that the beginning religion that sent people back was irrelevant. With its roots in Rome and such a long history that most people who have taken European-history have a working knowledge of, the Catholic Church was an easy jumping-off point.
4. Re: dtjunkie... good catch with the Battle of the Milvian Bridge. My roommate caught that too... so nice timing. (For others -- look it up on Wiki if you need to know more. Big implications as far as who-won-and-why on Catholic Religion).
5. A cover that made me want to buy haha.
6. Question: Roughly how many people made it back in time? And are they all under control of the General then?
7. Only negative: The "Helvetica" font used inside the boxes seems a bit out of place for me. Got used to it by the end and it was effective for the full-page text... but something more hand-done to integrate with the page styles would have been better.

-AndyinColor

[MrPrimeMinister]

The way I read it, it's not a matter of supporting or opposing the Catholic church, it's about what a powerful organization will do to try to stay in power. It also plays with the idea of what is right and whether we have rights to our own past.

Other than that I liked the art and design of the issue, especially the timeline page. I'm not a huge fan of the team being composed of what seems to me to be a bunch of psychos and zealots, but I guess you gotta generate conflict somehow. Here's to hoping this continues to read strongly and not turn into Cadillacs and Dinosaurs!

[Syntaxosaurus]

When will #2 come out?

[MadBastard]

The way I read it, it's not a matter of supporting or opposing the Catholic church, it's about what a powerful organization will do to try to stay in power. It also plays with the idea of what is right and whether we have rights to our own past.

So it seems most of us can agree that the story is about the head folks at the Catholic Church abandoning nearly all of their own beliefs and teachings to employ murderers and slavers in order to preserve its own existence and, even better, secure its place as the complete power.

But hey, it's not anti-Catholic. Sorry, you can't dance around the third rail that is religion and then say, "Well, the books not about religion." You either believe that, yes, this is what the church would do in this situation or you don't and that says a lot about how you feel about that organization.

[vazel]

I am really enjoying this series so far. It feels like I'm in for a ride. And as a Catholic I'm not offended.
So it seems most of us can agree that the story is about the head folks at the Catholic Church abandoning nearly all of their own beliefs and teachings to employ murderers and slavers in order to preserve its own existence and, even better, secure its place as the complete power.

But hey, it's not anti-Catholic. Sorry, you can't dance around the third rail that is religion and then say, "Well, the books not about religion." You either believe that, yes, this is what the church would do in this situation or you don't and that says a lot about how you feel about that organization.lol someone keep Endymion and Rise of Endymion away from this guy.

[MadBastard]

lol someone keep Endymion and Rise of Endymion away from this guy.

Too late! I've already read them!! Bwahahahahahaha!

[AndyinColor]

Just bought THE NIGHTLY NEWS trade paperback today after enjoying Pax so much.

Wow.

I must say that Hickman is bringing about an evolution in comics. It was like nothing that I have read before and I plan on recommending it to everyone. About halfway done with the entire trade just today. Not only am I happy to finish the entire story and consume it as quickly as possible, but for the first time in a while, I am excited for a reread.

Wonderful job in all that you do Hickman.

-AndyinColor

[vazel]

Yea I think I'm going to start following Hickman's work like I do with Ed Brubaker I'm really loving his stuff.

[matthewaos]

Just bought THE NIGHTLY NEWS trade paperback today after enjoying Pax so much.

Wow.

I must say that Hickman is bringing about an evolution in comics. It was like nothing that I have read before and I plan on recommending it to everyone. About halfway done with the entire trade just today. Not only am I happy to finish the entire story and consume it as quickly as possible, but for the first time in a while, I am excited for a reread.

Wonderful job in all that you do Hickman.

-AndyinColor

I was the only one in a company of four guys buying Nightly news. I was so exited and promoted so much to my friends that everyone got Pax Romana except me...:( Please, I am dying for a TPB!!!

[michaeljsmith]

I am so looking forward to Pax #2 (where is it?) and am geeked to see others in the same boat. Everyone you talk to loves it but it amazed me when you look at the sales numbers for December it was amazingly low. I hate to see 9 issues of Countdown in the top 20 and something as amazing as Pax so far down... unreal.

As for the other Hickmand projects - Transhuman is in March and then Red Mass in May (pushed back - preorder it so you don't miss). Hickman is kicking this stuff out like a machine. He is also releasing a regular title called PLUS but it will not be monthly (though I am not sure when so Jonathon when you catch this please update).

Just add Hickman to your pull list as you can't go wrong!

[pigkiller]

So it seems most of us can agree that the story is about the head folks at the Catholic Church abandoning nearly all of their own beliefs and teachings to employ murderers and slavers in order to preserve its own existence and, even better, secure its place as the complete power.

But hey, it's not anti-Catholic. Sorry, you can't dance around the third rail that is religion and then say, "Well, the books not about religion." You either believe that, yes, this is what the church would do in this situation or you don't and that says a lot about how you feel about that organization.

I'm sorry.

A fictional pope is forced to decide between letting his religion die out or sending people back in time to strengthen the church's position.

Maybe he didn't pick the best dudes to send back in time, but I fail to see how this is a super-negative depiction of the church. He is willing to damn himself to save the souls of mankind.

I am not a religious man, but that seems like a pretty noble and selfless act. I like him better than any of the historical popes I've read about.

[MadBastard]

A fictional pope is forced to decide between letting his religion die out or sending people back in time to strengthen the church's position.

Maybe he didn't pick the best dudes to send back in time, but I fail to see how this is a super-negative depiction of the church. He is willing to damn himself to save the souls of mankind.

In a round about way, Hickman has mentioned that this is the justification that the pope in the story is probably using. Although I don't recall reading it from the text, you could certainly infer that. But mass murder is mass murder. Could you argue that by committing such a horrible sin he's tainting the church for all time? Those that follow in the time travellers' foot steps will continue to use violence to maintain their grip on power, something that the real church has only stopped doing in the last century or so. Which, for a religion that has non-violence as one its central tenants, is probably a good thing.


I am not a religious man, but that seems like a pretty noble and selfless act. I like him better than any of the historical popes I've read about.

Do you think that if faced with the same choice Pope Benedict would choose differently? Do you think he would choose differently sans the emininent death of his religion?

[pigkiller]

In a round about way, Hickman has mentioned that this is the justification that the pope in the story is probably using. Although I don't recall reading it from the text, you could certainly infer that. But mass murder is mass murder. Could you argue that by committing such a horrible sin he's tainting the church for all time? Those that follow in the time travellers' foot steps will continue to use violence to maintain their grip on power, something that the real church has only stopped doing in the last century or so. Which, for a religion that has non-violence as one its central tenants, is probably a good thing.

You keep talking a lot about mass murder, but as far as I recall there was not any mass murder in the issue. In fact I recall 1 singular murder, which was not planned by the church.




Do you think that if faced with the same choice Pope Benedict would choose differently? Do you think he would choose differently sans the emininent death of his religion?


Okay, so if you think that this is what the actual pope would do then why do you think it is such a negative portrayal?

[MadBastard]

You keep talking a lot about mass murder, but as far as I recall there was not any mass murder in the issue. In fact I recall 1 singular murder, which was not planned by the church.

Just what exactly do you think was the intention of the pope and cardinals when they equipped their mercenary army with nukes?


Okay, so if you think that this is what the actual pope would do then why do you think it is such a negative portrayal?

I didn't say that, I posed a question. It's the elephant in the room that no one's talking about. However, if you'd like my answer to it, yes I think if presented with the opportunity the current Church leadership would take it. However, I would like to think that after finally shedding it's bloody tendencies after millennium of conversion by the sword, the church would figure out a better, non-violent way to influence the past.

The idea presented in the book is that the time they are travelling back to is so violent in and of itself, that attempting to find a non-violent solution is impossible. However, can you honestly say that the church's willingness to resort to incredible levels of violence (see nuke comment above) isn't a negative portrayal?

[LungerTony]

I really like the idea and story of this book. The art is a bit unorthodox to me, but it is fine.

I didn't find the portrayal of the Church in the book overtly negative - I think it was like Hickman stated on the first page. (I am Catholic)
The Catholic Church (as an institution, not a religion!) has historically shown a willingness to commit sin for the greater good. (Let's be real here, so does every other religion that faces a serious grave struggle)

MadBastard is stuck on the nuke(s). As far as I read, they weren't used, and nor was it made clear what they were for beyond the obvious of blowing shizit up.
I got the impression the nukes were a fail-safe, in case the new civilization they were creating became by endangered by Mongols, Turks, or some other marauding power that will show up.
Anyway, I was sad Pelle died for some reason. Clergymen always get killed in fiction stories...unless its Battle Pope.

I think stupid and naive to think you can travel to the past and dramatically shift human civilization without utilizing or being prepared for violence.
In the book, they called it available 'police force' or something.

[MadBastard]

I think stupid and naive to think you can travel to the past and dramatically shift human civilization without utilizing or being prepared for violence.
In the book, they called it available 'police force' or something.

So let me get this straight; all the Catholics in the crowd believe that their church would be willing to go back to its old ways and hire an army to secure it's place in history while I'm stupid and naive for feeling that they might actually try to stick to their principals?

You're right, Mr. Hickman, this book isn't anti-Catholic at all. Apparently, it's just dead on.

[LungerTony]

So let me get this straight; all the Catholics in the crowd believe that their church would be willing to go back to its old ways and hire an army to secure it's place in history while I'm stupid and naive for feeling that they might actually try to stick to their principals?

You're right, Mr. Hickman, this book isn't anti-Catholic at all. Apparently, it's just dead on.

Though I made it clear I was a Catholic, I wasn't pretending to believe that my opinions represented all Catholics everywhere.
So don't confuse yourself and think they are designed for that.
The overwhelming and sole factor in Christianity nor Catholicism isn't strictly passivism and non-violence at the very expense of faith and the salvation of peoples' souls.
You are confused and think maintaining non-violence at the expense of everything else is the most important principle to Catholicism, or Christianity. And that's why your having a really difficult time with Pax Romana.

[J.R. LeMar]

Not crazy about the art, but it's an excellent premise. But then I'm a sucker for a good time travel story. I'll likely pick this up in the trade.

[michaeljsmith]

So let me get this straight; all the Catholics in the crowd believe that their church would be willing to go back to its old ways and hire an army to secure it's place in history while I'm stupid and naive for feeling that they might actually try to stick to their principals?

You're right, Mr. Hickman, this book isn't anti-Catholic at all. Apparently, it's just dead on.

Not only is it anti-Catholic, but it is also anti-white, and anti-old person too. Darn you J. Hickman you hate the entire world.

[MadBastard]

Though I made it clear I was a Catholic, I wasn't pretending to believe that my opinions represented all Catholics everywhere.

While it's fascinating that you think I would ascribe your opinion to Catholics everywhere, that's not the case. If you read back you'll find that the majority of people in this thread who identify themselves as Catholic seem to agree that with the idea that organization would be willing to go back to its bloody old ways, but somehow that doesn't taint the religion.


The overwhelming and sole factor in Christianity nor Catholicism isn't strictly passivism and non-violence at the very expense of faith and the salvation of peoples' souls.
You are confused and think maintaining non-violence at the expense of everything else is the most important principle to Catholicism, or Christianity. And that's why your having a really difficult time with Pax Romana.

I'm sorry, I had you confused with that other Catholicism that was founded by that Jesus guy. I didn't realize you belonged to the branch that sees massive bloodshed as an acceptable means of saving folks' souls.

Pay attention, now. This is how we use religion to justify war.

[LungerTony]

Madbastard. Wake up. Do you actually know about about Catholicism or the history of the Roman Catholic Church? Because you act like some massive authority and criticize everyone who disagrees with you, which according to you is every Catholic poster on this thread, as though they are stupid for thinking differently.
Stop twisting my words too. I didn't say massive bloodshed was fine to save peoples' souls. I said non-violence is not the number one precept of Catholicism that in itself overrides everything else - the same can be said for Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. You have an image in your head that makes a Christian a complete hypocrite if they ever resort to violence for anything at all.
If you have beef with Catholicism, go to some white supremacist website or something and take it there.

Pay attention yourself. It's a fictional comic. And noone is using Catholicism or Christianity to justify war. You have an unrealistic representation of the Church in your mind or something, which makes you compeletly incapable of accepting and finding entertainment in Pax Romana. If you don't like it, you don't have to buy it, and you don't have to crusade for "anti-Catholic" representation in the Pax Romana comic because noone seems to care about it, or even agree with you.

[MadBastard]

Pay attention yourself. It's a fictional comic. And noone is using Catholicism or Christianity to justify war.

You mean aside from the people in the comic?

[Jonathan Hickman]

I'm posting this a couple of places, so if you've seen this somewhere else today... sorry, but I wanted as many people who like PAX to have a heads up.

Oh, and if you haven't read issue 1, you can read it here free to see what we're talking about:
http://www.pronea.com/samples/PR1sample.html

Issue 1 of PAX was over printed by 35 percent and sold out. Because of the way that stores order copies, the initial orders for issue 2 were around 20 percent less than the initial orders for issue 1, meaning that orders are collectively over 40 percent lower - and Image is not going to overprint that much on a second issue.

So this is a heads up to let you know that if you want it, get it early because next week they're probably going to be scarce.

In other news, TRANSHUMAN is shipping in a couple weeks - here's a preview of that if you want to check it out. (1.2MB PDF - right click download...etc)
http://www.pronea.com/samples/TH1_preview.pdf

I'll be around online today - if you have questions let me know and I'll try my best to answer promptly.

[FlexMentallo]

Thanks for making the first issue of Pax Romana free online, Jonathan Hickman.

My shop totally dropped the ball on pulling it for me and I've been having a hell of a time finding a copy.

[Solarwaves]

Just wanted to add in my 2 cents. I liked the concept - Catholic Church going back in time to prevent the fall of the roman empire - so much that I had the guy at the comic book store add Pax Romana to my list even before issue 1 was out, and before he had even heard of it.
The debate about whether thge Catholic Church would even contemplate doing this has been an interesting one. I'm not catholic myself and not religious overall, so I don't know much about catholicism except for what I read in the news online. From what I've read the church sounds a little
concerned about falling birthrates and church attendance in western europe.

Meanwhile, immigration into western europe continues, some of it being from muslim countries. Look at what's been happening in France. I'm not zenophobic, I'm just stating the trends as I read them. If you take the current events now and extrapolate them forward, assuming that current trends continue, and there's no way to know if they will or won't, and take the church's concern now and kick it up a notch, then it seems like they might contemplate this.

In Pax I did get the impression that the pope had deep misgivings about doing this, but he had people around him trying to convince him otherwise and go behind his back to orchestrate the whole thing.

[Erwin Heinek]

that other Catholicism that was founded by that Jesus guy.

I'm pretty certain that He didn't found any of the religious denominations that feature Him.

[michaeljsmith]

I'm posting this a couple of places, so if you've seen this somewhere else today... sorry, but I wanted as many people who like PAX to have a heads up.

Oh, and if you haven't read issue 1, you can read it here free to see what we're talking about:
http://www.pronea.com/samples/PR1sample.html

Issue 1 of PAX was over printed by 35 percent and sold out. Because of the way that stores order copies, the initial orders for issue 2 were around 20 percent less than the initial orders for issue 1, meaning that orders are collectively over 40 percent lower - and Image is not going to overprint that much on a second issue.

So this is a heads up to let you know that if you want it, get it early because next week they're probably going to be scarce.

In other news, TRANSHUMAN is shipping in a couple weeks - here's a preview of that if you want to check it out. (1.2MB PDF - right click download...etc)
http://www.pronea.com/samples/TH1_preview.pdf

I'll be around online today - if you have questions let me know and I'll try my best to answer promptly.

Thanks JH - I am putting this out there. I am copying the link to a couple of the odd boards that I post on regularly and I am also pimping the Transhuman banner on Newsarama. Love your work and off to the comic book shop to get Pax #2.

[vazel]

Meanwhile, immigration into western europe continues, some of it being from muslim countries. Look at what's been happening in France. I'm not zenophobic, I'm just stating the trends as I read them. If you take the current events now and extrapolate them forward, assuming that current trends continue, and there's no way to know if they will or won't, and take the church's concern now and kick it up a notch, then it seems like they might contemplate this.
There was a bruhaha a while back from a bishop in Europe calling Muslims a threat to Christian Europe and how Europeans had to have more babies.

[MadBastard]

I'm pretty certain that He didn't found any of the religious denominations that feature Him.

First off, that's a great icon you've got.

At some point, Jesus looks at Peter the disciple and tells him, "You'll be the Rock of my church." (Not an exact quote.) Most Catholic scholars consider that to be the moment of the church's foundation by the decree of Christ.

[Solarwaves]

There was a bruhaha a while back from a bishop in Europe calling Muslims a threat to Christian Europe and how Europeans had to have more babies.
That's interesting, I hadn't heard about that. I've read news articles that mention the bruhaha that the pope caused among Muslims when he did that lecture in germany. It's true that he was quoting someone else, but I wonder if he realized the impact it would have.

Also, I misspelled xenophobic.