Black Panther #33 *Spoilers*

[The Cool Thatguy]

Actually yes.

Some people are ignorant to the fact that racism still exists and abides in all places, even at the highest levels of our Military.

And?

Unless you're gonna explore it in the story, it's a pointless distraction that interupts/disrupts the narrative. It's completely pointless.

[The Cool Thatguy]

My problem with the Priest run is that "SOMETIMES" BP felt like a guest in his book.

It was like watching Connan. Only Arnold says three lines every 45 mins, and the Narrator never shuts up.

Also,

He made BP come off like Spidey.

He even got beat up but Craven.

You're naturally entitled to your opinion, but you're wrong with that last bit. Panther faked defeat in his first battle with Kraven, wanting to know who had hired him. When Kraven shows up again, Panther attacks and beats him so brutally that the Avengers have to stop his attack.

[bluedmighty]

And?

Unless you're gonna explore it in the story, it's a pointless distraction that interupts/disrupts the narrative. It's completely pointless.

It was short and sweet.

His appearance ended with his dismissal.
Which could also be construed as a statement within itself.

The attitude is not a "Popular" one, and dealt with on the spot.

But it does exist.

Also, we don't know if that character won't be back in a future story.

We still have US boats running War games close to Wakandan Waters.

That General could still play a part in things to come.


You're naturally entitled to your opinion, but you're wrong with that last bit. Panther faked defeat in his first battle with Kraven, wanting to know who had hired him. When Kraven shows up again, Panther attacks and beats him so brutally that the Avengers have to stop his attack.

Fair.

I didn't read that one.

[GalactaSurfer]

Said it before, will say it again.

I challenge every BP fan to read Prist's run from the a little while back. He managed all the things Hudlin seems to be attempting that are more than bad jokes and did it well.

HTG

Again Preist run was good but its not that much better than Huldins run (Disclaimer i still havent read/collected the full run) there were some things i read in that run that left a bad taste in my mouth the same way that some of you were annoyed by some points in Huds Run.

[The Cool Thatguy]

It was short and sweet.

His appearance ended with his dismissal.
Which could also be construed as a statement within itself.

The attitude is not a "Popular" one, and dealt with on the spot.

But it does exist.

So? We don't need throw away lines that remind us the sky is blue or that water is wet. It was at best a distraction.


Also, we don't know if that character won't be back in a future story.

We still have US boats running War games close to Wakandan Waters.

That General could still play a part in things to come.

I'd argue that some 30 plus issues is too long to wait for foreshadowing, but even that aside to be legitmate foreshadowing there ought to be at least a line or two after his dismissal "You can't get rid of so and so that easily."

[bluedmighty]

So? We don't need throw away lines that remind us the sky is blue or that water is wet. It was at best a distraction.

Fair.

But one Man's distraction
Is another Man's PSA




I'd argue that some 30 plus issues is too long to wait for foreshadowing, but even that aside to be legitmate foreshadowing there ought to be at least a line or two after his dismissal "You can't get rid of so and so that easily."

This I can agree with.

However I'm reminded of HUlk or Spidey villians that get thier start as bystandards when I think of the possibilities for the character.

IF we see him again. If we don't, well, I guess you're right.

[bluezulu]

Hey guys another thing I was thinking about while I was thumbing my box of books another reference for the parody and satire in this series was the matching up of the great Scot Eaton with Hudlin early on in the series. Outside of the great ethnic features Scot places on his characters his use of celebrity reference for his art has a certain satirical edge to it. Remember the hip hop goon at the party Tchalla had to deal with. He was a Pdiddy clone, with the sister he was with patterned after Jlo. At the time neither one of them were together at that point and real life but the reader would have the aha moment and instantly could see where the writer and in this case artist wanted them to go with the scene. Again thinking back to the bruhaha that issue 10 had and seeing some of the same gripes today I am convinced that this book is either for you or not your taste. Not a big conspiracy, just a book written in a certain way for certain fans.

related not how much of a chance to get Scot Eaton or David Yardin on this book again. These two artist more then any other got Reg's style and seemed to respect it more then any other artist this series had. What is needed to have full time artist on a series? Is the financial commitment and issues over artistic rights too great?
******

*please note not really in the mood for any "debates" just pointing out an observation that is all

[The Cool Thatguy]

Lotta books are written for 'certain fans', Zulu. Doesn't mean they're any better or worse because of it.

[RolandJP]

im glad Hudlin touched on Katrina, much like JMS thor issue. I was stunned that the event garnered next to no attention by the big two. Kudos to the creative staffs for the guts of having done so.

Secondly, If you think about it most superhero team-ups make little sense. I will admit that when black superheroes get together the reaction from some fans borders on the psychotic. I guess Comics utilize the old 7-11 rules, no more than two black superheroes are allowed in a comic at one time. With X-treme X-men, Kurt Busiek's Avengers and the CREW being the exceptions.

[The Cool Thatguy]

im glad Hudlin touched on Katrina, much like JMS thor issue. I was stunned that the event garnered next to no attention by the big two. Kudos to the creative staffs for the guts of having done so.

Secondly, If you think about it most superhero team-ups make little sense. I will admit that when black superheroes get together the reaction from some fans borders on the psychotic. I guess Comics utilize the old 7-11 rules, no more than two black superheroes are allowed in a comic at one time. With X-treme X-men, Kurt Busiek's Avengers and the CREW being the exceptions.

So...I guess because there are wackjob fans somewhere on the 'net, that means you don't have to discuss the merits of the story?

[Sean Whitmore]

Lotta books are written for 'certain fans', Zulu. Doesn't mean they're any better or worse because of it.

Actually, sometimes it can definitely mean they're worse.

I'll pick on a white character for a moment, if that won't harm my reputation of hating black people in this thread.

Wolverine Origins is aimed squarely at fans who have a keen interest in obscure Wolverine continuity from the late 90s.

And it's horrible. Worse than Black Panther.

Though they're both bad, and for similar reasons.


SEAN

[RolandJP]

So...I guess because there are wackjob fans somewhere on the 'net, that means you don't have to discuss the merits of the story?


I define a wackjob fan as one that continually beats a dead horse. You can discuss your dislike or merit of a story, but that does not mean everyone has to have YOUR opinion.

PS. I have read Preist's run on Panther, and I enjoyed it as well as Hudlins. If I wanted to nitpick I could find serious faults in both. But I found them equally enjoyable. The one knock on Preists run was that it was Panther's book but it was rarely told from his perspective, just ross's.

[The Cool Thatguy]

I define a wackjob fan as one that continually beats a dead horse. You can discuss your dislike or merit of a story, but that does not mean everyone has to have YOUR opinion.

I don't recall saying that they do. But that also doesn't mean I haven't observed how such discussion is largely avoided.

[RolandJP]

I don't recall saying that they do. But that also doesn't mean I haven't observed how such discussion is largely avoided.

You are right. Hudlin has his problems too. Often he allows the overal themes of his issues to bums rush characterization, story structure, plot and cohesion. If he could combine them all, I think the book would improve greatly.

[Loki]

I define a wackjob fan as one that continually beats a dead horse.

That does, of course, describe several people on both sides of the debate as to Reginald Hudlin's writing quality.


PS. I have read Preist's run on Panther, and I enjoyed it as well as Hudlins. If I wanted to nitpick I could find serious faults in both. But I found them equally enjoyable. The one knock on Preists run was that it was Panther's book but it was rarely told from his perspective, just ross's.

There can be a very good reason for that. For a long period of the run of original Dr. Who novels, the writers avoided ever showing the Doctor's thought processes; everything was told from the perspective of other characters around him. This was because the writers were portraying the Doctor as manipulative and Machiavellian, and it is hard to do that if the reader is privy to the character in question's thought processes. Priest's Panther was unquestionably the most cunning depiction of T'Challa, showing someone who not only was several chess moves ahead of most opponents, but was often secretly playing the next game or two while finishing off the current one.

[Loren]

You are right. Hudlin has his problems too. Often he allows the overal themes of his issues to bums rush characterization, story structure, plot and cohesion. If he could combine them all, I think the book would improve greatly.

My personal theory as to the source of Hudlin's writing flaws is that he is not, by trade, a writer. Unlike virtually every other TV/movie person who has been brought in to write for one of the Big Two, his resume is primarily as a director.

To wit, his entire IMdB entry lists only two movies he wrote. The first was 1991's "House Party." And the second was "Bebe's Kids," where he primarily adapted Robin Harris' comedy into a screenplay.

And I tend to think that his failings as a writer stem from this. He's had several plot ideas that were decent to good in broad strokes, and his pacing isn't half bad, but he's had trouble in the areas that a screenwriter or author would be stronger: characterization, character creation and development, dialogue, theme, etc. It reminds me a little of the problems George Lucas ended up having when he opted not to get a screenwriter for the Star Wars prequels.

For instance, for someone writing a periodical, he seems unable to establish any continuing plotlines that would encourage readers to hang around after a given arc ends. Every arc has been so self-contained that there's little incentive for the reader who dropped by for a crossover to stay onboard after the crossover ends. There's very little to his writing that makes the reader ask "What's going to happen next issue, or later on?" You'd practically think he was writing a series of BP mini-series.

[Alphaxman]

You may be right and I do feel that he has a lot of growing to do as a writer but he is getting better with each issue in my option. Yes his characterization, character creation and development, were pretty bad on his first arc but they are pretty good to me now. And his dialogue is fine. Johnny, Ben, T’Challa all sound like themselves. The only one he has a problem with is Ororo but most writers have a problem with her characterization.

I feel that some want Black Panther to have all the intrigue and political movements of his last series but I think that Hudlin want more straight Super hero action.

I loved Priest run and I like Hudlin run. And I hope that Black Panther will continue to give another creator a chance to shine.

[Magneto X]

Straight superhero action doesn't apply well to a guy who is a head of state, a genius, and street-level in power levels.

Maybe they're trying to get FF readers to dig BP.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

In terms of wanting the fans who buy FF and X-Men to respectively cross over and give Black Panther a try ..its been an absolute failure. If the trend continues we soon realize its never worked. In fact in one Comics Buyers Guide it said this about an issue of Fantastic Four:

"Black Panther and Storm are in this issue. When did Storm marry Black Panther ? Does Forge know ?"

So what have we learned here ?


Force feeding couples togethor into marriage storylines don't always mean : SALES. Because its not worked in this instance. By pushing the couple to show up in FF and X-Men to expose them and get a wide target its never added anything after the mega crossovers.

So by the time Skrull Invasion starts sales for BP could be at or under the 25,000 mark . Which isn't good. And its not good with the massive promotional push Quesada has done to make people accept the marriage.

[GalactaSurfer]

In terms of wanting the fans who buy FF and X-Men to respectively cross over and give Black Panther a try ..its been an absolute failure. If the trend continues we soon realize its never worked. In fact in one Comics Buyers Guide it said this about an issue of Fantastic Four:

"Black Panther and Storm are in this issue. When did Storm marry Black Panther ? Does Forge know ?"

So what have we learned here ?


Force feeding couples togethor into marriage storylines don't always mean : SALES. Because its not worked in this instance. By pushing the couple to show up in FF and X-Men to expose them and get a wide target its never added anything after the mega crossovers.

So by the time Skrull Invasion starts sales for BP could be at or under the 25,000 mark . Which isn't good. And its not good with the massive promotional push Quesada has done to make people accept the marriage.

The only reason that the marrage wanst completly sold is because the X-officee didnt take part in the event.

I think the Storm mini did a good job of setting up the Marrage event but people didnt fully appreciate it, especially X-fans

[SUPERECWFAN1]

The only reason that the marrage wanst completly sold is because the X-officee didnt take part in the event.

I think the Storm mini did a good job of setting up the Marrage event but people didnt fully appreciate it, especially X-fans

The X-Offices were basically in a very weird state at the point Quesada handed down the edict that Storm was to go to BP. Claremont was coming off House of M , his prior storylines had been retconned now (Storm was supposed to lead the XSE ..a mutant police type squad) and combined with ill-health it seemed to hamper things.

I do remember Peter Milligan getting her to Africa with the X-Men. But beyond it...they were busy handling plots that were ongoin that they had.

Which is why a RUSH JOB shouldn't have happened. By rushing they threw a couple togethor and had they called a meeting and said: In 2 years I wanna have Storm and Black Panther married. You in Black Panther will help build to it and lay a background. Milligan and Claremont ...you 2 need to build long term to Panther and Storm being married.

Instead Joe Quesada wanted a 6 month mini-series and no build to make a huge Wedding and he expected all these fans to come onto the series. And to be honest they tried (64,000 for #18 of BP) but it fizzled since they didn't accept it.

[GalactaSurfer]

The X-Offices were basically in a very weird state at the point Quesada handed down the edict that Storm was to go to BP. Claremont was coming off House of M , his prior storylines had been retconned now (Storm was supposed to lead the XSE ..a mutant police type squad) and combined with ill-health it seemed to hamper things.

I do remember Peter Milligan getting her to Africa with the X-Men. But beyond it...they were busy handling plots that were ongoin that they had.

Which is why a RUSH JOB shouldn't have happened. By rushing they threw a couple togethor and had they called a meeting and said: In 2 years I wanna have Storm and Black Panther married. You in Black Panther will help build to it and lay a background. Milligan and Claremont ...you 2 need to build long term to Panther and Storm being married.

Instead Joe Quesada wanted a 6 month mini-series and no build to make a huge Wedding and he expected all these fans to come onto the series. And to be honest they tried (64,000 for #18 of BP) but it fizzled since they didn't accept it.

Yet afterwards theres still no participation on the X-office part, i mean come on they had the Storm mini and the X-men Annual there was enough talent going and Storm is one of there best characters yet no love?

By the way what was the storyline gojng in X-men at the time?

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Yet afterwards theres still no participation on the X-office part, i mean come on they had the Storm mini and the X-men Annual there was enough talent going and Storm is one of there best characters yet no love?

By the way what was the storyline gojng in X-men at the time?

Storm was leading the X-Men now in Uncanny . They were the XSE. Then House of M ended that. Its been said Claremont really didn't see Storm and BP as a couple. Since he had barely wrote the 2 doing anything in the last decade or 2 he wrote the X-Books.

Claremont was doing a long term storyline involving Jamie Braddock.

Milligan's X-Men was involved with Mystqiue and Polaris wanting to get her powers back post Decimation. (the after effects of House of M hit Milligan's book.

The X-Men are actually pushing Storm hard again. She was a key leader of the Extremists arc leading into "Messiah Complex". Promoting her and Panther as a couple as she stopped by the FF.

So they are trying hard. Its just that its a fanbase that is sending a message to Joe that he's ignoring. We Don't Care .

[XPac]

Yeah. I think more fans would have been behind the relationship if the writers had done a better job of building the thing up. It came off more as a cheap publicity stunt because of how quickly and randomly it was thrown out.

And frankly, I think it was done just to help BP. Storm is undoubtedly the greatest african american character in comics, and at least arguably the next to Wonder Woman the greatest female character (though that one is debatable).

Storm and BP are both great characters... I think their marriage COULD have been great. Their marriage deserved more than a cheap publicity stunt treatment... it needed to be built up to be the epic thing it SHOULD have been. They could have milked that for at least a good year and a half worth of storylines.

[bluedmighty]

BeBe's Kids was Hillarious :D

I'm a Storm fan.

I think that Mr. Hudkins grown over his run.
I agree that his characterization was a little rough at first.

However,

What he HAS consistantly done is display her as powerful, and someone to be respected.

As a Storm fan, I was unhappy with the way the character was treated after the Arena arch.

After that, all other writters saw her good for was TALKING tough and then getting her ass whiped. The movie didn't help. NOT Halle's fault. Wolverine was their guy cause his effects were the cheapest.

The movie combined with the writter's not knowing what to do with her after the Arena, gave a really bad representation of the character.

While other characters got the "Omega" title Storm, a mutant that clearly fit into their initial understanding of what an Omega was, was passed over.
Then smacked up in Phoenix: End Song.

Her best book in years was the Annual fairwell.

I'n my Opinion Mr. Hudlin has rescued this character from what would have been limbo.

GAVE her a "possible" Omega status.

And, has cosistantly shown her to be a BEAST.

I see him trying to restore her to 80's-90's power levels.

People haven't seen an EFFECTIVE, don't F' with me, Storm for 3/4 of a decade in the X-Books.

Her return by Brubecker was WACK.

With a capitol L-A-M-E.

The X-books still have'nt had Pamther make an apperance. Brubecker didn't feature him, mention him, or explain his where abouts in the issue that featured the fantastic four.

He hasn't been mentioned in the MC cross Over.

Storm's defining momment of the crossover was stripped from her by, none other than, Brubecker.

His issue skipped, what I thought as as a Storm fan, could have been the most AWESOME FIGHT she'd been in in a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG time.

This was the moment I'd been waiting for as a returnee. Uncanny didn't deliver. NO. THIS was it.The set up was lain. Wolveine: injured but healing, distance from the battle, unknown. Kurt: shot, unable to bamf, distance from the battle unknown, Angel: first victim of an angry Sinster, condition unknown. Colossus: mind rapped by Sinister, Falls to groung underneath the combined blows of Frenzy and Sinister.

Leaving Storm.

and he skipped it.

The best chance to give Storm fans a little of the justification they've been looking for.

and he skipped it

for SHAME

So says

Dmighty

*end of Rant* :D

I could go all day, but at the end of it,

I feel like Mr. Hudlin is learning and improving. Feb. sees the conclusion of the Skrull gangster arch and the First Annual. Featuring a look at the future of Wakanda.

can't wait

[Grimm]

Storm's defining momment of the crossover was stripped from her by, none other than, Brubecker.

His issue skipped, what I thought as as a Storm fan, could have been the most AWESOME FIGHT she'd been in in a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG time.

This was the moment I'd been waiting for as a returnee. Uncanny didn't deliver. NO. THIS was it.The set up was lain. Wolveine: injured but healing, distance from the battle, unknown. Kurt: shot, unable to bamf, distance from the battle unknown, Angel: first victim of an angry Sinster, condition unknown. Colossus: mind rapped by Sinister, Falls to groung underneath the combined blows of Frenzy and Sinister.

Leaving Storm.

and he skipped it.

The best chance to give Storm fans a little of the justification they've been looking for.

and he skipped it

for SHAME

So says

Dmighty

*end of Rant* :D

I could go all day, but at the end of it,





You know that Mike Carey wrote that issue, and not Brubaker right?

And are you really saying that you thought Storm could take Sinister and the Mauraders? Realistically, without PIS Tempo would slap Storm around like a little bitch. How exactly is Storm going to lay the smack down on someone when she is frozen in time? When you add in people like Sinister, it just gets ugly. Storm didn't get shafted in that fight. Far from it.

Storm is powerful, but what justification do you need? She gets wanked all the time by writers. She blew apart a herald of Galactus not too recently. Shockingly enough in the same story that had BP execute a hold to sudbue the SS. Norrin can survive black holes, just not black men ;)

[RolandJP]

You know that Mike Carey wrote that issue, and not Brubaker right?

And are you really saying that you thought Storm could take Sinister and the Mauraders? Realistically, without PIS Tempo would slap Storm around like a little bitch. How exactly is Storm going to lay the smack down on someone when she is frozen in time? When you add in people like Sinister, it just gets ugly. Storm didn't get shafted in that fight. Far from it.

Storm is powerful, but what justification do you need? She gets wanked all the time by writers. She blew apart a herald of Galactus not too recently. Shockingly enough in the same story that had BP execute a hold to sudbue the SS. Norrin can survive black holes, just not black men ;)

Ironic considering Radd has the voice of a black man {see FF:ROTSS}

[Grimm]

Ironic considering Radd has the voice of a black man {see FF:ROTSS}

He's been voiced by two actually. I'm surprised you didn't know that.

I'd hang my head in shame, were I you.. ;)

[RolandJP]

He's been voiced by two actually. I'm surprised you didn't know that.

I'd hang my head in shame, were I you.. ;)

First off, I have no shame. :p


Secondly, Norrin Radd is a black name if I ever heard one.

[Grimm]

First off, I have no shame. :p


Secondly, Norrin Radd is a black name if I ever heard one.

Hah, could be!

Maybe we'll see him pimpin his ride? :D

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Well Norrin was bangin a chick named Shalla-Ba wasn't he ? ;)

[bluedmighty]

You know that Mike Carey wrote that issue, and not Brubaker right?;)

Objection knownotta.

You are officially out of order.

Mike Cary set her up in Ch. 5

Brubecker f'ed her over in Ch. 6

In FACT,

I just got done reading that bum's enterview in the "Massiah Complex Marvel Spotlight".

And I'll go so far as to say he could care less about the character.

In 6 pages, Brubecker dosen't say her name once.

In SIX pages, no mention.

The spotlight enterviewr brought her up in conversation, and Bru totally doged the question.

He even talked about his Ch. 6, mentioned that he picked up where Carey left off (LIE), and didn't even mention the "A" Team and their postion in Antarctica.

Going so far as to call Storm's team the "Failed" team, and then giving the nod to X-Force as a true Strike team :rolleyes:.

In Bru's Ch. 10. evrybody that Cyke assembled is seen in the book except Darwin ,and, guess who,

STORM



And are you really saying that you thought Storm could take Sinister and the Mauraders? Realistically, without PIS Tempo would slap Storm around like a little bitch. How exactly is Storm going to lay the smack down on someone when she is frozen in time? When you add in people like Sinister, it just gets ugly. Storm didn't get shafted in that fight. Far from it.

Well, appearantly we'll never know since Brubecker skipped it.

You think Wolverine got it together and saved the day?

Angel displayed some previously unmentioned ability that got everybody sasfely to the jet?

Kurt was some how able to perform multiple jumps before passing out due to the blood loss?

Colossus stould up and said "Who wants what"?

OR,

Is it POSSIBLE, that Storm saved everybody's baccon?

We'll NEVER know.

Speaking of P.I.S.,

Here's looking at you:

Jean Grey and the "Phoenix"

White Queen and the ability to turn into, OMG, a diamond.

Superman and his ability to even FLY let alone travel at FTL speeds

Wonder Woman and her ability to evan FLY, let alone move with super human speed, magic.

What EVER happened to that invisible jet?



Storm is powerful, but what justification do you need? She gets wanked all the time by writers. She blew apart a herald of Galactus not too recently. Shockingly enough in the same story that had BP execute a hold to sudbue the SS. Norrin can survive black holes, just not black men ;)

This is where I offer you a pass chief.

I'm not exactly the person to get into it with regarding Storm and her power levels.

The justification I demand, is that they quit making Storm job to EVERYBODY.

Getting "Wanked" all the time by writers is a weak statement as in my post above yours you can CLEARLY see we differ on that notion.

In the instance you described, were Storm took on Stardust and the Surfer, BOTH instances fit in with the character's history, earlier established power levels, and representation.

How long have you been reading X-men?

Do you know what she is and absolutely is not capable of?

OR

Is the first time you noticed, or payed attention to the character, when you saw her on the Cartoon or in the Movie?

What you call getting "wanked" I call getting back to business.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Whats really funny is the fact that the "bum" Brubaker made her a leader in the Extremists arc leading in.

To say this... Nightcrawler has barely said 5 words in this arc. Neither has Jullian Keller. Theres a reason.... theres over 30 to 40 characters in the books and theres only so much page/panel time they all get. Yeah Storm's not done much... but neither has many X-Men.

[bluedmighty]

Whats really funny is the fact that the "bum" Brubaker made her a leader in the Extremists arc leading in.

That really is funny.

Considering that he veiwed Fall of the Shiar as a "Space opera"

and Extremeists was his "attempt to follow that big story with something smaller".

Bubecker:

Yep that was enough excitment for one year. I think i'll takle a break. You know let my pen rest, and do nice neat story i can bs my way through.

I KNOW, I'll do the Morlocks nobody really cares about those guys, the fans won't mind this as much as me leaving a team in space.

But the Morlocks alone won't do it. I need something else.

I'VE GOT IT. We'll bring Storm back to the X-men and I'll stick the new Queen in the sewer.

Then BURY her.

Then put her in a Coffin.

Yeah, THAT'S the ticket.

Anyway, my point is, that even though I have SERIOUS issues with Brubecker I don't talk about him being the assclown I think he is in Unncany X-men reveiws.

To be totally honest, I've been relying on Brian M's excellent reviews so that I can keep abreast of the issues, but not waste my money.




To say this... Nightcrawler has barely said 5 words in this arc. Neither has Jullian Keller. Theres a reason.... theres over 30 to 40 characters in the books and theres only so much page/panel time they all get. Yeah Storm's not done much... but neither has many X-Men.

I agree.

Nightcrawler AND Colossus are two of the other characters that debuted with Storm that get very little love.

I AM happy, however, that another writer has seen fit to liberate Colossus from the X-books, and include him in "The last deffenders".

I'm sorry, I just don't see why they're beating us over the head with adimantium.

It's funny how HIS name never gets brought up in debates about about writer wankage.

[Sean Whitmore]

It's funny how HIS name never gets brought up in debates about about writer wankage.

Who's "his" refer to?


SEAN

[SUPERECWFAN1]

That really is funny.

Considering that he veiwed Fall of the Shiar as a "Space opera"

and Extremeists was his "attempt to follow that big story with something smaller".


One was a mega 12 part story-arc that was his big space opera. The next was a 5 part story-arc featuring the Morlocks and bringing Storm in was good. Since she led them at one time.


It's funny how HIS name never gets brought up in debates about about writer wankage.

He's Ed Brubaker and he's basically one of Marvel's best. His Captain America , Daredevil and Iron Fist are considered essential reading each month. He's been decent on Uncanny but even at DECENT ...he's pretty damn good.

[TheGreatest]

Well, if you want some specifics I was never a fan of his continuity.

His first BP arc has Hudlin basically retconning BP and Klaws entire history together, erasing decades worth of Klaw stories so that they're suddenly meeting for the first time. Kind of silly since Klaw is being used in other books.

He magically transforms Radioactive Man from Chinese to Russian and throws in there, ignoring Radioactive Man's usage in other books like TBolts.

In both cases, he completely ignores continuity. Thus other writers in turn completely ignored what he did. That sort of writing is so off it has to be completely ignored so the rest of the MU can make sense.

And if it means anything (and it shouldn't), I'm a minority. And I still think it's bad writing.

Evidence has been shown that the first arc of this run was written as an out of continuity miniseries reimagining the character's history. Continuing it from there as an ongoing was a bad editorial decision.

Many don't want to consider this because it gives them less to complain about Hudlin.

[XPac]

Evidence has been shown that the first arc of this run was written as an out of continuity miniseries reimagining the character's history. Continuing it from there as an ongoing was a bad editorial decision.

Many don't want to consider this because it gives them less to complain about Hudlin.

If you'd care to cite the evidence you're talking about, I'd certainly be willing to take it into consideration.

[Sean Whitmore]

Many don't want to consider this because...

...it sounds like something that was just made up?

Yeah, I could understand that.


SEAN

[TheGreatest]

As for the rest of your statement, it really makes no sense logically. The Skrull world in question is a recreation of the Prohibition Era. That was in the 1920s and ended before WW2. The Civil Rights era came after WW2, largely in the 50s and 60s, IIRC. Hell, MLK was born in 1929. They're two different eras, seperated by decades and ideals that simply don't mesh. And you'd think anyone who graduated High School would know that.

Anyone who graduated high school would likewise know that deadly gladiatorial combat in large stadiums went on two thousand years ago in Rome and wasn't a part of Prohibition Era gangster history. Those gangsters likewise didn't utilize planetary destroying technology, flying cars, etc.

So you can't pick and choose what doesn't mesh. This is an alien planet of shapeshifters in another galaxy. Anything goes.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Evidence has been shown that the first arc of this run was written as an out of continuity miniseries reimagining the character's history. Continuing it from there as an ongoing was a bad editorial decision.

Many don't want to consider this because it gives them less to complain about Hudlin.

Honestly?

Yeah, that makes his run look a little better. But even as a reimagining/Year 1, it's still pretty lousy as it lessens Panther's character in many important ways.

Furthermore, we're over 30 issues in. He should know how to write serial fiction by now.


Anyone who graduated high school would likewise know that deadly gladiatorial combat in large stadiums went on two thousand years ago in Rome and wasn't a part of Prohibition Era gangster history. Those gangsters likewise didn't utilize planetary destroying technology, flying cars, etc.

So you can't pick and choose what doesn't mesh. This is an alien planet of shapeshifters in another galaxy. Anything goes.

Yeah, but at least alien mobsters and gladaiator combat mesh in terms ion terms of craziness. Civil Rights era, less so.

[TheGreatest]

If you'd care to cite the evidence you're talking about, I'd certainly be willing to take it into consideration.

Editorial has stated that the series originally was a miniseries and Hudlin stated specifically himself that he was not informed that the series would be continued as an ongoing until after he had written and turned in the script for issue #6.

Being that during the time, Marvel Knights and MAX had begun to become a place where creators would write re-imagining miniseries and the fact that Hudlin soon himself began to contradict the continuity of the first arc, one cannot just assume that Hudlin wrote that first arc as a retcon or revamp. There has been little about Hudlin's book that has been risqué, so what other reason would it have been under the MK print?

I honestly believe that if he began this book as an ongoing from the start, he would have stuck to established continuity to a reasonable degree as he is attempting to do now. Consider that if, as originally planned, the first arc had remained a mini, no one would have viewed it as in-continuity.

It's just like how JMS wrote the Strange mini based on a movie script he had in mind. Hudlin, movie writer and director, could very well have written that first arc with a movie script in mind.

[TheGreatest]

Yeah, but at least alien mobsters and gladaiator combat mesh in terms ion terms of craziness. Civil Rights era, less so.

Why is this?

[XPac]

Editorial has stated that the series originally was a miniseries and Hudlin stated specifically himself that he was not informed that the series would be continued as an ongoing until after he had written and turned in the script for issue #6.

Being that during the time, Marvel Knights and MAX had begun to become a place where creators would write re-imagining miniseries and the fact that Hudlin soon himself began to contradict the continuity of the first arc, one cannot just assume that Hudlin wrote that first arc as a retcon or revamp. There has been little about Hudlin's book that has been risqué, so what other reason would it have been under the MK print?

I honestly believe that if he began this book as an ongoing from the start, he would have stuck to established continuity to a reasonable degree as he is attempting to do now. Consider that if, as originally planned, the first arc had remained a mini, no one would have viewed it as in-continuity.

It's just like how JMS wrote the Strange mini based on a movie script he had in mind. Hudlin, movie writer and director, could very well have written that first arc with a movie script in mind.

I certainly find it believable that it started out as a mini-series... but the evidence you cite about it originally being intended as out of continuity is pure theory.

[bluezulu]

Editorial has stated that the series originally was a miniseries and Hudlin stated specifically himself that he was not informed that the series would be continued as an ongoing until after he had written and turned in the script for issue #6.

Being that during the time, Marvel Knights and MAX had begun to become a place where creators would write re-imagining miniseries and the fact that Hudlin soon himself began to contradict the continuity of the first arc, one cannot just assume that Hudlin wrote that first arc as a retcon or revamp. There has been little about Hudlin's book that has been risqué, so what other reason would it have been under the MK print?

I honestly believe that if he began this book as an ongoing from the start, he would have stuck to established continuity to a reasonable degree as he is attempting to do now. Consider that if, as originally planned, the first arc had remained a mini, no one would have viewed it as in-continuity.

It's just like how JMS wrote the Strange mini based on a movie script he had in mind. Hudlin, movie writer and director, could very well have written that first arc with a movie script in mind.

-----------------------
Although Hudlin has not point by point stated all of this based off of pieces here and there found in articles and forum post we gather this much as well. In more detail, Hudlin actually met someone at Marvel at a function and his love for comics was discussed. He mentioned the fact he had worked on something for a movie for the Black Panther. Marvel guy was like cool let me see it. They made it into an initial 6 issue run. The decision to make it an ongoing happened some time after it was written and after the original solicits as the advertising for the book stated it was a new vision for the take on the Black Panther.

On Hudlin's website there is a post entitled the vision where he discuss his version of the Black Panther. Check it out.

Oh yea. Some of the posters have known about the circumstances surrounding the first 6 issues of the series but they have personal issues with the writer of the series and have taken a very active role to dismiss the series for various reasons.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Why is this?

Generally because the seriousness which one should approach the subject. Gladiator games and organized crime have really become diluted in terms of seriousness at times. Thankfully, that's not happened as of yet with the Civil Rights era (hoping that it never happens is expecting too much of humanity).

[TheGreatest]

-----------------------
Although Hudlin has not point by point stated all of this based off of pieces here and there found in articles and forum post we gather this much as well. In more detail, Hudlin actually met someone at Marvel at a function and his love for comics was discussed. He mentioned the fact he had worked on something for a movie for the Black Panther. Marvel guy was like cool let me see it. They made it into an initial 6 issue run. The decision to make it an ongoing happened some time after it was written and after the original solicits as the advertising for the book stated it was a new vision for the take on the Black Panther.

On Hudlin's website there is a post entitled the vision where he discuss his version of the Black Panther. Check it out.

Oh yea. Some of the posters have known about the circumstances surrounding the first 6 issues of the series but they have personal issues with the writer of the series and have taken a very active role to dismiss the series for various reasons.

And this info sounds familiar. After reading such various interviews and statements, it became highly probable to me that the first 6 issues were not originally meant to be 616 T'Challa's true history.

[XPac]

-----------------------
Although Hudlin has not point by point stated all of this based off of pieces here and there found in articles and forum post we gather this much as well. In more detail, Hudlin actually met someone at Marvel at a function and his love for comics was discussed. He mentioned the fact he had worked on something for a movie for the Black Panther. Marvel guy was like cool let me see it. They made it into an initial 6 issue run. The decision to make it an ongoing happened some time after it was written and after the original solicits as the advertising for the book stated it was a new vision for the take on the Black Panther.

On Hudlin's website there is a post entitled the vision where he discuss his version of the Black Panther. Check it out.

Oh yea. Some of the posters have known about the circumstances surrounding the first 6 issues of the series but they have personal issues with the writer of the series and have taken a very active role to dismiss the series for various reasons.

It's kinda dangerous to just assume that other posters have some sort of agenda about this sort of thing though. Since a single shred of evidence wasn't actually produced to verify the idea that it was originally out of cannon, one could easily take the other side and say those the Hudlin fans are merely stringing together a theory to try and defend the writer bad continuity.

To argue that people do one think or say something purely because they like or dislike the writer isn't going to get anyone anywhere. At least unless you can actually back it up with something.

[The Cool Thatguy]

-----------------------
Although Hudlin has not point by point stated all of this based off of pieces here and there found in articles and forum post we gather this much as well. In more detail, Hudlin actually met someone at Marvel at a function and his love for comics was discussed. He mentioned the fact he had worked on something for a movie for the Black Panther. Marvel guy was like cool let me see it. They made it into an initial 6 issue run. The decision to make it an ongoing happened some time after it was written and after the original solicits as the advertising for the book stated it was a new vision for the take on the Black Panther.

On Hudlin's website there is a post entitled the vision where he discuss his version of the Black Panther. Check it out.

Oh yea. Some of the posters have known about the circumstances surrounding the first 6 issues of the series but they have personal issues with the writer of the series and have taken a very active role to dismiss the series for various reasons.


I've actually known that it was meant to be a mini series for a while now. But ya know what?

Even in that context, his writing still sucks. So yeah, not a great defense that.

[bluezulu]

It's kinda dangerous to just assume that other posters have some sort of agenda about this sort of thing though. Since a single shred of evidence wasn't actually produced to verify the idea that it was originally out of cannon, one could easily take the other side and say those the Hudlin fans are merely stringing together a theory to try and defend the writer bad continuity.

To argue that people do one think or say something purely because they like or dislike the writer isn't going to get anyone anywhere. At least unless you can actually back it up with something.

------------------------------
I actually agree. I should have qualified my statement more. Some posters and I have e-history. For new comers some can act as if we don't know each other position on the series, that may be why some of our post may seem a little more personal. But I can't debate if a writer sucks or not. That is a waste of time. I enjoy debates on the social and political commentary of the book. You have to say that this series has produced if nothing else great debates on social issues. Something a lot of books can't say. This thread is how many pages long from the next to last issue on a series that sells 25k books give or take a crossover or two.

Just was trying to bring more light to the poster's observation about the initial arc that is still gets complaints because of a lot of issues including continuity. So know given the almost universal taken explanation for the continuity of the first 6 issues we are left with writing styles, dialogue choices and issue set up. When you boil all of that down it comes down to personal taste.

[GalactaSurfer]

It's kinda dangerous to just assume that other posters have some sort of agenda about this sort of thing though. Since a single shred of evidence wasn't actually produced to verify the idea that it was originally out of cannon, one could easily take the other side and say those the Hudlin fans are merely stringing together a theory to try and defend the writer bad continuity.

To argue that people do one think or say something purely because they like or dislike the writer isn't going to get anyone anywhere. At least unless you can actually back it up with something.

Alot of poster who dont like the book do have issues with Hudlin personally, mostly the some of the white people in the book are potrayed as "evil"

I've read some astonishingly resentful post on various boards about Huldin alot of it is unfounded.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Alot of poster who dont like the book do have issues with Hudlin personally, mostly the some of the white people in the book are potrayed as "evil"

I've read some astonishingly resentful post on various boards about Huldin alot of it is unfounded.

I don't know if I'd go that far. I personally remember Hudlin, under another posting handle, going around insulting Priest and calling his fans racist. If that's not reason enough to dislike the man, what is?

[bluezulu]

I don't know if I'd go that far. I personally remember Hudlin, under another posting handle, going around insulting Priest and calling his fans racist. If that's not reason enough to dislike the man, what is?

--------------
Not exactly true. Now there is a lurker out there who will say to themselves that is why I hate Hudlin or something or other based off that one dangerous, second hand hear say. Despite the fact they should not some folks believe what they read on the internets.

[Sean Whitmore]

--------------
Not exactly true. Now there is a lurker out there who will say to themselves that is why I hate Hudlin or something or other based off that one dangerous, second hand hear say. Despite the fact they should not some folks believe what they read on the internets.

I don't know if him calling Priest fans racist is true.

But defending himself using other handles? That's true.


SEAN

[TheGreatest]

I don't know if him calling Priest fans racist is true.

But defending himself using other handles? That's true.


SEAN

Yes, he did defend himself using two other handles. He did not call Priest's fans racist and he did not insult Priest unless criticizing some of Priests work is considered an insult. During those posts, as I recall, he referred to himself as a Priest fan.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

I certainly find it believable that it started out as a mini-series... but the evidence you cite about it originally being intended as out of continuity is pure theory.

It was supposed to be in continuty until Marvel decided that it contradicted so much. Now with the 1st arc outta continuty you'd think the whole ebony blade would revert to where Teri in "New Excalibur" made Black Knight have the real one.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

I don't know if him calling Priest fans racist is true.

But defending himself using other handles? That's true.


SEAN


Yes, he did defend himself using two other handles. He did not call Priest's fans racist and he did not insult Priest unless criticizing some of Priests work is considered an insult. During those posts, as I recall, he referred to himself as a Priest fan.

I do remember that Rich Johnston had a blog/forum entry where he posed as someone else and posted supporting himself. So yeah... it was funny and just so sad and desperate at the same time.

[bluezulu]

It was supposed to be in continuty until Marvel decided that it contradicted so much. Now with the 1st arc outta continuty you'd think the whole ebony blade would revert to where Teri in "New Excalibur" made Black Knight have the real one.
---------------------
Not true. Nothing I have ever seen stated that. Your comment then is not so much critical of a first time comic book writer as it is of a long time comic book editor Axel Alonso, The division that handles the then Marvel Knights/ Xmen books, and Qusada for signing off. So unless you are saying that all of them in unison made a big gaff then you are off in your assessment of the first 6 issues imo. If anything I will give you a possible critic of a lack of foresight by the powers that be at marvel for not thinking what would happen if the series gets changed to an ongoing with them green lighting the first 6 issues. Then either leaving Hudlin to adjust with out any definitive statement about the change in creative direction.

Hudlin famously does not discuss anything related to upcoming stories or plot points. I see more interviews and solicitation on books well below The Black Panther that get explanations, pub and what have you. Don't get me wrong the book is well supported but I do think a lot of the negativity can be closed with a few Joe Friday comments, interviews etc. Although some times I think that Hudlin and Qusada think alike that negative press is better then no press. I mean this thread I know had to convince at least a few folks to go get the issue. That would not have happen with the simple who wins in a fight thread Captain America or Black Panther.


----
sorry for the typos or what not trying to post 5 minutes before a meeting.

[Loren]

Editorial has stated that the series originally was a miniseries and Hudlin stated specifically himself that he was not informed that the series would be continued as an ongoing until after he had written and turned in the script for issue #6.

I've heard it stated for years that Hudlin originally developed his opening arc as a standalone BP project, and not as an ongoing. However, I don't think I've ever heard it specifically stated that the decision to make it an ongoing was made until after he completed the script for #6.

I'm more than a little skeptical of it, because the arc doesn't really stand alone all that well. In particular, Hudlin introduces a villain of his own creation (Cannibal) in #1, spends a lot of time developing him in #2, and has him infiltrate T'Challa's inner circle in the last issue or two.

And then...nothing. Cannibal never personally confronts T'Challa. He doesn't have the time to exploit his new position of power. And frankly, he never actually contributes ANYTHING to Klaw's plan (other than recruiting the Knight, which didn't require his abilities). Klaw gained nothing from obtaining the guy's freedom in #1, and it's never made clear why the government that's imprisoning Cannibal has any interest in freeing him. Cannibal was completely and utterly unnecessary to the whole arc, despite the amount of attention he was given.

So Cannibal ends up being a huge loose end, and given his prominence in the first two issues and the fact that Hudlin himself created and bragged about him, it's strange that there should be such a huge loose end in a mini-series. Cannibal's inclusion ONLY makes sense as a subplot for an ongoing series, which couldn't have been the case if Hudlin had already finished #6 before #7 was ordered.

[Loren]

On Hudlin's website there is a post entitled the vision where he discuss his version of the Black Panther. Check it out.

You mean this (http://www.hudlinentertainment.com/smf/index.php?topic=958.0)?

I remember not being terribly impressed by this when I read it in the book, because while the first half is a decent background on T'Challa, the latter half is just Hudlin summarizing the events of his own first arc. He's not providing any unique insight into the character; he's just recounting plot points. Like he says, it's a pitch.

In fact, in looking over this thing, you said in a post below it that Hudlin wrote it before the first issue. Well, in the text of it, Hudlin himself refers to "The fist six issues" and teases a second story arc. That doesn't make any sense if the ongoing decision wasn't made until he'd finished writing #6.

[The Cool Thatguy]

I don't know if him calling Priest fans racist is true.

But defending himself using other handles? That's true.


SEAN

So's calling them racist

http://www.comicboards.com/blackpanther/view.php?rpl=061115191527

Though I'm sure people will gladly dance around the statement, denying the actual intent.

[Germ-X]

I can't say I'm particularly impressed with this arc. I haven't read this issue, but the last one read, to me, like one of those old episodes of Star Trek where Spock, Kirk and McCoy(Bones not Beast) would find themselves on Mobster World somehow... I just don't feel like getting on board with it.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

---------------------
Not true. Nothing I have ever seen stated that. Your comment then is not so much critical of a first time comic book writer as it is of a long time comic book editor Axel Alonso, The division that handles the then Marvel Knights/ Xmen books, and Qusada for signing off. So unless you are saying that all of them in unison made a big gaff then you are off in your assessment of the first 6 issues imo. If anything I will give you a possible critic of a lack of foresight by the powers that be at marvel for not thinking what would happen if the series gets changed to an ongoing with them green lighting the first 6 issues. Then either leaving Hudlin to adjust with out any definitive statement about the change in creative direction.

In New Marvel the editors have showed to be very bad at researching and following established continuty. In fact its an art form now. To nail down how bad it is.... over in Peter Milligan's final X-storyline involving Apcolypse they had Apcolypse's minion Ozymandias there. Which back in the late 90's they had this character turn against Apcolypse and help Cable out. I know it was a huge topic of debate which Marvel ignored since the editors didn't catch it. (they didn't even explain why he was back with Apcolypse again)

So yeah I think Joe Quesada creamed himself at getting a Hollywood writer...then after the story-arc as more editors realized how it contradicted established continuty and readers mocked it.... they decided it wasn't in. (They at Marvel did this on Chris Claremont's 1st appearance of X-23 in Uncanny 450# , making her 1st X-Appearance happen in New X-Men later....and someone said they added more to the retcon in the mini-series)

Another retcon that happened as soon as the ink was dry was Claremont's Hellfire Club arc. Where CC had made Roberta Dacosta become the Black King. Well over in Astonishing X-Men they were doing a Hellfire Club story-arc so Claremont's was retconned asap...and never mentioned again.;)


Hudlin famously does not discuss anything related to upcoming stories or plot points. I see more interviews and solicitation on books well below The Black Panther that get explanations, pub and what have you. Don't get me wrong the book is well supported but I do think a lot of the negativity can be closed with a few Joe Friday comments, interviews etc.

I've seen Joe Quesada back Black Panther , hand it crossover tie-ins and in general give it tons more support than he would a book like Cable & Deadpool or Ant-Man. It takes more than the EIC saying... "This book is good , stop saying it sucks" to get fans on your side. It takes ....actually good writing . The rest follows.


Although some times I think that Hudlin and Qusada think alike that negative press is better then no press. I mean this thread I know had to convince at least a few folks to go get the issue. That would not have happen with the simple who wins in a fight thread Captain America or Black Panther.

Negative press does not sell a series a lot of the time. Panther's already percieved as a B/C Level hero at Marvel. They have hard times selling those heroes to the mainstream fanbase where only so much $$$ is being spent. So imagine a comic book reader who reads online how bad Black Panther is online and he has a choice between it or Booster Gold which gets constant praise . Which book does that reader buy and spend his limited budget on ? He spends it on Booster Gold since he has heard the praise....ect ect.

I can see it as Quesada saying... as long as Hudlin writes Black Panther , I'll keep throwing events , tie-ins ...weddings ect ect into the book. This way he gets sales jolts every few months so I can act like its a success.

[TheGreatest]

You mean this (http://www.hudlinentertainment.com/smf/index.php?topic=958.0)?

I remember not being terribly impressed by this when I read it in the book, because while the first half is a decent background on T'Challa, the latter half is just Hudlin summarizing the events of his own first arc. He's not providing any unique insight into the character; he's just recounting plot points. Like he says, it's a pitch.

In fact, in looking over this thing, you said in a post below it that Hudlin wrote it before the first issue. Well, in the text of it, Hudlin himself refers to "The fist six issues" and teases a second story arc. That doesn't make any sense if the ongoing decision wasn't made until he'd finished writing #6.

The book was declared an ongoing before the first issue hit the shelves which seems to indicate that the entire arc had been scripted before issue #1was pencilled, colored, inked, lettered, printed and placed on the store shelves.

[TheGreatest]

So's calling them racist

http://www.comicboards.com/blackpanther/view.php?rpl=061115191527

Though I'm sure people will gladly dance around the statement, denying the actual intent.

You mean people will read the statement and not perceive it as you do.

[The Cool Thatguy]

You mean people will read the statement and not perceive it as you do.

There are only so many ways one can interpret being compared to racist red necks. None of them are flattering.

[TheGreatest]

It was supposed to be in continuty until Marvel decided that it contradicted so much. Now with the 1st arc outta continuty you'd think the whole ebony blade would revert to where Teri in "New Excalibur" made Black Knight have the real one.

By the time that it first came out, it was being declared as continuity and I don't recall this ever being changed. All you have now are contradictions yet no declaration of it not being in-continuity as I can recall. I believe elements of the first arc continue to be incorporated.

As a stand alone miniseries, as originally planned, the first six issues would have had no effect on established continuity. It would have simply come and gone.

[TheGreatest]

There are only so many ways one can interpret being compared to racist red necks. None of them are flattering.

I didn't read the term "racist" in that post. You added it.

[Loren]

The book was declared an ongoing before the first issue hit the shelves which seems to indicate that the entire arc had been scripted before issue #1was pencilled, colored, inked, lettered, printed and placed on the store shelves.

What bluezulu pointed us to was Hudlin's pitch for a BP comic. He calls it such in the text. Pitches are written BEFORE a writer scripts a full story, and they condense the story down in order to give the publisher an idea of the big beats of the story without having to write a full script. If the publisher likes the pitch, they commission the writer for the project, and THEN a full script is produced.

Which means we have one of two options here:

1) Hudlin, for some reason, wrote a pitch AFTER he'd turned in scripts for six issues. "Why, and for who?" would be a valid question.

2) Hudlin's pitch to Marvel for a Black Panther project originally entertained the series lasting longer than 6 issues.

Personally, I'm going with #2, but I'd be happy to hear a defense of #1.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

There are only so many ways one can interpret being compared to racist red necks. None of them are flattering.

Maybe he meant it like those southern guys on TV ...


"Hey Don , you ole redneck son of a bitch , hows its going ?"




:p

[The Cool Thatguy]

I didn't read the term "racist" in that post. You added it.

"You guys are like rednecks who keep saying the south will rise again"

The connotations of that are fairly obvious, for informed people.

[bluezulu]

What bluezulu pointed us to was Hudlin's pitch for a BP comic. He calls it such in the text. Pitches are written BEFORE a writer scripts a full story, and they condense the story down in order to give the publisher an idea of the big beats of the story without having to write a full script. If the publisher likes the pitch, they commission the writer for the project, and THEN a full script is produced.

Which means we have one of two options here:

1) Hudlin, for some reason, wrote a pitch AFTER he'd turned in scripts for six issues. "Why, and for who?" would be a valid question.

2) Hudlin's pitch to Marvel for a Black Panther project originally entertained the series lasting longer than 6 issues.

Personally, I'm going with #2, but I'd be happy to hear a defense of #1.

---------------------
Before I start getting misquoted let me say that this is all speculation. No one including me know how any of this came together so I guess I said all of that to say keep on speculating I guess.

[projectnrm]

The problem with Hudlin's Black Panther is that he spends too much time talking about race. For an entertainment medium that is predominantly patronized by white males, this isn't how you build a popular title.

If Hudlin focused on BP as a superhero first, and then a black man, more people would come to the book. And secondly, it would allow him to focus on telling good superhero stories that also make the book more entertaining.

Personally, I would like to see BP taking on America, in general. He is a world leader, and I think that Hudlin writes him too often as an African-American. I would assume that there are many things BP finds distasteful in all Americans, black, white, or otherwise...

[TheGreatest]

---------------------
Before I start getting misquoted let me say that this is all speculation. No one including me know how any of this came together so I guess I said all of that to say keep on speculating I guess.

What we do know is that the man stated that it started as mini.

http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=7019

"Once Marvel said they liked the first six issues of the mini-series I had written, they offered me the opportunity to turn it into an ongoing series," Hudlin told CBR News.

The thing is to pitch something means to try to sell or promote something, often in an aggressive way. That could very well be his pitch to the audience and probably is since he is printed it in the book. He even uses the term "pitch" here:

http://www.comicon.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=36&t=003297

"When I tell my non-comics reading friends I’m writing the Black Panther, they are excited…and they don’t even know why! It just sounds like it’s going to be cool. Then I tell them the pitch, and they really get excited."

So he seems to have a pitch to the audience.

Also from here:

http://www.comicbookbin.com/reggiehudlin.html

K: So did you pitch this or was it something Marvel came to you about?

RH: I had been talking to Marvel for while about doing something, and became friendly with Axel Alonso, one of their top editors.

One day I was in town so I met him for lunch. He told me it was fate because they were re-launching the character and I had to do it!

So he does not say that he pitched the idea to Marvel.

[Loren]

---------------------
Before I start getting misquoted let me say that this is all speculation.

Just to clarify, I wasn't attempting to quote you. When I said "He calls it a pitch," I was referring to Hudlin. He does so in the second-to-last sentence of the "Vision."

[bluezulu]

The problem with Hudlin's Black Panther is that he spends too much time talking about race. For an entertainment medium that is predominantly patronized by white males, this isn't how you build a popular title.

If Hudlin focused on BP as a superhero first, and then a black man, more people would come to the book. And secondly, it would allow him to focus on telling good superhero stories that also make the book more entertaining.

Personally, I would like to see BP taking on America, in general. He is a world leader, and I think that Hudlin writes him too often as an African-American. I would assume that there are many things BP finds distasteful in all Americans, black, white, or otherwise...

---------------------
I mean that sounds good and all but that did not work to well for the last writer of the Black Panther. I mean he was threatened with cancellation almost from jump street. So you know what? He told the current writer that folks will be mad what ever you do so change what you want and do what you want because in the end he has to be happy with it. So I agree on paper it might not be a good idea discussing race issues with a hostile crowd but supposedly you all don't read the book anyway so... I'm just saying. Please those who don't read the book in any form or style it is written in or stay true to your self and those that accept it accept it. Hell your parents even will tell you that right?

[The Cool Thatguy]

---------------------
I mean that sounds good and all but that did not work to well for the last writer of the Black Panther. I mean he was threatened with cancellation almost from jump street. So you know what? He told the current writer that folks will be mad what ever you do so change what you want and do what you want because in the end he has to be happy with it. So I agree on paper it might not be a good idea discussing race issues with a hostile crowd but supposedly you all don't read the book anyway so... I'm just saying. Please those who don't read the book in any form or style it is written in or stay true to your self and those that accept it accept it. Hell your parents even will tell you that right?

Considering all the advantages Hudlin has been given since the beginning, I don't think it's really fair to compare his situation to Priest's.

Priest was tolerated, at best. Hudlin was given the red carpet treatment. Vast, vast difference.

[projectnrm]

Considering all the advantages Hudlin has been given since the beginning, I don't think it's really fair to compare his situation to Priest's.

Priest was tolerated, at best. Hudlin was given the red carpet treatment. Vast, vast difference.

Also note that Daredevil was the only Marvel Knights book to really get a big push from the company. Most of the characters weren't working, so the company didn't expect much from the titles anyway. Kevin Smith's name being attached to Murdoch's adventures is what brought buzz to that title.

If Priest's Black Panther run got as many pushes from Marvel as Hudlin's has (the Storm marriage, temporary FF affiliation, etc.), I think things would have turned out much differently.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Also note that Daredevil was the only Marvel Knights book to really get a big push from the company. Most of the characters weren't working, so the company didn't expect much from the titles anyway. Kevin Smith's name being attached to Murdoch's adventures is what brought buzz to that title.

If Priest's Black Panther run got as many pushes from Marvel as Hudlin's has (the Storm marriage, temporary FF affiliation, etc.), I think things would have turned out much differently.

Definately. I hold that against Marvel though, and not Hudlin.

That said, Hudlin et all can't really use the same excuses/explanations/what have you as Priest. He was given far less to work with by far.

[bluezulu]

Considering all the advantages Hudlin has been given since the beginning, I don't think it's really fair to compare his situation to Priest's.

Priest was tolerated, at best. Hudlin was given the red carpet treatment. Vast, vast difference.

-------------------
I agree. Im glad Marvel has thrown its support at this character. I think they let a good one get away In Dwayne McDuffie if even part time. I like the things that Keven G is doing with New Warriors as well. Diversity in comics is a good thing. Give me a CAGE or Falcon on going and I will be gtg.

[RolandJP]

The problem with Hudlin's Black Panther is that he spends too much time talking about race. For an entertainment medium that is predominantly patronized by white males, this isn't how you build a popular title.

If Hudlin focused on BP as a superhero first, and then a black man, more people would come to the book. And secondly, it would allow him to focus on telling good superhero stories that also make the book more entertaining.

Personally, I would like to see BP taking on America, in general. He is a world leader, and I think that Hudlin writes him too often as an African-American. I would assume that there are many things BP finds distasteful in all Americans, black, white, or otherwise...


Actually, the problem is that talking about race is usually a one sided conversation. With minorities talking and the majority not listening. Is it possible for a superhero character from africa to ignore race?

I would love to not have race be an issue, but people keep reminding me of it daily. Be it a cop running my license plate every time i drive in certain neighborhoods, ironically the one in which I live. To being asked may I help you everytime I got into Circuit city and followed by security, while other patrons are allowed to roam free without inference.

I agree I would love to see BP explore the differences between Africans and African Americans. Having attended a historically black university and a so-called "normal" one, I can tell you many africans are perplexed by the second class citizenry projected onto US minorities. As in they do not understand why there is a constant pressure to keep them in their place. The media IE news ignores missing minority women and children but blasts the faces of missing whites ad nauseum.

[Loren]

What we do know is that the man stated that it started as mini.

http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=7019

"Once Marvel said they liked the first six issues of the mini-series I had written, they offered me the opportunity to turn it into an ongoing series," Hudlin told CBR News.

The thing is to pitch something means to try to sell or promote something, often in an aggressive way. That could very well be his pitch to the audience and probably is since he is printed it in the book.

Now I am gonna cite bluezulu here (since he's the moderator of Hudlin's own BP board, and since it doesn't appear that Hudlin ever corrected him on this point), because he said that Hudlin wrote this before the first issue. He also refers to it being "reprinted" in the trade.

It also makes a lot more sense as a pitch. Because who writes an introduction to their own book that just summarizes the rest of the book?

And that same quote of Hudlin's continues with something of note:

"I knew the next logical storyline would be T'Challa looking for a queen. Producing heirs is one of the main jobs of being king, so it would be logical that would be an immediate obligation."

So even after the first arc, he was still envisioning his second arc from the perspective of a relaunched, newly-crowned T'Challa. Not as a T'Challa who'd been king for eight years or so, and suddenly decides he must get married RIGHT NOW.


Also from here:

http://www.comicbookbin.com/reggiehudlin.html

K: So did you pitch this or was it something Marvel came to you about?

RH: I had been talking to Marvel for while about doing something, and became friendly with Axel Alonso, one of their top editors.

One day I was in town so I met him for lunch. He told me it was fate because they were re-launching the character and I had to do it!

So he does not say that he pitched the idea to Marvel.

I always did figure Marvel approached him first, since he didn't have any experience writing comics (or writing much of anything, for that matter). I assumed it went kinda like this:

- Marvel gets interested in launching a new BP series (I seem to recall there being rumor of someone else writing a BP series before Hudlin's was announced).
- Marvel approaches Hudlin to see if he'd like to write a BP series.
- Hudlin produces a pitch for Marvel, outlining what he would do with the Black Panther.
- Marvel chooses Hudlin's pitch, and commissions him to write a mini.
- At some point, Marvel decides to make Hudlin's BP project an ongoing series.

Here's something else (http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=21567&highlight=black+panther): in November 2004, the New York Times was already reporting that Hudlin's series was an ongoing, and it gave a brief hint at the second arc. This was three months before #1 hit the stands, and eight months before #6 reached stores.

Now, I suppose Hudlin and JRJR could have been working nine months ahead of release schedule, but I'm a little suspect of that. Marvel has proven in its workings with other Hollywood writers (Smith, Lindelof) that they don't tend to have whole arcs scripted, much less drawn, before soliciting them. Still, even if Hudlin HAD turned in his #6 script in October 2004 (if we assume the decision was made just before Marvel sent out a press release in mid-November), he still had plenty of time to tweak issues before they got drawn or published. This is not unknown to comic writers.

[Loren]

Also note that Daredevil was the only Marvel Knights book to really get a big push from the company.

There were only four books as part of the original 1998 Marvel Knights launch. There was Kevin Smith's Daredevil, Priest's Black Panther, Paul Jenkins' Inhumans maxi-series, and the infamous Punisher-as-supernatural-assassin.

[bluezulu]

Now I am gonna cite bluezulu here (since he's the moderator of Hudlin's own BP board, and since it doesn't appear that Hudlin ever corrected him on this point), because he said that Hudlin wrote this before the first issue. He also refers to it being "reprinted" in the trade.

It also makes a lot more sense as a pitch. Because who writes an introduction to their own book that just summarizes the rest of the book?

And that same quote of Hudlin's continues with something of note:

"I knew the next logical storyline would be T'Challa looking for a queen. Producing heirs is one of the main jobs of being king, so it would be logical that would be an immediate obligation."

So even after the first arc, he was still envisioning his second arc from the perspective of a relaunched, newly-crowned T'Challa. Not as a T'Challa who'd been king for eight years or so, and suddenly decides he must get married RIGHT NOW.



I always did figure Marvel approached him first, since he didn't have any experience writing comics (or writing much of anything, for that matter). I assumed it went kinda like this:

- Marvel gets interested in launching a new BP series (I seem to recall there being rumor of someone else writing a BP series before Hudlin's was announced).
- Marvel approaches Hudlin to see if he'd like to write a BP series.
- Hudlin produces a pitch for Marvel, outlining what he would do with the Black Panther.
- Marvel chooses Hudlin's pitch, and commissions him to write a mini.
- At some point, Marvel decides to make Hudlin's BP project an ongoing series.

Here's something else (http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=21567&highlight=black+panther): in November 2004, the New York Times was already reporting that Hudlin's series was an ongoing, and it gave a brief hint at the second arc. This was three months before #1 hit the stands, and eight months before #6 reached stores.

Now, I suppose Hudlin and JRJR could have been working nine months ahead of release schedule, but I'm a little suspect of that. Marvel has proven in its workings with other Hollywood writers (Smith, Lindelof) that they don't tend to have whole arcs scripted, much less drawn, before soliciting them. Still, even if Hudlin HAD turned in his #6 script in October 2004 (if we assume the decision was made just before Marvel sent out a press release in mid-November), he still had plenty of time to tweak issues before they got drawn or published. This is not unknown to comic writers.

----------------------
Damn good work. Yall see what supporters say when we say some of the detractors are in fact some of the biggest supporters of the book?;)

I will say this about your post however, he has worked fast. Never late not once. In fact he runs a TV network and still puts out a book on time. Quasada ( a great artist imo) says all the time how difficult it is to meet deadlines and run marvel at the same time and he has a lot of help. I bet you some of the confusion over the Skrull/frog/FF/Zombie arc wasn't Hudlin but more of an Administrative/ editorial one. I say this because he has been on time for 25 plus issues it wasn't until Storm went back to Uncanny and the Cap death did they leave in story. I wonder if part of the Galactic Hopping and the length the story was partly editorial mandate. Maybe not just speculating.

[Loren]

I will say this about your post however, he has worked fast. Never late not once.

I almost threw in a nod to that, because despite all my problems with his writing, the guy still puts out a book on a regular basis. I think out of all the Hollywood guys Marvel has taken on in the last few years, only Hudlin and Roberto Aguirre-Sacasa have managed to stick to a monthly schedule. And JMS, but that's going back a ways.

Smith, Lindelof, Whedon, Heinberg...all have proven unreliable in their ability to produce serialized material.

[GalactaSurfer]

The problem with Hudlin's Black Panther is that he spends too much time talking about race. For an entertainment medium that is predominantly patronized by white males, this isn't how you build a popular title.

If Hudlin focused on BP as a superhero first, and then a black man, more people would come to the book. And secondly, it would allow him to focus on telling good superhero stories that also make the book more entertaining.

Personally, I would like to see BP taking on America, in general. He is a world leader, and I think that Hudlin writes him too often as an African-American. I would assume that there are many things BP finds distasteful in all Americans, black, white, or otherwise...

Talking about race: He's a blackman writing for a black readership who is most recent history is very much about race.

Predominantly patronized by white males: Even though this is true he not writing it to appel to white males, Preist made this mistake.

And then a black man: Again you want him to pander to the white males thats not gonna happen. In Hudlins book BP is a blackman fist and foremost.

Writes him too often as an African-American: Because he's trying to appel to AA's obvisosly. It's the same with everyother comic character they've been tweeked to appel to white males. (why the hell does Thor speak like shakesphere?)

[XPac]

Talking about race: He's a blackman writing for a black readership who is most recent history is very much about race.

Predominantly patronized by white males: Even though this is true he not writing it to appel to white males, Preist made this mistake.

And then a black man: Again you want him to pander to the white males thats not gonna happen. In Hudlins book BP is a blackman fist and foremost.

Writes him too often as an African-American: Because he's trying to appel to AA's obvisosly. It's the same with everyother comic character they've been tweeked to appel to white males. (why the hell does Thor speak like shakesphere?)

Is it naive of me to think that a writer shouldn't have to cater to a black or white readers? Can't they just write good stories to readers in general?

Was Priest really writing to appeal to white males? Did black males not like his book? I just don't get that.

[El Santo]

Yes, it's naive, but you're right, in theory at least. Priest had a better sense of plotting, but he had a tendency to distance the reader from the title character too much. It was often more like a book about people who hung around with Black Panther, rather than a Black Panther book.

In any case, I gave up on Hudlin months ago, when I got tired of his obsession with Marvel Zombies. Marvel Zombies suck, Kirkman is overrated, and Hudlin needs to take a break from this comic.

[Dagger]

Is it naive of me to think that a writer shouldn't have to cater to a black or white readers? Can't they just write good stories to readers in general?

Was Priest really writing to appeal to white males? Did black males not like his book? I just don't get that.
Doesn't make any sense to me, either. I'd rather read a good story, no matter the race of the character.

[XPac]

Yes, it's naive, but you're right, in theory at least. Priest had a better sense of plotting, but he had a tendency to distance the reader from the title character too much. It was often more like a book about people who hung around with Black Panther, rather than a Black Panther book.

In any case, I gave up on Hudlin months ago, when I got tired of his obsession with Marvel Zombies. Marvel Zombies suck, Kirkman is overrated, and Hudlin needs to take a break from this comic.

All I know is that I'm not white, but I though Priests Black Panther book was pretty dam good. Go figure.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Is it naive of me to think that a writer shouldn't have to cater to a black or white readers? Can't they just write good stories to readers in general?

Was Priest really writing to appeal to white males? Did black males not like his book? I just don't get that.

DING DING DING..... thats is perfect. Good writers write good stories and try to make them appeal to everyone. SEE ED BRUBAKER as an example.

[El Santo]

I'm not white either, I also enjoyed Priest's BP (well, as much of it as I could find in TPBs), but there are valid criticisms of his work. Hudlin has done a much better job of making the book about *Black Panther*, not his American State Department sidekick, or the dysfunctional NYPD cop who will someday replace the Black Panther.

For all the complaints I have about Hudlin's BP, he's never made T'Challa a guest star in his own book.

[The Cool Thatguy]

I'm not white either, I also enjoyed Priest's BP (well, as much of it as I could find in TPBs), but there are valid criticisms of his work. Hudlin has done a much better job of making the book about *Black Panther*, not his American State Department sidekick, or the dysfunctional NYPD cop who will someday replace the Black Panther.

For all the complaints I have about Hudlin's BP, he's never made T'Challa a guest star in his own book.

Actually, that's exactly what he's doing right now, with his 'new' FF team. The Zombie arc focused on Johnny some by having an alternate version of his wife there and this arc focuses on a world Ben helped changed.

Furthermore, T'Challa has no real supporting cast outside of Storm, and we're 33 issues in. In comparison, Priest had already a full fledged supporting cast, recurring villains and subplots by this point.

[El Santo]

Well, I never said that Hudlin was a better writer. I'll have to stand corrected regarding the most recent developments, as I left the book around the time the new FF (which still focused on T'Challa as a sort of makeshift Mr. Fantastic) were in the Marvel Zombies universe. I didn't feel like Johnny was much of a focus at that point...it was like 3 panels where he sees what he thinks is his wife, and that's it. Didn't she get eaten not too long after that?

Hudlin is generally focused on T'Challa, and attempts to make him look as competent as possible, even to the point of being ridiculous, or making other characters looks less competent. I'm thinking of Luke Cage around the time T'Challa was looking for a bride, where the mature, level-headed Cage that Bendis was writing in Alias and The Pulse suddenly becomes a star-struck goober.

I won't complain about Monica Rambeau in the New Orleans arc, because she's usually written as an idiot who doesn't really think about using her powers. And if she had been using them correctly, there wouldn't have been a story arc. One woman made of sunlight vs. Army of Vampires = A helluva lot of vampire dust and some really bored readers.

It's easier to appreciate what Hudlin was doing before "in theory"...he comes from a cinema background, and is best known for his comedies (Boomerang, House Party), which is pretty much the opposite tone of what Priest was doing. Hudlin clearly wanted to get as many guest appearances by black superheroes crammed in as possible, probably because he didn't know how long the book would last. But now he's blown a full wad of guest appearances, a lot of those guests have gone who-knows-where, so what has he got left? He's committed himself to this FF thing, which was nice for a lark but kind of annoying in the long-run, while the only interesting villain he's got (The Cannibal) is literally a million miles away.

He should've made this arc much shorter, and left the new FF stuff to MacDuffie. Clearly he's trying to set up some continuity between the two books, but there's a good reason why Marvel doesn't usually sync up their books. This is why.

[bluezulu]

Absolutely not accurate. No need for 100 post back and forth but I totally disagree with this statement. I will say that more marketing twist have been needed to make sure this book ie the character get placed center stage in the Marvel U. However a lot of books get pub, press A1 artist etc. and they don't get hated on for it. The Panther is the star here. He shares equal billing with Storm inside the book despite the title still being the Black Panther. IMO im sure some will disagree substance of stories have not been sacrificed to get Tchalla out there. How else could it be done. The fanboys like to use rushed and forced but how much time is there to get what Marvel and Hudlin stated they want to do with the Character. Make him a major player in the Marvel U. In the end if Hudlin walked away from the character today, he would be in better shape character wise then the limbo he was in after the Priest series. Tchala was removed from his own title in order to try to have a more Americanized Panther for the fans. Let's not forget the brain aneurysm (sp). I loved the character of Kasper Cole but him being the Black Panther ain't a good look for the character of Tchala. So compared to that Tchala still has top billing.

[El Santo]

Wait...you disagree with me, but didn't I just say that what Hudlin has done best is spotlight the character? I stopped enjoying the book when he sent them out into space for half a year, and I don't always like his plotting, but I don't think he can be faulted for trying to bury the character, because all he's done is try to put T'Challa at the forefront of things.

I don't understand why Storm couldn't also lead one of the X-Men teams while being married to T'Challa. It's not like the commute would slow her down; she flies pretty fast, and those Wakandan planes are ridiculous.

[bluezulu]

Well, I never said that Hudlin was a better writer. I'll have to stand corrected regarding the most recent developments, as I left the book around the time the new FF (which still focused on T'Challa as a sort of makeshift Mr. Fantastic) were in the Marvel Zombies universe. I didn't feel like Johnny was much of a focus at that point...it was like 3 panels where he sees what he thinks is his wife, and that's it. Didn't she get eaten not too long after that?

Hudlin is generally focused on T'Challa, and attempts to make him look as competent as possible, even to the point of being ridiculous, or making other characters looks less competent. I'm thinking of Luke Cage around the time T'Challa was looking for a bride, where the mature, level-headed Cage that Bendis was writing in Alias and The Pulse suddenly becomes a star-struck goober.

I won't complain about Monica Rambeau in the New Orleans arc, because she's usually written as an idiot who doesn't really think about using her powers. And if she had been using them correctly, there wouldn't have been a story arc. One woman made of sunlight vs. Army of Vampires = A helluva lot of vampire dust and some really bored readers.

It's easier to appreciate what Hudlin was doing before "in theory"...he comes from a cinema background, and is best known for his comedies (Boomerang, House Party), which is pretty much the opposite tone of what Priest was doing. Hudlin clearly wanted to get as many guest appearances by black superheroes crammed in as possible, probably because he didn't know how long the book would last. But now he's blown a full wad of guest appearances, a lot of those guests have gone who-knows-where, so what has he got left? He's committed himself to this FF thing, which was nice for a lark but kind of annoying in the long-run, while the only interesting villain he's got (The Cannibal) is literally a million miles away.

He should've made this arc much shorter, and left the new FF stuff to MacDuffie. Clearly he's trying to set up some continuity between the two books, but there's a good reason why Marvel doesn't usually sync up their books. This is why.
------------------------
A lot of good measured balanced points here. I will say that in some ways Tchala speaking to Monica about her powers were the same as me and you speaking to her. Monica on these boards and others have been debaited as an class 100 hero. It could be debaited that she is in the top 10 power class but has not been consistently portrayed that way. I only remember writers making a big deal (it is but still ) that she could travel at light speeds. Ok she can go places fast but her powers are much more then that. It is a regular thing for Hudlin to add easter eggs in his story. Had a poster who was a big Triathalon fan and jokingly Triathalon showed up a guess at the wedding. A lot of small things like that.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

I don't understand why Storm couldn't also lead one of the X-Men teams while being married to T'Challa. It's not like the commute would slow her down; she flies pretty fast, and those Wakandan planes are ridiculous.

You must not have followed much of the X-Men recently. She just came out of a story-arc where she led the team in the Morlock arc.

[El Santo]

Actually, I haven't. I just remember the massive bitching about her not being able to appear in X-Men anymore just because she got hitched, which struck me as being the most ridiculous crap I'd ever heard. If Wolverine can appear in half of Marvel's titles monthly, Storm can manage a few trans-atlantic commutes. Might as well flaunt some of that Wakandan technology....she could probably still teach at the Academy. I had college professors who made 2+ hour commutes to teach classes...I can't imagine it takes a Wakandan plane much longer than that to fly to New York. It's a freaking comic book, after all.

[The Cool Thatguy]

------------------------
A lot of good measured balanced points here. I will say that in some ways Tchala speaking to Monica about her powers were the same as me and you speaking to her. Monica on these boards and others have been debaited as an class 100 hero. It could be debaited that she is in the top 10 power class but has not been consistently portrayed that way. I only remember writers making a big deal (it is but still ) that she could travel at light speeds. Ok she can go places fast but her powers are much more then that. It is a regular thing for Hudlin to add easter eggs in his story. Had a poster who was a big Triathalon fan and jokingly Triathalon showed up a guess at the wedding. A lot of small things like that.

Huh? I honestly don't recall there being any debate about Photon in terms of power. She brought down the force feilds of Thanos' spaceship, hurt Zeus and was Baron Zemo's number 1 concern when planning an attack on Avengers Mansion.

Hell, Dwayne McDuffie changed her powers, IIRC because she was seen as too powerful. Hudlin isn't the first writer to recognize her as powerful by any measure.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Actually, I haven't. I just remember the massive bitching about her not being able to appear in X-Men anymore just because she got hitched, which struck me as being the most ridiculous crap I'd ever heard. If Wolverine can appear in half of Marvel's titles monthly, Storm can manage a few trans-atlantic commutes. Might as well flaunt some of that Wakandan technology....she could probably still teach at the Academy. I had college professors who made 2+ hour commutes to teach classes...I can't imagine it takes a Wakandan plane much longer than that to fly to New York. It's a freaking comic book, after all.

They have been giving Storm and Panther a huge push the last few months. Storm's been in FF and the X-Books. Its just that it never translated into those fans jumping to Black Panther like Marvel has wanted.

[Loren]

In the end if Hudlin walked away from the character today, he would be in better shape character wise then the limbo he was in after the Priest series.

How so? In 33 issues, what has Hudlin done to contribute to the character of the Black Panther? If Hudlin did walk away today, what new toys would the next writer have to play with?

Hudlin hasn't developed T'Challa any further than he'd been developed under Priest. He hasn't displayed his ingenuity or technological prowess in any ways that Priest hadn't done better. Hudlin's chief contributions on this point have been to provide T'Challa with a magic suit of armor he built, and a magic sword appropriated from another Marvel hero. And this may be McDuffie's contribution, but when we were finally shown T'Challa's Galactus Contingency Plan (as teased by Priest), what was it? Magic frogs.

I'm not one to consider an increased reliance on magic to be a boon to the character of the Black Panther. Maybe you differ.

Hudlin hasn't done jack-squat in developing T'Challa's supporting cast, and in fact has taken great strides BACKWARDS. He's stripped the Dora Milaje of any distinguishing features, characterization, or even names. They're now just two interchangeable hot chick bodyguards. He's ignored all of T'Challa's Wakandan political associates, outside of the occasional cameo. And he hasn't created a single new character that a subsequent writer might actually be interested in picking up.

He hasn't provided any memorable conflicts with any BP rogues. Or any rogues, for that matter. He went and undid just about everything Priest did to elevate Man-Ape to serious villain status, instead depicting him as a drunken fool. If Hudlin left today, the next writer would be well-advised to ignore Hudlin's bit with Man-Ape, and revert back to Priest's version.

He's done his best to avoid Wakanda. The one thing that sets the Black Panther apart from just about any other hero in the Marvel Universe is that he's the king of a sovereign nation. That's one of the tools a writer has to tell a story that uniquely a BP story, and not just a Batman story with the names changed. Hudlin hasn't added anything to Wakanda (outside of the first arc, which we've all agreed isn't in continuity anymore) that a subsequent author will benefit from. On a related note, he hasn't added anything to the BP mythos that a subsequent author will benefit from.

Frankly, in the last 27 issues, I can only think of one real, lasting contribution he's made to the Black Panther: T'Challa's marriage to Storm. Like it or not, the next writer will have to deal with that.

But other than that, if Hudlin left tomorrow, how would his stories have put the next writer in any better position than if he'd left immediately after #6? How is T'Challa, as a character, in better shape circa #33 than he was circa #7?

[The Cool Thatguy]

How so? In 33 issues, what has Hudlin done to contribute to the character of the Black Panther? If Hudlin did walk away today, what new toys would the next writer have to play with?

Hudlin hasn't developed T'Challa any further than he'd been developed under Priest. He hasn't displayed his ingenuity or technological prowess in any ways that Priest hadn't done better. Hudlin's chief contributions on this point have been to provide T'Challa with a magic suit of armor he built, and a magic sword appropriated from another Marvel hero. And this may be McDuffie's contribution, but when we were finally shown T'Challa's Galactus Contingency Plan (as teased by Priest), what was it? Magic frogs.

I'm not one to consider an increased reliance on magic to be a boon to the character of the Black Panther. Maybe you differ.

Hudlin hasn't done jack-squat in developing T'Challa's supporting cast, and in fact has taken great strides BACKWARDS. He's stripped the Dora Milaje of any distinguishing features, characterization, or even names. They're now just two interchangeable hot chick bodyguards. He's ignored all of T'Challa's Wakandan political associates, outside of the occasional cameo. And he hasn't created a single new character that a subsequent writer might actually be interested in picking up.

He hasn't provided any memorable conflicts with any BP rogues. Or any rogues, for that matter. He went and undid just about everything Priest did to elevate Man-Ape to serious villain status, instead depicting him as a drunken fool. If Hudlin left today, the next writer would be well-advised to ignore Hudlin's bit with Man-Ape, and revert back to Priest's version.

He's done his best to avoid Wakanda. The one thing that sets the Black Panther apart from just about any other hero in the Marvel Universe is that he's the king of a sovereign nation. That's one of the tools a writer has to tell a story that uniquely a BP story, and not just a Batman story with the names changed. Hudlin hasn't added anything to Wakanda (outside of the first arc, which we've all agreed isn't in continuity anymore) that a subsequent author will benefit from. On a related note, he hasn't added anything to the BP mythos that a subsequent author will benefit from.

Frankly, in the last 27 issues, I can only think of one real, lasting contribution he's made to the Black Panther: T'Challa's marriage to Storm. Like it or not, the next writer will have to deal with that.

But other than that, if Hudlin left tomorrow, how would his stories have put the next writer in any better position than if he'd left immediately after #6? How is T'Challa, as a character, in better shape circa #33 than he was circa #7?

Well, playing the Devil's Advocate here, T'Challa doesn't have a brain aneurysm. Because Heaven forbid that a hero have a weakness!

[HepOne]

They have been giving Storm and Panther a huge push the last few months. Storm's been in FF and the X-Books. Its just that it never translated into those fans jumping to Black Panther like Marvel has wanted.

I think everyone (including marvel) understands that Black Panther has a limited fanbase and Hudlin is attempting to cater to that. The reason why 'marriage of the century' and Civil War was pushed was to give BP and Storm visibility.

The Priest run is well remmembered but never referenced because it didnt have any affects on the Marvel U. Changes at cancelation were- the inoperable brain aneurysm, Kasper Cole=BP and BP lost his nation again.
With an unknown legacy character and 'crazy' T'Challa you cant launch a new BP book so these changes were forgotton. The aim from Queseda/Hudlin/Alonso was to make Panther relevant to the MU so this cant happen again.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

How so? In 33 issues, what has Hudlin done to contribute to the character of the Black Panther? If Hudlin did walk away today, what new toys would the next writer have to play with?

Hudlin hasn't developed T'Challa any further than he'd been developed under Priest. He hasn't displayed his ingenuity or technological prowess in any ways that Priest hadn't done better. Hudlin's chief contributions on this point have been to provide T'Challa with a magic suit of armor he built, and a magic sword appropriated from another Marvel hero. And this may be McDuffie's contribution, but when we were finally shown T'Challa's Galactus Contingency Plan (as teased by Priest), what was it? Magic frogs.

I'm not one to consider an increased reliance on magic to be a boon to the character of the Black Panther. Maybe you differ.

Hudlin hasn't done jack-squat in developing T'Challa's supporting cast, and in fact has taken great strides BACKWARDS. He's stripped the Dora Milaje of any distinguishing features, characterization, or even names. They're now just two interchangeable hot chick bodyguards. He's ignored all of T'Challa's Wakandan political associates, outside of the occasional cameo. And he hasn't created a single new character that a subsequent writer might actually be interested in picking up.

He hasn't provided any memorable conflicts with any BP rogues. Or any rogues, for that matter. He went and undid just about everything Priest did to elevate Man-Ape to serious villain status, instead depicting him as a drunken fool. If Hudlin left today, the next writer would be well-advised to ignore Hudlin's bit with Man-Ape, and revert back to Priest's version.

He's done his best to avoid Wakanda. The one thing that sets the Black Panther apart from just about any other hero in the Marvel Universe is that he's the king of a sovereign nation. That's one of the tools a writer has to tell a story that uniquely a BP story, and not just a Batman story with the names changed. Hudlin hasn't added anything to Wakanda (outside of the first arc, which we've all agreed isn't in continuity anymore) that a subsequent author will benefit from. On a related note, he hasn't added anything to the BP mythos that a subsequent author will benefit from.

Frankly, in the last 27 issues, I can only think of one real, lasting contribution he's made to the Black Panther: T'Challa's marriage to Storm. Like it or not, the next writer will have to deal with that.

But other than that, if Hudlin left tomorrow, how would his stories have put the next writer in any better position than if he'd left immediately after #6? How is T'Challa, as a character, in better shape circa #33 than he was circa #7?

And maybe its me but I can't see the next EIC keeping the marriage intact since its basically never delivered anything regarding long term fans , has been made the butt of jokes (Comics Buyers Guide : When did Storm marry Black Panther ? Does Forge know ?) and has showed a lack of interest from anyone.

I can't see it sticking since its not really got a foundation that really was essential to telling good stories. The whole "Panther needs a Queen to knock up and be in the Kitchen" I can't see an EIC that comes in accepting . So she'll be an imposter of some kinds eventually.;)

[The Cool Thatguy]

I think everyone (including marvel) understands that Black Panther has a limited fanbase and Hudlin is attempting to cater to that. The reason why 'marriage of the century' and Civil War was pushed was to give BP and Storm visibility.

The Priest run is well remmembered but never referenced because it didnt have any affects on the Marvel U. Changes at cancelation were- the inoperable brain aneurysm, Kasper Cole=BP and BP lost his nation again.
With an unknown legacy character and 'crazy' T'Challa you cant launch a new BP book so these changes were forgotton. The aim from Queseda/Hudlin/Alonso was to make Panther relevant to the MU so this cant happen again.

Priest's run was never referenced because the next guy to use Panther functionally wiped it out.

I remember way back when, Priest commented that he didn't want to rock the boat too much because he A) didn't want to screw the next guy to write Panther and B) he thought later writers would actually ignore him. I actually thought he was being too pessimistic. Live and learn.

[Loren]

I'm not white either, I also enjoyed Priest's BP (well, as much of it as I could find in TPBs), but there are valid criticisms of his work. Hudlin has done a much better job of making the book about *Black Panther*, not his American State Department sidekick, or the dysfunctional NYPD cop who will someday replace the Black Panther.

For all the complaints I have about Hudlin's BP, he's never made T'Challa a guest star in his own book.

The Kasper arc is one thing, but during Priest's first 49 issues, the series was never *about* Ross. It was always about T'Challa. Ross was the narrator (though a lot of people tend to forget how QDJ narrated issues too, and how the narration decreased as the series went on), but he was always just along for the ride. Stuff happened TO Ross. Stuff happened BECAUSE OF T'Challa.

Throughout the series, T'Challa never stopped being the prime mover. It wasn't fill-in-the-blank superhero writing. Every story was uniquely tied to decisions and actions T'Challa made. Oftentimes they were decisions and actions that only a person in his position (i.e., a king and a genius) COULD make. He orchestrated events. He declared wars. When others took action against him, their actions were specifically designed against King T'Challa, the Black Panther. Even during the Kasper arcs, T'Challa was still there, pulling strings. Marvel didn't care if T'Challa disappeared entirely, and other writers might have dropped him, but Priest kept him in, continuing his role as a master orchestrator. Just more behind-the-scenes than before.

If you removed Ross and replaced him with some other narrator, it would only change the narrative voice. If you removed T'Challa and tried to pair Ross up with some other superhero, the entire book would collapse. Other than "Saddles Ablaze," the series was wholly and irrefutably dependent upon its title character. It was never dependent upon Ross.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

I think everyone (including marvel) understands that Black Panther has a limited fanbase and Hudlin is attempting to cater to that. The reason why 'marriage of the century' and Civil War was pushed was to give BP and Storm visibility.

The Priest run is well remmembered but never referenced because it didnt have any affects on the Marvel U. Changes at cancelation were- the inoperable brain aneurysm, Kasper Cole=BP and BP lost his nation again.
With an unknown legacy character and 'crazy' T'Challa you cant launch a new BP book so these changes were forgotton. The aim from Queseda/Hudlin/Alonso was to make Panther relevant to the MU so this cant happen again.

The fact that they have pushed the book into all events and tie-ins tells us at home this series would have died already. There is a reason to get the character into events like Civil War , to give the characters roles in FF. Its to try and get readership to at least stay in the 30,000-35,000 range.

You can have a relevant character. You can make Panther guest star in other books like Avengers , FF and elsewhere. But his status will never raise above the B/C Level where he's deemed by the fanbase in comics. Its best to try and get a "hot writer" tyo give the title a sales jolt perhaps and see if someone like a JMS or Ed Brubaker can come in and add 10-15,000 readers perhaps ?

But essentially they at Marvel at least wanted this book to stay above the 25,000 line. But its already slid back down to 28,000 from a high of 50,000+ months ago and where is the bottom at where BP can hit ? When do you as a company pretty much call in a creative team shakeup and put a new writer on the series ? If BP is important to Marvel perhaps its time to start thinking.... ok time to bring in a HEAVY HITTER.

[Loren]

Well, playing the Devil's Advocate here, T'Challa doesn't have a brain aneurysm. Because Heaven forbid that a hero have a weakness!

Y'know, the complaints about the brain aneurysm have always struck me as a little odd. It was designed as a 'weakness' that didn't affect the character in any measurable way at all. It didn't have to affect his physical prowess, or his mental state, or his capacity as king, unless the writer eventually said it did. It just laid there, waiting for a time to be utilized. Maybe it would affect him one day. Maybe he'd live a full life and it'd never be a problem.

And heck, if a writer really felt compelled to get rid of it, it would just take a phone call for T'Challa to be in touch with Dr. Strange, and for Strange to whip up a cure. It's such an easy out that merely retconning it away strikes me as lazy.

[Loren]

The Priest run is well remmembered but never referenced because it didnt have any affects on the Marvel U. Changes at cancelation were- the inoperable brain aneurysm, Kasper Cole=BP and BP lost his nation again.
With an unknown legacy character and 'crazy' T'Challa you cant launch a new BP book so these changes were forgotton. The aim from Queseda/Hudlin/Alonso was to make Panther relevant to the MU so this cant happen again.

And if that was their aim, then what have they done in the last 33 issues to make Panther relevant in a way that Priest hadn't?

Heck, sending your title character to alien planets in alternate dimensions for nine straight months is a pretty far cry from making him relevant to the MU.

[HepOne]

Y'know, the complaints about the brain aneurysm have always struck me as a little odd. It was designed as a 'weakness' that didn't affect the character in any measurable way at all.

I'm just reading Wikipedia here but wasnt it a plot point at the end:


T'Challa finds he has a brain aneurysm like his alternate future self, and succumbs to instability and hallucinations. After his mental state almost causes tribal warfare, the Panther hands power to his council and hides in New York City.

[Loren]

I'm just reading Wikipedia here but wasnt it a plot point at the end:

I suppose it was. I always saw that as being equally a product of his grief. Because when he showed up during the Kasper issues, he might've looked a bit rough, but mentally he seemed fully there.

I guess I was thinking more about the aneurysm when it was first established. Like I said, it could lay there as long as necessary, until a writer wanted or needed to use it. And as things turned out, Priest had a need for it come #49: it was a means of temporarily removing T'Challa as the focus of the book, in order for Kasper to take center stage.

[El Santo]

Well yes, and that's the problem, isn't it? Removing the main character because you'd rather write about someone else? I enjoyed Kasper in The Crew...and you know what? Him taking up face-time there made sense, since he was one of the main characters. In a book called "Black Panther", the story should, you know, revolve around the Black Panther, T'Challa, or someone else of a similar background. Handing over the reigns to some random dude from Brooklyn seems kind of retarded.

[El Santo]

The Kasper arc is one thing, but during Priest's first 49 issues, the series was never *about* Ross. It was always about T'Challa. Ross was the narrator (though a lot of people tend to forget how QDJ narrated issues too, and how the narration decreased as the series went on), but he was always just along for the ride. Stuff happened TO Ross. Stuff happened BECAUSE OF T'Challa.

Throughout the series, T'Challa never stopped being the prime mover. It wasn't fill-in-the-blank superhero writing. Every story was uniquely tied to decisions and actions T'Challa made. Oftentimes they were decisions and actions that only a person in his position (i.e., a king and a genius) COULD make. He orchestrated events. He declared wars. When others took action against him, their actions were specifically designed against King T'Challa, the Black Panther. Even during the Kasper arcs, T'Challa was still there, pulling strings. Marvel didn't care if T'Challa disappeared entirely, and other writers might have dropped him, but Priest kept him in, continuing his role as a master orchestrator. Just more behind-the-scenes than before.

If you removed Ross and replaced him with some other narrator, it would only change the narrative voice. If you removed T'Challa and tried to pair Ross up with some other superhero, the entire book would collapse. Other than "Saddles Ablaze," the series was wholly and irrefutably dependent upon its title character. It was never dependent upon Ross.
Irregardless, the reliance on an outside narrator moved the focus of the readers' sympathy to someone else. When you read a Batman comic, you're usually watching just Batman, and any narration is either his internal monologue, or an invisible omnipotent narrator. By creating a narrator character, Priest was giving the reader someone to "relate" to, rather than trying to force the reader to relate to T'Challa. Priest has stated on his website that his run on Black Panther was an attempt to sell the character to non-African Americans. I believe he thought that by offering a hapless, sarcastic, likeable white guy to relate to, he figured he could then show everyone how awesome Black Panther was through Ross' eyes. Judging from the nostalgia long-time fans have for Priest's run, I'd say he succeeded there, but apparently he failed to craft a large enough audience to support the book.

In a way, Hudlin is also afraid to force the reader to relate to T'Challa, but he deals with it by trying to make T'Challa more "American" or mainstream. He speaks and acts more like a highly intelligent American man than an African super-genius with mystical powers. His early arcs were a fairly straightforward "Africans vs. Imperialism" story, a throwaway House of M issue, an homage to 70's martial arts/blaxploitation (just look at the covers for his team-up with Shang-Chi and Luke Cage...), a "very special issue" about Hurricane Katrina (heavy handed symbolism of poor blacks being threatened by racist white vampires), and then a romance story that marries two of the most visible black superheroes in existence (I can't think of any non-white super who has gotten more facetime in the past 15 years than Storm).

Clearly, the guy was trying to draw in black comic book fans, or create a new black fanbase for Marvel. Whether he succeeded or not is a question for someone with demographic data. Whether he succeeded in writing good comics is a whole 'nother discussion. But his intent seems fairly clear. But I think he got sidetracked after the Civil War ended, and his tense standoffs against Tony Stark were scheduled to end. Sending him into another universe to fight super-zombies was not, in my humble opinion, the best solution.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Well yes, and that's the problem, isn't it? Removing the main character because you'd rather write about someone else? I enjoyed Kasper in The Crew...and you know what? Him taking up face-time there made sense, since he was one of the main characters. In a book called "Black Panther", the story should, you know, revolve around the Black Panther, T'Challa, or someone else of a similar background. Handing over the reigns to some random dude from Brooklyn seems kind of retarded.

Plenty of characters have been replaced by other characters in their own book, though. Wonder Woman, Captain America, Batman have all been replaced at one time or another, always with the intent to show why that character isn't as good as the original.

That's basically what Kasper was meant to do, and what he did. His struggling through half assed trials and barely controlling Panther's powers and resources demonstrated just how smooth T'Challa was.

[bluedmighty]

Plenty of characters have been replaced by other characters in their own book, though. Wonder Woman, Captain America, Batman have all been replaced at one time or another, always with the intent to show why that character isn't as good as the original.

That's basically what Kasper was meant to do, and what he did. His struggling through half assed trials and barely controlling Panther's powers and resources demonstrated just how smooth T'Challa was.

I can't argue with that.

It just (get ready) "seems to me",

That it was Priest's M.O. during the series to show just how smooth T'challa was, THROUGH everybody but T'challa.

"Ross" and Kasper were IMO, attempts to water down the the character.

(Disclaimer: General Statement to follw)

Priest was trying to sell the Panther to a, largely, Cuacasion market.

In his mind, he had to find a way to present a comic that wasn't about a "Black Super hero" and his supiriority, and prowess.

One way to do that was to introduce a "Ross" type character for comic relief and for the "Universal" audiance to catch onto.

Once the "Ross" angle had been explored. He moved to the Americanization of the Panther and introduced a Maloto police officer that would take his place momentarily. Again, People are buying and reading a book called Black Panther. BUT, were they buying it for T'challa or these other Characters?

The term "Black Power" or the representation of it CAN (not does) offend SOME (not all) people.

[The Cool Thatguy]

I can't argue with that.

It just (get ready) "seems to me",

That it was Priest's M.O. during the series to show just how smooth T'challa was, THROUGH everybody but T'challa.

Well, duh. A character can't stay mysterious for long if you can see what he's thinking


Ross" and Kasper were IMO, attempts to water down the the character.

(Disclaimer: General Statement to follw)

Priest was trying to sell the Panther to a, largely, Cuacasion market.

I always got the impression he was shooting down the middle. Avoiding the pitfalls of aiming for only one market. Doesn't make sense to drive away the majority of the reading community, after all.

I
In his mind, he had to find a way to present a comic that wasn't about a "Black Super hero" and his supiriority, and prowess.

One way to do that was to introduce a "Ross" type character for comic relief and for the "Universal" audiance to catch onto.

...did you even read the series? Because 90% of it was what you've said it 'wasn't about'.

Panther was one step ahead of everyone, whupping ass in a grand fashion. Ross served as narrator and by in large, just to be wrong about Panther.

99% of the time he was terrified, in awe, or just plain stunned by T'Challa's actions. Ross was, in even parody, hardly a flattering depiction of white readers if one accepts the various arguements (and Ross shouldn't be, given the whole 'out of his element' thing).


Once the "Ross" angle had been explored. He moved to the Americanization of the Panther and introduced a Maloto police officer that would take his place momentarily. Again, People are buying and reading a book called Black Panther. BUT, were they buying it for T'challa or these other Characters?.

Couple of observations.

1) You skipped over Queen Divine Justice, an African American female who served much of the sahem function as Ross, only a thousands times more capable and actually drove some plots by her own character. Why?

2) Supporting casts are vital to a good series. The best ones draw out the title character's traits. Without that, the heroes become duller, flatter. Just because it draws a little attention away from the title character doesn't mean it's a bad thing (especially as that attention still reflects on the main character).

[bluezulu]

Well, duh. A character can't stay mysterious for long if you can see what he's thinking



I always got the impression he was shooting down the middle. Avoiding the pitfalls of aiming for only one market. Doesn't make sense to drive away the majority of the reading community, after all.

I

...did you even read the series? Because 90% of it was what you've said it 'wasn't about'.

Panther was one step ahead of everyone, whupping ass in a grand fashion. Ross served as narrator and by in large, just to be wrong about Panther.

99% of the time he was terrified, in awe, or just plain stunned by T'Challa's actions. Ross was, in even parody, hardly a flattering depiction of white readers if one accepts the various arguements (and Ross shouldn't be, given the whole 'out of his element' thing).



Couple of observations.

1) You skipped over Queen Divine Justice, an African American female who served much of the sahem function as Ross, only a thousands times more capable and actually drove some plots by her own character. Why?

2) Supporting casts are vital to a good series. The best ones draw out the title character's traits. Without that, the heroes become duller, flatter. Just because it draws a little attention away from the title character doesn't mean it's a bad thing (especially as that attention still reflects on the main character).

--------------------------
I agree with just about all of this. For a lot of the reasons you listed made me love Priest series. It is damn near criminal for him to not be writing at either of the big two today. In no way does my love for Priest series ( i have almost the whole series except for a half dozen issues) detract from my enjoyment of the current run. While I can see why some of the old fans might not like some of the changes initially but now that a lot of the past cannon have been brought back in I don't understand the current furor. Ross is in this series just not the same. The forward thinking Tchala is in this series it is simply that the reader has to make that determination and not have a character Ross tell them about the oohs and ahhs of Panther's cunning. The very book in question had Tchala con the skrulls to demonstrate their device so that the heroes on earth could get a signal of where the heroes where. While some may prefer the annexation of Alaska by Tchala to prove a point from the last series both show the gut of the character always thinking ahead.

To me a Priest v/s Hudlin debate is a waste of time. Priest been out the game 2 years and still has more experience then a lot of the Marvel young guns combines. It aint fair. When Stan Lee recruited you to work for Marvel that is all the pedigree you need. I am not going to even get into the brother v/s brother stuff, not the place but when Priest endorses the current run I don't see the problem. If the fans support the character by writing Marvel and the powers that be that they will like more of the panther or if more writers could see his value as a character then maybe he can get his position back on the Avengers or join Storm for adventures with the x-men. Ask yall selfs a question especially with the threads about the lack of good black heroes in books. Why is it that the last series to star a black lead and the latest to have a black lead get so much opposition. Not just from the internet I am talking about other readers, creators every body.

[HepOne]

Plenty of characters have been replaced by other characters in their own book, though. Wonder Woman, Captain America, Batman have all been replaced at one time or another, always with the intent to show why that character isn't as good as the original.

That's basically what Kasper was meant to do, and what he did. His struggling through half assed trials and barely controlling Panther's powers and resources demonstrated just how smooth T'Challa was.

The problem with this is that you compared Black Panther to comic legends. Wonder Woman, Captain Ammerica and Batman have had ongoing comics printed non stop since the 1940s. The problem every Black Panther writer (includin Kirby) has had is that the book can be cancelled at any time- even mid story. If the writer doesnt write these stories now, he wont have the chance to. If Black Panther is cancelled tommorow it is unlikly that he will get another ongoing until at least 2010+ or ever again (see Dr Strange, Quasar, Darkhawk, Silver Surfer etc.)

[The Cool Thatguy]

The problem with this is that you compared Black Panther to comic legends. Wonder Woman, Captain Ammerica and Batman have had ongoing comics printed non stop since the 1940s. The problem every Black Panther writer (includin Kirby) has had is that the book can be cancelled at any time- even mid story. If the writer doesnt write these stories now, he wont have the chance to. If Black Panther is cancelled tommorow it is unlikly that he will get another ongoing until at least 2010+ or ever again (see Dr Strange, Quasar, Darkhawk, Silver Surfer etc.)

Priest had had a 49 issue run up until that point, a considerable success in today's market. I think an experiment by then was justified.

If a writer of BP always acted in fear of getting cancelled, then they'll always spin their wheels and never accomplish anything. It's a poor way to write any book.




To me a Priest v/s Hudlin debate is a waste of time. Priest been out the game 2 years and still has more experience then a lot of the Marvel young guns combines. It aint fair.

On this I couldn't agree more. I resent the fact that Hudlin has been given so much when Priest wasn't, but it was Marvel who made that call and Hudlin would have been an idiot not to take the opportunities given.

But my issue is not, nor ever has been, that Hudlin isn't Priest. Hudlin, IMO, doesn't just suck by comparison, he just plain sucks for reasons myself and others have stated before. And asmuch as I love his run, I do tire of extolling it's many, many, many virtues to those who tear it down with the idea to make Hudlin look better by comparison.

[RolandJP]

Priest had had a 49 issue run up until that point, a considerable success in today's market. I think an experiment by then was justified.

If a writer of BP always acted in fear of getting cancelled, then they'll always spin their wheels and never accomplish anything. It's a poor way to write any book.



On this I couldn't agree more. I resent the fact that Hudlin has been given so much when Priest wasn't, but it was Marvel who made that call and Hudlin would have been an idiot not to take the opportunities given.

But my issue is not, nor ever has been, that Hudlin isn't Priest. Hudlin, IMO, doesn't just suck by comparison, he just plain sucks for reasons myself and others have stated before. And asmuch as I love his run, I do tire of extolling it's many, many, many virtues to those who tear it down with the idea to make Hudlin look better by comparison.

Debating the worth of writers Preist against Hudlin on message boards is what I call " Black On Black crime!" Like T.O. and McNabb. It does no good, all it does it divide. I like dealing with the present, so howzabout a list of things that could improve the title. suggestions for the writer or what you would like to see in the BP title.

[XPac]

Debating the worth of writers Preist against Hudlin on message boards is what I call " Black On Black crime!" Like T.O. and McNabb. It does no good, all it does it divide. I like dealing with the present, so howzabout a list of things that could improve the title. suggestions for the writer or what you would like to see in the BP title.

For me, what would really improve the book is if Hudlin got the voice of the character a bit better.

Priests BP was cool... he was a guy that sounded like an African King, with a bit of Batman thrown in there. Hudlin's BP just kind of comes off sounding like a guy. The mystique of the character is totally lost (at least to me).

As far as story direction, I think it would be cool if they took a more political slant. Priest book was really cool in that regard, and even Hudlin laid some interesting groundwork during his CW story arc that was never really followed through. I sort of wish it had the same feel I get when I read Brubakers Cap. I sort of wish they'd tone down the superhero vibe just a small notch and play up the fact that the thing that makes BP unique is the fact that he's an African King.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

For me, what would really improve the book is if Hudlin got the voice of the character a bit better.

Priests BP was cool... he was a guy that sounded like an African King, with a bit of Batman thrown in there. Hudlin's BP just kind of comes off sounding like a guy. The mystique of the character is totally lost (at least to me).

As far as story direction, I think it would be cool if they took a more political slant. Priest book was really cool in that regard, and even Hudlin laid some interesting groundwork during his CW story arc that was never really followed through. I sort of wish it had the same feel I get when I read Brubakers Cap. I sort of wish they'd tone down the superhero vibe just a small notch and play up the fact that the thing that makes BP unique is the fact that he's an African King.

Thats why Greg Rucka would be the perfect guy to write a political type book like Black Panther. Where people are trying to take T'Challa's kingdom and there are threats all over.

[bluedmighty]

Well, duh. A character can't stay mysterious for long if you can see what he's thinking

Bats has stayed mysterious and Bad ass for decades.

I don't remember Alfred or Robin having to play that kind of role.




I always got the impression he was shooting down the middle. Avoiding the pitfalls of aiming for only one market. Doesn't make sense to drive away the majority of the reading community, after all.

I

...did you even read the series? Because 90% of it was what you've said it 'wasn't about'.

Panther was one step ahead of everyone, whupping ass in a grand fashion. Ross served as narrator and by in large, just to be wrong about Panther.

99% of the time he was terrified, in awe, or just plain stunned by T'Challa's actions. Ross was, in even parody, hardly a flattering depiction of white readers if one accepts the various arguements (and Ross shouldn't be, given the whole 'out of his element' thing).

I hear you.

It just came across differently to me.




Couple of observations.

1) You skipped over Queen Divine Justice, an African American female who served much of the sahem function as Ross, only a thousands times more capable and actually drove some plots by her own character. Why?

To answer your qustion honetly, I missed the Queen Divine Justice arc.




2) Supporting casts are vital to a good series. The best ones draw out the title character's traits. Without that, the heroes become duller, flatter. Just because it draws a little attention away from the title character doesn't mean it's a bad thing (especially as that attention still reflects on the main character).

I agree.

[bluedmighty]

As far as story direction, I think it would be cool if they took a more political slant. Priest book was really cool in that regard, and even Hudlin laid some interesting groundwork during his CW story arc that was never really followed through. I sort of wish it had the same feel I get when I read Brubakers Cap. I sort of wish they'd tone down the superhero vibe just a small notch and play up the fact that the thing that makes BP unique is the fact that he's an African King.

I think you've just hit lottery.

I think what it all boils down to is:

What Panther do you prefer?

Political Panther or Super Hero Panther

[XPac]

I think you've just hit lottery.

I think what it all boils down to is:

What Panther do you prefer?

Political Panther or Super Hero Panther

Just to clarify my view a bit... I know it's a comic book, so of course he's still gotta be a superhero and all. I just wish Hudlin would explore the non-superhero aspects of him a bit more. Something like Brubakers Cap has a nice balance that I think the BP book could benefit from.

Because really, that's what makes BP different than basically any other hero. He's an African King. ANY hero can rocket off into space to fight zombies (not that I didn't enjoy the zombie stuff, just saying), but there are stories that can ONLY be told with the BP character.

[Sanctus]

Just to clarify my view a bit... I know it's a comic book, so of course he's still gotta be a superhero and all. I just wish Hudlin would explore the non-superhero aspects of him a bit more. Something like Brubakers Cap has a nice balance that I think the BP book could benefit from.

Because really, that's what makes BP different than basically any other hero. He's an African King. ANY hero can rocket off into space to fight zombies (not that I didn't enjoy the zombie stuff, just saying), but there are stories that can ONLY be told with the BP character.

To explore the political of an African King who has lived in the United States for a bit and his married to an African-American woman means to talk on race and geo-politics. I think Hudlin did it quite well in his first arch. He touch on neo-colonialism which always has an undertone of race in it.

Black panther should figure more in Stark's world more and vice versa. Stark is a billionaire that head the largest, best funded spy agency in the world. BP is a King of a the most technologically advanced nation on earth.

Also, Hydra, A.I.M and the Hand should all be trying to infiltrate Wakanda to take advantage of its technology so that they can further their plans to take over the world.

It is cool that the Wakandan people look to BP to defend them, but it is a country. It should have many super heroes. let's see Nezho and a few of the other Wakandan superheroes make appearances. BP should also be concerned with what is going on in Genosha since it is off the continent of Africa and could serve as a breeding ground for terrorist since it is a failed state. It also had a significant mutant population and his wife is a mutant.

[Brian M.]

I think if you keep Panther as a King of his nation I think Political Panther fits. If you take his kingdom away from him and disregard a storyline that involves him getting it back, than Superhero Panther fits.

[drwho]

I was actually surprised in the Priest Panther series to see Vibraxas from Fantastic force actually have some sort of a regular supporting cast role. Who ever thought he would be seen again?

[Sanctus]

I was actually surprised in the Priest Panther series to see Vibraxas from Fantastic force actually have some sort of a regular supporting cast role. Who ever thought he would be seen again?

Wakanda needs a few super hero teams. Vibraxas shoudl definitely be on one of them. I also see Wakanda being a snactuary for displaced mutants since its queen is a mutant.

[Alan2099]

It is cool that the Wakandan people look to BP to defend them, but it is a country. It should have many super heroes. let's see Nezho and a few of the other Wakandan superheroes make appearances.
Personally, I like the idea of Panther having a National Superhero team. Maybe it would just be four or five people, but the idea that that a superhero king has a government ran superhero force just fits. AT the very least, it fits better than the Initiative.

[Monty_Cristo]

i like political panther i guess. i think he needs to be more than a superhero. Priest had it right.

[Loren]

Since this thread still has some life in it, I might as well take the opportunity to mock something that amused me in last month's issue:

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/4641/blap032int12rg8.th.jpg (http://img141.imageshack.us/my.php?image=blap032int12rg8.jpg)

First off, I suppose I should give kudos to Hudlin for at least trying to take advantage of the tech side of BP (a nice change after the magically-blessed armor, the magic sword, and the magic frogs). But his execution here still fails in multiple ways.

- "Wakanda developed technology to defeat firearms centuries ago." Props to 18th century Wakandan scientists. Pity T'Challa couldn't have saved the day with, y'know, something T'CHALLA invented. Instead of bolstering T'Challa's skills, Hudlin just has him borrow the tech. Kinda like how he borrowed the frogs. And the sword.

- It also raises the question of exactly how the gizmo works. Normally I'd be happy to suspend my disbelief (I did for the giant machine in #1, at least to the extent that the issue made any sense of what the machine was doing), but handguns aren't terribly complex devices. There's no electronics to disrupt. It's all mechanics and chemistry. All the guns went "Klik" before they tried to fire them (they aren't cocked in panel 1 or 3), so T'Challa's gizmo must have made the guns do that. Magnets? What could they have done to freeze an uncocked gun?

- One reason my suspension-of-disbelief is interrupted is because we don't see the gizmo. T'Challa just waves his fingers, and the guns freeze. There's no attempt to explain what he did, or how. Apparently, T'Challa just happens to keep his gun-locking gizmo in the fingertips of his suit.

- Given that three pages earlier Hudlin established that the Skrull gangsters have flying cars (which look like Earth cars but presumably operate a wee bit differently), T'Challa's awfully fortunate that Wakandan technology to interrupt Earth guns successfully worked on alien Skrull handguns.

- And, of course, the big combo of all of these: the unabashed 'Deus Ex Machina' nature of the whole scene. To wit:

Human Torch: We're surrounded by Skrull policemen with handguns. Storm and I will...

Black Panther: No, wait. I'll save the day with a special Wakandan gadget that I've never shared or mentioned before, you've never seen or heard of before, and which I had no particular reason to have with me on this mission, but which is perfect for getting out of this exact situation.

Human Torch: Um...I don't see anything. You just did a Jedi hand wave.

Black Panther: It's a very small gadget. I put it in my glove.

Human Torch: Can I see it?

Black Panther: No. Now, let us never speak of this gadget again. Especially not to bring up all the times I could have used such a device, but didn't.

[Jackob]

Since this thread still has some life in it, I might as well take the opportunity to mock something that amused me in last month's issue:

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/4641/blap032int12rg8.th.jpg (http://img141.imageshack.us/my.php?image=blap032int12rg8.jpg)

First off, I suppose I should give kudos to Hudlin for at least trying to take advantage of the tech side of BP (a nice change after the magically-blessed armor, the magic sword, and the magic frogs). But his execution here still fails in multiple ways.

- "Wakanda developed technology to defeat firearms centuries ago." Props to 18th century Wakandan scientists. Pity T'Challa couldn't have saved the day with, y'know, something T'CHALLA invented. Instead of bolstering T'Challa's skills, Hudlin just has him borrow the tech. Kinda like how he borrowed the frogs. And the sword.

- It also raises the question of exactly how the gizmo works. Normally I'd be happy to suspend my disbelief (I did for the giant machine in #1, at least to the extent that the issue made any sense of what the machine was doing), but handguns aren't terribly complex devices. There's no electronics to disrupt. It's all mechanics and chemistry. All the guns went "Klik" before they tried to fire them (they aren't cocked in panel 1 or 3), so T'Challa's gizmo must have made the guns do that. Magnets? What could they have done to freeze an uncocked gun?

- One reason my suspension-of-disbelief is interrupted is because we don't see the gizmo. T'Challa just waves his fingers, and the guns freeze. There's no attempt to explain what he did, or how. Apparently, T'Challa just happens to keep his gun-locking gizmo in the fingertips of his suit.

- Given that three pages earlier Hudlin established that the Skrull gangsters have flying cars (which look like Earth cars but presumably operate a wee bit differently), T'Challa's awfully fortunate that Wakandan technology to interrupt Earth guns successfully worked on alien Skrull handguns.

- And, of course, the big combo of all of these: the unabashed 'Deus Ex Machina' nature of the whole scene. To wit:

Human Torch: We're surrounded by Skrull policemen with handguns. Storm and I will...

Black Panther: No, wait. I'll save the day with a special Wakandan gadget that I've never shared or mentioned before, you've never seen or heard of before, and which I had no particular reason to have with me on this mission, but which is perfect for getting out of this exact situation.

Human Torch: Um...I don't see anything. You just did a Jedi hand wave.

Black Panther: It's a very small gadget. I put it in my glove.

Human Torch: Can I see it?

Black Panther: No. Now, let us never speak of this gadget again. Especially not to bring up all the times I could have used such a device, but didn't.

well the gadget was established in the book before, i think in the first issue.
but it just doesnt make sense. it is one thing if it is a fancy marvel explantion, like pym particales, but this is just, it works dont wory about it.
i dont like that

[The Cool Thatguy]

well the gadget was established in the book before, i think in the first issue.
but it just doesnt make sense. it is one thing if it is a fancy marvel explantion, like pym particales, but this is just, it works dont wory about it.
i dont like that

The problem is that Hudlin's played fast and loose with the technology that Panther has. In the Zombie Arc, Panther used an energy dagger. Though it was a trademark Priest weapon, Panther hadn't used in once before under Hudlin's pen and I'm fairly certain he's not used it since.

A character pulling stuff out of their @$$ is, rightfully, seen by most as bad writing.

[Ty19]

The problem is that Hudlin's played fast and loose with the technology that Panther has. In the Zombie Arc, Panther used an energy dagger. Though it was a trademark Priest weapon, Panther hadn't used in once before under Hudlin's pen and I'm fairly certain he's not used it since.

A character pulling stuff out of their @$$ is, rightfully, seen by most as bad writing.

At first, I might have characterized the energy dagger and gun-disabling scenes as lazy. But now I just think that Hudlin is "incapable" of writing technology based material. I think he gets it, I just don't think he can produce it.

I still just think Priest set the bar too high for most writers to succeed in writing this series competently while still including all of the technology and political drama. I don't think Hudlin can accomplish either with any depth.

[XPac]

At first, I might have characterized the energy dagger and gun-disabling scenes as lazy. But now I just think that Hudlin is "incapable" of writing technology based material. I think he gets it, I just don't think he can produce it.

I still just think Priest set the bar too high for most writers to succeed in writing this series competently while still including all of the technology and political drama. I don't think Hudlin can accomplish either with any depth.

There's no doubt Priest set an incredibly high bar. In that regard, I do think Hudlin had an uphill struggle from the very beginning trying to write a character in Priest shadow.

Though in the same breath, I do think Hudlin is a bit too simplistic at times with BP's plot devices. It's a notch above the Super Friends version of Bat-Man, but still leagues below the coolness Priests gear brought to BP.

[Ty19]

Though in the same breath, I do think Hudlin is a bit too simplistic at times with BP's plot devices. It's a notch above the Super Friends version of Bat-Man, but still leagues below the coolness Priests gear brought to BP.

LMAO!!

If Hudlin's BP is a notch above Superfriends' Batman, would that put him on Peter Parker's intellect level from "Spidey and his Amazing Friends"?

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n5/creatortj/spiderfriends.gif

[Valen]

It's a notch above the Super Friends version of Bat-Man, but still leagues below the coolness Priests gear brought to BP.

I put this story more on the level of the 1960s Batman tv show. BP seems to have the same bottomless utility belt that saved Batman and Robin countless times.

[Sanctus]

The problem is that Hudlin's played fast and loose with the technology that Panther has. In the Zombie Arc, Panther used an energy dagger. Though it was a trademark Priest weapon, Panther hadn't used in once before under Hudlin's pen and I'm fairly certain he's not used it since.

A character pulling stuff out of their @$$ is, rightfully, seen by most as bad writing.

There is the possibility that Hudlin cannot explain his technology.

However, the BP and Wakanda have always been secretive about Wakanda technology so I don't find it out of character or strange that he would tell non-Wakandans that hey, you don't need to know how it work, just that it works.

[The Cool Thatguy]

There is the possibility that Hudlin cannot explain his technology.

However, the BP and Wakanda have always been secretive about Wakanda technology so I don't find it out of character or strange that he would tell non-Wakandans that hey, you don't need to know how it work, just that it works.

The problem is that they need to show Panther having this tech before it becomes absolutely important that he use it to save his butt.

With regards to the energy daggers, Panther hadn't used them in 20 issues beforehand, until he blasts that zombie skull. And correct me if I'm wrong, but he doesn't use the energy daggers anytime afterwards.

The issue isn't just a continuity problem. It's a logic one. Why did Panther whip out the weapon now and not before? Why hasn't he used it since?

At best, it pulls (observant) readers out of the story. At worst, it's the writer violating the basic writing rule of 'Don't pull stuff out of your @$$, have it be public or foreshadow'.

[RolandJP]

Since this thread still has some life in it, I might as well take the opportunity to mock something that amused me in last month's issue:

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/4641/blap032int12rg8.th.jpg (http://img141.imageshack.us/my.php?image=blap032int12rg8.jpg)

First off, I suppose I should give kudos to Hudlin for at least trying to take advantage of the tech side of BP (a nice change after the magically-blessed armor, the magic sword, and the magic frogs). But his execution here still fails in multiple ways.

- "Wakanda developed technology to defeat firearms centuries ago." Props to 18th century Wakandan scientists. Pity T'Challa couldn't have saved the day with, y'know, something T'CHALLA invented. Instead of bolstering T'Challa's skills, Hudlin just has him borrow the tech. Kinda like how he borrowed the frogs. And the sword.

- It also raises the question of exactly how the gizmo works. Normally I'd be happy to suspend my disbelief (I did for the giant machine in #1, at least to the extent that the issue made any sense of what the machine was doing), but handguns aren't terribly complex devices. There's no electronics to disrupt. It's all mechanics and chemistry. All the guns went "Klik" before they tried to fire them (they aren't cocked in panel 1 or 3), so T'Challa's gizmo must have made the guns do that. Magnets? What could they have done to freeze an uncocked gun?

- One reason my suspension-of-disbelief is interrupted is because we don't see the gizmo. T'Challa just waves his fingers, and the guns freeze. There's no attempt to explain what he did, or how. Apparently, T'Challa just happens to keep his gun-locking gizmo in the fingertips of his suit.

- Given that three pages earlier Hudlin established that the Skrull gangsters have flying cars (which look like Earth cars but presumably operate a wee bit differently), T'Challa's awfully fortunate that Wakandan technology to interrupt Earth guns successfully worked on alien Skrull handguns.

- And, of course, the big combo of all of these: the unabashed 'Deus Ex Machina' nature of the whole scene. To wit:

Human Torch: We're surrounded by Skrull policemen with handguns. Storm and I will...

Black Panther: No, wait. I'll save the day with a special Wakandan gadget that I've never shared or mentioned before, you've never seen or heard of before, and which I had no particular reason to have with me on this mission, but which is perfect for getting out of this exact situation.

Human Torch: Um...I don't see anything. You just did a Jedi hand wave.

Black Panther: It's a very small gadget. I put it in my glove.

Human Torch: Can I see it?

Black Panther: No. Now, let us never speak of this gadget again. Especially not to bring up all the times I could have used such a device, but didn't.



Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy
A character pulling stuff out of their @$$ is, rightfully, seen by most as bad writing.Oh like Marvels' other super geniuses have not used the same gadget plot device??
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u102/NoPrize/nullifier.jpg


Though in the same breath, I do think Hudlin is a bit too simplistic at times with BP's plot devices. It's a notch above the Super Friends version of Bat-Man, but still leagues below the coolness Priests gear brought to BP.

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u102/NoPrize/BlackPantherSmoking440.jpg

[The Cool Thatguy]

Though I find it amusing that you've gone back to the freakin' 60s to defend Hudlin, that doesn't work. IIRC, the Watcher sent the Human Torch into G's ship to get a powerful weapon that could drive him off. They didn't just whip it out with no explanation, thus saving the day.

[Dagger]

LOL @ using the Ultimate Nullifier as a defense for his anti-gun jedi wave.

[Sanctus]

LOL @ using the Ultimate Nullifier as a defense for his anti-gun jedi wave.

Or Bishop having a modified Blackbird in the latest issue of X-Factor.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

LOL @ using the Ultimate Nullifier as a defense for his anti-gun jedi wave.

Who knew that T'Challa had been a student of the Silent Bob "Jedi Academy" now ?

[Taskmaster]

I put this story more on the level of the 1960s Batman tv show. BP seems to have the same bottomless utility belt that saved Batman and Robin countless times.


Wow, if Huddlin had Black Panther pull out the Wakandan Anti-Shark Spray and used it to make sharks explode I might actually have to pick up this book again

[RolandJP]

Hudlin is the only writer , to my knowledge crafting a special Panther Annual for black history month. And I think thats cool!

[Grimm]

Objection knownotta.

You are officially out of order.

Mike Cary set her up in Ch. 5

Brubecker f'ed her over in Ch. 6

In FACT,

I just got done reading that bum's enterview in the "Massiah Complex Marvel Spotlight".

And I'll go so far as to say he could care less about the character.

In 6 pages, Brubecker dosen't say her name once.

In SIX pages, no mention.

The spotlight enterviewr brought her up in conversation, and Bru totally doged the question.

He even talked about his Ch. 6, mentioned that he picked up where Carey left off (LIE), and didn't even mention the "A" Team and their postion in Antarctica.

Going so far as to call Storm's team the "Failed" team, and then giving the nod to X-Force as a true Strike team :rolleyes:.

In Bru's Ch. 10. evrybody that Cyke assembled is seen in the book except Darwin ,and, guess who,

STORM



Well, appearantly we'll never know since Brubecker skipped it.

You think Wolverine got it together and saved the day?

Angel displayed some previously unmentioned ability that got everybody sasfely to the jet?

Kurt was some how able to perform multiple jumps before passing out due to the blood loss?

Colossus stould up and said "Who wants what"?

OR,

Is it POSSIBLE, that Storm saved everybody's baccon?

We'll NEVER know.

Speaking of P.I.S.,

Here's looking at you:

Jean Grey and the "Phoenix"

White Queen and the ability to turn into, OMG, a diamond.

Superman and his ability to even FLY let alone travel at FTL speeds

Wonder Woman and her ability to evan FLY, let alone move with super human speed, magic.

What EVER happened to that invisible jet?



This is where I offer you a pass chief.

I'm not exactly the person to get into it with regarding Storm and her power levels.

The justification I demand, is that they quit making Storm job to EVERYBODY.

Getting "Wanked" all the time by writers is a weak statement as in my post above yours you can CLEARLY see we differ on that notion.

In the instance you described, were Storm took on Stardust and the Surfer, BOTH instances fit in with the character's history, earlier established power levels, and representation.

How long have you been reading X-men?

Do you know what she is and absolutely is not capable of?

OR

Is the first time you noticed, or payed attention to the character, when you saw her on the Cartoon or in the Movie?

What you call getting "wanked" I call getting back to business.

Hah just seen this..

So Storm is jobbed out to everybody? I guess if you suffer under the delusion she is herald level that would appear true. You think you've been reading X-Men longer than I have? Could be true, but all that really means is you're older than I am. And I'll be honest, I don't mind that one little bit :D

My first exposure to Storm was during the Savage Land arc, which I read reprinted in Classic X-Men back issues. I instantly felt an attraction to the character. She was bound and helpless.. what better way to find a voluptuous, scantily clad, beautiful black woman!!

In all seriousness, I do love Storm and feel she has always been portrayed as one of the most powerful and versatile X-Men. Not only does she have a strong power set Storm also has mad skills, her fighting ability without powers is impressive as all hell. She has outfought both Wolverine and Cyclops without using her powers! (one occured recently so again another example of not jobbing!)

After re-reading MC parts 5 and 6. I can see where you're coming from. You wanted Storm to put up a hell of a fight and save the day. Well the thing is that is what happened, just not on panel. That does suck, but everyone else got the snot kicked out of them. Storm didn't and that counts for a lot! She isn't officially an X-Man anymore so you should be pleased that she is at least in the series! And Bru brought her back!

I dunno why you bought Super-Man etc into it. In case you didn't notice my favourite character is Ben Grimm, not so much faster than light as having his lights punched out every other issue! You don't wanna be getting into hard knock stories with a Thing fan!!!!!! ;)

[Beamish]

I thought the idea of presenting alien dopplegangers of King and X rather insulting to their memories and their work. Especially coming from a war monging race like the Skrulls. Just as I thought having JFK appear in the recent "lost" Teen Titans special degrading to his memory, especially what happened to him in the story and the twist on real life events (I won't spoil it for anybody).

[Sanctus]

I thought the idea of presenting alien dopplegangers of King and X rather insulting to their memories and their work. Especially coming from a war monging race like the Skrulls. Just as I thought having JFK appear in the recent "lost" Teen Titans special degrading to his memory, especially what happened to him in the story and the twist on real life events (I won't spoil it for anybody).

I thought it was actually a tribute to their memories, in the same way we see King Arthur and Camelot often portrayed. The only way to keep a person's ideas viable and in circulation once they have passed is to continually introduce them to people who might not have encounter them before in a variety of medium. Though Hudlin did not display a Cornell West or bell hooks level of grappling with what both of those leaders stood for, I do not feel he misrepresented any of their core ideals.

I am not sure that Storm has the raw power of a herald, but as they always say, if you only rely on your powers, you will get handled when someone with lateral thinking an strategic skill confronts you. I believe given the conditions of the atmosphere and Storm's previous displays of power in space (such as when the X-Men attacked Magneto's asteroid, she is more than capable of taking out a herald that underestimates earthlings in general and her in particular. Had she owned Silver Surfer so easily, I might have been little skeptical.

I have been really disappointed by Storm's appearances in MC. She is arguably the best leader the X-men have ever had. More current characters joined under her leadership than Scott's and she is a queen. To have her treated with no more respect than Surge or X-23 is an insult to her. Scott should be emotionally confiding in Emma, but discussing strategy with Storm. I will attribute her decision to remain as a testimony to her inner strength and ability to avoid slights that is the real marker of regal leadership as well as to the writers just $%^*ing up.

[Taskmaster]

Hudlin is the only writer , to my knowledge crafting a special Panther Annual for black history month. And I think thats cool!

It would be a lot cooler if they let a competant writer do it instead of just letting Huddlin spew out more garbage from his soapbox

[RolandJP]

Writer-artist Dwayne McDuffie on the 1970s "Black Panther" series:

“ This overlooked and underrated classic is arguably the most tightly written multi-part superhero epic ever. If you can get your hands on it (and where's that trade paperback collection, Marvel?), sit down and read the whole thing. It's damn-near flawless, every issue, every scene, a functional, necessary part of the whole. Okay, now go back and read any individual issue. You'll find seamlessly integrated words and pictures; clearly introduced characters and situations; a concise (sometimes even transparent) recap; beautifully developed character relationships; at least one cool new villain; a stunning action set piece to test our hero's skills and resolve; and a story that is always moving forward towards a definite and satisfying conclusion. That's what we should all be delivering, every single month. Don [McGregor] and company did it in only 17 story pages per issue.

[ANewHope]

I just wanted to say that I've been enjoying the Black Panther series ever since the Civil War. I was lucky enough to come across back issues, and read the Pre-Civil War issues. All the issues where the Black Panther and Storm visit the different Marvel Nations, ranging from Laveteria (Doom), the Moon (Inhumans), and Atlantis (Namor) were down-right awesome (especially the Namor issue).

Although I was skeptical at first, and had no interest in reading Marvel Zombies 2, I ended up really enjoying the Zombie Arc.

And now that the alternate universes hopping arc due to Magic Frog's is coming to a close, I'm quite certain that Hudlin will return to the political turmoil of the Marvel Universe after the Post Civil War.

Black Panther 26, refers to the political turmoil with the US Fleet preparing to attack Wakanda. This is a great set up issue, every page features a different sub-plot, with different characters ranging from BP's sister and Wakanda advisors, to Brother Voodoo, and also sets up the New Fantastic Four for the start of the Zombie arc in BP 27.

With Atlantis being abandoned and the Atlanteans forced to blend in with human civilization and forced to ally with Laveteria. There are so many stories that Hudlin will be able to cover once the Secret Invasion begins. All kinds of alliances will be made to halt US aggression. (The parallels of the current Marvel universe to American aggression in reality is stunning)

You need to give Hudlin props for what he has done. I don't hold the Black Panther series to the same level of high expectations as I do Amazing SPiderman (where there are 4 different creative teams trying to live up to JMS high expectations). So what if T'challa pulls out a random gizmo and there are some loopholes in his story telling. These stories are entertaining, and McDuffie and Hudlin have planned all these events by themselves !!! I love it !!

It makes sense from a marketing perspective to keep the Fantastic Four's involvement in the Black Panther to continue as long as possible.

Like I said earlier, refer to BP issue 26, this book will return to the politics of the Marvel Universe soon enough.

Black Panther has become one of the first comics that I read every month. Perhaps i'm in the minority here, but a year ago, I didn't care about the Black Panther, now I'm a loyal fan eagerly awaiting what's going to happen next.

Hudlin delivers, and has made the Black Panther a major player in the Marvel Universe. I think he's done a great job.

[Crimson]

Hudlin is the only writer , to my knowledge crafting a special Panther Annual for black history month. And I think thats cool!

I don't understand why... it's a marketing technique.

It's the same reason this series launched a few years ago in black history month.

It's not like he's doing it for some sort of charity or anything.

[bluedmighty]

Hah just seen this..
So Storm is jobbed out to everybody? I guess if you suffer under the delusion she is herald level that would appear true. You think you've been reading X-Men longer than I have? Could be true, but all that really means is you're older than I am. And I'll be honest, I don't mind that one little bit

In all fairness,

I'm not a rabid fan.

However, I'm probably one one of her biggest. :)

Surfer was not "owned" by any stretch of the immagination. The incident just gave us a better understanding of the forces under Storm's control.

Stardust was not "owned" either. But it did demonstrate that Storm has fine control over energy, even when it's sentient, and imbued with the power cosmic.

She was also able to contain the essence of Eternity, while Doc Strange and Gravity performed an opperation on Big E.

With stunts like harnesing the power of the gallactic core, and beating other diminsional, elemental, alien beings with their own elements, having a sentinal smack her around after she talks ish is kinda insulting.




My first exposure to Storm was during the Savage Land arc, which I read reprinted in Classic X-Men back issues. I instantly felt an attraction to the character. She was bound and helpless.. what better way to find a voluptuous, scantily clad, beautiful black woman!!

I used to read my Dad's X-men Clasics :D
I liked Rogue in her Savage Land get up.

But as for Storm, I prefer the "Tina Turner/Thuderdome/Whoopass" Storm




In all seriousness, I do love Storm and feel she has always been portrayed as one of the most powerful and versatile X-Men. Not only does she have a strong power set Storm also has mad skills, her fighting ability without powers is impressive as all hell. She has outfought both Wolverine and Cyclops without using her powers! (one occured recently so again another example of not jobbing!)

You know Grimm, that's my problem.

She's got an AWESOME powerset. But how often do we see her realy come with it in a fight?

I was furious about the whole Omega mutant thing. ong story made short, people kept saying "She doesn't need to be Omega she's powerful enough."

However, in Vs. matches she is constantly underestimated and her supporters are then summarily bashed.

My question then becomes: Powerful enough for what?



After re-reading MC parts 5 and 6. I can see where you're coming from. You wanted Storm to put up a hell of a fight and save the day. Well the thing is that is what happened, just not on panel. That does suck, but everyone else got the snot kicked out of them. Storm didn't and that counts for a lot! She isn't officially an X-Man anymore so you should be pleased that she is at least in the series! And Bru brought her back!

I'm in arguments constantly online debating with other posters about the actual combat effectiveness of her abilities.

Messiah Complex Chapter 6 could have helped clear up some of the confusion.




I dunno why you bought Super-Man etc into it. In case you didn't notice my favourite character is Ben Grimm, not so much faster than light as having his lights punched out every other issue! You don't wanna be getting into hard knock stories with a Thing fan!!!!!! ;)

I brought up superman and the like, becuase a lot of people throw the term P.I.S. around when I'm talking about Storm.

Superman's ability to fly was a gift from Hollywood.
The other's fall in similar suit.

Ben Grimm is cool. No problems with the Thing :D

[bluedmighty]

I thought the idea of presenting alien dopplegangers of King and X rather insulting to their memories and their work. Especially coming from a war monging race like the Skrulls. Just as I thought having JFK appear in the recent "lost" Teen Titans special degrading to his memory, especially what happened to him in the story and the twist on real life events (I won't spoil it for anybody).

I thought it was cool BECAUSE they are a war mongering race.

How cool is it that when they decide to calm down and make a change, that they pattern themselves after Mlk and Malcom to do it?

[bluedmighty]

Hudlin is the only writer , to my knowledge crafting a special Panther Annual for black history month. And I think thats cool!

I think it's cool too.

AND we get 2 issues in Feb. :cool: :D :eek:

[RolandJP]

I think it's cool too.

AND we get 2 issues in Feb. :cool:

I know, right :D


I know this isnt a Panther Topic per se, but I love what Robert Kirkman is doing with the Zombies. It dovetails, McDuffs FF and Hudlin's Panther nicely!

http://images.comicbookresources.com/previews/marvelcomics/shipping012308/MARZOMV2004_int-1.jpg



http://images.comicbookresources.com/previews/marvelcomics/shipping012308/MARZOMV2004_int-4.jpg

[ANewHope]

I just wanted to say that I've been enjoying the Black Panther series ever since the Civil War. I was lucky enough to come across back issues, and read the Pre-Civil War issues. All the issues where the Black Panther and Storm visit the different Marvel Nations, ranging from Laveteria (Doom), the Moon (Inhumans), and Atlantis (Namor) were down-right awesome (especially the Namor issue).

Although I was skeptical at first, and had no interest in reading Marvel Zombies 2, I ended up really enjoying the Zombie Arc.

And now that the alternate universes hopping arc due to Magic Frog's is coming to a close, I'm quite certain that Hudlin will return to the political turmoil of the Marvel Universe after the Post Civil War.

Black Panther 26, refers to the political turmoil with the US Fleet preparing to attack Wakanda. This is a great set up issue, every page features a different sub-plot, with different characters ranging from BP's sister and Wakanda advisors, to Brother Voodoo, and also sets up the New Fantastic Four for the start of the Zombie arc in BP 27.

With Atlantis being abandoned and the Atlanteans forced to blend in with human civilization and forced to ally with Laveteria. There are so many stories that Hudlin will be able to cover once the Secret Invasion begins. All kinds of alliances will be made to halt US aggression. (The parallels of the current Marvel universe to American aggression in reality is stunning)

You need to give Hudlin props for what he has done. I don't hold the Black Panther series to the same level of high expectations as I do Amazing SPiderman (where there are 4 different creative teams trying to live up to JMS high expectations). So what if T'challa pulls out a random gizmo and there are some loopholes in his story telling. These stories are entertaining, and McDuffie and Hudlin have planned all these events by themselves !!! I love it !!

It makes sense from a marketing perspective to keep the Fantastic Four's involvement in the Black Panther to continue as long as possible.

Like I said earlier, refer to BP issue 26, this book will return to the politics of the Marvel Universe soon enough.

Black Panther has become one of the first comics that I read every month. Perhaps i'm in the minority here, but a year ago, I didn't care about the Black Panther, now I'm a loyal fan eagerly awaiting what's going to happen next.

Hudlin delivers, and has made the Black Panther a major player in the Marvel Universe. I think he's done a great job.

just posting this again

[Frostbite883]

I know, right :D


I know this isnt a Panther Topic per se, but I love what Robert Kirkman is doing with the Zombies. It dovetails, McDuffs FF and Hudlin's Panther nicely!

http://images.comicbookresources.com/previews/marvelcomics/shipping012308/MARZOMV2004_int-1.jpg



http://images.comicbookresources.com/previews/marvelcomics/shipping012308/MARZOMV2004_int-4.jpg

So then, when does Marvel Zombies#4 come out?

[Daouda]

I just wanted to say that I've been enjoying the Black Panther series ever since the Civil War. I was lucky enough to come across back issues, and read the Pre-Civil War issues. All the issues where the Black Panther and Storm visit the different Marvel Nations, ranging from Laveteria (Doom), the Moon (Inhumans), and Atlantis (Namor) were down-right awesome (especially the Namor issue).

Although I was skeptical at first, and had no interest in reading Marvel Zombies 2, I ended up really enjoying the Zombie Arc.

...

Black Panther has become one of the first comics that I read every month. Perhaps i'm in the minority here, but a year ago, I didn't care about the Black Panther, now I'm a loyal fan eagerly awaiting what's going to happen next.

Hudlin delivers, and has made the Black Panther a major player in the Marvel Universe. I think he's done a great job.

ANewHope, that's just how I feel.:)

Good to see another fan with a positive post.

Remember, all the negative critics on the net, added together, are miniscule compared to the people who buy BP every month.

Excelsior, thanks for the scans!

Like ANewHope I had no interest in the Zombies until I saw them in BP. Now I'm reading them as well. Marvel cross promoted them excellently as they now have another fan where initially there was none.

BlueD, keep fighting the good fight brother.:)


Excelsior!

Daoud

[Expletive Deleted]

So then, when does Marvel Zombies#4 come out?It was scheduled for this Wednesday, last I checked.

[ANewHope]

I just wanted to add that the "alternate universe from magic frog hopping" has made me interested in again, the New Exiles. Even though it's written by Chris Claremont, I'm optimistic about this series as well.

And if you want to read another great alternate universe story arc, read Friendly Neighborhood Spiderman issues 8,9,10.

It's actually quite hard to write a compelling and engaging alternate universe stories.

Just look at how badly Chris Claremont butchered Exiles 90-100 and the Xmen Die by the Sword storyline.

Hudlin has done a great job with the frog hopping arc, and its comparable to the issues in Friendly Neighborhood Spiderman 8-10.

[RolandJP]

You are right A New Hope.

I think Hudlin will make his mark this year--at least I hope he will. Perceptions of BP have changed over the years and the character has become viable--with a level of respect unseen in the past. We need great superhero stories--character growth, conflict, passion, something that inspires. Thats not too much to ask is it??? :p

[Walter Hill]

Like Hudlin or not -- this thread is HUGE. People are talking and that is never a bad thing.

[RolandJP]

Like Hudlin or not -- this thread is HUGE. People are talking and that is never a bad thing.

Im a big fan of yours. I loved the movie "Warriors," and "48 hours" :D

[Walter Hill]

Thank you and what about Southern Comfort?

[RolandJP]

Thank you and what about Southern Comfort?

Doh, how could I have forgotten that. Also props to you for producing the AVP movies. Hopefully, you are on board for a Black Panther movie?? hint hint hint

[bluedmighty]

Like Hudlin or not -- this thread is HUGE. People are talking and that is never a bad thing.


Agreed.

And WOW!!!!!!

AVP was one one of my favorites (bring back Ms. Lathan)

48 hours? "Roxanne" LMAO

Warriors? CLASSIC.

I just wanted to say I like your work :D

[GalactaSurfer]

Like Hudlin or not -- this thread is HUGE. People are talking and that is never a bad thing.

Wow Walter Hill in a BP thread awesome!

Question tho, are you only following the tread or are you also following the comic?

[Kizz]

I think it's cool too.

AND we get 2 issues in Feb. :cool: :D :eek:

For us Panther fans out there? This is NOTHIN but a good thing.

I sat here and read this entire thread from start to finish and i gotta say u guys held up marvelously.

Givin excellent points and counterpoints and debating with LOGIC and reason all the usual Hudlin hate that others dish out no matter how crazy it is.

Big ups to ya'll.

Big ups indeed.