Iron Man as compared to...

[Alan2099]

I just have a quick question for people that still consider Ironman a heroic character, well, maybe not a quick question.

What is your opinion of Magneto, Dr. Doom, and Punisher, both individually and as compared to Ironman?

[Jake V]

I just have a quick question for people that still consider Ironman a heroic character, well, maybe not a quick question.

What is your opinion of Magneto, Dr. Doom, and Punisher, both individually and as compared to Ironman?

Entertaining enough to read a comic book starring them.

[Camron Amaya]

The Punisher isn't right but he's not completly wrong either. In a non perfect world, what he does kind of fits. Iron Man is nowhere near as bad but what he does usualy must be done too and fits.

[Brother Justin Crowe]

I just have a quick question for people that still consider Ironman a heroic character, well, maybe not a quick question.

What is your opinion of Magneto, Dr. Doom, and Punisher, both individually and as compared to Ironman?

Magneto is more of a hero than Iron Man.

Victor and Tony are on par.

Frank and Tony are both fascists, but at least Frank has his metaphorical heart in the right place. Also, his literal heart works a lot better.

[Camron Amaya]

Magneto is more of a hero than Iron Man.

Victor and Tony are on par.

Frank and Tony are both fascists, but at least Frank has his metaphorical heart in the right place. Also, his literal heart works a lot better.

You seriosly think Tony is the same as Dr. Doom? And Magneto is more heroic?

Reasons?

[Tobias Drake]

You seriosly think Tony is the same as Dr. Doom? And Magneto is more heroic?

Reasons?

Because he's a Stark-hater. Standard fare.

[Camron Amaya]

Because he's a Stark-hater. Standard fare.

Yea but I mean I was against Tony during Civil War too but I'd never go that far to say him and Doom are the same. He's still a hero in my mind, I just didn't agree with him and the cloning of a close friend was the only thing I'd trully call f***ed up.

Honestly the more people (usualy people I consider very far from myself in personality and opinion) hate on Tony the more I like him lmao.

[Tobias Drake]

Yea but I mean I was against Tony during Civil War too but I'd never go that far to say him and Doom are the same. He's still a hero in my mind, I just didn't agree with him and the cloning of a close friend was the only thing I'd trully call f***ed up.

That's the difference between anti-Reg and Stark-hater. The hate some people on this board harbor for Stark boggles my mind. @.@

[SquidSquod]

Magneto is more of a hero than Iron Man.

Victor and Tony are on par.

Frank and Tony are both fascists, but at least Frank has his metaphorical heart in the right place. Also, his literal heart works a lot better.

Read the first post before typing Capital M.

[Capt USA]

Magneto in most instances is more of a hero than current Tony. Magneto has a goal he believes in, and does what is necessary but unlike Tony he doesn't manipulate his friends as much as try to get them to join him, one advantage that Tony does have over all the other villains listed is that he didn't intentionally kill anyone.

Ranking of heroicness

Magneto
Tony
Dr Doom
Every real life serial killer
Punisher (who is absolutely zero percent heroic)

Before Civil War Tony was somewhat of a manipulator, but not a guy who always accepted ends = means, he would do a much better job of weighing the consequences before going for ends= means, add into the fact that for years he refused to manufacture weapons and you had a guy with a strong moral code even if it cost him something, now we have a guy who is willing to sacrifice his morals for what he considers to be the ultimate good.

[Eclips0]

I don't hate Tony as much as the villain the wirters have turned him into. I used to be a huge fan and long time reader of the character.

[Camron Amaya]

Magneto in most instances is more of a hero than current Tony. Magneto has a goal he believes in, and does what is necessary but unlike Tony he doesn't manipulate his friends as much as try to get them to join him, one advantage that Tony does have over all the other villains listed is that he didn't intentionally kill anyone.

Ranking of heroicness

Magneto
Tony
Dr Doom
Every real life serial killer
Punisher (who is absolutely zero percent heroic)

Before Civil War Tony was somewhat of a manipulator, but not a guy who always accepted ends = means, he would do a much better job of weighing the consequences before going for ends= means, add into the fact that for years he refused to manufacture weapons and you had a guy with a strong moral code even if it cost him something, now we have a guy who is willing to sacrifice his morals for what he considers to be the ultimate good.


How many times has Tony saved or been part of saving innocent people, the world, or the whole universe? How many people has he murdered in cold blood while in his normal state of mind?

Now same question for Magneto and Doom.

And not to mention their other despicable acts which didn't necesseraly end in death, like pulling out Wolverine's adamantium through his wounds.

Also I don't think it's fair to put "every day serial killers" above the Punisher.

Seriel killers are people who for pleasure or whatever other psychotic reason rape and/or kill everyone from innocent children to women and men. Punisher is a guy who only kills scum.....like those same seriel killers. Now I'm not arguing Punisher is a hero, but how is he not better then that? He's almost always tried to save innocent people from getting hurt or in the way. Even in the MAX version.

[mindcrime]

That's the difference between anti-Reg and Stark-hater. The hate some people on this board harbor for Stark boggles my mind. @.@





so true. iron man still is my hero. i point my anger towards the people that really deserve it: the motherf@#$ing writers. im mad at being put in the position of HAVING to defend him. after reading whats goin down in one more day, im even more pissed.:mad:

[XPac]

Ya know, the funny thing is that Civil War has gotten me to appreciate Magneto's perspective more.

Not that I agree with a great many things he did (his actions in Eve of Destruction for example were totally inexcusable). But he's fearful that humans might kill off his people... and given how evil and corrupt we're seeing the government and public act these days I almost don't blame him for wanting to fight back. Almost, but not quite.

[Eclips0]

Ya know, the funny thing is that Civil War has gotten me to appreciate Magneto's perspective more.

Not that I agree with a great many things he did (his actions in Eve of Destruction for example were totally inexcusable). But he's fearful that humans might kill off his people... and given how evil and corrupt we're seeing the government and public act these days I almost don't blame him for wanting to fight back. Almost, but not quite.

See thats what makes Mags and Tony so much alike, they are both scared of pretty much the same thing, and the problem is they both go about it in the wrong ways doing villainous things for what they believe is the greater good.

On the other side you have Xavier and Cap trying desperately to show them another way.

I see them both as villains, but tragic ones.

[bulbasteve]

See thats what makes Mags and Tony so much alike, they are both scared of pretty much the same thing, and the problem is they both go about it in the wrong ways doing villainous things for what they believe is the greater good.

On the other side you have Xavier and Cap trying desperately to show them another way.

I see them both as villains, but tragic ones.

Xavier is the king of compromise. My god he barely even has a school, it's a glorified paramilitary camp and he had his teenage students taking missions from the FBI right from the start. Geez if you wanna blame anyone for the "metas are no more than guns" it's Xavier. Seeing has Cap NEVER articulated his views, we don't even know what other way he even WANTED to show.

[Eclips0]

I think Cap made his views on the subject very clear and Xavier trains his students to survive but he does not allow the government to control them. He didn't take missions, he helped out. He wasn't forced into it as Tony would have it.

[Jota]

Tony is manipulative, a control freak, a liar and his "ends justify the means" philosophy has been too extreme lately, but he's still above all of the others.

Punisher only goes after criminals, but his obsessive atitude and the pleasure he has in kiling them is not exactly healthy. He may not be a bad guy, but he's definitly a nut.

Doom is power hungry. He's a dictator! He might believe that the world would be a better place if he called the shots, but, lets face it, he's not doing it for us. His ultimate goal is power.

Magneto has some good goals, like protecting his people, but that is soiled by his actions and by is hate for humanity. To reach his goals, he has no problems in killing, brainwashing or hurting other mutants, if they opose him. He might say its for the good of all mutants, but people who are geting killed don't usualy buy it that its for their own good.
Also, he's a bit power hungry. He wants a world where mutants are safe, but that is usually under his domain. If he ruled, he probably would be a kind, iluminated despot, but he'd still be a despot.

Iron Man is, to me, still better then them, even if I don't agree with the SHRA. With all of his flaws, he saved millions of lives, much more then all of the other three can say.

[Eclips0]

Doom does want whats best for his people, he does genuinely care about them I think Tony has become a mix of Doom and Mags.

[mikekerr3]

That's the difference between anti-Reg and Stark-hater. The hate some people on this board harbor for Stark boggles my mind. @.@

The love some people on this board have for Iron Thugs tactics boggles some of our minds too.

[mindcrime]

The love some people on this board have for Iron Thugs tactics boggles some of our minds too.




well, since we boggle each others minds, i guess we will just have agree to disagree when it comes to iron man.

[StoneGold]

Frank and Tony are both fascists, but at least Frank has his metaphorical heart in the right place. Also, his literal heart works a lot better.

You really have no idea what a fascist is, do you? OK, even ignoring Iron Man for a second, Castle is about as far from a fascist as you can get. He doesn't have any political ideology beyond stay out of his way and let him kill the people he wants to kill. That's not fascism. That's just psychopathy. You're just using the word to make a not-so-subtle reference to Nazis that still doesn't make any sense. You lose.

[mikekerr3]

Ya know, the funny thing is that Civil War has gotten me to appreciate Magneto's perspective more.

Not that I agree with a great many things he did (his actions in Eve of Destruction for example were totally inexcusable). But he's fearful that humans might kill off his people... and given how evil and corrupt we're seeing the government and public act these days I almost don't blame him for wanting to fight back. Almost, but not quite.


You have to remember that this is Mageneto's second time though this stuff, he saw this all before. He is fighting for the survival of his race his intentions for his own people are good at the expense of others. He is a very ends justify the means character and he knows the stakes personally. But he is still a villain because of his methods.

Dr Doom is an outright villain but Tony seems to be aping his way of thought and Tactics. Tony is not as bad as Dr. Doom I will admit.
Tony has saved many and at least some of the people he is hunting down have saves more. Strange has saved everything at least a few times.

I think Its funny when Tony talks tough to Strange, he is still alive becuase Strange is not an ends justify the means type and neither is Thor. He Is alive because they choose not to kill him even with provocation.

The govermetn Tony backs is at least as bad a Doom though.

[mikekerr3]

well, since we boggle each others minds, i guess we will just have agree to disagree when it comes to iron man.

Thats a good Idea. We can argue about it politely though.:D

You are civil in these discussions and I respect that.

[mindcrime]

Thats a good Idea. We can argue about it politely though.:D

You are civil in these discussions and I respect that.




of course. im glad you guys are too. ive ran into too many people that arent. we are just talking about comics ya know. never understood why some people have to get personal.

[mikekerr3]

You really have no idea what a fascist is, do you? OK, even ignoring Iron Man for a second, Castle is about as far from a fascist as you can get. He doesn't have any political ideology beyond stay out of his way and let him kill the people he wants to kill. That's not fascism. That's just psychopathy. You're just using the word to make a not-so-subtle reference to Nazis that still doesn't make any sense. You lose.

I agree with you Frank is a Psychopath not a fascist, fascist work for the power over the state against the power of the individual. Tony is not a fascist in motive only in methods. Those methods are my objection.

Since what you actually do in the world is more important than what you think Tony is functioning as a fascist. I don't think he seems to have the capacity to understand how someone might disagree with him without that person being wrong.

[Will.S]

The love some people on this board have for Iron Thugs tactics boggles some of our minds too.
I don't think anyone particularly enjoys Iron Man's methods but they don't have to to find them interesting. Iron Man's goal isn't trying to be an evil dictator or criminal mastermind but the way he does things make for interesting conversation & arguments which give people a list stuff to analyze and go:

"Ok, he did some messed up stuff but I can understand why" (War Profiteering, hiring Titanium Man to sway Congress away from Registration, bombing terrorist Atlanteans, enforcing Registration and the 42 prison)

or

"Man that was messed up, that's gonna bite him back in the ass sooner or later" (Exiling Hulk, depowering and not telling She-Hulk, Clor, making Peter reveal his identity)

[SquidSquod]

Tony is not a nice guy, but it's not comparable to these guys who have no qualms of killing like Mag, Doom, or even the Punisher whom I consider still in the side good in a sense he's doing (comic) justice over (comic) crime.

So please have your moral values checked if you think a murderer is more of a hero then and oft dishonest, arrogant man.

[mikekerr3]

"Man that was messed up, that's gonna bite him back in the ass sooner or later" (Exiling Hulk, depowering and not telling She-Hulk, Clor, making Peter reveal his identity)

He never sems to pay in any meaningful way and Narvel seems to be pushing that he's a hero for doing these things.

These boards can make it worse as there are some who can see nothing that he as done as messed up much less immoral.

[matthewaos]

I respect Magneto because he is "honest". I mean he doesn't have a problem threatening mankind, or whoever, and you know it. Tony on the other hand is more of a "ends justify the means" type of guy, he is looking good but he is a manipulative capitalist. Doom is a dictator. I can't sympathize with a man like that. Someone who cares for his people let's them have their doubts for his rule. The Punisher in a not perfect world is the greatest of all. I don't believe in the death sentence, through court or whatever. But if I believed I would prefer to know that a guy like the Punisher is out there doing all the gangsters, than having the fear of a corrupted judge. Punisher is exactly the wrath of God.

[SquidSquod]

I respect Magneto because he is "honest". I mean he doesn't have a problem threatening mankind, or whoever, and you know it. Tony on the other hand is more of a "ends justify the means" type of guy, he is looking good but he is a manipulative capitalist. Doom is a dictator. I can't sympathize with a man like that. Someone who cares for his people let's them have their doubts for his rule. The Punisher in a not perfect world is the greatest of all. I don't believe in the death sentence, through court or whatever. But if I believed I would prefer to know that a guy like the Punisher is out there doing all the gangsters, than having the fear of a corrupted judge. Punisher is exactly the wrath of God.

Think again.

All four guys are doing the "end justify the means" thing. Tony and Victor are more manipulative than the rest. Erik is more grandiose in his scheme. Frank has little ambition, but he's that forceful in doing what he wants. But compared to the rest, Tony is more averse to killing human lives than the rest.

[Alan2099]

Oddly enough, I think Punisher is the most honest of the group. You always know exactly where you stand with the guy and exactly what his goals are. In those few instances when he has a choice between being arrested or harming innocent people, he lets himself be arrested.

In fact, out of the group, I'd say Tony is the least honest one of them. Even Doom keeps his word once he gives it. He's actually told heroes that he's worked with that if the time came where he had a chance to turn on them and get more power out of the deal, he's taking it. That kind of brutal honesty you don't get from Ironman.

[SquidSquod]

Well Iron Man is a more prominent character than Magneto or Doom (he has his own book, remember). So his characterizations are far and wide depending upon the writers. Still Tony Stark is never about stone cold honesty. Yet when you compare dishonesty and murderous intention, it doesn't compare. Killing people are the worst capital offense in the real and comic world.

[Drdmx]

I just have a quick question for people that still consider Ironman a heroic character, well, maybe not a quick question.

What is your opinion of Magneto, Dr. Doom, and Punisher, both individually and as compared to Ironman?

Where's hitler in this selection!?!??

[Mark_S]

The characters basic motivations are different. Frank Castle is a man in deep pain from the loss of his family and he is externalizing that pain, trying to make everyone around him feel it. The only mitigating factor is that he's targeting people who he judges to be bad. Every time he kills a mobster Frank Castle imagines he's killing one of the men who killed his family, but it never makes him feel better. He can't understand why not so he keeps killing in the hopes that it one day will.

Magneto has seen a people nearly wiped out and he is basically acting from fear. In his mind there is no real difference between the prison guards who herded his family into the death camps and the rest of humanity. And there is also no real difference between himself and other mutants. In Magneto's mind the best human is still far, far worse than the lowliest mutant who ever lived. We saw that in House of M, where his mutant ruled world had muntants oppressing the humans. He didn't care about the normals.

Doom opperates from a firm conviction that the world-the universe itself-has produced him as the ultimate culmination of life. Sure there are more powerful beings out there-Galactus and such-but only becuase they've been around longer. He'll match them and surpass them sooner or later. In the meantime he is living in a world where others are daring to presume that they have power. Worse they do not even realize that the only way they should get power is for him to give it to them. And they blunder about, trying in their dumb way to fix the worlds problems, problems that are to Doom barely worth an afternoons thoughts. They don't realize that of course, they are too dumb or jealous (like that idiot Richards). So he'll just have to show them.

Tony is a cross between Magneto and Doom. Like Magneto he lives in fear, fear of what the world would be like if he weren't around to fix things. In that he is like Doom. Tony see's the world as a gigantic problem to solve and while others are smarter (Reed), they are only smart in certain areas. Only He has the all around intelligence and sophistication to guide the world toward the direction he wants it to go. But the problem is that while he'll go to great lengths-Clor, Cape Killers-he won't do what Doom has done and embrace the meglomania completely. Tony allways has to pull back after he's shot forward, plagued by guilt yet egged on by his ego. He'll clone Thor, feel bad about it and swear never to do it again, then do something just as bad like sleeping with Jen and then depowering her. Tony is constantly looking for the right thing to do but his complete lack of faith in the rest of humanity will never let him find it. So he lurches back and forth from villain to semi-hero and maybe once in a while you find him at the ballance point and he's a nice guy, but the moment never lasts. And in the meantime almost every life he touches feels pain from his actions.

Mark_S

[matthewaos]

Think again.

All four guys are doing the "end justify the means" thing. Tony and Victor are more manipulative than the rest. Erik is more grandiose in his scheme. Frank has little ambition, but he's that forceful in doing what he wants. But compared to the rest, Tony is more averse to killing human lives than the rest.

Sure everyone is about means and ends, but I feel like you don't know when Tony is a friend and when he is actually using you. He may not using you for something "bad" but that's debatable. Magneto is manipulative, he may use you even if you are a mutant, but you know that if you have the same goal as he, that been mutantkind's dominion over humans. I sure believe that Punisher is the only one you know where you stand.

[XPac]

I personally go easiest on Punisher here. He's a guy that's basically nuts, because he lost his family. I don't agree with him, but I understand it and honestly don't feel that negatively towards him.

[Eclips0]

I see Tony as partly Doom, because he tries to control people, he tries to force them to do things his way because he thinks only he can be right and that there is no alternative other then his way.

I see Tony as also being part Magneto, in that he acts out of fear and takes the most extreme measures regardless of whether they are legal or ethical or moral. Ironically they are both afriad of the same thing.

Tony was a hero, and is not completely beyond redemption, but at the moment he is a villain.

[Exo]

How can anyone object to one type of evil and embrace another?

I'm sure the Punisher has killed his share of criminals for commiting thievery (petty and grand), peddling drugs maybe even jaywalking. Sure, most of these people needed to be punished but killed in cold-blood?

[Eclips0]

I object to the Punishers tactics as well, I consider him to be a villain as well.

[Arilou]

I just have a quick question for people that still consider Ironman a heroic character, well, maybe not a quick question.

What is your opinion of Magneto, Dr. Doom, and Punisher, both individually and as compared to Ironman?

The Punisher is basically a psycho. He has no real plan, goal or reason to his killing except nailing the "bad guys".

Magneto is, depending on how he is written, either a well-intentioned extremist or just plain psycho.

Doom is a different matter. Unlike Mags he has no good *personal* qualities whatsoever: He is a loathsome fellow, but what he is, is competent. Doom would be a great ruler of the world.... And he'd do it just to spite Reed Richards.

Of the three Tony is most like Mags, or if we go outside the list, Ozymandias. He's manipulating people constantly in order to achieve his goals, and I think he does so out of a kind of fear, or rather, an ephiphany he had at some point, namely he realized what kind of power he actually had. What he could DO. And once he realized what he COULD do, how he could shape the world, he couldn't not do it: For the same reason Spidey couldn't *not* stop a burglar. Power and Responsibility.


I agree with you Frank is a Psychopath not a fascist, fascist work for the power over the state against the power of the individual. Tony is not a fascist in motive only in methods. Those methods are my objection.

That's not really what fascism is about. It's part of it, but not the entire thing. It's much more complicated than that. It is the ideology of contradictions more than anything: On one hand strongly indivdualist, on the other strongly collectivist. Tony lacks a whole bunch of elements of fascism.


Since what you actually do in the world is more important than what you think Tony is functioning as a fascist. I don't think he seems to have the capacity to understand how someone might disagree with him without that person being wrong.

Which has been the failing of many a person who would have been fed their share of castor oil under the fascist regime.

[Brother Justin Crowe]

Because he's a Stark-hater. Standard fare.

Actually, I'm not a Stark hater. He's actually one of my favorite characters, a and it's because he's an extremely flawed person. Tony's actions and Doom's characterization reveal a certain obsession with order and control. As for Magneto, I think he's more heroic than Tony because he legitimately wants to save his people, and Tony will only save his ass.

[Arilou]

Actually, I'm not a Stark hater. He's actually one of my favorite characters, a and it's because he's an extremely flawed person. Tony's actions and Doom's characterization reveal a certain obsession with order and control. As for Magneto, I think he's more heroic than Tony because he legitimately wants to save his people, and Tony will only save his ass.

I'd not disagree with your characterization of Tony as rather obsessed with control, but I do disagree with your characterization of him as *unselfish*

Basically:

Magneto: Unselfish, unconcerned with control (at least not particularly concerned)

Doom: Selfish, concerned with order and control

Stark: Unselfish, concerned with order and control.

I think it has to do with their backgrounds as engineers/technicians. Both Doom and Stark tends to see society and people as cogs in a machine. Push that button and you get that reaction, turn that lever and people react thusly...

[Brother Justin Crowe]

You really have no idea what a fascist is, do you? OK, even ignoring Iron Man for a second, Castle is about as far from a fascist as you can get. He doesn't have any political ideology beyond stay out of his way and let him kill the people he wants to kill. That's not fascism. That's just psychopathy. You're just using the word to make a not-so-subtle reference to Nazis that still doesn't make any sense. You lose.

Um, okay, because fascist ideology doesn't match up with executing jaywalkers or speeding drivers? Fascism can be defined as "oppressive, dictatorial control", and that's exactly what Frank Castle employs. He gets to decide who lives and who dies. And I actually wasn't referencing Nazis at all -- just fascism as a general concept. There have been many more fascists in the world than Hitler. Spain, Italy, Croatia, Hungary and various other countries have or have had fascist leaders. If you try telling me, or anyone else educated in history, for that matter, that these leaders were Nazis, you're going to be in a world of trouble. Sure, the Italians may have worked with them, but that's another story entirely.

The Punisher is not as bad in this situation as Green Arrow, a self-professed liberal politician who goes around shooting arrows into people at night. Great job there, Ollie! And I think Castle's desire for people to "stay out of his way and let him kill the people he wants to kill" has been used by fascists, dictators and general bad guys throughout history. Pol Pot comes to mind, as well as the ethnic cleansing in Rwanda and other nations. And for your information, the world fascism was invented by two Italians to describe their own government.

[Arilou]

Um, okay, because fascist ideology doesn't match up with executing jaywalkers or speeding drivers? Fascism can be defined as "oppressive, dictatorial control", and that's exactly what Frank Castle employs. He gets to decide who lives and who dies. And I actually wasn't referencing Nazis at all -- just fascism as a general concept. There have been many more fascists in the world than Hitler. Spain, Italy, Croatia, Hungary and various other countries have or have had fascist leaders. If you try telling me, or anyone else educated in history, for that matter, that the clearly fascist Franco was a Nazi, you're going to be in a world of trouble.

Franco wasn't really a fascist either, he was just your run-of-the-mill conservative military dictator. There were fascists in his kind of umbrella movement, but they were never the dominant element. (Mussolini is probably the only "pure" fascist, natural, given the origin of the term)

[Eclips0]

I'd not disagree with your characterization of Tony as rather obsessed with control, but I do disagree with your characterization of him as *unselfish*

Basically:

Magneto: Unselfish, unconcerned with control (at least not particularly concerned)

Doom: Selfish, concerned with order and control

Stark: Unselfish, concerned with order and control.

I think it has to do with their backgrounds as engineers/technicians. Both Doom and Stark tends to see society and people as cogs in a machine. Push that button and you get that reaction, turn that lever and people react thusly...

Doom and Stark both think that they know whats best for everyone and that everyone should want to follow their way and only their way of doing things.

[Arilou]

Doom and Stark both think that they know whats best for everyone and that everyone should want to follow their way and only their way of doing things.

Which isn't the same as being selfish.

EDIT: You know who also thought his way was the only right one, and that everyone should follow his way?

JESUS!

So there.

[Eclips0]

Jesus gave people the option to follow his way or not. Stark and Doom take that option away. It's their way or else.

[Brother Justin Crowe]

Jesus gave people the option to follow his way or not. Stark and Doom take that option away. It's their way or else.

*has a Batman and Robin flashback, shudders*

[Brother Justin Crowe]

Franco wasn't really a fascist either, he was just your run-of-the-mill conservative military dictator. There were fascists in his kind of umbrella movement, but they were never the dominant element. (Mussolini is probably the only "pure" fascist, natural, given the origin of the term)

Edited when I realized I had probably picked a poor example, and agreed about Mussolini, as he and Gentile created the word, after all.

[Eclips0]

*has a Batman and Robin flashback, shudders*

Huh? Don't quite understand that comparison. But Doom and Stark are operating in very very similar ways these days.

[Exo]

Doom: Selfish, concerned with order and control

Stark: Unselfish, concerned with order and control.

I'd also add that Tony's a self-sacrificing public servant. Doom is a dictator who serves no one.

[Brother Justin Crowe]

Huh? Don't quite understand that comparison. But Doom and Stark are operating in very very similar ways these days.

Clooney's Bruce Wayne is accused of having everything be his "way or the highway", which was similar to what had been typed. And since Bruce and Tony have a lot of similar characteristics and have filled similar roles in their respective universes, I now find it pertinent to ask: just how similar does everyone think Batman and Iron Man are? Many of Batman's more "hardcore" tactics are either "awesome" in the fan's eyes at best, or morally deficient at worst. For example, the whole OMAC debacle probably caused a lot more death and destruction than the SHRA. Thoughts?

[Eclips0]

I think that deserves a thread of its own.

Stark is far from the saint people make him out to be. He uses and betrays people to achieve his ends, he allows people to be killed if it furthers his goals.

And Doom does serve his people, if you read FF, he actualy does care quite allot about his people.

[Arilou]

I'd also add that Tony's a self-sacrificing public servant. Doom is a dictator who serves no one.

Agreed about that.

Clooney's Bruce Wayne is accused of having everything be his "way or the highway", which was similar to what had been typed. And since Bruce and Tony have a lot of similar characteristics and have filled similar roles in their respective universes, I now find it pertinent to ask: just how similar does everyone think Batman and Iron Man are? Many of Batman's more "hardcore" tactics are either "awesome" in the fan's eyes at best, or morally deficient at worst. For example, the whole OMAC debacle probably caused a lot more death and destruction than the SHRA. Thoughts?

They are rather similar I'd say. Batman has more hangups and takes a much narrower view though.

[Eclips0]

Tony is not self-sacraficing, it seems to me he sacrificed allot of others.

And yes he is similar to Batman, they both are narrow minded control freaks.

[Arilou]

Tony is not self-sacraficing, it seems to me he sacrificed allot of others..

He does both. You can say one thing: He doesen't demand anything of anyone that he isn't willing to do himself. (Even when he perhaps shouldn't)

[Eclips0]

Really? So he's willing to allow someone to make a clone army of him?

He is definately willing to do allot, commit murder, lie and betray. Take away the rights and freedoms of US citzens.

[Tobias Drake]

Alright, this WAS addressed initially to supporters, so I'm going to try my hand at this.

It's been said that a hero, not just a superhero but any hero, is a walking tragedy. A hero is often defined by tragedy, by pain or by loss, in some way or another. A good villain, as well, often has some defining moment, some pain or loss that has hardened him into the man he has become.

I bring this up because if there is any one thing, more than anything, that defines and shapes these four characters, one underlying current that they've all run along, this is it. All four of them have experienced that pain and that loss in some way or another, and all four, in their own way, have taken upon themselves a renewed conviction: "Never again."

For Magneto, it was the Holocaust. This is both his greatest source of strength, and his greatest weakness. It gave him the strength of will and the conviction to fight for his kind by whatever means necessary to ensure that such an event never happens to mutantkind. But it blinded him to all other alternatives; so enveloped is he at averting his expected mutant Holocaust through violence and war that it renders him ignorant of the possibility that there is a different way and that mutant Holocaust is not the only option that could come. It's just too personal for him; his trauma isn't healing, and ultimately it's turning him into the very monster he was so eager to fight against.

Doom is probably the weakest example. For him, it all goes back to the loss of his parents, his mother to Mephisto, his father to escaping the Baron of Latveria. Given his history of oppression from Latveria's Baron, it's only natural he would strike back and do everything within his power to overthrow him. Which, ultimately, he did. I can't speak for Doom as a ruler; beyond a vindictive hatred of Reed Richards stemming from misunderstanding of circumstance and a desire to conquer the world, I'm uncertain just how villainous he is. I attribute this to inexperience with the character; I've seen Latveria to be prospering and glorious under his rule, though; I can't say if that's true or not. Maybe someone who's been around longer than I have could confirm or deny?

Castle...is the easiest. Frank Castle is, in every way, a walking tragedy that gets darker with every step. We all know the story of how his family was caught in the crossfire of a gang war, slaughtered not by any particular crimelord or supervillain, but by the sheer audacity of crime. And how he's taken it upon himself to return the favor, declaring war on violent crime itself, not on any one crimelord, but on the very audacious crime that took everything from him. His is not a story of heroism, triumph, or justice. His is a story of the endless cycle of vengeance, and a tragedy of a man who has nothing left to cling to, but violence.

It's personal. It's always personal, and these three men are no exception. But how, then, does this relate to Iron Man, as we know him today? Because it happened to him; the only difference is that it wasn't personal.

Stamford. A group of superheroes itching to make a reality show go unpreparedly ambush a group of supervillains, resulting in an explosion that kills 600 people and wipes out an elementary school next door. It wasn't personal. It wasn't his family or his race killed. It was children; it was the sheer horror of it all that made Tony Stark realize this should never happen again. And therein lies the underlying difference: it isn't personal. Magneto, Doom, and Castle, all three have agendas so personal, so engraved into their souls that they can't see beyond them. Stark has a measure of detachment that gives him the foresight to see past his own goal, and that, I think, is what is going to make him a successful leader. At its very core, some factors may be the same...but it isn't personal.

[Eclips0]

Stamford was not the New Warriors fault, Nitro could've done the same thing no matter who he was fighting, it was very poorly written.

And if Stark wants heroes to be trained better, I am all for that but it can be done without registration. Stark took unecessary steps and several criminal ones to implement his way of doing things, he would'nt listen to anyone else. Only his way was right.

He operated in a very similar way to how Doom would've handled it in his place.

[Arilou]

Stamford. A group of superheroes itching to make a reality show go unpreparedly ambush a group of supervillains, resulting in an explosion that kills 600 people and wipes out an elementary school next door. It wasn't personal. It wasn't his family or his race killed. It was children; it was the sheer horror of it all that made Tony Stark realize this should never happen again. And therein lies the underlying difference: it isn't personal. Magneto, Doom, and Castle, all three have agendas so personal, so engraved into their souls that they can't see beyond them. Stark has a measure of detachment that gives him the foresight to see past his own goal, and that, I think, is what is going to make him a successful leader. At its very core, some factors may be the same...but it isn't personal.´

I'd actually disagree. (Although I your intrepretation as well) I don't think Stark was really shocked by Stamford. More like resigned. I got the feeling he had been waiting for this for a long time.

[Eclips0]

´

I'd actually disagree. (Although I your intrepretation as well) I don't think Stark was really shocked by Stamford. More like resigned. I got the feeling he had been waiting for this for a long time.

Which even more proves he is similar to Doom, he manipulated a tragedy for his own ends.

[Arilou]

And if Stark wants heroes to be trained better, I am all for that but it can be done without registration. ´

In the particulars? Yes. In the general? No. Some kind of general, compulsory training programme would have to be instituted. A "Hero driver's licensce" if you wish. And that requires some impartial agency to know who and what is doing it.

It doesen't *have* to be the government, neccessarily, but it has to be an agency that the government can trust. It has to affect all the heroes, and it has to be able to enforce it's training regimen of every hero.

[Arilou]

Which even more proves he is similar to Doom, he manipulated a tragedy for his own ends.

Not his own ends, but ends, certainly.

[Eclips0]

It can be done without registration, the heroes could set up some kind of monitoring to detect when new heroes appear and then have a heroe team to find and train them. This does not require registration and just because they are trained in the use of their abilities does not mean they should be under government control.

[Eclips0]

Not his own ends, but ends, certainly.

Yes his ends, he used it to get what he wanted.

[Arilou]

It can be done without registration, the heroes could set up some kind of monitoring to detect when new heroes appear and then have a heroe team to find and train them. This does not require registration and just because they are trained in the use of their abilities does not mean they should be under government control.

Uh, it does. Just registration by some kind of hero-commonwealth rather than the government (incidentally that was what would have happened had Captain America not buzzed Tony according to the What-if, no?)

Something like that seems to have been Tony's original plan, btw. But once the war was on the government decided that the heroes couldn't be trusted with it.

[Arilou]

Yes his ends, he used it to get what he wanted.

No, he used it to get what he figured was the right thing.
Not neccessarily the same thing.

[Tobias Drake]

Stamford was not the New Warriors fault, Nitro could've done the same thing no matter who he was fighting, it was very poorly written.

1. Nitro had all the time he needed for the explosion because Namorita stood there posturing when she should have been going for the KO hit to keep him from doing so. Her handling, specifically, was absolutely terrible. She gave him all the leeway he needed; she inadvertantly handed him his massacre. So I disagree, he couldn't have done the same thing no matter who he was fighting; Iron Man, Spider-Man, Captain America, Wolverine, these people would have known better than to stand there and let him go off.

2. And it's not just about the who. It's about the where. Namorita threw him into a schoolbus, then allowed him to explode. A man like Nitro should never have been engaged right next to a school if it could be avoided. And if it couldn't, he should have been removed from the area as fast as possible.

If the battle had been handled better, it wouldn't have happened. Nitro caused the explosion, but how the heroes in question handled him was sloppy in every way, shape, and form. This is why "New Warriors" is an insult at Camp Hammond; because in that moment, they represented the worst-case scenario of unlicensed, untrained, and inexperienced vigilantes.

And if Stark wants heroes to be trained better, I am all for that but it can be done without registration. Stark took unecessary steps and several criminal ones to implement his way of doing things, he would'nt listen to anyone else. Only his way was right.

He operated in a very similar way to how Doom would've handled it in his place.

Except that "training a handful of volunteers vigilantes" isn't the entire purpose. "Removing untrained vigilantes from the streets" is part of it as well. It doesn't do anyone any good to leave untrained, inexperienced kids running around getting themselves killed.

That said, my only issue (though it's still HIGHLY debateable) is the word "superhuman" and not "vigilante". If it's a blanket superhuman draft, I disagree with that. But I see nothing wrong with a registration for metahuman abilities in general, and then training ONLY for those who want to be vigilantes. Which I have not seen sign that the SHRA and Initiative are any different than what I proposed, though like I said, it's still highly debatable (and often debated on this board!).

[Eclips0]

No, he used it to get what he figured was the right thing.
Not neccessarily the same thing.

And thats the same as what Doom does for the people of Latveria.

[Exo]

Tony is not self-sacraficing, it seems to me he sacrificed allot of others.

You fail, there's been several cases (pre and post CW) that shows Tony favoring the safety of others at the risk of his own life.

[Eclips0]

Except that "training a handful of volunteers vigilantes" isn't the entire purpose. "Removing untrained vigilantes from the streets" is part of it as well. It doesn't do anyone any good to leave untrained, inexperienced kids running around getting themselves killed.

That said, my only issue (though it's still HIGHLY debateable) is the word "superhuman" and not "vigilante". If it's a blanket superhuman draft, I disagree with that. But I see nothing wrong with a registration for metahuman abilities in general, and then training ONLY for those who want to be vigilantes. Which I have not seen sign that the SHRA and Initiative are any different than what I proposed, though like I said, it's still highly debatable (and often debated on this board!).


They should not have to act as government operatives nor give up their identities. They can be trained in the use of their powers without those two restrictions. And they are not vigilantes, this has been covered many many times now.

[Arilou]

They should not have to act as government operatives nor give up their identities. They can be trained in the use of their powers without those two restrictions. And they are not vigilantes, this has been covered many many times now.

They cannot be trained or monitored without giving up their identities.

[Eclips0]

You fail, there's been several cases (pre and post CW) that shows Tony favoring the safety of others at the risk of his own life.

I'm sure Goliath would disagree. Your trying to make a hero out of a guy who committed many crimes in support of an unconstitutional law.

[Eclips0]

They cannot be trained or monitored without giving up their identities.

Yes they can, I do not see how either would require them to give up their identities.

They can be trained by other experienced heroes and those same heroes can bring them to justice if they cross the line.

[Arilou]

Yes they can, I do not see how either would require them to give up their identities.

They can be trained by other experienced heroes and those same heroes can bring them to justice if they cross the line.

Again, that would still mean they had to give up their identities, to said heroes.



I'm sure Goliath would disagree. Your trying to make a hero out of a guy who committed many crimes in support of an unconstitutional law.

What precisely was selfish in Tony's actions visavi Goliath?

Stupid, short sighted, arrogant, even criminally negligent? Sure. But SELFISH?

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

[Exo]

They should not have to act as government operatives nor give up their identities.

And why's that? Because you have no trust in the government and the legal system? What about our police force? Should they be a self-governing organization with secret identities? In comicbooks aswell as in the real world?

And they are not vigilantes, this has been covered many many times now.

I thought a vigilante was any person who takes the law into his own hands?

[Tobias Drake]

They should not have to act as government operatives nor give up their identities. They can be trained in the use of their powers without those two restrictions. And they are not vigilantes, this has been covered many many times now.

vigilante n. One who takes or advocates the taking of law enforcement into one's own hands.

Now you're arguing semantics. By sheer definition of the word, they are vigilantes. You can argue "citizen arrest" and "good samaritan law" all you want, but they crossed the line into outright vigilantism when they started actively seeking out crime to fight. Good samaritan isn't when you go on daily, routine patrols looking for criminals you can arrest, despite having no legal entitlement to do so. That's vigilantism and it's illegal. Argue semantics all you want. The strawman defense falls apart when they start patrolling.

Not giving up their identities doesn't even work. How do you register metahumans without knowing who they are? You can't register as "Spider-Man". I could put on a mask, say I'm Spider-Man, and then proceed to slander "Spider-Man"'s good name and there would be nothing they could do about it because they cannot prove that it wasn't Spider-Man. It's completely antithetical to the entire point. And without that registration, they are still illegal vigilantes. And only a handful of volunteers could be trained because they can't go out and locate other metahumans, sign them up, and ask if they want training. Nothing is solved that way. Nothing whatsoever. It would be a completely pointless exercise in futility.

I'm sure Goliath would disagree. Your trying to make a hero out of a guy who committed many crimes in support of an unconstitutional law.

And I have little if any sympathy for a criminal killed in battle after throwing a semi at armed law enforcement officials and then launching himself at another legal official, regardless of just how completely malfunctioned the latter official may have been.

[Exo]

I'm sure Goliath would disagree.

If you've read What if Civil War you'd know that, had Tony the chance, he'd give his life then and there for the life of Goliath.

[Eclips0]

And why's that? Because you have no trust in the government and the legal system? What about our police force? Should they be a self-governing organization with secret identities? In comicbooks aswell as in the real world?



I thought a vigilante was any person who takes the law into his own hands?

As I said the vigilante question has already been addressed and explained.

Because it's too much power in the hands of the government, and no the government in the MU is far from one I would trust.

[Exo]

As I said the vigilante question has already been addressed and explained.

Superstars such as the Avengers were once sanctioned by the UN (and maybe the US), but the average costumed superhero (Spiderman, Daredevil) were always concidered to be vigilantes.

[Eclips0]

Again, that would still mean they had to give up their identities, to said heroes.

No they would not, I see no reason why they cannot be trained without giving up their identities. And if they cross the line then they are brought in at which point then I would agree with them losing their secret identity because they would now be guilty of being a criminal.

[Arilou]

No they would not, I see no reason why they cannot be trained without giving up their identities. And if they cross the line then they are brought in at which point then I would agree with them losing their secret identity because they would now be guilty of being a criminal.

Point is that in order to get them they'd have to know their identities.

Really, every lawayer in the US is registered. I don't see why superheroes shouldn't be.

[Eclips0]

Superstars such as the Avengers were once sanctioned by the UN (and maybe the US), but the average costumed superhero (Spiderman, Daredevil) were always concidered to be vigilantes.

Citizens are allowed to arrest people and detain them until the authorities arrive. The heroes don't convict and punish them, they still let the legal system do it. All they do is stop threats that the normal police cannot handle. They are not vigilantes.

[Tobias Drake]

No they would not, I see no reason why they cannot be trained without giving up their identities. And if they cross the line then they are brought in at which point then I would agree with them losing their secret identity because they would now be guilty of being a criminal.

Because there is absolutely no way of ensuring that you are who you say you are. If I sign up for the Avengers as "Hydro-Man", tomorrow I could have a H.Y.D.R.A. assassin go in as "Hydro-Man" wearing my mask and start killing people, and they would have no way of ensuring I don't. You cannot regulate anonymity.

Citizens are allowed to arrest people and detain them until the authorities arrive. The heroes don't convict and punish them, they still let the legal system do it. All they do is stop threats that the normal police cannot handle. They are not vigilantes.

Citizens are not allowed to actively seek out people to arrest and detain. That's what makes them vigilantes.

[Eclips0]

Point is that in order to get them they'd have to know their identities.

Really, every lawayer in the US is registered. I don't see why superheroes shouldn't be.

No they wouldn't. If the hero goes too far the other ones attack him and bring him to justice.

[Exo]

No they would not, I see no reason why they cannot be trained without giving up their identities. And if they cross the line then they are brought in at which point then I would agree with them losing their secret identity because they would now be guilty of being a criminal.

They need to know who's behind the mask. For all they'd know it could be the Wrecker disguised as the toothfairy (with a magic toothpick shaped as a crowbar). A bad guy who gets legal compensation, training and a free pass into Avengers Towers.

[Eclips0]

Citizens are not allowed to actively seek out people to arrest and detain. That's what makes them vigilantes.

And where in the criminal code does it say that they cannot? If I want to go out to the mall and spend my day looking out for shoplifiters, as long as I call the police and let them take the criminal away I am allowed to preform a citizens arrest if I wish. This does not break the law.

[Tobias Drake]

No they wouldn't. If the hero goes too far the other ones attack him and bring him to justice.

Unless he changes identities, gets a new costume, and then he's off scot-free. I recall Spider-Man running between four identities at one point because he couldn't be Spider-Man.

[Exo]

Citizens are allowed to arrest people and detain them until the authorities arrive.

They do not have the authority to break and entering, step on other peoples rights or flee the scene when a real police officers orders them to stand down.

And how many times has Spiderman bagged a criminal and stayed behind for the authorities to arrive?

[Eclips0]

They do not have the authority to break and entering, step on other peoples rights or flee the scene when a real police officers orders them to stand down.

And how many times has Spiderman bagged a criminal and stayed behind for the authorities to arrive?

Under the law you have the right to break the law in order to prevent a greater crime form happening.

[Tobias Drake]

Under the law you have the right to break the law in order to prevent a greater crime form happening.

But you don't have the right to then flee the scene and leave the cops to clean up your mess.

[Mark_S]

vHow do you register metahumans without knowing who they are?


Ms. Marvel once had that problem when she joined the Avengers. Knowing that fingerprints would reveal her back ground as a government official they used retinal prints instead.

Of course this was back in the dark ages when the Avengers used a charter that respected privacy.

Mark_S

[bulbasteve]

´

I'd actually disagree. (Although I your intrepretation as well) I don't think Stark was really shocked by Stamford. More like resigned. I got the feeling he had been waiting for this for a long time.

I believe he once said he had been waiting for it since the first superperson appeared, certainly at least the CW Illuminati one showed that he was waiting for it long before Stamford. Of course that is part of the thing, we all have to remember that he even hired Titanium man to stop the push towards registration, heck Reed too years ago spoke out against registration. By all accounts the two were MORE anti-regsitration than Cap ever was.

But once it did happen he took his own advice to Cap in the What-If "it's not enough to be against something, you have to be for something" and not only works from inside to reform but took up the banner of changing the relationship between superhumans and humans with programs like The Order.

[BYC]

Under the law you have the right to break the law in order to prevent a greater crime form happening.
That is a slippery slope if one is gonna use that for justification to break laws. It can be argued Iron Man is also committing crimes now to stop a bigger crime.

[Eclips0]

But you don't have the right to then flee the scene and leave the cops to clean up your mess.

Again your thinking in terms of our world.

If Thor had to stop one villain and leave him to the authiorties, and before they could arrive another villain started an attack elsewhere, he would have to fleee the scene to stop that villain as well. Basically breaking one law to prevent a greater crime.

[Tobias Drake]

Again your thinking in terms of our world.

If Thor had to stop one villain and leave him to the authiorties, and before they could arrive another villain started an attack elsewhere, he would have to fleee the scene to stop that villain as well. Basically breaking one law to prevent a greater crime.

At which point, if he's the only one he believes can enforce the law, whether it's true or not, then he's a vigilante taking the law into his own hands.

[Eclips0]

No he's not, hes stopping a villain he knows is too strong for the normal authorities to deal with.

[Tobias Drake]

No he's not, hes stopping a villain he knows is too strong for the normal authorities to deal with.

By taking the law into his own hands.

[Mark_S]

At which point, if he's the only one he believes can enforce the law, whether it's true or not, then he's a vigilante taking the law into his own hands.

So if he stops the Juggernaut but spies the Wrecking Crew killing a group of people across town you think he should stay with the Juggernaut? Or stay out of it all together and leave it to the police?

Mark_S

[Exo]

Under the law you have the right to break the law in order to prevent a greater crime form happening.

But you said it yourself:

Citizens are allowed to arrest people and detain them until the authorities arrive.

Spiderman bags criminals and then leaves the scene. What are the police supposed to do with their webbed up john doe without having a testimony from the guy who caught him attempting to break into the liquor store?

And how many times has guys like Spiderman and Daredevil turned the whole city upside down looking for one guy? How many times haven't civilians got caught in the middle of a superhuman brawl? Why must guys like Spiderman get a free pass and leave the scene when I'm obliged to stay? What about my rights? You can't just burst through my apartment window and threaten me just because I happen to know a guy who knows a guy who knows where the Chameleon is. Who compensates me when I get my car thrown at the Rihno for robbing some old lady? And if I got killed? Who's fault was that?

[Eclips0]

Again your thinking in terms of our world.

If Thor had to stop one villain and leave him to the authiorties, and before they could arrive another villain started an attack elsewhere, he would have to fleee the scene to stop that villain as well. Basically breaking one law to prevent a greater crime.

[Exo]

Again your thinking in terms of our world.

What do you think we're supporting our arguments on? The whole premises behind the MU post-CW is to make things more real.

True. In the comicbook world, the superhero has a 99% success rate. In the real world, that percentage would probably be for the opposite. We can't have this discussion by using comic book rationality. 900 people got blown up? So what, they're only background noise anyway. The world of comicbooks generally revolves around superheroes. We don't engage ourselves in comicbooks because of the civilians they happen to resque.

[mikekerr3]

And why's that? Because you have no trust in the government and the legal system? What about our police force? Should they be a self-governing organization with secret identities? In comicbooks aswell as in the real world?


If the government was even a honest as ours, trust would be possible. This a government that planed genocide a couple of times, put Lazar in charge of O.N.E and thinks Gyrich and Osborn are suitable civil servants. The government in the MU is not trustworthy.

[Exo]

If the government was even a honest as ours, trust would be possible.

And how would you know for a fact what's happening inside the government? You're opinion may change had you the insight of what transpires in the real world as much as you do in the comics.

[Alan2099]

This is turning inot a generic arguement of the legal system and the role of superheroes again. Let's keep the focus on the four basic characters that were started with.

[Mark_S]

If the government was even a honest as ours, trust would be possible. This a government that planed genocide a couple of times, put Lazar in charge of O.N.E and thinks Gyrich and Osborn are suitable civil servants. The government in the MU is not trustworthy.

I think this says more about the writer's opinion of the current government than anything else.

Mark_S

[Arilou]

This is turning inot a generic arguement of the legal system and the role of superheroes again. Let's keep the focus on the four basic characters that were started with.

Basically Stark has aspects of Magneto (the well-intentioned extremist) and Doom (the cold, engineer-like manipulator) but he is far less selfish and far less ruthless than either of them.

[Eclips0]

And how would you know for a fact what's happening inside the government? You're opinion may change had you the insight of what transpires in the real world as much as you do in the comics.

They support wire tapping and torture, I think we know what we need to.

[Eclips0]

Basically Stark has aspects of Magneto (the well-intentioned extremist) and Doom (the cold, engineer-like manipulator) but he is far less selfish and far less ruthless than either of them.

I think he is just as selfish with his may way or else mentality and just as ruthless when he steals DNA to make Clone that commit murder for him amoung his other crimes.

[Exo]

They support wire tapping and torture, I think we know what we need to.

That's just the tip of the iceberg.

[Arilou]

I think he is just as selfish with his may way or else mentality and just as ruthless when he steals DNA to make Clone that commit murder for him amoung his other crimes.

Again. You are confusing selfishness with arrogance. Saying "My way is the right way" Isn't selfish: Well, at least not NECCESSARILY selfish. You can be a perfectly arrogant prick and still be acting out of altruism.

*That word doesen't mean what you think it does*.

[Eclips0]

That's just the tip of the iceberg.

Exactly, so why should they be trusted? And the MU government has done worse.

And still, Tony's ways are very comparable to Mags and Doom. He is a fallen hero at best and a villain at worst.

[Exo]

And still, Tony's ways are very comparable to Mags and Doom.

No. Tony's working within the system. Mags and Doom would never submit themselves to the US government.

[Eclips0]

The US Government is not opposing the SHRA, Tony has no need to work outside it.

And Doom is the legitimte ruler of his country, he is the system.

[Exo]

And Doom is the legitimte ruler of his country, he is the system.

Another striking difference between Tony and Doom.

[Eclips0]

For now. But in both cases they think their way is the right one and the only right one and anyone who does not agree with them is an enemy.

[Tobias Drake]

For now. But in both cases they think their way is the right one and the only right one and anyone who does not agree with them is an enemy.

In Stark's case, it's more "Anyone who breaks the law is an enemy".

[Exo]

For now. But in both cases they think their way is the right one and the only right one and anyone who does not agree with them is an enemy.

He does what he thinks is right, but his end-plan was the compromise he helped form with the government and the people. This was it. It's not his first step towards world domination.

[Eclips0]

An unjust law.

And how about stealing someones DNA to make a killer clone out of them?

Sounds very Doctor Doomish to me.

[Eclips0]

He does what he thinks is right, but his end-plan was the compromise he helped form with the government and the people. This was it. It's not his first step towards world domination.

Doom believes he is doing whats best for his people.

The thing about villians is they think they are doing whats right. most villains don;t think of themselves as evil.

[Tobias Drake]

An unjust law.

And how about stealing someones DNA to make a killer clone out of them?

Sounds very Doctor Doomish to me.

Take it up with Reed and Pym. They made the clone.

[Mark_S]

In Stark's case, it's more "Anyone who breaks the law is an enemy".

Yea, Tony has always been such a great law and order guy.

Mark_S

[Exo]

An unjust law.

The new law doesn't favor Tony Stark. And in Latveria, Doom is law.

And how about stealing someones DNA to make a killer clone out of them?

He didn't wish for a killer clone. That's squarely Reed's mistake.

[Tobias Drake]

Ooh, and let's not forget he gave Doc Samson the ability to remove him from power if he was deemed emotionally unstable. Has Doom ever given any of his people such authority?

[Exo]

Doom believes he is doing whats best for his people.

Yeah? Well so does Spiderman. And the Hulk. Every one of them are doing what they believe is right.

[Eclips0]

Take it up with Reed and Pym. They made the clone.

Tony stole the DNA. he is responsible.

Tony's tactics are very similar to Dooms and Mags. He crosses lines when he wants to get what he wants.

[Exo]

Tony stole the DNA. he is responsible.

Tony's tactics are very similar to Dooms and Mags. He crosses lines when he wants to get what he wants.

There's no end to the repetitions. :rolleyes:

[Eclips0]

Yeah? Well so does Spiderman. And the Hulk. Every one of them are doing what they believe is right.

They don't commit crimes or set out to hurt or kill people though. Except with the Hulk who also is not a hero.

[Eclips0]

There's no end to the repetitions. :rolleyes:

Grow up and debate like an adult, childish comments like that only detract from the debate.

[Exo]

They don't commit crimes or set out to hurt

Yeah they do.

or kill people though.

Neither does Stark.

[Eclips0]

Starks actions caused many deaths and no they do not, they try nto to hurt people or commit crimes if they can help it. Again you havre to understadn that they deal with threats far and above what we could imagine facing.

[Exo]

Grow up and debate like an adult, childish comments like that only detract from the debate.

I've already repeated myself twice in responce to you:

No he violated Thor's memory as everyone thought he was dead. The homicidal aspect was Reeds contribution.


And just recently:

He didn't wish for a killer clone. That's squarely Reed's mistake.

Yet you keep repeating yourself. Bottom line is: Is Tony Stark responsible for cloning Thor? Yes. Was it his fault the clone turned manic? No. Was it his intention on cloning a killer? Hell no.

[Arilou]

Starks actions caused many deaths and no they do not, they try nto to hurt people or commit crimes if they can help it. Again you havre to understadn that they deal with threats far and above what we could imagine facing.

The bolded statement applies equally well to Tony Stark. The debate is whether or not he was right in his assessment.

And of course, Tony deals with even greater threats than Spidey.

[Eclips0]

I've already repeated myself twice in responce to you:



And just recently:



Yet you keep repeating yourself. Bottom line is: Is Tony Stark responsible for cloning Thor? Yes. Was it his fault the clone turned manic? No. Was it his intention on cloning a killer? Hell no.

No but he did violate Thor by stealing DNA and he is responsible for the events that followed his action. I he had not stolen the DNA, the killer clone could never have been created.

[Exo]

Starks actions caused many deaths

Where did this happen?

and no they do not, they try nto to hurt people or commit crimes if they can help it

Sure they won't commit crimes if they can help it. But they do so that they may hurt people (the bad guys).

[Eclips0]

The bolded statement applies equally well to Tony Stark. The debate is whether or not he was right in his assessment.

And of course, Tony deals with even greater threats than Spidey.

Tony did not have the commit the crimes he did and the heroes were not a threat.

[Exo]

No but he did violate Thor by stealing DNA and he is responsible for the events that followed his action. I he had not stolen the DNA, the killer clone could never have been created.

Yeah but Tony's not Doomish, the topic of this debate. Doom (or even Gyrich) would clone 100 Thors with every intention on turning them into killers.

[Eclips0]

Where did this happen?



Sure they won't commit crimes if they can help it. But they do so that they may hurt people (the bad guys).

That has already been adressed, why can people not read over a thread before bringing up old points? I don't mean to sound rude there it just frustrates me to have state the same info over and over again.

And the heroes aren't bad guys.

[Arilou]

Tony did not have the commit the crimes he did and the heroes were not a threat.

Slightly disagree with the first statement and completely with the second.

[Eclips0]

Yeah but Tony's not Doomish, the topic of this debate. Doom (or even Gyrich) would clone 100 Thors with every intention on turning them into killers.

And how do you know Tony wouldn't? he crossed many lines in enforcing his plan.

[Eclips0]

Slightly disagree with the first statement and completely with the second.

Thats your opinion and I respect that.

[Exo]

That has already been adressed, why can people not read over a thread before bringing up old points?

I'm lazy alright? And instead of reading through this thread, I'll just retort that Cap's equally responsible for the death of 53 people during the prison break.

[Eclips0]

I'm lazy alright? And instead of reading through this thread, I'll just retort that Cap's equally responsible for the death of 53 people during the prison break.

If your lazy then don't blame me when I tell you that something has already been addressed.

And no, Cap was trying to free people that were unjustly imprisoned.

[Exo]

And how do you know Tony wouldn't?

Because he didn't. Also his speech and thought bubbles during this motivates me and my argument.

[Arilou]

And how do you know Tony wouldn't? he crossed many lines in enforcing his plan.

Slippery slope fallacy.

How do you know Captain America won't take over the world and kill everyone? He once SHOT A NAZI!

[Eclips0]

The only reason we think that is because his side won, if he had lost that could very well have been a second option.

[Exo]

If your lazy then don't blame me when I tell you that something has already been addressed.

It's Christmas. A time for forgivness.

And no, Cap was trying to free people that were unjustly imprisoned.

It wasn't just that. He also knew Tony & Co were there waiting for him. He purposely looked for a fight with them that resulted with 50 civilians dead.

[Eclips0]

Slippery slope fallacy.

How do you know Captain America won't take over the world and kill everyone? He once SHOT A NAZI!

And shooting a Nazi makes him a potential tyrant how?

[Eclips0]

It's Christmas. A time for forgivness.



It wasn't just that. He also knew Tony & Co were there waiting for him. He purposely looked for a fight with them that resulted with 50 civilians dead.

It's not his fault those civilians were their and it seemed like Tony knew as well and he is the one who had the civilians there. So I see it as his fault.

[Arilou]

And shooting a Nazi makes him a potential tyrant how?

Precisely.

[Arilou]

And shooting a Nazi makes him a potential tyrant how?

Precisely.

[stelok]

I just have a quick question for people that still consider Ironman a heroic character, well, maybe not a quick question.

What is your opinion of Magneto, Dr. Doom, and Punisher, both individually and as compared to Ironman?

Better compare Iron Man, in terms of heroic character with the other Avengers like Hank Pym, Thor, Scarlet Witch, Wonder Man, and Vision instead of the bad guys.

Ironically, several Avengers are their own enemies.

Scarlet Witch killed Hawkeye, Scott Lang and Jack of Hearts and tried to warp the reality.

Quicksilver recently went AWOL and becoming like his father for his cold behavior during trying to use Terrigen crystals to restore mutants' powers.

Thor, under delusions of grandeur, tried to take over the world and became a tyrant.

Hank Pym went berserk and abused his wife.

Wonder Man had gone into a berserker rage, killed a gangster and beat the other Avengers.

Thunderstrike went crazy and battled the Avengers until he got killed.

Vision tried to take over the computers all around the world for the goal of world peace.

[Arilou]

And shooting a Nazi makes him a potential tyrant how?

Precisely.

That X does Y does not mean X will also do Z.

Which is where your argument falls like a house of cards.

[mindcrime]

That has already been adressed, why can people not read over a thread before bringing up old points? I don't mean to sound rude there it just frustrates me to have state the same info over and over again.

And the heroes aren't bad guys.



see, now thats the reason i stopped debating this stuff over on marvel. it was just the same stuff, over & over again. i understand what you are saying. we are on differant sides on this, & its gotten to the point were we are just agreeing to disagree, which is fine. but when it gets to the point where im just repeating myself, thats usually when i give up.

[Exo]

It's not his fault those civilians were their

But it's entirely his fault the fight spilled out on the streets of NY.

Tony knew as well and he is the one who had the civilians there.


Now you're being silly.

[Eclips0]

No I'm not Tony is the one who put them in danger in the first place.

And yes I do know Doom is not 100% perfect as a comparasion but in Marvel he's close to it.

I suppose he could also be compared to the High Evolutionary.

But the most perfect match for Tony would be: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Londo_Mollari
http://worldsofjms.com/b5/characters/londo.htm

[Alan2099]

No. Tony's working within the system. Mags and Doom would never submit themselves to the US government.

Neither of them is a US citizen and Dr. Doom has his own set of laws he personally creates. Why would they?

[Exo]

No I'm not Tony is the one who put them in danger in the first place.

No, he did everything by the book. His plan was to catch the enemy while attempting to free the prisoners. He did not know that skrull Pym was on scene and had already released the prisoners. Either way, with the fight breaking out and the portal to the baxter building closing in, they still had seconds before they'd all be trapped in 42 and thus had Cloak hastly teleport everyone back to NY. The fight spilled out broke and 50 people got killed. That number would have seen an increase hadn't Tony taken damage control.

Now from Cap's perspective: He knows he's walking into a trap, he knows the prisoners are set free, he knows Tygra is a spy and he knows he can't reach the portal in time. So what does he do prior of entering the 42? Did he concieve a new escape plan? Hell no, he just picks a fight that spreads like wildfire.

And yes I do know Doom is not 100% perfect as a comparasion but in Marvel he's close to it.

The term "close" is in the eye of the beholder.

I suppose he could also be compared to the High Evolutionary.

Exactly.

[Exo]

Neither of them is a US citizen and Dr. Doom has his own set of laws he personally creates. Why would they?

Would Doom work with the pre-elected Latverian government? Of course not, he's Doom.

[Eclips0]

No, he did everything by the book. His plan was to catch the enemy while attempting to free the prisoners. He did not know that skrull Pym was on scene and had already released the prisoners. Either way, with the fight breaking out and the portal to the baxter building closing in, they still had seconds before they'd all be trapped in 42 and thus had Cloak hastly teleport everyone back to NY. The fight spilled out broke and 50 people got killed. That number would have seen an increase hadn't Tony taken damage control.

Now from Cap's perspective: He knows he's walking into a trap, he knows the prisoners are set free, he knows Tygra is a spy and he knows he can't reach the portal in time. So what does he do prior of entering the 42? Did he concieve a new escape plan? Hell no, he just picks a fight that spreads like wildfire.



The term "close" is in the eye of the beholder.



Exactly.

If Tony knew that Cap was doing this, he should've gotten the civilians and non metas out, Cap probably assumed Tony would do this.

And would you call the Evolutionary a Hero?

[Exo]

If Tony knew that Cap was doing this, he should've gotten the civilians and non metas out, Cap probably assumed Tony would do this.

Here's how Tony planned it:

With the resistance (unbeknownst to them) walking into a trap, outnumbered, the teleporter Cloak already confined to a cell and the portals closing in, Tony would clearly have had the situation in his control.

Cap had, knowing that it was a trap, the upperhand and yet he let the coming mayhem ensue. There was no escape plan in his mind only to beat Tony and his men.

[Eclips0]

Tony still knew something could go wrong and he should've been responsible enough to get the people out that could be hurt.

[bethanycabe69]

Tony/Iron Man have been around for quite awhile. In both identities, much more good has been done than bad. I very much agree with Mindcrime, that it has been sh*&ty writing and editor-in-chief"ing" that has led to when he /they do the bad things over the years. So direct your hate for TS/IM at the writers and Joe Q, not the character(s) This especially includes you eclips0!:mad:

[Mark_S]

Because he didn't. Also his speech and thought bubbles during this motivates me and my argument.

But wasn't the very point of the sra was that the government was being pro-active against the heroes for the wrongs they might someday do? So if Tony entertained the possibility of cloning an army of Clors-not actually did it just thought about it and maybe scribbled down some equations-and the government found out about it, wouldn't the government have the right to go after Tony in this new pro-active stance?

Mark_S

[Exo]

Tony still knew something could go wrong and he should've been responsible enough to get the people out that could be hurt.

Maybe he thought that with Cap, things would never go so bad that he'd knowingly endanger the lives of civilians.

[Eclips0]

Still it is his responsiblity to keep them safe and out of unecessary harm and he failed in that and other aspects.

[Mark_S]

Tony/Iron Man have been around for quite awhile. In both identities, much more good has been done than bad. I very much agree with Mindcrime, that it has been sh*&ty writing and editor-in-chief"ing" that has led to when he /they do the bad things over the years. So direct your hate for TS/IM at the writers and Joe Q, not the character(s) This especially includes you eclips0!:mad:

Which probably won't bother them too much. I think that they revel in fan anger.

Mark_S

[bulbasteve]

Tony still knew something could go wrong and he should've been responsible enough to get the people out that could be hurt.

Out of where exactly? The people that died were in the streets of new york city...the portal itself led to the baxter building from 42, one of most secure places on earth. I guess Tony is just too darn trusting to think that they wouldn't bring the fight to civilians and leave it in the prison (where we saw no people mind you), or if worst came to worst, the baxter building.

[Exo]

So if Tony entertained the possibility of cloning an army of Clors-not actually did it just thought about it and maybe scribbled down some equations-and the government found out about it, wouldn't the government have the right to go after Tony in this new pro-active stance?

You must know that the government had to know about codename lightning (SHIELD did). As for Tony thinking about cloning an army of Clors, there hasn't been a clue in the books that supports this. The idea was to have the thundergod on their side as a means to scare the resistance into signing up.

[bethanycabe69]

Which probably won't bother them too much. I think that they revel in fan anger.

Mark_S


Then at their next appearance at a Con, someone kick them HARD in the groin!:D

[Eclips0]

If Tony thought that they could be in danger then yes he should've cleared the area once they entered New York. Cap and his crew were attacked at every turn, it is Tony's fault that things escalated to that point.

[Tobias Drake]

Then at their next appearance at a Con, someone kick them HARD in the groin!:D

I think someone did. Joe Q retaliated with One More Day. :p

[Exo]

If Tony thought that they could be in danger then yes he should've cleared the area once they entered New York.

He did issue a full evac when they dropped onto the streets, but the damage was probably already made.

[Eclips0]

Then he should've stopped the fight and let Cap go and go after him in a place where people couldn't be hurt.

On a side note, does anyone know if JMS had anything to do with CW or this new Iron Man?

[bethanycabe69]

I think someone did. Joe Q retaliated with One More Day. :p

I guess the next step is castration then!:evilsmile

[Exo]

Then he should've stopped the fight and let Cap go and go after him in a place where people couldn't be hurt.

I bet you'd say the same about every other superhuman fight that risked the lives of civilians. Just give up, let the bad guy run and fight some other day. With that logic, the supervillains should always have hostages around just incase.

[Iron_Stark]

Magneto is more of a hero than Iron Man.

Victor and Tony are on par.

Frank and Tony are both fascists, but at least Frank has his metaphorical heart in the right place. Also, his literal heart works a lot better.

Lets see:

is a terrorists - check
willing to kill innocents including women and children for their beliefs - check
hates the US government - check

Now who could I be talking about Magneto or Osama Bin Laden?

So I guess you also think Osama Bin Laden is also a hero?

Magneto is no hero! He's a terrorist piece of **** like Bin Laden

[Eclips0]

Thats different, Cap and his guys aren't villians, letting villains go endangers people. Letting Heroes go to settle their difference another time endangers no one.

[Camron Amaya]

*changes my avy in support of the Iron One*

[Mark_S]

If Tony thought that they could be in danger then yes he should've cleared the area once they entered New York. Cap and his crew were attacked at every turn, it is Tony's fault that things escalated to that point.

The main problem was that Cap could only go where the writers wanted him to go, and they wanted that big battle. Cap was meant to loose, the writers never thought of anything else so no other alternatives were even hinted at. The writers wanted Cap to loose and loose big, they figured that loss would solve everything. Like so much else in cw it was just bad writing.

Mark_S

[Tobias Drake]

Thats different, Cap and his guys aren't villians, letting villains go endangers people. Letting Heroes go to settle their difference another time endangers no one.

From a legal standpoint, how do you make any difference between the two? Where is the legal dividing line between "hero" and "villain"? You cannot say "These people break the law, and we arrest them, but these other people break the law and we just let it happen because it's convenient to us". Under the law, no one group can be given special privilege to break the law as they see fit simply because we like them better.

So no, "they're not villains" doesn't cut it. The Initiative gives us a legal dividing line. Those on the other side of it are no less criminals than any other villain, from a legal standpoint.

[Exo]

Thats different, Cap and his guys aren't villians.

And yet innocent people died when they didn't have to. Human Torch and Spiderman wanted to continue fighting (motivating with that their side was winning). Reckless behaviour. Just reckless.

I know they aren't villains, but the MU isn't that black and white anymore.

[Mark_S]

You must know that the government had to know about codename lightning (SHIELD did). As for Tony thinking about cloning an army of Clors, there hasn't been a clue in the books that supports this. The idea was to have the thundergod on their side as a means to scare the resistance into signing up.

Well that makes sense, I mean superheros are such easily scared people.

But we only know about the one Clor, who is to say Tony doesn't have a factory making them somewhere? Isn't it the stance of this new government law that they can go after any superhero for something they might do in the future?

Mark_S

[Mark_S]

From a legal standpoint, how do you make any difference between the two? Where is the legal dividing line between "hero" and "villain"? You cannot say "These people break the law, and we arrest them, but these other people break the law and we just let it happen because it's convenient to us". Under the law, no one group can be given special privilege to break the law as they see fit simply because we like them better.

So no, "they're not villains" doesn't cut it. The Initiative gives us a legal dividing line. Those on the other side of it are no less criminals than any other villain, from a legal standpoint.

And yet at least one person in the Initiative is cloning, something that is illeagal. Where does your law stand on that?

Mark_S

[Eclips0]

From a legal standpoint, how do you make any difference between the two? Where is the legal dividing line between "hero" and "villain"? You cannot say "These people break the law, and we arrest them, but these other people break the law and we just let it happen because it's convenient to us". Under the law, no one group can be given special privilege to break the law as they see fit simply because we like them better.

So no, "they're not villains" doesn't cut it. The Initiative gives us a legal dividing line. Those on the other side of it are no less criminals than any other villain, from a legal standpoint.

Yes it does, if they let Kang go then they know he is going to hurt innocent people. If they let Cap go then they know he is not.

[Mark_S]

And yet innocent people died when they didn't have to. Human Torch and Spiderman wanted to continue fighting (motivating with that their side was winning). Reckless behaviour. Just reckless.

I know they aren't villains, but the MU isn't that black and white anymore.

No, it's a dull dingy grey where Mephisto laughs at the hell on Earth.

Mark_S

[Tobias Drake]

And yet at least one person in the Initiative is cloning, something that is illeagal. Where does your law stand on that?

Mark_S

It stands with the fact that Pym and the Baron are covering it up and hiding it from Stark and S.H.I.E.L.D., and we should all be happy when it blows up in their face.

[Exo]

Well that makes sense, I mean superheros are such easily scared people.

They were scared ****less when Clor showed up. Admit it, so were you. ;)

But we only know about the one Clor, who is to say Tony doesn't have a factory making them somewhere? Isn't it the stance of this new government law that they can go after any superhero for something they might do in the future?


Sure they can if they have a reason to but, honestly, if anyone is planning on making more clones it's the government. Tony's way past clones (said clones were stupid in Fallen Son #5). But because a factory hasn't been shown in any of the books doesn't mean it does not/will not exist in the future. Still, we can't use the unknown to motivate our arguments. Let's stick with what we do know.

[bulbasteve]

If Tony thought that they could be in danger then yes he should've cleared the area once they entered New York. Cap and his crew were attacked at every turn, it is Tony's fault that things escalated to that point.

Ahem let me quote: "Iron Man to all points: evacuate the area and contain the fight to midtown! I want no civilian casualties! You hear me? No civilian casualties!". He says this the MOMENT he touches down in CW7.

I'm not sure how much more clear Tony could have been...maybe if you guys actually paid attention to the books you would be for registration :p

[Eclips0]

If he wasn't sure that civilians were safe he should've ended the fight.

[bulbasteve]

If he wasn't sure that civilians were safe he should've ended the fight.

when he says out loud to help evacuate the area Torch comes behind him and tries to fry him. In fact the whole time he was pretty much just standing still and picking off people trying to attack HIM.

I don't think it is at all childish to expect someone to look up the stuff they are talking about before claiming things. We have to go over the same stuff again and again simply because people post stuff without bothering to do the research before hand.

[Eclips0]

I have done the research.

And what Tony should've done was call off his forces and settle the fight at a later time when people were not in danger.

[Exo]

If he wasn't sure that civilians were safe he should've ended the fight.

Look. Tony did the best of his abilities to keep damage to a minimum and capture those responsible for starting this mayhem. And regardless of who had the upperhand, Tony like me was very suprised that Cap would choose his vendeta over his people.

[Eclips0]

No the best of his abilities would be to call off the fight and let it be settled another time.

Cap forces were defensive, Tony was the attacker.

[Mark_S]

Sure they can if they have a reason to but, honestly, if anyone is planning on making more clones it's the government. Tony's way past clones (said clones were stupid in Fallen Son #5). But because a factory hasn't been shown in any of the books doesn't mean it does not/will not exist in the future. Still, we can't use the unknown to motivate our arguments. Let's stick with what we do know.

Yes, Tony says no clones now, but once you've crossed that line for a cause it become easier and easier to cross it again when you need to. If you trust Tony then he doesn't have any clones in the oven, if you don't then he's got a factory.

Mark_S

[Alan2099]

Tony did the best of his abilities to keep damage to a minimum and capture those responsible for starting this mayhem.
I don't recall him ever trying to arest himself of SHIELD.

And regardless of who had the upperhand, Tony like me was very suprised that Cap would choose his vendeta over his people.
The same could probably be said otherway around.

[bulbasteve]

I have done the research.

Remember: Tony still knew something could go wrong and he should've been responsible enough to get the people out that could be hurt.

It is only now after we have shown that he did indeed try to get people out that you have changed your argument. Which STILL doesn't work since as I showed the anti-regs who HEARD his order did not follow it and attacked him.

[Exo]

No the best of his abilities would be to call off the fight and let it be settled another time.

I'll just repeat myself:

"I bet you'd say the same about every other superhuman fight that risked the lives of civilians.