Iron Man #24 *Spoilers*

[jonwes]

Well, this issue showed off what's good and not so good about the main Iron Man title.

On one hand, we have an interesting story that's been building Brubaker-style for a while. I like the cast they've been using, and I like how all the story elements have sort of dovetailed into one another. Here we have a meeting of the Captain Ultra story with the Extremis and Mandarin stories. I'm really digging this story and it'll be interesting to see how it all comes to a head. My only annoyance was that they have him using an old armor again. I understand it, but this has been done QUITE a bit in Iron Man over the years. As much fun as it is to see old armors, it works against Tony to be wearing last year's model.

The bad - the art. it wasn't that the art was bad really. It seemed a bit sketchy and muddy in places but not unappealing. It just didn't feel totally right for Iron Man. I want to see someone who can handle cool tech and humans just as well. The thing is you just never know what you're going to get when you pick up an issue. Where is Iron Man's Steve Epting? I feel like with a really stellar artist who would stick around for a couple years the book could really pop.

[Trey]

Disagree on the art, it is very much in the same vain as Epting or Lark. The fight at the end was very intense, loved the special effects the art team created.

I forgot, what does Kooning have to gain from his alliance with Mandarin?

Oh Yeah, loved the "Iron Grip" attack on that splash page, awesome!!!

[jonwes]

Well, it is sort of in the same vein. As I said I didn't hate it, but I felt like it was a lot sketchier than even last issue. Not sure if it was the same artist? I was referring more to Epting's combination of longevity and skill and not necessarily his style.

That splash was very cool.

[Camron Amaya]

I dissagree completly, I think the art isn't just good, it's great.

lol @ Tony saying he's only been hit ONCE like that before, from the other extremis enhanced maniac....when he just fought the Hulk. And he's fought countless others like that. As if these guys are stronger then that :p

[bulbasteve]

Heck I would say in general that IM is usually better than the Epting stuff when it comes to character expressions and stuff. Then again Bru doesn't exactly do that many closeups, so who knows.

Extremis IS pretty darn strong though, heck the What-If CW had like every single hero trying to bring that original dude down. Of course maybe Tony just meant a particularly extremisy punch :D

Of course you know that Guice has been inking Cap, like in this weeks issue :)

[jonwes]

I dissagree completly, I think the art isn't just good, it's great.

lol @ Tony saying he's only been hit ONCE like that before, from the other extremis enhanced maniac....when he just fought the Hulk. And he's fought countless others like that. As if these guys are stronger then that :p

The comment was a bit funny. Maybe the Extremis punch feels different somehow? I know, I'm reaching.

As for the art, I REALLY liked Guice's art in #23 but this seemed sketchier and rushed and less defined. I just looked at 23 and compared it to 24 and I definitely think there's a difference. But, maybe it's just me. If he could do what he did in #23 every month I'd hope he'd stay a very long time. That being said, I liked the previous artists work as well.

[Omega Alpha]

This book continues to be pretty good. Each issue moves the plot forward while still developing Tony and have him going deeper in his obsession to solve the problems.

[Billage]

yea I don't know what book this guy is reading,but this art is fantastic

this is one of Marvel's best solo titles,if you're not reading it,you're missing out hard

[Dagger]

^^^Well, I'm reading it, and I'm not all that impressed by it. It seems to me that the Knauff's are trying to do what Brubaker's been doing over in Cap, only not as good. Heck, he's written better over in Cap than he is in here. Although, I will admit, these last two issues have been good, I still am awaiting the day when we get a new writer/s on this title because it most definaetly not for me.

[Agent_Torpor]

I absolutely loved this issue. The best book I bought this week, bar none (absolutely blew away X-men #206, and better than Daredevil #103). Brisk story, great art. I was pleased as punch.

Best part was Tony Stark hitting on the midwestern waitress and Dum-Dum calling him out on it. "What can I say, I've got a thing for waitresses."

Classic. Nice of the Knaufs to imbue Tony with a personality, instead of rendering him some hack power-mad tyrant like some lazier writers like to do of late.

And yeah, if you're not in on this arc, you're missing out. It's one of the best books Marvel is putting out right now, and definitely the most underrated. Good stuff.

[mindcrime]

im loving iron man too. liking the story alot, ive seen better art, but its ok. i like the way the story is building. ive been an iron man fan for over 30 yrs, & i can always feel when a big fight with the mandarin is coming. i cant stand it, i want them to start brawling already! great run though. :D

[jackolover]

We saw the reappearance of Sal Kennedy again, in this issue. He was talking gibberish to Tony, and then...poof, he was gone. We have yet to get a full understanding of the ghosts appearing to Tony in this story, and it will be good to learn that it has some significance, because the Knaufs have persisted with this device for some time now.

[g-dawg]

The creative team has been really consistent for me so kudos to them. With Mighty Avengers having a meh ending and Nova not doing anything important as of late, Iron Man is top book this week, with Incredible Herc a close second. I absolutely LOVE how the writers are dropping considerable clues with each issue without giving too much or too little away on the story. It sustains interest for me unlike any of the episodes of Lost when you think they've got something major to work with and then find out it's all just a red herring...and it's been going on for too long!

The art style is getting a bit more muddy with each issue but I hope it doesn't become like that too much before I stop understanding what's happening.

It was pretty cool for me also to see Tony don one of his old, iconic armors. You really don't see any old-school costumes around as iconic as his, and seeing it at work in the present just made me had a geekgasm.

I can't wait to see how this ends, coz I can't stand Mandarin. He's such a villain here and I hope it ends explosively...in a good way of course.

[StoneGold]

Best part was Tony Stark hitting on the midwestern waitress and Dum-Dum calling him out on it. "What can I say, I've got a thing for waitresses."

I must disagree. The best part was Captain F'n Ultra of all people getting a chance to kick a little ass.

[Pyro]

I feel like this story lost some momentum between issues... Or maybe it's impact got lost in the One More Day storm. In any case, I didn't find it as interesting as usual.

[mikekerr3]

Flipped though it, Tony didn't get his rear kicked hard enough for me to buy it.

[XPac]

I feel like this story lost some momentum between issues... Or maybe it's impact got lost in the One More Day storm. In any case, I didn't find it as interesting as usual.

Honestly, I think that's a problem in general for the Iron Man series.

For some reason, it's hard for the book to keep momentum going. I guess that's the potential downside to having these long drawn out stories slowly building up in the background. Brubaker's Captain America book can pull it off, but that's (arguably) the best written book in the market today. Iron Man, at least in my opinion, isn't quite as sucessful at it.

Really, there's no much Iron Man out there is a dozen other books on any given week, the irony is almost that the Iron Man book itself sort of competes with Iron Man's gazillion other guest appearances where he's seemingly doing a lot more in some ways.

[Fatguy]

^^^Well, I'm reading it, and I'm not all that impressed by it. It seems to me that the Knauff's are trying to do what Brubaker's been doing over in Cap, only not as good. Heck, he's written better over in Cap than he is in here. Although, I will admit, these last two issues have been good, I still am awaiting the day when we get a new writer/s on this title because it most definaetly not for me.

I can see the similarities in tone to Bru's Captain America, but I'm really enjoying the Knauff's on the book. I kinda miss the fun, old school super hero playboy tone, but I think the current feel is needed for this era of Iron Man.

Plus, the Knauff's are amongst the few writers who seem to be able to handle Tony as a conflicted, flawed, 3 dimensional hero and not a walking toolbox.

I liked this issue too, Samson was awesome in working over Captain ultra :D And I loved seeing the old suit!

[Billage]

Flipped though it, Tony didn't get his rear kicked hard enough for me to buy it.

Oh well,that's money well wasted on some other crappy comic:D for you.

[Germ-X]

Flipped though it, Tony didn't get his rear kicked hard enough for me to buy it.
At least now you can say Tony grabbed the balls of a seventeen year old with down syndrome.

[Fatguy]

At least now you can say Tony grabbed the balls of a seventeen year old with down syndrome.

LMAO oh god, that's true :o

[mikekerr3]

Oh well,that's money well wasted on some other crappy comic:D for you.

Didn;t spend the money on a crappy comic got the Blue Beetle instead, one I had missed.

[Agent_Torpor]

Honestly, I think that's a problem in general for the Iron Man series.

For some reason, it's hard for the book to keep momentum going. I guess that's the potential downside to having these long drawn out stories slowly building up in the background. Brubaker's Captain America book can pull it off, but that's (arguably) the best written book in the market today. Iron Man, at least in my opinion, isn't quite as sucessful at it.

Really, there's no much Iron Man out there is a dozen other books on any given week, the irony is almost that the Iron Man book itself sort of competes with Iron Man's gazillion other guest appearances where he's seemingly doing a lot more in some ways.

Here's the thing, Tony Stark is portrayed as a one-note tyrant in all those other books. Real boring material. The Knaufs are the only ones giving the guy any gold-level stuff. It was great to see them give a small homage to his womanizing nature, it's been so long since we've seen that "fun" side of the character. And thanks to the Knaufs, we can see that Stark isn't the end all to end all when it comes to the Registration Act - there are ones above him that are really calling the shots.

[XPac]

Here's the thing, Tony Stark is portrayed as a one-note tyrant in all those other books. Real boring material. The Knaufs are the only ones giving the guy any gold-level stuff. It was great to see them give a small homage to his womanizing nature, it's been so long since we've seen that "fun" side of the character. And thanks to the Knaufs, we can see that Stark isn't the end all to end all when it comes to the Registration Act - there are ones above him that are really calling the shots.

I'm not saying that Knaufs isn't writing Stark well... he's doing a fine job. I'm just saying the book itself didn't quite carry the post CW momentum the character had as well as it perhaps should have.

Iron Man is arguably the most central character in the entire MU right now... he's everywhere. Yet his own book doesn't seem to be quite as hot as the character itself is. And honestly I'm not exactly sure I can say why that is the case. I'm not trying to diss the book or the writer... just making sort of an observation.

[Castaway]

just finished reading it and realized how similiar this series is becoming to the maligned hulk books prior to his being shot into space... kind of like a spy adventure and doc samson is along for the ride... again! even the art looks similiar...:confused:

[StoneGold]

just finished reading it and realized how similiar this series is becoming to the maligned hulk books prior to his being shot into space... kind of like a spy adventure and doc samson is along for the ride... again! even the art looks similiar...:confused:

The differences being that there's tons of Iron Man action, Doc is there in his capacity has Tony's shrink, as opposed to a one-eyed surgeon looking for his son, Tony's always done the spy stuff, and the bad guy's been known since before the arc even started.

[jonwes]

Yeah, I don't get the comparison to the Hulk run at all. There's still plenty of Iron Man in the book.

[jonwes]

Oh, one thing that I was confused about on the ending... is Tony implying that HE was the one who put extremis into the young man? That doesn't seem to make sense.

[bulbasteve]

Oh, one thing that I was confused about on the ending... is Tony implying that HE was the one who put extremis into the young man? That doesn't seem to make sense.

How did you get THAT out of the ending? O.o

[jonwes]

Here are the last three panels:

Doc Samson: My God, what kind of a MONSTER would test Extremis on a mentally abused CHILD?

Tony: Only one.

DS: Who?

Tony: C'mon Leonard, you're a shrink. You don't REALLY want me to ANSWER that question do you?

If I did, you'd have to lock me up.


-----

See my confusion? It seems like Tony is saying he'd have to be locked up if he admitted he was the one who did it... of course, he could be saying that he did this sort of testing as well and that he didn't infect this particular child. Still, either way it seems a rather large step. Clearly, this is supposed to have come from Mandarin. Right?

[wulfstone]

Is the Mandarin presumed dead by the authorities? if so that might be what Tony means

[bulbasteve]

Well actually Tony already thinks it's Mandarin even though everyone says he is dead, so I assume Samson knows that.

He is talking about Maya who had her death faked, he doesn't know till now that she is still alive.

[Eclips0]

If Tony really thought that, then why didn't he send his stormtroops to knock it off? He's new to the villain thing be he needs to learn to rely more heavily on his henchemen.

[Brian M.]

If Tony really thought that, then why didn't he send his stormtroops to knock it off? He's new to the villain thing be he needs to learn to rely more heavily on his henchemen.

Except he's not a villian.

[Eclips0]

If it acts like a villain....

[Brian M.]

If it acts like a villain....

IF it acts like a villian

[Deemar325]

I'm hoping Greg Rucka comes to marvel for IM

[DeadXMan]

yes but he lacking the drive of true villiany

Look at the first of what if CW not that's ture villiany

[Eclips0]

You don't think there is such a thing as misguided villainy? Again the Mags example...

[bulbasteve]

Well first of all he didn't link it to Prometheus Gentech yet, did he? So as far as I know he doesn't even know WHO to go after.

Of course even if he finds out ... Kooning is supporting Mandarin, like in the example I posted before, there are people above Tony, he ain't king of the world and he can't just do whatever he wants.

[Eclips0]

But he does have a huge amount of henchmen he can send to investigate leads.

[bulbasteve]

But he does have a huge amount of henchmen he can send to investigate leads.

A. He was forced on leave. B. Dugan is investigating with at least one other trustworthy person. Cause also remember C. Idea #43 is "clean up SHIELD" and it sure ain't done yet as Secret Invasion and Cap has shown.

[Eclips0]

I think #43 isn't is becasue I think we can all agree that Tony royally screwed up CW and everything since. If he is going the villain route and looking to clean up SHEILD the hard way then he needs to do it the hard way and stop playing around.

If I were Stark, by now I would've had Maria Hill shot, I would be looking to make friends with people in power to stabilize my position and I would be secretly traing a force to launch an inserection if needed.

[bulbasteve]

You would have someone SHOT? Geez even Tony wouldn't do that...

Plus Maria Hill is great, you guys need to stop hating on her.

[Eclips0]

You would have someone SHOT? Geez even Tony wouldn't do that...

Plus Maria Hill is great, you guys need to stop hating on her.

Keep in mind, I'm not a hero, If I were in Tony's place thats how I would begin to clean up a corrupt organization and Government.

In Hill's case it's kill of be killed. I would have her taken out because she is an obstacle to cleaning up SHIELD along with any of her supporters. At the moment Tony is half-assing the job and it's failing because of that.

He's got to start thinking more like Nick Fury.

[bulbasteve]

Keep in mind, I'm not a hero, If I were in Tony's place thats how I would begin to clean up a corrupt organization and Government.

In Hill's case it's kill of be killed. I would have her taken out because she is an obstacle to cleaning up SHIELD along with any of her supporters. At the moment Tony is half-assing the job and it's failing because of that.

He's got to start thinking more like Nick Fury.

Maaaan Hill obviously looooooooves Tony, did you see her body language in all the scenes between them? (the book is so good with that sort of stuff). If anything her ratting Tony out is the best case you can use that she is the least corrupt, she was honestly worried about him.

I really don't think Tony is doing a bad job seeing as how they are mostly Skrulls who are impossible to detect and stuff...that has gotta be tough. And he literally just learned about it, I guess before he only had suspicions about the "them" he talked to Ms Marvel about.

[Eclips0]

Maaaan Hill obviously looooooooves Tony, did you see her body language in all the scenes between them? (the book is so good with that sort of stuff). If anything her ratting Tony out is the best case you can use that she is the least corrupt, she was honestly worried about him.

I really don't think Tony is doing a bad job seeing as how they are mostly Skrulls who are impossible to detect and stuff...that has gotta be tough. And he literally just learned about it, I guess before he only had suspicions about the "them" he talked to Ms Marvel about.

If thats how you see her fine, but in any case she is opposed to the heroes anyways and I see her as power grabbing for her own needs, I do not think he can clean up SHILED until she's dead.

[bulbasteve]

If thats how you see her fine, but in any case she is opposed to the heroes anyways and I see her as power grabbing for her own needs, I do not think he can clean up SHILED until she's dead.

All ya need to do is look at the issue before this one where she is shown in the CSA conference room, she isn't wringing her hands and laughing manically but looking pretty darn sad/ashamed.

[mikekerr3]

All ya need to do is look at the issue before this one where she is shown in the CSA conference room, she isn't wringing her hands and laughing manically but looking pretty darn sad/ashamed.

She started the violence in the civil war, she helped send Us soldiers to their death with a suicide bomb. In the What If she help Gyrich commit mass murder and murdered War Machine herself. A bullet to head would be fine. A bullet is justified even for telling Rhino he had no rights.

[DeadXMan]

all those reasons are why I think she a Kree not a Skrull now.

[XPac]

She started the violence in the civil war, she helped send Us soldiers to their death with a suicide bomb. In the What If she help Gyrich commit mass murder and murdered War Machine herself. A bullet to head would be fine. A bullet is justified even for telling Rhino he had no rights.

Yeah. If we're suppossed to take What If: Civil War seriously at all, then she and Gyrich are both monsters.

I don't know if they're Kree, Skrulls, or just insanely evil morons but either way they're a big part of the problem.

[jonwes]

I think #43 isn't is becasue I think we can all agree that Tony royally screwed up CW and everything since. If he is going the villain route and looking to clean up SHEILD the hard way then he needs to do it the hard way and stop playing around.

If I were Stark, by now I would've had Maria Hill shot, I would be looking to make friends with people in power to stabilize my position and I would be secretly traing a force to launch an inserection if needed.

A.) Do you really have to highjack every thread with your one-note commentary? It really isn't interesting anymore. You have the IGN hero thread to comment endlessly on already.

B.) We all DON'T agree, but you'll never see that and that's the problem.

and

C.) Getting back to the actual topic of this thread -
I think I finally get what you guys are saying! Tony is saying that Samson would have to lock him up in the loony bin if he admitted he thought the perpetrator of the crime was a dead person (whether it be Maya or Mandarin.)

Whew. Sorry I was a bit slow on the uptake.

[Arilou]

Yeah. If we're suppossed to take What If: Civil War seriously at all, then she and Gyrich are both monsters.

I don't know if they're Kree, Skrulls, or just insanely evil morons but either way they're a big part of the problem.

Actually, the Watcher pretty much said that Gyrich isn't evil (to be fair, the same has been said about Dormammu)

That said, i doubt Hill is a skrull. Precisley *because* she's such an arsehole. (also, if you recall the CW New Avengers issue starring her.... She kind of makes sense character-wise) She's blatantly unsuited for the kind of high-level command she was given... But then she *knows* that.

[jackolover]

Yeah. If we're suppossed to take What If: Civil War seriously at all, then she and Gyrich are both monsters.

I don't know if they're Kree, Skrulls, or just insanely evil morons but either way they're a big part of the problem.

I took the What If? seriously, and made it an epilogue to the Civil War, as it was a piece of Therapy given by the Watcher for Tony Stark, and I agree, Hill and Gyrich behaved like monsters. I feel they are capable of killing of the metas. But I don't think Hill and Gyrich are part of the Skrull corruption. Hill and Gyrich are a problem for metas in the long term, and if Project Wideawake does start up, Tony Stark knows, now, who to take out, straight away. Thats how serious the What If? is now. Tony knows the danger of Hill and Gyrich.

[Arilou]

I took the What If? seriously, and made it a prologue to the Civil War, as it was a piece of Therapy given by the Watcher for Tony Stark, and I agree, Hill and Gyrich behaved like monsters. I feel they are capable of killing of the metas. But I don't think Hill and Gyrich are part of the Skrull corruption. Hill and Gyrich are a problem for metas in the long term, and if Project Wideawake does start up, Tony Stark knows, now, who to take out, straight away. Thats how serious the What If? is now. Tony knows the danger of Hill and Gyrich.

I don't think Gyrich is EVIL, at least not in the usual way. He is just really, really devoted to the US. He doesen't dislike metas "just because" but if they ever become a threat to what he percieves as the best interests of the US he'll kill them off without a second thought.

He's a fanatic, but not *evil* in the common sense of the word.

Hill, OTOH is just a soldier. She's a decent operational planner but she lacks the "big picture". She suffers badly from the "When all you have is a hammer, the world starts to look like a nail" syndrome. She's a typical example of what happens when you ignore Clausewitz dictum on the primacy of politics.

[Eclips0]

The point is that Hill and Gyrich are obstacles to Tony cleaning up SHILED and the Government and in a situation like he is in now, the only eay to deal with it is to arrange and accident that gets them out of the way. Sometimes politics like this can be the same as dealing with a crime boss, you take them out before they get to you.

[Eclips0]

You would have someone SHOT? Geez even Tony wouldn't do that...

Plus Maria Hill is great, you guys need to stop hating on her.

He had Goliath and a bunch of Atlantiens shot.

[XPac]

Actually, the Watcher pretty much said that Gyrich isn't evil (to be fair, the same has been said about Dormammu)

That said, i doubt Hill is a skrull. Precisley *because* she's such an arsehole. (also, if you recall the CW New Avengers issue starring her.... She kind of makes sense character-wise) She's blatantly unsuited for the kind of high-level command she was given... But then she *knows* that.

Watcher can think what he wants. But personally I think if you're going to use flat out evil means with that much unecessary bloodshed to achieve your goals (especially if those goals are flat out stupid), the good intention excuse stops cutting it. You can apply that to a lot of villains from Magneto to Doom... once you cross a certain line it really doesn't matter.

Gyrich was killing to kill off good men and women who are necessary for the surivival of not only manking but arguably the universe itself because of his own small minded bigoted parania. It was as stupid as it was wrong.

[Eclips0]

Arilou,

I think you may need to re-examine what you think of as evil.

[jackolover]

The point is that Hill and Gyrich are obstacles to Tony cleaning up SHILED and the Government and in a situation like he is in now, the only eay to deal with it is to arrange and accident that gets them out of the way. Sometimes politics like this can be the same as dealing with a crime boss, you take them out before they get to you.

I still don't see your logic. Hill has saved Tonys life, so why would Tony want to kill her, or suspect she is the corruption? The only hazy decision Hill made was attacking a rogue SHIELD brigade and blasting the Avengers in the Savage Land.

Gyrich is a government contrator, so Tony has no power over him. Tony may dislike Gyrichs methods, and Gyrichs obvious hate of metas, but Gyrich has not shown any sign of corrupting SHIELD. Tony has no reason to be concerned with Gyrich, at this stage.

Of coarse, now with the skrull infiltration, Tony can't trust anyone, let alone Hill and Gyrich, so where do you start?

[jackolover]

Watcher can think what he wants. But personally I think if you're going to use flat out evil means with that much unecessary bloodshed to achieve your goals (especially if those goals are flat out stupid), the good intention excuse stops cutting it. You can apply that to a lot of villains from Magneto to Doom... once you cross a certain line it really doesn't matter.

Gyrich was killing to kill off good men and women who are necessary for the surivival of not only manking but arguably the universe itself because of his own small minded bigoted parania. It was as stupid as it was wrong.

I wonder if Tony will start to treat Hill and Gyrich any differently after getting the knowledge from Watcher about their role in a possible Project Wideawake attack on metas. If the What If? is in continuity, Tony should now distance himself from these two, and lay contingency for when PW does come around.

[XPac]

The notion that the heroes would be obsolete is ridiculous.

There are plenty of instances where Gyrich and his clones wouldn't have the skill, intelligence, experience, or expertise to handle. If the government was capable of taking care of itself, it would be. But by and large, it's shown ineffective on almost every level.

They beat the heroes because the heroes weren't REALLY fighting back. Most of the higher end threats that come along from cosmic beings to alien armadas won't have that same flaw.

[Arilou]

Arilou,

I think you may need to re-examine what you think of as evil.

To be honest, I have a hard time labelling people (as opposed to actions) evil.

The notion that the heroes would be obsolete is ridiculous.

Why on earth would it not? Thor himself can contend with basically anything in the universe below Galactus. A hundred, a thousand, a million Thor clones should certainly be able to handle anything the original did, even if they are only 1/3 of his power.

If the government was capable of taking care of itself, it would be.

And that was precisely what it did in this What-If, it executed a plan to deal with all these problems, and Gyrich solved them. No more heroes. No more villains.

[XPac]

To be honest, I have a hard time labelling people (as opposed to actions) evil.



Why on earth would it not? Thor himself can contend with basically anything in the universe below Galactus. A hundred, a thousand, a million Thor clones should certainly be able to handle anything the original did, even if they are only 1/3 of his power.



And that was precisely what it did in this What-If, it executed a plan to deal with all these problems, and Gyrich solved them. No more heroes. No more villains.

Because a Thor Clone isn't Thor. A few dozen Thor clones aren't Thor.

Thor is more than just a guy with Class 100 strength (which is really all a Clor is, plus a fake hammer that can shoot electicity). Thor's got asgardian magic as well as experience, which allows him to handle things even an army of Clors couldn't begin to know how to handle.

It takes more than muscle to do what the heroes do. If you missed that, go back and read a few comics. Again, it's the heroes intelligence, skill, and expertise that time and time again allow them to suceed where the government and their toys constantly fail.

They can deal with SOME things... but there are a lot of things thehy wouldn't even know how to handle. The world flat out needs Reed Richards. It needs Dr. Strange. Hell, a good Dr. Doom or Kang would likely find a way to take over the Dam Clors and use it against the Government. To assume that the heroes or obsolete is just short sighted and naive.

[Eclips0]

To be honest, I have a hard time labelling people (as opposed to actions) evil.



Why on earth would it not? Thor himself can contend with basically anything in the universe below Galactus. A hundred, a thousand, a million Thor clones should certainly be able to handle anything the original did, even if they are only 1/3 of his power.



And that was precisely what it did in this What-If, it executed a plan to deal with all these problems, and Gyrich solved them. No more heroes. No more villains.
And thats why they need to take Gyrich and Hill and the corrupt elements of the government down.

[bulbasteve]

And thats why they need to take Gyrich and Hill and the corrupt elements of the government down.

Becaue they solved the problem of villains and set up a force that could stop pretty much any threat? That is what he said in the post you quoted... you know the exact opposite of reasons to take 'take them down'. Or do you just hate a safe and happy world? :)

[Eclips0]

I hate a world where the government has that kind of power and uses it to murder people. First off killing innocent people (Heroes) and executing others without trial (Villains)

[Vaal]

Becaue they solved the problem of villains and set up a force that could stop pretty much any threat? That is what he said in the post you quoted... you know the exact opposite of reasons to take 'take them down'. Or do you just hate a safe and happy world? :)

Better living through genocide?

[bulbasteve]

Better living through genocide?

Well the new wideawake Tony described was simply forced depowering, which in essence would do the same thing...but with less dying.

[Eclips0]

If anything the events of What If: Civil War show clearly that the MU goverment is corrupt and needs to be taken down.

[Tobias Drake]

If anything the events of What If: Civil War show clearly that the MU goverment is corrupt and needs to be taken down.

If anything, the events of What If: Civil War show that when you corner a rat and it's showing its teeth out of terror, continuing to prod it will result in it biting you.

[Eclips0]

As I said, Tony could work from the inside to destroy the Thor clones and sabotage Project Wideawake.

Besides I think that part was a little nonsensical. I am sure The heroes could put up a better fight then that.

[Tobias Drake]

As I said, Tony could work from the inside to destroy the Thor clones and sabotage Project Wideawake.

Besides I think that part was a little nonsensical. I am sure The heroes could put up a better fight then that.

3 Clors = Thor. 100 Clors = 33 1/3 Thors. 1,000 Clors = Wow, we're screwed.

And you assume Wideawake is the only problem. The problem runs much deeper; some things don't just go away by punching them.

[Eclips0]

As I said Tony could work from the inside to sabotage the clones and sentinels for the heroes.

And once the corrupt government is gone they can reveal all the dirty secrets to the public. And show them just who it was they were supporting.

[Tobias Drake]

As I said Tony could work from the inside to sabotage the clones and sentinels for the heroes.

And once the corrupt government is gone they can reveal all the dirty secrets to the public. And show them just who it was they were supporting.

Why do you assume that the people would accept the conquering metahumans, the same metahumans they're terrified of now, with open arms and love?

[Eclips0]

Because the heroes would reveal the dirty secrets of the govenment to justify it and I think the next time Mags or Kang or Doom attacked the public would switch back over to loving the heroes. People are very fickle by nature.

[Exo]

*sigh* I'd just recently finished reading this (and what great issue it was!), thought I'd check out the boards and to my big suprise what do I find? 79 posts! Finally, with so many replies the knaufs run must be geting the recognition it deserves. But to my disappointment it's yet another What will it take to restore trust and friendship in the MU? (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=198664), Iron Man: IGN'S Hero of the Year! (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=202746) Must this thread become a new frontier for the Stark/SHRA bashfest? So I'll ask you nicely. bulbasteve, Tobias Drake and to anyone else reading this: Stop feeding the troll. This thread is ment for discussing this series, but more importantly issue 24.

Now to what's important. Even with the slow plot progression the actual story telling is still going strong and I still have enough patience to wait for the ending. Though we still don't know how the extremis is affecting Tony's mind, so far it has been helping him maybe even guiding towards a confrontation with the mandarin. Guice draws a slick classic Iron Man but I'd rather have one artist on the series and early on I fell in love with Torre's work.

[Eclips0]

*sigh* I'd just recently finished reading this (and what great issue it was!), thought I'd check out the boards and to my big suprise what do I find? 79 posts! Finally, with so many replies the knaufs run must be geting the recognition it deserves. But to my disappointment it's yet another What will it take to restore trust and friendship in the MU? (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=198664), Iron Man: IGN'S Hero of the Year! (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=202746) Must this thread become a new frontier for the Stark/SHRA bashfest? So I'll ask you nicely. bulbasteve, Tobias Drake and to anyone else reading this: Stop feeding the troll. This thread is ment for discussing this series, but more importantly issue 24.

Now to what's important. Even with the slow plot progression the actual story telling is still going strong and I still have enough patience to wait for the ending. Though we still don't know how the extremis is affecting Tony's mind, so far it has been helping him maybe even guiding towards a confrontation with the mandarin. Guice draws a slick classic Iron Man but I'd rather have one artist on the series and early on I fell in love with Torre's work.

But the current issue touches on larger issues in the over all run of the series. And if you want to blame someone for the fact that all the Iron Man threads end up like this then talk to Marvel.

[StoneGold]

Because the heroes would reveal the dirty secrets of the govenment to justify it and I think the next time Mags or Kang or Doom attacked the public would switch back over to loving the heroes. People are very fickle by nature.

You've never actually read Squadron Supreme/Kingdom Come/Authority/Supreme Power/Watchmen/about 2/3 of all What Ifs, have you?

[Eclips0]

Yes I have read many of those, And if anything they show how fickle the public is.

[Exo]

But the current issue touches on larger issues in the over all run of the series. And if you want to blame someone for the fact that all the Iron Man threads end up like this then talk to Marvel.

I've read everything that has has been said in this thread and so far nothing new has been touched up on just the same "I need to remind you that I hate Stark/SHRA" mantra. You already have two major threads to further express your various opinions about Tony Stark CW and the SHRA. Something you've clearly been doing for your last 250 posts in those two threads with the same people. You don't need to spread your "opinions" into every Ironman related thread on these boards. Are we cool about this? http://forums.comicbookresources.com/images/icons/icon14.gif

[Eclips0]

Marvel is the one to blame for this. I really think it's honestly going to take a long time before people can see an Iron Man thread and not bring up what happens in his issues as a microcasum for the overall disaster.

[Will.S]

*sigh* I'd just recently finished reading this (and what great issue it was!), thought I'd check out the boards and to my big suprise what do I find? 79 posts! Finally, with so many replies the knaufs run must be geting the recognition it deserves. But to my disappointment it's yet another What will it take to restore trust and friendship in the MU? (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=198664), Iron Man: IGN'S Hero of the Year! (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=202746) Must this thread become a new frontier for the Stark/SHRA bashfest? So I'll ask you nicely. bulbasteve, Tobias Drake and to anyone else reading this: Stop feeding the troll. This thread is ment for discussing this series, but more importantly issue 24.
Agreed.

Now to what's important. Even with the slow plot progression the actual story telling is still going strong and I still have enough patience to wait for the ending. Though we still don't know how the extremis is affecting Tony's mind, so far it has been helping him maybe even guiding towards a confrontation with the mandarin. Guice draws a slick classic Iron Man but I'd rather have one artist on the series and early on I fell in love with Torre's work.
Ever since Tony got the extremis there has definitely been a harder edge to him with Mallen and Crimson Dynamo and Ellis left it to the other writers to explore whether it would have side effects.

I'm not sure how a current day Mandarin vs Iron Man fight would go, it depends on how well he can do by himself and if the rings can be used without them being on his hands. Regarding the artists, I like Guice's art better than De La Torre's since it's nicer looking, smooth, and more along the lines of the Captain America style of art but Torre has been improving in his art leaps and bounds too. He's almost touching a Bryan Hitch style there that I'm curious to see in the future of whatever book he'll be on.

[Tobias Drake]

*sigh* I'd just recently finished reading this (and what great issue it was!), thought I'd check out the boards and to my big suprise what do I find? 79 posts! Finally, with so many replies the knaufs run must be geting the recognition it deserves. But to my disappointment it's yet another What will it take to restore trust and friendship in the MU? (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=198664), Iron Man: IGN'S Hero of the Year! (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=202746) Must this thread become a new frontier for the Stark/SHRA bashfest? So I'll ask you nicely. bulbasteve, Tobias Drake and to anyone else reading this: Stop feeding the troll. This thread is ment for discussing this series, but more importantly issue 24.

I'm sorry. You're right.

On the actual issue itself, I'm eagerly enjoying the rapport between Stark and Dugan. Easily the best thing to come of the Knaufs' run is the relationship built up between these two; what started as initial distrust has grown into an alliance stronger than S.H.I.E.L.D. positions alone. Dugan has really stepped up as a supporting character, and it looks like he's finally willing to see Tony Stark and his position for more than just "It should be Nick Fury".

[Exo]

I'm not sure how a current day Mandarin vs Iron Man fight would go, it depends on how well he can do by himself and if the rings can be used without them being on his hands.

I'll admit that I haven't read a single story with the mandarin before the knaufs, but I'd guess it's not the specific bodypart that's important as long as the rings are in physical contact with the bearer.

Regarding the artists, I like Guice's art better than De La Torre's since it's nicer looking, smooth, and more along the lines of the Captain America style of art but Torre has been improving in his art leaps and bounds too. He's almost touching a Bryan Hitch style there that I'm curious to see in the future of whatever book he'll be on.

I love what Guice did with the WWH tie-ins and although their artform is quite similar for some reason I like Torre's drawings of the armor somewhat more. It looks more "fluid" and organic IMO.

[Exo]

On the actual issue itself, I'm eagerly enjoying the rapport between Stark and Dugan. Easily the best thing to come of the Knaufs' run is the relationship built up between these two; what started as initial distrust has grown into an alliance stronger than S.H.I.E.L.D. positions alone. Dugan has really stepped up as a supporting character, and it looks like he's finally willing to see Tony Stark and his position for more than just "It should be Nick Fury".

Yeah I have been digging Dugan recently. He still has faith in Tony, as a leader, and I hope he'll have a prominent role in secret invasion (not as a skrull).

[XPac]

Yeah I have been digging Dugan recently. He still has faith in Tony, as a leader, and I hope he'll have a prominent role in secret invasion (not as a skrull).

Honestly... I'm wondering if Maria Hill isn't a red herring, and Duggan won't end up the Skrull.

It's just so easy to assume Hill is the skrull because of her questionable acts... Duggan is the one that will blindside you.

Plus, there's the fact that he came back from the dead. That's pretty Skrully too.

[jonwes]

I've read everything that has has been said in this thread and so far nothing new has been touched up on just the same "I need to remind you that I hate Stark/SHRA" mantra. You already have two major threads to further express your various opinions about Tony Stark CW and the SHRA. Something you've clearly been doing for your last 250 posts in those two threads with the same people. You don't need to spread your "opinions" into every Ironman related thread on these boards. Are we cool about this? http://forums.comicbookresources.com/images/icons/icon14.gif

Exo, I made a similar point earlier and I agree 100%. The thing is, as repetitive as it gets, I do think Eclipso and people with similar views have their right to share them (over and over, if need be I guess) but I do think there's a proper place for it and funnily enough I'd say that it has very little to do with the storyline in this book. At the end of the day though, I guess it's just up to the rest of us to have a discussion about the actual book. I just put Eclipso on my ignore list and that's worked liked a charm for the most part. I will miss out if he makes some new point somewhere along the way, but I'm willing to chance it.

Now back to the book.

I do think IM has had the strongest writing that it's had in a long time. As a fan of Carnivale, I was happy the Knauf's were taking over. It took a bit for them to really settle in I think, as I thought Execute Program was solid but a bit forgettable. But everything since then has been really good.

As for the art, I really hope Guice stays on. I actually liked Torre's art a lot, but there's no denying Guice's work is classy. I stand by my initial statements about it being a bit too sketchy this issue though compared to last. I really did think another artist had done this book and that was my big annoyance, that I thought they'd changed artists again. Now that I've looked at last issue it's clearly still the same artist and it's still good, but maybe just lost an edge here and there.

I sort of miss Mandarin actually having those rings and being in a costume, but this is a cool look. And if you want some old fashioned Mandarin, the Enter The Mandarin mini is great so far. I keep hoping Marvel Legends will make a figure of the Mandarin design from that mini. It's a great update of his old look.

[Will.S]

Plus, there's the fact that he came back from the dead. That's pretty Skrully too.
You know, outside of Bendis using the continuity of that book with the Silver Samurai, I thought the whole Dugan back to life thing was just a typical case of "Let's ignore what happens in Wolverine Origins and just have Dugan up and about".

But yeah they never did explain that, it was way too fast of a recovery. It would just be somewhat of a shame to see that relationship between Dugan and Tony Stark wasn't real.

[jonwes]

But yeah they never did explain that, it was way too fast of a recovery. It would just be somewhat of a shame to see that relationship between Dugan and Tony Stark wasn't real.

That would stink. I really liked Dugan's grudging respect for Stark.

[bulbasteve]

So I'll ask you nicely. bulbasteve, Tobias Drake and to anyone else reading this: Stop feeding the troll. This thread is ment for discussing this series, but more importantly issue 24.

Yikes sorry, and I'm the worst about it feeding him too :(

Now to what's important. Even with the slow plot progression the actual story telling is still going strong and I still have enough patience to wait for the ending. Though we still don't know how the extremis is affecting Tony's mind, so far it has been helping him maybe even guiding towards a confrontation with the mandarin. Guice draws a slick classic Iron Man but I'd rather have one artist on the series and early on I fell in love with Torre's work.

I think Torre is sliiiiightly better too, but then again he drew some of the more emotionally driven issues, I mean who knows what Guice would have done if he was drawing Tony's eulogy and not him and Dugan sitting in a diner.

I wonder if Tony will see anymore ghosts, we already got Cap, Gaget (such a tragic death), Happy and Sal... maybe it IS the Mandarin and he will show him Maya to throw him off the trail that she is still alive? Wonder if any of his other dead buddies will show up (I'm looking at you Rumiko!)

[Eclips0]

Yikes sorry, and I'm the worst about it feeding him too :(

You were doing plenty of trolling. By bringing up the same issue over and over and over and over again.