Is Superman boring?

[gwor]

If ya ask me, he isn't <g>.

As a longtime comics reader, I've read lots of Superman tales, from the goofy (the charming Silver Age dude who kept shouting 'Great Krypton' at the drop of a hat), to socially conscious (seventies). I've read about the guy being split in two, switching minds with his younger self, killed by a plot device, and growing a damn fine mullet.

The guy's history has been rebooted and un-rebooted and re-rebooted. I'm not quite sure who the heck is running around in the blue tights these days <g>.

Despite all of the above, I never found the guy boring. Sure, maybe some of the eighties yarns were a bit bland, but they were also comforting in a weird kinda way: I knew Supes would somehow save the day. Without killing anyone, and with a gentle smile.

I never wanted to be able to identify with Supes, which seems to be a common complaint. I always found that his actions spoke louder than words, painting for me a picture of a selfless hero in the truest sense of the word.

So I wonder, do readers find Superman boring?

[Iroquois]

No, no he's not.

On another note, anyone who says that they can't identify with Superman, they're full of it. Powers or no powers, Supes is just a nice guy, who dresses up like an average joe. People's problem isn't that they can't identify or relate, it's the exact opposite; they can identify and relate a little too much.

Unless somebody wants to convince me that every comic book reader is ravaged by guilt, fear and revenge dictated by a psychosis born right after their parents' death at the tender age of 8. No, really.

It's not a relatibility issue, it's a matter of what kind of character and what kind of story a reader finds compelling. That, I can understand. Though personally, I find nothing boring about Superman.

[DC906270-BIL]

its maybe not as interesting to read about somebody who is 'a nice guy', the devil having all the best lines and all that:confused:

[Solaris01]

Awesome post, Gwor,

I am very new to the comics, and know Superman mostly from movies and cartoons, but NO WAY IN HELL is Superman boring, no just no.:evilsmile

I have always found him so inspiring, kind, heroic, bigger than life, and handsome:D that I can't help but being drawn to him. He is like, my greatests fantasy, and the Prince Charming that all girls want. I find him fascinating, when written well, and right behind Jesus in my list of favorite people...because Supes is real, didn't you know?:p

and I can't wait to explore more of the comics to get to know him better, he

[Xero Kaiser]

I liked him in JLU. Other than that, yeah, he's pretty damn dull

[elise]

I find him fascinating, when written well, and right behind Jesus in my list of favorite people...because Supes is real, didn't you know?:p
Of course he is!! :D *I* believe in Superman anyway, hmmph!

I think the problem is that a lot of people (younger people especially) find Supes to be outdated and "lame" nowadays. They compare him to Batman who-- you must admit-- is cooler and more popular in a time when being dark and emo is "in." I'm 20 and everyone I talk to around my age has this thing about Batman being "better" and it drives me crazy. He's NOT better. And even though I'll always love Supes a bit more, he's not better than Batman either. They're just different. And different in a way that compliments each other and balances each other out.

Kind of got off topic there, sorry... but to answer the question, I don't find Superman boring at all. At least not when he's written well.

[Volvic]

These days he's not edgy enough to a lot folks. But I don't find him boring at all. I think he makes a nice alternative to the complete dickery/angst of other 'cooler' heroes.

When he's written well, I think he's very compelling.

[Solaris01]

[B]Elise,

I see what you mean, but I find Bats just ok, I am not really a fan of him, but yeah he is cool. My superhero has always being Superman as far as I remember, he just is, maybe its in my genes? LOL;)

[G. Wayne]

Been reading Superman in some form continuously since Godfall.

Love Supes in animated DCU as well. Toned down just right, imho.

All in all, save for the occasional fight with moon-based insect queens, no, he's not boring. :D

These days, a hero who is NOT angst-ridden or cynical or ultraviolent is a nice change of pace, at least to me anyway.

[marshal99]

It's never boring when you have superman around. ;)

[J. Robb]

An important thing about Superman is he isn't cool. Any attempts to make him "cool" will inevitably end in embarassment (like, say, giving him long hair.) To some people, most notably teenagers, "not cool" equals boring. They want dark and brooding, or claws popping out of hands, or other "cool" stuff like that.

Superman appeals to those who appreciate a true "good guy", no edginess needed. Superman is for the young and the young at heart, not the young who wish they were older. And ironically, that's what makes him truly cool.

Any boredom that comes from his comics is the fault of the creative team, not the character himself.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

When he's written by the vast majority of writers currently working in the comics industry, yes, Superman can be very boring. Dull as dirt.

However, in the right hands, Superman is the very best character in comics.

[David Atkins]

Long hair was not 'cool' or even 'in' at the time they gave it to him.

And some of us liked it. (When less-than-stellar art didn't make it look like a mullet, anyway)

[Bored at 3:00AM]

It's never boring when you have superman around. ;)

Sorry, marshal99, as much as I loved that strip, we can't have it on this board, which leans more towards a PG-13 level of offensiveness. Feel free to re-post it on the Community Board.

[J. Robb]

Long hair was not 'cool' or even 'in' at the time they gave it to him.
I know, in the early 90s everyone was cutting off their long hair. I found it very funny at the time, but it actually seemed kind of fitting that the perpetually "uncool" Superman have long hair then.

[Sean Whitmore]

An important thing about Superman is he isn't cool.

I'd even argue that. Guy slaps the crap out of giant monsters all day long and still has time to visit children's hospitals and answer letters on Christmas. What's not cool about that?


SEAN

[Froggy]

I'd even argue that. Guy slaps the crap out of giant monsters all day long and still has time to visit children's hospitals and answer letters on Christmas. What's not cool about that?


SEAN

seriously! seconded

but he isn't "cool" to some folks cause he's not dark or brooding or he's too powerful, or morally righteous. Same reason(s) ('cept the power part) people dont like capt america. I have a friend who lieks DC heroes but doesnt like supes, green lantern or flash......3 reasons why you think he doesnt like them

[Bored at 3:00AM]

I'd even argue that. Guy slaps the crap out of giant monsters all day long and still has time to visit children's hospitals and answer letters on Christmas. What's not cool about that?

Except for the slapping the crap out of monsters bit--everything.

Heroes who are genuinely nice guys aren't cool, unfortunately, and haven't been since the early 1960s. Unless you're an Anti-Hero (Wolverine), a Hero With a Tortured Past (Batman) or an Everyman Doofus (Spider-Man), you're not going to be considered cool by anyone these days.

The thing about Superman that I think a lot of writers miss when they're trying so desperately to make Superman cool--which only serves to make him look even less cool--is that Superman isn't supposed to be cool. Superman is something more.

He's ****ing Superman. And nobody else can say that.

[BYC]

The other uncool part of Superman is that he plays the straight man. Nobody appreciates the straight man, but things don't work without a straight man.

Another problem is that many people do not believe he has flaws. It's totally ridiculous that people believe, but nonetheless, most of the haters or people who are indifferent claim he is perfect, which is certainly is not.

[zebop]

When he's written by the vast majority of writers currently working in the comics industry, yes, Superman can be very boring. Dull as dirt.

However, in the right hands, Superman is the very best character in comics.

That statement hits the nail on the head. Superman is the quintessential superhero when he's written well. The problem is too many writers feel they need to futz around with his origins or try to give him a contemporary edge.

The best version of Superman I've read in 2007 came by way of Garth Ennis in the JLA/Hitmantwo-parter. He really "got" what makes Superman unique and in way that wasn't boring and respected what has gone before.

Keep Big Blue away from the likes of Judd Winnick and Frank Miller and he'll be fine. :cool:

[Crimson]

I find Suprman boring, but I love Clark Kent. Put Clark in the Kent house for a scene or at the Daily Planet and I love that... but when he puts on the suit there is never any risk involved.

[Simon Garth]

Yep, dull as dishwater. Marginally less boring than Hal Jordan and Barry Allen, but still a monumentally dull character.

Part of the problem is the characterisation: why would the most powerful man on earth want to pretend to be a bumbling oaf of a reporter? Pretend to be someone, to get a private life, but why act like a total doofus?

Part of the problem is the power level: he's so insanely powerful (even in the post-crisis version), that it's difficult to write non-PIS stories where the ending isn't a foregone conclusion

[elise]

Part of the problem is the characterisation: why would the most powerful man on earth want to pretend to be a bumbling oaf of a reporter? Pretend to be someone, to get a private life, but why act like a total doofus?
He acts that way so that people would never even for a moment entertain the thought that he might be Superman. He's around some of the best reporters on a daily basis and as Superman he doesn't wear a mask, so what else does he have? It says something about his humility too.

[Simon Garth]

He acts that way so that people would never even for a moment entertain the thought that he might be Superman. He's around some of the best reporters on a daily basis and as Superman he doesn't wear a mask, so what else does he have? It says something about his humility too.

Being "around the best reporters on a daily basis" doesn't say much for his super brain when he was choosing a career for his private identity!

[elise]

Clark wanted to be a journalist before he decided he was going to be Superman. It was what he wanted to be and he went to school for it, it's not just something he chose to pass time with his secret identity.

Besides, it isn't a bad job for him. He manages to keep his identity a secret, which is the only downside. Other than that, it allows him to be among the first to hear about instances where his help is needed and gives him more flexibility than a 9-5 job would.

[Iroquois]

Part of the problem is the characterisation: why would the most powerful man on earth want to pretend to be a bumbling oaf of a reporter? Pretend to be someone, to get a private life, but why act like a total doofus?


That's one of the most beautiful parts of the character, considering that from the beginning, he was created as an allegory of Nitche's "Ubermensch" (Superman). (IIRC) It's Nitche who mentions at some point while writing about the superman that he hides amongst mere humans, pretending to be one of them.

Superman is still the only comic-book character (out of the ones I know) that fully utilize the concept of the secret identity and use it as integral part of storytelling, instead of an occasional plot device. For everybody else (except Batman, sometimes), it's just a different name.

[Alan2099]

Another problem is that many people do not believe he has flaws. It's totally ridiculous that people believe, but nonetheless, most of the haters or people who are indifferent claim he is perfect, which is certainly is not.
To be fair, quite a few writers write him like he doesn't have flaws either.

[Shellhead]

Superman is so boring that he inspired an entire genre, and lots of people still read his adventures on a monthly basis, nearly 70 years after his creation. He is so boring that when his latest movie got bad reviews, it still did nearly half a billion dollars in global box office. If I was that boring, I would have several dozen paparazzi chasing after me everywhere I went.

[Solaris01]

Guys,

interesting arguments about the coolness factor of Superman. ^^Shellhead, LOVE your post.

I can say that to me his awesome suit and powers are enough to make him COOL in his own right. The red cape makes him look stunning, and when he shoots fire from those eyes, OMG, awesomeness!! hahaha:cool:

GOODNESS is cool to me.

I am just not very interested in dark heroes.:)

[BYC]

Part of the problem is the power level: he's so insanely powerful (even in the post-crisis version), that it's difficult to write non-PIS stories where the ending isn't a foregone conclusion

That doesn't really mean anything. It's not as if we don't know almost all heroes triumph or overcome the villain or conflict. Batman rarely fails. So he lost a Robin, so what? Superman has lost Supergirl. Captain America has lost Bucky. Spider-Man lost Gwen Stacy. The power levels shouldn't matter. The writer should be creative and find new ways to confront Superman with conflict. I think the bigger problem is not power, but age. Superman's age as a character is close to 70 years now. Finding new and original ways to challenge him is more difficult than his power levels, IMO.

[Willminus2]

I think that there is a certain boringness to Superman and at times at other times he is awesome. He's just like every other hero, but here are the things he should and shouldn't be.

What superman should be:

A) The father figure of all heroes. The hero that all young heroes aspire to be and the moral compass of the DC Universe.
B) Older than other heroes. I love the Kingdom come version of superman more than any other. His wisdom and stature make him awesome!
C) Powerful - He should be one of the more powerful heroes of the earth. Yes he should have weaknesses that make him vulnerable, but when Superman shows up on the scene that thought should be, "You guys are F*cked now."
D) A midwestern good guy - He's from Kansas, he should be all M'am and shucks. He's not a big city guy. So he should always have manners and should always be willing to stop get cats out of trees and help old ladies cross the street.

What superman shouldn't be:
A) Young and hip
B) Superintelligent and up to all sorts of gagetry. He should be smart, but he shouldn't be creating all these robots and everything else. He's got enough powers as it is, super intelligence isn't necessary.
C) His friends shouldn't be invulneable. The human aspect of Superman is his supporting cast, this is the danger that lies with Superman is his relationship with humans. Occasionally they should be hurt or killed. That would certainly make him more human and all the more interesting.
D) God - He shouldn't be able to turn back time, or come up with plot device crappiness out of thin air. He should win his fights with bravery, cunning, and sheer power.

So yeah sometimes superman is boring. So is every other hero at times. I think that it's just important to stick to what makes the character good and you can avoid as much boredom as possible.

[bw38]

No, no he's not.

On another note, anyone who says that they can't identify with Superman, they're full of it. Powers or no powers, Supes is just a nice guy, who dresses up like an average joe. People's problem isn't that they can't identify or relate, it's the exact opposite; they can identify and relate a little too much.
Speak for yourself. I live in NYC and there's a lot of crazy things you see just walking out the streets, and I've never seen anyone walk around with underwear over their pants or with a cap and a big red S on his chest (unless it's Halloween). And no, I can't relate to Superman and can't think of anyone else who could possibly relate to a guy who is the comic book version of Jesus. And that's not to knock Supes because I like him but it seems to me that thats what makes him different than others. His struggle is one I feel in which he's trying to identify with humans.

[bw38]

Of course he is!! :D *I* believe in Superman anyway, hmmph!

I think the problem is that a lot of people (younger people especially) find Supes to be outdated and "lame" nowadays. They compare him to Batman who-- you must admit-- is cooler and more popular in a time when being dark and emo is "in." I'm 20 and everyone I talk to around my age has this thing about Batman being "better" and it drives me crazy. He's NOT better. And even though I'll always love Supes a bit more, he's not better than Batman either. They're just different. And different in a way that compliments each other and balances each other out.

Kind of got off topic there, sorry... but to answer the question, I don't find Superman boring at all. At least not when he's written well.

I'm 19 and not into any of this emo stuff some kids like. However Batman is still better than Superman. Why? I find him to be more human than Superman. He's the only major superhero who doesn't have a superpower and he's just a total kickass.

[bw38]

I think that there is a certain boringness to Superman and at times at other times he is awesome. He's just like every other hero, but here are the things he should and shouldn't be.

What superman should be:

A) The father figure of all heroes. The hero that all young heroes aspire to be and the moral compass of the DC Universe.
B) Older than other heroes. I love the Kingdom come version of superman more than any other. His wisdom and stature make him awesome!
C) Powerful - He should be one of the more powerful heroes of the earth. Yes he should have weaknesses that make him vulnerable, but when Superman shows up on the scene that thought should be, "You guys are F*cked now."
D) A midwestern good guy - He's from Kansas, he should be all M'am and shucks. He's not a big city guy. So he should always have manners and should always be willing to stop get cats out of trees and help old ladies cross the street.

What superman shouldn't be:
A) Young and hip
B) Superintelligent and up to all sorts of gagetry. He should be smart, but he shouldn't be creating all these robots and everything else. He's got enough powers as it is, super intelligence isn't necessary.
C) His friends shouldn't be invulneable. The human aspect of Superman is his supporting cast, this is the danger that lies with Superman is his relationship with humans. Occasionally they should be hurt or killed. That would certainly make him more human and all the more interesting.
D) God - He shouldn't be able to turn back time, or come up with plot device crappiness out of thin air. He should win his fights with bravery, cunning, and sheer power.

So yeah sometimes superman is boring. So is every other hero at times. I think that it's just important to stick to what makes the character good and you can avoid as much boredom as possible.

I agree with everything here except point D on what Superman should be. I do not want to read a page or two of Superman helping people save cats or walk the elderly across the street. Maybe if it's a kids (age 3-4) book but not in the regular comics.

[Knight Lancer]

Well, maybe in a panel every now and again just to reinforce his good-guy image. I mean, he's not always fighting off a universal threat. It only seems that way.

Besides, it's nice.

[scratchie]

That doesn't really mean anything. It's not as if we don't know almost all heroes triumph or overcome the villain or conflict. Batman rarely fails. So he lost a Robin, so what? Superman has lost Supergirl. Captain America has lost Bucky. Spider-Man lost Gwen Stacy. The power levels shouldn't matter. The writer should be creative and find new ways to confront Superman with conflict.I agree with this 100%. Every superhero generally faces opponents that are more-or-less in line with his power level, or else the book becomes ridiculous. The opponents always seem overwhelming at first and then the hero figures out a way to defeat them. That basic formula doesn't change much whether the hero's power level is more comparable to Superman or to The Human Fly.

I think the bigger problem is not power, but age. Superman's age as a character is close to 70 years now. Finding new and original ways to challenge him is more difficult than his power levels, IMO.Perhaps it's difficult, but not impossible. I think the recent "Subjekt-17" and "Camelot (Arion)" storylines have both (when they haven't been pre-empted by editorial fiat) presented Supes with entertaining, challenging and original opponents. They're practically the only mainstream DC comics I've actually enjoyed (as opposed to endured) in the last 6-12 months.

[Solaris01]

Just wanted to share that Total Film magazine named Superman one of the best 100 movie characters ever this year. This is a very good and important film magazine by the way, I recommend it. I think he was number 49 or so.

I guess the mainstream considers him interesting. :evilsmile :p

[PatrickG]

I think that there is a certain boringness to Superman and at times at other times he is awesome. He's just like every other hero, but here are the things he should and shouldn't be.

What superman should be:

A) The father figure of all heroes. The hero that all young heroes aspire to be and the moral compass of the DC Universe.
B) Older than other heroes. I love the Kingdom come version of superman more than any other. His wisdom and stature make him awesome!
C) Powerful - He should be one of the more powerful heroes of the earth. Yes he should have weaknesses that make him vulnerable, but when Superman shows up on the scene that thought should be, "You guys are F*cked now."
D) A midwestern good guy - He's from Kansas, he should be all M'am and shucks. He's not a big city guy. So he should always have manners and should always be willing to stop get cats out of trees and help old ladies cross the street.

What superman shouldn't be:
A) Young and hip
B) Superintelligent and up to all sorts of gagetry. He should be smart, but he shouldn't be creating all these robots and everything else. He's got enough powers as it is, super intelligence isn't necessary.
C) His friends shouldn't be invulneable. The human aspect of Superman is his supporting cast, this is the danger that lies with Superman is his relationship with humans. Occasionally they should be hurt or killed. That would certainly make him more human and all the more interesting.
D) God - He shouldn't be able to turn back time, or come up with plot device crappiness out of thin air. He should win his fights with bravery, cunning, and sheer power.

So yeah sometimes superman is boring. So is every other hero at times. I think that it's just important to stick to what makes the character good and you can avoid as much boredom as possible.

Agreed on all points except B. There should be elements of him that aren't quite human, even emotionally or psychologically. The super-robots contrasts nicely with the farm boy.

IMO, he should be a guy we root for but if we ever find him relating too much to us, he should have a setback. And if we relate too much to him, he should do something creepy and awe inspiring that reminds us that he isn't quite like us, even beyond the physical powers, just to creep us out and give us goosebumps.

[Iroquois]

Speak for yourself. I live in NYC and there's a lot of crazy things you see just walking out the streets, and I've never seen anyone walk around with underwear over their pants or with a cap and a big red S on his chest (unless it's Halloween). And no, I can't relate to Superman and can't think of anyone else who could possibly relate to a guy who is the comic book version of Jesus. And that's not to knock Supes because I like him but it seems to me that thats what makes him different than others. His struggle is one I feel in which he's trying to identify with humans.

You've entirely missed my point. I was talking about character psyche. People don't relate to Spider-Man because they can climb walls and they have the proportional strength of the spider. They relate to him, because he has trouble paying the rent and getting lucky regularly. If you can't relate to Superman's nice guy, but can relate to Batman's psycho freak, there's gotta be a problem somewhere.

And oi with the underwear. Batman wears his the same way. Why does he get away with it? Because it's black?

[bw38]

You've entirely missed my point. I was talking about character psyche. People don't relate to Spider-Man because they can climb walls and they have the proportional strength of the spider. They relate to him, because he has trouble paying the rent and getting lucky regularly. If you can't relate to Superman's nice guy, but can relate to Batman's psycho freak, there's gotta be a problem somewhere.

And oi with the underwear. Batman wears his the same way. Why does he get away with it? Because it's black?
I do relate to Batman more than I do with Superman. To me he's the epitome of what every human can do with great determination. Sure he had a lot of money to facilitate a lot of the gadgets and technology he uses but there's still an element that can't be bought and that's determination. He has no superpowers and can do so much because of his determination to be the best and to fight crime. Superman on the other hand doesn't need money or determination because he's Superman. Unless you got that green rock you better be of equal strength to Superman because he's going to knock you out. His training basically consisted of growing up on a farm with good ethics. So he's a nice guy, and what's that supposed to do for me? Peter Parker/Spider-man is a nice guy too, and it's not the reason people like him (he's the everyman like you mentioned). Bruce Wayne/Batman is a pretty nice guy to when one looks at the things he does for society but that's not why people like him. That's all Clark Kent/Superman has going for him, he's just a nice guy. I would like Superman better if he had a match once in a while but that's just not the case. And even though I sound critical of Superman here I do like him (he's just a distant third from Batman and Superman).

As for the underwears, I don't like them on Batman either but at least it isn't as noticeable since he's roaming around in the dark and is dressed in very dark colors. With Superman that belt of his just makes it so visible. (My favorite Batman costume is the one used in Batman Beyond).

[elise]

Supes is way more than muscles and a "nice guy." If that's all you think he is, then you're wrong and either need to read more of him in general or read more of the right things...

[Deadpooligan]

To me, Superman's not boring so much as he is bland in regular continuity.

Just look at him in any Elseworlds story; in Red Son he's phenomenally more interesting as a communist nigh-omnipresent dictator than he is (normally) a patriotic mundane do-gooder.

I just think that nothing really good comes out of trying to do something new and edgy with him. His death and return was done fartoo quickly, and I'm sure none of us want to remember the energy-being disaster.

Cyborg Superman and Superman-Prime both eclipse him in terms of interest for me. They've got far better motivations and ongoing character development. Superman is just a bland constant that writers tweak until he becomes interesting as a different character.

Just look at Supreme, and anything else Alan Moore's done with the character.

[bw38]

Supes is way more than muscles and a "nice guy." If that's all you think he is, then you're wrong and either need to read more of him in general or read more of the right things...
well elaborate more on exactly what else there is to superman than just the nice guy. i only talked about that in my post because that's what the other poster mentioned that superman had going for him. being nice should not be the main quality that automatically becomes a characteristic readers can relate to.

[bw38]

To me, Superman's not boring so much as he is bland in regular continuity.

Just look at him in any Elseworlds story; in Red Son he's phenomenally more interesting as a communist nigh-omnipresent dictator than he is (normally) a patriotic mundane do-gooder.

I just think that nothing really good comes out of trying to do something new and edgy with him. His death and return was done fartoo quickly, and I'm sure none of us want to remember the energy-being disaster.

Cyborg Superman and Superman-Prime both eclipse him in terms of interest for me. They've got far better motivations and ongoing character development. Superman is just a bland constant that writers tweak until he becomes interesting as a different character.

Just look at Supreme, and anything else Alan Moore's done with the character.
Cyborg Superman is awesome. So twisted its scary.

[Deadpooligan]

Cyborg Superman is awesome. So twisted its scary.

I know! What's even greater is that his origin is an extremely warped version of the Fantastic Four intertwined with a pure hatred of Superman.

And to this day I can't believe he made the supermullet work when he was running around as The Cyborg in stuff like Superman/Doomsday: Hunter/Prey. Yeah, he had a quarter of an organic looking face, but damn if his quarter of a head of hair didn't look cool.

He's becoming less and less human now though, especially since he keeps getting nuked. Eventually we'll have to call him Android Superman when he runs out of organic bits.

[Solaris01]

bw38,

If you think that fighting powerful beings is all what Superman is all about, well, I guess you don't get the character.

Yes Superman is a nice guy and tries to do the right thing, but he could easily rule the Earth, you know. That's powerful.

He often struggles when he can't be in two places at the same time to save the people. He must feel kinda guilty sometimes.

Plus he can hear everything (more of less, hehe). It must be stressful.

and he is the last of his race.

[Sean Whitmore]

Unless you got that green rock you better be of equal strength to Superman because he's going to knock you out.

How is that different than Batman? (Or any super hero, for that matter)

Unless you're one of the upper-tier martial artists on the planet, Batman's going to kick your ass ten seconds after locating your hideout. And even if you are in that 1% of fighters, he's still gonna kick your ass, it's just gonna take a couple more minutes. (Just ask Karate Kid)


SEAN

[Simon Garth]

Just wanted to share that Total Film magazine named Superman one of the best 100 movie characters ever this year. This is a very good and important film magazine by the way, I recommend it. I think he was number 49 or so.

I guess the mainstream considers him interesting. :evilsmile :p

Well, considering that Jack Sparrow beat him by 48 places, I'm not sure that's much of a recommendation

[BYC]

I think very debatable who is more heroic, Superman or Batman.

Batman has no powers, certainly. But also keep in mind that Batman is rarely writen as if he can actually lose. Batman does so many things so well that he might as well be a meta.

Superman does tons of things well as well. However, is it more heroic knowing you can die on the job (like most human heroes), or that you have such power, but you use it to serve as opposed to rule (like Superman). All these millions of inferior being called humans, but yet he chooses to serve.

[Iroquois]

I do relate to Batman more than I do with Superman. To me he's the epitome of what every human can do with great determination.

Which means that you are also the epitome of what every human can do with great determination? Because that's what relate means. Otherwise, you're looking about "idolize".

Superman on the other hand doesn't need money or determination because he's Superman.

No, you're right. No determination. Looking for hope in an f-ed up world for years, without ever turning cynical or losing sight of what you do, is child's play when you have super-powers.

Superman isn't good, because he's an alien. He is because he chooses to. And that's usually something that stems from his human side, not the alien one.

His training basically consisted of growing up on a farm with good ethics. So he's a nice guy, and what's that supposed to do for me? Peter Parker/Spider-man is a nice guy too, and it's not the reason people like him (he's the everyman like you mentioned).

I'm pretty sure if Pete was a jerk, the everyman thing wouldn't stand. Point in hand, Superman -via Clark- is the kind of person you're likely to find living next door. Not Bruce.

I would like Superman better if he had a match once in a while but that's just not the case.

Whereas you expect Batman (or any superhero for that matter) to really die in the end of each issue? Because my experience says that no known superhero ever dies; and if they do it's permanent. Only Marvel pulled that with Cap and it's still very, very recent to generalize it like that.

On another note, it'd be so much more fun to look for character-based stories every now and then; they're so much more fun.

[scratchie]

I do relate to Batman more than I do with Superman. To me he's the epitome of what every human can do with great determination.
Batman's abilities are so far above those of "every human" that he might as well be super-powered. To think that "every human" could do what Batman does with wealth and determination is just foolish.

[scratchie]

I can't relate to Superman and can't think of anyone else who could possibly relate to a guy who is the comic book version of Jesus.It sounds to me like you don't understand Jesus any more than you understand Superman.

[Eumenides]

I do relate to Batman more than I do with Superman.

You relate more to a rich, joyeless, brooding, obsessive maniac who's a dick to his few friends, whom no one likes having around except in a fight because that's all he's good at, who's responsible for children's deaths, and who's incapable of socializing with people in a normal way, than you do to Superman?

;) :D

[Gerry O'Brien]

All signs point to...

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2141/2149700382_ed1cc96f84_o.jpg

[bw38]

bw38,

If you think that fighting powerful beings is all what Superman is all about, well, I guess you don't get the character.

Yes Superman is a nice guy and tries to do the right thing, but he could easily rule the Earth, you know. That's powerful.

He often struggles when he can't be in two places at the same time to save the people. He must feel kinda guilty sometimes.

Plus he can hear everything (more of less, hehe). It must be stressful.

and he is the last of his race.
well that's the thing that always gets me about superman. he has the potential to be so much better. no one ever seems to reach that potential. then again i'll admit i've stopped reading him a while back.

[bw38]

How is that different than Batman? (Or any super hero, for that matter)

Unless you're one of the upper-tier martial artists on the planet, Batman's going to kick your ass ten seconds after locating your hideout. And even if you are in that 1% of fighters, he's still gonna kick your ass, it's just gonna take a couple more minutes. (Just ask Karate Kid)


SEAN
put a green next to superman, batman, or any other superhero and they won't die. sure they can die other ways, but a freaking rock?

[bw38]

I think very debatable who is more heroic, Superman or Batman.

Batman has no powers, certainly. But also keep in mind that Batman is rarely writen as if he can actually lose. Batman does so many things so well that he might as well be a meta.

Superman does tons of things well as well. However, is it more heroic knowing you can die on the job (like most human heroes), or that you have such power, but you use it to serve as opposed to rule (like Superman). All these millions of inferior being called humans, but yet he chooses to serve.
point taken. i just don't look up to that as much, i guess because i feel if any of the other superheroes were given superman's power they would have done the same thing. because again that's what makes them superheroes. they all serve the earth in one way or another. just these other superheroes can die on the job much more easily. that sticks out to me more.

[bw38]

Which means that you are also the epitome of what every human can do with great determination? Because that's what relate means. Otherwise, you're looking about "idolize".
e·pit·o·me: a person or thing that is typical of or possesses to a high degree the features of a whole class: He is the epitome of goodness.
i·dol: an image or other material object representing a deity to which religious worship is addressed.
re·late: to bring into or establish association, connection, or relation

No I don't think Batman is a god. He's nowhere near perfect. If he were he'd probably be more like Superman. Superman on the other hand can do no wrong (sounds like some guy Jesus I've heard of). Better yet, on Earth he has no match.

So yea I still relate to Batman because he's human and has shown the kind of determination he has to clean Gotham City clean. If I idolized him I'd be worshiping him, I don't. By no means would I ever want to waste my nights on a endless battle against crime.


No, you're right. No determination. Looking for hope in an f-ed up world for years, without ever turning cynical or losing sight of what you do, is child's play when you have super-powers.

Superman isn't good, because he's an alien. He is because he chooses to. And that's usually something that stems from his human side, not the alien one.
All other superheroes are good because they chose to be, otherwise they could have used their abilities to serve evil which would then make them super villains. superman is no different in this regard to the rest of his peers.



I'm pretty sure if Pete was a jerk, the everyman thing wouldn't stand. Point in hand, Superman -via Clark- is the kind of person you're likely to find living next door. Not Bruce.
perhaps but the main attraction to peter isn't his 'nice guy' character. it's the luck (or lack thereof) he has. as for finding each of those guys next door, point taken. i'll concede there.


Whereas you expect Batman (or any superhero for that matter) to really die in the end of each issue? Because my experience says that no known superhero ever dies; and if they do it's permanent. Only Marvel pulled that with Cap and it's still very, very recent to generalize it like that.

On another note, it'd be so much more fun to look for character-based stories every now and then; they're so much more fun.
i don't expect any superhero to die (at least the major ones). if they did they'd come back anyways. the point is that the risk of death for guys like Batman or Spiderman is much greater than Superman who is almost indestructible compared to everyone else on Earth. Now if Superman actually had more stories in which the risk of death was greater for him, then I'd be all over that. He needs much better villains in a bad way. Ask the average joe to name at least three Batman or Spiderman villains and they could. For Superman, you have Lex Luthor and that's about it. Personally I'd add in Braniac and perhaps Metallo but I don't think many people would have a clue who those guys were.

[bw38]

Batman's abilities are so far above those of "every human" that he might as well be super-powered. To think that "every human" could do what Batman does with wealth and determination is just foolish.
by no means do i think anyone could do what batman does. of course everything is exaggerated and biased towards the superhero in comics. it's just the concept behind determination. he worked hard to get to where he was and he's gotten what he wants (well he hasn't rid the city of crime but he's in the never ending process). think of what every human could do if they set a goal for themselves to become something. of course not many people do that. there's no determination. and i don't care to hear about the poverty around the world. there's always an option. there's nothing foolish about becoming something you want.

[bw38]

It sounds to me like you don't understand Jesus any more than you understand Superman.
i've studied the bible. i just don't believe in religion; i don't have faith in the super natural. but that's going off topic. i understand the reasons jesus did what he did. as a human, with the things he did, the risk of getting killed was much greater. needless to say that's what happened, but he did it to save everyone. superman well let's just say the risk of getting killed by anyone on earth is not something he has to be worrying about.

You relate more to a rich, joyeless, brooding, obsessive maniac who's a dick to his few friends, whom no one likes having around except in a fight because that's all he's good at, who's responsible for children's deaths, and who's incapable of socializing with people in a normal way, than you do to Superman?

;) :D
well when you put it that way of course :P actually i've been known to do some of those things (being a dick for no reason, sometimes incapable of socializing normally) to some of my friends for no reason.

[Sean Whitmore]

put a green next to superman, batman, or any other superhero and they won't die. sure they can die other ways, but a freaking rock?

Now I'm not understanding your complaint. Do you dislike that a green rock is the only thing that can beat Superman, or do you dislike that Superman can be beaten by a green rock?


SEAN

[bw38]

Now I'm not understanding your complaint. Do you dislike that a green rock is the only thing that can beat Superman, or do you dislike that Superman can be beaten by a green rock?


SEAN
i dislike that superman can be beaten by a green rock. maybe it's the irony that i dislike. someone so strong, so indestructible, almost invulnerable, and yet a green rock can easily weaken him, almost kill him if enough of it is around him. luckily it's not his only weakness.

btw cool avatar.

[Brian M.]

I hate Superman.

Is there really anything he can't do?

Super speed: Check
Super hearing: Check
Super strenght: Check
Cold Freeze Breath: Check
Laser/Heat Vision: Check
Flying: Check
Invulnerable (except to green crackrocks): Check
14'' inch !@#$: Check
Ultimate Lover: Check
Good Guy: Check

I'm seriously...it's the imperfections that make characters interesting. Give Superman ADD, I wanna see him flying along getting ready to save someone and them stop to look at the pretty flowers.

Maybe then, maybe then I'll pick up Superman.

[Iroquois]

All other superheroes are good because they chose to be, otherwise they could have used their abilities to serve evil which would then make them super villains. superman is no different in this regard to the rest of his peers.

Thanks for stressing my point. If he's no different in motivation, he's no less relatable.

] the point is that the risk of death for guys like Batman or Spiderman is much greater than Superman

How is the risk greater? It's a writer, not a bullet, that kills a fictional character. If you already know that characters -and especially company powerhouses- can't die, what difference does it make if they can get the flu?

BTW, the irony in the original green Kryptonite is double. Not only is it just a little rock that kills a demi-god, it's also the only part of his home, when he leads a life feeling like a stranger, craving to fit in. It's lame when it becomes an overused plot device, but its significance to the mythos is intriguing nonetheless.

Invulnerable (except to green crackrocks): Check

Gross misconception. He's not invulnerable, he's impervious to things that harm humans. That's why he's called Super-Man, not Super-God. I'm pretty sure Darkseid can punch a hole through his skull.

[hYPE]

I hate Superman.

Is there really anything he can't do?

Super speed: Check
Super hearing: Check
Super strenght: Check
Cold Freeze Breath: Check
Laser/Heat Vision: Check
Flying: Check
Invulnerable (except to green crackrocks): Check
14'' inch !@#$: Check
Ultimate Lover: Check
Good Guy: Check

I'm seriously...it's the imperfections that make characters interesting. Give Superman ADD, I wanna see him flying along getting ready to save someone and them stop to look at the pretty flowers.

Maybe then, maybe then I'll pick up Superman.

That is good! I chuckled reading this!

[bw38]

No, you're right. No determination. Looking for hope in an f-ed up world for years, without ever turning cynical or losing sight of what you do, is child's play when you have super-powers.

Superman isn't good, because he's an alien. He is because he chooses to. And that's usually something that stems from his human side, not the alien one.


All other superheroes are good because they chose to be, otherwise they could have used their abilities to serve evil which would then make them super villains. superman is no different in this regard to the rest of his peers.


Thanks for stressing my point. If he's no different in motivation, he's no less relatable.

Maybe I should I made my post a bit clearer. Personality wise just about all superheroes possess the same characteristics, but they possess a lot more characteristics that make them interesting to read about. All these things Superman has which keep getting mentioned, him being all for good, being nice, etc. are qualities we find in just about all major super heroes. that is not the main reason we like these other superheroes. in fact it should be expected that these superheroes possess these qualities from the beginning otherwise they wouldn't be much of a superhero. to be distinguishable personality-wise a superhero needs something else that makes him interesting. i don't think superman has that. he's pretty bland. what is there to distinguish him from these other major superheroes personality wise? perhaps if his struggles were much bigger and his villains of equal strength then we could start talking. (and please don't mention that he's an alien trying to be a human, because when it comes down to it just about all superheroes are aliens/mutants of some sort because they possess these special/super powers regular humans don't. batman doesn't but then again he's the goddamn batman.)

[gwor]

to be distinguishable personality-wise a superhero needs something else that makes him interesting.

It seems that many comic book readers don't find characters interesting unless they're 'flawed' in some way. When a fictional character displays 'human' character traits, especially darker ones, it's easier to relate.

Superman gets labelled 'bland', because his motivation was never about revenge, achieving fame, or making a few bucks. At his essence, Supes is a stranger in a strange land, an orphan who chooses to protect his adopted people simply 'cause it's the right thing to do.

Like I originally wrote, his personality may have always been a bit undefined, but I find his selfless actions and obvious love for his friends make him interesting.

perhaps if his struggles were much bigger and his villains of equal strength then we could start talking.

Over the years, creative teams have pumped up his rogues gallery significantly (Doomsday, Imperiex, Conduit etc). If you think about it, his struggles have always been quite profound: juggling a secret ID with a rich personal life; trying to help humanity without crossing the line where humans rely too much on their protector; and sticking to his code of not killing, a difficult and honourable choice.

Supes is definitely not boring, it's the stories that are sometimes lacking creativity and insight.

[princesa]

Is Superman boring? Yesss!!!! And his uniform is terrible. The only Superman I liked was the one in the DCAU. He was good.

[The Shadow]

When written right (Busiek!) Superman is far from boring.

[The Shadow]

I hate Superman.

Is there really anything he can't do?

Super speed: Check
Super hearing: Check
Super strenght: Check
Cold Freeze Breath: Check
Laser/Heat Vision: Check
Flying: Check
Invulnerable (except to green crackrocks): Check
14'' inch !@#$: Check
Ultimate Lover: Check
Good Guy: Check

I'm seriously...it's the imperfections that make characters interesting. Give Superman ADD, I wanna see him flying along getting ready to save someone and them stop to look at the pretty flowers.

Maybe then, maybe then I'll pick up Superman.

Funny stuff.

Question though: how much Superman have you read?

[Chad]

Something that's been missing from every reboot of Superman - and I genuinely don't know if this something I'll need to convince people of or not - is a return to the original Siegel and Shuster conception of the character. The Champion of the Oppressed, the guy his creators lived vicariously through to address the injustices of the world, the man who tore red tape in half to right a wrong as he went after crooked politicians or tore down decrepit slums by hand to expose the horrible living conditions of the poor in downtown Metropolis, hasn't been seen (with the occasional exception usually stemming from a Siegel penned story during the 60's) since the 40s.

There was an issue of either Adventures or Action from about three years ago or so in which a character obviously meant to represent this Superman showed up and did those things. He freed an innocent prisoner who was about to be executed for a crime he didn't commit; he fought police officers who were using excessively violent force on peacefull demonstrators; and he was stopped by the current Superman who told him "This isn't how we do things. There are proceedures we follow, we don't force ourselves on society, we preserve the law and those who enforce it even when we might not agree with it". That issue pretty much summed up the differences between the two characters and why I can't be bothered with the character DC currently calls Superman. I realise that as Superman is to DC what Mickey Mouse is to Disney, he'll not likely be allowed to take a stand on anything of importance any time soon, and I understand that a poster with a Batman icon coming over to the Superman boards and saying something like this may be seen as me trying to incite a flame war, but I really think the answer doesn't lie with what his super powers currently are or the powers of his villians.

[cedardryad]

Hmmm...is Superman boring? To me, it all depends on the story, like it is for any character. Some stories tend to drag on while providing me with little excitement, while others keep my interest the entire time. It's all based on the writer's work.

[ukblueky]

Superman is far from boring.The Hulk..now that is a boring character.

[Knight Lancer]

Spider-Man: Well, I started superheroing because I felt guilty after my uncle died.

Batman: Really? Hm, I had the fortune to know both of my parents until I was 8, when they were shot to death in front of me.

Spider-Man and Batman are really just guilt-tripped into superheroing (not that they'd go into super-villainy or something otherwise)

Superman, otoh, really did choose to be a good guy, that he looked at his powers, and he saw his values and decided that it would be better to alleviate the world's problems rather than to conquer the world with his almost unparalleled might.

I mean, what was the first thing Parker decided to do with his powers? To try to get rich and famous.

Not Clark, no sir-ee.

[J. Robb]

Something that's been missing from every reboot of Superman - and I genuinely don't know if this something I'll need to convince people of or not - is a return to the original Siegel and Shuster conception of the character. The Champion of the Oppressed, the guy his creators lived vicariously through to address the injustices of the world, the man who tore red tape in half to right a wrong as he went after crooked politicians or tore down decrepit slums by hand to expose the horrible living conditions of the poor in downtown Metropolis, hasn't been seen (with the occasional exception usually stemming from a Siegel penned story during the 60's) since the 40s.
I agree that it would be cool to have the social activist aspect of Superman back, but that would run into a couple problems. First, a lot of conservatives would complain (though I consider that a sign you're doing something right), but also it would require a return to the old, less powerful Superman. Because a Superman at his current power levels who wanted to change the world pretty much can, and that would hinder future storytelling.

The safe route is for DC to stick with the ultra-powerful Superman in high adventure stories with only an occasional dip into politics. I'm okay with that, I think it's actually better for an all-ages hero like Superman.

Leave the Golden Age activism to some other, less powerful superhero. Maybe even create a permanent new character based on the Golden Age Superman?

[Darth Joker]

Superman's rarely boring to me, but he is tied down a bit by the constraints of regular DC comic continuity, as well as numerous monthly titles.

Superman is a character based on awe and mystique to a degree, and that can become lost a bit through a lot of saturation and the need to do "a day in the life of Superman" stories.

Anti-heroes, heroes with tortured pasts, and everymen are protagonist types that typically don't lose much from a lot of exposure - this is because the very nature of these characters are to be dark, deep, somewhat conflicted, etc...

They frequently lend themselves to good inner monologuing, and "a day in the life of" stories.

A character like Superman needs to seem a bit larger than life. He's an archetype character (at least to a significant degree), and those types of characters work best on grand stages with theatrical overtones.

[Iroquois]

I agree that it would be cool to have the social activist aspect of Superman back, but that would run into a couple problems. First, a lot of conservatives would complain (though I consider that a sign you're doing something right), but also it would require a return to the old, less powerful Superman. Because a Superman at his current power levels who wanted to change the world pretty much can, and that would hinder future storytelling.


Not necessarily. I, too, think there's a risk involved; if they focus too much on that, they're endangering ignoring the better parts of the mythos that involve aliens and the like and they also have to handle delicately, since they already have Batman running around with this kind of attitude.

However, if they balance it out, it might work. Don't focus on the activism, just make it part of his routine, like catching falling bridges. And don't let him get too involved. Don't have cure cancer or catch terrorists or stop wars, just have him protect the little guy.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

If ya ask me, he isn't <g>.

As a longtime comics reader, I've read lots of Superman tales, from the goofy (the charming Silver Age dude who kept shouting 'Great Krypton' at the drop of a hat), to socially conscious (seventies). I've read about the guy being split in two, switching minds with his younger self, killed by a plot device, and growing a damn fine mullet.

The guy's history has been rebooted and un-rebooted and re-rebooted. I'm not quite sure who the heck is running around in the blue tights these days <g>.

Despite all of the above, I never found the guy boring. Sure, maybe some of the eighties yarns were a bit bland, but they were also comforting in a weird kinda way: I knew Supes would somehow save the day. Without killing anyone, and with a gentle smile.

I never wanted to be able to identify with Supes, which seems to be a common complaint. I always found that his actions spoke louder than words, painting for me a picture of a selfless hero in the truest sense of the word.

So I wonder, do readers find Superman boring?

Superman himself has never been and will never be boring. It all comes down to the stories.

Like you said, some of them are rather bland. And it's not about making SUPERMAN relatable, if that's what people want. It's about making CLARK KENT relatable. And that's where, sometimes, the mistake is. It's not about depowering him (if anything, he should get back his Pre-Crisis levels, or more), or writing stories where he loses his powers every two weeks or once a year, so "he looks more human". Superman/Kal-El is an ALIEN god who saves the entire planet, the galaxy, the universe or whatever, from certain doom. Because that's what he does. A god who tries to be like one of us, but will never be. And like Neil Gaiman said once, "but we love him for trying".

[gwor]

It's not about depowering him (if anything, he should get back his Pre-Crisis levels, or more)

I agree. It's been said that he's difficult to write because of his awesome abilities.

I suggest that it's hard to find creative conflicts for him, requiring original solutions.

Cary Bates wrote a few clunkers in his day (hey, everybody does <g>), but I always liked his intricate plots and wild imagination. His yarns might've been a bit goofy at times, but hey, we're talking comic books, right? <g>

[Libaax]

I have always been looked up the values and what Superman stands for. Note not the american way stuff but the hero stuff.


Only reason i never could get into his comic stories is that, he lacks a real good origin story that would make you a fan and admire his backround. He needed a good Year One story like Bats.

I have tried to read Superman comics of the last years but fighting Lex for 1000nd time isnt interesting to me. His biggest minus is he lacks great villains except for one decent like Lex. He doesnt have the great stories you can make about any villian of his like Batman does with his 100's of classic villains.

I mean when was the last Zod or whoever was in a good Superman story ? Too much Lex hurts Superman in my eyes.

I have liked All Star Superman cause it was a different kind of story with Superman thanks to GM.


So no i dont found Superman boring but i find his world,his villains, his supporting cast etc boring. Thats 50% of a superhero. Batman would even more boring if he didnt his great origin,Gotham,Joker,The Robins,Alfred,the big supporting cast etc

its not about making an anti-hero or a goody good hero like Supes. Its their world that makes or breaks a hero for me.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

It's not about depowering him (if anything, he should get back his Pre-Crisis levels, or more)

I agree. It's been said that he's difficult to write because of his awesome abilities.

I suggest that it's hard to find creative conflicts for him, requiring original solutions.

Cary Bates wrote a few clunkers in his day (hey, everybody does <g>), but I always liked his intricate plots and wild imagination. His yarns might've been a bit goofy at times, but hey, we're talking comic books, right? <g>

Yup. I don't know what's the deal with the craving for "realism" that's been going on for the last few years. Like Alan Moore said once "this is an imaginary story. Aren't they all?"

It should be exactly about what you said: WILD IMAGINATION. I'm not opposed to seeing some real-life conflict, mind you, but to sacrifice the fantastic things in order to add realism is unnecessary.

I want to see Superman rearranging planetary systems again, dammit.

[gwor]

He needed a good Year One story like Bats.

I think that was the intention of Superman: Birthright, although I don't think it was too popular (and has been aparently ret-conned anyhoo).

I still think Supe's Rogues Gallery is just as interesting as Bats; it's up to the writers to make them 'kick-ass' (ugh, I feel my age when I write stuff like that <g>).

For example, Johns turned Sinestro, a purple dude with a sweet mustach into a scary mother-- <g>.

[Libaax]

He needed a good Year One story like Bats.

I think that was the intention of Superman: Birthright, although I don't think it was too popular (and has been aparently ret-conned anyhoo).

I still think Supe's Rogues Gallery is just as interesting as Bats; it's up to the writers to make them 'kick-ass' (ugh, I feel my age when I write stuff like that <g>).

For example, Johns turned Sinestro, a purple dude with a sweet mustach into a scary mother-- <g>.

I have read Birthright, its decent but its not like a great year one story.

Of the course Rogue's Gallery problem is due to the writers not making them kick ass.

Bats have the luck of having Frank Miller,Loeb ,Sale,Alan Moore do classic one shots,minis for his year one type stories. Oniell/Adam's 70's stories was also good for his image. Ra's and Bats 70's stories i love.

I doubt Bats would be as big today without those comics.

[Iroquois]

Yup. I don't know what's the deal with the craving for "realism" that's been going on for the last few years. Like Alan Moore said once "this is an imaginary story. Aren't they all?"

It should be exactly about what you said: WILD IMAGINATION. I'm not opposed to seeing some real-life conflict, mind you, but to sacrifice the fantastic things in order to add realism is unnecessary.

I want to see Superman rearranging planetary systems again, dammit.

I don't. And that's something fans like me and fans like Master won't ever agree with. But that's exactly the thing; it's beside the point. Superman isn't boring when he can move planets and neither is he when he can't. Every story stems from characterization. And especially for Superman, that should double-true.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

He needed a good Year One story like Bats.

I think that was the intention of Superman: Birthright, although I don't think it was too popular (and has been aparently ret-conned anyhoo).

I still think Supe's Rogues Gallery is just as interesting as Bats; it's up to the writers to make them 'kick-ass' (ugh, I feel my age when I write stuff like that <g>).

For example, Johns turned Sinestro, a purple dude with a sweet mustach into a scary mother-- <g>.

Agreed. You have dudes like Mr. Mxyzptlk, Lex Luthor, Brainiac, Doomsday and Darkseid. They just need good writing.

I don't. And that's something fans like me and fans like Master won't ever agree with. But that's exactly the thing; it's beside the point. Superman isn't boring when he can move planets and neither is he when he can't. Every story stems from characterization. And especially for Superman, that should double-true.

Wholeheartedly agree with you on that one. It's up to the writers to write the characters in an interesting way.

[ToxicTeen]

To be honest, I only like the animate Justice League Unlimited Superman. He was much more interesting than the comic versions. :o

[Diablito]

I personally find Superman boring and unrelatable, but I think he has the potential to be interesting.

[eXpiphany]

This is the truth: i tried reading kurt busiek's superman but i stopped after the first few pages cos there was no point reading the fight when i knew superman was going to come good in the end. And this was when i got the issue for free.

I'd say the title really needs a shot in the arm like how the spider-man titles have done it. No arguments needed, just look at the sales differential. Nuff said.

[ZT4]

Superman works better as a reaction. As in, how people react, and how he reacts. He can save someone falling off a building, but what if that person goes back and abuses their families domesticly? He doesnt posesses latent telepathy, he cant tell what the person he saves is thinking.

Then he reads about it later in the paper and he's aghast. He's not that powerful. All this time he's been concerned about fitting in as a human, but as Superman he hasnt made a dent. He should be conflicted at being compared to a religious symbol, he died for his people and came back, so a priest starts up a new televangelist movement in his name. Superman realizes he's not the best hero out there, he should admit to it, he didnt even reach the planet first. He's an overexaggeration, and if he can own up to that, he becomes vulnerable to public opinion.

Lex Luthor is the reaction to Superman, but so many more beleivable villains could be developed if all of them were the same thing, going off in different directions, but beleiving fundimentally what they do is right and what he represents has grounds to fear. The day someone can pull that reaction off, will be when Superman stops being a boy scout, and stars becoming relatable. We see him as a guy raised in Kansas with powers, but THEY dont.

[DayWing]

Okay, in terms of recognition, Superman is 1 of the 3 big icons of Superheroes (the others are Bats and spiderman).

And yet, despite kicking of the first successful and seriously made comic movie and having always had some form of television presence, he is the one strugling the most in terms of being popular.

I am happy to hear that DC wants to do with Superman what they did with GL in 07. But what GL had going for it was a talented writer working on one of his most favorite characters and a an epic background.

Who will be writing the two Superman titles - Geoff (the abovementioned writer) and Busiek (another talented guy). But has their work in Superman been anything to rave about? Sure it is good but I have seen these two guys do so much better. Why are they not repeating the magic here? I think it is because Supes is really not an easy guy to write about in normal DC standards. The whole Clark Kent mild mannered reporter and defender of Metropolis is holding the character down and the writers back. Sure there will be the Braniacs and Parasites and space threats but overall the potential of Superman is being wasted.

In 2008, I would like to see Superman taken towards the what we are seeing in Grant's All Star Superman but even more to the extreme. Return him to pre-crisis power levels. Leave the Daily Planet life or have Clark Kent be a long distant corresponder or have him write novels. The guy does not need money. He can survive on his powers alone in his fotress. Lois can commute there while acting as though she is missing her travelling husband. Chris can stay there and also hang out with the Titans (Nightwing's team) or JSA with Damian and the Flash twins.

From there have a year's worth of EPIC EPIC EPIC stuff. Mongul, Braniac, Zod, aliens and space adventures. Leave the relatable everyday joe stuff to other heroes. Let this book be about fun and interesting stuff but in the SUPER-SCALE. Even the non-heroic stuff should be extraordinary. Superman having a superdog and Kryptonian technology, Chris his son who hangs out with other superheroes, the supporting cast should be mostly superheroes because aside from Nightwing Superman is the one guy everyone trusts right? The only normal thing would be Lois and her connection to Jimmy and Perry.

Nightwing is my favorite but I think it is time that people talked about Superman with the same respect and excitement as when they talk about Batman and some others. Maybe even more. They call him Superman but how Superman can a man be when he is too restricted by his alter ego moments and there are so many other "Supers" doing the same stuff as him. Superman should handle stuff no one else can.

[Iroquois]

This is the truth: i tried reading kurt busiek's superman but i stopped after the first few pages cos there was no point reading the fight when i knew superman was going to come good in the end.

I can't bother to go into that argument again, but out of curiosity, which issue was it?

[Slaughter]

I disagree with Daywing in some points.

I would like to see Superman taking or more down-to-earth issues, but at the same time, still doing cosmic, space stuff and such. Read Superman Confidential. It's very interesting to see how's Superman is much more down to Earth than the gods of New Genesis, and that's what makes the character so good. Remember when Majestic came to Metropolis? Supes suggested him to pull a Clark Kent. I like the whole idea of Clark Kent - He's a Superman, if he's going to save people, he better stay connected to the people that he protects. If he grew distant, he would't be Superman, he would be somekind of all-seeing all-hearing Supergod. Remember King of the World? That kinda thing.

If I wrote Superman, I would't forget the down-to-earth issues but at the same time I would't neglect cosmic stuff. Superman should take on EVERYTHING, from common hoodlums (sure, he can aprehend them, but it's much, much more complex than that) to cosmic tyrants. And he would be a little more active against very dangerous villains like Lex Luthor or Dr. Light, actively searching for them. Remember Infinite Crisis 1#, when the Freedom Fighters were Slaughtered by The Society? When Supes flied off some time after that MASSACRE, I thought he heard what happened and flied off to give these villains the beating of their lifes.

What I liked about Rucka's run is that it was very down-to-earth, character driven and just plain good old fun. Look at the history of his run. During the times of Identity Crisis, Superman fights Ruin, someone who seeks to destroy him by killing his loved ones while testing and testing Superman at the same time. And it'd very good because of the whole down-to-earth and well-constructed storyline. Superman is not just fighting against a villain that wants to conquer the world - he's fighting a PERSONAL fight against Ruin, who schemes against at the same time that the World goes upside down with the prelude and the beginning of the crisis that Mxy warned him about. And it's a tough time for Superman, because EVEN HE can't keep up with so many things - Replikon's death, Lois being shot, Sue Dibny's death, Jean Loring's killings, Ruin atacking his loved ones, OMAC atacks at him and other heroes, Lex Luthor at large, Connor having issues and then, the Crisis hit hard, watchtower blowing and all. And all the while he had to work as Clark Kent and sustain himself and his wife. You could say "Spidey has gone worse stuff than that." I say NO WAY IN HELL. Spider-Man deals with low tier supervillains and muggles and hoodlums and such. Superman deals with high-tier villains, very intelligent scientists, well-estabilished crime syndicates, alien tyrants, friend-killing cyborgs (Hi, Batman! There's nothing friendly about Killer Cyborgs, PLEASE STOP!), law-immune CEOs, inter-universal doppelgangers and stellar conquerors on a daily basis. Someone else would've got mad or like Batman. But not Superman. He's still strong and ready as always. After all, he's Superman, and Hope for a better tomorrow is all that he is about.

[Agentum]

Yes he is quite boring.

Wasn't there even a artist called Boring that drawed him?

Well to me it all depends of the writer, i mean i liked Byrnes reboot, i liked Moores Supreme and his small Supermanstorys.

But few stands out as they can't do so much with the character, so it mostly those elseworld storys that is intresting, i liked Red son too and that Liberty Files or whatever when he is a murderer.

And no Superman is not cool in any way, and is not supposed to be a Wolverine character either.

But he sold a lot of comics even here, but looking at them today, especially the pre-crisis ones the storys are very boring, the backup comics was almost always better(yes our Superman comic had one or maybe 2 Supermanstorys and then a backup DC story of some kind).

I have lots of them, but well, they suck.

I have no intrest in Superman comics of today, i read All-star Superman but thats it.

[gwor]

And no Superman is not cool in any way, and is not supposed to be a Wolverine character either.

Thank Rao he isn't a murderous borderline psycho with memory problems <g>. As a matter of fact, considering what writers have done to the poor Canucklehead, he's quite boring nowadays.

I think Supes works well with blockbuster type stories that celebrate his sci-fi and Silver Age roots. Writers tend to over-emphasize the Silver Age goofiness, or go out of their way to 'wink wink nudge nudge' the reader.

Comparing sales to Spidey is also ironic, since Marvel has had to resort to lame gimmicks to reboot the title back to the seventies <g>.

[Wild Card13]

The other day, my friends and I got into a discussion about the functions of Superman and Captain America in their respective universes. We were working off the notion that Cap and Supes were each other's analogues in their worlds. Though their powersets are quite different, their function is the same: leader and icon. And we eventually came to the conclusion that despite their similarity and the fact that both of them are supposed to be, by nature, a bit "square," Captain America was a deeper and more interesting character. I couldn't possibly replicate the whole conversation (it was quite long), but the cliff notes are basically:

-Steve Rogers is human, and the writers never lose sight of that. Captain America is an icon, just as the Superman mantle is, but with Superman there's a little ambiguity over whether Superman or Clark Kent is the real person here (I've seen strong cases for both sides). Steve Rogers, however, is Captain America. He's the exact same person with or without the mask. The writers of his adventures portray him as a human with his own personal demons and problems, but without edging him into anti-hero territory.

What Superman needs is someone to humanize him in that same way. Others have tried, but no one's really captured it the way someone like Brubaker has with Cap. I know some people prefer Superman to be larger than life, but Cap was larger than life, too. In Miller's legendary "Born Again" story for Daredevil, DD describes Cap as having "a voice that could command a god." That's definitely a trait I'd consider larger than life, and yet we still never lose sight of Cap's humanity.

-Cap's powerset also contributes to him not being boring, and it also plays into his "human" aspect. Since he's the peak of what a human being could be, he's therefore allegorically the best in all of us. What this also means is that he can't just punch his foes into the ground until they go away; he's got to be creative in his solutions because he's not a living Swiss army knife of superpowers.

-You guys covered the Superman power levels thing very well.

So, yeah. The basic ideas we put forth.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

Okay, in terms of recognition, Superman is 1 of the 3 big icons of Superheroes (the others are Bats and spiderman).

And yet, despite kicking of the first successful and seriously made comic movie and having always had some form of television presence, he is the one strugling the most in terms of being popular.

I am happy to hear that DC wants to do with Superman what they did with GL in 07. But what GL had going for it was a talented writer working on one of his most favorite characters and a an epic background.

Who will be writing the two Superman titles - Geoff (the abovementioned writer) and Busiek (another talented guy). But has their work in Superman been anything to rave about? Sure it is good but I have seen these two guys do so much better. Why are they not repeating the magic here? I think it is because Supes is really not an easy guy to write about in normal DC standards. The whole Clark Kent mild mannered reporter and defender of Metropolis is holding the character down and the writers back. Sure there will be the Braniacs and Parasites and space threats but overall the potential of Superman is being wasted.

In 2008, I would like to see Superman taken towards the what we are seeing in Grant's All Star Superman but even more to the extreme. Return him to pre-crisis power levels. Leave the Daily Planet life or have Clark Kent be a long distant corresponder or have him write novels. The guy does not need money. He can survive on his powers alone in his fotress. Lois can commute there while acting as though she is missing her travelling husband. Chris can stay there and also hang out with the Titans (Nightwing's team) or JSA with Damian and the Flash twins.

From there have a year's worth of EPIC EPIC EPIC stuff. Mongul, Braniac, Zod, aliens and space adventures. Leave the relatable everyday joe stuff to other heroes. Let this book be about fun and interesting stuff but in the SUPER-SCALE. Even the non-heroic stuff should be extraordinary. Superman having a superdog and Kryptonian technology, Chris his son who hangs out with other superheroes, the supporting cast should be mostly superheroes because aside from Nightwing Superman is the one guy everyone trusts right? The only normal thing would be Lois and her connection to Jimmy and Perry.

Nightwing is my favorite but I think it is time that people talked about Superman with the same respect and excitement as when they talk about Batman and some others. Maybe even more. They call him Superman but how Superman can a man be when he is too restricted by his alter ego moments and there are so many other "Supers" doing the same stuff as him. Superman should handle stuff no one else can.

Dude, seriously. I almost cried when I read your post. Cuz I agree.

This is SUPERMAN, goddammit. The absolute King of ALL Superheroes (and hey, this is something I don't think even Marvel can argue about). The god, the role model, the guy EVERY OTHER Superhero on Earth looks up to.

Everything in his books should be larger than life stuff, truly epic adventures, saving the universe from impossible threats. The Fortress Of Solitude should be the strangest place on earth again. I like the reference you used: All-Star Superman is the closest thing I've read in recent years to what I want to see in continuity. Hell, I'd love Grant Morrison to write ANY of the main titles (EDIT: And no, I don't mean that I don't like the current runs. I think both are fantastic, although I'm way behind thanx to my comic book provider...).

I loved when I heard what DC wants to do with the Superman books in 2008. That sounds absolutely cool (Geoff/Kurt, if by any chance in the deepest pits of Hell any of you are reading this, please make this something that every single being on this planet remembers for all of eternity. And I mean that in the BEST way possible. And hey, please don't strip his powers from him again, nor make a change a la Superman Blue. I'm trusting you both on this). But damn, the question is: will it meet my expectations? Probably yes, probably not. Because I must say, my expectations are VERY, VERY HIGH. After all, it's Superman's 70th anniversary.

SUPERMAN is not a guy one should relate to. Why? Because HE'S A FREAKIN' GOD, dammit. And on top of that, an ALIEN god. Hell, religious sects should be built in his name. His name should be known well beyond the boundaries of this galaxy/universe/dimension/whatever. The Kryptonian tech should be the most advanced in the universe. And if you want to relate to him, then use his Clark Kent identity. Let's see how a god deals with everyday life, his marriage, his relationships, etc.

Superman should be able to move planets with ease, destroy them with a single punch, blow stars off with his Super-breath or ignite them again with his Heat Vision. He should be able to hold black holes in his hand and resist their pull, travel in time, etc. He should hang out with The Quintessence and/or The New Gods, for Rao's sake.

No, you don't need to relate to Superman. You need to be inspired by him. His very presence should cause awe, hope, inspiration. Like, "oh my freakin' god! I saw SUPERMAN!" or "I can't believe it! Superman himself saved me!". Hell, his presence should cause even fear in the hearts of some people. Why? Read Lex Luthor: Man Of Steel by Azz and you'll know. If this guy wakes up angry, then may god help us all, because not even the Justice League would be able to stop him. Remember what The Spectre said in Kingdom Come? "They finally unleashed a wrath that would cower even Satan himself".

Superman is about believing a man can fly, is about leaving the real world and going into a fantasy world where everything is possible. If Superman can blow off a star with his Super-breath, so what? If he can withstand the explosion of a star without even closing his eyes, so what? Will he be difficult to write because of that? A common misconception in my eyes. There are so many conflicts he should/can face that can not be solved with a move of his pinky finger. This was something I liked from the Day Of Doom mini: Not everyone likes Superman. How does he deal with that? should he interfere in the war in Irak? North/South Korea? How does people see him? how does he see mankind? There are social, political and even religious implications right there that can be explored.

As for the threats, you got Doomsday (if writen properly), Brainiac, Lex Luthor, Bizarro, Sun-eaters, black holes, Imperiex and DARKSEID and who knows what else lurks in the depths of space. Hell, why not create some new cool villains? Why not bring back Cythonna from the Last God Of Krypton one-shot? Damn, why not bring RAO himself? What's up with that? Is there some sort of relationship between them or not? Yes, Superman should be able to do things NO ONE ELSE can.

*Sigh*, enough of a rant for now, I guess. I know some of you don't share my POV, but well, that's how I see it. Anyway, thanx for putting up with me.

[elise]

I'm kind of confused as to what everyone means by "humanize." If you ask me, for not being human, Superman is very humanized. He was raised by human parents, grew up on a farm and now lives in a big city, has a job in the real world, is married to a human, has human friends, experiences human emotions... what else is there, really?

[666MasterOfPuppets]

I disagree with Daywing in some points.

I would like to see Superman taking or more down-to-earth issues, but at the same time, still doing cosmic, space stuff and such. Read Superman Confidential. It's very interesting to see how's Superman is much more down to Earth than the gods of New Genesis, and that's what makes the character so good. Remember when Majestic came to Metropolis? Supes suggested him to pull a Clark Kent. I like the whole idea of Clark Kent - He's a Superman, if he's going to save people, he better stay connected to the people that he protects. If he grew distant, he would't be Superman, he would be somekind of all-seeing all-hearing Supergod. Remember King of the World? That kinda thing.

If I wrote Superman, I would't forget the down-to-earth issues but at the same time I would't neglect cosmic stuff. Superman should take on EVERYTHING, from common hoodlums (sure, he can aprehend them, but it's much, much more complex than that) to cosmic tyrants. And he would be a little more active against very dangerous villains like Lex Luthor or Dr. Light, actively searching for them. Remember Infinite Crisis 1#, when the Freedom Fighters were Slaughtered by The Society? When Supes flied off some time after that MASSACRE, I thought he heard what happened and flied off to give these villains the beating of their lifes.

What I liked about Rucka's run is that it was very down-to-earth, character driven and just plain good old fun. Look at the history of his run. During the times of Identity Crisis, Superman fights Ruin, someone who seeks to destroy him by killing his loved ones while testing and testing Superman at the same time. And it'd very good because of the whole down-to-earth and well-constructed storyline. Superman is not just fighting against a villain that wants to conquer the world - he's fighting a PERSONAL fight against Ruin, who schemes against at the same time that the World goes upside down with the prelude and the beginning of the crisis that Mxy warned him about. And it's a tough time for Superman, because EVEN HE can't keep up with so many things - Replikon's death, Lois being shot, Sue Dibny's death, Jean Loring's killings, Ruin atacking his loved ones, OMAC atacks at him and other heroes, Lex Luthor at large, Connor having issues and then, the Crisis hit hard, watchtower blowing and all. And all the while he had to work as Clark Kent and sustain himself and his wife. You could say "Spidey has gone worse stuff than that." I say NO WAY IN HELL. Spider-Man deals with low tier supervillains and muggles and hoodlums and such. Superman deals with high-tier villains, very intelligent scientists, well-estabilished crime syndicates, alien tyrants, friend-killing cyborgs (Hi, Batman! There's nothing friendly about Killer Cyborgs, PLEASE STOP!), law-immune CEOs, inter-universal doppelgangers and stellar conquerors on a daily basis. Someone else would've got mad or like Batman. But not Superman. He's still strong and ready as always. After all, he's Superman, and Hope for a better tomorrow is all that he is about.

I think I addressed this in my previous post in some way, but you're right. Superman is about helping people, and sure, it would be OK to see him stopping some hoodlums and whatnot, or like that Man Of Steel issue written by Chuck Austen, which dealt with Supes' friendship with a cop. But I wouldn't make that the focus of my stories, if I ever wrote him (hehe, and I don't think I would, given that I SUCK at writing scripts and the like. I could write fanfics and stuff. Speaking of which, I need to get back to my unfinished Superman fanfic...)

[stu-el]

the real question is what do people pass as boring these days because to me the only thing that has changed is the costume but the character himself has stayed the same.

And to answer the Question .
NO i don't think superman is boring .

[Sijo]

Despite being a Supes fan for decades, I have to admit I lately don't find as cool as other heroes. I think it's because of the Status Quo: he always stays more or less the same. Now, I'm not saying that's wrong, but they should experiment with him from time to time, set up plotlines that last for at least a year each, then change back one aspect while again (temporarily) reinventing another.

-They could change his powers. Reduce them to "OK, now he can fight normal Supevillains" while giving him new tricks to explore.

-Give him new villains. Just forget Luthor et al. for while. DC is full of great villains to use. (As an aside, very few Post-Crisis Superman Villians have been very good. Only Maxima struck me as interesting.)

-Have him explore the DC Universe, not be stuck on Metropolis.

-Have him deal realistically with the implications of his power and responsibility. I never swallowed that "Superman would let people die in wars he could stop, to avoid international incidents" for example. Have him challenge that, then deal with the consequences.

-Put some strain in his relationship with Lois. No, not divorce or death!! :evilangry But rather, something like giving him amnesia for a while. Have her work to gain his love over again.

-Do something to make his ID as Clark interesting. Like travel the world solving mysteries. Ditto the Daily Planet crew.

-And perhaps most important of all, LESS OVEREXPOSURE. He's always starred in at least TWO comics at the same time, and sometimes FIVE. Sometimes in titles with little justification, like Superman/Batman (really, would these work together on a regular basis?) ONE Superman title, plus Justice League appearances, should be enough.

Just some ideas. And again, not all need to happen at the same time. Cycle things through.

[Agentum]

Well Captain America is not known in the whole world, a movie with him would never be a real worldwide succes as a Superman movie can be.

In terms of world knowledge only Spider-man can rival Superman(aside from Batman, but he is DC also), then there is X-men i guess, more as a team than individuals with Wolverine in point.

I guess somebody already has pointed that out, but anyway.

Cap.America is like having a Cap.whatevercountry, nothing more, it would mean a lot to that country and not much for others.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

Well Captain America is not known in the whole world, a movie with him would never be a real worldwide succes as a Superman movie can be.

In terms of world knowledge only Spider-man can rival Superman(aside from Batman, but he is DC also), then there is X-men i guess, more as a team than individuals with Wolverine in point.

I guess somebody already has pointed that out, but anyway.

Cap.America is like having a Cap.whatevercountry, nothing more, it would mean a lot to that country and not much for others.

I mostly agree. Captain America, IMO, is a symbol of the patriotism Americans feel towards their country, which is always a good thing. One could also conclude that by extension, Caps represents a set of moral values that are needed in today's world. However, Superman, while representing those values, represents them in a more, say, spectacular way, while also being a Christ-like figure of hope and compassion. Plus, Caps has never had (and I think he will never have) the impact on pop culture Superman has had (and keeps having) all over the globe. In fact, no other Superhero comes even close to Superman in terms of worldwide recognition and impact on pop culture worldwide. No, not even Spidey or Bats.

[stu-el]

That is maybe because some people don't have to see Superman as a hero that represnts a country or a religon because he is a visitor from outer space and the only thing he believes in everthing good. And the character has been made to have an open mind about different culture and to respect them.

which i think is a rare trait in people around the world.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

Yep. He's become a WORLDWIDE icon. He represents the best in all of us, no matter the country we're from, religion, social status, race, gender, etc.

[Libaax]

Storywise i think the problem with the comics is that i have read there is too much Clark and too little Superman. Kal- El has become too much of a human. Way too much of the farmboy. Im talking about his comics that i read and not the team books where you see mostly when he is Superman.

I think its why i enjoy the movies more(not the new one), sure they are cheesy but they are about the alien who fights for humans with Sci fi elements and blockbuster type stories. I agree with gwor about that.

That Superman i would enjoy reading about.

[Lunal]

"As you know, l'm quite keen on comic books. Especially the ones about superheroes. I find the whole mythology surrounding superheroes fascinating. Take my favorite superhero, Superman. Not a great comic book. Not particularly well-drawn. But the mythology... The mythology is not only great, it's unique. Now, a staple of the superhero mythology is, there's the superhero and there's the alter ego. Batman is actually Bruce Wayne, Spider-Man is actually Peter Parker. When that character wakes up in the morning, he's Peter Parker. He has to put on a costume to become Spider-Man. And it is in that characteristic Superman stands alone. Superman didn't become Superman. Superman was born Superman. When Superman wakes up in the morning, he's Superman. His alter ego is Clark Kent. His outfit with the big red "S", that's the blanket he was wrapped in as a baby when the Kents found him. Those are his clothes. What Kent wears - the glasses, the business suit - that's the costume. That's the costume Superman wears to blend in with us."

Thats why I think Superman is not boring. Because he is the character, this powerful alien who can shatter planets practically, but also wants to pretend to be human in order to co-exist and have normal relationships. He's an alien who was adopted by humanity. His biggest 'flaws' are always involving his emotions for the people with whom he has relationships.

In other words, Superman is an inspiration because despite having all this phenomenal power and being an alien, he still wants to be just like us.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

"As you know, l'm quite keen on comic books. Especially the ones about superheroes. I find the whole mythology surrounding superheroes fascinating. Take my favorite superhero, Superman. Not a great comic book. Not particularly well-drawn. But the mythology... The mythology is not only great, it's unique. Now, a staple of the superhero mythology is, there's the superhero and there's the alter ego. Batman is actually Bruce Wayne, Spider-Man is actually Peter Parker. When that character wakes up in the morning, he's Peter Parker. He has to put on a costume to become Spider-Man. And it is in that characteristic Superman stands alone. Superman didn't become Superman. Superman was born Superman. When Superman wakes up in the morning, he's Superman. His alter ego is Clark Kent. His outfit with the big red "S", that's the blanket he was wrapped in as a baby when the Kents found him. Those are his clothes. What Kent wears - the glasses, the business suit - that's the costume. That's the costume Superman wears to blend in with us."

Thats why I think Superman is not boring. Because he is the character, this powerful alien who can shatter planets practically, but also wants to pretend to be human in order to co-exist and have normal relationships. He's an alien who was adopted by humanity. His biggest 'flaws' are always involving his emotions for the people with whom he has relationships.

In other words, Superman is an inspiration because despite having all this phenomenal power and being an alien, he still wants to be just like us.

You quoted the first paragraph, right? May I ask who wrote/said that?

[stealthwise]

You quoted the first paragraph, right? May I ask who wrote/said that?

David Carradine's title character says that in the movie Kill Bill Vol. 2

[666MasterOfPuppets]

COOL. Thanx for the reply.

[DeadXMan]

The character is not boring
his comics are

[Aubergine~!]

IMO, Superman's comics suffer from having him as the main character.

When he shows up in other books, there's just this sense of awe around him. He guest stars in another hero's book, and you can generally tell that the other guy is going "Wow. It's Superman. I'm hanging out with frigging Superman!!!"

That, for me, is what Superman is. This ideal of excellence, of something every superhero should aspire to.

It's hard to get that sense of awe when he's the main character, as you have to portray him outside of doing superheroic deeds. You aren't going to have that much awe for a guy who spent the last 3 pages getting henpecked by his wife.

[Libaax]

David Carradine's title character says that in the movie Kill Bill Vol. 2


Thats a great qoute. Its why Superman is a big icon no matter if his comics are boring or not and even if my personal fav Batman was voted Best Superhero of the Centruy.

If they only wrote more stories showing Supes the way Bill was talking about him.

[Lunal]

Yah its from Kill Bill, and its a quote that really made me see Superman in a different light and made him more interesting. Except for the last part, which I omitted. In the last part Bill says some BS about how the Clark Kent identity is about how Superman sees us all as really inferior. But I disagree with that quite alot, especially in light of how much he loves his adoptive parents.

[lazlo_toth]

The other day, my friends and I got into a discussion about the functions of Superman and Captain America in their respective universes. We were working off the notion that Cap and Supes were each other's analogues in their worlds.

This is 100% gospel truth. Their powers are different, their backgrounds are different, their mindsets are different, but in each case, they are the guy who as soon as he opens his mouth, literally everybody else shuts up and listens. Cap's a little better with the motivational speeches, and he's more of a paternal figure where Superman is everybody's cool older brother, but their status in their respective superhero communities are very similar.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

If they only wrote more stories showing Supes the way Bill was talking about him.

We can only hope...

[gwor]

IMO, Superman's comics suffer from having him as the main character.

Good comment. Maybe if writers would focus on the supporting cast, and have them react to Supes popping up to save the day, the results might be interesting.

Ironic, since Busiek's stories with Samaritan are really effective, you'd think he'd offer a fresh take on Supes. His hands must be tied by editorial...

[Alan2099]

I heard somebody, I forget who, in an interview say that when they started writting Batman, they were given a huge long list of things they were not allowed to do, show, talk about, etc etc. I imagine the same holds true for Superman.

[Libaax]

IMO, Superman's comics suffer from having him as the main character.

Good comment. Maybe if writers would focus on the supporting cast, and have them react to Supes popping up to save the day, the results might be interesting.

Ironic, since Busiek's stories with Samaritan are really effective, you'd think he'd offer a fresh take on Supes. His hands must be tied by editorial...

Does he even have a supporting cast? Thats a huge minus for him. I read him OYL, damn every minute with Jimmy was so cheesy that i wondered why cant supes have a good supporting cast.

Lois i have never seen being interesting in comics i have read with her. She was at her best in the 90's tv show Lois & Clark.

[gwor]

Back in the 70s there were interesting co-workers like Steve Lombard, Cat Grant, and Morgan Edge (have no idea who is still 'around').

It probably wouldn't hurt to introduce new characters, which is kinda what they're doing with Chloe, I suppose.

[Slaughter]

I remember that Supes' had a great supporting cast in the 90s. Jimmy Olsen, Lois Lane, Perry White, Ron Troupe, Bibbo Bibbowsky, Jose Delgado/Gangbuster, Cat Grant and her later son Adam - who was recently referenced in a storyline around the time of Identity Crisis, Zatanna aparently messed with Toyman's mind -, Lucy Lane, John Henry Irons/Steel (His solo title rocked, by the way), Linda Danvers/Matrix Supergirl, Superboy, David Connor/Eradicator, Maggie Sawyer, Dan Turpin (wonder where that old dog is? Lois said something about him during Rucka stay on Adventures of Superman), Mira of the orphanage, Keith who was latter adopted by Perry White and his wife, Colin Thorton/Lord Satanus (who hit the Lexcorp building with a missile just because he could), Sara Olsen (Jimmy's mom) and Dirk Armstrong. I think they should bring these fellows back. Without them, the comics look a little... I dunno, empty.

Also, Jimmy's too young now. Busiek wrote his origins in Superman, and he was a paper boy when Lois and Clark began working in the Planet. What the?

[Libaax]

Back in the 70s there were interesting co-workers like Steve Lombard, Cat Grant, and Morgan Edge (have no idea who is still 'around').

It probably wouldn't hurt to introduce new characters, which is kinda what they're doing with Chloe, I suppose.

Chloe in the comics? I thought she was only in the comic version of Smallville.


When i watched Smallville before, Chloe and Lex was the only ones i liked.

[dupersuper]

Agreed on all points except B. There should be elements of him that aren't quite human, even emotionally or psychologically. The super-robots contrasts nicely with the farm boy.

IMO, he should be a guy we root for but if we ever find him relating too much to us, he should have a setback. And if we relate too much to him, he should do something creepy and awe inspiring that reminds us that he isn't quite like us, even beyond the physical powers, just to creep us out and give us goosebumps.

Heh. JLA#7 "He smiles, and it's that ONE smile he has; the 1 that reminds you he's not really FROM here..."

[gwor]

Chloe in the comics? I thought she was only in the comic version of Smallville.

Looks like she'll be popping up in the mainstream DC Universe.

I find that the different media versions of Supes have become overly convoluted and related. What I mean is, Smallville and the comic are relying too heavily on visual elements and even continuity from the first film.

I think Morrison's take is currently the most interesting, kind of a modern spin on the Silver Age, without being sarcastic or precious.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

Awesome post, Gwor,

I am very new to the comics, and know Superman mostly from movies and cartoons, but NO WAY IN HELL is Superman boring, no just no.:evilsmile

I have always found him so inspiring, kind, heroic, bigger than life, and handsome:D that I can't help but being drawn to him. He is like, my greatests fantasy, and the Prince Charming that all girls want. I find him fascinating, when written well, and right behind Jesus in my list of favorite people...because Supes is real, didn't you know?:p

and I can't wait to explore more of the comics to get to know him better, he

The only character I can think of when I hear the phrase "I wish he were real" is Superman. He's that great, that recognized, that inspiring. Let's admit it people, a few of us at least have looked to the skies, imagining Superman flying right up there, protecting us.

It sounds silly, I know.

And hell, WHO in this planet wouldn't want to have Supes' powers? Or the power of flight at least?

[666MasterOfPuppets]

That doesn't really mean anything. It's not as if we don't know almost all heroes triumph or overcome the villain or conflict. Batman rarely fails. So he lost a Robin, so what? Superman has lost Supergirl. Captain America has lost Bucky. Spider-Man lost Gwen Stacy. The power levels shouldn't matter. The writer should be creative and find new ways to confront Superman with conflict. I think the bigger problem is not power, but age. Superman's age as a character is close to 70 years now. Finding new and original ways to challenge him is more difficult than his power levels, IMO.

Thank you. I keep hearing some guys out there saying "we always know he's gonna win, so he's boring". Wolverine always wins, as far as I know. After all, "he's the best at what he does".

An ultra-powerful Superman shouldn't be in the way of writing great, interesting stories.

[kent007]

I love watching Superman coz of his action and interesting stories.But his costumes are not good.

[gwor]

Superman's costume simply rocks. It's perfect: simple, clean lines, an iconic look. A mix of classic and modern in a snazzy fusion.

If you can forget the fact that his underwear are worn on the outside, of course <g>.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

Speaking of which, have you guys seen these unused Superman's costume designs (http://www.eddieyang.com/portfolio/costume.html)?

[Solaris01]

Superman's costume simply rocks. It's perfect: simple, clean lines, an iconic look. A mix of classic and modern in a snazzy fusion.

If you can forget the fact that his underwear are worn on the outside, of course <g>.

I LOVE THE SUPERMAN COSTUME as is, even the shorts (what's wrong with them?). And I want it to stay that way forever. The classic suit is TOO ICONIC and recognizable, and if they make drastic changes it's going to lose its magic, i