Black Panther #33 *Spoilers*

[drwho]

Hudlin must really like alienating many of his readers. After thinking we saw a change in his plots and style of writing the man pulls the race card again. And it is pretty obvious in this issue. I am actually surprised the Black Panthers don't sue Marvel for allowing him to use the name. I usually am pretty neutral, but when it comes to Hudlin showing the Skrulls as the white people as being bad, and the Skrulls that are the black people wanting peace and a revolution and being "good". Where are Marvel's editors? The Black Panthers can't have white members? Storm meets the Black Skrulls and the other members fight monsters in the arena. This issue just gets me mad and highlights the complaints people have on Hudlin as a writer.. More arena fighting and not much happens except the race card getting pulled here. Worst issue in awhile. I can't wait for this storyline to end. Such a turn off I'm not even buying the next issue.

[The Cool Thatguy]

I don't think anyone's going to be too terribly surprised by a poorly written, race baiting issue penned by Hudlin. It's all but his trademark by now.

[Alphaxman]

Once I read this issue I knew it would bring up bad blood about race. The same thing is happening with the Great Debaters movie. By showing mostly white characters as the “bad” guys it somehow feels to some as “reverse” racism even thou there are black characters that are shown as “bad guys”. These Skrulls are only representation of how they saw Earth during the Civil Rights era. They were spelt between living their lives they way they been doing by emulates 1930s Chicago gangsters (who were all white) and by something new they discovered decades later. They saw how blacks were trying to gain respect and equality thru non violence. But the “Gangsters” saw them a treat so the “black” Skrulls adopted the more radical thinking of Malcolm X. To protect themselves by any means necessary.

You can’t really look at it as black against white because the Skrulls didn’t go though everything we went though. It is basically a Gangster mentality vs. something they perceive as peaceful.

As you can see the reason there are no “white” Skrulls with the Black Panthers of Uptown is because they are shape shifters. If a “white” Skrull comes to believe in the “black” Skrulls ideals then most likely they would “become” a black Skrull.

Besides, there were two too three black Skrulls that are working with the Gangster Skrulls. And we haven’t seen other “white” Skrulls that not in the Gangster life style to judge if all of them are bad (witch I doubt).

This is not some alternate universe were there real humans in witch whites are bad and blacks are good. This is a Skrull world where a lot of things are just surface representations.

I happen to like this arch and I’m glad that someone remembered this Skrull planet with all this Skrull invasion mess going around.

[XPac]

I don't think anyone's going to be too terribly surprised by a poorly written, race baiting issue penned by Hudlin. It's all but his trademark by now.

That's exactly it... by this point, it's a trademark. It's like Cho sticking T&A in a story... even if there's actually an acceptable story reason for it to be in there, the fact that it basically ALWAYS is becomes noticable enough on it's own.

If you're a reader you're basically at the "take it or leave it" point because that's what you're always going to get from Hudlin writing this book.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Once I read this issue I knew it would bring up bad blood about race. The same thing is happening with the Great Debaters movie. By showing mostly white characters as the “bad” guys it somehow feels to some as “reverse” racism even thou there are black characters that are shown as “bad guys”. These Skrulls are only representation of how they saw Earth during the Civil Rights era. They were spelt between living their lives they way they been doing by emulates 1930s Chicago gangsters (who were all white) and by something new they discovered decades later. They saw how blacks were trying to gain respect and equality thru non violence. But the “Gangsters” saw them a treat so the “black” Skrulls adopted the more radical thinking of Malcolm X. To protect themselves by any means necessary.

Honestly? The main complaint is that this is Hudlin's trademark, him poorly addressing racial issues. Were this arc in a vacuum, I doubt it would raise as many concerns. Yes, people would complain, but that's the nature of the 'net.

But Hudlin likes to make a point to address racial topics in a poor manner. The best examples, but not only, would be his outdated Cold War symbolism in the first arc, and the thinly veiled Arafat (who was dead at the time) and Saddam (who was captured) parodies who sent Arabian Knight after T'Challa.

So with due respect, I must disagree with your assessment of depth and nuance that you attribute to Hudlin's issue. It's not post modern. It's just that bad.

[Alphaxman]

Honestly? The main complaint is that this is Hudlin's trademark, him poorly addressing racial issues. Were this arc in a vacuum, I doubt it would raise as many concerns. Yes, people would complain, but that's the nature of the 'net.

But Hudlin likes to make a point to address racial topics in a poor manner. The best examples, but not only, would be his outdated Cold War symbolism in the first arc, and the thinly veiled Arafat (who was dead at the time) and Saddam (who was captured) parodies who sent Arabian Knight after T'Challa.

So with due respect, I must disagree with your assessment of depth and nuance that you attribute to Hudlin's issue. It's not post modern. It's just that bad.

But how deep can they really get in this kind of story? They are not really humans that share American history about race. They are Skrulls who only see the surface of what they are trying to emulate. I think people are trying to get something profound about race where these characters can’t possible understand.

It reminds me of an arch that Alan Davis wrote back in the X-Men. They had a whole moon dedicated to emulating Earth’s superheroes. They were closer on heroes like the Fantastic Four and the Avengers because they had direct dealings with them, and the media portrayed them in a positive light. But with the X-Men and Spider-man there were a lot of errors like treating them as criminals.

All the “black” Skrull are perceived as good guys is because that how the Skrull saw it on American TV. They saw Black people marching peacefully and getting attacked by white police officers. Maybe once they reach the 90’s they will have “black” Skrulls pull “white” Skrulls out of their cars and beat them because of a verdict. And then their will be evil black Skrulls and evil white Skrulls.

[Post-It]

I think people are trying to get something profound about race where these characters can’t possible understand.



Dude just stop, you are being too logical.

You are ruining the beginning of another fun thread of people on these boards screaming that Hudlin portrays every white person as evil and his supporters screaming back.

Everyone ignore this man and start the shouting!! :D

[Alphaxman]

Dude just stop, you are being too logical.

You are ruining the beginning of another fun thread of people on these boards screaming that Hudlin portrays every white person as evil and his supporters screaming back.

Everyone ignore this man and start the shouting!! :D

LOL!!!

Thanks, I needed that laugh.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Dude just stop, you are being too logical.

You are ruining the beginning of another fun thread of people on these boards screaming that Hudlin portrays every white person as evil and his supporters screaming back.

Everyone ignore this man and start the shouting!! :D

I've, easily, proven Hudlin's igorance in my latest post in this thread. If you'd like to engage in true debate, I'd recommend putting forward something that instead proves his intelligence, skill as a writer or his use of nuanced symbolism to refute my points.

Or just engage in cheap shots. Your call.

But how deep can they really get in this kind of story? They are not really humans that share American history about race. They are Skrulls who only see the surface of what they are trying to emulate. I think people are trying to get something profound about race where these characters can’t possible understand.

It reminds me of an arch that Alan Davis wrote back in the X-Men. They had a whole moon dedicated to emulating Earth’s superheroes. They were closer on heroes like the Fantastic Four and the Avengers because they had direct dealings with them, and the media portrayed them in a positive light. But with the X-Men and Spider-man there were a lot of errors like treating them as criminals.

All the “black” Skrull are perceived as good guys is because that how the Skrull saw it on American TV. They saw Black people marching peacefully and getting attacked by white police officers. Maybe once they reach the 90’s they will have “black” Skrulls pull “white” Skrulls out of their cars and beat them because of a verdict. And then their will be evil black Skrulls and evil white Skrulls.

I didn't say deep. I sad poorly. They're two different things. Were this story played up for craziness, it'd be okay. But Hudlin plays this story straight.

As for the rest of your statement, it really makes no sense logically. The Skrull world in question is a recreation of the Prohibition Era. That was in the 1920s and ended before WW2. The Civil Rights era came after WW2, largely in the 50s and 60s, IIRC. Hell, MLK was born in 1929. They're two different eras, seperated by decades and ideals that simply don't mesh. And you'd think anyone who graduated High School would know that.

[Alphaxman]

I've, easily, proven Hudlin's igorance in my latest post in this thread. If you'd like to engage in true debate, I'd recommend putting forward something that instead proves his intelligence, skill as a writer or his use of nuanced symbolism to refute my points.

Or just engage in cheap shots. Your call.

How can it be igorance when the characters he's dealing with are not black or white? They are Skrulls. The only humans are BK, Ororo, Ben, and Johnny. And none of them made a statement about race in this arch.
The only thing Storm said that they were “rival cultures”. Would the issue be any different if it was the Kree who modified their cultures after two different moments in American history and one side was the pale Kree and the other the blue?

Now this is not based on you or your comments but why do some get upset when a black writer shows other blacks in a positive light and my show some white in a negative? Most times (just like in this issue) there are negative black characters and positive white characters but they are not in the principal roles so they don’t get as much “screen time”.
But most critics seem to ignore that and say: “black good/white evil. That’s bad writing.”

I really don’t think most would complain if the Mighty Avengers went up against Moses Magnum and he had a group of all black minions saying, “why are all the good guys white and the bad guys black?”

[Brian M.]

Trying to make somekind of political statement through a comic book is about as useful as doing it through a song...BONO!!!

[Alphaxman]

I didn't say deep. I sad poorly. They're two different things. Were this story played up for craziness, it'd be okay. But Hudlin plays this story straight.

As for the rest of your statement, it really makes no sense logically. The Skrull world in question is a recreation of the Prohibition Era. That was in the 1920s and ended before WW2. The Civil Rights era came after WW2, largely in the 50s and 60s, IIRC. Hell, MLK was born in 1929. They're two different eras, seperated by decades and ideals that simply don't mesh. And you'd think anyone who graduated High School would know that.

It is said in this vary issue that after the revolution Ben helped start they turned back to Earth for inspiration. And what that got was the Civil Rights movement. As you can see the Gangster Skrulls are still dress and act as if it was the 1930’s and the “Black” Skrulls act and dress like the late 1960s. It didn’t take decades to get to this point; it took only a few years Marvel time. These are Skrulls not humans from the past or some alternate reality.

[TotalWorldDomination]

Let's face it, it dosn't matter if Hudlin wants to make every issue for the rest of his run about how a villian named Prescott McWhitey III wants to restore slavery to Astro-space-colony 13 or go on to have the longest single run of a comic without a single white character till the book gets canceled. the only thing that matters is how well he writes. and he dosn't write well at all.

So lets forget about him writing race-bating issues poorly, lets center on him writing EVERYTHING poorly. The race-bating is a side-effect of him being utterly terrible at writing, not that he's terrible at writing one specific aspect of this comic.

[XPac]

Let's face it, it dosn't matter if Hudlin wants to make every issue for the rest of his run about how a villian named Prescott McWhitey III wants to restore slavery to Astro-space-colony 13 or go on to have the longest single run of a comic without a single white character till the book gets canceled. the only thing that matters is how well he writes. and he dosn't write well at all.

So lets forget about him writing race-bating issues poorly, lets center on him writing EVERYTHING poorly. The race-bating is a side-effect of him being utterly terrible at writing, not that he's terrible at writing one specific aspect of this comic.

If it was JUST bad writing, people would ignore it. But because of the race issues involved, the bad writing in annoying enough to complain about.

[TotalWorldDomination]

If it was JUST bad writing, people would ignore it. But because of the race issues involved, the bad writing in annoying enough to complain about.

ah, good point. His bad writing while race baiting IS much more annoying then just being a horrible writer.

[Alphaxman]

How is this book written poorly? This story arch is about The Fantastic Four coming to a planet run by Skrulls that emulate curtain aspects of American history. Half of their members been there before and at that time it was a white gangster Skrulls that settle their disputes by using gladiators. Thing stopped that and left. The planet went though upheaval and some Skrull waited to be different while other waited things to be the same. These Skrulls looked back to the Earth and saw something new to emulate and it happened to be black people this time. How it that bad? It’s still the FF against Gladiators but this time they have help.

Would the story be less badly written if it was white Skrulls that separated form the Gangsters because they saw Leave it to Beaver or the Donna Reed Show?


Hudlin has gotten better as a comic book writer. This story has a beginning that deals with past continuity without ignoring anything and decent characterizations from the main cast. I really do think that if the black Skrulls were regular green Skrulls, people wouldn’t have a problem.

[XPac]

Would the story be less badly written if it was white Skrulls that separated form the Gangsters because they saw Leave it to Beaver or the Donna Reed Show?

No. It would probably be less annoying, but not less badly written.

[Dagger]

It's badly written because Hudlin doesn't know how to write an engaging comic book. I feel absolutely nothing for the characters, the plot is paper thin, and the incessant need for the crossover thing to happen in this book hasn't helped matters.

[Alphaxman]

Well I’m engaged and I like the plot and how he writes Ben and Johnny and I normally hate Johnny most of the time after the 90’s. He writes BP as a strong character with not much to say but when he does speak it’s to the point. And Ben still has his bravado and likeability. I love that he calls BP T’Charlie. But I most admit that he still needs to work on his Ororo but he is getting better. But she’s no worst then over in X-Men now. She barely saying a thing because it an all Scott show now. How I miss my Storm of the 80’s. Even X-Treme Storm was better then this. :(

[XPac]

Well I’m engaged and I like the plot and how he writes Ben and Johnny and I normally hate Johnny most of the time after the 90’s. He writes BP as a strong character with not much to say but when he does speak it’s to the point. And Ben still has his bravado and likeability. I love that he calls BP T’Charlie. But I most admit that he still needs to work on his Ororo but he is getting better. But she’s no worst then over in X-Men now. She barely saying a thing because it an all Scott show now. How I miss my Storm of the 80’s. Even X-Treme Storm was better then this. :(

I agree. I miss Storm being a prominent Xmen. The X-Men in the 80's in my opinion had the coolest Storm. Why they decided to stick Cyclops back in her top spot, I'll never know.

But realistically, she's only a guest star. She can't suddenly show up and take away from the actual stars of the book. I think she can and should do more, but it's just sensible that this is Cyclops show now and not hers.

[The Cool Thatguy]

How can it be igorance when the characters he's dealing with are not black or white? They are Skrulls. The only humans are BK, Ororo, Ben, and Johnny. And none of them made a statement about race in this arch.
The only thing Storm said that they were “rival cultures”. Would the issue be any different if it was the Kree who modified their cultures after two different moments in American history and one side was the pale Kree and the other the blue?

The ignorance that I was referring to was largely in his first arc and a following story. In the first arc, he liberally mixed Cold War and colonization symbolism with modern, War on Terror symbolism. His arc was outdated by three decades, at the very least (centuries, if you wanna count Black Knight).

Hudlin again showed his ignorance when he had an Arafat and Saddam parodies working side by side, talking like muslim fanatics as they sent Arabian Knight out to kill Panther. At the time, Arafat had died, and Saddam was captured, making them non factors as far as current Middle East leaders go. Compound that with the fact that neither were all that religious by in large (Saddam was a secular leader and Arafat was a nationalist). Not a good record, by in large.

How is this book written poorly?

Man, where to start? Well, as a one off adventure with the FF, it's okay.

But the problem is that the series is 33 issues in with virtually no supporting cast to call his own. There have been no recurring villains, only one subplot that's been stretched out since issue 6 and given no real attention whatsoever (there's no indication that, whatever Cannibal's doing, it's a threat). On top of that, Panther's barely been in Wakanda outside the first arc and his wedding arc, which is hard to ignore after almost a year and a half.

Really, in what way is this a well written book?

[Expletive Deleted]

If it was JUST bad writing, people would ignore it.Do we read the same Internet?

[XPac]

Do we read the same Internet?

Sure. Do you spend your time writing about EVERY book you don't like the writing of? I don't.

Most of the stuff I don't particularly like or care for, I simply ignore because I flat out don't care. The ones I choose to post about critically are the ones that for some additional reason get under my skin.

[Sabrinaset]

I gave BP a chance, but dropped it because ... well ... there IS one heck of a lot of race-baiting in it. I'm sorry, but Hudlin is like a one-trick pony to me. I gave it another chance when Ben and Johnny joined, but the writing ... meh.

I looked through the book today, and I was like ... is someone EDITING this book? I mean, really, MUST Hudlin keep hammering the same point over and over again ...? I'm not sure what the sales are on this book, but I have this weird suspicion that Marvel is gunna keep publishing it looon past when sales would demand it's cancellation, because Joey Q is positive that should it get cancelled, Hudlin will proclaim from the rooftops how racist Marvel and/or comic book fans are. I'd think those fears are well-founded.

[Dagger]

I think they should get someone else to write this book. When Mark Millar re-invents the X-books, give it to Brubaker! Or Christos Gage! I'm sure these two guys could make this a compelling, character driven/plot driven book that will actually be interesting! Plus I have faith in Gage that he'll actually make it fun to read as well!

[RolandJP]

How is this book written poorly? This story arch is about The Fantastic Four coming to a planet run by Skrulls that emulate curtain aspects of American history. Half of their members been there before and at that time it was a white gangster Skrulls that settle their disputes by using gladiators. Thing stopped that and left. The planet went though upheaval and some Skrull waited to be different while other waited things to be the same. These Skrulls looked back to the Earth and saw something new to emulate and it happened to be black people this time. How it that bad? It’s still the FF against Gladiators but this time they have help.

Would the story be less badly written if it was white Skrulls that separated form the Gangsters because they saw Leave it to Beaver or the Donna Reed Show?


Hudlin has gotten better as a comic book writer. This story has a beginning that deals with past continuity without ignoring anything and decent characterizations from the main cast. I really do think that if the black Skrulls were regular green Skrulls, people wouldn’t have a problem.

You see Alpha, writing from a minority point of view equals bad writing. Altho, the premise is a wonderful one. ALiens from space IE Skrulls viewing america's special race relations within its populace without impartiality. ironically, for the skrulls, for them it isnt about being a race , but emulating what exists. What would a Skrull, who can change shape and become any color or creed they wish, think of a civilization that prejudices by race--color of skin, sex, etc. But I didnt mean to interrupt. This type of comic treatise= Bad writing .

I guess a book about a minority character shouldnt touch on those subjects. And I wouldnt let millar near panther with a ten foot vibranium pole. In everybook he writes some black guy is getting stomped through concrete. If you dont believe check out the first issues of Ultimate X-men. Civil War, ad nauseum

[overcomebyfumes]

Wow. A thread about race and Sin-jection hasn't posted yet. Has he been banned or something?

pax.

[Alan2099]

Wow. A thread about race and Sin-jection hasn't posted yet. Has he been banned or something?

pax.

Yes, actually. He has been.

[overcomebyfumes]

That's a shame. Place isn't going to be the same without him.

pax.

[The Cool Thatguy]

You see Alpha, writing from a minority point of view equals bad writing. Altho, the premise is a wonderful one. ALiens from space IE Skrulls viewing america's special race relations within its populace without impartiality. ironically, for the skrulls, for them it isnt about being a race , but emulating what exists. What would a Skrull, who can change shape and become any color or creed they wish, think of a civilization that prejudices by race--color of skin, sex, etc. But I didnt mean to interrupt. This type of comic treatise= Bad writing .

I guess a book about a minority character shouldnt touch on those subjects. And I wouldnt let millar near panther with a ten foot vibranium pole. In everybook he writes some black guy is getting stomped through concrete. If you dont believe check out the first issues of Ultimate X-men. Civil War, ad nauseum


So as I'm to understand it, minority writers are automaticaly excempt from demands for quality? Because, by in large, those are the complaints that have dogged Hudlin's run.

No one's said he couldn't address racial politics. They just want him to do it well. He doesn't.

[RolandJP]

So as I'm to understand it, minority writers are automaticaly excempt from demands for quality? Because, by in large, those are the complaints that have dogged Hudlin's run.

No one's said he couldn't address racial politics. They just want him to do it well. He doesn't.

Not being funny but i would like to know your context for addressing racial politics well. And what other writers are you comparing him to that have done or tried this.

Secondly, I have heard complaints about Hudlin's writing but never anything specific.

Actually, the only compliant I have heard was for his depiction of a few non-minority characters. talk about irony, considering the complaints minorites have laid against other writers who have done the same.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Not being funny but i would like to know your context for addressing racial politics well. And what other writers are you comparing him to that have done or tried this.

Secondly, I have heard complaints about Hudlin's writing but never anything specific.

Actually, the only compliant I have heard was for his depiction of a few non-minority characters. talk about irony, considering the complaints minorites have laid against other writers who have done the same.

Well? Not heavy handed, over the top symbolism and whatnot. A basic sense of balance (which is missing in most comics, but that excuses no one, IMO) That's dogged his entire run.

Second, if you've never heard anything specific and only seen complains about his depictions of non minority characters, then that's all you've wanted to see. Complains about his writing in general have rightly followed Hudlin on his entire BP run.

[Beast]

That's a shame. Place isn't going to be the same without him.

pax.
Yeah, it's actually going to be nice for a change. No more race baiting threads.

[XPac]

Not being funny but i would like to know your context for addressing racial politics well. And what other writers are you comparing him to that have done or tried this.

Secondly, I have heard complaints about Hudlin's writing but never anything specific.

Actually, the only compliant I have heard was for his depiction of a few non-minority characters. talk about irony, considering the complaints minorites have laid against other writers who have done the same.

Well, if you want some specifics I was never a fan of his continuity.

His first BP arc has Hudlin basically retconning BP and Klaws entire history together, erasing decades worth of Klaw stories so that they're suddenly meeting for the first time. Kind of silly since Klaw is being used in other books.

He magically transforms Radioactive Man from Chinese to Russian and throws in there, ignoring Radioactive Man's usage in other books like TBolts.

In both cases, he completely ignores continuity. Thus other writers in turn completely ignored what he did. That sort of writing is so off it has to be completely ignored so the rest of the MU can make sense.

And if it means anything (and it shouldn't), I'm a minority. And I still think it's bad writing.

[TotalWorldDomination]

Yeah, it's actually going to be nice for a change. No more race baiting threads.

correction- FEWER race-baiting threads. Though by now, if sinjection had been around, this would have become one almost instantly.

[bluedmighty]

I thought this issue was great fun.

The artist has really picked up.

The fight scenes were cool.

Lot's of smart/bad assery to go around.

The argument between Mlk and X was done well.

Storm reacted accordingly (They looked like they were O.K. but Storm told them to stay away from her whn theshooting started. just brcause they looked black didn't mean that she trusted them.).

Can't wait for next issue.

Storm said it's clobberin time!!!!!! :D

Oh, and pass on the Brubecker

[TotalWorldDomination]

Well, if you want some specifics I was never a fan of his continuity.

His first BP arc has Hudlin basically retconning BP and Klaws entire history together, erasing decades worth of Klaw stories so that they're suddenly meeting for the first time. Kind of silly since Klaw is being used in other books.

He magically transforms Radioactive Man from Chinese to Russian and throws in there, ignoring Radioactive Man's usage in other books like TBolts.

In both cases, he completely ignores continuity. Thus other writers in turn completely ignored what he did. That sort of writing is so off it has to be completely ignored so the rest of the MU can make sense.

And if it means anything (and it shouldn't), I'm a minority. And I still think it's bad writing.

Don't forget the Ebony Blade fiasco!

[bluedmighty]

Don't forget the Ebony Blade fiasco!


What's wrong with the ebony Blade?

[XPac]

What's wrong with the ebony Blade?

Hudlin had a new evil Black Knight showing up and fighting BP, with BP getting the Ebony Blade.

Meanwhile, Black Knight was over in Excalibur again holding the Ebony Blade.

Funny thing is even though the Knight has been the swords primary user for decades and Black Panther basically never uses the thing, the resolution to that whole conflict was that Black Knight unknowingly had a fake while BP has the real one. But Danes fake had the curse and BP's strangely doesn't. Go figure.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Well, if you want some specifics I was never a fan of his continuity.

His first BP arc has Hudlin basically retconning BP and Klaws entire history together, erasing decades worth of Klaw stories so that they're suddenly meeting for the first time. Kind of silly since Klaw is being used in other books.

He magically transforms Radioactive Man from Chinese to Russian and throws in there, ignoring Radioactive Man's usage in other books like TBolts.

In both cases, he completely ignores continuity. Thus other writers in turn completely ignored what he did. That sort of writing is so off it has to be completely ignored so the rest of the MU can make sense.

And if it means anything (and it shouldn't), I'm a minority. And I still think it's bad writing.

I'd add to that that Hudlin's revamp of Panther's origin lessens Panther as a whole. Lets start with T'Challa's dad.

There's a world of difference between getting killed on the battle field, and in a hotel room. Getting killed in a battle is epic, grabs the imagination. Getting killed in a hotel room is a whimper compared to that.

Supporters have said that it makes more 'sense' being killed in a hotel room than a battle field, because Wakandian forces should slaughter any invading army. Most ignore that's exactly what happened until Klaw used his Kirby weapon.

In addition, T'Challa turning the tide of an epic battle is far superior than him turning a gun on a single hired killer. From a deciding factor in a war to what might as well be a screwed up home invasion. Yes, that's a vastly superior origin :rolleyes:

Hudlin also lessened T'Challa by making Wakanda uber advanced, to the point of Kirby weapons hundreds of years before T'Challa was born. In the past, it was T'Challa who single handily who made Wakanda a super power, and everything about it reflected his genius. Now, he simply inherited it and it doesn't reflect his genius, like Namor with Atlantis, or Ghaur with Lemuria.

These are complaints I and others voiced some time ago. How is that not specific enough?

[bluezulu]

Sorry Alphaxman for letting you sit out here alone on front street. My comic store did not have the issue ready until Saturday afternoon and unlike some Internet posters I try not to post about books I do not read. Let me chime in.


This is a great near conclusion to the skrull/intergalactic/frog arc. As one who did not care too much for the zombie/frog story line I must say the sci-fi elements hooked me in good by the end of the storyline. Reading posters who always get at Hudlin for his continuity well he included airtight continuity in this issue and folks still hate. I laugh at posters who talk about old politics and such. There is no such thing in black America. Old politics is just like new politics the same ol thing different year. The use of Arafat and Saddam and Malcom and Martin in this issue all serve the same goal. Symbolism. The thing about political and social satire is that it relies heavily on visual symbolism to point to the obvious and bring about a subtle deeper meaning.

The race card and race baiting? Lol. To some posters just talking about race or any perceived racial issues bring about the fury. The issue is with those who have a problem even talking about race even when used subtly and entertaining here. When the Thing initially went to this skrull world they choose to emulate the 1920 and 30s America with gangsters using slaves in the arena. Ben freed the gladiators from the arena creating a disruption in the status quo. Hudlin did not create that plot some one else did. So in Hudlin story the some Skrulls felt bad about what they did and looked again to our world for an example and what did they see. The civil rights era. They choose to emulate that time however the gangster emulating skruls wanted a return to the old ways. Perfect symbolism. You have direct parallels of the Civil rights movements from our world to the skrull world. George Wallace in his cronies wanted a return to the plantation system (wiki it) Malcom and Martin wanted change. The skrulls from that planet were at similar odds.

From the outset Marvel and Hudlin have said what they intended for this book to be. Offering Social and Political satire bringing the Black Panther to the fore front of the Marvel U being a major player. In three years the Black Panther has:

Been involved in the Civil War.
Interacted on panel at the same time no less most of the major minority heroes in marvel
Had the first black marriage of super hero couples
Was a major player in the civil way
Has been involved more or less in almost every marvel cross over to date.

Hey alpha sorry you had to go through being criticised for a book you enjoy reading if you want to talk about the black panther with out being interrogated for it you are more then welcome to go to Hudlins site. Pm me if you want the address.

Peace

[Tobias Drake]

Anyone else notice that the Skrulls are remarkably stupid on this planet? You would think Skrulls, of all people, would be aware that Skrulls are shapeshifters. It would be too easy for the gangster Skrulls to turn into black Skrulls, go into uptown, get into the Black Panthers, and gun them all down with their own weapons, or vice versa, for the Black Panthers to shapeshift into gangster Skrulls, hook up with the gangs, and start gunning them down. And the Black Panthers don't seem to have any suspicion of this possibility, accepting Storm into their ranks with open arm and without a hint of raised eyebrows.

The Skrulls invading Earth right now would have these guys licked in less than an hour.

[bluezulu]

Im not too far in my skrull knowledge but cant skrulls shape shifted or not tell that each other are skrulls? You know Im just saying.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Sorry Alphaxman for letting you sit out here alone on front street. My comic store did not have the issue ready until Saturday afternoon and unlike some Internet posters I try not to post about books I do not read. Let me chime in.


This is a great near conclusion to the skrull/intergalactic/frog arc. As one who did not care too much for the zombie/frog story line I must say the sci-fi elements hooked me in good by the end of the storyline. Reading posters who always get at Hudlin for his continuity well he included airtight continuity in this issue and folks still hate. I laugh at posters who talk about old politics and such. There is no such thing in black America. Old politics is just like new politics the same ol thing different year. The use of Arafat and Saddam and Malcom and Martin in this issue all serve the same goal. Symbolism. The thing about political and social satire is that it relies heavily on visual symbolism to point to the obvious and bring about a subtle deeper meaning.

Zulu? I observed that it was symbolism in my complaint. Had you read it, you'd see that I took issue with the fact that 1) It was very much outdated and 2) amazingly stupid for the reasons I cited before.

As a personal aside, I wonder how great this story arc can be, when the editors themselves have stepped in and forced Hudlin to end it early. Not exactly a statement of faith.

[Daouda]

I just finished reading Black Panther 33 and it was excellent!

From BP's arena battle to Storm's introduction to the politics of the world, this issue was pleasure to read. I can't wait for the next issue!

I've said it before and I'll say it again; I love Mr. Hudlin's characterization of Johnny, Ben, Ororo and T'Challa.
Johnny's defining personality trait of "hotheadedness" can easily be an excuse for caricature but Hudlin has Johnny show intelligence, compassion and a fine control of his powers that enables a reader to understand why the youngest member of the FF is a hero. And it is done in two pages.

Ben. I loved the Thing in this issue (uh, hope that came out right:) ) From the unheard utterance of pride in "Good job, Johnny." to "All we gotta do... Is survive." Ben is unbowed by threats and quick on the uptake. "You know we ain't fighting each other, right?" "Would it be wrong to suggest Stark industries?":evilsmile

Storm's simple speech to the gathered fighters was sensible and concise. I like how she subtely powered up when speaking to let people know the danger she posed was real. Her later quote of Ben's tagline was unexpected but utterly appropriate. And cool as hell!:)

How BP used his captors to not only verify where he was but to 'hopefully' signal Earth for help was just smooth.

In both what they express and how they express themselves, the dialogue is flawless.

I must mention the art. I'm not familiar with Andrea Devito but her art is good, especially the facial expressions.

I don't like the coloring. It is too shiny and photoshop looking. I liked previous techniques that looked like watercolor.


Alphaxman, Post-It, Excelsior, bluedmighty, bluezulu what up! I can only say that some of the things that people complain about I either don't care about or are the very things I like about this series.

Check out some of the earlier threads I've posted in to see more detailed responses.

If you haven't read Black Panther I advise anyone to not listen to the haters and pick up an issue for yourselves. It's great! :)


Excelsior!

Daoud

[bluezulu]

I just finished reading Black Panther 33 and it was excellent!

From BP's arena battle to Storm's introduction to the politics of the world, this issue was pleasure to read. I can't wait for the next issue!

I've said it before and I'll say it again; I love Mr. Hudlin's characterization of Johnny, Ben, Ororo and T'Challa.
Johnny's defining personality trait of "hotheadedness" can easily be an excuse for caricature but Hudlin has Johnny show intelligence, compassion and a fine control of his powers that enables a reader to understand why the youngest member of the FF is a hero. And it is done in two pages.

Ben. I loved the Thing in this issue (uh, hope that came out right:) ) From the unheard utterance of pride in "Good job, Johnny." to "All we gotta do... Is survive." Ben is unbowed by threats and quick on the uptake. "You know we ain't fighting each other, right?" "Would it be wrong to suggest Stark industries?":evilsmile

Storm's simple speech to the gathered fighters was sensible and concise. I like how she subtely powered up when speaking to let people know the danger she posed was real. Her later quote of Ben's tagline was unexpected but utterly appropriate. And cool as hell!:)

How BP used his captors to not only verify where he was but to 'hopefully' signal Earth for help was just smooth.

In both what they express and how they express themselves, the dialogue is flawless.

I must mention the art. I'm not familiar with Andrea Devito but her art is good, especially the facial expressions.

I don't like the coloring. It is too shiny and photoshop looking. I liked previous techniques that looked like watercolor.


Alphaxman, Post-It, Excelsior, bluedmighty, bluezulu what up! I can only say that some of the things that people complain about I either don't care about or are the very things I like about this series.

Check out some of the earlier threads I've posted in to see more detailed responses.

If you haven't read Black Panther I advise anyone to not listen to the haters and pick up an issue for yourselves. It's great! :)


Excelsior!

Daoud

------------------
And these are all the other things that were good about this issue. As you pointed out, just the "comic book stuff" was good about this book as well. I actually saw a level of respect from each character showing what makes them good characters. Storms raw power and personal strength. Black Panthers strategy and tactical mind even with out his teck. Ben's humor even in the most dire situations a most underrated trait and his power. He faced what all of these heroes did alone before and won. Johnny being able to use that awesome power of his and his brain to out think his captors. I know with just a hint of race in this issues some thought they had a got ya moment on their hand but they should have saved that for another issue. This was flat out a good comic, I don't care how you slice it. Guess you have to buy it and not just stand in the comic shop to breeze through it for your weekly I hate Hudlin post I guess.

[Post-It]

------------------
I know with just a hint of race in this issues some thought they had a got ya moment on their hand but they should have saved that for another issue.

I just had a crazy thought. What if some readers view Hudlin's work as racial in the same way that some readers see racism in the writing of white writers? Like most other books some claim it is plain as day while others fail to see it. Thinks that make you go hmmmm...

[Dagger]

I just had a crazy thought. What if some readers view Hudlin's work as racial in the same way that some readers see racism in the writing of white writers? Like most other books some claim it is plain as day while others fail to see it. Thinks that make you go hmmmm...
Shenanigans! That is the (white) man trying to keep the really bad comic book writer down!! I demand you be deported to some swayback third world country!

[DaeJi]

Oh, race this, race that... there's nothing wrong with a little commentary on race in some comics (personally though I think Black Panther is a poor book to do it in; a Cage book would be much better; why don't we have a Cage book yet?!). The problem isn't that Hublin addresses race in his writings, the problem is that... well, he's not a good writer. As his very best, of which we've probably seen twice, he's remarkable average. Seriously, he needs to go, and Marvel needs to put a real writter on the book.

[Loren]

The use of Arafat and Saddam and Malcom and Martin in this issue all serve the same goal. Symbolism. The thing about political and social satire is that it relies heavily on visual symbolism to point to the obvious and bring about a subtle deeper meaning.

I think I see the symbolism now. The racist white American Skrulls represent racist white Americans. The freedom-fighting African-American Skrulls represent freedom-fighting African-Americans, and the Martin Luther King and Malcolm X Skrulls represent Martin Luther King and Malcolm X. That's obviously good satire, with such ingenious symbolism.

The issue is with those who have a problem even talking about race even when used subtly and entertaining here.

"Subtle" was exactly the word I was thinking. A casual reader might not even pick up on the racial subtext. Assuming, of course, they didn't pay attention to the pictures. And didn't recognize two of the most famous civil rights advocates of the 20th century. I mean, what could you call a story that guest-stars Martin Luther King and Malcolm X other than "subtle" on the issue of race?

So in Hudlin story the some Skrulls felt bad about what they did and looked again to our world for an example and what did they see. The civil rights era. They choose to emulate that time however the gangster emulating skruls wanted a return to the old ways.

And it's so very much like Skrulls to be positive and heroic. I suppose they just need to watch more PBS.

In three years the Black Panther has:

Been involved in the Civil War...
Was a major player in the civil way
Has been involved more or less in almost every marvel cross over to date.

Isn't that just restating the same thing three times? The only other crossover was "House of M," and just about every Marvel title character had at least one tie-in issue to that.

[carabas]

Isn't that just restating the same thing three times? The only other crossover was "House of M," and just about every Marvel title character had at least one tie-in issue to that.How many other Marvel books have crossed over into Marvel Zombies?

[bluezulu]

Sorry I don't believe you guys. Recent past history has shown when the color of the person doing the race related story isn't black yall (the fanboy) have had no problems with it. The Ultimate Cap n Falcon one shot annual from a while back was waaay more preachy then anything Hudlin has ever done heard nothing bout it. Yall loved the hell out of Supreme Power Night Hawk and he was calling folks honky left and right in there. Supreme Power was good and that Ultimate one shot was good but the race related stuff contained was no more no less then what Hudlin has done.

Let's look at the "race" related topics can we? The first arc involved a largly white administration with a Condi Rice parody ok a black ops operation in Wakanda. One of the generals calls Wakandans a racial slur and is corrected.

In the Hurricane Katrina story during the 3 the hard way arc he has Blade call a white plantation supremist vampire a crakka. Even if that isnt accurate it is not out of characterezation for Blade to call you know a redneck vampire that.

Dr. Doom insults the intelligence of Black Panther/africans with a ethnic/intelligence comments. This board and others went into a firestorm that had one side saying that it isn't inacurate of a characterzation of Doom while Doom's defenders chided Hudlin saying Doom might be a cold blooded murderer of masses but he is noo races.:rolleyes: . Finally for the continuity stans somebody pulled out a scan of Doom saying racist remarks against Wakandans no less and the argument ended.

So there you have it folks. The grand total of Hudlin's "racist" publication history. I guess you can say Marvel's as well as they allow it to be published in 2007/08. I wish we can have an end to the bandwagon bash posting. Some of yall read one person's post and run with it not even reading the issue. In this very thread I read the prhrase "race baiting" several times. Some one writing entertaining stories for a targeted audience isn't baiting. The 25k who read the book got this latest issue and enjoyed it. Those who don't read the book profess to not like the book and in their thread title post Hudlin/ Black Panther/ racist in it. That is race baiting. Some of you all would have just glanced over this book and not cared unless you have the agenda driven keeping this stuff going. I still say do what you do though because the lower tier selling title generated upper level internet buzz.

See yall at issue 100.

[Loren]

How many other Marvel books have crossed over into Marvel Zombies?

Well, none, but it can't really be said that it was "involved in a Marvel crossover" when it was three issues of the series itself.

[Loren]

Oh, race this, race that... there's nothing wrong with a little commentary on race in some comics (personally though I think Black Panther is a poor book to do it in; a Cage book would be much better; why don't we have a Cage book yet?!).

Why is BP a poor book to do it in? It seems a perfectly apropos place to me.

On the other hand, an arc set on a planet of gangster Skrulls in the Skrull galaxy is an odd place to inject overt commentary on US race relations, I'll grant you that.

[bluezulu]

Shoot. From Wikipedia since some either won't refuse to look into it on their own.

Satire.

Satire is strictly a literary genre, although it is found in the graphic and performing arts as well as the printed word. In satire, human or individual vices, follies, abuses, or shortcomings are held up to censure by means of ridicule, derision, burlesque, irony, or other methods, ideally with an intent to bring about improvement.[1] Although satire is usually meant to be funny, the purpose of satire is not primarily humour in itself so much as an often quite angry attack on something the author strongly disapproves, using the weapon of wit.

A very common, almost defining feature of satire is a strong vein of irony or sarcasm, but parody, burlesque, exaggeration, juxtaposition, comparison, analogy, and double entendre are all frequently used in satirical speech and writing. The essential point, however, is that "in satire, irony is militant"[2]. This "militant irony" (or sarcasm) often professes to approve the very things the satirist actually wishes to attack.

--------------------

K. Satire has long been a preferred and legitemately used entertainment vessel for blacks. It has been used in the comic setting but in my memory Marvel has not used it in it's main title before. Satire has been left to be used by the Howard the Ducks and similar unconventional books. The best that I can tell you is that Hudlin being a "child of the 70s" saw this as one of the prevailing themes of entertainment for black folks. During this time you say the rise in Black exploitation movies, sitcoms etc. Satire is the primary style used in Mad Magazine. Yep some of Hudlin's work especially when he goes into the political/social satire stuff reminds me of the Mad Magazine parodies. Stay with me now. Satire has been used in shows like In living Color, Saturday Night Live and tons of stand up comedy routines. Before marvel Hudlin's other comic work was a graphic novel co-written by Aaron Mcgruder of Boondocks fame. Wo boy if those panels in Black Panther #33 piss you off Birth of a Nation will make you have a fit. Finally ima close with this example.

http://www.popcultureshock.com/reviews.php?id=3628

That link comes from the original solicit for this series where it brings up Hudlin's pedigree and what his style was going to be going into this series. I will be damned if he hasn't stuck right to the formula. Even I was leery of the frog dimension jumping marvel zombie arc. But he has stuck true to form and put out this gem of an issue.

I typed all of this to say. Look you can hate Hudlin's writing. You can hate the direction of this book. The one thing I will go to task with posters about is saying that the style of this book is not valid. If political/social satire ain't your thing in your comic books then that is cool. But for the audience Marvel is trying to reach much like the marvel adventures line or spidergirl this book hits an audience that Marvel has not appealed to before. They wanted first time readers and the Hip Hop faithful. You can debate if they reached that audience or not, but just say the book does not appeal to you and move on. Please move on.

[Alan2099]

Sorry I don't believe you guys. Recent past history has shown when the color of the person doing the race related story isn't black yall (the fanboy) have had no problems with it. The Ultimate Cap n Falcon one shot annual from a while back was waaay more preachy then anything Hudlin has ever done heard nothing bout it. Yall loved the hell out of Supreme Power Night Hawk and he was calling folks honky left and right in there. Supreme Power was good and that Ultimate one shot was good but the race related stuff contained was no more no less then what Hudlin has done.
The difference is, unlike Hudlin's stuff, those were well written. It has nothing to do with the message. The message is fine, it'ds the messanger that doesn't know how to tell it that bothers people.

I typed all of this to say. Look you can hate Hudlin's writing. You can hate the direction of this book. The one thing I will go to task with posters about is saying that the style of this book is not valid. If political/social satire ain't your thing in your comic books then that is cool.
People are saying they hate the book and you argue with them on the fact when they say why they hate it. As for being "valid", (nice choice of words, by the way. That's such a vague way of saying it you could defend almost any interpretation. A bit weasely, but givem simliar circumstance, I'd have probably hoped for the same.)

Anyway, about the direction of the book being not valid, the book hardly has any direction. Most of the time it's doing nothing but playing pigglyback off it's guest stars and whatever major events it can tie into. All packaged up with some very heavy handed and poorly thought out racial commentary, and missing most of the aspects of the characters that have in the past made them so intresting.

Even if this does barely qualify as satire, it's horrible written satire. It's satire so bad, people have to pull out a definitiona nd go though a check list before they can reasoanbly say that it does fit the definion of satire. On that level, the book and the direction of the book, fails.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Sorry I don't believe you guys. Recent past history has shown when the color of the person doing the race related story isn't black yall (the fanboy) have had no problems with it. The Ultimate Cap n Falcon one shot annual from a while back was waaay more preachy then anything Hudlin has ever done heard nothing bout it. Yall loved the hell out of Supreme Power Night Hawk and he was calling folks honky left and right in there. Supreme Power was good and that Ultimate one shot was good but the race related stuff contained was no more no less then what Hudlin has done.

Let's look at the "race" related topics can we? The first arc involved a largly white administration with a Condi Rice parody ok a black ops operation in Wakanda. One of the generals calls Wakandans a racial slur and is corrected.

In the Hurricane Katrina story during the 3 the hard way arc he has Blade call a white plantation supremist vampire a crakka. Even if that isnt accurate it is not out of characterezation for Blade to call you know a redneck vampire that.

Dr. Doom insults the intelligence of Black Panther/africans with a ethnic/intelligence comments. This board and others went into a firestorm that had one side saying that it isn't inacurate of a characterzation of Doom while Doom's defenders chided Hudlin saying Doom might be a cold blooded murderer of masses but he is noo races.:rolleyes: . Finally for the continuity stans somebody pulled out a scan of Doom saying racist remarks against Wakandans no less and the argument ended.

So there you have it folks. The grand total of Hudlin's "racist" publication history. I guess you can say Marvel's as well as they allow it to be published in 2007/08. I wish we can have an end to the bandwagon bash posting. Some of yall read one person's post and run with it not even reading the issue. In this very thread I read the prhrase "race baiting" several times. Some one writing entertaining stories for a targeted audience isn't baiting. The 25k who read the book got this latest issue and enjoyed it. Those who don't read the book profess to not like the book and in their thread title post Hudlin/ Black Panther/ racist in it. That is race baiting. Some of you all would have just glanced over this book and not cared unless you have the agenda driven keeping this stuff going. I still say do what you do though because the lower tier selling title generated upper level internet buzz.

See yall at issue 100.

Has the thought that the reason 'other people get to do it' is because they're better writers and treat the subject matter better? Though I don't remember anyone giving a damn about the Ultimate Annual, Nighthawk's always been treated like a man with lots of issues.

And really, you didn't cite all the 'racial' stuff n Hudlin's comics. The rational for the first arc and those two Middle East stereotypes might as well be 'those Wakandians are uppity'. We see symbolism that's decades out of date at best, and we see Doom making vague racial insults. When you combine that with poor plotting and writing, why is Hudlin due any credit whatsoever?

[DaeJi]

Why is BP a poor book to do it in?

Because T'Challa is African and shouldn't have the same attitudes about race that we have. Likewise he's a king. Like I said, a Cage book would be sooooooooooooooo much better for this, as long as it got a decent writer.

[bluezulu]

I'm not going to argue or debate is Hudlin a good writer with anyone. That is a waste of time. You are welcome to your opinion. When ever someone makes statements exactly why the feel he is a bad writer. They cite outdated politics, racist and continuity. When those points get rejected one by one then they fall back on well yea, he sucks as a writer anyway. :rolleyes: . I'm done with those posters. Putting them on ignore for straw man arguments.

There was statements that the race symbolisms in Hudlin's stories were not valid. That is why I wrote that. I have yet in the three years that this run of the book has been out, had anyone explain to me why this book is such a problem for people who don't read it? Issue after issue, this on the fence supposed to be cancelled any day now book about a B level character generates a lot of energy from people who don't like it? Some are fans of the character. Some are fans of previous writers of the book. However I don't understand putting energy in something you don't like. Priest aint coming back and I don't see a line of writers banging the door down at Marvel to write this character.

[XPac]

Sorry I don't believe you guys. Recent past history has shown when the color of the person doing the race related story isn't black yall (the fanboy) have had no problems with it. The Ultimate Cap n Falcon one shot annual from a while back was waaay more preachy then anything Hudlin has ever done heard nothing bout it. Yall loved the hell out of Supreme Power Night Hawk and he was calling folks honky left and right in there. Supreme Power was good and that Ultimate one shot was good but the race related stuff contained was no more no less then what Hudlin has done.



Can't comment on the Ultimate Cap n Falcon cause I only skinned through it... but yeah, Supreme Power really was that good. If Black Panther had that level of quality writing, then the racial issues would sort of be secondary.

I think a big part of the criticism of Hudlin is that a lot of people think he's a so-so writing... the racial issues are just something they don't like in addtion to that.

Plenty of people in this very thread have praised Priests Black Panther. I don't think the issue is really the color of the writer, but rather how good the writer is in conveying the idea, racial or otherwise. The racial stuff gets the most debate because it's the more emotional arguement... but the heart of this or really any comic book debate is the quality of the writing. If you do it well (like Priest and JMS did in Supreme Power), you won't get the criticism Hudlin gets. I'm not white myself... I have no reason to give any preferential treatment to a white writer, or any other writer for that matter. Or a writer of color for that mater... really who gives a dam.

But obviously what qualifies as good writing is subjective... that's why some praise the guy and some don't.

[Dark Soul # 7]

I must mention the art. I'm not familiar with Andrea Devito but her art is good, especially the facial expressions.I just wanted to point out that Andea Di Vito is a guy. A very talented one.

Among hisother work there's the first Annihilation mini and World War Hulk: X-men. I'd recommend both based on the art alone,but the stories are also really good.

Now you may all return to your shouting.

[bluezulu]

Because T'Challa is African and shouldn't have the same attitudes about race that we have. Likewise he's a king. Like I said, a Cage book would be sooooooooooooooo much better for this, as long as it got a decent writer.

------------------
While I agree that a Cage book would be good to deal with this type of stuff I really disagree that this book is an appropriate forum to deal with these type of issues. Umm look. With almost every issue we debait over issues that come out of a comic book no less. If one person can be enlightend or learn something then whatever the goal of Marvel and Hudlin is, it has been met.

The Black Panther is the first genuine superhero.
This book is being written by a black writer.
The main character has adventures that takes him all over the globe including America so dealing with those type of issues is a given. Oh and when has racisim, discrimination and prejudice been just an American issue? We are obsessed with it, however it is an issue all over the world.

[The Cool Thatguy]

I'm not going to argue or debate is Hudlin a good writer with anyone. That is a waste of time. You are welcome to your opinion. When ever someone makes statements exactly why the feel he is a bad writer. They cite outdated politics, racist and continuity. When those points get rejected one by one then they fall back on well yea, he sucks as a writer anyway. :rolleyes: . I'm done with those posters. Putting them on ignore for straw man arguments.

There was statements that the race symbolisms in Hudlin's stories were not valid. That is why I wrote that. I have yet in the three years that this run of the book has been out, had anyone explain to me why this book is such a problem for people who don't read it? Issue after issue, this on the fence supposed to be cancelled any day now book about a B level character generates a lot of energy from people who don't like it? Some are fans of the character. Some are fans of previous writers of the book. However I don't understand putting energy in something you don't like. Priest aint coming back and I don't see a line of writers banging the door down at Marvel to write this character.

First, yes his symbolism wasn't 'valid'. The Cold War has been over for decades, and at the time Arafat was dead and Saddam deposed and captured. Depicting both as current, means you're pretty much wrong.

And here we go with the second distraction that Hudlin fans like to use 'Priest ain't coming back!'

I don't recall anyone really asking for that. IIRC, he was only cited in this thread as a superior writer to Hudlin. And really, that;s not a short list ;)

[LawGiver]

I wasn't a big fan of the symbolism in this issue, whether it was intentional or not. A lot of fans assume stuff about white writers yet feel that it's ok to brush over it when a writer of color does it. It should work both ways.

[bluezulu]

The cold war may be over but a lot of the fall out from it isn't. So like I said when you look at satire, it isn't so much about making a statement about current relations with Russia, Iraq or who ever. It is taking the obvious, cold war politics, Malcom, Martin or Saddam so that the reader has immediate recognition and then from that able to make a connection with what the writer is trying to say. Some are looking for current political issues to be wrapped all in the current stories and some level they are however I always look at this.

What you don't learn from history or the past then you are doom to repeat it. I paraphrased the saying big time however the meaning is more or less the same. That is why with black folks and their politics it has remained the same more or less over the years. Go look at the youtube flicks of the presidential candidates at the Selma churches for a clue. lol Politicians looking for the black vote have done it for years. A lot of the issues/politics for black folks are still lingering around from the 1950s. But today we live in a just get over it society where a lot of my younger and lighter brethren will just wish that african americans will just get over it and move on already. Ahh typing this I just got it. That is the beef with the politics of the Black Panther. Just get over it.

[The Cool Thatguy]

The cold war may be over but a lot of the fall out from it isn't. So like I said when you look at satire, it isn't so much about making a statement about current relations with Russia, Iraq or who ever. It is taking the obvious, cold war politics, Malcom, Martin or Saddam so that the reader has immediate recognition and then from that able to make a connection with what the writer is trying to say. Some are looking for current political issues to be wrapped all in the current stories and some level they are however I always look at this.

I never said the ramifications are over, but yes, the Cold War as it was back then is dead and buried.

And that's a problem when you try to depict the symbolism in question as current. Hudlin threw in modern War on Terror symbolism into his other, outdated symbolism.

I don't know what's so hard to grasp, Zulu, about the idea that to have current symbolism about the modern world, you actually have to be current on recent events (and hell, how old was the Black Knight symbolism?).

[zulu801]

Individuals would like to have Hudlin axed and have expressed their POV here, there and everywhere on the internet. Freedom of speech and expression. Nuff said. NYCON is coming up, WizardCon will be in a city near you and each year SDCC are places to be to express your "POV" to marvel, JQ, AA, Hudlin, or engage in a discussion w/ BP fans face to face in the "speech and expression" folks have shown for the past 2 yrs.

I challenged anyone to engaged your POV in the same manner expressed on the net to list of names above in person at this yrs or future cons. How will u express ur self? I have been to Wizard Con and SDCC within the past 2 yrs and I have not heard a peep or peeps of ill feelings in the manner like on the net boards. If you can't talk or don't like JQ, talk to AA. Hell step to the man face to face (not the net) Hudlin and engaged in a convo.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Individuals would like to have Hudlin axed and have expressed their POV here, there and everywhere on the internet. Freedom of speech and expression. Nuff said. NYCON is coming up, WizardCon will be in a city near you and each year SDCC are places to be to express your "POV" to marvel, JQ, AA, Hudlin, or engage in a discussion w/ BP fans face to face in the "speech and expression" folks have shown for the past 2 yrs.

I challenged anyone to engaged your POV in the same manner expressed on the net to list of names above in person at this yrs or future cons. How will u express ur self? I have been to Wizard Con and SDCC within the past 2 yrs and I have not heard a peep or peeps of ill feelings in the manner like on the net boards. If you can't talk or don't like JQ, talk to AA. Hell step to the man face to face (not the net) Hudlin and engaged in a convo.

lol

I've also never seen Bush confronted in any public forum about his policies. Were one to accept your logic, that would mean that people are okay with it, by in large.

Personally, I'm not gonna haul my ass across state lines and whatnot to complain. Waste of time.

[zulu801]

lol

I've also never seen Bush confronted in any public forum about his policies. Were one to accept your logic, that would mean that people are okay with it, by in large.

Personally, I'm not gonna haul my ass across state lines and whatnot to complain. Waste of time.

Challenged decline? Stay across state line and stay on net to express your dissatisfaction. lol Bush will not engaged in a public forum to talk to the public about his policies because he will make himself look foolish. Here's one of many "public forums" (ur words) at cons for all to complain, comment and engage with "policies makers and writers. Not a waste of time for those who want change so bad.

[DaeJi]

Challenged decline? Stay across state line and stay on net to express your dissatisfaction. lol Bush will not engaged in a public forum to talk to the public about his policies because he will make himself look foolish. Here's one of many "public forums" (ur words) at cons for all to complain, comment and engage with "policies makers and writers. Not a waste of time for those who want change so bad.

A letter works just as well.

[zulu801]

A letter works just as well.

it seems that for the past 2 yrs (and continuing) letter writing is not working well.

[XPac]

Individuals would like to have Hudlin axed and have expressed their POV here, there and everywhere on the internet. Freedom of speech and expression. Nuff said. NYCON is coming up, WizardCon will be in a city near you and each year SDCC are places to be to express your "POV" to marvel, JQ, AA, Hudlin, or engage in a discussion w/ BP fans face to face in the "speech and expression" folks have shown for the past 2 yrs.

I challenged anyone to engaged your POV in the same manner expressed on the net to list of names above in person at this yrs or future cons. How will u express ur self? I have been to Wizard Con and SDCC within the past 2 yrs and I have not heard a peep or peeps of ill feelings in the manner like on the net boards. If you can't talk or don't like JQ, talk to AA. Hell step to the man face to face (not the net) Hudlin and engaged in a convo.

It's no secret that fans do tend to be nicer to comic creaters at cons. They want them to have pleasant experiences so that they[ll come back. Even on internet boards, more often than not when a writer decides to post, most posters will try to do their best to be nice so they'll want to stick around (though there are always exceptions).

Plus, given the very limited amount of time you have to communicate to them and vice versa, you can't really convey the ideas you can here in the same way. Nor are the issues necessarily important enough to address there if you've only got like 30 seconds to speak. If I had 10 minutes to speak to these guys I'd be happy to discuss some of the things I do on boards like this. If I have maybe 1 question to ask, I probably won't waste in on a criticism unless it's something that's really relavent or important to me.

[DaeJi]

it seems that for the past 2 yrs (and continuing) letter writing is not working well.

Marvel doesn't want to admit to it's mistake. The fact that the writer is head of BET and would probably be pissed if Marvel fired him and gave the book to another writer probably doesn't help.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Challenged decline? Stay across state line and stay on net to express your dissatisfaction. lol Bush will not engaged in a public forum to talk to the public about his policies because he will make himself look foolish. Here's one of many "public forums" (ur words) at cons for all to complain, comment and engage with "policies makers and writers. Not a waste of time for those who want change so bad.

Bush engages in public forum after public forum, actually. I guess my subtext just slid by, huh?

[HepOne]

I thank some people for trying to to bring some sanity to this thread. The op COMPLETELY missed the point of comic, I am struggling to see how he jumped to those conclusions- a complete misunderstanding about the 'race card'. In this issue and the last one we saw some black gansters who act the same as the white ones. The 'Black Panthers' act as the freedom fighters against the gangsters rule. I'm not sure about the use of Malcom X and MLK but I suppose they represent the militant and peacefull sides of the population.

This was a good issue. It’s difficult to make Black Panther seem a physical threat when he is surrounded by such highly powered people- Storm, Human Torch and the Thing.The fights were well drawn and choreographedI actually think this arc is better than the last one. There is a mention about th FFs past history on the planet and the suspicion on BP was skillfully placed.

I used to read this forum before I joined and I thought you guys had finally gotten over the Hudlin-Hate but I guess not:confused:

[DaeJi]

I used to read this forum before I joined and I thought you guys had finally gotten over the Hudlin-Hate but I guess not:confused:

Most people don't hate Hudlin because of his race agenda. Most just don't think he's a good writer. Look at the flak Judd Winnick gets; same thing.

[zulu801]

It's no secret that fans do tend to be nicer to comic creaters at cons. They want them to have pleasant experiences so that they[ll come back. Even on internet boards, more often than not when a writer decides to post, most posters will try to do their best to be nice so they'll want to stick around (though there are always exceptions).

Plus, given the very limited amount of time you have to communicate to them and vice versa, you can't really convey the ideas you can here in the same way. Nor are the issues necessarily important enough to address there if you've only got like 30 seconds to speak. If I had 10 minutes to speak to these guys I'd be happy to discuss some of the things I do on boards like this. If I have maybe 1 question to ask, I probably won't waste in on a criticism unless it's something that's really relavent or important to me.

I feel ya and great POV. Even within ur 10 mins of expression ur given a chance to speak fan to writer (praises or criticism) and fan to fan. What's important in this matter is how one engage in the convo. My vp (viewpoint) I've engaged within LCS and cons with folks (with praises and criticisms talk) and all of us left learning something new or having different POV within subjs. (ie: BP). If it's something that's really relavent / important, then for folks who r stands strong on their POV..... like I say all the time "handle ur biz" when chances r available within one on one convo.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Most people don't hate Hudlin because of his race agenda. Most just don't think he's a good writer. Look at the flak Judd Winnick gets; same thing.

And hell, look at Claremont. IIRC, the mods at the X-board have to start the threads regarding Claremont stuff lest it rage out of control. Compared to that, Hudlin's a golden boy.

[mikekerr3]

Bush engages in public forum after public forum, actually. I guess my subtext just slid by, huh?

With selected audiences he's famous for it. His town halls are filled with people who wont ask embarrassing questions. Anyone can deal aces from a stacked deck.

[HepOne]

Because T'Challa is African and shouldn't have the same attitudes about race that we have. Likewise he's a king. Like I said, a Cage book would be sooooooooooooooo much better for this, as long as it got a decent writer.

He is an african who studied at Oxford, England and spent time as Luke Charles- an american teacher (i think?). Along with his many experiences with Avengers and FF and many years in America means he will be written in a very western way. Like it or Loath it seems the market can only handle 1/2 comics with black leads- if these things arent adressed here they wont be(see Hurricane Katrina).

Marvel doesn't want to admit to it's mistake. The fact that the writer is head of BET and would probably be pissed if Marvel fired him and gave the book to another writer probably doesn't help.

I've seen this said about alot of books on this forum, you cant just give a book to a writer- they need to have a relevant story and a desire to write the character. If this isnt there what is the point?

[HepOne]

sorry double post

[Loren]

Sorry I don't believe you guys. Recent past history has shown when the color of the person doing the race related story isn't black yall (the fanboy) have had no problems with it. The Ultimate Cap n Falcon one shot annual from a while back was waaay more preachy then anything Hudlin has ever done heard nothing bout it. Yall loved the hell out of Supreme Power Night Hawk and he was calling folks honky left and right in there.

I suppose calling folks 'honky' would be another good example of "subtle" racial commentary.

Let's look at the "race" related topics can we? The first arc involved a largly white administration with a Condi Rice parody

She wasn't a parody (since we're quoting definitions, "any humorous, satirical, or burlesque imitation, as of a person, event, etc."). She was just Condi Rice with a different name and hair color. Nothing humorous or exaggerated about her characterization.

ok a black ops operation in Wakanda.

Again on the definition front, not a black ops operation. There's no plausible deniability when the zombie soldiers pretty much announce that they're from the US. There was even a US ship off the coast of Wakanda.

In the Hurricane Katrina story during the 3 the hard way arc

The arc was "Two the Hard Way." "Three the Hard Way" is the name of the movie that that arc took its title from.

he has Blade call a white plantation supremist vampire a crakka. Even if that isnt accurate it is not out of characterezation for Blade to call you know a redneck vampire that.

How'd this thread even get to be about this? What does something Blade said in an issue two years ago have to do with the quality of #33?

Shoot. From Wikipedia since some either won't refuse to look into it on their own.

Satire.

Satire is strictly a literary genre, although it is found in the graphic and performing arts as well as the printed word. In satire, human or individual vices, follies, abuses, or shortcomings are held up to censure by means of ridicule, derision, burlesque, irony, or other methods, ideally with an intent to bring about improvement.[1] Although satire is usually meant to be funny, the purpose of satire is not primarily humour in itself so much as an often quite angry attack on something the author strongly disapproves, using the weapon of wit.

A very common, almost defining feature of satire is a strong vein of irony or sarcasm, but parody, burlesque, exaggeration, juxtaposition, comparison, analogy, and double entendre are all frequently used in satirical speech and writing. The essential point, however, is that "in satire, irony is militant"[2]. This "militant irony" (or sarcasm) often professes to approve the very things the satirist actually wishes to attack.

That's swell. But I didn't say it wasn't satire. I implied it wasn't good satire, to which you offered nothing in rebuttal other than a dictionary definition of the word 'satire.'

Still, as long as we're on the subject, what in that definition reflects Hudlin's work in BP? It states an "almost defining feature of satire is a strong vein of irony or sarcasm," which "often professes to approve the very things the satirist actually wishes to attack." When has Hudlin ever employed such a reversal? His good guys are always clearly good guys, and his bad guys are always explicitly evil.

I certainly don't see any such reversals in the current arc. There's no sarcasm here. Any approval is being directed towards the freedom-fighting Skrulls; are you suggesting that they are what Hudlin is actually trying to attack?

Satire has long been a preferred and legitemately used entertainment vessel for blacks. It has been used in the comic setting but in my memory Marvel has not used it in it's main title before. Satire has been left to be used by the Howard the Ducks and similar unconventional books. The best that I can tell you is that Hudlin being a "child of the 70s" saw this as one of the prevailing themes of entertainment for black folks. During this time you say the rise in Black exploitation movies, sitcoms etc. Satire is the primary style used in Mad Magazine. Yep some of Hudlin's work especially when he goes into the political/social satire stuff reminds me of the Mad Magazine parodies. Stay with me now. Satire has been used in shows like In living Color, Saturday Night Live and tons of stand up comedy routines. Before marvel Hudlin's other comic work was a graphic novel co-written by Aaron Mcgruder of Boondocks fame.
Wo boy if those panels in Black Panther #33 piss you off Birth of a Nation will make you have a fit.

I feel like we've had this conversation before (http://www.hudlinentertainment.com/smf/index.php?PHPSESSID=9477627ee74bbac44b8bc442409e9a 9e&topic=1215.msg23869#msg23869). Right down to your comments about "Birth of a Nation" (which I said then that I'd read and enjoyed) and your insinuations that Hudlin's critics simply don't appreciate his work because they're white.

[XPac]

He is an african who studied at Oxford, England and spent time as Luke Charles- an american teacher (i think?). Along with his many experiences with Avengers and FF and many years in America means he will be written in a very western way. Like it or Loath it seems the market can only handle 1/2 comics with black leads- if these things arent adressed here they wont be(see Hurricane Katrina).



It was done well by Nighthawk in JMS's Supreme Power, and most people didn't have a whole lot to complain about from what I could tell.

I think it makes a big difference how this sort of stuff is presented, and why which character.

[DaeJi]

I've seen this said about alot of books on this forum, you cant just give a book to a writer- they need to have a relevant story and a desire to write the character. If this isnt there what is the point?

Just because someone has an idea for a book and a desire to write it doesn't mean they'll be any good. And in this industry a lot of writers are basically just asked to write a book but a publisher, regardless if they've expressed interest in it or not. Hell, Keith Griffen does it all the time. And a lot of though stories actually turn out pretty good.

[Loren]

When ever someone makes statements exactly why the feel he is a bad writer. They cite outdated politics,

"There is no such thing in black America. Old politics is just like new politics the same ol thing different year." (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showpost.php?p=6056931&postcount=41)

There was statements that the race symbolisms in Hudlin's stories were not valid.

For the record, and in case you're speaking of me, I didn't say they weren't valid. I suggested that they were remarkably simplistic and lame. It's symbolism on a first grade level: "The civil rights advocate guy who looks like Malcolm X and calls himself Malcolm X symbolizes civil rights advocates like Malcolm X."

[The Cool Thatguy]

With selected audiences he's famous for it. His town halls are filled with people who wont ask embarrassing questions. Anyone can deal aces from a stacked deck.

I know. That was my point ;)

[XPac]

Just because someone has an idea for a book and a desire to write it doesn't mean they'll be any good. And in this industry a lot of writers are basically just asked to write a book but a publisher, regardless if they've expressed interest in it or not. Hell, Keith Griffen does it all the time. And a lot of though stories actually turn out pretty good.

I'd personally like to think that a lot of writers in the back of their minds have some pretty cool Black Panther stories to tell if they were given a choice. To write him AND Storm together is something I bet plenty of people would jump at the shot at doing.

That said, even though I'm not a big fan of Hudlin's Black Panther, I don't think he should be removed from it. It's doing okay.

[HepOne]

I'd personally like to think that a lot of writers in the back of their minds have some pretty cool Black Panther stories to tell if they were given a choice. To write him AND Storm together is something I bet plenty of people would jump at the shot at doing.


At the moment McDuffie and Loeb are the only writers other than Hudlin who have even attempted to include them. They were included in FF by Breevort's editorial mandate, BP hasn't even had a namecheck in the last 8 months since Storm has returned to the X-Men.

[HepOne]

And hell, look at Claremont. IIRC, the mods at the X-board have to start the threads regarding Claremont stuff lest it rage out of control. Compared to that, Hudlin's a golden boy.

Wasnt there a rule during the height of Hudlin-hate that meant you couldnt start a thread about Black Panther?

[Loren]

Wasnt there a rule during the height of Hudlin-hate that meant you couldnt start a thread about Black Panther?

For about two days, then it was rescinded.

[The Cool Thatguy]

At the moment McDuffie and Loeb are the only writers other than Hudlin who have even attempted to include them. They were included in FF by Breevort's editorial mandate, BP hasn't even had a namecheck in the last 8 months since Storm has returned to the X-Men.

I'd agree that T'Challa ought to get a name check in X-Men at least (though last thing we want is him getting dragged in, just ask Longshot), but honestly, why would any other writer use Panther? IIRC, Hudlin said he was going to make T'Challa a player, but allPanther's done is run from one adventure to the next. How can any writer build their plots on Hudlin's, when Hudlin himself has none?

At the moment McDuffie and Loeb are the only writers other than Hudlin who have even attempted to include them. They were included in FF by Breevort's editorial mandate, BP hasn't even had a namecheck in the last 8 months since Storm has returned to the X-Men.

Was for a time, but that's long since passed.

[zulu801]

I know. That was my point ;)

ur point did slided by from me and I need to catch it quick:D . Real talk TCT, just want to discuss w/ folks face to face about likes and dislikes (BP) when cons are around.

[The Cool Thatguy]

ur point did slided by from me and I need to catch it quick:D . Real talk TCT, just want to discuss w/ folks face to face about likes and dislikes (BP) when cons are around.

I live in VA, they don't come around here often. I'm not gonna waste hours of my time for less than a minute long expression of my disapproval. It wouldn't amount to anything more than wasting of my own time.

[frog]

You know what, people? Approval or dissapproval is already being strongly expressed by sales figures. Money speaks louder than any amount of posting, letter writing or even face to face commentary.

[RolandJP]

Some of the new solicts show promise.

BLACK PANTHER # 35
The Story: BACK TO AFRICA
Out of the frying pan…into the fire! Their fantastic adventures in the interdimensional superhighway complete, the Wakandan Royal couple at last return to Wakanda -- only to find home is anything but sweet. With serious strife tearing apart his court, and one of the Panther’s greatest foes waiting to strike, is it too late for T’Challa to regain control of his kingdom?
Rated T+ …$2.99


You know what, people? Approval or dissapproval is already being strongly expressed by sales figures. Money speaks louder than any amount of posting, letter writing or even face to face commentary.
Tell me about it. Wait till you see the new Spidey sales numbers lOL

[The Cool Thatguy]

You know what, people? Approval or dissapproval is already being strongly expressed by sales figures. Money speaks louder than any amount of posting, letter writing or even face to face commentary.

And in other news, the sky is blue. ;)

Don't count out quality so quickly though. Image in the 90s did that, relying largely on art and whatnot. And we all know how well that turned out...

[drwho]

"greatest foe?" huh. Solicits can be funny. Havent we already seen Klaw in FF? lol I really hope they don't mean that thing that invades people's bodies.

[HepOne]

"greatest foe?" huh. Solicits can be funny. Havent we already seen Klaw in FF? lol I really hope they don't mean that thing that invades people's bodies.

Killmonger?

[Brian M.]

Some of the new solicts show promise.

BLACK PANTHER # 35
The Story: BACK TO AFRICA
Out of the frying pan…into the fire! Their fantastic adventures in the interdimensional superhighway complete, the Wakandan Royal couple at last return to Wakanda -- only to find home is anything but sweet. With serious strife tearing apart his court, and one of the Panther’s greatest foes waiting to strike, is it too late for T’Challa to regain control of his kingdom?
Rated T+ …$2.99



Tell me about it. Wait till you see the new Spidey sales numbers lOL

I might actually pick that up. That's the kinda story I've wanted to read for a while and if the art is anything like the cover...I could be swayed.

[The Cool Thatguy]

"greatest foe?" huh. Solicits can be funny. Havent we already seen Klaw in FF? lol I really hope they don't mean that thing that invades people's bodies.

Shouldn't be that hard to figure out. Hudlin's used some of Panther's old rogues besides Klaw, and has given some hints as to who the 'greatest foe' might be, right?

*cough*

[HepOne]

Shouldn't be that hard to figure out. Hudlin's used some of Panther's old rogues besides Klaw, and has given some hints as to who the 'greatest foe' might be, right?

*cough*

He's shown a killmonger-looking guy talking to T'Challa's sister. Plotting to overthrow BP (again)

[Loren]

Shouldn't be that hard to figure out. Hudlin's used some of Panther's old rogues besides Klaw,

And what great use he's made of them, too. He built up Princess Zanda, only to have Storm beat her up at a store. And he did even more build-up for Man-Ape, only to play him as a goof and have Spider-Man easily dispose of him.

It's funny how in neither case T'Challa himself actually confronted his own rogue. The villains were treated as if something significant were going to happen, but all it resulted in was a supporting cast member wiping the carpet with them in a page or two.

[bluezulu]

You know what, people? Approval or dissapproval is already being strongly expressed by sales figures. Money speaks louder than any amount of posting, letter writing or even face to face commentary.

------------------------------
I agree and for all the roadblocks this character book faces it has sold steady and predictable. Steady at 25k and double that crossover events. I bet the accounting department at marvel loves that.

[Karthak]

Yes, actually. He has been.

On that note, where is Magneto Rocks? I can't even find him on the members list...

[RolandJP]

He's shown a killmonger-looking guy talking to T'Challa's sister. Plotting to overthrow BP (again)

Does anyone else find it funny that those who complain about reoccuring rogues love the countless Batman issues containing the Joker

[The Cool Thatguy]

Does anyone else find it funny that those who complain about reoccuring rogues love the countless Batman issues containing the Joker

Err...who was doing that in this thread? I didn't, nor did Zulu nor Hepone, IIRC.

[Alphaxman]

I don’t get it. Why are some people calling the Gangster Skrulls white racists? They do not hate the Black Skrulls because of the color of their skin. They hate them because they don’t agree on their gladiator form of entertainment. The black Skrulls only used black people because that what they saw that closely resemble what they were going thru after the rebellion. The Malcolm X character represents these Skrulls who don’t wait to lay down for the Gangster Skrulls.

Remember they are viewing Earth through TV air waves. So it not like there getting the whole story about ether group of people.

And another thing I don’t get and that’s the complaints about his continuity problems. Most are stating the first 6-10 issues. And I agree that he did have massive continuity problems but he has vastly improved on that sense then. How many errors has he had in the last 15-20 issues of this run?

I feel that most of his haters haven’t read an issue sense the first year of its publication.
That’s why I think that if he would have used all white Skrulls and had a white priest and a white police chief instead of Martin and Malcolm they’re wouldn’t be any complaints.

[HepOne]

Does anyone else find it funny that those who complain about reoccuring rogues love the countless Batman issues containing the Joker

I wasn't complaining about the use of Killmonger- I have only read a couple of issues with him in. It's just that whenever BP is being written overthrowing is the automatic 'go to' story with practically every writer and 'idea' thread.

[Post-It]

I wasn't complaining about the use of Killmonger- I have only read a couple of issues with him in. It's just that whenever BP is being written overthrowing is the automatic 'go to' story with practically every writer and 'idea' thread.

It also occurs with Namor because unlike Doom, who rules through sheer fear, heroes who are kings in the minds of fans must stay within their kingdoms otherwise there will be revolt.

[bluezulu]

I wasn't complaining about the use of Killmonger- I have only read a couple of issues with him in. It's just that whenever BP is being written overthrowing is the automatic 'go to' story with practically every writer and 'idea' thread.

------------------
I see what you are saying. I think. The last series was great I have every issue. It had a ton of critical success but very little pop success. A lot of the reasons for the lack of pop appeal has been fixed in this run by marvel (thankfully) Priest is cool with it however some of his supporters are not. Even when a lot of the continuity issues have been brought in line with the previous run. Killimonger was a great villian. In the old series. Marvel commited to making The Black Panther a world player in Marvel. Say what you will but

Silver Surfer in a choke hold>>>>>>> Getting your ass beat by Killimonger

Now us ahem thirty somethings wouldnt like that but I bet the 15 year olds thought that was bad ass all day long. Finaly the black hero isn't getting short changed in the action. Hmm some of those opposed to the bp rep boost claim they are fans of the character. He is getting mad respect now and they are mad. Strange aint it?

[Loren]

I don’t get it. Why are some people calling the Gangster Skrulls white racists? They do not hate the Black Skrulls because of the color of their skin.

Well, there was the segregated balcony in #32, and the general treatment of the black servant who dropped by. And while 'racist' might not be the perfect word for it, they're still white guys who hate black guys. Does their rationale for their prejudice make much of a difference here? Old-time racists didn't hate blacks simply because of the color of their skin either; to them it was a belief of genetic and cultural superiority, and with these Skrulls it's a matter of cultural superiority.

Remember they are viewing Earth through TV air waves. So it not like there getting the whole story about ether group of people.

Incidentally, there's room for good satire there, but Hudlin doesn't seem to be utilizing it. For instance, the black Skrulls have replicated Harlem, but with King and X present, even though neither of them had much to do with Harlem. The only way they could've merged the two was through an amalgam of different things they saw on TV. But there's no indication in the book itself that this was the case (such as through the mistaken inclusion of other wrong Earth characteristics), and seems more like lazy writing.

Heck, the mere notion of Skrulls reforming their civilization after watching American TV signals is pure hokey Silver Age material (even hokier than the original story), but Hudlin seems to be playing it straight, instead of for humor value.

And another thing I don’t get and that’s the complaints about his continuity problems. Most are stating the first 6-10 issues. And I agree that he did have massive continuity problems but he has vastly improved on that sense then. How many errors has he had in the last 15-20 issues of this run?

Fewer, but that's also because of the way he's written the last 15-20 issues. There's a notable lack of old BP supporting characters (i.e., none at all), so he can't go wrong there. None of the stories have employed T'Challa's history. Virtually nothing has been done with Wakanda itself. It's hard to get continuity wrong when your stories are continuity-free.

The one thing that he has done in the last 15-20 issues is briefly use a couple of old BP villains, as I mentioned before. And both of those contradicted not just previous appearances, but their most recent appearances. Zanda didn't bear much resemblance to her last appearance. The last time Man-Ape appeared, he was a rival warlord who murdered T'Challa's future self, and sent T'Challa into depression. When Hudlin used him, he was a drunken goof at the wedding. And his invitation to the wedding itself didn't quite jive with the whole 'Murdered T'Challa's Future Self' bit.

I feel that most of his haters haven’t read an issue sense the first year of its publication.

Has much been said about the first year in this thread? Even as much as I had to say about it at the time, I think the first arc can be safely ignored at this point. The Marvel character bios are ignoring that arc. McDuffie's use of Klaw ignored that arc. Hudlin himself has avoided referencing that arc. As far as I can tell, it was retconned away around the time of the wedding.

That’s why I think that if he would have used all white Skrulls and had a white priest and a white police chief instead of Martin and Malcolm they’re wouldn’t be any complaints.

Throughout this thread, I've been reminded of something Joe Kelly did in his JLA run. His run had plenty of political underpinnings, but two stories in particular were commentary on the use of preemptive warfare, in the wake of US entry into Iraq.

One was a two-issue arc with Kanjar Ro. The JLA got involved in an interplanetary dispute, where one militaristic alien race was trying to take over another planet to bring order. The JLA found itself with a moral quandary because neither side was particularly 'good.' My memory's too hazy for more specifics, but it was probably the best of Kelly's run.

The other was #83, a single-issue story where President Luthor wanted to invade a Middle-Eastern country because it supposedly had WMDs. This was undoubtedly the worst issue of Kelly's run, and it was absolutely savaged by readers, even those who agreed with its underlying politics.

Both stories tried to impart more or less the same message, but one did it well, and the other failed spectacularly. And the main difference between the stories was that Kelly put a lot more effort into structuring the two-parter. #83 was pure lazy writing: President Luthor was a stand-in for President Bush, Qurac was a stand-in for Iraq, and the WMDs were a stand-in for, well, WMDs. Luthor was portrayed as the clear bad guy, and the JLA served as a mouthpiece for Kelly's opinions.

And it's that sort of lazy writing we have here. Hudlin wanted to tell a story on a Skrull planet that evoked themes of the civil rights era. So did he create some new Skrulls to fill the role of the rebels? Did he conjure up a unique situation or conflict, or design some interesting new characters? No. He had the Skrulls explicitly copy 1960s civil rights advocates. Instead of designing new characters, he just used King and X. So his alien-set allegory ends up looking almost exactly like the inspiration he's drawing on, and the symbolism ends up being even lamer than Kelly's (which at least changed the names of the parties involved).

[bluezulu]

Malcolm X had a mosc (sp) in Harlem and actually has a world famous street named after him in Harlem today. He was a gangster there around the time of Bumpy Johnson and later preached on the corner where he once hustled. Beautiful place I hear and it is on my list of places to go before I die.



* How many of yall would ever thought Malcom x would appear in a Marvel comic no less then 2 times. Great times these are.

[XPac]

------------------


Silver Surfer in a choke hold>>>>>>> Getting your ass beat by Killimonger

Now us ahem thirty somethings wouldnt like that but I bet the 15 year olds thought that was bad ass all day long. Finaly the black hero isn't getting short changed in the action. Hmm some of those opposed to the bp rep boost claim they are fans of the character. He is getting mad respect now and they are mad. Strange aint it?

It's only strange if you lack objectivity.

Good wrting is good wring. I'm a fan of Spider-Man... I believe he is one of the greatest characters in all of fiction. But it's stupid to write him being able to knock down Silver Surfer or take multiple shots from Juggernaut. That's bad writing, and I don't particularly enjoy characters I like being written badly... even if they look good in the process.

Same thing with Black Panther, Captain America, or just about anyone else. Wolverine is a great example... as popular a character as he is, he's had feats which make even his fans roll their eyes over. A HUGE backlash against the character occured within some readers because writers overdid a few of the things with him.

You can make a character look good while still writing them in a reasonable consistant way. And a fan should be able to objectively realize that regardless of whether they like the character or not.

[HepOne]

------------------
I see what you are saying. I think. The last series was great I have every issue. It had a ton of critical success but very little pop success. A lot of the reasons for the lack of pop appeal has been fixed in this run by marvel (thankfully) Priest is cool with it however some of his supporters are not.

I managed to get most of the run off ebay and read the 1st 10 issues. When I came back home for christmas looking for more BP to read I found out it had been lost (read thrown away) in the house move by parents.
Lets just say I wasnt happy.

[HepOne]

Good wrting is good wring. I'm a fan of Spider-Man... I believe he is one of the greatest characters in all of fiction. But it's stupid to write him being able to knock down Silver Surfer or take multiple shots from Juggernaut. That's bad writing, and I don't particularly enjoy characters I like being written badly... even if they look good in the process.


Didnt he INFAMOUSLY knock out cosmic powered Firelord? You never know what will happen in comics- the outrage about the silver surfer incident was obscene

[XPac]

Didnt he INFAMOUSLY knock out cosmic powered Firelord? You never know what will happen in comics- the outrage about the silver surfer incident was obscene

Yes, he did. And that scene was so ridiculous, it's actually used to describe a rule on the rumble boards (SvFL exception). Again, I'm a Spider-Man fan.. but having him beat up heralds of Galactus head on is just silly.

Here's the thing... there's a character on the receiving end of that. He may not YOUR favorite, but he's someones. Good writing should involve on character being made to look good without the other necessarily looking bad. And you can beat someone without the other person looking bad. It's just a matter of writing them believably.

[Dagger]

At the moment McDuffie and Loeb are the only writers other than Hudlin who have even attempted to include them. They were included in FF by Breevort's editorial mandate, BP hasn't even had a namecheck in the last 8 months since Storm has returned to the X-Men.
Considering she's dealing with the death of her species, I'm thinking name-checking T'Challa will probably be the last thing on her mind.

[princesa]

I haven't gotten my copy yet but I have to say this book is pretty consistently good. Also I think its kind of odd to find fault with the ethnic commentary of the Panther when the X series are built on borrowing black and gay politic. But its not deep its just comics.

[Nevets F]

This issue, like all of Hudlin's issues, was of course horrible. No surprise there. I do enjoy seeing the sales fall drastically each month that it isn't forced into a crossover. Good times. Sadly, it will probably be involved in Secret Invasion, and Annihilation, and every other Marvel event to make sure it sells enough to stay alive for a bit longer.

[DattaBoy]

This issue, like all of Hudlin's issues, was of course horrible. No surprise there. I do enjoy seeing the sales fall drastically each month that it isn't forced into a crossover. Good times. Sadly, it will probably be involved in Secret Invasion, and Annihilation, and every other Marvel event to make sure it sells enough to stay alive for a bit longer.

So why was it horrible?

[Dagger]

Yes, he did. And that scene was so ridiculous, it's actually used to describe a rule on the rumble boards (SvFL exception). Again, I'm a Spider-Man fan.. but having him beat up heralds of Galactus head on is just silly.

Here's the thing... there's a character on the receiving end of that. He may not YOUR favorite, but he's someones. Good writing should involve on character being made to look good without the other necessarily looking bad. And you can beat someone without the other person looking bad. It's just a matter of writing them believably.
Exactly. His issue where he beat Juggernaut was much better handled than this story. Now Reggie should be taking notes from Roger Stern's old stuff on how to handle a solo hero.

[Loren]

------------------------------
I agree and for all the roadblocks this character book faces it has sold steady and predictable. Steady at 25k and double that crossover events.

Er, the first isn't exactly true. It can't be said to be "steady" for non-crossover issues, because for the last 15 months of solicitation data, BP only had 4 non-crossover issues. And those four were paired as two sets of two consecutive months, a year apart from each other.

To illustrate, #18 was a crossover issue, and a highly hyped event of its own, and it sold phenomenally well. #19 was not, and sales dropped back to 28K. #20 wasn't either, and sales dropped another 2K. Then #21-30 were all crossover issues. #31 was the first non-crossover issue since before Civil War (and the solicit still mentioned the Marvel Zombies, even though they didn't appear in the issue), and sales were 33K. #32 dropped another 5K off that. (Of course, #31-34 are still taking advantage of the FF quasi-crossover, but we won't count that.)

When the sales figures continued to drop in the thousands for non-crossover issues, they can't be said to be "steady." There haven't been enough consecutive non-crossover issues to even establish what the level is anyway. And even in those recent off-months, they only got as low as 28K, not 25K, so you're underselling your own position off the bat.

I bet the accounting department at marvel loves that.

I'm not sure why they would. Regular sales of 25K would tie it with "She-Hulk" for the second-lowest-selling Marvel Universe monthly, just ahead of the already-cancelled "Cable & Deadpool."

---

On a completely unrelated note, I find myself still curious about the "satire" thing. So I pose this question to bluezulu or anyone else, in all seriousness: if #33 is a satire, what is being satirized? What is Hudlin supposedly ridiculing or mocking? Where is the irony in the work?

[bluedmighty]

On a completely unrelated note, I find myself still curious about the "satire" thing. So I pose this question to bluezulu or anyone else, in all seriousness: if #33 is a satire, what is being satirized? What is Hudlin supposedly ridiculing or mocking? Where is the irony in the work?

I would have to say that the irony of his work is aimed directly at the fans of these message boards, those for his writing style, and those against.

Ex.

Issue 31 was something of a btween the line response to all the "Storm is Bi" debate that was happening on line, and Mr. Hudlin's way of addressing it.


The issue with the gangsta Skrulls can be be looked at from multiple angles.

The cover of #32 was the New team surounded by skrulls in whight gangster suits.

This is both a tribute to his his knowledge of Fantastic Four mythos, and could, possibly, be constued as an artistic expression of how the new team was recieved by some fans.

This is just MY take on it.

Just to be clear.

[Omega the Unknown]

With selected audiences he's famous for it. His town halls are filled with people who wont ask embarrassing questions. Anyone can deal aces from a stacked deck.

yeah, and Hillary has people planted in the audience to ask questions she has been prepped to answer.

just saying....

[SUPERECWFAN1]

The sales figures for BP #32 have came in. And its not a pretty picture. Hudlin managed to not hang onto any readers of the year long cross-overs and tie-ins. He's a failure. Sales are dropping fast to pre-Civil War ...

BLACK PANTHER
11/05 Black Panther #10 - 31,987
=====
11/06 Black Panther #22 - 47,556 (+38.8%)
12/06 Black Panther #23 - 54,762 (+15.2%)
01/07 Black Panther #24 - 59,971 ( +9.5%)
02/07 Black Panther #25 - 56,479 ( -5.8%)
03/07 Black Panther #26 - 51,385 ( -9.0%)
04/07 —
05/07 Black Panther #27 - 52,552 ( +2.3%)
06/07 Black Panther #28 - 61,808 (+17.6%)
07/07 Black Panther #29 - 55,027 (-11.0%)
08/07 Black Panther #30 - 48,478 (-11.9%)
09/07 —
10/07 Black Panther #31 - 33,673 (-30.5%)
11/07 Black Panther #32 - 28,426 (-15.6%)
6 mnth (-45.9%)
1 year (-40.2%)
2 year (-11.1%)I can’t see any way of putting a positive spin on this. After a string of events, crossovers, zombie appearances, and Initiative issues, BLACK PANTHER has been left to stand on its own two feet again, and it’s plummetting. Granted, issue #28 was a blip, but even when you ignore that, the series has lost roughly half its audience over the last four months.

That’s simply terrible, however you look at it, and it suggests that the audience for BLACK PANTHER is much, much softer than anyone could have expected.

[Beast]

With Secret Invasion is coming up. I'm sure we'll get yet another crossover to boost sales. :p

[Sean Whitmore]

For those people having trouble comprehending why anyone would find the BP/Surfer scene silly...you realize the writer admitted to not understanding the Surfer's powers, right?

People complained because it was a continuity error. (Wow, comic book fans getting upset over that? It must be...any day of the week!) Not because the Panther got "mad respect" or whatever dopey expression you wanna call it.


SEAN

[The Cool Thatguy]

For those people having trouble comprehending why anyone would find the BP/Surfer scene silly...you realize the writer admitted to not understanding the Surfer's powers, right?

People complained because it was a continuity error. (Wow, comic book fans getting upset over that? It must be...any day of the week!) Not because the Panther got "mad respect" or whatever dopey expression you wanna call it.


SEAN

That, and I can't imagine that Silver Surfer fans were pleased that the first time SS appears after a big, crossover push...he's struggling to hold his own against a human level character.

[bluedmighty]

As you look at the sales has anybody thought to themselves that maybe the sales reflect people that were buying the title "JUST" because of the crossovers and had no intention of buying the book after?

This is the longest running incarnation of the panther #35 sees an Annual for the first time in the character's history.

Say what you want about Mr. Hudlin and his writting style.

But 3 years, 28,000 readers, increassed visibility and Status in the MU, and an Annual with a character that had none of those things prior to him comming on board, makes alot of these arguments sound "Haterish".

The Man has shown and proved.

-Respect

[bluedmighty]

That, and I can't imagine that Silver Surfer fans were pleased that the first time SS appears after a big, crossover push...he's struggling to hold his own against a human level character.

First:

This happened under McDuffie's pen.

Second:

It was believable to me, because the Surfer had been drained of his cosmic power, The hold is said to work on humanoid physiology, and the Surfer (in comic) Said that he was interested in what BP had to say.

[XPac]

First:

This happened under McDuffie's pen.

Second:

It was believable to me, because the Surfer had been drained of his cosmic power, The hold is said to work on humanoid physiology, and the Surfer (in comic) Said that he was interested in what BP had to say.

Surfer wasn't drained of his power when BP put that ridiculous armbar on him.

I can understand Surfer wanting to listen to what BP has to say.

And there's no way BP should be able to even apply the hold to someone with Class 100 strength. It would be about as ludicrous as Batman slapping an armbar on Superman.

Surfer wanting to listen to BP is one thing. Surfer's arm being wrenched behind him with a clearly pained expression on his face however tells a story that is inconsistant with the abilities of the people in the scene.

Again, if you buy the notion of street level beings slapping submission holds on cosmic beings more power to ya... but I'm simply say it's not terribly shocking that others would feel differently.

[The Cool Thatguy]

As you look at the sales has anybody thought to themselves that maybe the sales reflect people that were buying the title "JUST" because of the crossovers and had no intention of buying the book after?

This is the longest running incarnation of the panther #35 sees an Annual for the first time in the character's history.

Say what you want about Mr. Hudlin and his writting style.

But 3 years, 28,000 readers, increassed visibility and Status in the MU, and an Annual with a character that had none of those things prior to him comming on board, makes alot of these arguments sound "Haterish".

The Man has shown and proved.

-Respect

'Haterish' When one points out that he can't keep readers? Actually, that's factual.

As is pointing out the general lack of a supporting cast, repeat villains and subplots, something he's had plenty of time to do. It's something that damn near every series itself has done, this far in.

First:

This happened under McDuffie's pen.

Second:

It was believable to me, because the Surfer had been drained of his cosmic power, The hold is said to work on humanoid physiology, and the Surfer (in comic) Said that he was interested in what BP had to say.

First, please point out where I placed the blame on Hudlin.

Second, Silver Surder wasn't drained at the time of the arm lock.

Honestly, I thionk the story in question was barely okay, dragged down by McDuffies' good intentions. He had killed Gravity with the intent of resurrecting him as Captain Marvel. When that fell through, Dwayne seemed at a loss how to bring Gravity back in a well written fashion. Just my opinion.

[Taskmaster]

Been involved in the Civil War.
Interacted on panel at the same time no less most of the major minority heroes in marvel
Had the first black marriage of super hero couples
Was a major player in the civil way
Has been involved more or less in almost every marvel cross over to date.



Just wanted to chime in on how false or misleading most of these are

-He was involved in Civil War for no reason other than to boost sales on his own book and didn't play a major role or much of a roll at all, not exactly a major boost for the charcter

-Most of the minority heroes? Not quite, he's interacted with most of the black or african-american heroes that Huddlin can push his views with, no the minorities, if it were the minorities we would've seen him hanging out wtih Sabra (Israeli), Arabian Knight - not a stereotype (Middle Eastern), Living Lightning (Latino), Jimmy Woo (Chinese American), Scarlet Scarab (Egyptian), Karma (Vietnamese) or many others including the african or african-american ones that don't fit in with Huddlin's world view

-Blatantly false about the first black marriage considering Herald (now known as Vox) and Bumblebee over in Teen Titans have been married for decades now

-And still to this day all his apperances in the major crossovers have been not as a part of the story, but using the story to boost sales on his book

It's a shame that this book is so bad, considering that Black Panther is one of my favorite characters in comics, but the bad writing and near-constant race baiting just really killed any momentum this book had at one point. I read a quote today that explains my biggest problem with Huddlin's writing (keep in mind this is just the biggest, there are others), its from an interview on Newsarama about the upcomming Hulkling one-shot by Brian Reed:

"I guess I don't understand why there should be anything special about my writing a gay character? It's the same as writing any character. If I was completely focused on a character's sexuality, religion, race, nation of origin, or whatever identifying trait you want to list, then they'd be a cliche and not a character"

and that is the biggest problem with Hudldin's book is that most of the characters are cliches, not characters

[Beast]

I read a quote today that explains my biggest problem with Huddlin's writing (keep in mind this is just the biggest, there are others), its from an interview on Newsarama about the upcomming Hulkling one-shot by Brian Reed:

"I guess I don't understand why there should be anything special about my writing a gay character? It's the same as writing any character. If I was completely focused on a character's sexuality, religion, race, nation of origin, or whatever identifying trait you want to list, then they'd be a cliche and not a character"

and that is the biggest problem with Hudldin's book is that most of the characters are cliches, not characters
Awesome and fitting quote. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. Sigged!

[SUPERECWFAN1]

As you look at the sales has anybody thought to themselves that maybe the sales reflect people that were buying the title "JUST" because of the crossovers and had no intention of buying the book after?

This is the longest running incarnation of the panther #35 sees an Annual for the first time in the character's history.

Say what you want about Mr. Hudlin and his writting style.

But 3 years, 28,000 readers, increassed visibility and Status in the MU, and an Annual with a character that had none of those things prior to him comming on board, makes alot of these arguments sound "Haterish".

The Man has shown and proved.

-Respect

Proven what.... that he couldn't hold a crossover fanbase ? Thats why they did the tie-ins/cross-overs. Read the Beat article. Had Civil War not happened Panther woulda died by now. This is Marvel just keeping a book around to appease a creator. And sooner or later the book will have to stand on its own.

Plus people will tell you Panther had a comic that ran 62 issues before and never got the hype/crossover tie-ins Hudlin has had to juice sales for his weak writing.

[bluedmighty]

'Haterish' When one points out that he can't keep writers? Actually, that's factual.

I don't really understand what your saying here.


As is pointing out the general lack of a supporting cast, repeat villains and subplots, something he's had plenty of time to do. It's something that damn near every series itself has done, this far in.


I agree. However, there's alot that goes on behind closed doors.
Sometimes writers are given a premis and a characer and are expected to make the most of it without messing up what someone else is doing.

It was never stated, but I'm almost possitive that BP and Storm being in space still, and out of continuity (slightly) has something to do with management.

Crossovers:

In BP's CW crossover we learn that it's his use of the Kimyo card and Monica's abilities that get the Anti-Reg guys into the negative zone supermax.
In BP he also outs Tigra as the double agent.
In Bp's next CW crossover we see Storm vs Clor.

However,

In CW I don't remember them crediting Panther with the entry plan.
I don't remember them saying how or why Tigra was no longer there.
I know Storm was nowhere even mentioned in the main CW books, let alone her battle with Clor.

They left that man out there.


First, please point out where I placed the blame on Hudlin.

Second, Silver Surder wasn't drained at the time of the arm lock.


First: I appologize. I quoted the wrong poster.

So sorry :D

[bluedmighty]

Proven what.... that he couldn't hold a crossover fanbase ? Thats why they did the tie-ins/cross-overs. Read the Beat article. Had Civil War not happened Panther woulda died by now. This is Marvel just keeping a book around to appease a creator. And sooner or later the book will have to stand on its own.

I have not read the beat article. Can't comment on that.

However,

It seems resonable to me that some people were just following the tags and banners and didn't really read the book before, and hadn't planned to after.

My self as an example:

Droped the FF as soon as Sue and Reed came back.


Plus people will tell you Panther had a comic that ran 62 issues before and never got the hype/crossover tie-ins Hudlin has had to juice sales for his weak writing.

I don't remeber their being a Panther that ran for 5 years and 2 months.
With no annual.

How many years between issues?
Who was the writer?
What kind of Stories were told?
What were the sales figures?

[The Cool Thatguy]

I don't remeber their being a Panther that ran for 5 years and 2 months.
With no annual.

How many years between issues?
Who was the writer?
What kind of Stories were told?
What were the sales figures?

Err, in the lates 90s Panther was written by Christopher Priest. The series came out on a monthly basis, the stories were largely political in terms of genre and very character focused and the sales figures were around 28K.

The difference is though, Priest had only two minor crossovers to prop up sales (Maximum Secirity and Deadpool a series he was writing), he had no backing from the Marvel offices and had no pull whatsoever (he was lucky to get Storm for a handful of appearances).

The series critically acclaimed though, which is why it lasted so long, I suspect.

[bluedmighty]

Err, in the lates 90s Panther was written by Christopher Priest. The series came out on a monthly basis, the stories were largely political in terms of genre and very character focused and the sales figures were around 28K.

The difference is though, Priest had only two minor crossovers to prop up sales (Maximum Secirity and Deadpool a series he was writing), he had no backing from the Marvel offices and had no pull whatsoever (he was lucky to get Storm for a handful of appearances).

The series critically acclaimed though, which is why it lasted so long, I suspect.

Priest's run was from 50 -62 if I'm not mistaken.

If the fans loved so much, and it was leaps and bounds above Hudlin's work, why'd it get cancelled?

[The Cool Thatguy]

Priest's run was from 50 -62 if I'm not mistaken.

If the fans loved so much, and it was leaps and bounds above Hudlin's work, why'd it get cancelled?

He wrote the series from issue 1 to issue 62.

And for the second part, sadly not all well written books sell well. Without backing of some kind, books that don't have line support eventually die. Given the average lifespan of books back then, and even today, 62 issues is pretty impressive.

[Loren]

Crossovers:

In BP's CW crossover we learn that it's his use of the Kimyo card and Monica's abilities that get the Anti-Reg guys into the negative zone supermax.
In BP he also outs Tigra as the double agent.
In Bp's next CW crossover we see Storm vs Clor.

However,

In CW I don't remember them crediting Panther with the entry plan.
I don't remember them saying how or why Tigra was no longer there.
I know Storm was nowhere even mentioned in the main CW books, let alone her battle with Clor.

If I can take a stab at explaining this, I believe this was the result of BP being a VERY late addition to the Civil War crossover scheme.

The Civil War mini-series was originally supposed to be monthly, but it fell behind schedule starting with #4. #3 shipped in July 2006, and had the rest of the issues followed as originally planned, #7 would have hit shelves in November 2006. Instead, #7 didn't appear until February 2007.

Now, November '06 was also the month BP #22 was released, the last issue of the "World Tour" arc. When originally solicited, the issue was not a Civil War tie-in. In fact, the solicit was phrased in such a way to almost sound like the War had ended, and what actually happened in #22 doesn't entirely match the plot description in the solicitation. Personally, I suspect that when CW began running behind, Hudlin had to alter his script so that it was set during, and not after, the SRA's resolution.

BP #20-22 ended up being designated CW crossovers at the last moment (significantly helping sales). And in August 2006, after Marvel had to announce delays for Civil War #4-5, it also announced (http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=80636) that BP #23-25 would be brand-new CW crossovers. All three issues, of course, shipped after the Civil War mini-series itself was originally scheduled to end.

So I don't see it as a surprise that Millar didn't go back to make changes to his script after the 11th Hour addition of three extra BP crossover issues. The fact that T'Challa basically only got a cameo role in #7 goes to show how important Millar thought the character was to the overall story.

[Loren]

He wrote the series from issue 1 to issue 62.

Nitpick: Priest didn't write #57-58. That was a fill-in arc by J. Torres.

[Daouda]

Priest's run was from 50 -62 if I'm not mistaken.

If the fans loved so much, and it was leaps and bounds above Hudlin's work, why'd it get cancelled?

Blue D What up.

Priest was the chief writer of the last series and it failed because it sucked.

I'll paraphrase an earlier post.

Priest used a white character named Ross and other literary devices as an answer to the question, "So, how do we do a book about a black king of a black nation who comes to a black neighborhood and not have it be a "black" book?"

Priest is clear on his intentions. The above quote is taken from his website here:
http://phonogram.us/comics/adventures/frames/panther_intro.htm

It explains the source of Priest's passive-aggressiveness towards BP in his stories.
Another page on his site describes how "I was so convinced, in fact, that PANTHER would be cancelled with issue #12 that I never wrote issue #13" .

After attempts to boost readership with guest stars and crossovers, T'challa is basicly removed, replaced by a half white American and the original BP is given brain damage. WTF?!

I think the reason the series didn't sell well was because, besides convoluted writing, fundamentally the writers heart was in the wrong place for heroic fiction. Priest was so afraid of offending some people that he gave superficial victories to the character but ultimately made T'Challa a loser.

An inoperable brain aneurysm.:confused:

You know that isht ain't happening now! And, to me, that's a comforting thought. :)

End quote.:evilsmile

Check out some of the other threads I've posted in BlueD to see where people stand on this forum regarding BP. Sinjection had some great posts also.


Excelsior!

Daoud

[DaeJi]

Blue D What up.

Priest was the chief writer of the last series and it failed because it sucked.

Yeah, it sucked so badly that it gained a lot of critical acclaim during it's run.

[Sanctus]

I am not surprised that mark Millar did not included Black Panther in Civil War. He and Garth Ennis do not appear to know Black men exist, unless they are being tortured, killed or picking on the well mannered if somewhat awkward White guy who will turn out to be a super skilled assassin able to leap all Black men in a single bound and grab the Black woman for a bedroom romp for good measure.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Blue D What up.

Priest was the chief writer of the last series and it failed because it sucked.

I'll paraphrase an earlier post.

Priest used a white character named Ross and other literary devices as an answer to the question, "So, how do we do a book about a black king of a black nation who comes to a black neighborhood and not have it be a "black" book?"

Priest is clear on his intentions. The above quote is taken from his website here:
http://phonogram.us/comics/adventure...ther_intro.htm

It explains the source of Priest's passive-aggressiveness towards BP in his stories.
Another page on his site describes how "I was so convinced, in fact, that PANTHER would be cancelled with issue #12 that I never wrote issue #13" .

After attempts to boost readership with guest stars and crossovers, T'challa is basicly removed, replaced by a half white American and the original BP is given brain damage. WTF?!

I think the reason the series didn't sell well was because, besides convoluted writing, fundamentally the writers heart was in the wrong place for heroic fiction. Priest was so afraid of offending some people that he gave superficial victories to the character but ultimately made T'Challa a loser.

An inoperable brain aneurysm.:confused:

You know that isht ain't happening now! And, to me, that's a comforting thought. :)

End quote.:evilsmile

Check out some of the other threads I've posted in BlueD to see where people stand on this forum regarding BP. Sinjection had some great posts also.


Excelsior!

Daoud

Well to be honest the prior BP series was always in danger of being cancelled. It usually got reprieves and no spin doctoring will make the fact that Christopher Preist never got the massive cross-overs and tie-ins like the Hudlin series had. It barely got any promotion. In fact if you'd blink you'd never realize Marvel published a BP title from 1999-2003. It was that bad.

Other writers who had the would they cancel my series or won't they was Deadpool . Joe Kelly woulda stayed on that book but Marvel seemed hellbent on canceling Deadpool at #33 . So Kelly took other jobs then learned at the last second he had gotten a reprieve. So how could you blame Priest for writing a #12 and not a 13 since he felt the book woulda died.

Of course as some will tell you Preist was doing anything he could to draw attention to Black Panther since Marvel wasn't doing it. So ya had that story-arc with the brain damage. He would propose things like the Storm marriage and got shot down.

The lesson here is... if your from Hollywood and you call Joe Quesada you can pretty much make the man allow you to do anything. See the following examples: Hiendberg , Smith , that Lost producer who never finished that Ultimate Hulk/Wolverine limited series and Hudlin. In case of Hudlin its comical.

Hey he produced House Party. That man is f-cking MADE !! At this rate I wonder if Quesada would give himself a stroke if he got Wayne Brady or the Wayons brothers to write Luke Cage or Black Panther. Plus I could see the fanbase defending them...

"I would have you know , Mr. Wayne Brady was in fact a great singer and lover of the arts."

"BP needed the attention. See we have stars like the Wayons who did White Chicks writing Black Panther now. See how urban it is."

I'm actually gonna say a prayer..... PLEASE Mr. Joe Quesada .. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE hire Wayne Brady to write Black Panther. He's from Hollywood and he was on Chappelles Show. Cleary he knows the urban demographic. So PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE make my dreams come true. Hire Wayne Brady...

[Beast]

I am not surprised that mark Millar did not included Black Panther in Civil War. He and Garth Ennis do not appear to know Black men exist, unless they are being tortured, killed or picking on the well mannered if somewhat awkward White guy who will turn out to be a super skilled assassin able to leap all Black men in a single bound and grab the Black woman for a bedroom romp for good measure.
Swap every use of black with white, and vice versa... and you have Hudlin. ;)

[SUPERECWFAN1]

I don't remeber their being a Panther that ran for 5 years and 2 months.
With no annual.

How many years between issues?
Who was the writer?
What kind of Stories were told?
What were the sales figures?

Err, in the lates 90s Panther was written by Christopher Priest. The series came out on a monthly basis, the stories were largely political in terms of genre and very character focused and the sales figures were around 28K.

The difference is though, Priest had only two minor crossovers to prop up sales (Maximum Secirity and Deadpool a series he was writing), he had no backing from the Marvel offices and had no pull whatsoever (he was lucky to get Storm for a handful of appearances).

The series critically acclaimed though, which is why it lasted so long, I suspect.

I've heard the run is bragged up a lot. Heres how much Marvel really promoted Black Panther....I would go in LCS and buy Wizard ect ect. And I never realized there was a Black Panther comic. That is some promotion.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Swap every use of black with white, and vice versa... and you have Hudlin. ;)

Didn't he have a story about evil white rednecks behind Katrina in some way ?

[Sanctus]

Swap every use of black with white, and vice versa... and you have Hudlin. ;)

Not so sure that will work as I don't recall the Black Panther, Hudlin's only book to date, ever engaging in intimate conversation with a non-Black women.

[Loren]

After attempts to boost readership with guest stars and crossovers, T'challa is basicly removed, replaced by a half white American and the original BP is given brain damage. WTF?!

Maybe I'm forgetting something, but I think there were only two crossover issues out of the 62 issues of Priest's series. #25 was a Maximum Security crossover (which, frankly, was an awkward fit that Priest had to work around), and later on there was a crossover with the relatively low-selling Deadpool, because Priest himself was writing both books.

By comparison, by #31, halfway to 62, Hudlin's series had had 15 issues (7-9, 18, 20-30) that were designated as crossover issues.

[HepOne]

Yeah, it sucked so badly that it gained a lot of critical acclaim during it's run.

Critical acclaim? It was hated just as much as the beginning of Hudlin's run and for the same reasons. It sold less than Hudlins run as well.

Someone will counter my point by saying ' no editorial support'.
I will say it launched with a variant by HOT artist Joe Queseda
It had better artists than the entire Hudlin run (except JRjr)- Texeria, Velluto
It was launched as a flagship as part of 'Marvel Knights' line
It was given editorial support from the start by Joe Queseda- head of MK which also included Smiths DD. BP is one of his favourite characters and the reason The Preist run exists is due to him. There is a story on 'the internets' somewhere where Queseda stood up for this book against the older guard (Claremont I think??) when they thought it would be cancelled in a few issues. Crossovers were not as prevalent as they were then- crossovers now are an attempt to get maximum sales from a limited fanbase.

I dont understand the hate this book gets anymore- Loren, That Cool guy and SUPERECWFAN etc. DONT read the book anymore and are still commited to hating it on the internet. Can we leave these threads discussing the issue to people reading it please?

[DaeJi]

Critical acclaim? It was hated just as much as the beginning of Hudlin's run and for the same reasons. It sold less than Hudlins run as well.

Someone will counter my point by saying ' no editorial support'.
I will say it launched with a variant by HOT artist Joe Queseda
It had better artists than the entire Hudlin run (except JRjr)- Texeria, Velluto
It was launched as a flagship as part of 'Marvel Knights' line
It was given editorial support from the start by Joe Queseda- head of MK which also included Smiths DD. BP is one of his favourite characters and the reason The Preist run exists is due to him. There is a story on 'the internets' somewhere where Queseda stood up for this book against the older guard (Claremont I think??) when they thought it would be cancelled in a few issues. Crossovers were not as prevalent as they were then- crossovers now are an attempt to get maximum sales from a limited fanbase.

I dont understand the hate this book gets anymore- Loren, That Cool guy and SUPERECWFAN etc. DONT read the book anymore and are still commited to hating it on the internet. Can we leave these threads discussing the issue to people reading it please?

Without complaining, half the internet wouldn't exist.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Blue D What up.

Priest was the chief writer of the last series and it failed because it sucked.

I'll paraphrase an earlier post.

Priest used a white character named Ross and other literary devices as an answer to the question, "So, how do we do a book about a black king of a black nation who comes to a black neighborhood and not have it be a "black" book?"

Priest is clear on his intentions. The above quote is taken from his website here:
http://phonogram.us/comics/adventures/frames/panther_intro.htm

It explains the source of Priest's passive-aggressiveness towards BP in his stories.
Another page on his site describes how "I was so convinced, in fact, that PANTHER would be cancelled with issue #12 that I never wrote issue #13" .

After attempts to boost readership with guest stars and crossovers, T'challa is basicly removed, replaced by a half white American and the original BP is given brain damage. WTF?!

I think the reason the series didn't sell well was because, besides convoluted writing, fundamentally the writers heart was in the wrong place for heroic fiction. Priest was so afraid of offending some people that he gave superficial victories to the character but ultimately made T'Challa a loser.

An inoperable brain aneurysm.:confused:

You know that isht ain't happening now! And, to me, that's a comforting thought. :)

End quote.:evilsmile

Check out some of the other threads I've posted in BlueD to see where people stand on this forum regarding BP. Sinjection had some great posts also.


Excelsior!

Daoud

This passive aggressiveness of which you speak? It included Priest passionately defending his take on Black Panther's one step aheadness, making Panther a respected and feared world leader and generally made him a bad ass.

His mistake, in your opinion, seems to be that Priest gave Panther what every good character needs. Flaws and weaknesses.

However, lets not not fall down that trap Hudlin fans like yourself prefer. This isn't an either or choice. Should Hudlin get the boot, the title would not automatically rebound to Priest. No, there are many skilled writers out there who could take over. It's just that Hudlin needs to shape up (unlikely) or ship out.

[The Cool Thatguy]

I dont understand the hate this book gets anymore- Loren, That Cool guy and SUPERECWFAN etc. DONT read the book anymore and are still commited to hating it on the internet. Can we leave these threads discussing the issue to people reading it please?

I like the character, plain and simply. Why should I be silent then, when said character is written poorly?

[Tobias March]

If Dwayne McDuffie cannot write Black Panther (he's a noted fan) then my dream of dreams would be to have BKV take it on. You just know he would serve up a smörgåsbord of political intrigue, espionage, international statemanship...plus fights against Giant Apes on the surface of the Moon!

[SUPERECWFAN1]

I dont understand the hate this book gets anymore- Loren, That Cool guy and SUPERECWFAN etc. DONT read the book anymore and are still commited to hating it on the internet. Can we leave these threads discussing the issue to people reading it please?

Maybe the fact the writer is a hack and well... after hearing so many horror stories of how bad some of the topics Hudlin does well... its hard to ignore. Marvel could hire a good writer like Brubaker or Rucka (who is PERRRFFFEECCT FOR THIS) and get a better written comic than what I've read described.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

If Dwayne McDuffie cannot write Black Panther (he's a noted fan) then my dream of dreams would be to have BKV take it on. You just know he would serve up a smörgåsbord of political intrigue, espionage, international statemanship...plus fights against Giant Apes on the surface of the Moon!

Give it to Rucka. The guy handled Wonder Woman in a political setting and made it good. Imagine Greg Rucka writing Black Panther. Its unlikely to happen sad to say.

[HepOne]

I like the character, plain and simply. Why should I be silent then, when said character is written poorly?

By your standards the character has been written 'poorly' for 33 issues. The fact that you no longer buy this book means that you are not the target audience for this book. The complaints about this book you and other people have can be attributed to the first 10-15 issues. People still enjoying this book cannot discuss it when others always bring up things like the Silver Surfer/Katrina incident. It leads people such as myself, bluezulu, bluedmighty Douda etc. just arguing in defense of it. This is not a positive messageboard experience for anyone.

[HepOne]

Give it to Rucka. The guy handled Wonder Woman in a political setting and made it good. Imagine Greg Rucka writing Black Panther. Its unlikely to happen sad to say.

Rucka is coming off an exclusive with DC are we even sure if he wants to keep writing comics?

[The Cool Thatguy]

By your standards the character has been written 'poorly' for 33 issues. The fact that you no longer buy this book means that you are not the target audience for this book. The complaints about this book you and other people have can be attributed to the first 10-15 issues. People still enjoying this book cannot discuss it when others always bring up things like the Silver Surfer/Katrina incident. It leads people such as myself, bluezulu, bluedmighty Douda etc. just arguing in defense of it. This is not a positive messageboard experience for anyone.

Nor was it when Hudlin, under a false ID, accused me and others of racism. But we get by.

And besides, according to you, this same type of discussion happened under Priest (it didn't, but hey). So it's your turn to take the lumps.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

By your standards the character has been written 'poorly' for 33 issues. The fact that you no longer buy this book means that you are not the target audience for this book. The complaints about this book you and other people have can be attributed to the first 10-15 issues. People still enjoying this book cannot discuss it when others always bring up things like the Silver Surfer/Katrina incident. It leads people such as myself, bluezulu, bluedmighty Douda etc. just arguing in defense of it. This is not a positive messageboard experience for anyone.

If something sucks... people will say it. If someone says Writer A- is a hack and sucks. It happens. I used to take up for Chuck Austen on a daily basis on his Uncanny run years back. I realized he was a writer who was never popular but I always defended the work of his I enjoyed.

And those who dropped the book would tell me. And it happens.

Rucka is coming off an exclusive with DC are we even sure if he wants to keep writing comics?

He's gonna continue to do his indie books from what I read. So I'd think he'd wanna perhaps do some books at Marvel.

[Loren]

Critical acclaim? It was hated just as much as the beginning of Hudlin's run and for the same reasons.

You're going to have to be more specific. Because from where I'm standing, some of the problems with Hudlin's run are (in no particular order, and not comprehensive):

thin characterization, poor dialogue, simplistic plots, ignoring Wakanda, not effectively utilizing T'Challa's status as a king, failure to plan ahead, a lack of continuing subplots, a lack of supporting cast members (or use of previous supporting cast), a lack of villains, an over-reliance on crossovers and guests (to the point where the book for the past year has effectively become "Black Panther Team-Up"), failure to utilize past Panther continuity (including having to reverse *himself* on the canonicity of his first year on BP; see "failure to plan ahead"), mysteriously dropped story elements (the Cannibal mystery has been dragged out for over two years now)...

I suppose I could go on, but that's enough for now.

Oh, and please note that none of the above problems have a thing to do with race.

I dont understand the hate this book gets anymore- Loren, That Cool guy and SUPERECWFAN etc. DONT read the book anymore and are still commited to hating it on the internet. Can we leave these threads discussing the issue to people reading it please?

Where do you get the idea I *didn't* read the issue? Were my earlier complaints about it not specific enough?

As for my 'commitment' to hating the book, I'd like to point out that my only involvement in this thread has been to respond to other posts defending the issue. I've responded in order to deflate what I see as poor or hollow defenses of Hudlin's work (e.g., that his writing is "subtle," and is good satire), or to correct mistakes made by others. I didn't drop by just to complain of my own initiative; I just refuse to let poor defenses of the book stand unrebutted.

[Xero]

As usual a Hudlin thread is dominated by a lot of loudmouths who either did not read the issue in question, or did not understand what they read. He extended and updated an old Fantastic Four story in a damned interesting way.

BTW, it isn't bad writing because you didn't like the story or what it had to say. Hudlin is far from a bad writer, just an unconventional one. He's already proven with the Fantastic Four stories that he is an extremely strong storyteller with a firm grasp of Marvel continuity.

He may not be writing a twelve year old white kid's black male power fantasy, but he is writing some damned good superhero stories, and if you can do that and slip in a message as well then more power to you. Most older readers had no problem with Denny O'Neil writing message stories in the seventies, so I can only assume that the younger generation aren't as enlightened. Or are white men the only ones allowed to examine race in a comic book?

[bluezulu]

Well to be honest the prior BP series was always in danger of being cancelled. It usually got reprieves and no spin doctoring will make the fact that Christopher Preist never got the massive cross-overs and tie-ins like the Hudlin series had. It barely got any promotion. In fact if you'd blink you'd never realize Marvel published a BP title from 1999-2003. It was that bad.

Other writers who had the would they cancel my series or won't they was Deadpool . Joe Kelly woulda stayed on that book but Marvel seemed hellbent on canceling Deadpool at #33 . So Kelly took other jobs then learned at the last second he had gotten a reprieve. So how could you blame Priest for writing a #12 and not a 13 since he felt the book woulda died.

Of course as some will tell you Preist was doing anything he could to draw attention to Black Panther since Marvel wasn't doing it. So ya had that story-arc with the brain damage. He would propose things like the Storm marriage and got shot down.

The lesson here is... if your from Hollywood and you call Joe Quesada you can pretty much make the man allow you to do anything. See the following examples: Hiendberg , Smith , that Lost producer who never finished that Ultimate Hulk/Wolverine limited series and Hudlin. In case of Hudlin its comical.

Hey he produced House Party. That man is f-cking MADE !! At this rate I wonder if Quesada would give himself a stroke if he got Wayne Brady or the Wayons brothers to write Luke Cage or Black Panther. Plus I could see the fanbase defending them...

"I would have you know , Mr. Wayne Brady was in fact a great singer and lover of the arts."

"BP needed the attention. See we have stars like the Wayons who did White Chicks writing Black Panther now. See how urban it is."

I'm actually gonna say a prayer..... PLEASE Mr. Joe Quesada .. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE hire Wayne Brady to write Black Panther. He's from Hollywood and he was on Chappelles Show. Cleary he knows the urban demographic. So PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE make my dreams come true. Hire Wayne Brady...

--------------------
Wow that post comes off super agressive. I mean I don't know what I am trying to say other then that is a lot of feelings for a book you don't really have to read. If more of you all who know this book backwards and m/f forward would follow through then maybe you would get your wish and the series would be cancelled. The spin doctoring around here is crazy. 28k is death bed but when Spider Girl, the Thing or some other fringe series were at these numbers it was the glass half full all up through here. Well the thread will probably be locked in a few more post anyway. You know how cbr does it.

[bluezulu]

Critical acclaim? It was hated just as much as the beginning of Hudlin's run and for the same reasons. It sold less than Hudlins run as well.

Someone will counter my point by saying ' no editorial support'.
I will say it launched with a variant by HOT artist Joe Queseda
It had better artists than the entire Hudlin run (except JRjr)- Texeria, Velluto
It was launched as a flagship as part of 'Marvel Knights' line
It was given editorial support from the start by Joe Queseda- head of MK which also included Smiths DD. BP is one of his favourite characters and the reason The Preist run exists is due to him. There is a story on 'the internets' somewhere where Queseda stood up for this book against the older guard (Claremont I think??) when they thought it would be cancelled in a few issues. Crossovers were not as prevalent as they were then- crossovers now are an attempt to get maximum sales from a limited fanbase.

I dont understand the hate this book gets anymore- Loren, That Cool guy and SUPERECWFAN etc. DONT read the book anymore and are still commited to hating it on the internet. Can we leave these threads discussing the issue to people reading it please?

---------------------
And I would hope that a mod would actually start modding these boards. I am close to pulling the race card as I am at a lost for any other explanation as to why a book that posters don't read or like the character would they actively work to sabatoug any discussion about the character. I remember when there was a ban on discussing the black panther or Hudlin. This is mad suspect and promotes a hostile environment. Fans of this book can not discuss this book without having posters like supercwfan whith the "witty black jokes" I know I know I don't have to come here right? Yea that is a real good attitude for one of the top two comic sites to take. Im starting to think when ever a positive thread as this one was for a little while starts some posters come in to "stir it up" in an attempt to get the thread closed, keeping this mess going.

* and no where in the Katrina arc was is said the fault of Katrina was because of "whitey" or what ever the hell was said. That is what I am talking about. A non-reader will see that and run with it and post it as reasons they don't read the book. I wish Qusada or Axel would state once and for all there position on all of this sh&)t. Oh wait they are the book is 33 issues strong and getting an anual for the first time.

[The Cool Thatguy]

As usual a Hudlin thread is dominated by a lot of loudmouths who either did not read the issue in question, or did not understand what they read. He extended and updated an old Fantastic Four story in a damned interesting way.

So everyone's wrong and you're right. Hudlin's story telling has been perfect. Then kindly, would you answer Loren's points?


thin characterization, poor dialogue, simplistic plots, ignoring Wakanda, not effectively utilizing T'Challa's status as a king, failure to plan ahead, a lack of continuing subplots, a lack of supporting cast members (or use of previous supporting cast), a lack of villains, an over-reliance on crossovers and guests (to the point where the book for the past year has effectively become "Black Panther Team-Up"), failure to utilize past Panther continuity (including having to reverse *himself* on the canonicity of his first year on BP; see "failure to plan ahead"), mysteriously dropped story elements (the Cannibal mystery has been dragged out for over two years now)...

Since, somehow, we missed all that.

[Alan2099]

As usual a Hudlin thread is dominated by a lot of loudmouths who either did not read the issue in question, or did not understand what they read. He extended and updated an old Fantastic Four story in a damned interesting way.

BTW, it isn't bad writing because you didn't like the story or what it had to say. Hudlin is far from a bad writer, just an unconventional one. He's already proven with the Fantastic Four stories that he is an extremely strong storyteller with a firm grasp of Marvel continuity.

He may not be writing a twelve year old white kid's black male power fantasy, but he is writing some damned good superhero stories, and if you can do that and slip in a message as well then more power to you. Most older readers had no problem with Denny O'Neil writing message stories in the seventies, so I can only assume that the younger generation aren't as enlightened. Or are white men the only ones allowed to examine race in a comic book?
It's posts like this that lead to these topics getting closed all the time. You were doing so good up until the last paragraph too.

One thing you need to understand. People don't like when others call or even imply that they are racist. Telling people that just because they have a certain skin tone, they are or are not allowed to do something or like something never goes over well.

Ever. Yet, Hudlin supporters and the man himself always cling to it like it's the most impenetrable defense in the world. "You don't like it because you're not black." "Only a white man would say something like that." "Oh, so the white guy can get away with this but the black man can't." We've heard it, and not a single person here is buying into that argument. Give it up and talk about what's good about the title, not "what's good about the title unless you happen to be some stupid white boy then you can just go to hell."

Look, it's bad. You may like it, but that doesn't mean it's good. I like Captain Ultra, but I'll never argue that he's a real outstandingly excellent character or that any of his stories are great. I certainly won't tell other people that they don't get it because they're not *insert race/religion/sexual orientation here*.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

--------------------
Wow that post comes off super agressive. I mean I don't know what I am trying to say other then that is a lot of feelings for a book you don't really have to read. If more of you all who know this book backwards and m/f forward would follow through then maybe you would get your wish and the series would be cancelled. The spin doctoring around here is crazy. 28k is death bed but when Spider Girl, the Thing or some other fringe series were at these numbers it was the glass half full all up through here. Well the thread will probably be locked in a few more post anyway. You know how cbr does it.

Look above... we just want a good creative writer. I suggested Rucka since he's handled politics and heroes in Wonder Woman and is pretty much better at writing comics and villains than Hudlin. To summon a phrase Stone Cold Steve Austin used to say with a spin on it to fit comics...

"Thats not a white thing and its not a black thing. Its the fact Greg Rucka is better than Hudlin."

28,000 and sliding fast. It was at 24-26,000 Pre-Civil War. The thing is Marvel's cancellation line is at 25,000 for most heroes books. Spidergirl is a rare example since it sells so well to teenage girls in those TPB's they do. Quesada has given that book numerous cancellation notices.... FANS PROTEST...and the book gets saved.

Spidergirl could have ended at least 4 times during its 100 issue run. Only getting last minute reprieves.

Come on.... not a fan of the man , the ICON Waybe Brady ? Come on Joe Quesada ... PLEASE PLEASE OHHHH PLEASE hire Wayne Brady. He's Hollywood. You'd love him and he can sing and dance around the Marvel Bullpen on slow days.

[Loren]

He may not be writing a twelve year old white kid's black male power fantasy, but he is writing some damned good superhero stories, and if you can do that and slip in a message as well then more power to you. Most older readers had no problem with Denny O'Neil writing message stories in the seventies, so I can only assume that the younger generation aren't as enlightened. Or are white men the only ones allowed to examine race in a comic book?

Y'see, this is why I continue to be drawn back into these threads: the accusations that criticisms of Hudlin's work can be boiled down to problems with race. It's a means of demonizing the critics, without actually responding to legitimate criticisms.

But heck, let's take on race for a moment. The reason Hudlin keeps getting slammed for his use of race in BP is, as I see it, not simply because he's examining race. It's because Hudlin seemingly only knows how to examine race in the most hackneyed ways. Let's take this story-by-story:

First arc:
Hudlin's aim: to set the US against Wakanda, with the US desiring Wakanda's resources. On its own, not a bad hook.
Hudlin's execution: to frame the whole story in terms of 19th century colonialism. It's a ridiculously outdated political framework, and it hurt the arc as a result. Hudlin also threw in the infamous racist general in the first issue, a character and comment that set up nothing and served NO purpose down the line. I don't think the general even appeared again.

Katrina arc:
Hudlin's aim: to explore the government's failure to respond to minority victims in New Orleans. Not a perfect fit for BP just months after he established Wakanda's staunch isolationism and with the US having just invaded Wakanda, but again, decent story potential.
Hudlin's execution: racist redneck vampires. Frankly, a neat idea on their own (probably the neatest idea Hudlin's had), but a terrible, terrible fit if he's trying to make a serious comment about race relations following Katrina.

Dr. Doom:
Hudlin's aim: T'Challa vs. Dr. Doom. Two of the MU's most intelligent and powerful men, mano a mano. Storytelling gold.
Hudlin's execution: how does Hudlin kick off the conflict between the two? Does he turn to T'Challa's nobility or ingenuity, or utilize Doom's egotism or depravity? No, he takes the easiest and least creative possible route to instant conflict: he has Doom suddenly go racist, and T'Challa and Storm react. That's apparently the best he could come up with.

Gangster Skrulls:
Hudlin's aim: BP and the FF go back to Krall, where they find the Skrulls fractured between the old gangsters and some progressive rebels.
Hudlin's execution: the progressive rebels are carbon-copies of 1960s American civil rights advocates, right down to two Skrulls who literally have taken on the personas of King and X. He doesn't even come across as creative enough to change *anything* about his source material: he retained the colors, the group name, the leaders' identities, and even street names. It's as if he came up with the idea of revisiting Krall, and thought to himself "OK, I have a planet of gangster Skrulls and a fighting arena with monsters. That's kinda cool, but what does this story need to punch it up? I know: really overt and unoriginal commentary on 1960s American race relations!"

That, in a large nutshell, is the problem with Hudlin's writings and race. It's not that he can't do it; it's that he seems to be incapable of doing it well.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

---------------------
And I would hope that a mod would actually start modding these boards. I am close to pulling the race card as I am at a lost for any other explanation as to why a book that posters don't read or like the character would they actively work to sabatoug any discussion about the character. I remember when there was a ban on discussing the black panther or Hudlin. This is mad suspect and promotes a hostile environment. Fans of this book can not discuss this book without having posters like supercwfan whith the "witty black jokes" I know I know I don't have to come here right? Yea that is a real good attitude for one of the top two comic sites to take. Im starting to think when ever a positive thread as this one was for a little while starts some posters come in to "stir it up" in an attempt to get the thread closed, keeping this mess going.

* and no where in the Katrina arc was is said the fault of Katrina was because of "whitey" or what ever the hell was said. That is what I am talking about. A non-reader will see that and run with it and post it as reasons they don't read the book. I wish Qusada or Axel would state once and for all there position on all of this sh&)t. Oh wait they are the book is 33 issues strong and getting an anual for the first time.

Well pulling the race card usually works for Sinjection.








Hold on I had to contain my laughter. Since we'd just ignore it...and all.


Axel and JQ's already gave their statement as well as others. They basically have backed Hudlin from the get go. So no worries. People will say it sucks , it'll drop in sales without cross-overs and tie-ins as we see. The fans will defend it til the cycle winds down. (Eventually it'll end up like the sad fate of Firestorm.... cancelled since tie-ins and crossovers could only juice so much sales...)

[bluezulu]

And lets not act as if this is all fun and games either. The staff of marvel do read these and other forums or indirectly people who are next to them do. Quasada said with the BND/OMD fall out a fan brought it to his attention the JMS comment. Hell JMS went to the net about his beefs. Remember the Patriot from Yound Avengers reaction about the MGH. The fact that he received real powers was a direct action from the internet so as a collective the internet does have a voice with these people. I want to know what is the reaction from this three years of "e-harrasment" lacking any better term for what is a considerd reaction to cancell a book from people who don't read it. All of the hate about bnd/omd I don't recall folks asking for the cancellation of Spiderman. They state that they will no longer read the book. God I wish some of you all would follow through. Just don't read the book. But the haters go into the comic shop, read the book they hate so that they can go online well informed in all to bash on the book. What is that about?

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Y'see, this is why I continue to be drawn back into these threads: the accusations that criticisms of Hudlin's work can be boiled down to problems with race. It's a means of demonizing the critics, without actually responding to legitimate criticisms.

But heck, let's take on race for a moment. The reason Hudlin keeps getting slammed for his use of race in BP is, as I see it, not simply because he's examining race. It's because Hudlin seemingly only knows how to examine race in the most hackneyed ways. Let's take this story-by-story:

First arc:
Hudlin's aim: to set the US against Wakanda, with the US desiring Wakanda's resources. On its own, not a bad hook.
Hudlin's execution: to frame the whole story in terms of 19th century colonialism. It's a ridiculously outdated political framework, and it hurt the arc as a result. Hudlin also threw in the infamous racist general in the first issue, a character and comment that set up nothing and served NO purpose down the line. I don't think the general even appeared again.

Katrina arc:
Hudlin's aim: to explore the government's failure to respond to minority victims in New Orleans. Not a perfect fit for BP just months after he established Wakanda's staunch isolationism and with the US having just invaded Wakanda, but again, decent story potential.
Hudlin's execution: racist redneck vampires. Frankly, a neat idea on their own (probably the neatest idea Hudlin's had), but a terrible, terrible fit if he's trying to make a serious comment about race relations following Katrina.

Dr. Doom:
Hudlin's aim: T'Challa vs. Dr. Doom. Two of the MU's most intelligent and powerful men, mano a mano. Storytelling gold.
Hudlin's execution: how does Hudlin kick off the conflict between the two? Does he turn to T'Challa's nobility or ingenuity, or utilize Doom's egotism or depravity? No, he takes the easiest and least creative possible route to instant conflict: he has Doom suddenly go racist, and T'Challa and Storm react. That's apparently the best he could come up with.

Gangster Skrulls:
Hudlin's aim: BP and the FF go back to Krall, where they find the Skrulls fractured between the old gangsters and some progressive rebels.
Hudlin's execution: the progressive rebels are carbon-copies of 1960s American civil rights advocates, right down to two Skrulls who literally have taken on the personas of King and X. He doesn't even come across as creative enough to change *anything* about his source material: he retained the colors, the group name, the leaders' identities, and even street names. It's as if he came up with the idea of revisiting Krall, and thought to himself "OK, I have a planet of gangster Skrulls and a fighting arena with monsters. That's kinda cool, but what does this story need to punch it up? I know: really overt and unoriginal commentary on 1960s American race relations!"

That, in a large nutshell, is the problem with Hudlin's writings and race. It's not that he can't do it; it's that he seems to be incapable of doing it well.

Thank you Loren. The whole Redneck Vampires made me chuckle. :p

[bluezulu]

Well pulling the race card usually works for Sinjection.








Hold on I had to contain my laughter. Since we'd just ignore it...and all.


Axel and JQ's already gave their statement as well as others. They basically have backed Hudlin from the get go. So no worries. People will say it sucks , it'll drop in sales without cross-overs and tie-ins as we see. The fans will defend it til the cycle winds down. (Eventually it'll end up like the sad fate of Firestorm.... cancelled since tie-ins and crossovers could only juice so much sales...)

-----------------------
I understood where Sinjection was coming from, but we have diffrent styles. The Pschology of what he would do to you all was classic. Naw the race card I am speaking of is to call the motivation for bashing this book for people who don't read it and admit it in thread but mods allow that environment here. And systematicly allow users to get threads closed. Check my history here. I never got too rude, disrespectful or out of pocket with any one here. So no, you don't have another sinjection. He is his own man. I think he got a raw deal being that yall gave just as much as he gave.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

And lets not act as if this is all fun and games either. The staff of marvel do read these and other forums or indirectly people who are next to them do. Quasada said with the BND/OMD fall out a fan brought it to his attention the JMS comment. Hell JMS went to the net about his beefs.

And JMS still has a job. Yes it hurts Joe since blame will fall on him for OMD. But lets be clear... he doesn't give a shit basically. He's even said so in Wizard years back on defending Chuck Austen. That he doesn't really listen to what net fans say. He doesn't. The only way he'll care is if the bottom line gets effected.


Remember the Patriot from Yound Avengers reaction about the MGH. The fact that he received real powers was a direct action from the internet so as a collective the internet does have a voice with these people.

Comic book character... doesn't fit in reality. Nice origin and all. I loved Young Avengers when it was around.


I want to know what is the reaction from this three years of "e-harrasment" lacking any better term for what is a considerd reaction to cancell a book from people who don't read it. All of the hate about bnd/omd I don't recall folks asking for the cancellation of Spiderman.


Isn't it amazing you keep thinking HIRE NEW WRITER means cancellation of Black Panther ? I mean hell... it happens. They at Marvel can hire new creative people without cancelling a book last I saw.

And get real.... jesus christ... people are saying they'll drop Spiderman. Many have given reasons why BP sucks the heat missle. People trash DC Countdown , have trashed Chuck Austen for years and now poor Hudlin gets critics like Loren examining his work and from what I read...well.... thats damn sad. I mean really... its harressment to wish a new writer on a book ? Its harressment to say someones work blows. I had better send Paul Dini and letter apologizing for bashing DC Countdown then.

They state that they will no longer read the book. God I wish some of you all would follow through. Just don't read the book. But the haters go into the comic shop, read the book they hate so that they can go online well informed in all to bash on the book. What is that about?


Its to see how bad it gets I suppose. I admit.... it happened with Austen and its gonna happen with books I pull at times. DC Countdown started out ok. Then nose dived to CRAP. I accept that...I'm sure poor Paul Dini sleeps well at night knowing I ...the IMMORTAL SUPERECWFAN1 hate his Countdown work.

[bluezulu]

It's posts like this that lead to these topics getting closed all the time. You were doing so good up until the last paragraph too.

One thing you need to understand. People don't like when others call or even imply that they are racist. Telling people that just because they have a certain skin tone, they are or are not allowed to do something or like something never goes over well.

Ever. Yet, Hudlin supporters and the man himself always cling to it like it's the most impenetrable defense in the world. "You don't like it because you're not black." "Only a white man would say something like that." "Oh, so the white guy can get away with this but the black man can't." We've heard it, and not a single person here is buying into that argument. Give it up and talk about what's good about the title, not "what's good about the title unless you happen to be some stupid white boy then you can just go to hell."

Look, it's bad. You may like it, but that doesn't mean it's good. I like Captain Ultra, but I'll never argue that he's a real outstandingly excellent character or that any of his stories are great. I certainly won't tell other people that they don't get it because they're not *insert race/religion/sexual orientation here*.

-----------------------
Thats not true. There is an active debait on his forums right now from posters who don't like his characterzation of storm so much. You don't have to like his writing but when you are told in so many words that you are not exactly the target audience then you are just not the target audience. Umm give me a name of say a country western singer anyone it doesn't matter as I don't listen to it. It's not exactly my thing but I am not going to sit here and say it isn't good music for some folks. This character/ black writers have not received across the board support no matter how you look at it, so at least Hudlin won't make the same mistake that Priest made compromising his vision to please yall because time has shown you won't buy the book anyway. I lol at yall when you say I would soo buy this book if such and such was writing it.

[XPac]

And lets not act as if this is all fun and games either. The staff of marvel do read these and other forums or indirectly people who are next to them do. Quasada said with the BND/OMD fall out a fan brought it to his attention the JMS comment. Hell JMS went to the net about his beefs. Remember the Patriot from Yound Avengers reaction about the MGH. The fact that he received real powers was a direct action from the internet so as a collective the internet does have a voice with these people. I want to know what is the reaction from this three years of "e-harrasment" lacking any better term for what is a considerd reaction to cancell a book from people who don't read it. All of the hate about bnd/omd I don't recall folks asking for the cancellation of Spiderman. They state that they will no longer read the book. God I wish some of you all would follow through. Just don't read the book. But the haters go into the comic shop, read the book they hate so that they can go online well informed in all to bash on the book. What is that about?

I can't speak for anyone else... but even though I'm not a fan of Hudlin I DO read BP on the rack each week.

I do love the character (despite what some may think simply because I am critical of the way he's sometimes handled). And I have actually enjoyed a few of Hudlins' story arcs. Civil War and the Zombie thing specifically. At the end of the day, no writer is competely one thing or another. Sometimes it just works for you and sometimes it doesn't.

If I like the character, I'll read the book even if don't like the creative team. I won't ever BUY a book I don't like, but I'll at least Byrne steal the thing if I love the character. And I think that's the heart of why people will criticize a book... they love the character, but not the writer. Odds are if they didn't care about the character, they wouldn't care enough to read or discuss that character on a board like this. But if they have strong feelings for that character, then it's natural enough that people will comlain when they feel that character isn't handled correctly.

YOu bring up Spideys OMD thing... and it's kind of the same thing. The people most vocal about the writing are the ones that care about the character enough to take it that personally. Same thing with BP I suppose.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

-----------------------
I understood where Sinjection was coming from, but we have diffrent styles. The Pschology of what he would do to you all was classic. Naw the race card I am speaking of is to call the motivation for bashing this book for people who don't read it and admit it in thread but mods allow that environment here. And systematicly allow users to get threads closed. Check my history here. I never got too rude, disrespectful or out of pocket with any one here. So no, you don't have another sinjection. He is his own man. I think he got a raw deal being that yall gave just as much as he gave.

Many put him on ignore since he was a one trick pony. Me ...well he made me laugh hard since his descriptions of Storm and Panther's love making made me shake my head. Poor guy...

[bluezulu]

And JMS still has a job. Yes it hurts Joe since blame will fall on him for OMD. But lets be clear... he doesn't give a shit basically. He's even said so in Wizard years back on defending Chuck Austen. That he doesn't really listen to what net fans say. He doesn't. The only way he'll care is if the bottom line gets effected.




Comic book character... doesn't fit in reality. Nice origin and all. I loved Young Avengers when it was around.





Isn't it amazing you keep thinking HIRE NEW WRITER means cancellation of Black Panther ? I mean hell... it happens. They at Marvel can hire new creative people without cancelling a book last I saw.

And get real.... jesus christ... people are saying they'll drop Spiderman. Many have given reasons why BP sucks the heat missle. People trash DC Countdown , have trashed Chuck Austen for years and now poor Hudlin gets critics like Loren examining his work and from what I read...well.... thats damn sad. I mean really... its harressment to wish a new writer on a book ? Its harressment to say someones work blows. I had better send Paul Dini and letter apologizing for bashing DC Countdown then.




Its to see how bad it gets I suppose. I admit.... it happened with Austen and its gonna happen with books I pull at times. DC Countdown started out ok. Then nose dived to CRAP. I accept that...I'm sure poor Paul Dini sleeps well at night knowing I ...the IMMORTAL SUPERECWFAN1 hate his Countdown work.

--------------------------
First of all I love the character the black panther. I have the whole Priest run. I did a google and found out that marvel was relaunching the Black Panther with Hudlin writing it. I love what every writer of Black Panther has done with the character except the crack in wakanda thing from Panthers Prey. No writer writes a book forever. Let's hope that when Hudlin moves on they won't cancell the series and put another writer on it who Loves the character. A white guy can write this character and do it well probably. Look at Bendis's Cage or JMS Night Hawk. They care about the characters and take the time to research and not write a stereotypical character. That is all I can ask from anyone. The fanboys have shown that they like there black characters but they only like them in neat tidy little boxes that they can deal with.

[The Cool Thatguy]

-----------------------
I understood where Sinjection was coming from, but we have diffrent styles. The Pschology of what he would do to you all was classic. Naw the race card I am speaking of is to call the motivation for bashing this book for people who don't read it and admit it in thread but mods allow that environment here. And systematicly allow users to get threads closed. Check my history here. I never got too rude, disrespectful or out of pocket with any one here. So no, you don't have another sinjection. He is his own man. I think he got a raw deal being that yall gave just as much as he gave.

'Course you understand where Sinjection is coming from. And even though he's admitted to basically being a troll (Sinjection: I engaged members of that forum in this "war" but did so in such a way as to make myself appear as intolerant, ignorant and racist.), you still lay the blame for threads going out of control at the feet of others.

No one put a gun to Sinjection's head and made him post what he posted. He didn't get a raw deal, he got what he deserved.

http://www.hudlinentertainment.com/smf/index.php?topic=2514.45

[Alan2099]

The fanboys have shown that they like there black characters but they only like them in neat tidy little boxes that they can deal with.
Blue, just when I start to respect your point of view, you come out and say something stupid and insulting like this. I only hope you didn't mean that the way it came out. I'd like to think you were smarter than that.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

'Course you understand where Sinjection is coming from. And even though he's admitted to basically being a troll (Sinjection: I engaged members of that forum in this "war" but did so in such a way as to make myself appear as intolerant, ignorant and racist.), you still lay the blame for threads going out of control at the feet of others.

No one put a gun to Sinjection's head and made him post what he posted. He didn't get a raw deal, he got what he deserved.

http://www.hudlinentertainment.com/smf/index.php?topic=2514.45

Damn and thats the most pathetic thing..sad to say. He couldn't post what he believed and actually presented himself without trying to play a troll. Thats what is sad...and if thats your hero... well darn...he sounds so heroic for teachin us lessons of being a troll.

[Daouda]

Y'see, this is why I continue to be drawn back into these threads: the accusations that criticisms of Hudlin's work can be boiled down to problems with race. It's a means of demonizing the critics, without actually responding to legitimate criticisms.

But heck, let's take on race for a moment. The reason Hudlin keeps getting slammed for his use of race in BP is, as I see it, not simply because he's examining race. It's because Hudlin seemingly only knows how to examine race in the most hackneyed ways. Let's take this story-by-story:

First arc:
Hudlin's aim: to set the US against Wakanda, with the US desiring Wakanda's resources. On its own, not a bad hook.
Hudlin's execution: to frame the whole story in terms of 19th century colonialism. It's a ridiculously outdated political framework, and it hurt the arc as a result. Hudlin also threw in the infamous racist general in the first issue, a character and comment that set up nothing and served NO purpose down the line. I don't think the general even appeared again.

Katrina arc:
Hudlin's aim: to explore the government's failure to respond to minority victims in New Orleans. Not a perfect fit for BP just months after he established Wakanda's staunch isolationism and with the US having just invaded Wakanda, but again, decent story potential.
Hudlin's execution: racist redneck vampires. Frankly, a neat idea on their own (probably the neatest idea Hudlin's had), but a terrible, terrible fit if he's trying to make a serious comment about race relations following Katrina.

Dr. Doom:
Hudlin's aim: T'Challa vs. Dr. Doom. Two of the MU's most intelligent and powerful men, mano a mano. Storytelling gold.
Hudlin's execution: how does Hudlin kick off the conflict between the two? Does he turn to T'Challa's nobility or ingenuity, or utilize Doom's egotism or depravity? No, he takes the easiest and least creative possible route to instant conflict: he has Doom suddenly go racist, and T'Challa and Storm react. That's apparently the best he could come up with.

Gangster Skrulls:
Hudlin's aim: BP and the FF go back to Krall, where they find the Skrulls fractured between the old gangsters and some progressive rebels.
Hudlin's execution: the progressive rebels are carbon-copies of 1960s American civil rights advocates, right down to two Skrulls who literally have taken on the personas of King and X. He doesn't even come across as creative enough to change *anything* about his source material: he retained the colors, the group name, the leaders' identities, and even street names. It's as if he came up with the idea of revisiting Krall, and thought to himself "OK, I have a planet of gangster Skrulls and a fighting arena with monsters. That's kinda cool, but what does this story need to punch it up? I know: really overt and unoriginal commentary on 1960s American race relations!"

That, in a large nutshell, is the problem with Hudlin's writings and race. It's not that he can't do it; it's that he seems to be incapable of doing it well.

I just want to say I liked the way all of these stories were written.

In fact, I'm currently resorting my comics and it's taking all day because I keep picking up an issue and can't put it down.:)

I think it's laughable that that your upset about Doom's simple comment when I, and I'm sure Bluezulu and other fans of the series, hear variations of it all of the time.

Our foreign policy is, of couse, colorblind and I'm sure there are no high level government officials who express themselves 'crudely'. Not including the Vice-President telling a congressman to go F himself on the House floor.

I loved the dialogue, characterization and interaction of the heroes in the 'Katrina' arc and I wasn't offended by the Vampires at all.

I've already said what I liked about BP 33 earlier in this thread. Of course, if the Skrull could imitate American criminals they could imitate American heroes.

Apparently the things that people like yourself don't like about the series I don't care about or actively appreciate. Things you think are "ridiculous" are coming from a place that I, living in America for 40 yrs, recognize.

It's not all about 'you'. The vast majority of comics I don't read or like but I don't have the time or inclination to critique them.

Hudlin's BP I do like.:)


Excelsior!

Daoud

[DaeJi]

You know, I bet if Hublin was fired and they got a new writer, Black Panther threads would never reach this lenght again.

[Loren]

A white guy can write this character and do it well probably. Look at Bendis's Cage or JMS Night Hawk. They care about the characters and take the time to research and not write a stereotypical character. That is all I can ask from anyone. The fanboys have shown that they like there black characters but they only like them in neat tidy little boxes that they can deal with.

Two things:

1) I'm not sure what research you're referring to, but then again, I honestly can't think of anything Hudlin's written that would've required any research. His use of the Boers in his first arc suggests that he didn't even bother to crack a book about South Africa.

2) Since you referred to them in the same paragraph, are you suggesting that Bendis' Cage or JMS's Nighthawk are black characters "in neat tidy little boxes that [fanboys] can deal with"? Because you just established that they're well-written characters, and they're both well-accepted characters (especially Cage), but then you throw in that last sentence contradicting all that. If you want that paragraph of yours to be internally consistent, either Cage and Nighthawk have to be complex but unpopular characters, or popular but stereotypical characters.

[bluezulu]

Damn and thats the most pathetic thing..sad to say. He couldn't post what he believed and actually presented himself without trying to play a troll. Thats what is sad...and if thats your hero... well darn...he sounds so heroic for teachin us lessons of being a troll.

-------------------
I did not say he was my hero. I don't know him to say he is my hero. He mirrored back what yall gave that is all. Did not ask or need any of you all respect. This is the internet. I have no agenda other then supporting a book and character I enjoy. Some of the posters here I have no clue what is their purpose. Folks want to post links and all but not once did I respond directly to Sinjections going to war comment. At Hudlin entertainment forums we long ago said we would not tolerate "baiting" at other sites and then bringing negativity back to the forums.

[DaeJi]

He mirrored back what yall gave that is all.

Other way around.

[bluezulu]

Two things:

1) I'm not sure what research you're referring to, but then again, I honestly can't think of anything Hudlin's written that would've required any research. His use of the Boers in his first arc suggests that he didn't even bother to crack a book about South Africa.

2) Since you referred to them in the same paragraph, are you suggesting that Bendis' Cage or JMS's Nighthawk are black characters "in neat tidy little boxes that [fanboys] can deal with"? Because you just established that they're well-written characters, and they're both well-accepted characters (especially Cage), but then you throw in that last sentence contradicting all that. If you want that paragraph of yours to be internally consistent, either Cage and Nighthawk have to be complex but unpopular characters, or popular but stereotypical characters.

---------------------------------
Night Hawk nor Cage have ever generated double digit post on the internet other then fans complaing about Cage being made leader of the Avengers or some Cage's various images and if they were sterotypical or not. You are smart but your problem is that you know it and the smug nature of your posting comes through and through every time. That in the fact that you have been pretty much said the same thing for three years says a lot. We have private conversations over on Hudlin's site where we wonder if the work that you have done for the past 3 years may have actually helped the book indirectly. What is the saying? Nothing sells like controversy or something like that.

[Loren]

I think it's laughable that that your upset about Doom's simple comment when I, and I'm sure Bluezulu and other fans of the series, hear variations of it all of the time.

Where do you get the idea I'm upset? I said it was lousy writing. I said Hudlin wanted to create tension between characters, and he resorted to the most elementary and hackneyed way he possibly could to do that. Do you disagree?

Our foreign policy is, of couse, colorblind and I'm sure there are no high level government officials who express themselves 'crudely'. Not including the Vice-President telling a congressman to go F himself on the House floor.

I didn't say it couldn't happen; I said it was bad writing. If nothing else, the scene violated Chekhov's Gun Law, because it was included despite adding NOTHING to the overall story. The character was introduced, named, had his moment of outrage, and was never seen or referenced again. The scene was useless to the plot, affected no one, and was apparently included only to make the reader see a US official be racist (but since he was immediately thrown out of the room, even that didn't matter by the next page). If you think it was a useful scene, why? What was its purpose?

I loved the dialogue, characterization and interaction of the heroes in the 'Katrina' arc and I wasn't offended by the Vampires at all.

Again, where do you get the idea that I was "offended"? That's not what I said at all. Heck, I said I thought they were a neat idea, and they'd be right at home in a Blade story. But Hudlin wanted to tell a story about the suffering after Katrina, and there's not much comedy value in that. By definition, it pretty much has to be a serious piece. Including redneck vampires as the villains of the piece seriously undercuts whatever dramatic potential the story had. Once again: bad writing.

I've already said what I liked about BP 33 earlier in this thread. Of course, if the Skrull could imitate American criminals they could imitate American heroes.

I didn't say they couldn't. I said it was lame. Remember, the notion of them copying gangsters was a really goofy Silver Age concept originally. Hudlin apparently wants us to take the notion of Skrulls imitating American TV more seriously, and it doesn't work. There's great potential in having Skrulls imitate Americans, especially comedy potential, but Hudlin decided to have them do something serious, even though it's inherently silly.

Apparently the things that people like yourself don't like about the series I don't care about or actively appreciate.

What, like characterization, dialogue, and storytelling competency?

[XPac]

---------------------------------
Night Hawk nor Cage have ever generated double digit post on the internet other then fans complaing about Cage being made leader of the Avengers or some Cage's various images and if they were sterotypical or not.

Course, odds are BP wouldn't be getting this volume of posts if not for the suppossed haters. I guess the glass is half full and empty, depending on how you look at it.

[Loren]

---------------------------------
Night Hawk nor Cage have ever generated double digit post on the internet other then fans complaing about Cage being made leader of the Avengers or some Cage's various images and if they were sterotypical or not.

That doesn't address the inconsistency in your last post. We agree that Cage and Nighthawk are complex and well-written characters. So if you're right, and "the fanboys have shown that they like there black characters but they only like them in neat tidy little boxes that they can deal with," then Cage and Nighthawk SHOULD be spawning huge debate threads with upset fanboys over their characterization.

But they're not, as you point out. Which means one of two things: 1) we're both wrong about Cage and Nighthawk being complex and well-written, or 2) you're wrong about fanboys only liking their black characters a certain, narrow way.

That in the fact that you have been pretty much said the same thing for three years says a lot.

Balderdash. In this thread alone I've made a bunch of complaints specific to this very issue, or on subjects that I couldn't have said three years ago (e.g., the failure to resolve Cannibal's subplot, the almost total absence of a supporting cast, the overreliance on crossovers this past year, etc.). That long list I made of Hudlin's writing faults couldn't have been that long three years ago; time has only made the list longer, as Hudlin has failed to improve as a writer.

No, this whole "you've been saying the same thing" is just shorthand for avoiding any of the substantive complaints I've made here. Even the ones I made in direct response to claims you made. You still haven't explained what you thought was satirical about #33, and you haven't said how you thought the issue was possibly "subtle," when it was remarkably overt and ham-fisted.

[DaeJi]

I would kill for a Cage book. I mean it too, I would literally kill someone for it. Probably one of you :p

[Sean Whitmore]

I would kill for a Cage book. I mean it too, I would literally kill someone for it. Probably one of you :p

I'd only read a Cage book if he were in a box.

Like, literally, that's the series. He's trying to break out a box and he can't quite do it.


SEAN

[XPac]

At times, I almost consider New Avengers a Luke Cage book. The way Bendis spotlights him, it might as well be called Luge Cage and his Amazing Friends.

[DaeJi]

At times, I almost consider New Avengers a Luke Cage book. The way Bendis spotlights him, it might as well be called Luge Cage and his Amazing Friends.

I think in a lot of ways it is Cage's book. Most of the New Avengers have kind of a weak reason for being there, but it seems to fit Cage.

[The Cool Thatguy]

No, this whole "you've been saying the same thing" is just shorthand for avoiding any of the substantive complaints I've made here.

Ain't that the truth. But lets not forget the classics like "Priest isn't coming back",because we all know it'd automatically rebound to him, "You just don't get it" when it's pointed out how amazingly out of date the symbolism is and "You're just a hater" when you point out that there's virtually no supporting cast, return villains of any kind and subplots. Classics all, without a whiff of substance.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

-------------------
I did not say he was my hero. I don't know him to say he is my hero. He mirrored back what yall gave that is all. Did not ask or need any of you all respect. This is the internet. I have no agenda other then supporting a book and character I enjoy. Some of the posters here I have no clue what is their purpose. Folks want to post links and all but not once did I respond directly to Sinjections going to war comment. At Hudlin entertainment forums we long ago said we would not tolerate "baiting" at other sites and then bringing negativity back to the forums.

Many here (myself for a Long....Long.... Long time) always tried being nice and debating him. His arguements though were easily broken down. No one gave a crap about his whole GOIN TO WAR march since really... whats he ragin a war against ? Bad writing ? Bill Cosby ?

But usually many of us would give him numerous attempts at being civil . In fact beyond me laughing at him ...(and telling him to be honest) I tried to be as civil as hell. Since there are rules at CBR and we all listen and obey them to the best of our abilities.

But check the posts here. Many would debate him...and really tried to be as nice as possible. The comment in my sig happened when he pissed off Bru.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

I think in a lot of ways it is Cage's book. Most of the New Avengers have kind of a weak reason for being there, but it seems to fit Cage.

If they ever go to 1 Avengers book again.... they should make New Avengers a Powerman & Iron Fist series ! I DEMAND IT.

[Daouda]

Where do you get the idea I'm upset? I said it was lousy writing. I said Hudlin wanted to create tension between characters, and he resorted to the most elementary and hackneyed way he possibly could to do that. Do you disagree?



I didn't say it couldn't happen; I said it was bad writing. If nothing else, the scene violated Chekhov's Gun Law, because it was included despite adding NOTHING to the overall story. The character was introduced, named, had his moment of outrage, and was never seen or referenced again. The scene was useless to the plot, affected no one, and was apparently included only to make the reader see a US official be racist (but since he was immediately thrown out of the room, even that didn't matter by the next page). If you think it was a useful scene, why? What was its purpose?



Again, where do you get the idea that I was "offended"? That's not what I said at all. Heck, I said I thought they were a neat idea, and they'd be right at home in a Blade story. But Hudlin wanted to tell a story about the suffering after Katrina, and there's not much comedy value in that. By definition, it pretty much has to be a serious piece. Including redneck vampires as the villains of the piece seriously undercuts whatever dramatic potential the story had. Once again: bad writing.



I didn't say they couldn't. I said it was lame. Remember, the notion of them copying gangsters was a really goofy Silver Age concept originally. Hudlin apparently wants us to take the notion of Skrulls imitating American TV more seriously, and it doesn't work. There's great potential in having Skrulls imitate Americans, especially comedy potential, but Hudlin decided to have them do something serious, even though it's inherently silly.



What, like characterization, dialogue, and storytelling competency?

Did you read my previous post?

You said you didn't like the series and gave your, to my mind feable, reasons.
I said I liked the writing and gave my simple view.

The only "purpose" my entertainment need have is that I enjoy it.

You seem unable to comprehend that people see things differently than you.

I'll repeat the part of my post you didn't copy.

Things you think are "ridiculous" are coming from a place that I, living in America for 40 yrs, recognize.

It's not all about 'you'. The vast majority of comics I don't read or like but I don't have the time or inclination to critique them.

Hudlin's BP I do like.:)


Excelsior!

Daoud

[DaeJi]

If they ever go to 1 Avengers book again.... they should make New Avengers a Powerman & Iron Fist series ! I DEMAND IT.

Naw, I would rather have a solo Cage (or Powerman, I've always liked that name) book and keep Iron Fist a solo thing as well.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Did you read my previous post?

You said you didn't like the series and gave your, to my mind feable, reasons.
I said I liked the writing and gave my simple view.

The only "purpose" my entertainment need have is that I enjoy it.

You seem unable to comprehend that people see things differently than you.

I'll repeat the part of my post you didn't copy.

Things you think are "ridiculous" are coming from a place that I, living in America for 40 yrs, recognize.

It's not all about 'you'. The vast majority of comics I don't read or like but I don't have the time or inclination to critique them.

Hudlin's BP I do like.:)


Excelsior!

Daoud

No one's trying to deny that you enjoy the book. But if you wanna debate it's merits...then you have to, ya know, debate it's merits. Otherwise, don't reply to those, like Loren, who are because you're not really having the same discussion he is.

...and if I had a nickle for every time that happened in a Hudlin thread, I could buy and sell everyone here!

[Sean Whitmore]

...and if I had a nickle for every time that happened in a Hudlin thread, I could buy and sell everyone here!

What, like slaves?

Damn, maybe the book's defenders have a point....


SEAN

[bluezulu]

As nothing new is being said here. I am done. Will see yall at the BP # 34 thread and oh yea don't forget the annual.

Next month then.

[Loren]

Did you read my previous post?

The one I quoted most of, and responded directly to specific portions? Yes, yes I did.

You said you didn't like the series and gave your, to my mind feable, reasons.

No, I didn't say I didn't "like the series." At least in the post you responded to, I gave four examples of where I thought Hudlin poorly executed decent ideas, and explained why I thought they were examples of poor writing. To which you responded by ignoring my substantive comments, and, out of thin air, concocting the notion that I was offended or upset by the things I was pointing out.

I said I liked the writing and gave my simple view.

And you made up reasons as to why I was complaining about those stories.

The only "purpose" my entertainment need have is that I enjoy it.

I'm not saying you can't, or shouldn't, enjoy it. Again, you seem to be reading something into my comments that isn't there.

You seem unable to comprehend that people see things differently than you.

Why do you say that? I'm actually pretty even-handed in considering other viewpoints, but I don't see anybody in this thread rebutting my arguments that Hudlin is a poor writer. Instead, responses tend to be along the lines of "I like it," or "You don't get it."

For instance...

Things you think are "ridiculous" are coming from a place that I, living in America for 40 yrs, recognize.

And I've been around for 30 of those years, so I guess you're referring to stuff that happened between 1968 and 1978.

Which, of course, can't be the case, because the only time I've used "ridiculous" in this thread (since you specifically quote the word) was to describe how outdated the politics Hudlin was employing in his first arc were. You recognize 19th century European colonialism in a way that I don't?

[Loren]

As nothing new is being said here. I am done. Will see yall at the BP # 34 thread and oh yea don't forget the annual.

Next month then.

Pity. 'Cause I'm still interested in hearing why you think Hudlin's writing in #33 is subtle or satirical. Hearing that explanation would certainly be something new. And you were the one who brought it up, after all.

[Sean Whitmore]

Pity. 'Cause I'm still interested in hearing why you think Hudlin's writing in #33 is subtle or satirical.

I'd like to hear a new John Lennon song.

Wanna bet on who gets their wish first?


SEAN

[SUPERECWFAN1]

I'd like to hear a new John Lennon song.

Wanna bet on who gets their wish first?


SEAN

I'd bet on John Lennon ....

[The Cool Thatguy]

As nothing new is being said here. I am done. Will see yall at the BP # 34 thread and oh yea don't forget the annual.

Next month then.

I'm curious, after 34 issues and one annual later, is that when you'd actually start talking about the merits of the series?

[Loren]

Ain't that the truth. But lets not forget the classics like "Priest isn't coming back",because we all know it'd automatically rebound to him,

You might have noticed it before, but did you catch who first mentioned Priest's name in this thread? bluezulu (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showpost.php?p=6061196&postcount=59), when he said "Priest aint coming back."

The other canard you missed is some variation on "You want to see the book cancelled." Because if one considers Hudlin a poor writer, it automatically follows that that person wants no BP book at all, regardless of who's writing it.

[GalactaSurfer]

I Just wanted to say that I think both side of the debate are right:
The people who say Huldin is a Hack are being severe by saying so but are correct in saying his skill level of writing isnt up to par with other pro comic writers.
The people who say the book is fun and enjoy the stories are right the book is fun meaning it doesnt have to be an intricate story to be good.

Ive collected the current series since ish #1-25 and think its had its share of ups and downs (like alot of other comics) some stories come across simplistic but you what the story is still fun, unlike a OMD where you have a complicated story thats good but lets you walk away with a lack of enjoyment.

The thing i dont like about this BP series is that its more of a Spidey/Deadpool kind of book than a Captain America/Iron Man type of book. Which I think most readers wanted from the title.


One other thing: to the people who've been stating that Hudlin is a Hack, ya come off a bit Haterish even tho some of your point are valid. I can help Imagining a raging mob ready to get their lynch on when i read some of your post and distain for Hud.

[XPac]

I Just wanted to say that I think both side of the debate are right:
The people who say Huldin is a Hack are being severe by saying so but are correct in saying his skill level of writing isnt up to par with other pro comic writers.
The people who say the book is fun and enjoy the stories are right the book is fun meaning it doesnt have to be an intricate story to be good.

Ive collected the current series since ish #1-25 and think its had its share of ups and downs (like alot of other comics) some stories come across simplistic but you what the story is still fun, unlike a OMD where you have a complicated story thats good but lets you walk away with a lack of enjoyment.

The thing i dont like about this BP series is that its more of a Spidey/Deadpool kind of book than a Captain America/Iron Man type of book. Which I think most readers wanted from the title.


One other thing: to the people who've been stating that Hudlin is a Hack, ya come off a bit Haterish even tho some of your point are valid. I can help Imagining a raging mob ready to get their lynch on when i read some of your post and distain for Hud.

I think one of the problems is that Priest left such a strong impression with BP, that a lot of BP writers hold that as the standard for what a BP books should be.

Hudlin's storytelling is so much more simplistic. It's almost like going from an Ultimates title to a Marvel Adventures title, for lack of a better analogy.

[Alan2099]

It's almost like going from an Ultimates title to a Marvel Adventures title,
Except that unlike the above example going from Priest to Hudlin isn't and improvement. :p

[GalactaSurfer]

I think one of the problems is that Priest left such a strong impression with BP, that a lot of BP writers hold that as the standard for what a BP books should be.

Hudlin's storytelling is so much more simplistic. It's almost like going from an Ultimates title to a Marvel Adventures title, for lack of a better analogy.

Ive just started reading/collecting the Preist run (please dot hate me for saying this) but i dont think its much better than the Hudlin run. LOL @ myself sorry but I know how much people like Preist run but some of the stories are meh boring although I probabaly havent read the best stuff just yet.

And yeah BP would be good Marvel Adventures.

[Sean Whitmore]

Except that unlike the above example going from Priest to Hudlin isn't and improvement. :p

I let you have that joke, y'know. I was, like, two seconds away from making it, and then I thought, "Nah, I'll give someone else their time to shine."


SEAN

[bluedmighty]

First arc:
Hudlin's aim: to set the US against Wakanda, with the US desiring Wakanda's resources. On its own, not a bad hook.
Hudlin's execution: to frame the whole story in terms of 19th century colonialism. It's a ridiculously outdated political framework, and it hurt the arc as a result. Hudlin also threw in the infamous racist general in the first issue, a character and comment that set up nothing and served NO purpose down the line. I don't think the general even appeared again.

The racist General represented a cog in the wheel that "loved" his job in this reguard



Katrina arc:
Hudlin's aim: to explore the government's failure to respond to minority victims in New Orleans. Not a perfect fit for BP just months after he established Wakanda's staunch isolationism and with the US having just invaded Wakanda, but again, decent story potential.
Hudlin's execution: racist redneck vampires. Frankly, a neat idea on their own (probably the neatest idea Hudlin's had), but a terrible, terrible fit if he's trying to make a serious comment about race relations following Katrina.

I think you may be looking at this wrong.

As far as Panther's involvement, I saw it as "someone had to do something."
Even if Wakanda and the US were on bad terms, at the time the US wasn't treating the NO like it was part of the US, going so far as to call the victims Refugees.

The Vampire thing is what brought Blade into the book and made his appearance needed. It provided an in story plot that allowed these 2 heroes to hook up.

This secnerio also alowed Monica to be involved and use her powers in an awesome way.

This scenerio also gives us the Thrice Blessed Armor

The fact that the antagonists were white racist (those do exist. racists not vampires) and the Protagonists were three African Americans may have felt a little weird to the average reader.


Dr. Doom:
Hudlin's aim: T'Challa vs. Dr. Doom. Two of the MU's most intelligent and powerful men, mano a mano. Storytelling gold.
Hudlin's execution: how does Hudlin kick off the conflict between the two? Does he turn to T'Challa's nobility or ingenuity, or utilize Doom's egotism or depravity? No, he takes the easiest and least creative possible route to instant conflict: he has Doom suddenly go racist, and T'Challa and Storm react. That's apparently the best he could come up with.

The thing that set T'challa off with Doom was that he didn't trust him, and Doom attempted to give the Panther an ultimatum.
He then tried to intimidate the King and Queen of Wakanda rather than let them leave.

This issue also saw the mention of T'challa's retractable armor and the fact that he has been working with Vibranium and advanced suits of armor since he was 12 or 13.




Gangster Skrulls:
Hudlin's aim: BP and the FF go back to Krall, where they find the Skrulls fractured between the old gangsters and some progressive rebels.
Hudlin's execution: the progressive rebels are carbon-copies of 1960s American civil rights advocates, right down to two Skrulls who literally have taken on the personas of King and X. He doesn't even come across as creative enough to change *anything* about his source material: he retained the colors, the group name, the leaders' identities, and even street names. It's as if he came up with the idea of revisiting Krall, and thought to himself "OK, I have a planet of gangster Skrulls and a fighting arena with monsters. That's kinda cool, but what does this story need to punch it up? I know: really overt and unoriginal commentary on 1960s American race relations!"

The brilliance of this is:
To my knowledge (and I could be mistaken) The issue of the Black Panther and the 60's group of that same name were hot topic back in the day such as who had the name first, and is that what Marvel's Black Panther stood for.

The editorial wanted to distance the character from the movement wich is were you get the AKA Black Leopard.


On this level, the Gangta Skrull mistaking BP for a symbol of their cause was actually kind of cool.

Here, Hudlin has the opportunity to Address this issue the way he and many other African-Americans would have or do feel about this.

By having Storm work with the Black Panther Skrulls, he is also making an attempt to put some soul back into the sista as it were. This is the first time Storm has been within page shot of a story where Political minded black people (i know they're skrulls, but follow me) are attempting to fight for a just cause.

But then again I could pull the "Universal" card and say NO body is black or white they are SKRULLS!!!!!!

This too goes to genious of Hudlin as many minority "A" list boards and "A" list WASP complaints often fracture into the "He isn't white. He's a Kree"
or "He isn't White. He's an alien" deffense.

But here (not your post but the thread in general), we see that it really does matter when the wet sock is on the other foot


What Up Daoud, Zulu, Post, erbody

:D

[Brian M.]

If you like the book and it brings you joy, more power to ya. I certainly ain't gonna wish it gets cancelled, it has fans who continue to buy it and enjoy it who am I to wish their title goes away.

:o :( Cable and Deadpool

[HepOne]

If you like the book and it brings you joy, more power to ya. I certainly ain't gonna wish it gets cancelled, it has fans who continue to buy it and enjoy it who am I to wish their title goes away.

:o :( Cable and Deadpool

I wish more people had this attitude

[Magneto X]

I wish more people had this attitude

Yeah. I just want the book to get better. Not canceled.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Yeah. I just want the book to get better. Not canceled.

And what makes you think that's not the desire of myself, Loren, et all?

Besides the fact that it makes it easier to dismiss our arguements out of hand, that is.

[bluedmighty]

If you like the book and it brings you joy, more power to ya. I certainly ain't gonna wish it gets cancelled, it has fans who continue to buy it and enjoy it who am I to wish their title goes away.

:o :( Cable and Deadpool

Big up Brian M.

I liked Wade and Bob. :(

that's sad.

I started reading the series when they did their team up with the NF4
And liked every issue after. Good fun.

[Magneto X]

And what makes you think that's not the desire of myself

I'm not saying it isn't your desire, just that it's mine too.

easier to dismiss

I think your point about:

thin characterization, poor dialogue, simplistic plots, ignoring Wakanda, not effectively utilizing T'Challa's status as a king, failure to plan ahead, a lack of continuing subplots, a lack of supporting cast members (or use of previous supporting cast), a lack of villains, an over-reliance on crossovers and guests (to the point where the book for the past year has effectively become "Black Panther Team-Up"), failure to utilize past Panther continuity

is rather right on.

Back to Wakanda people, please!

[kitamu re]

No one's trying to deny that you enjoy the book. But if you wanna debate it's merits...then you have to, ya know, debate it's merits. Otherwise, don't reply to those, like Loren, who are because you're not really having the same discussion he is.

there is no debate he enjoys the book. why would he debate with you about why he likes the book:rolleyes: you've stated you don't like the book, by debating with him why he likes the book will that bring some type of conclusion to your hate filled posts about the writer:eek:

I loved this issue and will go buy ten just to please my fancy:D

[The Cool Thatguy]

there is no debate he enjoys the book. why would he debate with you about why he likes the book:rolleyes: you've stated you don't like the book, by debating with him why he likes the book will that bring some type of conclusion to your hate filled posts about the writer:eek:

I loved this issue and will go buy ten just to please my fancy:D

I didn't debate why he liked the book. I was debating the merits of said book, or lack thereof. There's a big difference.

And I can't say that I'm surprised that I'm repeating myself here.

Also, outside of crossovers, Panther loses sales in the thousands. If you wish to make a dent in that, I'd suggest buying alot more than 10.

[Loren]

The racist General represented a cog in the wheel that "loved" his job in this reguard

But since he was immediately thrown out of the room, and never seen again, it's made pretty explicit that not only does he not represent the attitudes of the US gov't, but they actively reject him. In which case, what's the point of including him? Just to say that such people exist at all?

I think you may be looking at this wrong.

As far as Panther's involvement, I saw it as "someone had to do something."
Even if Wakanda and the US were on bad terms, at the time the US wasn't treating the NO like it was part of the US, going so far as to call the victims Refugees.

This is already tricky, because it's conflating what happened in the real world with what happened in the MU. After 9/11, other than an out-of-continuity Spider-Man tribute book, neither of the big publishers ever established that 9/11 happened in their respective universes. With as many superheroes as there are in New York, they'd look like chumps for failing to intervene.

Given the size and gravity of what happened to New Orleans and the gulf region, it would ordinarily stand to reason that the Big Two would take the same approach with that disaster. No one in the Marvel Universe reacted to the flood because, until Hudlin established otherwise, the flood simply hadn't happened in the Marvel Universe.

So that's controversy #1 in the story: Hudlin setting a serious, real-world tragedy in the middle of a comic book universe. Add to that his decision not only not to explain what the MU superhero community had done in response, but to imply pretty heavily that they hadn't actually done anything. This is naturally gonna rub a lot of Marvel fans the wrong way, suggesting that their favorite heroes all turned their backs on such a major tragedy. He could've gone the allegorical route, and written a story about a similar yet fictional tragedy (e.g., what happened in 'Aquaman' with Sub Diego), but instead he opted for the literal, real thing.

Once he made that call, there's only one way to tell that story respectfully and well, and that's as a serious story. You couldn't drop the real-world 9/11 into the MU, wrap a story around it, and include Skrulls as part of the plot. If you're going to utilize real-world tragedy, you can't just throw in fantastic fictional aspects at whim. But Hudlin did exactly that, and ended up trying to make a serious political statement about a real, devastating tragedy...while also including redneck vampires. (And their racism is irrelevant to this point.)

The Vampire thing is what brought Blade into the book and made his appearance needed. It provided an in story plot that allowed these 2 heroes to hook up.

Which only means that maybe including Blade in the Katrina story wasn't the best idea. Hudlin had at least plot points in mind here:

1) Tell a political story about Hurricane Katrina.
2) Tell a team-up story between Panther, Cage, and Blade.
3) Tell a story with redneck vampires.

#2 and 3 work perfectly together. #1 and 2 could work well together as well. But #1 and 3 don't. Their tones are at odds with each other. But Hudlin threw all three elements into the same story anyway, despite their inherent conflict.

This scenerio also gives us the Thrice Blessed Armor

To tangent for a moment, I'm not too keen on the Thrice Blessed Armor. T'Challa creating a super-protective outfit is cool, but he had a super-protective vibranium-weave suit in the last series. The main difference here is that the Thrice-Blessed Armor has mystical properties, and it's my personal opinion that the Black Panther shouldn't have magic-based toys. T'Challa is supposed to be a genius, and something of a science-hero. He shouldn't have magical weapons in his arsenal anymore than Batman or should. Hudlin, however, has seen fit to give him two.

The fact that the antagonists were white racist (those do exist. racists not vampires) and the Protagonists were three African Americans may have felt a little weird to the average reader.

Why? In one of the first multi-part Black Panther stories back in the 1970s, T'Challa fought the KKK. Not some fictionalized, MU counterpart of the KKK, but the actual, white-robed Ku Klux Klan. Why should readers thirty years later feel weird about racist vampires?

The brilliance of this is:
To my knowledge (and I could be mistaken) The issue of the Black Panther and the 60's group of that same name were hot topic back in the day such as who had the name first, and is that what Marvel's Black Panther stood for.

The editorial wanted to distance the character from the movement wich is were you get the AKA Black Leopard.

On this level, the Gangta Skrull mistaking BP for a symbol of their cause was actually kind of cool.

Here, Hudlin has the opportunity to Address this issue the way he and many other African-Americans would have or do feel about this.

By having Storm work with the Black Panther Skrulls, he is also making an attempt to put some soul back into the sista as it were. This is the first time Storm has been within page shot of a story where Political minded black people (i know they're skrulls, but follow me) are attempting to fight for a just cause.

Again, I think this is an instance where Hudlin failed to consider how his different ideas for BP stories would work together. And you've identified one of these above:

1) BP and the FF visit the Skrull gangster planet.
2) BP and Storm interact with the black civil rights movement.

The first of these is pure Silver Age goofiness. And Hudlin acknowledges that to the extent that he has the rebel Skrulls build a new society based on American TV signals. But the second, especially executed as literally as Hudlin has done, isn't a good fit for that.

And what's ironic here is that Hudlin has a plot device in hand that would permit T'Challa and Storm to interact with the REAL Black Panthers, not some TV-inspired Skrullian imitations. How easy would it have been for the Golden Frogs to teleport BP and friends to the American 1960s, where they would have met the real King and X, Storm could've interacted with real black civil rights activists, and so on. He even could have had some fun by having T'Challa inspire the name of the Black Panther Party, instead of just being confused with them. But no. Instead we have them interacting with alien imitations, teaming up to fight alien imitation gangsters. If Hudlin wanted to play the 'interacting with civil rights figures' for comedy, it might work. But since he's aiming to make a serious story of it, the dissonance between the elements brings down both halves of the story.

Thanks for the thoughtful commentary, btw.

[Alphaxman]

I find that it did work with in the confines of the story. These vampires wanted to take advantage of the situation that the slow response caused in New Orleans. They could kill a lot of people with few authority figures in there way to stop them. I haven’t read it in a while but I get the feeling that they wanted to kill as many blacks as possible to make it a majority white city.

If they were racist slave owners and when they were living I don’t see why they would change now after all these decades.

Maybe your views would have been different if Captain America and Gambit were part of the Team-up but I just think that he wanted four major black heroes dealing with something that affected black America in a major way. Now I know that it wasn’t just a black tragedy and it may be wrong that a lot of blacks see it that way but that’s something we have to deal with. Not one race is perfect and that’s one flaw that Black has to over come. Some of us feel that no other race (especially whites) can feel the pain and struggle that black Americans go though.

Now I can’t defend everything Hudlin writes but he is new to the comic game and I think that he is improving with every storyline. You may not think so and that’s your right but some like me feel that there are more positives than negatives in his stories.

I feel the reason why Black Panther (Hudlin in particular) is because race is involved. Plus some do come across as elites and dismissive in their views on both sides. Like when some call Hudlin a bad writer or a Hack when some enjoy his stories and find very few flaws in his work. Who is right and who is wrong?
;)

[Alan2099]

Who is right and who is wrong?
I'm right. Me. I called it. I got dibs.

Like somebody else said earlier, the racist vampires thing would have worked in it's own storyline. It could have even worked as part of a hurricane, but tying it to a real event, and then trying to use that as comentary on what went on, then tossing in the vampires just didn't work.

[Alphaxman]

Well to me it did. A city with majority Black people in disarray with no real help or a way out is a racist vampire’s wet dream.

[The Cool Thatguy]

I find that it did work with in the confines of the story. These vampires wanted to take advantage of the situation that the slow response caused in New Orleans. They could kill a lot of people with few authority figures in there way to stop them. I haven’t read it in a while but I get the feeling that they wanted to kill as many blacks as possible to make it a majority white city.

If they were racist slave owners and when they were living I don’t see why they would change now after all these decades.

Maybe your views would have been different if Captain America and Gambit were part of the Team-up but I just think that he wanted four major black heroes dealing with something that affected black America in a major way. Now I know that it wasn’t just a black tragedy and it may be wrong that a lot of blacks see it that way but that’s something we have to deal with. Not one race is perfect and that’s one flaw that Black has to over come. Some of us feel that no other race (especially whites) can feel the pain and struggle that black Americans go though.

Now I can’t defend everything Hudlin writes but he is new to the comic game and I think that he is improving with every storyline. You may not think so and that’s your right but some like me feel that there are more positives than negatives in his stories.

I feel the reason why Black Panther (Hudlin in particular) is because race is involved. Plus some do come across as elites and dismissive in their views on both sides. Like when some call Hudlin a bad writer or a Hack when some enjoy his stories and find very few flaws in his work. Who is right and who is wrong?
;)

Why do you automatically assume racism on Loren's part, when his remarks dealt solely with story dynamics and not cast makeup?

[Sean Whitmore]

Maybe your views would have been different if Captain America and Gambit were part of the Team-up

That's offensive.

Gambit isn't even pure white, he's some dirty French mix. Loren couldn't like a story with him in it.


SEAN

[RolandJP]

Well to me it did. A city with majority Black people in disarray with no real help or a way out is a racist vampire’s wet dream.


At least it isnt South African like Apartheid

[Loren]

That's offensive.

Gambit isn't even pure white, he's some dirty French mix. Loren couldn't like a story with him in it.

I tell ya, all that romancing he did on that sweet little Southern belle Rogue took years off my life, it did.

And don't even get me started on Bishop. Lousy abo.

[Loren]

Why do you automatically assume racism on Loren's part, when his remarks dealt solely with story dynamics and not cast makeup?

I've become increasingly convinced that I could produce a full thesis on the literary failings of Hudlin's writing, complete with quotes, sources and citations, and the reaction would still be "These are the same old complaints haters have made for years" and "You don't understand black culture."

[Brian M.]

That's offensive.

Gambit isn't even pure white, he's some dirty French mix. Loren couldn't like a story with him in it.


SEAN

I hate French people.

It's my one weakness.

I'm completely bias against the French. Well hippies too, but honestly, don't let me get started on that rant.

[Loren]

I hate French people.

It's my one weakness.

I'm completely bias against the French. Well hippies too, but honestly, don't let me get started on that rant.

Something tells me you'd have to restrain yourself in the presence of a beret-wearing beatnik.

[Brian M.]

Something tells me you'd have to restrain yourself in the presence of a beret-wearing beatnik.

I'd probably treat'm like that Tiger did that kid in San Fran.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Something tells me you'd have to restrain yourself in the presence of a beret-wearing beatnik.

...who doesn't?

[Alphaxman]

Why do you automatically assume racism on Loren's part, when his remarks dealt solely with story dynamics and not cast makeup?

I didn’t assume racism on anyone. One of the points made was that Hudlin didn’t evolve more heroes after the hurricane. And the only reason I included Captain America was because he represents America and would have been down there as a character stand point and Gambit because he is from New Orleans.

Maybe it was racist of Hudlin to not have more heroes respond to the tragedy but that was the story he wanted to tell. He wanted a group of Black superheroes gathering together to fight a common foe. Black Panther and Cage already were together, Blade was fighting the Vampires take advantage of the tragedy and Brother Blood and Monica (Photon) ether from New Orleans or make their base there. Maybe He should have included Gambit.

[Brian M.]

Big up Brian M.

I liked Wade and Bob. :(

that's sad.

I started reading the series when they did their team up with the NF4
And liked every issue after. Good fun.

That was actually kinda a fun issue.

I may not like the stories being told in BP but I sure as hell don't want folks to lose their book. I use to take that attitude in the past, but once I heard Cable and Deadpool was being cancelled and it being a book that is in the top of my read list every month, I don't want anyone else to get that feeling.

[The Cool Thatguy]

I didn’t assume racism on anyone. One of the points made was that Hudlin didn’t evolve more heroes after the hurricane. And the only reason I included Captain America was because he represents America and would have been down there as a character stand point and Gambit because he is from New Orleans.

Maybe it was racist of Hudlin to not have more heroes respond to the tragedy but that was the story he wanted to tell. He wanted a group of Black superheroes gathering together to fight a common foe. Black Panther and Cage already were together, Blade was fighting the Vampires take advantage of the tragedy and Brother Blood and Monica (Photon) ether from New Orleans or make their base there. Maybe He should have included Gambit.

You did, actually. You assumed that Loren took issue with the story because those involved were solely African American, and that the story would have been more acceptable to him if the heroes in question were white.

At no time did Loren state he thought the story was a poor one simply because those involved were all African american. Yet that's what you stated when discussing what you thought to be his stance.

[RolandJP]

Racist/Racism--Webster's dictionary describes racist or racism as the belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others. AlphaX did not state anywhere that anyone was superior to anyone else.

[Alphaxman]

No I was speaking from this quote: “Given the size and gravity of what happened to New Orleans and the gulf region, it would ordinarily stand to reason that the Big Two would take the same approach with that disaster. No one in the Marvel Universe reacted to the flood because, until Hudlin established otherwise, the flood simply hadn't happened in the Marvel Universe.
So that's controversy #1 in the story: Hudlin setting a serious, real-world tragedy in the middle of a comic book universe. Add to that his decision not only not to explain what the MU superhero community had done in response, but to imply pretty heavily that they hadn't actually done anything. This is naturally going to rub a lot of Marvel fans the wrong way, suggesting that their favorite heroes all turned their backs on such a major tragedy. He could've gone the allegorical route, and written a story about a similar yet fictional tragedy (e.g., what happened in 'Aquaman' with Sub Diego), but instead he opted for the literal, real thing.”


Most of the heroes were there in the 911 story done in Spider-Man, and at the aftermath that happened in the fictional Stamford that kicked of the Civil War.

I was just stating that if maybe most of the heroes were involve in the clean up and rescue of New Orleans some wouldn’t have taken issue with the story. But that wasn’t what Hudlin wanted to tell in his story.

I’m not saying that you must be a racist person if you didn’t like the story as is or that it was racist that only black super-heroes were involved in the issue. I just guess that more might have like it better if Hudlin was more inclusive in his story telling.

[Jackob]

Yeah. I just want the book to get better. Not canceled.

yeah this is me too, i love BP character but the book is just not what it could be.

[Loren]

I was just stating that if maybe most of the heroes were involve in the clean up and rescue of New Orleans some wouldn’t have taken issue with the story.

Well, kind of, but not because of race.

Imagine the same thing playing out in the DC Universe. Just like nobody wrote 9/11 into the DCU, nobody does the same with Hurricane Katrina. That is, until the author of "Aquaman" decides to do just that. Instead of creating Sub Diego, Will Pfeifer has Aquaman show up in the aftermath of Katrina to help all the victims who have been ignored.

This, naturally, is going to imply that the rest of the superheroes in the DCU are massive jerks, for turning a blind eye to our real-world tragedy. And it's not even a native hero who comes to the rescue; it's an outsider. The question suddenly becomes: where was the JLA during all this? Where was the JSA? Where were the Titans? Where were the local New Orleans superheroes all this time? Why did not only the gov't, but the entire superhuman community, completely ignore the suffering until Aquaman dropped by?

Sub Diego works because it's a fictional event that functionally only exists in Aquaman's little corner of the DCU, so it's to be expected that the JLA didn't drop by. It's also possible, with a good enough writer, to convince the audience to suspend its disbelief enough to accept that heroes might ignore a localized crisis even though a local hero doesn't. Such as making Katrina into a Swamp Thing story. That's what happened in Batman's "No Man's Land." And, of course, one of the major plot holes in that story was: why doesn't the JLA do anything to help these people? They attempted a couple of stories to explain that away (Hudlin didn't bother with such explanations), but in the end, enjoying NML meant that you simply had to forget and ignore that the Batman books took place in a world filled with people who could've fixed Gotham's problems inside of a week.

Hudlin, of course, undercut even that angle by making his BP Katrina story a team-up book, with four heroes who'd never teamed up before. He was explicitly acknowledging and utilizing a wider world of superheroes, while simultaneously wanting the reader to ignore that such a wider world existed.

It wouldn't have made a difference if the Katrina story had been written by Chuck Austen and starred Iron Man. It still would've been poor form for a book set in a wider superhero universe.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Racist/Racism--Webster's dictionary describes racist or racism as the belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others. AlphaX did not state anywhere that anyone was superior to anyone else.

It's also prejudice to assume that someone's attitude stems from race. That's what AlphaX did.

[HepOne]

Hudlin, of course, undercut even that angle by making his BP Katrina story a team-up book, with four heroes who'd never teamed up before.

They had teamed up before In the Priest run but not as a complete forsome if I recall. Priest made sure that there was a reason for all the characters to be there. Blade and Brother Voodoo (a New Orleans native) were there hunting vampires preying on the displaced. Photon (a new orleans Native) was looking for her family. Cage and BP were returning from China and BP thought it was a diplomatic mission.

He was explicitly acknowledging and utilizing a wider world of superheroes, while simultaneously wanting the reader to ignore that such a wider world existed.

Marvel does this ALL the time- AMS #36? Doom crying? Apartheid? Vietnam War? World War 2? Concentration camps? Magneto? etc. Even in a comics world the superheroes are always somewhere else- Annihilation? Genosha?


It wouldn't have made a difference if the Katrina story had been written by Chuck Austen and starred Iron Man. It still would've been poor form for a book set in a wider superhero universe.

What about when JMS does it with Thor? He had a fight with Iron Man in the ruins destroying more of New Orleans. After that there was a part where one of the displaced was relvealed to be Heimidall. The reason he had felt lost was because he was no longer an asgardian, and not because of Hurricane Katrina. I dont recall as much outrage for this issue.

[The Cool Thatguy]

They had teamed up before In the Priest run but not as a complete forsome if I recall. Priest made sure that there was a reason for all the characters to be there. Blade and Brother Voodoo (a New Orleans native) were there hunting vampires preying on the displaced. Photon (a new orleans Native) was looking for her family. Cage and BP were returning from China and BP thought it was a diplomatic mission.

Cage had met Brother Voodoo back then, not Blade and Photon wasn't part of that teamup, actually.

And really, it seems odd for Panther to perform a diplomatic mission for a country that had just tried to invade his.

Marvel does this ALL the time- AMS #36? Doom crying? Apartheid? Vietnam War? World War 2? Concentration camps? Magneto? etc. Even in a comics world the superheroes are always somewhere else- Annihilation? Genosha?.

IIRC, as Loren said, AMS 36 was out of continuity.

I have to disagree with Loren here, in that I do think natural disasters and such happened in the fictional world. As you said, heroes are always busy elsewhere, and without such events comics set in the modern day lose their relevance.

But that said, such issues should be addressed carefully, thoughtfully all the time and every time. Otherwise, it's like saying to the victims of 9/11, Katrina et all that all they need to be okay is some brightly colored people in spandex.

What about when JMS does it with Thor? He had a fight with Iron Man in the ruins destroying more of New Orleans. After that there was a part where one of the displaced was relvealed to be Heimidall. The reason he had felt lost was because he was no longer an asgardian, and not because of Hurricane Katrina. I dont recall as much outrage for this issue.

If Loren opposes the depiction of Katrina in fictional settings across the board, what on earth makes you think he's okay with the Thor issue?

And I remember alot of people getting riled up about JMS basically laying the blame for Katrina on the Pro Registration guys. It's just that JMS doesn't have Hudlin's history, is all.

[Loren]

They had teamed up before In the Priest run but not as a complete forsome if I recall.

Priest had had BP interact with Cage and Voodoo, but not Photon or Blade.

Blade and Brother Voodoo (a New Orleans native) were there hunting vampires preying on the displaced. Photon (a new orleans Native) was looking for her family.

Fair enough. Hudlin's not so poor a writer that he just had all his characters randomly show up without explanation. But his reason for Blade and Voodoo is still bothersome, because it's a justification that he created for having a BP/Blade team-up. Which would be great on its own, but as I pointed out before, he decided to lay that vampire-fighting team-up on top of a serious Katrina story.

Marvel does this ALL the time- AMS #36? Doom crying?

Ah, but Marvel explicitly set that issue outside regular continuity, and even within the issue made it a 'all the Marvel heroes come together' thing. And don't you recall how many people found the 'Doom crying' bit to be unintentionally hilarious, considering what he himself had done in the past?

Apartheid? Vietnam War? World War 2? Concentration camps?

And 'Hitman' employed the Gulf War too. I think the reason those end up in comics is because we want the broad strokes of our fictional universes to resemble our own. Once you go down the road of removing large and formative chunks of international history, you're looking at full-scale alternate histories.

But I maintain that there's a difference with American comic books setting specifically American tragedies in superhero universes. The Challenger explosion didn't make its way into the MU or DCU. Instead, it got tweaked and altered, and wound up in "Man of Steel"...where Superman saved it.

But Hudlin didn't alter it. He had Katrina happen, and he implied that no one cared. Maybe he could have pulled it off if he'd left it at that, and tried to tell a dramatic story about BP and friends trying to help New Orleans. But no, he went and threw in redneck vampires to boot.

Magneto? etc. Even in a comics world the superheroes are always somewhere else- Annihilation? Genosha?

I specifically addressed this earlier. Notice that I'm not complaining about only Storm facing down Clor, or only BP and a small team of X-Men fighting monsters in Africa. There's a different set of rules for dealing with real-world tragedies, especially recent ones.

I dont recall as much outrage for this issue.

Again, I'm not outraged, and I don't intend to defend those people who were. People did overreact. My point is simply that it's poor storytelling, and it's easy to see how it could have been done much better.

[heretic]

So as I'm to understand it, minority writers are automaticaly excempt from demands for quality? Because, by in large, those are the complaints that have dogged Hudlin's run.

No one's said he couldn't address racial politics. They just want him to do it well. He doesn't.Said it before, will say it again.

I challenge every BP fan to read Prist's run from the a little while back. He managed all the things Hudlin seems to be attempting that are more than bad jokes and did it well.

HTG

[bluedmighty]

But since he was immediately thrown out of the room, and never seen again, it's made pretty explicit that not only does he not represent the attitudes of the US gov't, but they actively reject him. In which case, what's the point of including him? Just to say that such people exist at all?

Actually yes.

Some people are ignorant to the fact that racism still exists and abides in all places, even at the highest levels of our Military.

Have you ever heard of the term "Sand ni&&er"?




This is already tricky, because it's conflating what happened in the real world with what happened in the MU. After 9/11, other than an out-of-continuity Spider-Man tribute book, neither of the big publishers ever established that 9/11 happened in their respective universes. With as many superheroes as there are in New York, they'd look like chumps for failing to intervene.

Given the size and gravity of what happened to New Orleans and the gulf region, it would ordinarily stand to reason that the Big Two would take the same approach with that disaster. No one in the Marvel Universe reacted to the flood because, until Hudlin established otherwise, the flood simply hadn't happened in the Marvel Universe.

So that's controversy #1 in the story: Hudlin setting a serious, real-world tragedy in the middle of a comic book universe. Add to that his decision not only not to explain what the MU superhero community had done in response, but to imply pretty heavily that they hadn't actually done anything. This is naturally gonna rub a lot of Marvel fans the wrong way, suggesting that their favorite heroes all turned their backs on such a major tragedy. He could've gone the allegorical route, and written a story about a similar yet fictional tragedy (e.g., what happened in 'Aquaman' with Sub Diego), but instead he opted for the literal, real thing.

Once he made that call, there's only one way to tell that story respectfully and well, and that's as a serious story. You couldn't drop the real-world 9/11 into the MU, wrap a story around it, and include Skrulls as part of the plot. If you're going to utilize real-world tragedy, you can't just throw in fantastic fictional aspects at whim. But Hudlin did exactly that, and ended up trying to make a serious political statement about a real, devastating tragedy...while also including redneck vampires. (And their racism is irrelevant to this point.)



Which only means that maybe including Blade in the Katrina story wasn't the best idea. Hudlin had at least plot points in mind here:

1) Tell a political story about Hurricane Katrina.
2) Tell a team-up story between Panther, Cage, and Blade.
3) Tell a story with redneck vampires.

#2 and 3 work perfectly together. #1 and 2 could work well together as well. But #1 and 3 don't. Their tones are at odds with each other. But Hudlin threw all three elements into the same story anyway, despite their inherent conflict.

I understand what you're saying.

But for me, for lack of a better term, it had a "Right On!!!!!" feel.

Especially given the events, lack of response, lack of jurnalistc sensitivity with regards to how they portreyed SOME americans in that situation, and Kanye's comments.

On another note Thor had a brawl with IM and practically blamed the CW for the lack of aid.

There were also no black peple in issue if I recall. Not even extras.

I could be wrong. But that's how I remember it.



To tangent for a moment, I'm not too keen on the Thrice Blessed Armor. T'Challa creating a super-protective outfit is cool, but he had a super-protective vibranium-weave suit in the last series. The main difference here is that the Thrice-Blessed Armor has mystical properties, and it's my personal opinion that the Black Panther shouldn't have magic-based toys. T'Challa is supposed to be a genius, and something of a science-hero. He shouldn't have magical weapons in his arsenal anymore than Batman or should. Hudlin, however, has seen fit to give him two.

I can't think of why noone has done it before.

The Vary mantle of Black Panther includes the duties of Chief High Priest of Wakanda. He is the living symbol of the Panther God's will on earth.

The very act of becoming Black Panther entails Ritual and mysticisim to some, if not a large, degree.

It's also in Wakanda's History to have blended life and Technology in a way that the west has yet to achieve (Mr. Fantastic said this on his 1st trip to Wakanda).

Taking the Ebony Blade from an assasin and keeping it to whip ass is GANGSTA.

Ebony Blade+Black Panther : Peanut butter+Jelly : Chocolate+Peanut Butter :Milk + Cookies


Why? In one of the first multi-part Black Panther stories back in the 1970s, T'Challa fought the KKK. Not some fictionalized, MU counterpart of the KKK, but the actual, white-robed Ku Klux Klan. Why should readers thirty years later feel weird about racist vampires?

Fair.

But was it just him, or was he leading a group of super powered Black folk to comfront the KKK?

And to honest I think most of the Smart/dangerous ones handed in their robes for business suits and Overalls a while ago.




Again, I think this is an instance where Hudlin failed to consider how his different ideas for BP stories would work together. And you've identified one of these above:

1) BP and the FF visit the Skrull gangster planet.
2) BP and Storm interact with the black civil rights movement.

The first of these is pure Silver Age goofiness. And Hudlin acknowledges that to the extent that he has the rebel Skrulls build a new society based on American TV signals. But the second, especially executed as literally as Hudlin has done, isn't a good fit for that.

And what's ironic here is that Hudlin has a plot device in hand that would permit T'Challa and Storm to interact with the REAL Black Panthers, not some TV-inspired Skrullian imitations. How easy would it have been for the Golden Frogs to teleport BP and friends to the American 1960s, where they would have met the real King and X, Storm could've interacted with real black civil rights activists, and so on. He even could have had some fun by having T'Challa inspire the name of the Black Panther Party, instead of just being confused with them. But no. Instead we have them interacting with alien imitations, teaming up to fight alien imitation gangsters. If Hudlin wanted to play the 'interacting with civil rights figures' for comedy, it might work. But since he's aiming to make a serious story of it, the dissonance between the elements brings down both halves of the story.

Again, I see where you're comming from.

But IMPO, to go back in time and interact with the real movement may have some continuity issues to deal with. What happened back then with 2 super powered Black People joining the Black Panther movement should have or would have reprecussions that ripple through the MU. affecting Heroes that would have been around back then but may or may not have been involved or affected by the movement.



Thanks for the thoughtful commentary, btw.

No problems sir.
It's the way I'm built :D

[bluedmighty]

Said it before, will say it again.

I challenge every BP fan to read Prist's run from the a little while back. He managed all the things Hudlin seems to be attempting that are more than bad jokes and did it well.

HTG

My problem with the Priest run is that "SOMETIMES" BP felt like a guest in his book.

It was like watching Connan. Only Arnold says three lines every 45 mins, and the Narrator never shuts up.

Also,

He made BP come off like Spidey.

He even got beat up but Craven.